The Coach Who Puts People Before Medals | Adam Peaty's Olympic Coach, Mel Marshall

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Coach Who Puts People Before Medals | Adam Peaty's Olympic Coach, Mel Marshall

Podcast: The High Performance Podcast
Hosts: Jake Humphrey & Damien Hughes
Guest: Mel Marshall
Date: May 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this inspirational episode, Jake and Damien are joined by Mel Marshall, renowned as the coach behind Adam Peaty’s decade-long dominance in world swimming. However, as the hosts immediately clarify, this conversation goes far beyond swimming. Mel offers a profound exploration of people-first leadership, sustainable high performance, authentic coaching, and why her real victories are found in developing people, not just winning medals. Laden with golden insights, practical wisdom, and heartwarming stories, the episode is a true masterclass for anyone striving to bring out the best in themselves and others.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Growth Mindset: “Go to sleep an expert and wake up a novice”

(00:02, 01:34, 11:04)

• Mel’s Philosophy: Every day is a new journey. Even with expertise, you must approach life with openness to learn.

  “You go to sleep an expert and you wake up a novice. If you treat life like that, every day is a journey. It's about how do you make the best version of yourself every single day?” (Mel Marshall, 00:02)

• Recognizes the importance of humility and curiosity in staying at the top of your game.

2. Early Influences & Resilience

(02:34)

• Family Foundations: Mel credits her mother, who advised her to use her abilities to the fullest, and her “over-competitive” father, who never let her win, for fostering her drive and resilience.
• Community Inspiration: Childhood best friend Daniel, who had muscular dystrophy, and his family’s positive approach to adversity deeply shaped Mel’s resolve and ethos.

  “People like Dan and Paula and Stuart, they're the real life people in this world that are given a challenging hand, but they make the decision to accept the situation and find the most positive resolution. That's me, really. That's a little bit part of my DNA.” (Mel, 04:59)

3. Competitive Drive: Why Winning Matters

(07:54)

• Mel’s urge to win is both an innate trait and a product of early challenges at home.
• Discusses the interplay between the “little Mel” (her inner fighter) and the evolving ‘bigger Mel’ striving for a broader purpose.

4. Transition to Coaching: Purpose Over Medals

(09:03)

• Mel's difficult Olympic experience as an athlete led her to coaching, aiming to “do a really good job for athletes” based on her frontline experience.
• Core Mission: Empower others to flourish; the aim isn’t medals but personal transformation and lifelong growth.

  “My reason why is very much about just giving people roots to grow and wings to fly.” (Mel, 09:39)

5. Sustainable Success: Questioning and Balance

(11:00, 12:24)

• Sustainable Success = Sustainable Questioning: Continuous curiosity, willingness to get uncomfortable, and honest conversations are vital for maintaining high standards.
• Balance: Athens 2004 taught Mel the necessity of balancing ambition with well-being.

  “How can you push to the highest heights, but also sustain your integrity, sustain the things that matter to you, sustain the pace in which you travel…?” (Mel, 12:24)

6. People First: The Foundation of Performance

(15:33)

• Consistent in her philosophy: People come before performance—and when you put people first, performance takes care of itself.
• Focuses on helping athletes answer two questions at retirement: Are you happy with your career, and are you happy with the person you became?

  “To me, people comes before performance, and if you put people before performance, performance will take care of itself.” (Mel, 15:33)

7. Evolving as a Leader: Seeking Guidance & Authenticity

(17:08, 18:30)

• Mel shares her growth journey through learning from 24 top leaders, including Alex Ferguson and Eddie Jones.
• Importance of adapting to new roles and cultures, learning how to "lead invisibly" and prioritize influence over recognition.
• Authenticity: No two leaders are the same; being true to oneself is crucial.

  “Authenticity is incredibly important, but it's how you have the education and knowledge and mastery to deliver your content and your communication…in your authentic way.” (Mel, 19:58)

8. Commitment Culture & The Power of “Why”

(21:40)

• Commitment cultures get extra performance not by financial motivation, but through shared purpose and love.
• Highlights the often unseen commitment of parents and volunteers as examples.

9. Stories from Club Coaching: Everyone’s Olympics

(25:12)

• Mel recounts stories from club days, underscoring her mantra: every athlete gets to go to “their Olympics,” whatever form that takes.
• Example: Fran Baldwin, a swimmer who exceeded expectations through belief and team spirit.

  “That might be the county championships, that might be the actual Olympic Games. There's no ceilings, there's no boundaries. I just want your energy, enthusiasm and your constant commitment.” (Mel, 25:18)

10. Giving Feedback: Individualization, Timing & Empowerment

(28:18, 32:58 – 37:14)

• Feedback must be personalized. Each athlete receives and processes it differently.
• The coach's job is to prepare the ground for feedback—sometimes asking athletes how and when they want to receive it.
• Critical conversations about character require deeper trust and relationship.

  “See it, say it at the right time with the right understanding of that individual.” (Mel, 32:58) “When you give technical feedback, you're critiquing what they do. When you give character feedback, you're critiquing who they are, which is a much more difficult conversation to have.” (Mel, 37:14)

11. Character Building: Adversity, Challenge, and Preparation

(38:17, 41:15)

• Supports putting hurdles in young athletes’ way to build resilience and independence.
• Shares innovative ways of building resilience—like taking Adam to harsh training camps to simulate unpredictability and adversity.

  “If somebody says the Olympics is now going to be in a shark infested pool with lane ropes, you've got to have the mindset and the character going, I'll be in there first.” (Mel, 43:01)

12. Mental vs. Physical: The Real Key to Winning

(44:09)

• Success comes from a balance of mental and physical skills, but without mental resilience and belief, you can't realize your physical potential.

