The England Coach Carrying Heartbreak Into World Cup ’26 | Justin Cochrane (E410)

Summary

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The High Performance Podcast

Episode 410: The England Coach Carrying Heartbreak Into World Cup ’26 – Justin Cochrane

Release Date: May 18, 2026
Hosts: Jake Humphrey & Damian Hughes
Guest: Justin Cochrane, England National Team Coach

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Episode Overview

This powerful episode features Justin Cochrane, recent England assistant coach, discussing how immense personal tragedy – the loss of his wife, Leanne – has shaped his life, perspective, and approach to high performance as he heads into the World Cup. Through an open and emotionally raw conversation, Justin addresses grief, resilience, the realities of football culture, family, and leadership in elite sport. This episode is about coping with loss while inspiring others—on and off the pitch.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Justin’s Background & Football Philosophy

• Transition from player to coach: After a playing career in the lower divisions, Justin moved into youth coaching roles at Manchester United, Tottenham, England youth, and Brentford.
• Coaching philosophy:
  • Importance of environment: “Creating the right type of environment for people to be themselves, people to thrive, for there to be enough challenge, that there’s enough support is really important, especially for young people.” (01:39, Justin)
  • Building relationships: Not about friendship, but trust and honest guidance.

2. Personal Story: Love, Loss, and Family

Meeting & Life with Leanne

• A love story filled with admiration, devotion, and partnership.
• Leanne described as “selfless, resilient, always had a smile, brought people together” (06:50, Justin).

The Devastating Diagnosis

• Life was “in the mid-90s” on a happiness scale: successful career, beautiful family, stability.
• Shock came with Leanne’s diagnosis (anaplastic thyroid cancer; survival beyond 12 months “unlikely”).
• Honest family conversations, especially with their three sons.

Quote:

“There was like two existing emotions at the same time—one of hope, okay, we’re going to beat this. And one of reality that the statistics say that it’s unlikely you lived past 12 months. Leanne just come in and said, ‘Mummy might die. The truth is, Mummy might die. But you’ve got each other. You’ve got the best dad that can take care of you.’ And it was the worst day of my life.” (00:09, Justin)

Navigating Grief and Parenting After Loss

• Honesty with children about their mother’s prognosis and loss.
• Creating a support network: family, friends, Brentford club.
• Leanne’s selflessness—encouraging Justin to “get on with your life… go and live your life” (19:26, Justin).
• Notes and messages left by Leanne for Justin and the children after her passing.

3. Coping Tools and Resilience

• Developing coping strategies:
  • Inspired by Mo Gawdat’s “three step process”: "Is it true? Is there anything you can do about it? Can you continue despite its presence?” (29:12, Justin)
  • Daily routines: open the blinds, make the bed, exercise, moments of stillness, breathing techniques.
  • Therapy and support: “Counseling… really helped me and I almost built tools to help me get through the day.” (28:00, Justin)
• Grief and waves of emotion: "Let whatever emotion presented itself, happen. Not fight with anything...” (14:42, Justin)
• Key lesson: “Be kind to yourself…you can only do your best each day.” (59:28, Justin)

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Football: Work as Escape, Community & Culture

Supportive Environments

• Brentford’s family culture enabled vulnerability and support (23:32, Justin).
  • Open communication with staff and players about Leanne’s illness.
  • “The club just come around. How can they support?…So supportive of what I was going through.” (22:36, Justin)
• Football as “medicine”: provided purpose, sense of normality, and a place to channel energy.

Football After Loss

• Quick return to work: “Went back to work probably three weeks [after Leanne passed]…” (21:07, Justin)
• Juggling England assistant role and club jobs at Brentford, then Tottenham, while raising three young boys.
• Professional “highs” continued during personal lows:
  • England role offered by Thomas Tuchel, support and flexibility offered.
  • Development of resilience and emotional regulation—“the gap between disappointment and going again is shorter for me.” (38:07, Justin)
  • Perspective: “Able to cope with huge loss and still operate at a high level… I’ve had the worst thing that could happen.” (38:07, Justin)

Leadership, Vulnerability & Culture in Elite Football

• Advocating vulnerability in a world where “vulnerability is not something that's often at the surface.” (22:20, Jake)
• Thomas Frank and Thomas Tuchel recognized for creating and sustaining “people-first” cultures where well-being is prioritized alongside performance (25:16, 49:39, Justin).
• Lessons for building teams: “The team is what’s going to be successful…You need to make sure that everyone there can be a good teammate…offer something to the squad when called upon.” (56:58, Justin)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On grief and hope:

  “I think I learned to let both exist and just go with the emotion that was present. Not fight with anything… Ultimately it was out of my control. What we wanted to do was not meet trouble halfway.” (14:42, Justin)

• On coaching & environment:

  “You’ve got to make sure it’s not a friendship… making the player understand that you’ve got their progress at the center of what you’re thinking about really helps them and builds that connection.” (02:04, Justin)

• On Leanne’s legacy:

  “She left notes in the phone to me… it was incredible.” (20:28, Justin)

• On everyday resilience:

  “Put my right foot in front of my left foot and find a way to navigate this tragedy.” (26:46, Justin)

• On trauma and strength:

  “There’s a lot of research that trauma leads to triumph. It gives an understanding and empathy that…they perhaps didn’t have before.” (44:55, Jake)

• Advice from Leanne:

  “You need someone to love, something to do and something to look forward to.” (61:32, Justin)

• On team culture:

  “They put people first, and when I went through such a horrible time, the ones that you would admire were the ones that demonstrated, stress tested, that people always come first in their world.” (67:32, Damien)

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Important Timestamps

• Introduction and Justin’s story: 00:03–04:28
• The diagnosis, hope and heartbreak: 09:47–14:42
• Telling the children: 15:58–17:57
• Support from Brentford, football as medicine: 21:17–22:36
• Leadership, vulnerability and team culture: 23:32–25:16
• Tools for coping with grief: 29:12–32:39
• Parenting after loss: 32:44–33:37
• Balancing work and personal tragedy: 34:12–36:33
• Lessons for high performance: 42:24–45:37
• Reflections on Tottenham and England roles: 45:37–53:49
• Squad selection for World Cup: 56:44–57:36
• Advice for the grieving and “Golden Rule” for high performance: 59:28–63:00
• Quick-fire insights and end: 60:57–66:19

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Notable Themes and Takeaways

Grief, Honesty, and Healing

• Grief is not linear—allowing oneself to feel, not forcing positivity, and being honest with family and oneself is essential.
• Kindness to self, openness with others, and asking for help are crucial tools along the journey.

Football As A Support System

• Professional environments built around genuine care and connection can profoundly benefit staff and athletes facing hardship.
• Vulnerability and honesty foster deeper team bonds, sustaining performance under real-life stress.

Leadership, Resilience, & Legacy

• Performance and results matter, but so does the human story behind the coach, the player, and the person.
• The highest form of high performance is performing with integrity, empathy, and consistent effort even in adversity.
• Legacy isn’t just trophies or wins, but modeling strength, vulnerability, and honesty for those who follow.

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Three Non-Negotiable Behaviours (60:57)

1. Keep going: “Whatever you face, you need to find a way.”
2. Respond well: “Be measured, think about it, try your best to respond well.”
3. Help others: “Prioritize helping people; teach my children to do the same.”

