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The High Performance Podcast
The Man Behind Bodø/Glimt's Champions League Miracle | Bjørn Mannsverk (E407)
00:55:28
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- [00:05]
Interviewer
Now you're a former F16 fighter pilot, you've never played football, you've got no interest in the sport, and yet the club that you work with have just beaten Manchester City, Atletico Madrid, then Inter Milan in the Champions League. Tell us, how does that happen? Bjorn, welcome to High Performance.
- [00:29]
Bjorn
Thank you very much.
- [00:30]
Interviewer
Now you're a former F16 fighter pilot, you've never played football, you've got no interest in the sport, and yet the club that you work with have just beaten Manchester City, Atletico Madrid and Inter Milan in the Champions League. Tell us, how does that happen?
- [00:45]
Bjorn
How does that happen? No, I think we have to go back to my background as a fighter pilot. And to keep it short, we did an experiment in 2009, 2010 that was mental training. We didn't really know what it was, but we just was looking for something we could train outside the normal fighter pilot stuff. And it was quite a new method in a way, and it was well received by the pilots, by other personnel at the squadron, and the effect was also very good. And then some Years later, in 2016, when Bodeglimt were supposed to celebrate their 100th anniversary and it was a crash and burn. So even though they believed that they had the skills to remain at the top level, they didn't manage and they realized that this is caused to a collective mental collapse. And they also realized that they didn't have any way of training within the mental aspect. So but by accident they came across this mental project, the mental training, in my squadron, many years before, just a few hundred meters actually away from Asmira Stadium in Buda. And they liked as well the method and how it was received and well aware that mental training, there was a little bit of stigma around it. Okay, what do you mean by that? I think that they have seen or they have tried something during the career and seen that sometimes it hits, sometimes you really get a pushback and then the locker room kind of closes for a year or two. And they were afraid of that happening. And personally I think that mental training is very closely related to mental health, bad mental health. So if you do mental training, you have a problem. That's my personal perspective. But they liked it and they thought that if it worked for a fighter pilot, we believe it's going to work for a football player as well. So that's when Border Glint made contact.
- [03:03]
Interviewer
Now you're going into the Bodogland dressing room just when they'd been relegated. Yeah, yeah. What can you describe what it was like?
- [03:13]
Bjorn
I didn't have any Reference first of all. So I just had to see what I saw. But actually I just watched them playing some games and I could easily see that there was a lot of bad energy, like they were not united, a lot of aggression towards referee decisions and so on. So that was what I saw. But other than that I more had to depend on the information I got from the club itself.
- [03:43]
Interviewer
What were you being told?
- [03:45]
Bjorn
No, basically I was told that they claimed this was a collective mental collapse and that they believe in. And then when I met them for the first time, I met the coach team, I did a presentation based on my references from the fighter pilot culture and from the mental training at least and kind of a plan. They responded very well and they also promised to be part of this journey and they fulfilled that promise. So this is not a one man show. You can easily point at me, but I will point back to many people. So this is a joint journey. So they liked the idea and other than that they picked out some players that we believe they have a potential but they are struggling and maybe you can help them. I was quite clear that I had to do this on my spare time because I had a full job on full job plus. So I said I can do this in my spare time but I can't take all. But anyway, you need to give me that volunteer in a way because I already experienced from our own project in the squadron that you can't force this on people. I mean people are chief in charge in their own life. They make their own decisions that will impact their life. So we need to save time. It's going to be a waste of time for me and for them if they don't want to even try. So when I meet people I can kind of say that hey, I know you're volunteering. That is, I also believe that you're willing to try something else.
- [05:27]
Interviewer
So tell us a little bit around what was the like you've got players and that have volunteered, they recognize that they've experienced a mental collapse. They want to get better. Tell me the first thing that you would do with somebody that sits in front of you then.
- [05:41]
Bjorn
No, it's more to get to know them. So basically let's start talking about something. I think I'm kind of my thing in a way is that when we talk there's suddenly there is something I can't really. I don't really follow you. It doesn't really make sense. So I become curious. I normally say that I'm kind of holding you tight now for a moment and Ask, hey, could you explain that? And go a little bit deeper. So in a way, then I hear how they are thinking and a lot of the times it doesn't make sense. This is only making sense in your head. But as soon as you have to explain it to me, they kind of understand themselves that this is not completely right. Or we can discuss, could there be different ways of thinking and could you change your perspective when it comes to that? So that's a typical situation. But it turned out that I would say that we had a flying start.