  “Your full physical potential is down to your ability to believe in yourself, your ability to perform under pressure without perceiving stress…” (Mel, 44:17)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You go to sleep an expert and you wake up a novice.” (Mel, 00:02 / 01:34 / 11:04)
• “Life is what you give it.” (Mel, 45:29)
• “To me, people come before performance, and if you put people before performance, performance will take care of itself.” (Mel, 15:33)
• “Kill them with kindness.” (Mel, 23:40)
• “If you want more, you have to be more.” (Mel, 11:42)
• On feedback: “You have to have it from the people that are really, really close to you.” (Mel, 29:16)
• On adversity and preparation: “You train people's character… how you can positively push and challenge somebody in innovative ways and take them to new heights, that to me, is the beauty of coaching.” (Mel, 43:36)
• Three non-negotiables: “Effort, fun, and reality.” (Mel, 44:44)
• Book recommendation: “The Subtle Art of Not Giving a…” (Mel, 45:02)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Growth mindset & philosophy – 00:02, 01:34, 11:04
• Family & childhood influences – 02:34
• Competitive drive & internal motivation – 07:54
• Coaching purpose and transition – 09:03
• Sustainable questioning & balance – 11:00, 12:24
• People-first leadership – 15:33
• Seeking guidance & authenticity – 17:08, 18:30
• Commitment culture – 21:40
• Impactful stories from club coaching – 25:12
• Feedback strategies – 28:18, 32:58 – 37:14
• Character development through challenge – 38:17, 41:15
• Physical vs. mental performance – 44:09
• Quick-fire questions – 44:44

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Practical Takeaways

• Treat each day as a learning opportunity; do not rest on expertise.
• Prioritize human connection and individual well-being above short-term outcomes.
• Feedback must be tailored, well-timed, and empower the recipient.
• Building resilience through adversity is essential—prepare people for unpredictability.
• A culture of shared purpose and commitment drives sustainable results.
• Celebrate every individual’s journey, not just the elite achievements.
• Leadership is about authenticity, continual questioning, and sometimes, doing nothing to let insight emerge.

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Episode in a Nutshell

This conversation with Mel Marshall exemplifies the human side of high performance: it's not about medals, but the growth, resilience, and character built along the way—by both coach and athlete. Mel’s wisdom applies broadly, from sport to business to parenting, offering inspiration to anyone who wants to “get people to their Olympics, whatever that may be.”

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For Listeners:

If you coach, lead, parent, or support others—this episode will challenge you to put people before medals, measure your wins in character as well as results, and continually ask yourself: are you creating a space for people to become their very best?

Transcript

[Mel Marshall]

You're going to go to your Olympics, whatever that might be. That might be the county championships. That might be the actual Olympic Games. There's no ceilings, there's no boundaries. I just want your energy, enthusiasm, and your constant commitment, and we'll get you to your Olympics, whatever that might be. You go to sleep an expert and you wake up a novice. I just think that if you treat life like that, every day is a journey. It's about how do you make the best version of yourself every single day?

[Podcast Host (Jake)]

Today we're revisiting one of the most loved episodes in high performance history, our conversation with the phenomenal Mel Marshall. Mel is the woman who coached Adam Peaty to multiple Olympic gold medals, a number of world records, and a decade of dominance that made him the greatest breaststroke swimmer the sport has ever seen. But this episode was never really about swimming. It's about how you can build people up, how you can lead teams, and how you create cultures where everyone, from the most talented to the least, finds their version of gold. What you're about to hear on this podcast is a masterclass in people management. How to give feedback that actually lands with impact, how to develop character and not just performance. And why, for Mel, the real win isn't the gold medal, it's who you become on your way to getting it. I'd love to welcome to High Performance the brilliant Mel Marshall.

[Mel Marshall]

I think you go to sleep an expert and you wake up a novice. And I just think that if you treat life like that, every day is a journey. It's about how do you make the best version of yourself every single day. That's what my life's about as a person, as a performer, as a professional. And I love it. I literally, I love it. I wake up in the morning and don't get me wrong, I still have the days where I just like, oh, come on, is it over yet? But most of the time, the majority of my response is right, what's out there to explore? How can I get better? And how can I win life today? I suppose.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

And what do you do when you're having one of those ugh days?

[Mel Marshall]

Well, I put a cold Kopperberg in the fridge and I wait till 7:30.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

That's high performance right there.

[Podcast Host (Damien Hughes)]

So, Mel, will you take us back to your origin story? Because I do know a little bit about your background, and I'm interested in when you first developed that growth mindset, because you weren't coming from an environment where high performance was necessarily all around you.

[Mel Marshall]