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Advice for Others (59:28 & 61:32)

• Be kind to yourself, accept support, and talk about your feelings.
• "You need someone to love, something to do and something to look forward to." – Leanne’s mantra.
• “Do what needs to be done, when it needs to be done, with effort, discipline, and consistency.” (Golden rule for a high performance life, 63:00, Justin)

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Closing Reflection

Justin’s story is one of courage, vulnerability, and deep humanity. As he heads to the World Cup, he carries not just tactical acumen, but lived experience and empathy—reminding us all that behind every professional is a person, and behind every high performer is a story. This episode is a testament to resilience in the most authentic sense.

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Transcript

[Jake]

This week on high performance, the England coach carrying personal heartbreak all the way to the World Cup.

[Justin]

If there was a life going well, scale from 0 to 100. I was in the mid-90s. Everything was going well. I signed a new contract at Brentford, My three sons, it was just beautiful. I got a phone call to say it's come back as cancerous. There was like two existing emotions at the same time. One of hope, okay, we're going to beat this. And one of reality that the statistics say that it's unlikely you lived past 12 months. And Leanne just come in and said, mummy might die. The truth is, mummy might die. But you've got each other. You've got the best dad that can take care of you. And it was the worst day of my life.

[Jake]

Justin, welcome to the show.

[Justin]

Thank you for having me.

[Jake]

So, look, you're part of Thomas Uhoh's backroom team as we gear up for a World Cup. How are you feeling?

[Justin]

Yeah, just extremely excited. Looking forward to the 1st of June when we fly out, and looking forward to going with the team on this World cup journey where, fingers crossed, things go our way. Maybe we have an opportunity to win some silverware. It'll be very, very tricky, very tough, but ultimately just looking forward to it.

[Jake]

And you're a guy who built your career working in youth football. After your playing career finished, you were involved at Manchester United, at Tottenham, at England, at youth level. When it comes to creating environments where people can be honest, can open up, can give their best, what is the secret to an environment of success like that, a true high performing environment, do you think?

[Justin]

Yeah, I'm not sure there's a particular secret, but I do think that creating the right type of environment for people to be themselves, people to thrive, for there to be enough challenge, that there's enough support is really important, especially for young people, young players, predominantly in the youth setups, they've. You need to help direct them, you need to help guide them. And the environment is what, what creates that? Yeah, I'd say.

[Damien]

So when you do that, like, what are the. What are the essential elements of that environment?

[Justin]

I think if I think about myself and the. And the clubs I worked at, I think personally it's been able to build a connection with the players and build rapport and a relationship. Not a friendship, a relationship where they trust you, whether you can guide them, where they believe you, but in. Also in that relationship and that connection, you can start saying, okay, well, maybe you need to do this or you need to work a bit harder. You can kind of guide their steps. I think you got to make sure it's not a friendship where you're just trying to be nice by building a relationship, making it, making the player understand that you've got their, their, their progress at the center of what you're thinking about really helps them and it builds that. That connection needed to help players develop.

[Damien]

So there's a psychologist called Arthur Ahrens who specializes in sort of looking at how you build connections and he talks about mutual, mutual self disclosure, where you reveal a bit about yourself and then when people feel safe enough, they'll reveal about themselves. And gradually people move closer to each other. How much of yourself do you reveal? Because I'm conscious that idea of not trying to be friends. But do you still want to be, to have that connection?

[Justin]

Yeah, I think as a coach, I've always shown vulnerability. I think, I think that I always spoke about my journey. I played not a lot, didn't play many games, but I played in the lower divisions. I made a lot of mistakes. I probably didn't connect enough with some coaches, probably thought I knew best, and my career was quite short. So I share these stories with the players. I speak to them about my experiences and about how also football, when you work in academy football, it's not just about producing plans for the first team. Likelihood is that they're not going to make it likely they're not going to be a professional at the highest level. So what skills can you help teach them that are going to help them navigate through life and through sport and football in particular? There's lots of things you can help young people with, lots of topics, subjects you can help young people with that actually help them if they don't have a life within football.

[Jake]

One of the things that football often does, right, is it loses sense of perspective. Fans, footballers, coaches, the media, you know, they obsess about things that maybe in reality we shouldn't obsess about. And you have had something happen in your personal life that I think probably puts the game into perspective. Are you. You happy to talk about that?

[Justin]

Yeah, Jake, for sure, I'm happy to speak about it. And hopefully something I say may help some people that may have suffered or suffering at the moment.

[Jake]

Well, let's talk then about Leanne. Was it love at first sight?

[Justin]

Oh, good question. Was it love at first sight? She actually turned me down the first, first time we met, we'd known each other, we grew up in the same area and I was 17 or 18 when I first met Leanne and We were friends for a little while, but then I went and played football. I moved up north. I didn't see her for probably 10 years. And then I happened to be at Notting Hill Carnival and I saw Leanne as I was walking through the crowd of people, managed to stop to her, speak to her, and then from there we went on a few dates and, yeah, they're fond memories. And we got together after that.

[Damien]

How early in the relationship did you know that she was the one?

[Justin]

Yeah, I think I did. I think I did. I think I was at the right age to be ready to commit and to be. Yeah, to be settled. I was back in London. I'd played football all over England for a bit and I was probably back in London. Settled, settled playing, settled coaching as well. Just started coaching at Tottenham. And then when I met her, I knew after the first few dates that, yeah, she was the one. She was very, very, very special woman.

[Jake]

Hold on a minute, you're saying you were ready to commit? I think we've got to be clear here. Liane is the one that had to commit. Because if you're going to go out with someone or marry someone that's in football, you move in house, you move in clubs. Constant sackings, constant uncertainty. And in that world of uncertainty, I'm so interested in what she did for you.

[Justin]

Do we have two hours? We don't have two hours, no. So at the early stage, of course, it was just getting to know each other. It was towards the back end of my playing career. I was transitioning into non league and back, more coaching, so. So I was settled in London and yeah, from that time and up until she left, she was just an incredible, incredible woman. Incredible support for me. She was my number one supporter, of course, she was my wife. She took care of the home, she looked after the boys, she allowed me to progress and chase my dreams, which was in football. And of course, a wonderful mother to my three sons. She was just, she was tough, she was resilient, but she was okay and she was kind and, yeah, selfless in, in, in, in everything she did. Yeah.

[Damien]

So when you, like you've described a lot there of what she did, I'm interested in. For those that haven't met, Leon, tell us something about what made her so special and unique? What were her characteristics?

[Justin]

I think, especially when she had our first son, she made mothering look easy and she took it in her stride and I felt that she was able to handle everything that was going on in, in terms of becoming a mother, raising a home. So raising my sons, creating a home, creating the right environment for me to thrive and also letting me focus on my journey in becoming becoming a better coach. So yeah, I'll just describe her as selfless but also always had a smile on her face. Brought people together. There's so many, so many descriptive words I could use. But yeah, just she just changed my life in terms of being a single man to then being with Leanne and being a married man. My life just changed totally and she made me get to where I am now. Without doubt.

[Jake]

We'll be right back after a quick

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[Jake]

and so your career was going great. You're making inroads in the world of coaching. You had kids, you were happily married. And then Leanne.

[Justin]

Leanne got ill. Yeah, I have lots of different thoughts at times. And if there was a life going well, scale from 0 to 100. Mine was in the mid-90s. Everything was going well. I signed a new contract at Brentford. We just had. Was given nine days off during the season, during January because the schedule allowed it. We had a family holiday to Antigua. Everything was fantastic. You know, my three sons, it was just beautiful. We came back and then probably within a month, Lian had a growth on her neck that she was aware of, but the doctor had thought it was just a goiter. By the time we had the. The assessments and the. The biopsy, they realized it was cancerous. And then in, I think it was mid February. That's just when it just shocked my whole world. Just shocked my whole world when I got a phone call to say from the end, saying, it's come back as cancerous,

[Jake]

man. And all those years of being taught how to coach people and look after people and nurture people, suddenly you had a very real world lesson here in you and Leanne being a team.