- [06:43]
Interviewer
Would you tell us about some of the specific ideas that you've introduced to the club?
- [06:49]
Bjorn
What I have introduced? Yeah. Again, I think that the way it works is that we end up with something, but a lot of the times we really struggle to figure out who came up with the idea.
- [07:02]
Interviewer
Sure.
- [07:03]
Bjorn
So it's just a process, but what we have done, I think that the first thing that kind of surprised me when I came into the club, beyond that, they didn't have any mental training. I thought everybody had it because I knew from my own background that this was so powerful, even though we were top athletes as fighter pilots. So that surprised me. The other thing was that the extreme focus on results, it was a matter of just winning games and taking points. And obviously that's why we're in for it, to get good result. But the focus were way over the top in a way that if we win a game, it's a good performance, if we lose a game, it's a bad performance. And that does something we're learning, we get so biased. So that was really strange for me because I came from a background where we couldn't really look at the result. As a Norwegian fighter pilot, luckily you never went to war, but we understood that the consequences of not performing well enough, if shit hit the fan, that could be fatal for you and the system in itself. So we were really motivated to always improve, to become better. So that was my kind of. I say, most likely I'm a little bit damaged out of being in that culture for more than 20 years. But that was my default when I came in. So that was a collision. But I said, okay, I just have to continue to argue my way in a way and realize that to change culture it takes time. I mean, culture is a mentality. The way we are thinking, it takes time. So I was Talking to my eight, 10 players for one and a half year, always kind of manipulating them into believing in focusing on the performance, not the result. And in general, January, we started in May, June 2017 and January 2019. I had this last meeting around with one to ones and then we met in a group session and they were supposed to leave for preseason camp a couple of days later. And I heard that they have a tradition to meet the coach, team and the players on that pre season camp and come up with ambition for this season. So I heard about it. So I said so what do you think the ambition is going to be? I was like, I'm going to be top five and we need to so many points on blah blah blah. And I was so tired of this. I gave him quite a heavy pushback and said, why don't you just focus on your own performance, what you can control. And it was a little bit resistance, but then they were ready and then I said yes, that's a good idea. And then this Hovarskhar Jason, we always did this together. So he just took that information and shared that with Chettiknut, which was the head coach at that time, and said this is the status with half of the players or the leaders or the ones participating in the program. And he was like, yes, that's the way we're going to go. And we never had that meeting. So we haven't had any results goals since January 2019.
- [10:34]
Interviewer
So you're a football club that doesn't set goals, doesn't set targets, doesn't talk about winning?
- [10:39]
Bjorn
No. And Jjetti Knudsen told me that that was the final brick or the missing brick. And now he felt free, free to maneuver, to really focus on making the steps and move in the right direction.
- [10:57]
Interviewer
So what did they talk about? If they' talking about winning, then they
- [11:02]
Bjorn
still talk about winning and losing, but you just have to continue to focus on the things that you can control. And I mean for us the most important mentality and as a performance culture is that we need to focus on the things, on the right things that we can control. Saying that. What I'm actually trying to say is that we do have a limited capacity of time and energy and we need to spend that on the most important things and basically don't waste time and energy on things that you can't control.
- [11:37]
Interviewer
So what are the most important things?
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Bjorn
The result is not fully controllable. We know that there are factors that will impact the result. So for us it's not efficient enough. We need to spend it on other stuff. So you can do it on. Focus on obviously nutrition, preparations, focus, intensity, present when you are on training, recovery, sleep. It's so many things that you can fully control. But as long as you don't get tempted to start controlling like the other team, are they going to be better than us? Maybe. We don't know. We just need to be loyal to our game plan and do as good as we can. So that is our mentality in in this we call it sustainable performance culture. A performance culture is basically where we in culture you need culture is always people.
- [12:36]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [12:37]
Bjorn
So it's mindset. So we will work with individuals, but we also work with individuals working together.
