← The High Performance Podcast
The High Performance Podcast
Steve McClaren: Inside England’s Golden Generation & Sir Alex’s Man United (E412)
01:49:11
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- [00:05]
Steve McClaren
First press conference. Steve, how does it feel to be the second choice of the next England manager? Whoa. This is one of the saddest days of my career.
- [00:15]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Did you think to yourself, this is. This is me done with England.
- [00:18]
Steve McClaren
You're letting a nation down. That's what upset me. You just had to look at somebody, give you the look, and you went, oh, I'm in trouble. He knew what he needed to do to play. Yeah. Eric wanted more. And I'm thinking, oh, dear, we're in trouble here.
- [00:41]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Well, Steve, you're in the chair for your episode of High Performance.
- [00:46]
Steve McClaren
Thank you for inviting me. I've got to say, I'm delighted to be here because, yeah, you kept me going for two years. That M62 corridor when you were at United. Yeah. From Boston Spa to Manchester. Used to do it every day, six o' clock in the morning. Didn't like music at that stage. You just started the podcast and I thought it was a revelation. I really did. Not just that you guys are here, but constantly listen to every episode. Couldn't wait for the next one because the amount of detail that you got from people has never been released before. Even. I read a lot and read a lot of biographies and books and It's. Yeah, we won 3, 1 and we were top of the league and then the next season we did this. And. But to get really underneath and what is. And I always remember your first question, what is high performance to you? Every morning. And every morning I had a different answer.
- [01:46]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
So what would you say today, then?
- [01:48]
Steve McClaren
Yeah, well, obviously, invite me. I've been thinking about it and after. After seeing quite a few things, just recently, I watched the snooker, I watched McElroy with the Golf, I watched Formula One. It's. I think high performance is delivering, performing the high performance but under pressure. I think that's the key thing Justin was in and talking about, you know, even if you're a kit man, even if you put the cones out, you know, it's a performance and I do it most days. So when I come in, it's. Everything's a performance. So meeting with the staff is a performance, Meeting with the players is a performance. So. And I want to do it at the highest level. So high performance to me is I must prepare for that meeting and preparation is key. So I over prepare. But that over preparation gives me a belief when I walk in that room that I can deliver that, I can deliver that. And real high performance is when you've got the actual courage to deliver it in front of 23 players. Eight staff, 90,000 people, and you're on the side and you've got to deliver a performance in that 95 minutes, which it is. It's all theater, it's all a show, and you have to deliver that. So preparation, belief and courage lead to high performance. And high performance can be any level. Any level. And my three months, just recently, I've been watching lower leagues, non leagues, and there's as much pressure as Saul Marcus at Carlisle against York. This is. You see Mark Hughes on the sideline. There's as much pressure he puts on himself for winning at Carlisle as he did when he was at Stoke in the Premier League. So it doesn't matter what level or what sport. And the key thing for me is that that pressure can lead to mistakes. Yeah. So that's why preparation is key. Ultimate belief in what you, what you are and what you do, and that is small wins that you build up. You get that belief and then it's actual courage to go out and, and deliver that. And I've seen so many mistakes recently. If you saw the snooker, just re. You know, Mark, he has one black to, to go into the final and it's a straight black. I could have done it with my eyes closed. And you missed the black. And Wu, who eventually won it, comes back and, and wins two frames and goes into the final. So it doesn't matter what level, preparation, belief, you can do it. Courage equals high performance when you're under real pressure, if that makes sense.
- [04:54]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Now there will be some high performance aficionados like you listening to this now, saying, Steven McLaren's just said the word pressure 20 times in the first three minutes of this podcast. But I think that's a really, really interesting place to start because performing is one thing. Performing under pressure is something totally, totally different. So can we go to the moment in your career where you either took on a job or had a moment where you were like, okay, now, I thought that was pressure, but this is pressure.
- [05:25]
Steve McClaren
Of course, going to England is the biggest. I always remember going in and first press conference and, you know, I'd been with Sven, I'd been with Manchester United as a manager. So I'd had this. I knew it. But to experience it yourself. And then when you. I always remember going up like this with the microphones, 200 journalists, photographers, TV cameras, and the first question is, and Steve, how does it feel to be the second choice of the next England manager?
- [06:04]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Whoa.
- [06:05]
Steve McClaren
Because I think Scalari had pulled out or something and then whatever. And I went, wow, welcome to the England job and, and I think the noise and, and the media was a part of it, which I'd seen with Sven, I'd seen with, With Sir Alex, and I thought, yeah, but nobody, nobody can prepare you for that moment that you actually. Bang, you're there. And no one had. Took me six months. And I think whatever job I've. I've kind of done, especially going abroad to adapt and to change and to, to whatever culture, environment you've got to get, it's tough. The first six months are hard, really hard. And the first six months in England were really hard. I mean, they had me on the coach and lip reading what I was saying, you know, and, you know, remember Andorra and going. And the crowds and they were booing, they were booing the bus going to the game and I'm thinking, oh, dear, we're in trouble here. And the press after. And I always remember the press after that. We won three nil. And the press and I just delivered a. Yeah, we won. Steven Gerrard was great. Couple of goals and let us. And no questions, gentlemen, that's all I've got. Walked out and that was the change for me. And then I went, right, ignore the noise.
- [07:40]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Is that what you did? You just came in, gave a statement and walked away?
- [07:43]
Steve McClaren
Yeah. When did you.
- [07:45]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Do you remember making the conscious decision that I'm not going to answer questions after this, I'm just going to speak
- [07:49]
Steve McClaren
and go, yeah, I kind of made that decision. I think it was half time coming in, it was nil, nil. Oh, we got the booze of all booze. Yeah. And I remember saying to the players, you know, look, it's. It's my responsibility, you know, and I always think that, that it's my responsibility, you know, you've prepared, you know, got to believe, because you're damn good players now just have the balls and the courage to get out there and do what you do and to be fair to the players. And I remember that, Stephen. And this is always. Someone will always step forward, you know, it's for England. It was either David Beckham, it was Wayne Rooney, it was Michael Owen, it was. Someone would always step forward, Frank Lampard. And this night it was Steven Gerrard just stepped forward and went bump and won the game and. And that was it. And. And I just, I'd made my mind up. I've had enough of this. I am just going to be myself, right, and try and be authentic and just, you know, deliver what I can. And so from that moment on, I decided ignore the noise. Be polite, say, what do you want? But focus on the job, which was winning football matches.
- [09:02]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
And what do you think the difference was then for you as a manager, once you decided to cross that Rubicon and just be authentic, regardless of the noise?
- [09:11]
Steve McClaren
I'd always thought I had been. And you always play, you know, and I always say to many managers now, and the game is theater. It's theater. And if you treat it as a great show and you're part of that show and you don't get too ahead of yourself and think it's just about you and it's just about your team. No, it's the game in general. It's the whole sideshow. It's the whole fans, community, media, press. So, you know, I remember someone saying that to me, you just part the sideshow, Steve. You just part the sideshow. You know, just enjoy it, you know, So I try to do that a little bit more. And that's when, yeah, just be myself a little bit more in front of the cameras instead of, right, I've got three messages to deliver. Right, right. Delivering that, that and that. And sometimes you just got to be yourself. And I think once I kind of relaxed into the job and. And that was from Middlesbrough days. It's great being assistant, but from the Middlesbrough. As soon as I stepped into the number one, it was completely different. No one's prepared you for that. And, you know, Middlesbrough, first four games, no goals, 413 against, no points, pointless, clueless. And I went, I'm not reading any more newspapers after that, and just went focused and got on the job of. What's your job?
- [10:46]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Is there a metaphor to describe the difference? Like, is there a way that for those of us outside of it that we could understand the difference from going from a number two to being a number one?
- [11:00]
Steve McClaren
The only thing I would say is you are as a number two, and you think you contribute and you are contributing because you're questioning all the time and you're asking. So you're suggesting. But that first day in management, you are actually making decisions. What color socks gaffer do we wear on the trip? You know, what T shirt? What color T shirt? What jacket do we need to. To put up? I'm gone. What the.
- [11:33]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
It's like an overwhelm of.
- [11:35]
Steve McClaren
Of. Of questions. Decisions.
- [11:37]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a scratching post for a cat.
- [11:40]
Steve McClaren
Decisions, decisions, decisions. And, you know, I just remember Sir Alex when I left, you know, any advice for me? He said, yeah, he said. He said, don't. Don't seek conflict. You'll get enough of it, it will come to you don't have to go finding it. You'll get it. Sleep. I remember he always said, sleep. Make sure you do that. And decisions. You get seven out of 10 right, you've done really well. He used to get nine out of 10 right. But he said, you get seven out of 10 right, he says, you're doing well, son. I always remember that. So I always remembered, if I do make a decision, don't worry, you know, you're going to get three out of 10 wrong and you're still doing well.
- [12:27]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Sticking with the conversation around England, you learning to deal with that pressure is one thing. You relieving it from the players is another because they would have also been feeling that this is more pressured than Chelsea, more pressured than Arsenal, more pressured than City or Liverpool. So how were you able to also find the mental capacity to remove the pressure from those England players as well?
- [12:48]
Steve McClaren
I don't think we did. Otherwise we'd have done better in tournaments. And I think that was the. The key thing all the way, all the way through, you know. I know.
- [12:56]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Do you know you don't think you managed to relieve that pressure for them?