[Justin]

Yeah, it just hit, of course, and your first thinking, your first thoughts, okay, like in football and life in general, okay, we're going to beat this. This is it. Another challenge. We've done well so far. We've been together 12, 13 years. We're going to overcome this. There's going to be further scans, further tests, but it just shocks you. It just hits your system, your nervous system right in the center. And it did us. But Leanne was so brave, so consistent, so. So able to deal with the uncertainty, the distress without it affecting the whole family. She. She handled it in her stride. And then, of course, there's further tests. And then when you hear the news that we heard in terms of the diagnosis of it being anaplastic thyroid cancer, which is a very, very aggressive cancer, which is the survival is rate is very low over two years or over 12 months even. It was just like, I was just in it. It was just a bit of a blur, a bit of a daze. The diagnosis times, that would have been April time after she had an operation to remove it. So, yeah, just cancer is. Is a. It affects so many. And there's other people that will listen to this who are going, going through the journey or have been through the journey. So, no, when you get their news, of course there's further tests and you hear more devastating news. It actually rocks you and you can get into a bit of a blur or a daze.

[Damien]

And you've described Leon as being selfless. How did she deal with this horrendous news?

[Justin]

She, of course, she's upset and she's. She's low and a bit of disbelief. But I think there are lots of people living with cancer. So we thought, okay, this might be something we live with. This might be something that we. That after a year or two we can overcome. So at the beginning stages, we. No, in fact, there's positive activity throughout. Who's going to beat this? But when you hear this, the sad news I mentioned previously, that just put just before we came on, that at that time for both of us, there was like two existing emotions at the same time. One of hope. Okay, we're going to beat this. And one of reality that. The statistics say that it's unlikely you live past 12 months. And the doctor at the Royal Marsden said that, said that to us. So that when you get that, when that hits you, you're thinking, this can't be true. Especially where Leanne's symptoms, although she had the lump on her neck, by this time it had been removed. She was fine. She wasn't ill, she wasn't any medication at the time. It was just. You would never have known. And for maybe four to five, so from March till probably August, you'd never have known because she lost a bit of weight, but that was it. But it's just dealing with it. The two, the two things coexist at the same time. The hope and the reality breeds a cocktail of emotions in your body that you find it hard to navigate. Sleep was tricky. Of course, I had to work. At the same time, sleep was tricky. We both wake up at night and be like, you awake. Yeah, you wake. Yeah. We're both ways speaking to each other. So, you know, it was this really tough time for the family. Really, really tough time.

[Damien]

And that push and pull of those emotions of hope and then sometimes having to face the stark reality. When did you, like, when did you know to let go of hope and face reality at times? And when did you decide to just cling onto hope regardless of what was happening?

[Justin]

I think, Damon, I think I learned to let both exist and just go with the emotion that was present. Not fight with anything, not fight with, right, it's going to be this or it's going to be that. I had to just. Just let whatever emotion presented itself. A lot of time it happens in the subconscious, when you're half asleep or you just wake up in the morning, you're a little bit dazed, oh, this is gonna happen. I had to just let it play out because you fight against it. I found you just, what, work yourself into. Into a feeling that you can't really. That you can't really digest, almost. So I just. Okay, whatever comes in mind, I'll let it come. It'll. It will show its face and I'll let it go and I'll get on with the day because ultimately it was out of my control. And what we wanted to do was not meet. Not meet trouble halfway. So not meet. Not just bring. Bring the trouble forward. So she passed in November 2024, but in May. I didn't want to be thinking about November 2024 or whether that would be December 24th or January 25th. I just thought we just deal with the present and control what we can control.

[Jake]

And all three of us here have got children. I mean, I don't even know how you begin to navigate this for your children, who, you know, the youngest back then would have been, what, five?

[Justin]

Five, yeah, five years.

[Jake]

Jude, how did the two of you work out how to present this to your. To your kids?

[Justin]

Yeah, this was a challenge. We read some stuff about, obviously, in the hospice and the place they give you handouts and things to suggest things, but when it got really serious, the whole thing is serious. But when Leanne was really ill, towards the end, maybe a couple of weeks before she passed, when they said there's nothing more they could do, we told the children the full extent. So the children knew Mummy was ill, they knew she had cancer, but they didn't know the full extent. So probably 10 days before she passed away, Leanne. We had probably an hour speaking about how we're going to tell the children, and some family members just said, maybe say, you know, Mummy's a bit ill, or this, but we just decided to be really just honest. And I started. My words were trembling, and the angels come in and said, mummy might die. The truth is, Mummy might die, but you've got each other. You've got the best dad that can take care of you. And explained there's more to it. But I just switched by then and the kids just. It was just the most. It was the worst day of my life. Just all my kids burst into tears. It was just. Just incredibly, incredibly tough. Incredibly tough to tell the children. But what actually happened was after that, when they saw their mum, that it was likely their mum was going to pass Away, they could tell, especially my oldest, because we had almost prepared him with the, with the. With the news. It was more accept. I think it was better doing it that way rather than maybe lying. And then Leon was no longer here and there. What's happened, dad, you know, so I think that was the best way. And even my son, Sister, I said, I'm always going to tell you the truth, remember, was said from this day to the truth. So he. I think that the advice was given from the hospice was, Was the right advice.

[Jake]

It's a real challenge, isn't it, with the oldest, because you feel like you can give them more information but you don't want them to have to carry stuff that their age you shouldn't. They shouldn't be carrying.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Jake]

Such a hard balance it is, but

[Justin]

it was reality we were faced with. Yeah. And we have to make decisions in the moment. And like I said to my son at the time, I said, you know, this is something we have to face. This is something that will, that will live with us, but it's something that we have a lot of support with and as long as we keep communicating, we speak as a family. As your mum always said to you, there's three of you, you've all got your brothers, you stick together. And of course, I had a lot of support from family, a lot of support from friends, a lot of support from the organisations that I worked for at Brentford Football Club at the time. But lots of people reached out. So that support, it doesn't soften anything, but it knows that you've got people around you that care about you and there's people that. So many people that helped me and also my children, including the school, including parents of my son's friends. So it's just, yeah, I was able to navigate a little bit better with that support.

[Damien]

And what did Leanne say to you about your relationship and the life that you had to continue to live? Did you. Did you have conversations about that?

[Justin]

Yeah, she did. She just. She. Yeah, she. I spoke with Rio a couple of times over text and because he had been through what I'd been through and I think Leanne and maybe I think together we'd watched his documentary years before and she always said that you have to get on with your life, you have to go back to work, you have to chase your dreams and if the opportunity came to, to meet someone, you should go and live your life. And she was just selfless in that. She was just thinking what would. What would be best for you and what would be best for her boys. So she was just really adamant that I'd continue and live my life. And, yeah, we had so many conversations that about, you know, how to look after the boys, what she would want, the support she needed from the other family members. So she was very open. I think, that Leanne accepted, towards the end, she accepted what was coming to her and thought, okay, this is coming my way. I'm going to try and put this, this, this and that in place to maybe help.

[Jake]

She sounds incredibly brave.

[Justin]

She was without doubt, Jake. Honestly, like, just incredible when I think about it. Now. Left notes in the phone to me, you need to do this, you need to do that. This is for this son. This is this. Give that to my. Give this to my mum. You know, just. It was. It was incredible.

[Damien]

Is there any note that you still go back to?

