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The High Performance Podcast
Mark Webber: The Truth About Vettel, Red Bull and Why I Was Never Their Number One
00:46:10
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- [00:03]
Mark Webber
When you're getting right to the end of a championship, you start to see shadows. You start to see, you know, is he with me or is he not with me? You know, is she with me or what? You know, where are their loyalties really? But ultimately, how good did it feel,
- [00:13]
Interviewer Jake
though, when you said not bad for a number two driver? Did it feel good?
- [00:16]
Mark Webber
Of course, yeah. Well, I had a wonder say it the day before, but, you know, I had to wait another day until I won. This is not lawn bowls, mate. Not anything against people out there play lawn bowls. But there was a lot at stake, and of course, with a lot at stake, there's going to be feathers ruffled every now and again.
- [00:31]
Podcast Host
What does it actually feel like to be the best in the world and still feel like you're being treated as second best? Well, today's guest is Mark Webber, nine time Formula One Grand Prix winner. He got 42 podiums in his career. He became the world endurance champion without question. One of the nicest guys that I met in my time working in Formula one. And as a guy, he is one of the most respected racing drivers of his generation. But you know what makes his story extraordinary? It isn't the trophies, it's how he got them. He had a teammate in Sebastian Vettel who he believed the team favored at every turn, whether that's engines being turned down, new front wings being handed to the other car, a championship slipping away in the final races of the season. You know, it got so bad that Marc did something almost unheard of in Formula One, wrote a private letter directly to the man who ran the entire operation, Dietrich Mateschitz. In this conversation, Mark opens up about all of it. What it took to stay in the fight, how he turned the anger into fuel, why he ended up winning nine Grand Prix and a car some people didn't even want him to drive, and what it really felt like to, in his words, be a number two driver. This is one of my favorite conversations on the show as we welcome two high performance. Mr. Ozzy grit himself the brilliant Mark Webber.
- [01:52]
Mark Webber
When I went to Red Bull Racing, then was the orientation around goals was very clear. We're here to win. If you want to be in this program, this is what we're going to do. And we want to go and we're going to win world championships. And then when you hire the best in the world in key departments, then your recruiting becomes very, very, very easy. But then. Or easier. But then you have to deliver. My God, do you have to deliver? You know, because it's like, we've got everything sorted out. And obviously the boss of Red Bull, Dietrich Buttersch, he did. It's like, you know, there's no excuses now. We have got the Adrian Newey's. We've got, you know, the best people in all the positions. We've got the fastest pit stops in the world, which took time. You know, that took a lot of time. But we are Red Bull racing still to this day are intimidating in the pit lane. Not many teams want to take them on in the pit lane, and that takes a thousand pit stops, practice a year, probably in the. At the factory. And those guys want to be on that car at that time because they want the pressure and the accountability of making sure that pit stop goes smooth. And that sound, again, it's the big little things. It's 1.8 seconds or 2 seconds. Seconds. But if you get it wrong, you know, it's. It's not a great moment. Tell the grandkids.
- [03:00]
Interviewer Jake
So you've arrived at Red Bull, you've had your time at Williams, you're hunting that first win in Formula one. You're hungry for it. You've had to go through all sorts of battles to get to Formula one in the first place. And then you realize that it's not as pure as just driving a car and that it gets political and you're a pawn in the game. I mean, I remember one of the team bosses in my first year in Formula one saying, do you want to come and meet the light bulb? And I said, how do you mean? And he goes, well, that's the driver. As soon as he goes out, we'll screw another one in.
- [03:32]
Mark Webber
Yeah.
- [03:32]
Interviewer Jake
And that. It's a very interesting position then to be in, isn't it? Because when you're a driver In Formula 1, you're everything and nothing. You're right at the center of it, but they can just remove you and there is someone else. There's a queue of them.
- [03:43]
Mark Webber
Oh, yeah.
- [03:43]
Interviewer Jake
Waiting to do it. Do you remember when you first became aware of that side of formula? I guess it probably was at Red Bull that the political element of being a Formula one driver came to the fore.
- [03:53]
Mark Webber
Yeah, I think middle of the field, there is. There is some politics. But when you're at the front going for Grand Prix victories and World Championships, it does become a little bit more prevalent in terms of the. What's at stake in terms of, you know, some of the politics around that. And that could be good for you as well, like equipment and engines and, you know, rules and you know, so it, you know, Red Bull or any team, you've got two teams. So you could say, well, that's political. Cause you've got two teams on the field and they got more votes and, you know, so it's. I would benefit from that. And when it comes to, you know, some of your press positions or your statements, it's like, mate, don't go down that alley because we're doing something else further down the road, which would be assistance to everything else. So you've got to navigate your way through all of those things, whether it's stuff that gets in the public or stuff that.
- [04:39]
Interviewer Jake
Were you equipped for that, for that side of the job?
- [04:43]
Mark Webber
Well, you got to learn fast, mate. Yeah. And obviously I wasn't overly PC, so that was sometimes. Probably wasn't great for me in that sport. I could have been probably a little bit more smoother on basically keeping people happier longer or, you know, putting more effort into the relationships that I found a bit shallow. It's like, well, this is just not. It's not my type of people and I'm not going to put the relationship in there. And that was something that I probably could have been better at, but I still to this day feel happy with. That's how I handle it because that's what type of guy I am. There's a lot at stake here and you sort of find out that, yeah, we're right at the arrowhead of this juggernaut of a business. It is huge. And yeah, you are not a light bulb, but you are nearly, nearly a light bulb, mate.
- [05:24]
Interviewer Jake
So when you do things like, did you say good job, we're not designing planes or something about the red bullet,
- [05:29]
Mark Webber
we don't design helicopters. Yeah.
- [05:31]
Interviewer Jake
Because it get breaking down. And you were base insinuating if this was a helicopter that broke down, it would be a serious problem.
- [05:37]
Mark Webber
Yeah.