Yeah. I mean, it comes from My mum and my dad really and Jake, I've heard you talk about, you know, your history and your adversity and does that, you know, certainly shape you for the future? And I absolutely think it does. You know, my mum, I won't go into too much detail but she's had, you know, a few challenges around physicality over the, over the years and she sort of sat me down when I was about 9 years of age and she looked at me across the kitchen table and she said to me, look, you've got two arms at work, you've got two legs at work, you've got energy and you've got enthusiasm. Go out and give the world the very best you've got and don't come home until you have. And that sort of, that was really born in my childhood. And then I have an over competitive father who literally would not want to lose anything. And you know, there was just no mercy, it was like, no, you can go in goal and I, the 35 year old strongman will strike the ball at 100 miles an hour and you will learn to cope and either professional table tennis player will not teach you how to serve, I will just serve at you. But that in itself was a life lesson, it was a competitive hurdle I had to get over and it was the foundations of me, my competitive nature really. And interestingly I fought and fought and fought and you know, the day that I did beat him, he stopped racing. So yeah, so yeah, he retired. He goes like, basically, no, we're not, we're not, we're not running racing anymore, we're not swimming racing anymore. So. But again I thank both my parents for, you know, what they taught me and those real key lessons and you know, competition's the bread of life, isn't it? And I love being competitive and I've had to learn how to be competitive and also be compassionate as life's gone on. So yeah, I think that's the foundations of where I've come from. And I had a best friend called Daniel and he had a condition called muscular dystrophy and it was a very, very severe disability and he was given the prognosis to live to the age of 12. He lived in my village and I went to school with him and you know, we did things that kids do and I was surrounded and it was probably the most inspirational story I've ever been witnessed to living was his mum and dad called Paula and Stuart. They never saw that he was supposed to make it till 12. They said, right, we accept this challenge. And we're going to make the very best of this boy's life. And he passed away at 36 years of age, but he met Rihanna, he met every single Tottenham player. He went to every football game. He came to meet with me to watch my championships. They would hang out all the Star wars, the Game of Thrones. You wouldn't believe it. It's almost like he's a member of Hollywood or something. But to me, like, people like Dan and Paula and Stuart, they're the real life people in this world that are given a challenging hand, but they make the decision to accept the situation and find the most positive resolution. And I would say that is. That's kind of. That's me, really. That's a little bit part of my DNA.

[Podcast Host (Damien Hughes)]

So when did you discover your talent for swimming then? Because like Jake said in the introduction, you were an incredible athlete in your own right. So tell us a little bit about that journey of discovery.

[Mel Marshall]

I started swimming when I was around seven years of age. Again, there was some kind of history around my parents and whether or not I had a physical condition that would maybe show later on in life. So it was basically like, right, swimming exercises all the muscles. So you're going swimming. That journey started at 4. The first fallout with my dad started at 5 because the independent female in me at 5 was convinced that she knew how to swim on her own and proceeded to drown in the small pool in Spalding. And, you know, then I just went three or four times a week. And then I saw a swimming club and I started. They were in two lanes and I was in the public lane. And then I was like, right, I'll try and beat them. They kind of spotted me. And then I went from there. Really? And then again, that sort of competitive animal in me was just like, right, I want to win the lane. I want to win my age group. I want to win the club. I want to win the be the best in the club, and I want to then be the best in the county. And just never really gave up. Just like my boss now says, I'm like a Jack Russell with a really good bone. I just never give up.

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[Podcast Host (Damien Hughes)]

But the obvious question Mel is why? Why did you feel you had to win?

[Mel Marshall]

Because it's just who I am. It's. I've just. That's what I do. I guess it's. I've just always wanted to be good. I've always wanted to be the best version of myself. I've always wanted to win. And again probably because my dad would never let me that, you know, 7, 8, 9, 10 year old development for me was like well I'm going to find a way to win here no matter what it takes and the level is really high and I've got to get to that standard that's just in me. It's a blessing and it's a curse. And like most people you have a there's the little Mel isn't there? And then there's the big mellow. And you often to find the best version of yourself, the little Mel with the insecurities and the little fighter is in there. And then you try and overtake it with the Mel that's kind of evolving and growing as time goes on.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

And you went from your parents setting you challenges to struggling in that pool in Spalding to wanting to be the best at the club, you ended up as the best in the world winning gold medals, traveling to major tournaments and then you became a coach. What is it about being a coach that works for you? We had someone on the podcast called Susie Marr who spoke about infinite purpose. You may have heard it where it just the never ending purpose in your life. So as a coach, what do you see as your infinite purpose?

[Mel Marshall]

Well, I'll take you back to where I started and found my reason why. So in the Olympic Games in 2004, you know, I went into the Olympic Games ranked fastest in the world and I came out with a broken heart. As you know, they Only give out 56 medals every Olympics and most people will Leave with a broken heart, good old games, that it's all good fun, good statistics. Anyway, I digress. But, yeah, my reason why I was born from that moment, because the competitor in me said, I think I can do a much, not much better, but I think I can do a really good job for athletes. With everything that I know now that I've had frontline experience of, I think that I can do a really good job for athletes. That coupled with my competitive spirit, that coupled with my probably innovative coaching thinking, that's sort of how I found myself into coaching. And sustainable success is founded upon sustainable questioning and this sort of thirst and drive to just try and get better. And, you know, there's winning once and there's winning twice and there's winning better each time. And you've always got to. And me and Adam talk about this regularly, but you've always got to start the next one with nothing. And so you earn it all again. And that taps into your ego, that taps into your technicality, that taps into your processes. But to me, I think that's how I found myself in coaching. And my reason why has always been really strong, is I want to illuminate people to flourish on the highest of stages. I want to challenge people when they get that platform to do great things with it. My reason why is very much about just giving people wings to roots to grow and wings to fly. And Damien, you've said that to me before and I've stolen it. So if that gets some good intellectual property and hits, that's courtesy of Damien Hughes about two years ago in a service station somewhere.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Love that.

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Could you go a bit deeper on.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

What was it you said? Sustainable success comes from sustainable questioning.