[Justin]

I've got the Maud. I've got the Maud, Amy. And notes for the boys when they're older. Stuff. It's a message or long message to me. Yeah, just lots of stuff. Every now and again you look for it, but it's heavy. This stuff is heavy to even discuss and to feel, but it's important that we unpack it.

[Jake]

And throughout this time, did you continue to work?

[Justin]

Yeah, I went back to. After Leanne passed. Went back to work probably three weeks.

[Jake]

So before, like, while Lian was ill, you continued?

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Jake]

Did you tell them what was going on at Brentford?

[Justin]

Yeah, I spoke to him. So, yeah. So when the. Anne was ill, she wasn't. It was for large part of the nine months she survived. After diagnosis, there was no symptoms, so she continued to operate as normal. She. She was fine. So I told the staff at Brentford, I spoke to players at one stage because I was missing days to go to hospital appointments and the players. I remember standing at the front of the players at Brentford at training ground and just seeing their faces, just in total shock because it's a family, family, club, family, people, top players, top environment, top culture. And they were just with me. They were just supporting me with me. They were just with me all the time. So I felt that support that helped. But also football helped me escape what I was going through. I get a passion and fulfillment from being on the football pitch. So going out every day, putting the mannequins in the grass, setting the pitch up, designing the training sessions, executing the training sessions, that gave me my fix, my high. It enabled me to escape a bit from what was going on in my life.

[Jake]

Football, though, can also be a world where vulnerability is not something that's Often at the surface.

[Justin]

How.

[Jake]

How did you make the decision that you were gonna speak to the players as a whole, as a collective, did that come from Thomas Frank, or was that your decision?

[Justin]

Yeah, it was a bit of both. Thomas left it up to me. We had numerous conversations and yeah, I can't remember exactly how it would. How we decided, but we said, we'll speak to the players. And I went up, up on to the. In the meeting room and just explained the situation. I might be missing some days. I've got to go to the appointments, My wife's got cancer. And yeah, the players, like I said, they were fantastic. But yeah, the type of club Brentford are the people, families always first. Thomas has always said that. But the whole club just come around. How can they support. Whether it's Phil Giles, whether it was the owner who messaged me like everyone was just so. So supporting and understanding. So if I needed to leave early, it was no problem. If we travel to an away game the night before, I could go in the morning and meet the team at the hotel or at the stadium. If I needed extra time, I could take extra time. So they were so supportive of what I was going through.

[Damien]

It reminds me a little bit of when we interviewed Siya Khaleesi, the South African captain of the rugby union team. And he spoke about this. He wanted to preside over a culture that in Zulu phrases ubuntu, which is I am because you are. And he spoke about that vulnerability of people talking about loss or bereavement in their world actually brought people closer together. I don't know if you would be able to judge that when you shared the information about what you were going through, do you think it made a tangible difference in that dressing room?

[Justin]

I think that when the Christian or God spoke at the end of the season in front of the. The players, and he really, he spoke really highly of me, said for Justin to go through what he's been through and still being able to perform, still being able to support us, still being able to coach us, to be able to lead his journey, that is something that brings us all closer. I felt like maybe that, that may answer your question, but I do. I'm not so brought anyone close or anything, but I just felt like caring about each other is at the center of what Brentford Football Club's about. And I think the captain represented that at that moment of time. And I felt supported. I felt like, okay, these guys, I can be myself. If I need to burst into tears in the corner, I can. And I was Happy to speak about it as well. I felt like I didn't want it to be a subject that we couldn't speak about. So people say, how's your wife? And I say, okay, she's this. We're doing that. And so I felt like that, that club, the environment, that club is open and people I felt comfortable speaking due to the. Basically due to the people that work for the club.

[Jake]

And how much of that environment is down to what Thomas Frank created.

[Justin]

I think you'd have to say Thomas, Phil, Matthew Benham, I think they've created that type of culture where they were together a while before Thomas left for Tottenham. Thomas, I think, had nine years or nine years at Brentford, so he had an opportunity to build something there. And he built a culture that people wanted to come to work, people felt together. Phil Giles wanted the club to feel like one. There's not much separation between Academy and the first team. It was like everyone's together, everyone's in the same building, everyone eats together. There's no. You can't walk over this part of the building. It was just like that open type of environment where everyone could be themselves, celebrate different. Celebrate a diverse working group. It was just a real. A real pleasure to work and to go to.

[Jake]

I think sometimes we look at environments like that and we do question like, is there a value in this? Does it. Does it really matter? And then when someone's going through what you are in your personal life, you then realize actually why an environment like that is so incredibly important. And as you've mentioned, this isn't something that Leanne was able to survive.

[Justin]

No.

[Jake]

And eventually cancer did take her life. It sounds like at the very end, though, she was still reminding you what a great guy you were and that you were. You were well equipped to look after those children.

[Justin]

Yeah. So she. She. She made that clear in the video. She said, you're. You're the best person to make decisions for the boys. You're the best father for these boys. You're the best husband I could have wished for. So just keep going. And one of the messages was she said, in true Leanne and Justin fashion, we get on with stuff. I know that sounds a little bit. I don't know, a bit direct. We just can't just get on with it. But I had to keep going. I had to keep going. I put my right foot in front of my left foot and find a way to navigate this. This tragedy for myself and for my sons. Like I said, I had all the support, but I wanted to just to keep going. And of course I've been resilient all my life, but I feel like this builds a new level of resilience. Yeah. And I just, I just found a way. I found, found a way in them early months to just a bit of a daze, bit of a blur. Sadness was present everywhere. Look, it's almost like, Leon, you can't see this in the podcast, but like, it's like wherever you tried to look and turn, the sadness was right there in front of you. So. But I had to find a way. I got counseling, I got therapy, which was amazing, really helped me and I almost like built tools to try and help me get through the day. But initially, as you can imagine, I took on the role that Leanne played. So I went from Liam, maybe taking, doing 80% of the boys and the home and the school. So now I have to take on this role. So it's almost becoming mother and father in one. But I was fortunate enough to have my parents both retired who live a mile away. They're separated, but they live close to each other and close to me, who come and supported Lian's mum, who only works three days a week, she was able to come and support. So I had the support from the family immediately. And then being in the position I was, I was able to afford to pay for a nanny who committed a certain number of hours a week to help with the school run, help with the kids, help with this and help with that. So we've got like a. And she's close family member. So I had these, these four main people who came almost to the rescue and just helped Lyft keep me on my feet and help the boys routines be maintained.

[Damien]

And when you catch your mind back to those dark days immediately following Leon's passing, is there any tips or techniques you can think about that did help you to be able to keep putting one foot in front of another?

[Justin]

It's actually one of the episodes I listened to with Mo Gao Dat. I remember you listening to it years ago whenever you guys first released it. And he said that he had like almost like a three step process and I hope I get it right. It was like, is it true? Is there anything you can do about it? Can you continue despite his presence? So I just used that whole the three step process, let's call it. Is it true? Yes, it's true. She's no longer with us. Anything I can do about it? Absolutely nothing you can do. She's not coming back, unfortunately. And then I have to continue despite it Being there. So I remember using that early on. And then I got up every morning, opened the blinds, I made my bed. I thought that's one thing done or two things done. And I tried to exercise. I tried to go outside and do something even. It was just light stretching and some body weight exercises. I had a walk bike at home, so tried to get outside, get some fresh air, get the body moving. That helped me get through the days in terms of routine. Since then, I've built on that and do more deliberate stuff to help me. Help me be able to perform and do my best throughout the day. Whether it's work or personal, though.