- [12:43]
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- [12:48]
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- [13:27]
Bjorn
The Scouting reports in Unlock the savings at Boost Mobile get unlimited wireless for 25amonth forever and keep your phone. It's a veteran move. Unlock the savings@boostmobile.com Unlock 25 forever requires customers to remain active on Boost Mobile Unlimited wireless plan. For full offer details, visit boostmobile.com this is a Monday.com ad the same Monday.com designed for every team. The same Monday.com with built in AI scaling your work for from day one the same Monday.com with an easy and intuitive setup. Go to Monday.com and try it for free. On the individual side it's a matter of if we can make you as strong as possible because it's going to be a heavy load being a high performer, especially over time. So you need to be as strong as possible. First of all you need to secure your foundation, then strengthen it as much as you can and then we focus more on we all have a potential. So even I have a potential. It's not big as a football player, but I have a potential. But this is where I think mental training is focusing because even though we have a potential, we really struggle to get a full potential out. So what's left is what we call the performance. But there is a big piece of that cake is friction or disturbances and it's most likely the way we're thinking. Well selft Talk.
- [14:55]
Interviewer
Okay, so let's. So if. If you're. Permit us beyond. Let's talk about some of the individual techniques and then we'll talk about how this manifests itself in the team environment. So you talk around doing meditation and get the players to do that in their kit. Yeah, Explain the meditation.
- [15:12]
Bjorn
Yeah, we can go. We can start. Because that's the basic. And even though I say it's no quick fix, in mental training, there is a shortcut, and the shortcut is awareness training. And that was what we did in the squadron because we were presented the model of the Olympic top athlete center in Norway. And this is how we do mental training at different levels. But we do realize at that time it was like. We do realize that it doesn't really matter where we're working in the model. There is always one common factor and that's you need to be present, and it's actually pretty obvious. So we are wondering if we put our effort into just basic awareness training, can we get aggravated effects? Do we get side effects without even practicing it?
- [16:09]
Interviewer
So describe what awareness training looks like.
- [16:12]
Bjorn
Yeah, awareness training, we use the mindfulness approach. But I think that if you spool even further back to understand why do we need mindfulness training? And me and you, we do have a lot of things in common, I would say, because if we go all the way back to our ancestors and back in the Stone Age or whatever, we have a special type of people that survived. And that was the people that kind of picked up that movement or that noise. And they also, in addition, they had a brain that was always thinking, this is not good. I mean, drama kings and drama queens, that was the one. And then they thought that something's going to eat me. I don't care what it is, but I think it's going to eat me. And you climbed in the top of a tree and. Or hide in a cave, you survived. So that's us. We have the same brain. We have kind of an autopilot in the way of thinking. So the ones that picked up that movement or that noise, they get kind of credit for that. But that also means that we are not really good on keeping focused. We get easily distracted. And it's one thing that is quite important when you want to perform. It is to be present. It is to be in the present moment because that's where you're performing. And this mindfulness training is basically, it's not to increase the length that you are focusing. It is to be really good to discover that I lost focus.
- [17:50]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [17:51]
Bjorn
And Then I will be really quickly, quickly return my focus to the most important thing to perform. So that's the very basic with this mindfulness training. So you are basically sitting down and meditating and you figure out that since I'm sitting in a quiet room, I'm sitting still and I'm closing my eyes. There are more or less no external inputs, but still I lose focus. And that is basically some thoughts, some feelings, or it could be some body signals. And you just have to get into that zone or test it out to realize how big impact it has. And our way of thinking is that first of all something is about keeping focused. But the other thing is that realize that, wow, this is the way I'm thinking. And you can't really control it. It comes and go in magnitude and in directions. But we do believe that how you think and how you feel will impact your decisions. So it's better to at least be aware that no, I'm afraid or I'm really upset or angry or jealous or whatever it takes. So this is the basic for the mental training, the mindfulness training.
- [19:07]
Interviewer
So you do this mindfulness training. You ask the players to wear their football kit in the dressing room while they're doing it. Would you explain why?
- [19:15]
Bjorn
No, I didn't. We tried to do it like in a normal setting. So we basically met in a room and sit on chairs and meditate and we, we also forced everybody we put all in the club including the coach team and the medical team. So the room was full. But the explanation and the effect is quite clear, scientific findings as well. But it is so boring and people don't really necessarily see the effect quickly enough. So it's hard otherwise everybody would do it. But some really pick up on this mindfulness and Ul Saltis was one of them. So he got really strong on being aware on how he's thinking and how he's feeling, but also being more sensitive what's happening around. That's why I think it's been so important to kind of make our development and where we should focus during the time.