[Mel Marshall]

Like I said earlier, you go to bed an expert and you wake up a novice and when you've got a performance that is good, that is world leading, you really have to manufacture and know what to manufacture to get your motivation to keep questioning, keep asking, is there more? How do we find it? When you're on the run the first time, it's all new and it's all, we can try this and we can do that and we will get this. When, when you're trying to do it for the fourth, the fifth, the sixth time, you really have to manufacture that. Almost like uncomfortableness, as in, no, it's not, it's not good enough. How do we have that critical conversation? What is the elephant in the room that we need to discuss? What is that, you know, conversation that we've not had? Or what is that technicality I don't understand that. I'm frightened of the detail. You've really got to push yourself to, you know, because it could quite easily just float along and you could just ride this kind of high. But if you want more, you have to be more. And if you want it to look better, it has to be better. And so that for me is. That's the point, really. I love that you pushed over there,

[Podcast Host (Damien Hughes)]

that 2004 experience, Mel, but I'm fascinated in terms of going back to that, that you were that competitive animal that was going in there as a favorite for those Athens Games. What happened then that enabled you to discover that, that powerful sense of why?

[Mel Marshall]

I think looking back now, and I actually, I actually did an autoethnography on the relationship between stress and burnout. And there's a whole host of reasons of which I, you know, I'm in a place now where I'm incredibly thankful for it. But to me, the thing that I would summarize that situation with is balance. You know, in terms of when you. Jacobs, you've got a real thirst. I can see when you talk to other people around that thing with, you know, a dad and a high achiever. A dad and a high achiever, and it kind of pulls you either side. And what I learned through those Athens Olympics was the power of balance. How can you push to the highest heights, but also sustain your integrity, sustain the things that matter to you, sustain the pace in which you travel up through your work. And that was the thing that, that taught me was the power of balance and everything. And you've got to know what your inner balance is, because I think that some people have the ability to churn work and it doesn't compromise certain things. I think once it compromises your happiness, your well being, your ability to drive harder, then you need to recheck where your balance is. But I think that answers your question. Damien around. What did the Athens Olympics teach me about high performance? It was the power of making sure you make progress, but how you maintain a balance, to strike your hardest punch.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

So you've got that in terms of me completely right, Mel. This push and pull constantly between fatherhood and wanting to go out and be a high achiever and the big picture about what's it all about. The answer I always come back to is it should just be about being a dad. But then I feel like there's something else there as well. What are the questions that I'm maybe not asking myself about how to. How to get the balance?

[Mel Marshall]

Do you think Maybe it's not the questions you're asking of yourself. Maybe it's the questions you're asking the people around you. I think the thing is, it's ask the people around you, but also it's constant checking in because, you know, ultimately,

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

what with yourself or with other people?

[Mel Marshall]

Everybody. Your team, you know, and the team involves your home team and your professional team. And I think it's about how you regularly check in. Like, it's almost like we presume family and friends will just always be there. We don't ring. We don't check in. But yet at work, we would do every kind of debrief that you would ever imagine to make things better. Yet in our personal lives, we, like, stop the debrief because we just presume, oh, that's tick. That's all set up. Well, I just think if you want your relationships to evolve, if you want family to involve you, want your personal life to evolve, it's how you debrief and keep having conversations about the things that matter. And again, just keeping that balance in check. And sometimes we're actually doing a better job than we think. And sometimes it's okay to strive and be the role model in what it is to try and be the best version of yourself. And, you know, I think that's okay.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Your job, basically, right, is to win medals for Adam and to help him win Olympic gold. So what if you feel that he's not spending enough time with his newborn child? Or I'm not sure that he's caring enough about his friends who've always been there for him. Do you have that conversation with him? Which kind of might cause even more issues for you, winning the medals because you're actually saying, go and have some home time.

[Mel Marshall]

Yeah, I think when I started coaching, I was very in tune with my moral purpose straight away. And to me, people comes before performance, and if you put people before performance, performance will take care of itself. So if Adam's happy, if Adam's in check with his family, if Adam's home team's good, if Adam's feeling like his, you know, his energy cup is being filled with the right things, you know, he will perform. And that's the bit, to me that I take care of first. You know, whenever Adam, you know, achieves things, I'm always super, super happy for him because, God, he's an incredible athlete to work with. But to me, the win is that when he walks away from this, he'll be able to reflect and go, I did it right. And when I asked him the question at the end of his career, who are you without those medals? If he can answer me that, then I've won in coaching because to me, medals is one part of the balance. The person is the 110%, the other part. And my job as a coach and that community coach in my heart, that I am, that person that is in touch with my moral purpose in this journey of coaching is very much around. They have to be able to answer both, are you happy with the career that you had? And are you happy with the person you became through the triumphs and adversities that you faced? And if they can answer yes to both of that, then that to me is all I'll ever need in terms of recognition.

[Podcast Host (Damien Hughes)]

So who helps you now, then, as a coach and now that we transfer from. You're not an athlete now, you're a coach and a person who coaches you now with keeping those questions honest and allowing you to retain that balance.

[Mel Marshall]

I went on a journey a couple of years ago, Damien, as you know, because I came and interviewed you, and again, just I went and I was a bit lost in my leadership, and I was like, what do I need? What do I want? Where am I at? Who am I? Where do I sit in this kind of this new role? And I just went and, you know, I spent time with 24 different leaders from different places, you know, including people like Alex Ferguson, Eddie Jones, yourself, Adrian Morehouse, some really great people, and just felt myself growing from that experience. So I guess when I'm lost and I don't know how to find the answers, to me, sometimes Winnie the Pooh is right. Sometimes the best thing to do is to do nothing. And then sometimes the other side is you have to find the answers that you don't have. And sometimes that explorative space where you don't quite know what you're looking for. Like, when I'm not sure whether I want to go on a run, and then I go on a run with a high performance podcast, I'm like, I wasn't sure that I was looking what I was looking for, but actually, thank you, Joe Malone, this morning, for telling me what you've told me. You know, to me, it's that always have someone that you can be a sounding board to so you can offload to reload, take time to explore. Sometimes you don't know what you're looking for until you explore. And the third one is just keep asking questions, keep checking in.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

What answer did you find, Mel, when you had that, that time out and you went and spoke to all those people.