[Damien]

Like what?

[Justin]

Or just. Just moments of being still. Just some breathing stuff, some breathing techniques, all this stuff. I feel I've learned this with, with counseling. So I think I've always been someone who's a doer. Gotta get that done, get this done, get through that. Busy days, schedules, so it's agendas to do, lists. Got to get this, do that, gotta make this good, you know, that type of person. I just realized that sometimes you can't keep doing it. You've just got a. You've got to be. Sometimes you just gotta be still. You gotta just. This is all stuff I've learned, especially with the trauma and the grief. Sometimes you've gotta just. Just take some time out just to be still. Let the subconscious do whatever it wants to do. Let it bring all the crazy thoughts forward and then let them pass through and then you carry on with the day. So try to have a bit of a morning routine that gets me prepared to go to work at the time when I was at Tottenham Hotspur, but also just to navigate the full day when I was working and with my boys.

[Jake]

It sounds like the advice from the therapist that you worked with after Leanne passed away was almost giving you freedom to feel everything that you needed to feel. Not trying to control stuff. For someone whose life is about control, control the results, control the performance, control the training. It was about letting go. Was it?

[Justin]

When you lose someone, the initial grief is. Grief can come in waves, but it hits you if you try to fight against it or even tense up, it just. You're not going to win. So I almost, in them dark moments when Leanne was still here and when she passed up, when the mind was. The subconscious was going, and okay, you're going to struggle with your kids and how are you going to do that? And I just let everything play out in front of me and just accepted that this was thoughts flying around in my head and Everyone goes through stuff. Everyone got their own problems and issues. Everyone has maybe sleepless nights or waking up and the mind is playing tricks on them or the mind is telling them stuff. I just learned to just live with what it was telling me, not believe it all and get on with the day. But I think that process of letting what was in the subconscious come out really helped me in terms of the grief, the trauma, and then able to process what I needed to do that day.

[Jake]

What was the right way, do you think, to parent your boys at this point?

[Justin]

It's a very good question. I hope it is the right way, but my job, I said this at the funeral, is to try and give them the best childhood possible so that when they're older, they just say, yeah, dad, you done well. Thank you. So that's it. So the right way is them being at the center of all my decisions. So all my decisions based around is. Is that good for my boy? So me trying to become the best coach, trying to become really successful, trying to set an example to them, modeling the right behavior, being vulnerable, speaking a lot. I think I want to. I want them to see how I am and think, okay, my dad's. My dad's trying hard. My dad's trying to do his best for us.

[Jake]

I love you.

[Damien]

Checked in with them and asked them,

[Justin]

No, I haven't checked. I've asked them how I'm doing, but we speak a lot. And I know my sons are proud of me, and I'm proud. I'm proud of them.

[Jake]

I think you're absolutely right in that. One of the big challenges, though, is you're trying to do the right thing by your boys. You're trying to process your own grief, knowing the kind of person you are. In the short time that I've known you, you would have also been thinking about Leanne's family and her parents and your parents and brothers and sisters and everybody else, you know, trying to take care of everyone, yet at the same time, the sport which has been your life, which is football, doesn't stop. Yeah. Did you feel this sense of pressure that actually, like, there was also this other world which is moving forwards without you, that you have to go back to at some point.

[Justin]

I didn't. I needed that. I needed that. I needed that. And during this sad time, there's a lot of highs. So once Leon passed away, of course, it was extreme low, extreme sadness present every day. But Brentford had a brilliant season. The front players were doing fantastically well. They scored 50 Premier League goals between them. Things Were going really well at Brentford. Top 10 finish was on at the time, so we were going for it. Got offered the England assistant coaches role. I played with Anthony Barry. I knew Anti Barry for a while and when him and Thomas Tuchel were appointed, that opportunity arose. That was probably late December, early January. So despite the sadness of some professional highs and then in the end of the season, I get the opportunity to move to Tottenham with Thomas Frank. So though you may think it was going on without me, I was still at the pace that it was moving. I still managed to do both. The resilience I built, the tools I had, the support and that allowed me still to operate and still coach well, still be there, still be present, be at every game, be with the national team. So in national breaks, the type of people I had time off, I was with the squad. So I just enjoyed football. Football was my.

[Jake]

So you, you went to England and Spurs?

[Justin]

England and Brentford first, yeah, and then England and Spurs.

[Jake]

And so Leanne passed away at the end of 2024.

[Justin]

November.

[Jake]

November.

[Justin]

And you took the England job in February 2025.

[Jake]

So only three months later, you're suddenly juggling two jobs, looking after the boys, processing your own grief as well.

[Justin]

Yeah, with the support of all my family. But football is. Football is medicine. Football is what I love. Football is my passion. Football is what gives me that, that buzz. So when I'm on that pitch for an hour, an hour and a half, two hours, whatever it is, I'm totally zoned in on that. When grief hits you, it's not always. You're not. It's not sadness every single day, it's not tears every single day. You may have a good week. So I was fortunate enough to work at this level, fortunate enough to work for great people who helped me, fortunate enough to work for great football clubs and be. It's an honour to work for the national team. So I feel like during this sad time, I've actually, actually developed, I've actually got better and built skills, tools to help me perform and skills that will be with me for the rest of my career.

[Jake]

Would you share with us what they are?

[Justin]

Well, firstly, personally, it's just how my morning routine sets me up for the day. I think I'll try to be consistent with that for the rest of my life. Just by having that, having some still time, being active in the mornings and just making sure I look after myself, I think that's important. Looking after yourself. I think the other, the other stuff that I've built is a new level of resilience. Without a new level of managing my emotions.

[Jake]

And what does that feel like?

[Justin]

It feels like person I'm able to separate almost what's happening or what's happened, process it, but then move quickly on in like a short space of time. And in the football example, it might be, you lose the game, you're down in the doldrums. How long are you down for? Are you up quickly? Think, okay, that's happened. Now how do we prepare for the next game? And that happened at Tottenham where some results wasn't good. We had a very, very, very good start, but when things, when maybe the result didn't go away, I was quickly thinking, okay, onto the next one. I had to filter out the noise. How do we try and perform better next game? How do we prepare the team for the next match? So I feel like them skills always had them, but they reached new level and I mean, I have to manage the emotions, manage what you're going through and make sure you don't get caught up in the noise. And is that.

[Jake]

Sorry, Damien, is that because you've been given the perspective that it's. It's just a football result in the grand scheme of things, in the grand story of life, it really is not that important.

[Justin]

I understand, of course you get that. But I think it's more. I'm able to. It's more coping skills. I'm able to cope with being able to cope with huge loss and still operate at a high level. So I'm able to deal with maybe a defeat and then maybe, okay, now we gotta go again. So it's that bit between disappointment and going again is probably shorter for me. I was, okay, that's happened because I've had the worst thing that could happen to you happen.

[Jake]

And was there not a period where you literally just didn't care? Because I kind of feel that if I lost my wife, I'm not sure I'd care about hosting this show or how many people were watching it or if I was a football coach, whether we won or lost a game, I just don't think I would give a shit. Like, do you know what I mean? Yeah.