- [05:37]
Interviewer Jake
How did that kind of thing get
- [05:39]
Mark Webber
dealt with internally with racing drivers? Adrenaline, obviously, it's very, very high, obviously, when driving the cars. And there's a lot of things that we say, of course, in the heat of the moment, which you like. And the list goes on. All of us guys that had careers that you could pull out a catalogue of punchy statements on the radio, which you probably might not have foreseen being the best thing to say at that time, but you put so much in and you can see that other teams, in this case, for example, if other teams are super reliable and again back to that word, consistent, then you've got a car that is incredibly unreliable and not dangerous. But parts failing and things like this, like. Well, yeah, and because I know a little bit about aviation, it's like, well, how do we get it right in aviation? But in this stuff we can't because obviously these are virtually prototype cars anyway. And there's a lot more risk in design and concept, of course. But yeah, so there has been absolutely several moments where I've been hard on staff or you've called someone out and sometimes it can be irreparable, sometimes the relationships, it can be really cutting and, and it might not have gone down well, but you get, you could get called in on something like that and say, look mate, you know, that's obviously that one line has affected 300 people and that wasn't clever, you know, so then you've got obviously retracting. So, you know, because of course when you're in the car, as I say, you say things which, you know, you get the frustration levels, it's that.
- [06:55]
Interviewer Jake
But it's from a desire to win though, isn't it?
- [06:56]
Interviewer Damien
That's the.
- [06:57]
Mark Webber
Of course. And you have this flash moment of whether it's a, you know, 50, 50 tackle, you know, whether it's, you know, we're seeing football, don't we? You know, guys, just this rash decision, just rush of blood and in our turn, we can't do that. We're, we're, we can't move anywhere strapped into that car. The only thing we, we can talk, we can just shout something at random, which we often do.
- [07:22]
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- [07:48]
Mark Webber
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- [07:52]
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- [08:29]
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- [08:52]
Interviewer Jake
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- [08:54]
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- [09:15]
Interviewer Damien
So would you give us an example of a specific time where you'd said something that in hindsight you were sorry you'd said it and how did you repair it?
- [09:21]
Mark Webber
Yeah, it would have been definitely at a mechanic or something around you know, pit stops or personally calling someone out for being you know, massively subpar. Right. And you, you can be hastily in your, in. In that after a race and you can go and find them and you can call them out and obviously and then of course you get to it and you that there's always a little bit of a background to why that was a sub. Sub poor performance or something happened for them on that day to, for that to have happened. So yeah of course you cool down. There is a cooling down period and you, and you and you know, but as long as it's you know, not a repeated, you know. Yeah you can live with you know if it's, if it's got, it's a one off, you know and you just like sometimes it's the other way. You know, you go on there and like saying guys, you give an encouragement, you know if someone actually has a weird, weirdly abnorma mistake or something you're like this is that's unlike him or unlike her. That's really strange. And then it's like, you know, and then you would go to them and I would say that as an opportunity to absolutely give encouragement that you know, if the consistency has been phenomenal and you have this little wobble go there and say look, got your back, all good. Form cards phenomenal. All good. You know because again why, because they're, they're so. It's got so much pride in their work, you know, and for them to have a wobble is. It hurts them, you know, and they are the characters you want.
- [10:43]
Interviewer Jake
There's something magical, though, from the outside looking in at the Red Bull culture, like, we were all quite jealous of it because it looked like everyone was having a party. It was brilliant all the time. I know, and we can probably talk about them. There are some elements of it that are not fantastic, but there was something that they did that was totally different to the rest of the whole Formula one paddock. And I just wonder what. What it was like being involved in that culture of the whole Red Bull brand and how much that was kind of inspiring for you to see. Someone like Dietrich Mateschitz is a great example. Look what he's built, that empire that he's created at Red Bull, for you to see that and to feel you're part of it.
- [11:17]
Mark Webber
I think the freshness, mate, the freshness was great. I think there was one year. I mean, this is probably going to be a horrendous misquote, but there was something around the amount of tens of thousands of hours that were done, extra hours in one year, unpaid. So people didn't get paid for that work, but they were just. They just loved their work and they loved going to work and they loved, you know, because we were the underdogs initially, as, you know, mate, and we wanted to, you know, ruffle some feathers. And that was the attitude within the team. We are going to ultimately, at some point, we're going to beat all these guys, Ferrari, all these huge names. And that was where the spring and the step come from, because we're like, okay. And that was the recruitment and that was like, you know, this is the goal and these are the individuals we want. And the. The mean line of the age was pretty low, I think, in terms of, you know, so the. The trust and then in building that belief with inside those young individuals was great. But you're right, mate, from the top, you know, Dietrich would come to one race a year, probably, so not many, but I think just, you know, under the, you know, for example, like Jonathan Wheatley, who's the team manager, doing all the pit stops and sort of, you know, he's, you know, the standards with inside the car preparation. Sometimes I'd come back, my wife's a Manchester United fan, so we go at Old Trafford and we're driving home and I'd, you know, super late, and I'd get some takeaway pizzas, 30 takeaway pizzas or 20 takeaway pizzas in January and February is when they're racing, they're getting their cars ready for the new season. I'd go in and to have at the time probably one of the, one of. One of. Not the. But one of the highest paid members of staff but come in with the pizzas and just said that mate, I didn't see it. It wasn't like, you know, I'm better than them. These guys are the absolute warriors of our team. They're there at 1:00 clock in the morning preparing these cars, go in and just. They come alive, you know, it's just, it was just brilliant for me and I left there and answered. You could hardly sleep. Coming back to saying that they're up there preparing these cars with meticulous passion and enthusiasm. And the buying from home too, mate, you know, like as obviously, you know, often of course they're all in relationships and you know that this is. There's a lot of trust and buy in at home on them working those sort of hours. So that was extremely enjoyable. Something I've never really well have sort of experienced since. But when you get that level of trust inside a team it's fantastic.