[Mel Marshall]

Well, it's interesting. And Damien, you absolutely nailed it. And like, you literally, I don't think you quite understand how thankful I was after that conversation around how you. You basically put a framework around a lot of lost thoughts. And I was. I'd come from a program where I was. Where my position in my leadership role was all up front, all doing everything, you know, all singing and dancing. And then. And then I came into a system which is an amazing system, but I was like, I'm not sure where my role is here. And the. The culture was still a great culture, but it was a different culture to what I had delivered when. When I delivered it as the sort of the leader of my program. But once I found out what rules I was playing against, I was able to come up with this kind of new skill set. So, Damien, you've talked about before, I am 110% commitment culture leader. That's just who I am. Now I sit inside a system that isn't like that, but it's still working incredibly well. I've had to learn how to lead in a different way. Like, I'm very upfront leader, whereas I've had to learn how do I invisibly lead here, how do I influence, how do I create the changes that I want and not get the recognition that I would like, which is really important for me as a person to sort of, like, be seen. It's love for me, you know, leadership. You know, in my old role, I felt a lot of love, and so I had to learn this kind of new skill set of. Right, okay, Mel, put your ego out of the way, and it's not about you, and you're not going to save the day and come in here on your giant horse. You have to learn how to make the changes quietly and an influence around the edges. And so that was one of the things I learned also with those guys, the people that I met, what a fascinating group of people. But authenticity was the thing that I learned. You know, I met 24 great people, but none of them did it the same way. And I think authenticity is incredibly important, but it's how you have the education and knowledge and mastery to deliver your content and your communication and the way you go about your business in your authentic way. And I think that's where you really take people with you when you can have all of those things. But amazing things are like, people like Catherine Granger just on the opening call was just like, sport matters incredibly and deeply to this country. And I'd forgotten that. And then people like Chelsea Worrey was head of performance for UK sport. She just said, you need to know yourself, your inner self and how you're projecting to everybody else and just amazing things like, like that. Like Paula Dunn, who's in British para athletics. She said how to give critical, difficult feedback with emotionally sensitive preparation and delivery and just.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

I'm making notes like you wouldn't believe right here. Would you just explain the importance, you know, through the work with Damian as well, of commitment culture for people listening to this. You know, we have a lot of teachers, we have a lot of business leaders, we have a lot of people working in teams and they're always looking for, for help and advice when it comes to cultures. What is it? Why does it work so well for you?

[Mel Marshall]

I think it works so well for me is because it aligns with my moral purpose. And I think if you're in line with your moral purpose and you're in line with your reason why, I think there's this 10% factor, the 20% factor that you can get out of people for no finance, for nothing, just because they're all aligned to one mission. And it's really easily seen. I always talk about the endurance of parents. So when I was in my old club job, you know, the endurance of some of these parents at five in the morning, till seven at night, selling on the tombola to help raise funds, helping with charity missions, you know, helping at the meets and stuff. I'm like, their moral purpose was. Sounds really, really soft and fleet, but love. And they were so in line with their, you know, how much they loved their children and how much they love what their children were doing. They gave you an extra 20%. And I just think it comes back to. That is you. It comes back to me is like you've, you create a real commitment culture. You have to lead, inform and inspire people to fall in love with the same things that are important to you, but also to fall in love with the journey they're going to go on to reach a destination. And even if you win or lose at the end of the destination, the journey that you create to get there, they will always look back on as something that, God, I'm glad I took that opportunity.

[Podcast Host (Damien Hughes)]

How common is phrases like love? Because I'm interested in that club period where you were delivering phenomenal results, but you had the chance to shape it. How unique was that in your experience? Mel?

[Mel Marshall]

I think a lot of people do it. I think when you look at the volunteer communities of sport. And people, you know, people do it for the love. They don't do it for, you know, the finance or anything. But if I look at why did we make something possible in an impossible situation? And it really was, Damien, it was just about daring to love something, naively pursuing it and just not giving up on it. And if I look at the love and passion and commitment I gave the kids, the parents, the committee, and those first six years of my job, and then I look at what I needed in the last two years of my job and how much I got back, oh, it was tenfold. Even now, if I ring one of the parents that I, you know, Rhianna Sheehan's dad, you know, I took his daughter from 12 all the way to 18. She had a great journey. If my gas boiler went in the middle of the night, he would come and help me because I gave my full commitment and full passion and everything to those kids at the time. So I think it's what we're so afraid of now is we live in a society, and systemically, if there are a hundred things that go well, most people pick up on the one thing that's not great. And I just think that we get crushed and crushed and crushed. But I think you've just got to keep coming with the 99 things that are great every day and find those things and not let the one thing crush you down. One of my swimmers said to me once, kill them with kindness. And, God, it's powerful. It's like, you know, when that road rage person comes across and tries to, you know, cut you up. I remember being dressed as an elf one Christmas, and I thought, you know what? I'm going to kill this guy with kindness because I'm going to get out and dance in the middle of the road like an elf. And everyone was, like, cheering in the area, but it's just like, you know, I was in control of the situation because I was like, I'm going to kill you with some kindness here, mate.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Love it.

[Podcast Host (Damien Hughes)]

Would you tell us some of the successes then that you had in that club environment? Beyond the obvious of seeing Adam and his emergence, I'm interested in some of those other human stories. Like, I love the idea of the guy coming to fit your gas boiler.