- [13:01]
Steve McClaren
We tried, yeah. We talked a lot about it. But I think it was very difficult because that's very insular. That's very personal to each player individually. And no matter you, you've got to give that Persona. And I think that's why Gareth was so successful. He had that Persona, that calmness. And Sven was. Was similar. But there seemed to be. There was always a frenzy, even with Sven, always a frenzy with myself. And there's always a. I remember Gareth and we talked about the initial. There was always a frenzy behind that. So there's always going to be that. And players have to deal with it. And players have to, you know, they're England players, they've got to take that pressure on and deliver as they do. And a lot, you know, I've done national team and Jamaica were the same. We used to come to Jamaica and would you play for Jamaica like you play for your club? You know, and I usually say, what you Will you play for England like you play for your club? With that relaxed. And I've spoke to several England players since then and some say, well, within the camp there was, you know, Chelsea, Man United, Liverpool. And there was, yeah, factions of discontent. There never was. There never was. Right. We just couldn't. We couldn't find the balance. And people have asked me, well, we've got a World cup coming up. You know, from my Experience of three tournaments. You know, the three key things is you, you need energy. And that was always a problem that we had. Three tournaments the players came end of a hard season. The Premier League, Champions League. The top players rose in that fatigue. We didn't know whether to go on holiday and give them a breather or to give them an extra boost of fitness to get them ready for the tournament. So fatigue was, was always a problem. You need energy. That's it. You need energy in your dressing room, in the hotel, on the game. You need energy. Second is you've got to keep your players fit. So we've got to keep Kane fit, got to keep Rice fit, got to keep Saka fit, you know, whoever else you choose, but you got to keep your big players fit. All right? And three tournaments we had. And we. Beckham injured with a foot once, Rooney injured, went out of a tournament. So we've. We, for me we had injuries. And the third and most important things have to go your way. Yeah, and. And a lot of things didn't. Sending offs, penalties, etc. So then three things are key to, to anything. So England's chances always going to be top five, always going to be a contender. And you can never say they're going to win it. They're going to win it. They're going to win it because you look at Argentina the last time got beat by Saudi Arabia and still managed to win it. You imagine the Farrar if England had done that, would have recovered and gone on from that. But I think, you know, they did and England have to cross that path and being very close and they have an opportunity because I think one, the squad is bigger and better and more balanced. But you still need your big players fit. And who knows about luck and the bounce of the ball? No one knows about that. And it is key in all tournaments.
- [16:50]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners.
- [16:57]
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- [17:25]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
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- [17:27]
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- [17:31]
Steve McClaren
What do you mean spending it right now?
- [17:33]
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- [17:38]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
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- [18:35]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
And those two games that cost you the chance to qualify for 2008, did you feel like it was luck that you were missing in those two games?
- [18:48]
Steve McClaren
Well, that will be the Russia and the Croatia. Yeah, yeah. The, the. We. We were fine and we were doing fine and we were, we were going to Russia and we're playing on Astroturf. You can't play an Astroturf in a World cup qualifier where we just need a draw and we're going through you. You can't play an Astroturf. Yeah, in Russia you can. So we had to play an Astroturf. Now preparing for Astroturf is very difficult with the players with injuries, knees, blood, hips. So we, we did, we did train on Astroturf and it was dry. We went to, to Russia and took his ages to land. I always remember we're going. Why are we circling around the airport? We can't land. It's the Russians. So in fact, John Terry actually phoned Abramovich on the plane.
- [19:49]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Did he?
- [19:50]
Steve McClaren
And said we can't land. For some reason we are not landing and we're going round and round in circles. And five minutes later, all of a sudden we landed. I thought that's influence for you.
- [20:04]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Yeah. The Chelsea captain delivered for England that
- [20:07]
Steve McClaren
day and we trained on the, on the artificial. We were going to play on night before and it was dry, born dry. And we come to play the game and they soaked it. So whereas we trained on it, it was slow, they soaked it and in the warm up it was rapid and lightning. So we had that to, to contend with. So, so that was the first One. And I thought we were a little unlucky in the game and one or two things, but maybe then we come back, got the look and the result and, yeah, we played Croatia and I actually thought, we're going to win two nil down, come back to two, two. I thought, good changes. Second half when we're back. Two, two and about 15, 20 minutes to go. And, you know, someone hit a long shot from 30 yards and unbelievably went in and, you know. So, yeah, some things happen that you can't control, which is why you have to control the controllables.
- [21:18]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
So when you were standing on the side of the pitch at that point, did you think to yourself, this is. This is me done with England.
- [21:25]
Steve McClaren
Oh, we had to win.
- [21:27]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
You knew it cost you your job.
- [21:28]
Steve McClaren
Oh, without a doubt, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. That's the job qualification for your tournament. So I knew. Knew we had to win and knew that was curtains if we didn't.
- [21:42]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
But you were also following a legacy of, like, fine men like Graham Taylor had gone through, like, that public ridicule afterwards, you know, the turnips. And he. In his biography, he talks about how his wife was spat at in supermarkets and that sort of social disgrace that followed. It did that into your thinking at that moment in time, that this. It was like we almost put our England football managers in the stocks and love to ridicule them.
- [22:11]
Steve McClaren
Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, it's always difficult. It's always difficult. You know, I remember there is relief, unbelievably. Really? Yeah, there is relief. So you. Yeah, you get. Not get over the disappointment because you never do. But you, you, you. You take it. You. You've got to. I remember after going, you know, that's. And. And John Terry was great. John Terry said, no, we're going to speak for you, gaffer. We're going to speak for you as well. You know, we're gonna. And I said, no, don't. I don't want the players speaking. It's my responsibility and I've got to go out and face everything. Well, we want it. I said, no, I've got to do it and I'll do it.
- [22:55]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
And why did you want that? Because I almost think if John Terry comes out and says, look, this guy has been brilliant for us. The players were behind him. We didn't deliver. It's good for you. It's good for your legacy. It's a good message for you as a manager. But you didn't want that.
- [23:07]
Steve McClaren
No, I always felt it was Just my responsibility to, to do that and, and face the media and not them because they, they had to carry on playing for England. I knew that and, and I knew what the job was and I knew the consequences. I'd seen. I've been at the side with Sven, yeah, through many, many ups and downs and see how he handled it and, and I've got to handle it with great dignity. I thought I'd try to do that press conference the next morning. Then I remember going home and I live in Yarmouth and my house is a mile down a long road and you come off the main road and it's a mile to, to my house and, and through it and coming back on the night with my wife and there was cars parked each side of that mile long road. Wow. All the way down to the house and I went, wow, you know, and I thought, I hope this isn't going to be it, you know, constant. And I got in, got into my house, got through and I remember Craigie from Sky Sports, I phoned him, I went, I've got a mile long queue of cars and they're all outside my gate. I said, what do I do? You know, are they going to be parked here, I'm going to be here all night or what? He said, just make them a cup of tea, take a tray out, make them a cup of tea. He said, just stand there, answer a few questions and they'll go away. And I went, behave, Greggy. And he said, no, no, no, they will, they will, they'll go away. So me and the wife, we made some cups of tea, tray each, went down, fed them, fed it through the gate and I'll answer one or two questions, you know, which, which I did, thank you very much, drank the tea, left them on the floor, walked back in the house, 10 minutes later, everyone's gone. And to be fair, that was kind of it. Yeah. And then people move on and, and it is right, you know, people move on and move quickly, but it's a week, two weeks of, you know, constant, constant. And I was lucky because I had good family, very good wife, very good community because I was in Yarm, which was, you know, old Middlesbrough, so, so the Middlesbrough people were fine, kids went to the school, said, you're okay. Yeah. So it was an environment in which I could walk down the street and everyone would go, ah, it's Steve. They knew me as just Steve rather than whatever, so it was fine.
- [25:55]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
And what about your boys though? Because obviously, like, if I try and put myself in your position there, I'D be worried about the impact on my family of this kind of scrutiny. What did you say to prepare them for it?
- [26:08]
Steve McClaren
I think it was interesting because after Andorra and we'd won and we'd came home and, you know, everyone was even after that. McLaren go. McLaren's gone. He's got to quit and he's got to do this and he's got to do that. And so we had a. We had a family meeting in the kitchen. And I can't remember how old the boys would have been then, only young, but they all went to the same school. And my only worry was that at school they were getting usual kids alike. So I got the kids together and said, okay, look, we're in this situation. I said, carry on. I said, oh, if you're getting too much stick, you can't take what. Whatever's happening. Yeah, you know, hearing or things like that, then, you know, we'll think about quitting. The boys went, you won't, dad. You have no chance. He says, you got well come to quality or euros to qualify for. He said, school's fine.
- [27:13]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
That's so nice.
- [27:14]
Steve McClaren
Okay, everyone's all right. And the missus is in the corner going, oh, no, I'm going. There you go, love. Unanimous. Four against one.
- [27:25]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
We carry on.
- [27:26]
Steve McClaren
We carry on.
- [27:26]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
I think it's so interesting, though, that when you say that when you left England, there was. That there was a relief, a sense of relief. And. And in some ways it's such a shame, isn't it, that the biggest job in English football, I could be one of the biggest management jobs in the world. When you lose the job, you have a sense of relief.
- [27:43]
Steve McClaren
I think that's every. I think that's every job. I think, you know, no one. No one will and can't explain the. The pressure that managers feel. Yeah.
- [27:57]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Could you try. Could you try and take us into standing on the touchline in that final game?
- [28:00]
Steve McClaren
Very difficult. I couldn't. Not even that. You know, you are all emotional. You know, I remember when I went to Derby and Darren Wassell was taking a game and he was. He was there, and then he took the game, and then I took over the team the next game and said, how was your faces? He says, all these courses we go on, all this at St. George's park, just do not prepare you for that. Because I think he played the game and he was 3 nil down. I think 4 nil down at half time. Right. You know, and. And, you know, that's pressure. You think this is going to get bad. This is going to get worse. And you know, I've had bad defeats and you internalize and you, you can't, you just can't. You have to be in that position. You can't. I can't say, well, imagine that. Yeah. And that's what it's like. You have to experience it and only those who have. And that's presumed. That's at every level. I speak to my friend who, you know, was doing Eastly, you know, he said, steve, I can hear it. He said, it's worse for me than it is for you, you know. Yes. You've got 90,000 on shouting you. He said, I've got. I've got 50 people behind me and I can hear every word. Well, that's every swear word. And I went, you've got a point there. And I'm not too sure that would be. I wouldn't like that. That'd be too close. At least if there's 90,000, there's 90,000 and it's, you know, far away and you kind of zeroed in. You are focused in on your job and what you've got to do in that 95 minutes, which is the be all and end all. So managing that 95 minutes is key to everything.