[Justin]

I think the first game back after Leanne passed with a tough game, I felt I went up to Everton with Brentford and I sat on the. I was able to go on the day it was Everton away and I went on the train to Liverpool and I remember just thinking, I've got nothing in me today to give to the team. I didn't have the energy in me. Thomas was aware of that. But me just being there was, was, was positive for the team and the players and myself after that. I think as soon as I got to the game, you're fully tuned into the game. You're fully tuned into the, to being. Your professional pride now comes in. We want to win. You know, I'm fiercely competitive. I wanted to win. I wanted to make sure that I supported the staff, supported the players, supported the manager, do whatever it takes to help the team get three points. So I think that comes into it. However, at the end of the game, whether we won, there wasn't like a massive high. I might not have reached the same high as others. Yeah. And if we lost, I definitely didn't reach the same low as others. So I was able to. Due to what I'd been through, I was able to stay in between that and probably the biggest. Where I felt it returned a bit slightly was when we qualified for the World Cup. That was the first time when I was like, yes, I felt that real joy, a real joy when I was with it.

[Jake]

Did you allow yourself to feel it? Because a lot of people who've had a trauma or have suffered with grief, they almost don't. They don't feel they're allowed to be happy.

[Justin]

Yeah, I just felt like that, that moment because I was. It was just like such an amazing achievement to do what we did in the qualifier, to do what the team did in the qualification stage. And I just felt that. I felt that joy at that moment. Time. But the previous, previous stuff, it was, I think maybe also because when you're in the rhythm of the Premier League, it's always, okay, well done, you've got a result. Now we've got. Now we've got an away game in two days later. Now we've got a tough European tie. So maybe it was a bit of a hamster wheel effect. But back to the first point, I would say that I always care and I always will care for sure. But I feel like he didn't enjoy the highs as much and you didn't go as low as much. That would be that perspective. But that change is now at Tottenham. Now, when it, it was a bit further down the line, you start feeling it more and it gets you, you know, so that. Yeah.

[Jake]

We'll be right back after a quick

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[Jake]

But for those

[Damien]

that are not aware of your story and that you have A stellar reputation within football for what you do on the field, for making people better.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Damien]

We first met when you were at Manchester United and I knew your reputation from people there. And Phil Giles spoke about it when

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[Damien]

He was excited that you joined the staff. And Anthony Barry's spoken to me about how. How good you are on the field. So your reputation within your world is for what you can do and how you can make people better. And I'm interested in what has this whole experience done for you in your bread and butter out there on the field and how has it enhanced you?

[Justin]

I just think it's made me more driven, if I'm honest. I don't think it's my coaching that's changed. Just think it's made me more driven. It's made me want to enjoy all the moments that football brings more because I realized that it was a medicine for me. But it's not changed me in such. Maybe just the managing the emotions bit. In terms of, okay, I feel like I'm able to cope with a lot of load. I can manage load, I can organize, I can prioritize. And for sure, that's made me more resilient. For sure, it's made me more resilient, but I would like to think I was pretty resilient before.

[Jake]

There's a lot of research that trauma leads to triumph. So many of the people that we've sat and had a conversation with on high performance at some point in their life have been through an almost unbearable trauma. And a lot of the research points to the fact that it gives them an understanding and empathy of other people that they perhaps didn't have before. So it was after this that you ended up at Tottenham, and I think that you would have been so much more attuned to what a great environment looks like. So what was going on at Tottenham that was difficult for Thomas or that you as a collective were unable to turn around?

[Justin]

That is the question. It started very well at Thomas. It started very well. And I think firstly, it's a totally different cup to Brentford, but at Tottenham it started very well. And I think the schedule of playing every three days in Europe and in the Premier League, of a squad that probably wasn't as robust as potentially it

[Jake]

could be, mentally or physically?

[Justin]

I think maybe physically. Physically made it tricky. Plus also the previous year, the previous year they had four probably outstanding front players who were very dangerous in Dominic Solanke, Madison Kulasevski and Son, who produced a large number of assists and goals. We didn't have them at the start of the year through injury. Yes, they had players that replaced him that were brought in. Xavi Simmons, Karlo Moane Kudis and some young players in, older Bert and Toll. But there was no real. There's no real evidence that they would be as prolific as the other guys. And we, that that was probably the biggest challenge we found, like putting that. Getting that offensive threat out after the first probably seven, eight games, getting the best and then dealing with it with the schedule. Of course, we didn't get everything right. You know, we do. We was looking, trying to find the right lineup, but everyone does it in the, at the beginning stages. But as much as it didn't work out, there's also the bit that was filtering the noise. The noise was. That's the bit that was the major challenge. A lot of noise from the outside, a lot of noise from, from the supporters. And that was a big challenge to navigate as well.

[Jake]

Can you talk about that challenge and how you, how you navigate it?

[Justin]

Well, I just think we had to concentrate on what we could control and that was trying to get the training right. I was trying to get the game plan right. I was trying to put a team out that could win. But it was a new challenge for us playing every three days, of course, because that wasn't the case at Brentford and that is how he just focused in. Thomas was extremely hard working, the hardest working person I've probably met in my football career. And yeah, that was what we did every day. Just tried to navigate that the best we could.

[Jake]

When you went into Tottenham, did you tell people about your personal story or at this point had you decided that that wasn't something that you wanted to do or needed to do?

[Justin]

Yeah, no, I didn't, I didn't tell everyone the personal story. When the year anniversary came around on November 8, 2025, Thomas just mentioned it in the team meeting because I was. I wasn't traveling with the team that day. I was going to spend some time and then come a little bit later. So Thomas mentioned that, that to the players and of course some of the players spoke to me and supported me and yeah, once again they were very understanding.

[Jake]

I'm also intrigued by the offer of you joining England as one of their coaches. This was Thomas Tuchel, right, coming to you to offer you this job. Was he aware at the time that you were grieving the loss of your wife only a couple of months before?

[Justin]

Yeah. Thomas woods and John McDermott, Anthony Barry, they all were aware and gave me lots of time to think. They wanted me to really think it through. Sought after advice from different people. But when it's your national team, when it's an opportunity to represent your country, represent. Have the opportunity to go to a World cup potentially. At the time, it was. Wasn't something I could turn down. And of course, my boys were at the center of my decision. If they could say their father's been to a World cup and supported England during. During the World cup and work that I thought that they would. They'd be proud of that as well, so.

[Jake]

And what did they say to convince you to do this? Because I'm. I can only imagine that there would have been so many conflicting thoughts in your head. I need to be here for my boys. They're still grieving. I don't know what the right decision is to make at the moment. I'm still processing what's happened. It's England, but I've got to commit to Brentford. That is a tricky, tricky period for you from a psychological perspective.

[Justin]

Yeah, they. They said if any time I needed a day off, I had to go home from St. George's park if I really want struggling and they would understand that. They're just good people. I think I've been very fortunate enough to, in the jobs I work for, to work for very, very good people with human skills. People that are not just fully only focused on the result, the outcome, the tactics they're interested in, the people that work for them or work with them. I think that both. Thomas, Tuchel, Auntie Barry, they're warm people in general and they said, whatever you need, how we can support you, we'll be prepared. We would like you to be part of the staff. And he knew of me because we played together. We had similar coaching journeys in terms of our qualifications and working in first team environments. He thought it'd be a good me being part time joining up with a camp as well as working full time at Brentford at the time, he said that would be a good fit for both me and for the national team.

[Damien]

What did you feel that you could bring to that coaching setup that was different or unique?

[Justin]

I feel like I could bring something a bit different. I feel like I was currently working in the Premier League. They'd come from Germany, both working out at Bayern. I felt like I've got insights into a lot of the players. I worked with a lot of the youth players as well. That was one of the things that was important for Anthony. He said I'd worked in the England youth setups for Three years. So I knew quite a lot of the players, had relationships with some of the players in the national team. They felt like I've got. I have a good understanding of the dynamics, so I could work with Anthony. Anthony would be comfortable working with me and me and him working together, working with Thomas. I knew John McDermott from previous being at Tottenham. I understood the way the FA works. It was almost like a good blend of characters, personalities and the experiences that I've had.