[Mel Marshall]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (Damien Hughes)]

What are the sort of stories that still light you up and keep you warm at night?

[Mel Marshall]

Oh, there's so many, Damien. And, you know, I'm a community. I'm a performance coach, but there's still a community coach in me at heart. And, you know, I took a group of kids and they were from the age of 12 and I saw them all the way through to 18 really. And there were so many stories of triumphs. But we had this mantra of, you're going to go to your Olympics, whatever that might be. That might be the county championships, that might be the actual Olympic games. There's no ceilings, there's no boundaries. I just want your energy, enthusiasm and your constant commitment and we'll get you to your Olympics, whatever that might be. That might be to finish swimming and go on to college. That might be to do your A levels and balance that out with swimming at the same time. And if I look at what came out of that program, I started that program and it had 12 regional standard swimmers. I had four lanes, I had dodgy lane ropes, I had 30 meter pool that had not been emptied in 45 years, would regularly break. And in the end I left. I had Adam who won the Olympics. I had a young guy called Lewis who got a bronze at the Paralympics in the same year. I had two kids on scholarships to America. I have kids with thousands and thousands of memories around what we did. Like we would go, there was no gym facilities, so we would just run in the local town centre. And at Christmas I'd make everybody dress up as Santa Claus, including Kyle's dad, who hated running. And we would have all the kids around the city of centre of Derby just running around as Santa Claus. And I'd have them doing, you know, Christmas challenges. Now in my little mind it was like, well, actually if I pretend by taking them bowling and doing fun barbecues, then what I'll do is I won't lose a week of training before Christmas when they all normally slack it off. So. But there was a real good story around a girl called Fran Baldwin. And now Fran, she wasn't the most talented swimmer and she was one of three, three girls. And her dad brought her the first time and he was like, look, we're not getting too involved. We're going to go a couple times a week, eight years down the line. He's got one kid in America, he's been on the team manager for seven trips and all that sort of stuff. Anyway, so Fran Baldwin just really encompasses everything that we tried to do in that program because I think we got her to her Olympics, which was a national championships, and she, you know, the qualification standard that she needed to do, she was the anchor leg in the relay and she just blew something out of nowhere. But that to me is the power of sport. And you can have all the technical manuals in the world and all of the detail from all of the best scientists in the world, but it's human connectivity, it's enthusiasm and it's emotion that finds those brilliant moments. Look at the pyramids, right? You didn't see a spreadsheet there, did you? You saw like, we want to do this and we're going to get all these people in one place with a great vision and we're going to make something impossible happen. And that's what people go to work for. They go to work for that human connectivity and that, you know, that moment. That's the beauty of sport, isn't it, guys? It's like it's the only thing left whereby, because of the cutthroat nature of it in some ways, but it lifts people out of their seats in the living room.

[Podcast Host (Damien Hughes)]

What would you say has been the best piece of feedback you've had from one of your athletes?

[Mel Marshall]

Probably Adam, actually, just around. He wants the feedback quick, he wants it honest and he wants in a safe environment. So he doesn't, you know, I'd said to him in the past, you know, I was. I didn't know how much, how much honesty he. I was always, I would always be honest with him, but how much of what I saw he wanted to hear in terms. And he was like, I want to hear it now. He changes his mind sometimes because he doesn't. That would probably be the most honest, one of the best bits of feedback and also has quite a lot of 360 feedback from staff and coaches and athletes. And what was quite nice about that was I was doing way better than I thought I thought I was, which was lovely because I just thought. I actually thought I was much worse than this. But people think I'm actually alright because again, as a leader, as a coach, you're the one out front, aren't you? You're often, when you're trying to be pioneering and the first time of doing anything, it's like, God, I'm actually not quite sure, but I've got conviction in my choices and I think it's a calculated risk and we're going to go for it. But you are often getting that trusted feedback from a source that you respect and knows the situation well enough. I think we get a little bit buzzwordy, don't we, with feedback? It's like, I'll just throw a bit. It's like, no, you have to have it from the people that are really, really close to you.

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[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

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[Mel Marshall]

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[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

I've got quite a few questions about feedback if you don't mind. I want to dive into because I think it'll be so useful for people that listen to this podcast to hear. So first of all, you said you weren't sure how much you wanted to hear. Do you start with minimal amounts of feedback and build it up and get more honest and not necessarily more brutal, but more blunt until you think, oh, I'm not sure this is working and you're watching the athletes reaction, or do you start from the other direction where you give them everything and see how they react and maybe start to pull it back?

[Mel Marshall]

I think it goes back to my point earlier when I said about people before performance and I think when you're giving that feedback, you've got to know, of course, see it, say it, but see it, say it at the right time with the right understanding of that individual. So I've got nine athletes and not one of them would receive feedback in the same way. I've got one particular athlete that would be really adverse to receiving feedback. So I think when you give ultimately your overall goal is you want that person, that organization, that culture to grow and progress. That's the purpose and intention of your feedback. You have to understand unless you understand the people that are receiving the feedback, your intention might be good, but it may not be received that way. So I think the question is to ask the right question first. Okay, I've got some pretty critical feedback here. How would you like me to deliver this? Is it the right time for you? Is it something you want to grow on? Give them the choice to receive it, then that way not only are they empowered by receiving it, they are empowered by the fact that they made the choice to receive it. So you get a double win and then the final piece is then because it was their idea to receive it, then it's their idea to own it and change it. So it's basically double manipulation. Really.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Very smart, very smart. So the athlete that doesn't like or won't accept feedback, is it not your job as their coach to coach them in the important ability to accept feedback?