- [29:48]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
I think it's so fascinating. And I think we're about to enter another World Cup, Right. And I've obviously, as you know, worked with players who've played for England, all of whom have told me the fear when you put the England shirt on. What are the papers going to write about this performance? You know, that. That idea that they're restricted because the pressure's so great. You've just told us about the pressure. We've spoken to Sam Allardyce on this show about the pressure. I remember talking to Sven years ago about it. I just wonder what purpose it serves. I wonder if we were a nation that was encouraging and embracing of our England team managers and players. I wonder what a difference it would make.
- [30:23]
Steve McClaren
And I speak to two other nations and other national team managers. It's just as bad.
- [30:29]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Oh, it's absolutely.
- [30:30]
Steve McClaren
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [30:31]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
It's not an England thing.
- [30:33]
Steve McClaren
And I tell you something, I mean, I've just come back from Jamaica. We've. You play games in Jamaica. Oh, wow. Wow. Were they emotional? Right. And I remember going to the island and watching the local teams and there's not many of them. Wow. The emotion that the supporters have. Over emotional. Over emotional.
- [31:01]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Maybe this is what's magic then, about football.
- [31:02]
Steve McClaren
It is, absolutely. And it's like, you know, I remember the last game and vitriolic at times much worse in. At some stages than we with England or any art. And. And I'm thinking, wow, you know, this. And it's just the part. It's. It's the show. It's theater. And these are such, you know, everyone's passionate and that's what you know. And you do create a sense of. Of, you know, you're letting you know that was my thing. You're letting a nation down. That's what upset me. I'm letting the team down and I'm letting a nation down. And that's not. That's not 90, 000 people. That's 50, 60, 70 million people who. Who support England when there's a tournament on or there's a game on. You know, that, that weight. That's what you realize.
- [32:02]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
But I sense in the answer there when you describe in the Jamaica experience where you were able to detach yourself a little bit and go, wow, this is incredible, this display of emotion compared to when you were on the touchline at Wembley. What have you learned about being able to disassociate yourself from those emotions, to be able to do your job and protect your own dignity?
- [32:24]
Steve McClaren
Yeah, I think you just go along the lines and you learn from. From different managers, you learn from Southern Alex, you earn from, you know, Sven was that. Sven was perfect, you know, calmness personified. Wasn't he? Was just never bothered him at all.
- [32:42]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Was that. Was that accurate or was that just the public perception behind the scenes as well?
- [32:48]
Steve McClaren
Purely just pure calmness. And I think that calmness he made it better decisions.
- [32:55]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Can you remember a time in England where you made a. An emotional decision and it wasn't the right one?
- [32:59]
Steve McClaren
In hindsight, I think the key and I've talked to a lot to coaches and trying feedback and I say, look, game management is the most important thing that 95 minutes we can all go Monday to Friday. And I just read the other day, Pep talking about, do you get nervous? Do you get anxious? He says, oh, Monday or Friday, I love not even nervous a little bit. An hour and a half before the game. Yeah, I'm nervous and I think that is exactly right. And even during the game some sometimes you can be so dealing with that that the emotion you have to. You have to have certain processes and certain. You have to know yourself very well. You have to know your triggers, you have to know how to stay calm, come back, you know, and you have to have good people around you, you know, who keep you. And then you see it now with. I see Arteta, you know, when he's. And you see his two assistants, which bump and calm him down and. And, you know, you can only make good decisions under calmness. Yeah, that 95 minutes is important. So. But, you know, there's. There's been noticeable games where should have done that, then. Should have done that, then change too late, change too early.
- [34:23]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Can you give us an example?
- [34:25]
Steve McClaren
Yeah, there was. It. It was that last England game, and we were two. Two, and we were on the ascendancy, and we're going on to win this game. And then you just. I think there's a little spell of two or three, five minutes where we kind of run out that energy and that initial steam just after half time. And I always remember Terry Venables, Steve round, and it's that last 20 minutes. And you're looking for changes. Yeah, I think we should. You know. What you think? Yeah, well, you know, maybe we should change him. Maybe one of us. Maybe we should change Stevie G. Bring him off, get some energy in that midfield. He's run his. Run his. And I was thinking, it's our best player, you know, do you take your best player off and you think, gosh, if he goes wrong, I take my best player off? And all of a sudden you're thinking of the consequences. Bad, you know, Bad. I went. Consequences of that. Not too sure. Not. Yeah, but he's our best player and I think he's okay. It's the consequences of it. Thinking I'm thinking too far ahead. And. And that's the. And that's why high performances, dealing with that pressure and dealing with that, staying in the moment and going what's best for the moment. And you get advice from. From. From people and plays, and you have to make the decision on that, on the game. So. And I think I waited about a minute or two, only a minute or two to make that decision instead of being, okay, okay, get. And just as I went, yeah, let's make the change. Bump this. God. And I went, damn sure done it a minute ago. Just that minute. Yeah. And I thought, damn, it's a big lesson for me. You gotta stay in a moment. And obviously then we kept him on and we put subs on to try and get the equalizer to qualify through. And it didn't work out. And that's why I always say to people, and not just that, you know, I can recollect the times that I've done it. Then I also recollect, you know, Sir Alex Get 7 out of 10 decisions right, you're okay. Yeah, but you gotta get the important ones right. You know, and that was, you know, when I worked with him, that was his strength. He just went boom, boom, boom. And, and he, he, he had courage in his convictions to do that. Yeah. And to, you know, doesn't matter.
- [37:10]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
And do you know how Sir Alex was able to have those courage of his convictions?
- [37:16]
Steve McClaren
I think because, I think because he was a risk taker, right? I think might have been. Renee, when he was interviewed by you guys, I think he was talking about, you know, he's, he's decision making. And, and if this doesn't work, if that doesn't work, if that doesn't work, if that doesn't work, we'll just gamble. Yeah, we'll just gamble. And that's what he did. And I've seen him do it many times. Many times. And sometimes he got it wrong, but not many. But he didn't mind. So what he. And, and this is. He had great belief. And this is what they talk about, you know, his preparation was immaculate. He had such belief. He never blamed, and he never blamed himself for any defeat. Any defeat.
- [38:03]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Explain what you mean by that. Because you came in and said, this is on me when. With that English.
- [38:07]
Steve McClaren
Yeah, that's right. And I would come in on a Monday and go, yeah, you know, defense and that, you know, and him up, he didn't play very well. And he, you know, and everything says, shut up, Steve. It was the referee, it was the ref. He didn't add on enough time. It was this, it was that. And I was thinking maybe we need to work a little bit more on defense or we maybe need a word with him or we should have, you know, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. And, you know, been fortunate to work with top managers and top players. They're all the same. They're all the same. Never their fault. They've got such belief in themselves that they are right all the time. And it's a strength, also a weakness, yin and yang. So. And I really admired that. And maybe I was thinking I should be more like that instead of going, you know what, let's, let's analyze sadly why we lost. And the gaffer used to just go seraphory seraphery sat linesman's decision. It was that. It was that, right, we move on and we're quick and, and was that
- [39:23]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
the key, that it just allowed him to be able to process it a lot quicker and move on?
- [39:27]
Steve McClaren
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think it just belief you know, it starts with confidence, but ends up with great belief over preparation. And I saw, you know, I've seen that many, many times. You know, the, and, and United was the finishing school for me. Yeah, it was. This is what it's all about. You know, you do podcast, you listen to everything that comes. I used to read anything on American sports because they were dealing with millionaires way before we were. How do they deal with them? You know, how do they handle that pressure and everything like that. And he. That was the finishing school.
- [40:11]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
So can I go back then to the recruitment of you, because were you aware that. That Sir Alex had phoned around his sort of his managerial peer group asking for the most innovative young coach in British football?
- [40:26]
Steve McClaren
Well, we, we'd all seen it. And I was happy working with Jim Smith at Derby. We're doing really well. Great brand of football. Jim's crazy but magnificent to work for. Good team. We're doing okay. And I was enjoying it. I was. And I was a coach, an assistant. I wanted to be the best coach, you know, in the uk, I wanted to be the best coach, and that was always my goal.
- [40:52]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
So you didn't want to be a head coach. It was just being.
- [40:55]
Steve McClaren
Well, I knew the progression.
- [40:57]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Right.
- [40:57]
Steve McClaren
So initially, to start with, you know, I got the bug as you do, and once you get the bug, sponge for knowledge. So I got that and, and progressed and I wanted to progress and progress and get as far as I possibly could. So, you know, climb Everest, shall we say. That was my, my goal in football. I worked with Morris Evans and, and I always say, get yourself a good mentor. And, you know, Bill Bezig. Yeah, yeah. You know, was 30 years with Bill. What a mentor, you know, phenomenal man. Yeah. And, and a truth teller. So I, I, so I was happy going along, but all of a sudden was at a dinner and this one journalist who I knew was close to. To surround it, said you might get a phone call in a couple of weeks from the man. Yeah, he's looking. You know, he's looking. Yeah. Shut up. No, and I've read all about David Moyes and things like that.
- [41:59]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
No.
- [42:00]
Steve McClaren
And I never heard anything and never thought anything of it. Got a phone call Saturday night. It's him. He's got his voice. I'm thinking it's a joke. Anyway, so Tuesday I'll have a. We were playing them on Tuesday. I'll have a word with Jim Smith. You want to come to my new son? Yeah. She said, right, I'll sort it Tuesday. So we played Them my new one. One nil. We played well. And get back. Jim Smith pulls me about two in the morning at Pride park, says, you'll be up early in the morning then, Eh? I said, what, Jim? You'll be up early in the morning. Oh, what do you mean? He says, you know what I mean. You've been talking to him, aren't you? And I went, yeah. He went, I know. He pulled me tonight after the game and he said. He said, do you want me to drive you? Are you all right driving yourself? Oh, amazing, brilliant, yeah. I went, ah, big hook. And I went, oh, fantastic, great. And he said, get yourself there, son, you know, tomorrow. So that's kind of how it happened. So I drove, next day, met him and.