- [13:37]
Interviewer Damien
So when you go in and you see these guys sort of working in the wee small hours and did it add to the weight of responsibility that you had as the arrowhead of the team or did it inspire you?
- [13:48]
Mark Webber
Yeah, it was. I mean I know this is a line that's been used from other sports people but you know, the pressure is the privilege. Obviously. It's sort of like, you know when you turn up and you know, you walk into the garage. So you've. I've seen the journey this car's gone on and the deadlines and the hours that it's gone into it and you. And you roll down the pit lane for the first time and, and this is God knows how many pieces are in an F1 car. I'm not even trying to guess how many thousands of pieces but this, the, the timeline of all these things arriving at the same time pretty much within a day to then for us to drive the next day. And they're all waiting, they're hanging on every word. They're just waiting for what you want to say about it and what can we do to improve it? They're already, you know, frothing just like what can we do to improve. You know, he's some feedback. It's not going to be perfect out of the box. What can we improve? How's the seat? How's the seat belts, how's the aerodynamics, what are the brakes like? What's the electronics like? You know, what have we got here? What's your view like? Where's the little windscreen, what's the steering? You got all. And it's just like a flood of information. You got these people coming in to try and make your job better because obviously if you're more comfortable and you can give a better performance, of course it's a reflection of their efforts.
- [14:51]
Interviewer Jake
And what did that period teach you about communication? So for people listening to this that are not in Formula one, but actually it makes no odds what sport or business you're in, getting the answers to those questions is what every business wants to be faster and better. And you're involved in other businesses now. So what were your lessons in strong, powerful communication from the Formula one years?
- [15:11]
Mark Webber
Yeah, I think obviously transparency. As fast and as quick as you can be to have the correct lines of communication through to then.
- [15:19]
Interviewer Jake
So would you just give total honesty even if it was a painful thing for someone to hear because that's kind of what you have to do?
- [15:27]
Mark Webber
Yes. I mean, yes, if you can. There might be a way to soften the blow, to try and give the encouragement or not clip their wings too hard and demotivate them. But you're finding that the right way to communicate through the right channels because obviously again it can get, stories can change through big companies. It's like, well there's, and it can be interpreted different ways. So you gotta be really mindful of that I think. But I think, yeah, I think having that, that ability to get into the right channels and know it's going to be spreading to the right individuals in the right way. And that again is down to culture, is the trust of the people underneath. I'm not saying, God, I'm not the boss, but he's saying as a driver because they can take it personal. Of course if you are attacking a part of the business, whether it's as you mentioned, whether it's marketing or whether it's budget control or whether it's whatever it is, social media, whatever, if someone has a negative opinion on how it's, the trajectory looks, then of course that individual naturally can often take it as a, as a bit of an uppercut. But if you take it as it's a two way street here, you know, please, let's both of us what, what can I do to make your job easier? You know, how can I continue to, to, to strive forward? And I think that's transparency is Is important. Deal with it quickly. I mean, you don't let things fester. Gut feel is always pretty big. Gut feel is massive. I think that that's one of my biggest lessons is gut feel is generally
- [16:57]
Interviewer Damien
been pretty right piece of feedback that you've ever given and received that's made the biggest difference to you.
- [17:04]
Mark Webber
You never know who's watching. There's always someone watching that you might not know is watching or watching your attitude or how you behave that can have an influence or you can influence them or it's the positive effect on your attitude day to day. Because you're always sort of like when I was racing, but, you know, this individual said you're sort of now, you're always on show in a way, you know, and you've got to really respect that and, and make sure that you are respectful of, of how you are behaving because people will draw conclusions pretty quickly. So you're in control of all of those things. So, and for me, the best advice that I gave, I think that, I think being true to yourself is important. I think you can, you know, it's very easy now with, you know, with all this social media stuff and this shallow settings that we can have and the delusional fact of where you think you are mentally or what you're up to, the accountability, control in yourself is important and you've got to take ownership and really where you can surround yourself with people that are on your journey and have that belief in you and yes, put you in deep order every now and again because you need to be put out of our comfort zone if you just want to cruise around. I know you've had Ian Thorpe on here, mate, but Ian Thorpe, he just cruised around in the shallow end his whole life. He wouldn't have the career that he had. So I think that, you know, being happy to take the deeper waters when you can with the right people around you and stay present, I think staying present is important. I think, you know, people can take baggage on for the future and really, oh, what's going to happen next November? I'm not sure. Well, if you give 100% today, you know, you're a good chance it's going to be okay.
- [18:44]
Interviewer Jake
What's the challenge though, when you're living in the present is all of the stuff surrounding a formula on driver in the team, though. I mean, Red Bull was a brilliant period for you. That's where all your wins came. You were at the absolute top of your game and there was great stuff there. The challenge was Your teammate, Sebastian Vettel. Can you take us inside what it's like to be in the same team? Everyone's pulling in the same direction, but you are absolutely the most direct competitor of the person who's in the team alongside you. And just how you deal with that, because it's the weirdest thing. Yeah, it's kind of almost unique to Formula one, isn't it?
- [19:15]
Mark Webber
Yeah, horrible, Jake, actually, because I think it's better to have a competitor in another team than obviously, if you. Both of you are firing pretty well. And it was uncharted waters for Red Bull. It's the first time, you know, we'd ever been through it. Yes, individuals had been, you know, in terms of. We had, you know, obviously phenomenal individuals in the team that had seen this play out in other teams, but it's the first time that we had to deal with it in our own team and the first time for me and this first time for Sebastian. So both as drivers, we hadn't. We were both going for our first world title in 2010. So really, really chall from a managing perspective, because you get divide within the organization, it's just really hard for them to contribute evenly across both sides. And keep in mind we had just two small characters like Lewis Hamilton and Alonso also in the fight, so they weren't, you know, easy to handle either. So managing the. The individuals on what you saw, their team and our team, you know, it shouldn't be like that, but as you're saying, it becomes like that. And when you're getting right to the end of a chairmanship, you start to see shadows. You start to see, you know, is he with me or is he not with me? You know, is she with me or what? You know, what's. Where are their loyalties really? You know, it really comes from.