[Damien]

So would you describe the process, then, of how, when it comes to the England team, maybe Thomas sets an intention of this is how I want to play. How does that process work, then, from Thomas declaring it to you and Anthony and John and the other coaches translating it into action?

[Justin]

Yeah, I think it's more. He translates it to the coaches and translates it to the players so the players are clear of what an England performance looks like, what identity wants to be like, how we want to be, how we want to play, how we want to attack, how we want to defend. We've got, like, some clear principles, clear ideas. We've tried to build throughout the camps and the qualification phase, hopefully we can take into the World Cup. And that's been fascinating for me because tactically, tactical brain, unbelievable. The manager, his level of detail in all the phases of the game is incredible. But also, would you just pause then

[Damien]

and sort of explain to those of us that. And not in that dressing room, what do you mean by that?

[Justin]

Well, in every phase of the game, whether it be building up, maybe attacking, defending high, defending the middle of the pitch, defending low, the level of detail for the players, what's expected is very high, a very high level of detail, but delivered in such a personable manner that's easy to digest for the players. So he has the high level of football understanding and football knowledge, of course, he's won so many trophies. But also that personable nature, very warm, very open, outstanding communicator, outstanding person. Being able to. That mixture of both what they know and then how to deliver what they know, I just think makes him one of the best.

[Jake]

What moment have you seen from Thomas Tuka, where you thought, that is a very cool bit of football management, which I hadn't thought of.

[Justin]

No, it's not like that. I think. It's just. I think more of him as a person. So impressive. It was more the personal thing because he's an impressive person. He's. He's very warm, he's very open. He's been brilliant for me. He supported me in moments when he's probably seen I need a little bit of support. He's text me at different times. He's just a human skill stand out for me. But of course, a fantastic winner, won trophies at the clubs he's been at. So that's what makes me excited about this tournament.

[Jake]

He's not the only impressive man in the room.

[Justin]

Right.

[Jake]

You know when you were at spurs and things were difficult towards the end of Thomas Frank's time, what were you able to do for Thomas Frank to help him in those moments, do you think?

[Justin]

I just. I always was supporting, supporting first to person and then coming up with some potential solutions. I just felt like, okay, should we try this? Should we do that? And the staff were all great. All the staff at Tottenham was trying to look for ways to get more out of the players. We changed system, we tried different things. We were always just looking for solutions and Thomas was at the forefront of that every day. We looked for, okay, how do we make this team better? How do we perform better than the previous game? So it's just that support as a number two, you're always trying to look at ways of supporting the manager, supporting his ideas, supporting the game plan, supporting the players, helping the players develop to get results on the weekend or midweek

[Jake]

and with the perspective that life's given you in the last couple of years. When it did end at spurs, how quickly were you able to flip that switch?

[Justin]

Well, I was gutted, first and foremost. It was a tough period because I felt like if we could have. It's like the odd goal is. Every game is the odd goal is two ones. Three twos, one. Nils. There was never any real devastating results towards the end in Europe, we'd done fantastic. So, yeah, of course you gutted, you gutted, but you just. Okay, now I had to think, what comes next? I've got to keep going. I've still got the England and the England camp to look forward to in March, still got the summer to look forward to and an opportunity maybe to spend a bit more time with my boy. So I had to look at the positives. But still up to today, you miss being in that day today, delighted when the team won on Sunday. So you're watching, you're thinking, go on, go on, go on. You want them to be successful, you want them to do well.

[Jake]

Well, listen, you're on the verge of a big period in football.

[Justin]

Yes.

[Jake]

Can I ask you how you assess, like the vibe or the feel in a team?

[Justin]

Well, I think called the vibe scale. You need to always need to get the vibe, right?

[Jake]

What's the Vibe scale?

[Justin]

I think sometimes you've got to feel how things feel. I think there's lots of data in football, lots of measurements, lots of metrics that people search for. But you want to get the vibe right. Especially going to a tournament where you live together for six to seven weeks, hopefully. You got to make sure that people feel comfortable, people feel there's energy. It's not too serious. It's always serious, but it's not too suffocating. Players need to feel free, they need to be able to be themselves. So how do you make sure you get the vibe right? I think that's important in any environment.

[Jake]

How's the vibe?

[Justin]

Yeah, it's exciting. It's exciting times. I'm sure the players are excited, but there's a big few weeks to happen in the Premier League, the FA cup, the European competitions, so we'll see what pans out then. And then hopefully then it will be all set, ready to go to the

[Advertiser 3]

US and are you sat in the

[Damien]

selection meeting for the final squad?

[Justin]

Do you want to know? You want to know, don't you? No squad.

[Damien]

I don't want to know who's in it. I'd like to know what, like, what's the criteria for selecting players? Because we assume it's about picking the 26 best players, but it's more.

[Justin]

I think it's just a team. I think the team is what's going to be successful. So there's so many players, there's so many good players, there's so many players to choose from. It'll be tricky making the final decisions, but ultimately the manager will look at the construction of a squad and then make the decisions based on what he feels is best, but beyond the talent

[Damien]

that we'll take as a given that there would even be in that conversation if you could describe the certain characteristics of the players that are going to make up that squad. What are the three behaviors that. That are going to be consistent?

[Justin]

Of course you have the talent to play and be effective in your position. You've got to be a good teammate. You maybe need to have a super strength. So if you're not going to be a major starter, are you someone who can offer something off the bench? Are you something that can offer someone in a. Have you got a specialist in penalty taking? So there's. Are you brilliant on set pieces? So there's probably different phases of the game where someone can offer something because all 26 are not going to play minutes. So you need to make sure that everyone there can be a good teammate, predominantly, and then offer something to the squad when called upon.

[Jake]

Listen, we're obviously excited for the World cup this summer, but I think more than that, all of us are delighted that someone like you, who's been through such a challenging 18 months, has got the opportunity not just to do something over the summer that gives you an escape, but also an opportunity to take your boys out to the United States, let them come and watch some. Some international football. How are you and. And your boys doing now?

[Justin]

Yeah, we're doing. Doing okay. We have some ups. Some ups and downs in terms of feelings and. But we're learning how to navigate them more. So now we talk a lot. We talk about Leanne a lot, but we're doing okay. I'm doing okay.

[Jake]

I remember, obviously, I was working with Rio when he sadly lost his wife, Rebecca. And, you know, he. He was so creative in the things that he did. You know, they had a room where you could go in, and it was full of photos of Rebecca, or there was a jar. You could write down your memories or your thoughts and put them in the jar. And I know that there'll be people that will see that this is the conversation we're having today, and they will come to this conversation because they, too, are going through a grief journey or they, too, have something on the horizon that they're scared about. What advice would you like to give people who are either in this or fear they're about to go into this?

[Justin]

I think you've got to be kind to yourself. I think you've got to look after yourself. You've got to do something for yourself each day, whether that might just be getting out in the open air, getting some fresh air, going for walks, call upon support. And I'd say that you can only do your best in the scenario that you're in. You can only do your best each day. So some days are different to other days. You can't be perfect every day, but I feel like doing something for yourself every day is important. Getting out and being a little bit active, no matter what. It'd be a walk, some exercise, potentially. But most importantly, I'd say you need to talk, need to. You need to speak about how you're feeling. Find someone that it might be, someone that you don't know. You might have to call a helpline. You may have. You need to speak. I think in speaking, you can let out and you can pro. It helps with the processing.

[Jake]

What would Leanne. What would Leanne think of how well, you've coped.