- [43:11]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
But tell us about that, that Saturday night phone call, because we've had people like Phil Jones on here that told us about when he was recruited. He goes to see Sir Alex at his holiday home and the question he's asking him is, I want winners. Are you a winner? What's he asking you in that phone call?
- [43:28]
Steve McClaren
I think the key thing to that was, it was just real sharp, sharp, abrupt. You want to join Man United? I'm looking for an assistant. Well, we've identified you. And he kind of knew, not say no. And I went, yeah. And he just said, right, this is it, this. I'll sort it. So I sorted it, Met him on Thursday. I thought I'd have the weekend off. He said, come to the hotel Friday. We're playing Forest on Saturday. Sit on the bench and then your first sessions on Monday. And that was it. That was my itinerary. And. Oh, fine. So I met the players and they were like, who's this? I got introduced. Steve McClaridge. By the. By the German he gave you.
- [44:18]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
He used the wrong name when he introduced you to the stage.
- [44:20]
Steve McClaren
I'd like to welcome Steve McLarridge as our new assistant. I went, oh, what chance have I got? You know, the players must be Guy new, is he? And I met them on Friday, sat on the bench on Saturday, played knots Forest 181. And I come in on Monday and see the gaffer and say, well, what do you want me to do? He looked at me, what I want you to do, son? What do I want you to do? I thought, I'm in for a bollocking. Even before I've started. I said, yeah, well, you know, do you. Do you want me to coach this? Coach near. How do you. What did you do at Derby? And before I could answer, he went, that's why you're here, son, because of what you did at Derby. Now get out there and coach like you did at Derby.
- [45:09]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
How good for you, though, like to empower you in that moment to be like, steve, it's yours.
- [45:14]
Steve McClaren
Then it was. That was it. Clean sheet of paper. And I think there was once in the three years we were together, he went, steve, I really want you to focus on this for this game. Runs in behind anyway. And I went. And people say, so. So what is it about him? What is it about him? He's just a people's person. But he just. You work for him, he trusts you. And that was the biggest thing. He trusted. He trusts me. First day with that. Yeah. And I was. Remember? And he always used to come out first, 20 minutes. How's it going, Steve? How's it going? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He said, yeah, they look sharp, look all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And do you mind if I go back in the office? I got just a couple of things I need to sort out. Yeah, no problem. Yeah. So he just left me completely to it. I couldn't believe it. You know, we had experience, but. And I thought. And eat. He chose people. He recruited. Well, recruit the best people, you know, that's the key. It's all about people. Yeah. And he recruited the best people. You know, he told them what the job was or they expected to know what the job was. That was. And he let him get on with it and that was it. And. And that was. And I thought, wow. And he did that with all his staff, all his players. He trusted them to do the job. And the second thing, he sets such high standards.
- [46:47]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
And how would he set those high standards? If you're doing the training and the staff are looking after other areas and he's kind of a little bit hands off in the week. How are those standards set and maintained?
- [46:57]
Steve McClaren
I think I was lucky because I hadn't seen the days when he was fighting everyone. Yeah. To gain that power. But he gained that power. And it's like Ryan Giggs once said in an interview, you know, we used to hear that cough coming down the stairs at the cliff. And everyone scarpered. It's like the headmaster's coming, scarper. So it. He just had to look at somebody, give you the look, give you the whatever. And you went, oh, I'm in trouble to a player, or whatever. And so people say, you haven't seen the height. He'd never used a hairdryer, didn't need to.
- [47:37]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
What were his team talks like? Because I Imagine this is a period where you're absorbing so much.
- [47:43]
Steve McClaren
Everything was emotion, everything was. To the heart, you know, everything was.
- [47:51]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
What sort of things would he be saying?
- [47:53]
Steve McClaren
He knew. He knew individual players like Gary, you know, he knew your grandparents, you know, and it said, you know, one of the players parents, grandparents had passed away. Granddad will be looking. They'd be looking today. He'd be looking. All right. And everything was. Every team talk was. But, you know, the. The 99 Cup, European Cup. Got a chance, boys. Got a chance to fly to the moon. Fly to the moon. Who's done that? You've got a chance. That's what tonight is, a chance to do that. And then we were all like, wow. Yeah, the moon. And that was. It used to just. Every time, even at me, I was up and going.
- [48:53]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
I think you can feel it even now, can't you? I see it in your eyes.
- [48:56]
Steve McClaren
Yeah, you get the goose because you were there with it. And I always remember. Oh, it was. We did a legends game. So it was Bayern Munich against Manchester United a few years ago.
- [49:07]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I went to it. Yeah.
- [49:10]
Steve McClaren
And we got all the players and we was in the dressing room and
- [49:13]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Beckham come back, didn't they?
- [49:14]
Steve McClaren
For it? Yeah, yeah, they came back for it and. And he gave a team talk in the dressing room. Oh, my God. It was. I went. It's unbelievable, you guys, back in that day. You are magnificent. You were superb. You were this, you were that. And it was. And I went at the after moment. I cannot believe nobody has got the phone out or none of the social media in the club had filmed it because it was one of the best team talks. Yeah. I'm not saying we went out there and the beat by Munich, 7 nil this time.
- [49:53]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Yeah.
- [49:54]
Steve McClaren
But it was. And that's what he had. It was just a hook for the game. And he knew. He knew the hook. There wasn't many tactics, really was the hook of. And you know why you're playing for this shirt.
- [50:11]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
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- [53:37]
Steve McClaren
Roy was always a balancing act, right? What I admired first and foremost, wow, what a leader, what a captain, what a. What a man. Didn't realize what a good footballer he was. Never gave the ball away. In training, we played little area. I used to obviously go out with that, never gave it away. And he was. I loved him. Whoa. Standards, you know, you were saying, how would you set. Stand. How did the gaffer set standards like that? Why? Because he had a captain who was exactly like him, right? And set the same standards and demanded the same standards that he did. So he just went, he gets on with it. And he did it. And I remember going in and after one game and we won one nil. And I was going, oh, well done, boys. Was great. That was great. That was good. Yeah, you were good. And I went, Steve shut down. He says, we were. We were crap. He says, do not ever come into this dressing room, Steve, and say we were good when we were crap, even though we won. Honesty is what we want in this dressing room. Give us honesty. And I went, fair enough, right? Lesson learned. And I went back and sat down and began, fine, little lesson for you there. A little lesson. And he said, do you know, he said, I'll tell you something, these players, he said, they only need two words. They only need two words. Well done. That's it. Don't flower it up. Don't give him anymore. Just go around and just go, well done. Well done. And that stuck with me all the time.
- [55:38]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Brilliant.
- [55:38]
Steve McClaren
So I just said, even anyway, if Anyone gets a well done from me, they know, oh, that is a well done. And the same was for him.
- [55:46]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
So when we spoke to Rio, he, he told us a story about how Keane was very good at testing you quite early on. And he tells a story about whacking the ball at him in his first training session and saying, steve's laughing already. How did he test you? Because you're coming in mid season and so they've seen the manager trust in you. Did he choose to put you through the crucible?
- [56:11]
Steve McClaren
They all did. That's. That's what they all did. They were ruthless. It was like going into a jungle every day. My first five months, I didn't sleep my sessions I planned till about 2, 3, 4 in the morning. Whether that's a little box or whatever, I planned it and tried to vision it and try to make it perfect. So over preparation, give me a belief that it would be all right, and then the actual courage to go, Roy, do this, or Teddy, do that, or Bets, do that, or whatever. And I think it was. You just had to gain the respect, didn't you, of the players from day one. And that was so with Roy, as long as you were like him and you wanted them standards, it have you, you know, it got it have you? And I was one of them that just. I thought this was always my standard. I always wanted training intense, I always wanted competitive. It was always winners and losers. And that's what they wanted, that's what they loved. They went, we love this. And the way we kind of delivered it, it was very. And I always, as a training session, you always get players. I wanted them in that band. If I over arouse them, you know, if you over arouse. So there's that band and my job was from the start to get them in that band. So we'd have boxes which were quite competitive, but also humorous that you could get the energy. What I talked about at the beginning, energy. I wanted energy. So from. We got that up. So a few bad decisions or you go in, or whatever it was, I got them in that sweet spot and sometimes I make a decision and they got them over aroused. That was the worst because you couldn't control them after that. So that was my, my sweet spot. So on every player and Roy was kind of my gauge to getting in that sweet spot, if that makes sense. So as long as I got Ryan that sweet spot, generally the team would follow and be in that as well. And I remember a couple of times, you know, if you give it, give a decision Against Roy, you know, far right. You were last. The race. You were last. 10 presses for last. No, I'm not doing them. You can't. So we'd have like a face off for that, you know.
- [59:02]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
And how important is it for you not to lose that face off in front of.
- [59:06]
Steve McClaren
Yeah, yeah. Was it it? But there again, I've seen boxes and the gaffer used to join in and, and, and riot zip a ball and. Or someone wouldn't go into the gaffer's foot and everyone would go, gaffer, you're in. You know, and he got. Well, it's a bad ball.
- [59:27]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Not his fault. Never his fault.
- [59:30]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Bad ball.
- [59:31]
Steve McClaren
I think it was Roy who passed. It went, it's a bad ball. And Roy White went, it's the best ball I've played all season. It's you. You can't control it. I can't control it. Oh, that was it. And, and you know, and that was the ferocity of the group that you could, it could explode like that. And that was everybody, you know, that was. And sometimes you lose it yourself. But that they wanted that competition, they wanted that edge, they wanted that intensity and, and you know, they did it every day. If my cones weren't straight. You've been drinking last night. One of the corn's out of place. Oh, that was a bad day. Oh, you haven't counted. Oh, everything had to be spot on, perfect.