- [20:25]
Interviewer Jake
You're talking about other members of the team.
- [20:26]
Mark Webber
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, other members. Are they really. Are they neutral? Are they really neutral or is it a bit of a bias? Because, personally, mate, it's just human fact that we have biases, we have favorites. That's how we are. You know, we just do gravitate to one or the other in some way. So the challenging thing obviously bit was said was obviously, you know, he was funded by Red Bull from. From an early age. And I wasn't. I was an old dog that was helping the team out at a point where it was like, maybe was I a little bit inconvenient to fighting for that world title? This wasn't really what the playbook was supposed to look like. So that's the crash course on that in terms of how I went deep into the championship. We took it to the last race, as you know. But I think that in the team, keeping the glue of the operation together was. Was certainly extremely challenging. There was a lot of lessons from that, and there was some blowback. There were some people that left, people that weren't happy with. Somehow things were handled and tensions went very, very high.
- [21:28]
Interviewer Jake
I think for people that are listening to this are not Formula One aficionados. Right. Let's just make it clear the sort of things that were going on. I mean, a member of the engine department told you that when you're behind Sebastian, the engines get turned down. Right. So you can't have a crack at him. You only communicate, really, with your own engineer on the pit wall. Chiron, it was, who worked with you. And you ended up talking in code so that if it was a message from the team, you knew it wasn't. That's true, isn't it? You knew it wasn't a message from Kyron. In other words, if it was like a team order, he didn't want to be the one to deliver that message. Sebastian had what he believed was a cracked chassis, or in fact, the team apparently had told him it was a crack chassis.
- [22:04]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [22:05]
Interviewer Jake
To make him feel better about being beaten by you, you then took on the cracked chassis and won the British Grand Prix with it. A new wing came to the team, and there was one wing and two drivers, and he was given the wing.
- [22:16]
Mark Webber
Yeah, yeah.
- [22:18]
Interviewer Jake
When all these things happen again and again and again, and there'll be people listening to this in their own workplace or in their own relationships with people, they feel they're in a kind of a similar position, maybe to you. What. What were the mental tools that you came up with to deal with this? Yeah, massive.
- [22:34]
Mark Webber
Massive.
- [22:35]
Interviewer Jake
And how hard was it? I guess.
- [22:36]
Mark Webber
Yeah, really hard. You know, and that sounds like, oh, poor Mark. You know, you've rattled a lot of stuff off there, mate. But obviously it's. It's the fine. It's really, really fine margins, I think, you know, is. Was there as much in that as I thought, or was there? You know, but ultimately you just sort of feel there could be a little bit of a tide here that you're. So you're slightly going against a couple of knots, you know, like, if there's zero knots over there and you've got a couple of knots of stream against you, like, this is just a little bit harder than it Needs to be. Hey, mate, like I said, I didn't have the, you know, the most talent in the world, but I feel that there was parts of that. Those things that you mentioned, like every now and again, I just thought that. Is that really correct? I'm not.
- [23:13]
Interviewer Jake
So you're having self doubt then as well?
- [23:15]
Mark Webber
Yeah, you're just like. And then that's energy because you're just like, you know, do you have to do a bit of admin in the background and sort of, you know, mop up a bit of stuff and say, is this right is how it is? And you know, so that's. That's challenging. What mental tools do you use? I think that, you know, I turned it into fuel where I could for the fire. Instead of saying, I've just, I just, I just have to continue to do whatever I can to work with the tools. I've got to keep. Keep swinging hard. I've got to just keep going. You know, if I show any signs of, you know, there was. You could argue there were signs of weakness, but in terms of, you know, it was, you know, some of it got out into the media, obviously at the time, what fault weakness on you? You know, like. No, in terms like, you know, not bad for number two driver or for, you know, for the wing stuff or, you know, so there were some explosions, you know, in terms of a bit of a crash at the team. But ultimately.
- [24:03]
Interviewer Jake
How good did it feel, though, when you said not bad for a number two driver? Did it feel good?
- [24:06]
Mark Webber
Of course, yeah. Well, I had a. Want to say it the day before, but, you know, I had to wait another day until I won. But it was. Yeah, it was.
- [24:13]
Interviewer Jake
Did you feel like that? Well, number two driver?
- [24:16]
Mark Webber
Yeah, I was. I mean, that first part of 10, I just felt there was lots of things that were just like, you know, I had led the championship and I'm just like, this is. How is this, you know, give us a sniff, you know, instead of, you know, you know, there was a gearbox penalty in Canada after I won Monaco. And it's like this gearbox penalty. Okay, this is interesting. And then at the end of that race, I caught Sebastian. I couldn't fight him. You know, it's like, well, I had the penalty and now I want to pass him. It's like, no, we've got to call the race off. So anyway, there was, you know, spilled milk, all that whatever, but it's just at that point you just feel a thing. You know, to answer your question, in a corporate setting, if you feel like you're and there can be, of course there can be naturally, there can be politics in the corporate. So we know that, you know, if you feel you're giving the same effort and the same sort of performance and there's someone else that's got some other different lane that they're operating in and sort of seem to be steaming through different sort of challenges you're dealing with, I think that ultimately you will know when enough is enough. Is this correct? Again, back to the gut feel. I was always on single year contracts at Red Bull, you know, which is, you know, again, that wasn't common knowledge for a long time, but until sort of at the end. But it was just like, again, that was. It is what it was, you know, and we had a car at the front. We both were good for each other. So in employment factor, are you good for each other? You serve a purpose in that corporate setting. You know, how cards do you have at the table to negotiate, to change whatever you're not happy about, you know, what can you do to influence to make yourself a little bit happy to perform better in that role? Now, is it financial, is it, you know, best working hours or, you know, whatever it is, or you want some. You report to someone different. You've obviously got to start to tick those off and pick them off tactically, what you feel is best for you, but your gut feel is generally pretty close, in my opinion. And patience, you got to be patient about, you know, hastily calls. I mean, I could have really trashed my own career several times, but I just needed to be a deep breath. Patience.