[Mel Marshall]

Absolutely. And you know, for me it's also as well, I will always go to a point where I will see that person's capability to grow. So if I think it's going to damage my relationship and they're probably just not at that space yet where they can grow in that time, I will wait. So to me, again, it's the right time, the right timing, the right type and the right place. And if it's not the right time for the feedback for them, it's never going to. All you're going to do is damage your relationship. So you have to wait. Timing is massively key. Like I saw things.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

It's hard though, isn't it, because you just want to give them the feedback and improve them as quick as possible.

[Mel Marshall]

Absolutely. And we are in a time based sport, you know, we have got, we live from hundreds to hundredths and weeks to week and days to days. But I think if your intuition gives you the, if you know the person well enough, your intuition, you know, sometimes, sometimes I go back, it sounds really weird, but sometimes the best thing to do can still be to do nothing because your source of feedback is one potential source of growth. Also them working out on their own and that exploratory learning is also a source of growth. And ultimately you've got to. It's risk versus reward. If the risk and you have to have that critical conversation is going to give you a reward, then you need to have that critical conversation. If the risk outweighs the reward, that you're going to damage it and the person's going to be destructed afterwards and the momentum that they don't want already made up was going to be lost. It's not the right time to give the feedback.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

And the final sort of question on this whole feedback thing is how you give the feedback? What do you do? How do you empower them to come up with the answer? Do you empower them to come up with the answer? Do you just lay it on the line and simply say Something's not good enough.

[Mel Marshall]

Again, I go back to the person. I have nine athletes and one athlete would want. Can I have the instructions for what's next and a plan and a detailed A, B and C. And I'll just do that. And I'm happy with the. That other people want shared ownership of their journey and they want to be heard and seen and included and explore with you and go on the journey together. So I guess it's knowing you can have a team goal, but you have to have an individual focus. And I think if you have that individual focus and realize that not everybody's the same, not everybody's going to get to Destination X the same way. Not everyone's going to get there at the same speed the same time. I think then you start really empowering the people that you work with with. You know, you do you at the end of the day. And it should be the same principle when you give feedback or what's right for that individual person at this time, that's going to create the better performance for the overall collective.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Brilliant. Can I ask you one final question about this? How different is it giving them feedback on a technical element like you need to improve your breaststroke compared to. Let's say you're watching a swimmer and you know they've lost their motivation or they think they're giving 100%, but you actually know that there's more. Do you deliver it differently if it's something psychological rather than something physical?

[Mel Marshall]

Absolutely. Because a thing is when you give technical feedback, you're critiquing what they do. When you give character feedback, you're critiquing who they are, which is a much more difficult conversation to have. And so I think that's the chemistry piece, the relationship piece, the relationship and how good that relationship really cements, how fluid and how connected that communication, how quickly that can happen. So my message on the feedback thing around when you have to have those critical conversations, it's like. Like the power of your relationship at the first space will determine how much feedback and how quickly that can be coped with under stress and pressure.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Brilliant.

[Podcast Host (Damien Hughes)]

I think there's a really incredible skill that you have, Mel, that you've taken some of these kids at 12 years of age and now you're dealing with adults and you still have the ability to put their relationships at the front and center. Would you explain a little bit about. Because there's lots of parents that listen to this or teachers. Is there a difference in terms of engaging a child in many effects as opposed to dealing with an elite Olympic athlete.

[Mel Marshall]

There's some similarities and there's some difference. I think for me around parents, I call it the competitive hurdles and loving eyes can never see. So like when you're a parent, I don't know. I have got two jogs and I am crazy about them. But I think there's this, you know, reluctance to let, let the kids, let the kids get over the competitive hurdles themselves. And if we remove all of that. So if there's a hundred meters track, right, and there are 20 competitive hurdles and once they've got over those 20 competitive hurdles, they are going to be more full of people, more determined, more capable, more able to cope with the challenges that are going to come their way in adulthood, then that's a good route for them to go. If parents, coaches remove those competitive hurdles when they get to the end, when they get to 18, they won't be able to cope with anything because they thought that it was an easy smooth road. So my thing to anybody that's working with those development years is put as many competitive hurdles in their way and effectively help them to get over them. But also if they can't, help them understand why they can't. You know, when Adam was in his young years, people thought I was crazy. I took him on a training camp to Zambia. I took him on a bike ride as well where we cycled 500 kilometers across the. Basically it was 42 degree heat. And the reason I wanted to take him there was because to me I wanted to help his character understand, you know, life isn't easy, it's not a bed of roses. It is difficult, it is challenging. There will be good days, there will be bad days. People that you know and love will pass away, there will be divorces, there will be all those things and sport's the same thing. There will be wins, there will be losses. And it's just about how you triumph through all of those and accept that that is the journey that you're on, on. And I just think that less is more like I do think now. Unfortunately, you know, I use an example, my friend's 23 year old son, he went to a job interview the other day with 1400 other people for a 25 grand a year job. He came from a school that basically gave him participation medals when he was younger. So he thinks that, well, I participated, I should get something for this. We're setting him up to fail because that's not how the world works when you get past the age of 18. And I just think now we're, we so want to helicopter them out of all the challenges. It's like, no, we have to let them learn and grow from each challenge and just be there to support them through those challenges, not remove the challenges.

[Podcast Host (Damien Hughes)]

So there's some brilliant parallels there with say, reading about what Bob Bowman did when he developed Michael Phelps's character. So the story of him deliberately breaking his goggles before a race to see how he could cope with the adversity of having to swim without them or, or turning the lights off or not giving him a drink of water that as an outsider you might appear cruel or you wonder why you're doing it and you've explained why. Have you ever done anything like that with Adam to develop his competitive instincts and his ability to deal with adversity?