- [60:24]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
But I've often thought about you during that period and it sounds just so, like you must have on hyper alert. You've come in, you've been given this trust, you're working till 2 or 3 in the morning to get your sessions right. Like, what did that take out of you? Because that must have been exhausting. Oh, I was gone on an emotional and a physical level.
- [60:42]
Steve McClaren
Gone every, you know, which is a lucky period. Five months. And I was as soon as I finished, pull back to my hotel room, flat out thinking of the next one. So after that five month period, I was gone. Right? Totally. And I always remember then I was getting in the car park, we just had the big parade, waiting, dying for a holiday, please. Just about to get in the car. Big shout, where are you going, son?
- [61:15]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Holiday.
- [61:16]
Steve McClaren
He says you're not. He says you're in tomorrow. Oh, and no, he says, yeah, you're in tomorrow on all the staffing at the Cliff. Nine o'. Clock.
- [61:26]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
All right, so you've just done the treble.
- [61:28]
Steve McClaren
We're just in the trouble precedent. We're off. And he said, no meeting all the staff next morning. Nine o', clock, big box, put your medals in there. He said that was good. Got to do it again next year. Are we going to do it? And I went, oh my God, wow. And then. And it was. That was the third big thing I learned. I think that's what made him different. Most people, myself included, win the treble. Have a week off. Have a week off. We'll discuss it, you know, and talk about it, you know, and no next day, what we going to do. And so we came in the next day and how we're going to do it, how we're going to do it again. He just hated and could, could smell complacency amongst the players. So although setting the standards, he knew when the standard was dropping. So he would watch, observe a lot, listen a lot and read body language. Well, right. Something wrong with him, Steve, something wrong with him, deal with him, have a look at him. And he hated anybody getting complacent and if they got too complacent and you know, you say, well, he let people go early, you know, before probably the sell by date. But he knew that that would affect the group. You know, there's been many stories of that. So complacency wouldn't allow it.
- [63:08]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
But I've often reflected on this because I. We've grown up in that generation and loving that relentlessness of Sir Alex, of like, you know, the bus keeps moving and we, and we all get onto it. But there is a shadow side to it, isn't there? That, like it's great when you run it, but that does come at a cost not to take your, like your week off, you know, you've gone through that intense period, surely a week off there would have been exactly what you'd have needed. What is the shadow side of that? Inability to ever take your foot off the pedal.
- [63:45]
Steve McClaren
Yeah, it's a great question. He never did. Didn't allow you to. Yeah, and I think, I think, you know, one of the keys you talk about, you know, high performance and one of the key things is, is to outwork people. And, and I had evidence of that, you know, from, from the very beginning with first with, with Jim and that, you know, just football, football all day and overwork and work people and seeing him in at 6 o' clock before everybody else and the last to go away and, and all this and thinking, God won't work. You know, this is how we're being brought up. We gotta work. So it takes its toll. And I, I think many times over my career I've had burnout you know, and really didn't realize it, but that's the intensity that you work at. So after them five months and doing it, there's always a ying and a yang to everything. Yeah, it's a real strength. But it's also can be a curse to your staff.
- [64:51]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Has the job ever affected your mental health?
- [64:56]
Steve McClaren
My family would say definitely. I would say yes. I would say yes, definitely. But I was. I don't know, I suppose it's one of them things that I could always work. I could always work and, and it's a, it's a fear thing, I think. Not a fit. Yeah, it could be a fear of failure, but. And that's what I love about being in football is that someone said if there's an exam every three days and you know what exams are like, you know, no matter what, you know, you'll take the caffeine, you'll do that. I've got to prepare for that exam and I got to pass that exam. So it's like having an exam at school or university or wherever and going, I've got to pass that exam, otherwise I'm in real trouble. So what you do, I've got to do my own work on that. So you, somehow you've got to. And, and, and Eric was the same. Eric had it. Ten hag. You know, I was when I went first to 20 and I used to get in early because I was living size and as it was seven o', clock, whatever, and then he'd be getting in at 5 to 7 and I'd be going and we'd have, I'm sure we'd have a little competition between us who could get in earlier. And then at night I used to go, six o'. Clock, I used to go, finish. Derek, have you finished? No, no, no, no. When, when, when you are. I said, no, no, no, finish. You're okay, you can go home. No, no, no, no, no. Wait for you. I'll wait for you. And I always just think he wants to outwork me.
- [66:42]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Did you see parallels between Eric Ten Hag and Sir Alex?
- [66:46]
Steve McClaren
All managers like that. Yeah. You know, Jim was the same. Spen was. You were the same. I was exactly the same. So parallels, I thought, this is the norm, this is what you have to do, you know. And, and I used to think it's a competition between us to do that. You know, in Jamaica, they couldn't believe it. It was up at half as five, you know, going through things and, and yeah, you're tired and. But you have to do it, because it's an exam and if you get beat on Tuesday, you're in real trouble. So it was that fear of failing.
- [67:21]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
I think this is such an interesting conversation because there is no manager that has managed England, taken an underdog to a European final and won a trophy, been part of the backroom staff of arguably the greatest era, under the greatest manager of English football, gone abroad and won a trophy in a foreign country, speaking a foreign language, managed another national team as well, and then sits here and is as engaged and as excited and as effervescent as ever about the game. But I think one thing that separates you again from so many other people is that you had that experience of United under Sir Alex and then went back in under Eric, as you just mentioned, which is such an interesting parallel. So when you went back in, what was different about Manchester United all those years later?
- [68:08]
Steve McClaren
It's just different. It's just different. And, you know, I was very lucky. I went in Manchester United when Sir Alex was, you know, being the top bee's knees. Won everything. Not won everything, but he got over that hurdle of initial 2, 3, 4 years, even where he was all about character and recruitment of character. And if they were bad characters and went out drinking, whatever, and he didn't mind, I think his key thing was, you must perform in training and you must perform in the game. That's it. Yeah. Anything that affects that, you stop doing it. Right. All right. So if you. You could go out for a drink, which many of them did, and you could be bad boys or whatever, but if you give it in training and you give it in the game, I'm having you. I'm having you. You're doomed for me. You're in our team. So I think I was lucky in that respect to do that. And I think, how would you replace that? How does a member who wants to. Who's going to be the next man to follow Sir Alex? What a nightmare. You know, what you do, but. And then everyone else has followed on and what. What's happened is. And. And I've had it myself. When I went to Middlesbrough, I was very fortunate at five years. And the first three, first two especially, were really tough, really hard. And Steve Gibson could have sacked me three or four times, easy. After four games, no points, nothing. One or two things, you know, happened. Nothing. I'm not thinking. No, we stuck at it. And the third year was a breakthrough. And that's when we got recruitment. And it took us three years to get recruitment right in a club. And with Sir Alex was the same at the beginning. I figured three or four years before he won anything. Recruitment, get out the bad ones, bring in the good. And I had to get rid of Middlesbrough. So many bad and characters coming in. George boating, you know, Gareth Southgate. He got people like that, real good characters. So that's what I learned. It was all about recruitment. It's all about people. It's all about players and the right characters and you get them in the dressing room. So it took me three years. So Eric came in and Eric have the same, you know, and we. We talked about it a lot because everyone keeps saying, well, what's Manchester United? What's this? What's that? What's the other? And Eric, I mean, right, Standards are set. Yeah, standards are set. You know, I think we. We train. We're in at 9, breakfast and we train at 10 pre activation in the gym. All right. And I think after a couple of weeks, some of the players went, can we change the training time? And. And I went, why do you want to change the training time? Well, before it used to be 11 o', clock. And so we used to get up and we used to take the kids to school. And because we're in breakfast at 9 o', clock, we can't take the kids to school. And we'd like to do that. Harry went, no, nine o'.
- [71:46]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Clock.
- [71:46]
Steve McClaren
Boom.
- [71:47]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Ten.
- [71:48]
Steve McClaren
First game against Brentford, we lost. They ran so much. We ran that much. There was 13 km difference in. In. He says they're going to run that this morning. To be fair, I went, don't be silly. You can't do that. He said, fair enough. He said, they'll run after me until I tell them to stop. Fair enough, you know. And he had battles with. With Ronaldo and he had battles with, you know, Rashford was late for one one meeting. Bomb. Closed the door. It's only a minute, 30 seconds. Closed the door, put the team up. He was out of it, you know, Sancho, I think he let go, you know, so he had. He. Was it too much,
- [72:35]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
too rigid, too strict in the modern game?
- [72:39]
Steve McClaren
No, I think. No, I think. No, no. I think what the. The Gavard Sir Alex was. He had that relationship. He built that kind of first and he had that relationship to. And explain why. Yep. So that was first. And I think. I think that, you know, rightly or wrongly, you know, at the beginning, which is absolutely right. It's difficult to have that discipline, which I want, and standards, which you wanted exactly the same. And I went, because I worked with him and I knew him. I went, absolutely right, absolutely. But you're gonna have to fight some battles. Just like Sir Alex had to fight battles and get rid of people. You got to fight battles and you got to get rid of people.
- [73:33]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Sir Alex did it in an era where you might get 40 games. Eric was trying to do it in an era where you get four games. Like, you get judged so much more quickly. So there isn't the time to get to know these players.
- [73:43]
Steve McClaren
And that's the. And that's why he's different.
- [73:45]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Yeah, different.
- [73:46]
Steve McClaren
And. No, different. It's not different. He's trying to establish Manchester United way, which we all know, get the. Get the discipline. Right, because it wasn't. And the players had had many managers before, and, you know, they're going, oh, here's another one.
- [74:02]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
They were big name players, though, to go into battle with, weren't they? Like, to go into battle with Ronaldo is a big decision.