[Justin]

I think she'd just be proud. I don't think she'd be too surprised. I think she would know that I would find a way to keep going and do what's best for the children. So I think she'll just be proud.

[Jake]

Yeah. And let's also remember that before she passed away, she gave you the strength to do this as well.

[Justin]

Exactly.

[Jake]

Well, I get the impression that you're not parenting on your own.

[Justin]

No, I've got a brilliant support network around me that I'm very fortunate because some people don't have that and I'm aware of that too.

[Jake]

Right then, time to finish with our quick fire questions. What are your three non negotiable behaviours?

[Justin]

So I think three things that I value and that I live my life. I think you need to keep going. So whatever you face, you need to find a way to keep going. Second one would be respond well. So whatever happens to you, small things say to my sons, you need to respond well. Be measured, think about it, try your best to respond well and then help others. I think they're the three things that I'd like to. I'd like to think that I prioritize and expected my children to.

[Damien]

What's the best piece of advice you've ever received and why?

[Justin]

Yeah, so my wife, Leanne, she had, she had a saying that she said to me that I think I always think back on, and she said, you need someone to love, something to do and something to look forward to. And there'll be times where I'd be having a bit of a lull and think, oh, I'll realize I've maybe got something to look forward to at the moment and then maybe I'll do something with my friends, my close friends, or we'd book a holiday. So I think that's something that I live by as well.

[Jake]

What is your biggest strength?

[Justin]

I think my biggest strength over my professional career, I'd say, is the ability to learn. I think I'm good at absorbing information, listening to other people speak, reading stuff, absorbing information from coaches and probably applying it in my context. I'd probably describe myself as a good learner.

[Advertiser 3]

What's your biggest weakness?

[Justin]

Switching off to think about that. When I was planning this stuff, I was thinking, yeah, I'm not very good at switching off Dame. I need to get better at that. Switching off and being still.

[Jake]

What advice would you give to a teenage you?

[Justin]

I'd say just enjoy the present moment, have fun, enjoy being young, but also learn anything. You can from anyone. You can as well, like be. Be even a learner at a younger age. I probably started learning how to learn when I was early 30s.

[Damien]

And the final question, what's your golden rule for anyone wanting to live a high performance life?

[Justin]

Yeah, I thought about it. Listen to the show. Listen to the show over the years. I think how I describe that is I think the high performance is like, that willingness to do what needs to be done when it needs to be done, with effort, discipline and consistency. And actually think of a person. When I thought about this and someone I worked with at Brentford, a kid called Josh Filio who's worked in the kit department, I'd describe him as a high performer because we'd prepare the training and he'd come up and he'd wait outside the office for me and Kevin o' Connor and he'd be like, what do you need, guys? And every day he'd be willing to come and put the mannequins exactly where he wanted. He'd put the goal, mini goals on the pitch too. He'd put the markers down. If the markers had any mess on it, he'd clean it. The balls were pumped perfectly. The balls were such a level of detail to what he did. And I felt he always did it willingly, win, rain or shine, freezing cold, he would come up willingly, get the balls ready, get the equipment ready, get the tape out, get the flat discs ready, and then he did it with effort, with discipline and consistency. When I thought about this, I thought, Josh Hillier reminded me he's a high performer.

[Jake]

I love that. Listen, thank you so much.

[Justin]

Thank you.

[Jake]

Final question. How is it in the world that you're in, even in 2026, after everything you've been through, to be a coach at the top level of the game and still be vulnerable like this?

[Justin]

Yeah, it is. It is me. So I will always be myself. So I'll tell the truth and. But I don't see a lot of. You see bravado quite a bit, but the more people you speak to people and you realise that there are a lot of people who are vulnerable, a lot of people who are open in football and who speak because the well being of players now is really important with social media, with some, with what they go through, I think people need to be vulnerable, we need to be supportive. People have open environments to help players through what they're going through and be at their best.

[Jake]

And listen, I know that there'll be fear about what does what happened to Leanne do to our children. But, you know, we've spoken to so many people on this show who have only sat here because they went through a trauma at a young age. And there is so much evidence that that can light a fire in someone that people who haven't been through a trauma can never really relate to it. Nobody would wish that on your children to have lost their mum, but it certainly doesn't write their story for the

[Advertiser 1]

rest of their lives.

[Jake]

And, you know, I'm very sure with you as their dad, they're gonna go on to do some amazing stuff.

[Justin]

Thank you, Jay. I hope so, too.

[Jake]

Top man. Thank you. Thank you, Damien.

[Advertiser 3]

Jake.

[Jake]

That is a man who, as we heard in that conversation, has a really deep understanding of the things that actually matter in life. And I wonder whether one thing we can all take away from that conversation is the things that we think are important are so often not the things that are actually important. And if we all have the opportunity to finish this conversation or watch this episode and go and hug our partner or kids or parents, we should make sure that we do that. Because, you know, life is fragile and precious, and sometimes it's a conversation like that that is important to remind us of what really matters in life.

[Damien]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Advertiser 3]

Like when I was listening to Justin, I was. That Carlo Ancelotti quote that football is the most important of the least important things in life came to mind because he's a man that's working in an industry that many people are passionate about. But the reality is, when you step away from it, he's a father and he's a grieving husband. At the moment in time, I thought it was raw, it was very real. And I really commend him for being prepared to make himself so open and candid.

[Jake]

I'm also pleased to hear that football, which often has a reputation for being cold and calculated and cutthroat, is a world where if you're a coach at Brentford and you have a personal tragedy, the club puts his arm around you, Christian Norgaard reaches out, the manager protects you. It is still an industry where Thomas Tuchel, the England coach, under big pressure, trying to build his team for the first major tournament, will still reach out to someone who is in a really difficult personal place and says, you take all the time you need. We still want you part of this team. I think I feel good about the world of football for having heard that conversation.

[Advertiser 3]

Yeah, yeah, that's very true. I think how many people have told us over the years when we've been talking to them, like, whatever your industry and It's a people business. The best cultures put people first. And I think there's no surprise to hear that when Justin went through such a horrible time, the ones that you would admire, the ones that you would expect were the ones that demonstrated, stress tested, that people always come first in their world lesson for that, that hopefully we don't have to go through such horrible experiences as what Justin experience. But we can all recognize that when somebody is having a hard time, somebody's having a tough day, somebody's just had a bit of difficult feedback, be the one that just goes and gives them that little bit of humanity.

[Jake]

And over the next few weeks, we're going to get glimpses and see shots of Justin, you know, taking training on the pitch before games or on the on the bench with the England players hopefully leaping in the air when England victoriously lift the World Cup. But even that is a reminder for people that spot him and see him having heard this conversation, that you now know his story.

[Justin]

Right.

[Jake]

But there are thousands of people walking around with stories that we don't know. Yeah. And we have to remember that everyone is carrying a weight that is unseen. And full credit to Justin for sharing his story to help other people on here. But let's all just live with that reminder that everyone's carrying something. Yeah. Thanks, mate.

[Damien]

Brilliant.

[Advertiser 3]

Thank you.

[Jake]

No problem at all. Look, if you've been affected by anything that you heard in that conversation with Justin, please make sure that you hit the show notes down below for some advice and some help. And thank you so much for listening to the conversation. As always, you can watch as well as listen on Apple podcasts. You can check us out on YouTube or you can listen to High Performance wherever you get your podcasts. And if you know someone that could benefit from hearing that conversation with Justin, please feel free to send them the episode. Thanks very much for listening. Hit subscribe and we'll see you again for another episode of High Performance.

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