- [26:03]
Interviewer Jake
And what was the lowest low point for you?
- [26:07]
Mark Webber
I think losing the championship in 10 was really hard. I think that was.
- [26:11]
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Yeah.
- [26:11]
Mark Webber
In Abu Dhabi, you know, and I think, well, it was probably Singapore Monza time where they were just keeping Seb back in the game. And we could have probably Brazil. We could have shut it off even a bit earlier. Could we kept Fernando prepared to take the risk to probably lose it to Fernando and Lewis or lose it to Fernando than have both of us have a smaller chance instead of me having a bigger chance to do it. But that was like.
- [26:35]
Interviewer Jake
You mean they would rather have Fernando have won a race than you?
- [26:38]
Mark Webber
No, the title. The title. Like slim chance for Seb staying in it, then probably we're gonna knock it on the head.
- [26:46]
Interviewer Jake
But allowing the two of you to race and for you to have a real crack at it.
- [26:49]
Mark Webber
Yeah, yeah. So. And that was Brazil. I had a water pressure problem, whatever at the end of the race. Okay, whatever. So it Was. It was what it was. But it's still obviously a talking point and it was a fascinating time in the team's learning curve.
- [27:05]
Interviewer Damien
But can I go back to that where you said, I could have trashed my career several times, but I took a deep breath. I'm really intrigued by that because it must have felt easy to have spoke about your grievances.
- [27:18]
Mark Webber
I think the short fuse factor, mate, is the problem. So that. The short fuse and. And knowing that you've got a big team of people behind you and most of them absolutely have your best interests at heart, but you just. Once it's out in the public environment, it can be hard for you to pull it back in and patch that up. So, of course, the people around me have been good at that in terms of making sure that, look, this is the big picture here. Long game and loyalty. And look, at the end of the day, I'm still with Red Bull. Now. The brand itself has been brilliant. The ocean operations were certainly challenging for us. And in the end, you know, as Jake said, what did you learn to
- [27:52]
Interviewer Damien
get better at it? So what sort of tips did you. Or techniques did you employ to get better at holding your tongue and gaining greater perspective?
- [28:01]
Mark Webber
Yeah, I think just what sort of tightrope you're on as a professional. I think that you realize that there's some big gaps, you know, and you're still relatively young and you just feel, I think you're in such a bubble when you're. When you're a professional athlete, that there's still gonna be infinite opportunities, you know, after that. Right. It's not the case. You gotta like anything. You gotta continue to work hard at any other opportunities, whether it's in your career or post your career. You've gotta really graft and find because there's a lot of seriously good operators out there doing some really good stuff, and they're applying themselves brilliantly. You gotta be a bit clever and say, look, this is fighting for victories. Ultimately, the team environment is still something that I enjoyed. You know, it was still, you know, we had our flashpoints, but it was still something. You're like, you know, be careful. Don't bloody think it's always greener somewhere else. Because it's very, very to be, you know, thinking it is. And, and, you know, and you, you arrive at this new destination, it's like, well, yeah, that, that house looks a bit different. It looks nice on the outside, but there's freaking no furniture.
- [29:02]
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- [31:37]
Interviewer Jake
There was a brilliant moment where you wrote a letter to the team, didn't you?
- [31:40]
Mark Webber
Depends how. Brilliant. Brilliant for who?
- [31:42]
Interviewer Jake
All right.
- [31:43]
Mark Webber
Interesting.
- [31:43]
Interviewer Jake
An interesting, fascinating moment.
- [31:45]
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Yeah.
- [31:45]
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How.
- [31:45]
Interviewer Jake
How was that received?
- [31:46]
Mark Webber
Very good from Dietrich, but horrible at Milton Keynes. Yeah.
- [31:49]
Interviewer Jake
So why would that be, though? Because obviously it was a. It wasn't a public letter. It wasn't shared with 400 members of staff.
- [31:54]
Mark Webber
Yeah.
- [31:55]
Interviewer Jake
It was just given directly to the people where it almost felt like that was one guy. So straight to one person, to the
- [32:01]
Mark Webber
boss who paid my bills.
- [32:03]
Sponsor - Babbel
Yep.
- [32:03]
Interviewer Jake
Why would that be badly? Do you know what I mean by that, Damien? Because it's like all you want is honesty and you want accountability and you want openness and you want truth from the people you employ. I can totally understand if it was, you'd held it up in the pit lane and said, hey, world's media, come and listen to this letter.
- [32:18]
Mark Webber
Wasn't an open letter.
- [32:19]
Interviewer Jake
I can get that. But there were private letter. To be badly received is an interest. It's interesting, isn't it?
- [32:24]
Mark Webber
Yeah. I just think it probably put a bit of heat on people, you know, that were operationally, you know, sort of running the team at the time and just Dietrich wanted answers. Well, I wanted answers, you know.
- [32:33]
Interviewer Damien
So what was the context of the last time?
- [32:35]
Mark Webber
It was just some of the, again, the operations of how I suppose the team was run at the time. And there was some challenging moments again within inter team rivalry. And I just took it upon myself to, you know, write a letter to Dietrich, who's obviously the boss of all of us. He is the boss. And there was one letter that went to Austria and he of course, filtered it back down into senior management and
- [33:01]
Interviewer Jake
they felt undermined, maybe, that you'd gone right to the top.
- [33:03]
Mark Webber
Yep. Well, I'd also played those cards earlier and probably didn't get the answer that I wanted, so I obviously went to the main man.
- [33:09]
Interviewer Jake
And what were you wanting to achieve there?