- [74:09]
Steve McClaren
Massive decision. Massive. But, you know, Nerik had his principles and he went, you know, you've got to do this. You got to do that. You got to do that, you got to do that. All right? And. And I think 11, you know, it's 11 players attack, 11 players defend, right? And you must run or you don't play. All right? We can't have 10 defending and one not. We got to have every. You know, so you got to do that. You got to do that. Got to do that. And that was the battle with him and Ronnie that whether he could or couldn't do it or didn't want to do it or whatever wasn't really the issue. It was the mindset that you have to. You know, you've got a battle with this one, you've got a battle with that one, you've got a battle with him, you've got about. And Sir Alex would have had it exactly the same. And you're absolutely right. You're not given time, but we, you know, he built that, recovered, I think. Bad start. Like. Like being Middlesbrough and thinking, Whoa, beat Liverpool 3 1, didn't we? Yep. And I went, whoa, that's it. You know, and so we had spells of it, and we won a Carabao cup and we qualified in the Champions League in that first season. Second season was hard because it. Second. I found that at Middlesbrough also. The first season is tough. Second season is worse. You think it'll get better because you have another window to recruit, but it doesn't get better. And he had that second season, and there was ups and downs and ups and Downs. But he fought like mad. The staff were that they're all in that. And the good players, good players. Casimiro's good player, Bruno, good players, you know, and. And other people, good players. He just had to turn it around and change the. The. The preparation. So we over prepared. So when I first went to United, oh, my God. First day I finished the session and I went, come on then, let's go. And they're all hanging around going, oh, we don't go now. We don't finish now. He says we do extra, Steve. Oh, fine, go on that much. Beckham went on the right, geeks went on the left and fullbacks went with them. And bump, bump, cross. Everyone's in the middle finishing another second finish and everything like that. And I went, wow, this is what they do, right? And Cantona, story of him, he set the. And I went. And there's a sign of a good club wherever I've been. If you finish a training session and they do extra, I go, great. And Manchester United, when we did it initially, they weren't doing extra. They weren't staying. We're just going in under 10 hog. Yeah. And I'm going, this is what they're used to, just finishing the session and going in. And I'm like, come on, let's do a bit of extra finishing. And Bruno would be there, you know, and Bruno practice all day doing it. And eventually people would follow and we'd encourage it and Benny McCarthy and we'd have them going a bit, but not as. Not as much as it used to be. So it's always that extra, extra, extra that. So in time it would have turned around.
- [77:32]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Yeah.
- [77:32]
Steve McClaren
And we would, you know, United, we. We were walking home after Coventry, you know, the Coventry game. We were 3 nil up in the semifinal.
- [77:41]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [77:42]
Steve McClaren
In the FA Cup. And somehow by a toenail, Var saved us. I said, don't, Eric, don't ever, don't ever criticize Var again. I said, if they'd have got that penalty and scored it come back from 3 nil and 4 3, we'd have been walking home. Yeah. And I'd have said, we deserve to walk home. All right. So it did that. And all of a sudden, I see it so often now, I'm seeing it with. With Liam. And everyone says, you know, and we had it at that time. Eric's lost the dressing room. Eric's lost the dressing room. But, you know, in that. In that week after. I think it was Crystal palace, that
- [78:26]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
was the four nil game.
- [78:27]
Steve McClaren
Four Nil game. Were we bad or were we bad? Yeah. And I went, we. We should be walking home as well from here. And I went, but in a week, the players had kind of after turned it around.
- [78:41]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Before the Cup Final.
- [78:42]
Steve McClaren
Before the Cup Final.
- [78:43]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
And who led from those players?
- [78:45]
Steve McClaren
You know what it was? We used to have a activation in the gym and some of the players always messed about with the ball and played. Two touch. Diogo Dalot. Yeah. Always the same, enthusiastic, always positive, always. Come on, two touch. Come on, two touch. First day, four or five, second day, five or six, second, third day. By the end of say one week, two weeks, everyone was in. I used to stand at the balcony and look down and go, wow. The players are doing it. You know, the players are actually going take on the message. We will follow and we will do it together. And they were having fun and laughing, smiling. Training was great. They were all in for it, Eric. And there was. Was staff. You know how we're going to win this game? I think it started with Arsenal. We lost, but yeah, we tried something different, suited the players and we did that. And then we went to Wembley and I said after the Arsenal game, and watching them on training and watching them before and that and enjoying it and focused. I went, we'll win the cup, we'll win it.
- [80:07]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
How far out was this? And like the week before you, you knew you were two weeks, right?
- [80:11]
Steve McClaren
Two weeks. So after Arsenal, I think we played the next and then the next. I watched his Brighton and we're like, easy. I went, oh. I said, I tell you something, it's. It's in the stars because of what happened at camp, we're going to win the Cup, I'm telling you, going to win the Cup. And prepared so well that Eric had a couple of videos. Magnificent.
- [80:35]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Well, like, what were the videos?
- [80:37]
Steve McClaren
Just one was every given Sunday, I think. Oh, yeah, Mitchell did that one. And then another was. We had a security girl and she was. She'd been in the forces and big screen came up before we're going to the fire. Big screen and one chair. And a chair. It was great. And I went. And we're all sat in the meeting room and he never told anyone. And we all went, somebody's gonna sit in that chair. All the players are in staff. And we're all trying to guess who's gonna sit in the chair. Someone's gonna deliver a speech from that chair. Is it gonna be Sir Alex? Who's it gonna be? Who walks in? This security girl. And she sits down and she starts Talking about her military days and what it's like to be in the military together in a war zone in Afghanistan. Powerful. And clips of things and she was so good. And honestly, what a dry eye. And we all go, when? And I went, oh, my God, we're not just going to win the cup, we're going to kill him. It was honestly, I went, no doubt. And then the game started and man city, someone headed it back over keeper's head and Garnachoska. And I'm going, we're definitely going to win it now because that never happens normally, you know what I mean? Talking about the rub of the green momentum and.
- [82:18]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
But can I ask you, Steve, because I, I was at that cup final and when Casemiro got dropped, I think most people were thinking, what happens with his career now? And seeing the renaissance I'm interested in. How do you deliver bad news to an icon like that? And how did he respond to it?
- [82:35]
Steve McClaren
Wow. That was. I. I honestly. I honestly don't know how Casemiro dealt with it, how he did. Yeah, with such professionalism and such dignity. And. And I think the key thing was that we came back the next year. You know, we didn't expect to, but yeah, we came back the next year and Casemiro was the. One of the first ones in with a small group and. And I was going, wow, this is going to be interesting because he's still here and I thought that would be the end. And he's still here. Was the best trainer. Was the best trainer. Couldn't believe it. I went from day one, such professionalism and the best trainer, no matter what. And I went, what happened to him last season? The disappointment that he must have had not to be a part of it. Yeah. Not even in the squad.
- [83:37]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
And when was he told?
- [83:40]
Steve McClaren
I think he knew well before, So I think he knew well in advance that, that he was out of favor, but he didn't know he wouldn't be in the squad. And I think, I think when the squad was named, I think day before and he still was at the game and he was still in the dressing room and he still came back. He was the best trainer and that's why he's having the impact he's having. Yeah, that I went, oh, my God, that is what you call high performance, you know, from him. And, and he's doing it week in, week out now. Love him. Great lad. Great personality. Was it great? Ah, the best. Even fighting training, it'd be the same every day.
- [84:30]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Because that game against Crystal palace, the four Zero that you referenced. And that's one where the pundits famously said, leave football before the football leads you. And he was being bitten off as a top level footballer. What were you seeing that gave you this view that this guy's a class act?
- [84:51]
Steve McClaren
Just the way he acted. Just the way it was. We spoke often, and he used to say. He said, eric's the best coach I've worked for. He says in detail, in tactics, knowledge of the game. He's the best. Ancelotti is the best manager he's worked for in terms of personality, man, management, look after the players. Right. Said so. He said that, you know, he had utmost respect for Eric, but it was just every day he was the same. And. And he would. He would train every day, he would fight every day he would. He would do extra, you know, And I went, wow, that is professionalism. That. Yeah. Real admiration for him.
- [85:42]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Can I ask what your role was in those moments of conflict? Whether it was like the Ronaldo moment or Marcus not able to join the meeting and being dropped from the team for being late. What would you do in those situations? Were you like, the peacemaker? Were you taking Eric's side? Were you trying to kind of explain to all parties what was going on and find solutions for people?
- [86:04]
Steve McClaren
It's difficult because this is always something which I say to. Well, I said to Eric, I said to everybody, is he doing what you want him to do? Is he doing what you want him to do? You know, if he isn't, can he do it? If he can do it, why is he not doing it? Yeah, if he can't do it, get rid of him. Yeah. If he won't do it, can you persuade him to do it? That's it.
- [86:31]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
But Ronaldo could, right? I mean, he could run back and
- [86:33]
Steve McClaren
defend, but he didn't want to.
- [86:34]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
But why? It's like he's lauded as the professional of professionals. You know, my son, who's 10 years old and loves football, if I say who's the greatest pro of all time, he says, Cristiano Ronaldo.
- [86:44]
Steve McClaren
Yeah. In terms of preparation, the way he was, the way his charisma is just. And then. And I love the chats with him, he was honestly different, but he, you know, he just had a set way of playing, you know, and every team. Every team speak to Roberto Martinez now. You know, we adapt to Ronnie. Eric wouldn't adapt, you know, if he would have done, you know, he felt he couldn't because that was showing a bit of. Of weakness. And that's. That's how Eric was, you know, And I've seen same traits with, with the gaffer. Exactly the same. So it couldn't. So he. He didn't want. He didn't want to, you know, which is understandable because he is, as you rightly say, wins your football matches. He can win your football matches. But they had such a clash that, you know, nobody, you know, Ronnie, just get on with it. You know, Ronnie, you've got to do that, do that, do that, and then you've got to return there and you've got to do that and then you'll play. He wants you to run. Okay, A little more than you probably want to, but fair enough, you know, and he always used to point at the. Sir Alex had a thing on the wall, you know, top talent must work hard to be a top talent, you know. And he always, he saw I used to go, yeah, but you're not. You're not a news guy. Right. Okay then. Okay. So it was always going to be a clash. But, you know, everybody's adapted. Yeah, and they adapted, you know, the previous year when he was there, they adapted. And, you know, you can get that if he's delivering, if he's not delivering, the team won't accept it. So it's just a principle that Eric had. And, and I quite agree with it.