- [20:21]
Interviewer
And you mentioned as well about the voluntary nature of working with you and the input that you do. Why is that important?
- [20:29]
Bjorn
It was a waste of time because I had limited time available, but also on the receiving end if they were really against it. But we kind of changed that as well. So right now I do one to ones with all the players a quick catch up. But this was something that the captain's team wanted because we always tried to make new steps and we figured out that Chatel was asking, okay, what's an intention within the mental aspect this year? And we said, why don't we just ask the captain's team? And then came up with like, hey, we need to go back to the group sessions. And what about the one to ones? Asked everybody. So they made a decision.
- [21:16]
Interviewer
Brilliant. So tell us about the group sessions because you spoke about having friction meetings.
- [21:21]
Bjorn
Yeah.
- [21:22]
Interviewer
Describe that.
- [21:23]
Bjorn
Yeah. So we've been describing now the individual, the model, like foundation performance and obviously to develop your own skills. On the more organizational part, this was more directly related to my experience from the fighter pilot community where we are the experts. We need to meet and evaluate what we're doing and being able to identify lessons and find fixes and share that quickly. We also need always to kind of attack, I call it attack what we're doing continuously improve. So it's like what we did yesterday, it is not necessarily good enough for tomorrow. So it's more like more than just evaluating one game. It's like more like how we defend over time. And obviously a top layer is where we together try to be creative and develop something, make smarter solutions. So this was what I was used to. And this was also an eye opener for me when I started in bulging because I did these one to ones with those 8, 8, 10 players and they were talking, blah, blah, blah, no problem, one to ones. And then I figured out, okay, my job is just to put them in one room and obviously they know a lot of football, I don't. So I put them in their room and I said, please start sharing. And it was totally silent. So then I understood that they haven't trained on this. They're not well trained on this. So I identified. They didn't have a dialogue with the coach team either. There was a monologue, not because the coach wanted that, but they didn't respond. So then we had to really roll it back and say that, okay, we need to practice. So first we need to expose ourselves. So we should talk about something. It doesn't really matter. Get used to that. And then when we get used to that, then we know now we need to tweak it towards talking about the right thing, what is the right thing for us right now. And then maybe we could start criticism and criticize each other or being skeptical or to help identify to improve. So we try to do all these processes with just the players and then suddenly we really succeeded. Where they start sharing, they are, they are competing against each other, but they start sharing the good stuff with each other.
- [23:59]
Interviewer
Explain More on that. I'm fascinated.
- [24:01]
Bjorn
Yeah. Because I think that if you talk about sharing, it's like, hey, we should meet. And if we are struggling with something, we can ask for help. That's pretty obvious because there is an incentive. It's incentive for me if I'm struggling to get the solution from you. So I win on that. You lose in a system where we don't trust each other. So for us, for me at least, it was like a really important day. When I saw that there was a player sharing something good with the ones he was competing against at the same role in the team, then we see that the trust is there. So I believe, basically when I share something that I'm good at with you, I strongly believe that you will give me back something in the future.
- [24:53]
Interviewer
And did you see that happen?
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Bjorn
Yeah. So it was like they didn't hide for each other, were more open, but it's still a struggle. Obviously we are not perfect, but experts coming together and discussing is important. And also they came up with findings that like, we don't really believe in this, the way we defend each other or part of the game, the way we are supposed to play. And we've been trying this for months now. And I felt that they're starting to lose faith in that. I said, okay, but then I think it's important that we bring this out of this room and meet the coach team to discuss this.
- [25:41]
Interviewer
And the players would then take that.
- [25:43]
Bjorn
Yeah. And that's part of the training. Make you accountable for your own career and for the team and be bold enough and brave enough to face the coach.
- [25:55]
Interviewer
Which then brings me then beyond to the ring, the fellowship of the ring, the tifo that the Borough fans have got. This is the one that when your name is mentioned, it's synonymous with it. It's not me, but would you describe what is the ring?