- [33:11]
Mark Webber
I suppose, mate, I just wanted to have him understand, like, it made me feel better that, like, is this. Is this, you know, can you get better answers than I can? Is that possible? Is there other agendas here? You know, I just need more answers around certain topics. And he did as well in some ways, you know, because people listening to this, well, hang on, he's the boss. He should be across everything. This is a guy that's across, you know, Red Bull's a big organization and the racing component was, yes, a huge facet of the Business, but it was one facet and he's not day to day inside the team. So obviously other people, you know, running that, so that was, he was just bringing them into question to say, you know, do we need to understand this a bit more so. And that didn't go down well, obviously with senior management whatsoever.
- [33:49]
Interviewer Jake
But when you look at your career, the best you drove and the best results and the moment you were at your peak was this period where you had your back against the wall and you felt like a number two driver and you felt like there wasn't equality or fairness. And I think this is a really good reminder for people who are listening to this that what isn't easy for you can still be good for you. And I think maybe, maybe you disagree with this. I think looking at it from the outside, it was good for you to have your back against the wall, as painful as it was at times.
- [34:18]
Mark Webber
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right, mate. I think I did enjoy the odds against me, but I think there was times where I felt like it was, it was too much. Yeah. Sometimes like, oh, I gotta shoulder this a bit more. Okay. That's, you know, nearly too much. And of course it was all on me. It was. No one else could actually shoulder that in terms of, you know, some of the things I had to deal with. But look, mate, I, you know, this is, we know this is not a, a Red Bull slagging. It's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's just talking about, you know, cultures, employment, a member of a team, one member of a huge team. And I'm a better man for, you know, having driven in Formula one, having driven for Red Bull, all the scenarios, I'm, I, I believe I enjoy a good relationship with everyone to this day.
- [35:00]
Interviewer Jake
I think it was good for you. No, like, almost drew the best out of you.
- [35:03]
Mark Webber
Yeah, and absolutely. And it's not like the end of the day, we're not, you know, this is, this is not lawn bowls, mate. Not anything against people out there play lawn balls. But there was a lot at stake. And of course with a lot at stake, there's going to be feathers ruffled every now and again, you know, and I was just had to be part of that. And you know, and people, you know, again, mechanics or engineers or people, they're still, to this day, some of those guys carry that, which is great, which is a good thing because that's how much it meant to all of us, you know, and the fine margins of top flight sport so, you know, sometimes I'm out walking the dogs and I go, you know, mate, look, you come from Queanbeyan. No sponsorship really, whatsoever. Had some good little support here and there along the way for some key individuals, which is pivotal. Flukes and results. When I really needed them. I was the wrong size for F1. I was always nine kilos overweight because I couldn't lose any more weight. I was too tall. And all these things are just like. Well, ultimately, mate, you know, you actually did do okay. You know, it's fine to look back, but you're always. Human nature is. You always want more. Because I remember when I won my first race, that's it. Everyone else had a good day. There was no attrition. It was a fair victory off pole. Brilliant. Absolutely stoked. That's it. Brilliant. And then Monday, you're like, wouldn't two be good?
- [36:12]
Interviewer Jake
Yeah, it's human nature.
- [36:13]
Mark Webber
Yeah. Yeah. And Valentino Rossi sent me one when I did win my second race, he goes, fantastic. Two's a double A1. Yeah, that's human nature. We always want more. So.
- [36:22]
Interviewer Jake
And where are you at with it now, mentally?
- [36:24]
Mark Webber
Very good, mate. Stoked. Very good. You know, more around the people I worked with, the journey I went on, whether it's with travel, whether it's the professional people I worked with, mate, would never, ever have happened if I didn't compete at that level. So I've been absolutely stoked with my career. And perspective, I think, has also been good. You know, we've lost some mates in the racing, which has been tragic, you know, so you get this real, you know, the business side of it. Yeah. The HR side of it. It's actually a very good sport in that sense, in terms of. Of what it gave me. And it continues, you know, you will still go around and people still love. They say, oh, we love watching your race, whether it's Brazil or Spain or. And that's nice, because it's not about. It's a reflection of the sport. It's not a reflection of me as an individual. It's a reflection of. Actually. Car racing is still. People still love watching these gladiators or these. What they perceived as gladiators, things that they can't do. That's what sports should be. I love watching tennis, I love watching football. I'm watching sports, and that's the best of the best. You just know that you can relate to it, but there's absolutely no way in the world that you could ever do it. And that's what my skill in the end, was honed through working with phenomenal people. I'm blessed for that.
- [37:34]
Interviewer Damien
There was a lovely phrase, like my favorite phrase when I was reading about your career, Mark, was a quote from a BBC journalist that said, the best thing about you is that despite all the glamour and the glitz of Formula one and the career that you've had, that you remain completely unaffected by it. You're still the boyfriend from Queen Ben. Yeah, from Queen Ben. How did you keep your feet on the ground, then?
- [37:54]
Mark Webber
The upbringing, I suppose. I think that. I don't know, rural Australia is, You know, it's. It's. You know, I'm not going to throw other. Other people under the bus here, but I think I was just fortunate where I grew up. Look, I have got choices in my life now. Don't get me wrong. I. I can. I can do things differently to. To what I. If I didn't race in Formula One. But I don't take that as, you know, I. I try to be. I just do what I do. And people say, that's. That's nice to see.
- [38:17]
Interviewer Jake
You seem to operate on gut feel quite a lot of the time.
- [38:20]
Mark Webber
Yeah, yeah, whatever. If you're on a flight and someone wants a photo or autograph, you've got no idea what they're going through. No idea. And it's just nice if it takes five seconds. And it's just. If you can stay relatively, you know. Look, I love the simple things in life, mate. I love riding my motorbike now. I love my dogs. And I don't need much at all to make me happy, which is great. I love a little log fire and, you know, a couple of mates. We'll have a couple of whiskies and we're just. I try to keep life pretty uncomplicated. I'm not that complicated because I had complications in terms of. As a professional. You've got to put a lot into it. And that was not easy for relationships. It was not easy for family. It was not easy for that. And people talk about sacrifices is a word that I hate. I made all these sacrifices. Well, for me, it was all upside. People say, oh, you did so well with all these sacrifices. I mean, it's bullshit because you've got to step up. And this is, you know, for me, it was all like. This is all upside, every single thing. If I nail this, it's not a sacrifice. It's like, you know, it was just something that needed to be done.