- [88:46]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
And what was the reaction in the dressing room when he left? When he. He left.
- [88:50]
Steve McClaren
When he left or left, like, no, there wasn't. I wasn't a great deal, right? No, no, it wasn't. No. I remember that when I thought, wow, my dad and be interesting players just got along. And the players in general, you know, they're not much different than they are now. And you see them now compared to that, they've been, you know, Vad Nisselroy was great, was great. And he just went. I really liked Rude. I thought he was fantastic, great with the players. And so Rude just came in, like Michael's just come in and Rue just had his own ideas and went, four, three, three. And Bruno, you're there, and Casemiro there and Kobe are there. It's a good three. And he can only that. And he got three results, didn't he? The team played well. And I thought, I thought me personally would have given it to. To Rude till the end of the season because he, he'd done what needed to be done with the team, you know, but they do what they do.
- [90:05]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
You made that comment about you love your chats with Cristiano Ronaldo. And I think over the years we, we often look at him. I'm interested in, like, can you give us an insight into how he thinks that maybe is a little bit different than the rest of us mere mortals?
- [90:21]
Steve McClaren
There you have it. Mere mortals, which is what we were. And rightly so, you know, and he became even mere mere mortals when you spoke to him, because he just, you, he just walked in the room and you went, ron is here. You know, and. And he was professional, he was polite. He knew what he wanted. You know, he knew what he needed to eat. He knew what he needed to work on. He knew. He knew what he needed to do to play. Yeah. Eric wanted more. Yeah, yeah. Or different. But he. This is me. This is. This is me. And if you treat me and you tell me to do, I believe. And he believed he was still the best in the world, which is great, which is absolutely great.
- [91:14]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
But also maybe sometimes this is what we want. This is what you want. And it's okay to not do it together. You go and do your thing and he's gone to Saudi and it's been amazing for him. And Man United have moved on and it looks good for them. It's like sometimes a parting of the ways is maybe the best thing.
- [91:30]
Steve McClaren
Of course. And it was totally. And it relaxed Eric, it relaxed the group, it relaxed the whole feeling in the ground. And. And it was the best for both. For it to happen as it did. And I think, you know, they, they carried on from that.
- [91:48]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
But is there any insights or anything he ever said that you thought, ah, right. That's a different view that I've not seen from other footballers.
- [91:55]
Steve McClaren
No, he, he. And rightly so. He was the best, you know, and like, like you said, I'm better than Messi, you know, he's right. So he. And, and that's what I'm talking. When the top. Top one's only won 2% and you've had them on your. You've had them on the program, you know, you know, they're, they're like, you know, they just believe they're the best, you know.
- [92:18]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
You know, Erik Ten Hag was the guy that spotted Kobe Mainoo and brought him through. The guy that made some really difficult decisions about players that maybe their time was up at United. He won you that trophy. He beat City in the FA Cup Final. You've just told us that he hadn't lost the dressing room. The players were still fighting for him at the end. I just wonder whether whether there was still more for Eric Ten Hag to do at Manchester United.
- [92:41]
Steve McClaren
Yeah, and look, and, and this is my probably message that I say to all these managers I see going out, you know, and thinking and going, well, he's lost the dressing room. Of course you do. Of course you do now and again, you know, Middlesbrough three or four times, you know, my last year, my fifth year, totally, totally lost them. And somehow I did when we were in camp and changed a little bit and, you know, because we had Jimmy, Floyd, Asseban, we had Viduka, we had Yakubo, we had. We had big players and I was kind of upsetting them, you know, and, and it was my, it was my fault, you know, they were what they were, but, you know, I was playing one and dropping the other and doing this and that. I just went, oh, I can't, you know, I've got to play two of them. So I played 442 with two of them and solved the situation and they were like a revelation. And I went, whoa. And then everything, you know, towards the end, then we got to a European cup final and, and yes, you do have moments where you lose it. And it may be not the manager's fault. It may be that no matter what you've got in that dressing room, the balance is not right. And it's got to be right. It's got to be right. Baking a cake, if you put a bad ingredient in it, the cake flops. And you can have that. And I've had that. I've had that a lot. But. And somehow how would you turn it around? How do you turn. You need to get rid of Eminem. Sometimes it takes two or three windows, but you know that, that eventually they're going to be all right. And eventually the players, like they did at Man U, eventually, you know, everyone pulls together because we can win a cup here. You know, we can win something here, which is what Manchester United is about. But that's in general, in what I see in always that, oh, he's lost the dressing room to get rid of the manager, you know, and, and the manager comes in, same problems. Yes. But, you know, you, you can solve it.
- [94:49]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
I just don't know how you managers do it. I mean, I look at this season, for example, you know, Thomas Frank is a megastar at Brentford. The worst manager in the world when he goes to Tottenham. Leroy Rossini had. Did a great job at Strasbourg, was pillared and criticized unnecessarily at Chelsea. And we spoke to a coach who was involved at Tottenham and he said to us it was. It was an alignment problem.
- [95:10]
Steve McClaren
Yeah.
- [95:10]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
And I I think fans and the media, they just don't.
- [95:14]
Steve McClaren
They.
- [95:15]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
They. They don't see what they can't see.
- [95:16]
Steve McClaren
No.
- [95:17]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
And we can't see if there's a lack of alignment at a football club. And there has to be, I think, a way of managers explaining better what is going on so that we can understand why Thomas Frank struggled at spurs or why Liam struggled at Chelsea or why Eric struggled at United. It's. I don't know how we do it, but I feel like there's a. There's a knowledge gap missing here that would be great for the fans and great for managers and great for the game.
- [95:41]
Steve McClaren
Yeah.
- [95:41]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Does that make sense?
- [95:42]
Steve McClaren
Oh, you've just said the word alignment. The only time I've had success is when everything's been aligned from the top to the bottom. We're all sitting on the same page and that's what's going wrong. It's misalignment. And you're absolutely right. It's like the incident with the boy Fernandez, was it? Who From Chelsea. Who. So Liam takes a responsibility of that where it's a. It should be a club. The club agree with this. So if ever we. Chairman, owner, you agree with this? Yeah, I agree with it. Sport director all the way down and everyone's aligned, but there's too much of the manager who wants to say a lot but can't say a lot, who has to deal with it. Whereas we employ, you know, now sport directors, technical directors, whatever, other people above to also be involved in them decisions. So I think the clubs need to. Alignment is the key thing you've got to have. When you don't have it, you can't win, especially as a head coach, manager or whatever. So maybe in that instance that the club comes out and we all agree on this. We all agree on this. Right. It's clear to the fans then that the whole club's behind it. Whereas Liam. I'm doing this and is it the club? So I think once the club, you
- [97:23]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
know, but the club know that if they let the manager take the pressure, of course, then the owner is free of the scrutiny, the sporting director's free of the scrutiny. The manager's such an easy fall guy in the game. Like you said, they're a. They're part of the circus.
- [97:37]
Steve McClaren
Yeah, that's right. That's their position. Yeah.
- [97:39]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Sir. Steve, did you feel. Cause you were there when Ineos then comes in to Manchester United, did you feel that there was a misalignment then while they were trying to find their place could you sense that?
- [97:53]
Steve McClaren
No, no. I sensed an organization coming in who knew damn well what top sport was all about and had top sport people within that group. And I. Yeah, I know Dave. Dave very well. Dave Brailsford very well. And chatting with. I went, you know, eventually this will work. Eventually this will work. Won't work instantly, but eventually it will work because there's so much knowledge there, there's so much resource there. Yeah, that. And given time, and it will be. Given time, it will work. And you're going to make mistakes along the way because Unchanged United is unique. It's different, you know, from up. The noise is different from the outside. So. And they're learning and everything's about people and if you've got the right people, generally, you're okay. So. Yeah, and. And it will. It will work out, I'm absolutely positive, you know.
- [98:54]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
And what was your sort of experiences of Jim Ratcliffe?
- [98:59]
Steve McClaren
I just used to come around, say hello, you know, inspect the place. And it was once, I think, he. He went down to one of the dressing rooms and boots were laying and. And this was his detail to his attention to detail in terms of, well, these dressing rooms are not tidy enough. You know, this isn't the standard that I want and I quite like that. Yeah, I like that. You know, people are going, oh, someone's going to get blamed for that. You know, someone's getting that. They just went, I just pointed it out. That wants a certain standard, you know, and I think that's what they bring. All the sports teams, which they've got, you know, all have that and are all successful. So eventually he won't stop until Manchester United are exactly that.
- [99:56]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
And you think they'll get back there?
- [99:58]
Steve McClaren
I do, definitely. What's the plan for Manchester United going forward? All Michael has to do is demonstrate going forward. I'm the man to take Manchester United going forward. And this is what I would do. This is who I would buy, this is who I would sell, this is who I'd let go. This is the. He's already demonstrated the culture, the principles of play, the what he would do with the backroom staff. So he's already demonstrated on the field that at the moment, he can do that. He's demonstrated that a little bit at Middlesbrough. What he did, he needs to demonstrate now at Manchester United in terms of can he take them forward, aligned with everybody from top to bottom? And that will only be known when that alignment get together and discuss it. That makes sense.