[Mel Marshall]

Yeah, 100% all the time. That's everything we do. And I think it was Richard Dennett that said about it, wasn't it? He goes in terms of how do you simulate what's required in your practice and do it at a higher level so that when you, you know, come under pressure, you just revert to type and albeit it's not the same as the military for sure, but that's everything that we do. You know, I would over prepare Adam so that he would be. The race itself would be easy. And if you listen to him talk now, I mean he talks about it's just two lunch of the baths but you know, I can't remember who said it but it takes a, takes a genius to work out to make it that simple in the end. But everything, you know, I've done so many things with him like okay, when I took him to Zambia on a training camp, you know, when I went to Zambia in the October in this OYDC place, the water in the 50 meter pool was blue. When I went in January it was green and it did have no visibility at the bottom. And they did say that it would open at 8 o' clock and it didn't open till 10:30 so we had to climb over the gates every day. They did say there would be breakfast at 8 and there was not breakfast ever. And they did say there would be cutlery and you would get a fork for your cereal. And the purpose when I took those 12 kids to that camp was because I wanted them to with, you know, it's unpredictable but you can either react to it or you can deal with it. And what I left there with, I left there with 12 soldiers really in some ways, 12 life soldiers that were not going to React to what came their way. They were just going to deal with it and just, you know, not make a mountain out of a molehill. And then fast forward three years. When Adam went to the Rio Olympics, he had all of his kit stolen, his technical kit, his everything. And we had 48 hours. Now I was running around like a blue ass, whatever, trying to find all the technical kit. But he was, he was still in the T shirt that he traveled in three days afterwards with a rash on his armpit. But he'd almost. He'd got this mantra and developed this mindset through a series of challenges that we set him that he was just like, if I have to swim in this dirty T shirt with a rash on my armpit, so be it. And it's to me, I've always said it's about if somebody says the Olympics is now going to be in a shark infested pool with lame ropes, you've got to have the mindset and the character going, I'll be in there first. See you in there. And that's. To me, you do that. You know, I just think you train people's character, you train their technicality, you train their character, you train their physicality. But to me, how you can positively push and challenge somebody in innovative ways and take them to new heights, that to me, is the beauty of coaching.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Mel, what a brilliant, brilliant episode. We're about to move on to our quickfire questions, but before we do that, the final question for you, and this is an interesting one because we normally ask this to the athlete, but having a coach on, we can't ask you the question. With your athletes when they're competing, what percentage is their success down to their mental approach and what percent is down to the physical side?

[Mel Marshall]

I think it's a balance of both, Jake. I think that you can't do one without the other. But I think in terms of reaching your full potential, your full physical potential is down to your. Your ability to believe in yourself, your ability to perform under pressure without perceiving stress, and your ability to, you know, bring the best version of yourself to the most difficult situation and deliver great.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Right. Quick fire questions. Three non negotiable behaviors that you and all the people around you have to buy into.

[Mel Marshall]

Effort, fun and reality.

[Hims Ad Voice]

Fun.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

That's a rare one. I'm pleased it's in there.

[Podcast Host (Damien Hughes)]

What advice would you give to a teenage male just starting out?

[Mel Marshall]

Do it all again exactly the same way.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

If you could recommend one book for our listeners and our viewers to get their heads into what book would you recommend?

[Mel Marshall]

It's called the Subtle Art of Not Giving a. Yeah, it's excellent. It's really, really good.

[Podcast Host (Damien Hughes)]

What's your greatest strength and what's your greatest weakness?

[Mel Marshall]

Greatest strength, I think, is innovative creativity. Greatest weakness is finding the ability to believe in myself when others challenge myself.

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[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Are you happy?

[Mel Marshall]

100%.

[Podcast Host (Damien Hughes)]

And finally, what's your one golden rule for living a high performance life?

[Mel Marshall]

Life is what you give it.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. We always have these conversations away from the podcast, me and David, about which is your favorite episode. And we normally come up with about 20, but I think we might have

[Podcast Host (Damien Hughes)]

just your number one.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

I think we might have just recorded the one that is top of the list. Mel, man, thank you so much. Do you know what? We often say that the beauty of this podcast is that we speak to someone like you. You're a swimming coach, but we haven't even mentioned swimming, which shows that you're so much more than just a swimming coach in the same way that your athletes are not just swimmers and the business people are not just business people. You know, we're all. We're basically all people and we're all learning things that can all be applied to everyone else's lives. And I promise you there will be tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people that will listen to this episode and take away stuff that will improve their lives. So honestly, thank you for being so honest, so vulnerable, so open. It's brilliant.

[Mel Marshall]

Thank you. And if you are, when you have PT on, say mine's the best ever. See if you can match that.

[Podcast Host (Interviewer)]

Right, let's see.

[Podcast Host (Jake)]

I love that episode. I'm lucky enough. I've known Mel for a number of years, but when she recounts that story

[Podcast Host (Damien Hughes)]

of her and Adam having to.

[Podcast Host (Jake)]

To scramble over the fence and get him to dive into an algae covered pool, I thought that was just a great example of how you can train people in. Not the fact, but how you react. And the fact that when Adam had his kit stolen in Rio and he was still able just to adapt and move on from it so quickly, to still go out there and deliver such a phenomenal performance, That's a great example of what a coach can do. Well, listen, if this episode's moved you, please share it with a coach, a parent, a manager, or basically anyone who's responsible for bringing out the best in someone else. That's exactly who Mel made it for. It's been a real treat to listen to this episode with Mel and we'll be back very soon with more high performance.

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