- [39:21]
Interviewer Jake
But also, it's about living a really interesting life. You know, you didn't have to raise sponsorship and deal with all those sponsors as a young driver to get into F1. You got to. You didn't have to. To deal with all the politics, Williams and Red Bull and in the overall Formula one world, you got to do that. You didn't have to go toe to toe with a world champion.
- [39:43]
Sponsor - Dell
You got to.
- [39:44]
Interviewer Jake
It's about realizing that among all the challenges that exist in life and we can all look at everything in our lives as a challenge or look it all as an opportunity.
- [39:52]
Mark Webber
Yep, that's right, mate. You know, possibilities, not problems in terms of, you know, finding the way to be positive. You know, there's always, as you say, there's currents and little headwinds that come along. That's life. Look, what is wealthy is wealthy money or wealthy with family or wealth. Like, how is wealth measured? But people that have a tremendous amount of finance behind them, you know, there's a lot out there that aren't overly happy with their life, you know, because there's. Whatever it is, they've got, they've got. They've had baggage from the past or wrong decisions or now it's, you know, perceptions or, you know, and there's a lot of cracking individuals that have kicked a lot of goals and they're still true to themselves, which is awesome. So you're right, mate. Having that, just the fullness, the life, the ups and downs, seeing the little uppercuts, getting back up and that makes you feel, you know, feel good and giving back a bit, mate, like, that makes me feel, you know, I've done some stuff in Australia, which I'm proud of, and whether it's building some units for some kids with leukaemia that are rural based, can't have their siblings and family support them because they're from rural areas. And having the units close by, the clinics makes you feel mega. Are we banging the drums about it? No, but that is something where you feel. They're just a little bit. Little snippet of makes me feel good.
- [41:02]
Interviewer Jake
And how happy are you?
- [41:03]
Mark Webber
The recreational component of my life's very important. I love sometimes even being on my own. I'll go on the motorbike for 10 days and just hit the Alps and. Or Scotland or whatever, you know, that makes me feel. I enjoy that, the planning and, you know, I think there's some power in being happy with yourself and just going out and doing those things alone, so. But obviously, Annie and I, we do some great things together and. And yeah, it's enjoyable.
- [41:26]
Interviewer Damien
So can I ask you about Anne. I mean, apart from being a class act because she's a United fan, the bit I'm interested in is that she's been both your manager and your wife.
- [41:37]
Mark Webber
Yep.
- [41:37]
Interviewer Damien
And I'm interested in how you manage that dangerous combo relationship.
- [41:41]
Mark Webber
Dangerous combo, yeah. There's been some testing moments around the commercial situation and the private stuff in terms of just, I mean, stuff that she's encouraging to do. And of course, you know, I mean, we rarely argue. Very rarely do we argue, but sometimes it's around. Not now, because obviously my days are over in terms of. Most of the decisions we make now are fun and we. We're getting to things with our eyes wide open. We enjoy doing that. But like, before it was like, for example, like the Australian Grand Prix, all these are, you know, requests coming in and she's obviously the bad cop to the team and sort of, you know, and I don't want to do this and don't do that and it's like, well, you need to, you know. Yeah. And then it's like all this sudden, you know, flares up and it's like, you know, you're having arguments about, you know, the professional side and how, you know, the brand, you know, what she's been so good on in terms of understanding that and the longevity, you know, after my career of sort of having a good vision and perspective on how that should look. That's been brilliant. But, you know, we're now, crikey, 1996 or something, so it's been a while. Been together and. Yeah, no, she's been brilliant. She didn't take much shit, but, yeah, it's, it's, it's brilliant. And being a good little duo, lean, mean machine. In terms of our opera, our team has been very small for our whole career.
- [42:48]
Interviewer Jake
Was that important to you just to have a very small unit of people you really trust?
- [42:52]
Mark Webber
Yeah, I think so, mate. And also didn't just over complicate things. So we didn't need, you know, I mean, now there's obviously all these experts in life and experts in, you know, in terms of. Yeah, in terms of, you know, with social media and all. Thankfully that wasn't around in, in my time and agencies and all the rest of it, but it's. And you need them. Look, okay, there is, there's, there's, there's, there's this space for some of the. That of course. But, you know, we kept it pretty simple, mate. And it wasn't. Again, it wasn't rocket science, mate. I just drove around circles for a living, you know, and I work with, as I say, the best people and some of the biggest brands in the world and I wanted to over deliver for those people as best I could, you know, as I say, always did what I gave the best performance of myself every single time I tried to work in that environment. And even small things like Blessor, like, you know, when the simulators come online here in the uk, you know, the simulator, we, we did huge hours in those and it was like sometimes like, you know, packing a lunchbox. It was like, you know, like, you know, off to school pretty much, you know, like, you know, big day of work and it's like even down to those little things, it's like, yeah, she was, she was brilliant with that stuff.
- [43:50]
Interviewer Jake
Brilliant. We've reached the point in our interview where we do our quick fire questions. At the end, before we get to them though, do you reflect on everything we've discussed that whole career and think you gave it the absolute maximum every time?
- [44:01]
Mark Webber
Yeah, look, I think that again, back to that. Odd. You want more. What could we have done better? You're, you're more knowledgeable now. In, in many ways ignorance is bliss, you know, naivete is bliss because then you've got the enthusiasm. If you said at the end of your career you're gonna have to do what you're gonna have to do to get like, probably not, you know, it's gonna be, you know, if you don't know what's coming, you just gotta. It makes you have that lust for, for what's down the road. But I think the experience curve against the sort of naivety curve and you're sort of like, you know, if I had more. Yeah, the old.