- [100:48]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Makes perfect sense. I've. I'm so glad that on those trips from where you were living to Manchester United, you started listening to high performance, otherwise you wouldn't be sitting in the chair now. And that has been one of the most fascinating conversations about leadership, about dealing with pressure, about dealing with challenges and letdowns, but also enjoying success and seeing your true brilliance in the flesh and delivering like the most remarkable career that you've had. And we sit having this conversation now and Dick Advocar's back in management and Roy Hodgson's back in management. The Neil Warnock's back in management. And you're a lot younger than all of them. You're like the same age as Jose Mourinho. Right. Your story's not over in football, is it?
- [101:31]
Steve McClaren
Oh, my ankle's better now, I'm feeling better. And yeah, don't know what's ahead. And this is football this way you love it and you just. It's just.
- [101:41]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
What would you love, though? What would light your fire
- [101:45]
Steve McClaren
just to be involved in. I'm a learner, I'm a worker and I'm a teacher. That's basically what I am. So any job that involves me with them three things gives me energy, gives me a purpose to get up in the morning. So at the moment I'm fulfilling that with going around talking, coaching coaches, doing talks and things like that. But I like, I like to be around people, I like to be around a team. I like that. The. The format that you get it, you know, it. It. Chris, I. Sponge. I'm like a sponge. I want to know about. It was great, them two years. Great. Jamaica learn about international football, football over in the Caribbean, you know, Central America, North America, it's totally different. Wow. You know, so I'm. I'm all for experience as well. So, you know, it's whatever experience next because, you know, I just. Energy is key and that gives me energy. Yeah. If I can teach, if I can. If I can work at something, if I can learn and be a sponge. And what's happening in what's a lot of I. My always questions, I ask him, what's going to. What's it going to be like in five years? So you almost said four years ago when you started this. I wonder what it's going to be like in five years, you know, and I'm like, I wonder what football's going to be like in five years. But I also think, what was football like five years ago, 10 years ago? What is the same five, 10 years ago? What's the same today? And we must not forget that, yeah, instead of looking too far ahead. So that's always my question is, what are the principles? And I always go back even to 25 years ago with United. Then principles are exactly the same preparation. Yeah, make them believe. Yeah, make them believe. And then you've got to give them the courage and the balls to go out there and play. Many people said, what makes Ferguson's fen. What makes these top managers? What, you know, these foreigners that come over, what makes them. I said, they've just got bigger balls, they've just got big courage. They make big decisions and they stick with them and they, they just go forward, you know, and that's. If I can leave you on that rather poor notebook.
- [104:22]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Perfect note, accurate note. Are you happy? For a quick few quick fire questions
- [104:27]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
before we go on, Steve, it's been brilliant.
- [104:29]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
This absolutely. The three non negotiable behaviors.
- [104:36]
Steve McClaren
It must be on time. Yeah, you must be on time. You must outwork the other person. You must outwork Daily Thompson. I remember when I started coaching Daily Thompson used to say, I'm training on Christmas Day. Why? Because I know my opponents won't be working on Christmas Day and I'll have got one up. And that stuck with me. So on Christmas Day, every Christmas Day, I just get my books out, do a little bit of prep. I'll do try and out and out work people. So work hard work. Basically. Third thing is, is enjoy it. Yes. I love humor. I love humor. Gives you energy, you know, I always say, well, what are the things that give you energy? Well, music gives you energy. I know that from Jamaica. That's all we did, play music. And that really energized the group anger. And that's useful in its place to create energy like that. But humor also, because you get some competition with banter, with, with, with humor. That really gets you in that sweet spot.
- [105:58]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
What's the best piece of advice you've ever received and why?
- [106:04]
Steve McClaren
We had Dave Brailsford in at Derby for a chat and, and his first line was, gentlemen, like, life's hard. He said it a little bit more than that, but he said, life's hard. He said we read books, fairy tale books with happy endings. Life is not like that, he says, so expect along the way that it's hard. I thought, oh, my God, you're so right. And I say that to everyone. Say, don't expect you want to be successful, really successful. It's really hard.
- [106:40]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
What is your biggest strength?
- [106:42]
Steve McClaren
I think my resilience. Yeah, I think, you know, I'm big. My energy My enthusiasm.
- [106:50]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
So you're hiding your energy.
- [106:52]
Steve McClaren
And, and, and I love being around football people or people who can teach me things, you know, but then that's business. And you know, I do a lot of that as well. Listen to that. Anything that can teach me psychology and give me a little edge. So, yeah, my, my energy, my resilience, because I've had to, you know, just, well, just off what's next, which biggest weakness. The list is too long. The list is too long. I try and mask it with whatever, but the list is too long. Over prepared, expectation, disappointment. I think, I think the key is what do I try to do? And I say to everyone, everyone should do therapy, by the way, purely because not so much therapy, but everyone should know themselves. Yeah. And that's. I, I found that the key. And I worked with, with Bill for 30 years and he really told me about myself. Yeah. And I go to him now and say, well, what about me? And I said, well, yeah. He says, you weren't a top footballer. So really you just don't have that real belief of a top footballer. And I went, that's a good point. That you know what I mean? So it's important that you know and it's important that you know your triggers. You know, used to tell me in games you trigger, go down the tunnel, count to 10 and then come back. And people used, where are you going? Where are you going? I said, I need to go down that tunnel. I need to kick a door or do something and then come back and compose something. So it's important. I think it's important. You need a mentor. Yeah, you definitely need a mentor or good people around you, which will probably come to.
- [108:49]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
And your golden rule for living a high performance life.
- [108:54]
Steve McClaren
It's, it's the same as what I say about, you know, the three things which, which I treasure the most. You know, respect, which has been on time, hard work and you've got to enjoy it. You've got to have fun while doing it. You know, it's. The exam is, is Saturday. That's the crucial bit. But during that time you've got to relax a bit and enjoy it.
- [109:21]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
And yeah, Steve, that goes right in straight away. It's one of the best episodes we've recorded this podcast after over 400 episodes. Honestly, easily, honestly, it was brilliant.
- [109:34]
Steve McClaren
So interesting.
- [109:35]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Wouldn't say that.
- [109:37]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
An amazing life.
- [109:38]
Steve McClaren
Yeah. I just see your nose growing, that's all.
- [109:43]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
It was honestly a masterclass, honestly.
- [109:47]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Thank you so much, Damien. Jake, I am not joking. When I would immediately put that conversation in the top draw of High Performance podcast, it goes in the God tier of high Performance episodes because it was an insight into an era at Manchester United that I still think people don't fully understand under Sir Alex, but I feel I understand it more than ever before. It was an insight into the modern world of the football manager, where, as we spoke about towards the end, there's a lack of alignment that no one sees and everyone judges. It was an insight into how Steve, in his 60s, still has the, like, he's like a puppy, like, puppy like enthusiasm for culture, for football, for winning, for learning. That's all incredible. But I think the thing that stood out to me most of all is that he's a guy who has seen and experienced so much, yet has a real warmth, like a warmth that we get very rarely from guests that sit in this chair, like incredible generosity. We perhaps should tell the audience that when Steve left, he realized he was an hour late for dinner with his wife, which I know goes against one of his principles of timekeeping is important, but it's because he was being so generous to us with his time and he wanted to offer so much of himself, of his knowledge and of his experience. What did you think?
- [111:14]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
I think what you've just described there, that last quality of his enthusiasm, his warmth, his passion, his curiosity, is his greatest achievement, because I think to have had a career in possibly one of the most brutal industries, you know, like Hasan Wenger described it, like living on a volcano. You never know when it's going to erupt and you might get caught up in it. So I've lived a life in an industry that's so turbulent and chaotic, and to still retain that boyish enthusiasm for a love of the game and a real pleasure to witness it. Imagine being in the dressing room with somebody like that, that loves being out there, that loves developing, that loves being the teacher. I think if you can. If you can live a life like that and get to Steve's age and still possess that passion, you've genuinely found what you should be doing.
- [112:03]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Isn't it also a great reminder not to write people off that people in their 60s are no different to people in their 20s? They've just got 40 years worth of experience to add. You know what I mean?
- [112:15]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Well, you imagine if you're a young manager now taking a job, and we know the trend is often you want to bring in young, fresh, vibrant ideas. If I was young manager, the first phone call I'd be making would be to Steven saying, can you come in. I want you to mentor me. I want you to be another pair of eyes and ears.
- [112:31]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
But I think if he got a job, he'd bring young, fresh, new, vibrant ideas. But with the experience of, oh, Sir Alex did this and Eric did this, and in England, when I got that job, I did this, I think he still has all of that stuff that we think a young person has with the experience.
- [112:48]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Yeah, absolutely. But that's the point that I think you're right. We, like, we label people and then we spend the rest of our lives sort of reinforcing that label rather than rethinking our own preconceptions or our own prejudices. And you're right, he is somebody that could go and do that job really effectively, but he's got a massive role to play in this next generation of developing coaches because he's got so much knowledge and wisdom and experience that he's so eager to share. He's a teacher at heart.
- [113:18]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
What a great conversation. Thank you, mate.
- [113:19]
Host 2 (possibly Damien)
Yeah, thank you. That was brilliant.
- [113:21]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
It was indeed. And if you enjoyed that conversation with Steve, you can, of course, listen to so many football managers and football people on high performance. But more than that, I would love you just to share this conversation with just one person. One person that you think doesn't matter what role they're in, but they could learn something from his leadership skills. I'd love you to do that. Please make sure you hit subscribe. Don't forget, you can watch as well as listen on Apple podcast. You can check us out on YouTube, but please keep enjoying high performance wherever you get your podcasts and Damien and I will see you very soon. Hannah, I just Venmo'd you for dinner.
- [114:01]
Commercial Announcer 2
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- [114:06]
Steve McClaren
What do you mean, spending it right now?
- [114:08]
Commercial Announcer 2
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- [114:12]
Steve McClaren
Stop.
- [114:13]
Host 1 (possibly David or Jake)
Say more.
- [114:14]
Commercial Announcer 2
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- [114:40]
Commercial Announcer 1
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- [115:08]
Steve McClaren
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