- [26:12]
Bjorn
Yeah. As I mentioned, in this organizational part of the work, meet, learn and share, continuously improve and then develop or where we need to be creative. And this was also a very important date. We have been discussing how are we going to kind of stick together when people are making mistakes so we can. We can hug each other and so on. But my perspective is that we did meet in a group session. This was on the way out of the pandemic in Norway. We've been playing. We started to play it without audience or spectators, but now it was like, I think like 2, 4 or 600 was maximum at the stadium. So it's really quiet, really quiet. But the week, the following week, we are in traveling to Poland to play. I don't remember the team, but basically they were opening up. So it's going to be like 30,000 people on the stadium. So that was the right thing to talk about. So what that's going to happen next week? What's your thoughts? And then they just start sharing perspective. It's going to be great. A lot of people, a lot of energy. And there's going to be noise. And this is the players talking. I have all the voices now. So it's going to be a lot of noise. So, yeah, I guess it's going to be hard to hear the coaches. It's actually going to be hard to hear each other out on the pitch. Yeah. So so basically we. We have this talk before we go. The game starts in the locker room and then we have in. In the break. And. And so then. Yeah, that's. That's it. And then I just throw in some. Some. Some like in handball at least the coaches have a timeout card. So you can throw that in on the table and you get, I don't know, 60 seconds or whatever. So you can change your tactics or whatever. And then everybody was kind of laughing. And then one of the guys was like, no, but there is a break. And people are like, what are you talking about? Every time the goal is scored, there will be a natural break. Yeah, that's true. That we can gather. How are we gather? Who's going to take the initiative and how are we going to form it and what are we going to talk about? And they kind of invented something new. And then we said that they liked it. They said, yeah, this is a brilliant idea.
- [28:43]
Interviewer
So just for closet. So this would be either when bodo score a goal or when borough concede a goal. The players will come together in this ring.
- [28:51]
Bjorn
They can. They can use it. So they don't use it all the time. So we have obviously examples when we are really on the defensive side. But I also recall when we were playing another game and we were actually in. In Europe and this was the day before the match. And. And I asked them, okay, what about what should be the focus for tomorrow? And then some of the place I said, yeah, yeah. Recently it seems like when we have scored a gay, scored a goal, we kind of a couple of minutes later, we kind of. We're lowering your intensity or something like that. People like, yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, maybe we should take a ring tomorrow when we score. So then they took the ring to just get her. Hey, pay attention now.
- [29:40]
Interviewer
Now I don't know if you're aware of this at the moment Bjorn, but there's been a debate with Chelsea Football Club that they get together in a huddle and people think it's performative rather than it actually makes a difference. So tell us a little bit about the huddle. Who'd like who, like who initiates it? What do they say within that huddle and what do you think the benefits of it are?
- [30:04]
Bjorn
Yeah, actually I don't know because I'm never listening to when they join during a game. But basically anyone can form it. Okay, yeah but you can see it's like they understand kind of now we see need to get together but it is not like it's more like hey, we need to refocus. Forget about this, this is important. Now I believe it's something that very, very constructive, very to the point from. And, and that's the benefit of having a lot of captains as well.
- [30:37]
Interviewer
So tell us a little bit around how the captains are selected. You said there's eight of them, the captain's team.
- [30:42]
Bjorn
Yeah, yeah. Actually that was my third surprise when I came to football because they had one captain and for me it's a matter of leadership. So if you're going to have some one leading the players, why do you end up with a grumpy one? So I was like okay, how do you pick a captain? And then I said why do you only have one? Because I'm used to from the fighter pilot business. Even though I was the squadron commander, I was not necessarily leading every training mission. The formations. You had a group of people that they were qualified to lead. For instance for jets and they will just be evenly shared. So everybody gets a chance to practice because it's a difference between being a lead and being number four in a formation. So the good thing is when you are a lead you can really feel on your body what you need from your wingmans and flight leads to perform and then the next day you are the wingman so you know what the lead needs from you. So it's is a good dynamic and it build obviously something within you. Confidence and self esteem but also knowledge on leadership. It's a lot of leadership. So that's what like why don't we have more captains that rotate on playing as a captain? So we ended up with three for many years and it is kind of a pilot, you test out something but obviously we got the feedback. It was good. The captains just to talk together who's going to be captain today? Yeah, I've Been sleeping a little bit not perfect last night or I've been captain now for two or three games and I'm a little bit weird out and could we change? So they all saw the benefit of that. But me and Hovar, we really believe that we should increase the numbers. So it took a while to convince Hjetl that this is smart. Because then and I think that in combination that we now were a point that we understood that culture is absolutely the most important thing, a good culture. And realizing also it's hard to dictate players to have a culture from the outside. We need to. Instead of losing the locker room, we're going to take it from the inside. So we will have more captains to do the job, make them accountable, responsible. But also identifying captains that do have the values, the attitude, they walk the talk and they don't need to be perfect in the mindset or the performance mindset. They don't even have to be playing a lot of that doesn't matter. But they all should volunteer to play as a captain if they get the chance so they can feel this responsibility. So then we ended up with eight. Right now it's seven because one retired from football. But I hope we get back to eight pretty soon because we also use them in the group sessions. So then we split all the players into four groups, so we are down at 6, 7. That's a good group dynamic. And there will be most likely two captain in each group. Then they are sticking together and they can really run this group session, not me or Horwide and this cycle. If I can share that, the cycle is that right now because everything changes. But right now it's like I have a one to one, a shortcut, catch up with all the players. And it's like, hey, we are in bona group session next week. So do you have any right things to talk about a topic that could be relevant for everybody? So I get all these inputs. Then I kind of figure out that I think these could be important topics I could have on some of myself or get some inputs from.