- [44:28]
Interviewer Jake
Would you change anything if you could go back or do you not operate like that?
- [44:32]
Mark Webber
I think just again, probably more into the details, like I was into the details, but I think sometimes I used to put a bit of a test on myself to say I'll work that out. Not on the fly, but I like to sort of have that instinct and dealing with things not in a reckless way at all and being ridiculous with it, but could I have been more detailed? Maybe, but you know, there was a lot of tools around to get into some of that stuff stuff at the time. Could I have done more with that? But it's only now you see how much they do. But at the time it was in its infancy. So should I have thought more about using different tools and challenge that segment more to help my performance? Could have done, but you know, here's what it was, mate.
- [45:14]
Interviewer Jake
Right then, quick fire questions. What are the three non negotiable behaviors that you and the people around you have to buy into?
- [45:25]
Mark Webber
Timekeeping, consistency and enthusiasm?
- [45:33]
Interviewer Damien
What advice would you give a teenage Mark just starting out?
- [45:37]
Mark Webber
Be truthful to the mirror.
- [45:38]
Interviewer Jake
If you could go back to any point in your life, where would you go and why?
- [45:43]
Mark Webber
Crikey's Jake, that's brutal, mate. You know, I think, you know, driving 2010 like those cars when I was absolutely at peak of my career, that was a beautiful moment.
- [45:54]
Interviewer Damien
How important is legacy to.
- [45:56]
Mark Webber
Not overly important. I think people can look at what you've achieved, but I think that, you know, people will find their own way. There's a lot more important people than whatever my legacy will ever be. So they can look at those legacy instead of mine.
- [46:06]
Interviewer Jake
This is kind of the final message really. People that have listened to this, what would you leave them with as your one golden rule to living a high performance life?
- [46:13]
Mark Webber
Surround yourself with people that continue to get more out of you. It doesn't matter what you've achieved, there's always someone out there, I think that can squeeze a bit more out of you and you can always do that more than you think you can.
- [46:23]
Interviewer Jake
Perfect Mark, thank you very much for your time.
- [46:25]
Mark Webber
No worries,
- [46:29]
Interviewer Jake
Damien.
- [46:30]
Interviewer Damien
Jake.
- [46:31]
Interviewer Jake
It was an interesting chat with Mark, wasn't it? Obviously I was working on Formula one when he was in that real era where things were pretty heated between him and Sebastian Vettel. And to sit there now and hear him talk about it in, in retrospect, I just get the impression that, that it was definitely really difficult for him, probably really difficult for quite a few years. But he almost, as we said to each other as we left, he feels like he's found some freedom, doesn't it?
- [46:59]
Interviewer Damien
Yeah. I think if it's possible to have a lifestyle envy of anyone, I think it was definitely the, the sense of freedom, the liberation that he's got of being happy with what he's done but not resting on his laurels, being in the moment, the now, as he said.
- [47:14]
Interviewer Jake
And you know how I talk about my parents giving us the two important things in life, roots and wings. I think the fact that his mum and dad gave him those roots to Queanbeyan is really important to him because it feels like that is a mad world to go into and to be on a really public stage and to be up against it at the time when you're also at your very best is so difficult. And I do sense that it was a reminder of where he came from that almost kept him sane through that period. And I think that's probably a really healthy thing for all of us just to have in our heads, like, the journey we've been on, rather than getting someone thinking, right, what's next? What's next? It is a really important reminder of, hold on, let's just remember how far I've come. And, you know, like, when you talk about values, you get people that. And we've seen them and we won't name them. They'll come on the podcast and they'll say a certain thing, but you'll see a different behavior from them either before or after the recording. But the reality is we turn up with Mark, who wants a cup of tea. Come on in. He's lit a fire for us. He, you know, that he's a genuine person. And even the way that he kind of talks like he doesn't even pretend to have all the answers, whereas some people are obsessed with having to have the answers all the time. Whereas I think with him, it's just like, this is what I experienced, this is what I feel about it. If it's helpful for some people listening to your podcast, great. If it isn't, sorry, Totally honest and just. It's all out there, isn't it? There's no side to him.
- [48:32]
Mark Webber
Yeah.
- [48:32]
Interviewer Damien
And I think that's where the. That freedom, that liberation comes from, that there's nothing he's hiding. He's just a man completely at peace with himself. And that's where the envy, the lifestyle envy comes from.
- [48:44]
Interviewer Jake
And it's probably a hard one, actually, for him to think about. But I do honestly believe that the fact that he felt that Sebastian Vetter was getting a different service to him, and the fact that the media of the world weren't seeing the true story, and the fact that he had challenges with the management of the team he was racing for, I do honestly think. Think that all of that actually got the best out of him. And I feel that if. If he wasn't in that situation, I wonder whether he would have. He would have fought as hard and then been as successful.
- [49:12]
Interviewer Damien
Well, there's lots of people that we've interviewed that are better as. As challengers rather than being the champions. Being the champion affords you a comfort, a luxury, a lifestyle, whereas when you're the challenger, you striving for it, your back's against the wall. And I think there's some people that do respond to that, and Mark would definitely fit in that category.
- [49:30]
Interviewer Jake
He's a good Honest Aussie, right?
- [49:32]
Interviewer Damien
Yeah. Brilliant bloke.
- [49:35]
Podcast Host
I hope you loved that as much as I did. I mean, I love the fact that Mark pretty much came from, as he said, nowhere, a small town in Australia and made it to the very top of one of the most technically and physically demanding sports on the planet. And I think what stays with me most is that image of him turning up at the ripple factory at one in the morning with 30 pizzas for the mechanics who worked through the night. He understood teamship, he understood culture. He understood exactly where the performance was really coming from. And it was the people around him. It was the culture he was building. It was the trust that he had earned. And if they got you fired up, why not share it with someone that you think needs to hear it? Or maybe you can delve into the high performance archives for so many more Formula One conversations. Until next time, take care of yourself.
- [50:42]
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