- [35:03]
Interviewer
And what kind of topics do they offer you?
- [35:07]
Bjorn
It depends. It could be we've been working feedback culture, initiate a project around that and then we get the status on that and what do we see? It could be medical team or. Okay, but it can't be like a small thing just relevant for you how we arrange traveling or. Yeah, so it could be different things. Then we meet the captain's team, me and Holaer, and then we share our perspectives. Do you have Any perspectives? It's basically pre planned, the group sessions. So we make a decision that we think these are the topics we should bring into the group session and have a discussion. Then we spread out small comfortable groups. It's not risky to share. No coaches present. And then they speak more freely. And then we join again. So what happened? What's the biggest takeaway? And then we prepare for meeting the the coach team and also that strategy. How are we going to approach them? And then they meet, they discuss, they come up with some kind of decisions. This is going to be our 1% improvement on the coach side or on the, on the team side. And then they feed it back to all the players. That's kind of the.
- [36:26]
Interviewer
Have you ever had a player that doesn't fit within this culture?
- [36:30]
Bjorn
Basically you need to get rid of them.
- [36:33]
Interviewer
Has that happened?
- [36:35]
Bjorn
Yes, I think so.
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Interviewer
And so how does the process of the rejection of that player from the culture happen?
- [36:42]
Bjorn
Normally I would say that make it a good story in a way that you can move on and we can move on so you can kind of follow your own dreams. So I think that should happen. I think that should happen not only in sports but in business as well, because that's what we see. That culture is so important, but you can have a really strong culture. But if you have a few individuals that are cheating or something, it's really disruptive. So you really have to protect that.
- [37:21]
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- [40:20]
Interviewer
started this journey in 2017 almost like the apex when you came to global consciousness. Was the 61 defeat of Roma, Jose Mourinho and all. Yeah. You've described that as one of the first times you've ever seen the potential of a group actually manifest itself.
- [40:40]
Bjorn
Yeah, potentially. Group. I don't know the potential of the group, but that's what's the first time when I saw the philosophy, our philosophy played out.
- [40:47]
Interviewer
Describe it.
- [40:48]
Bjorn
Yeah, the philosophy was sustainable performance culture. So as I mentioned, if you have the athlete, the player, like the strongest foundation they can have right now, that they are playing up to their potential and they continue to develop the skill set, that's what we expect from you. Nothing more but nothing less either that you do as good as you can in all these aspects. And if you can put 11 of those into the team and you put on our values when it comes to the team. Values like you need to be loyal to the game plan and the way we gonna play. And also this brother and sisters in arms attitude that we stick together, it doesn't matter if we win and lose together, but we also try to play each other as good as possible. Okay, then the team is performing at this.
- [41:39]
Interviewer
So they're your three values about loyalty.
- [41:42]
Bjorn
Brothers and sisters, we call it performance development, loyalty. And then this stick together, this produce in arms. So those four values, we always refer to that. Then we think the team will perform at it best and we will get a result as deserved over time. And this was what I saw in the game versus Rome where I saw so many players playing up to their potential and I knew some of them had made giant leaps when it comes to development. And they did this as a team with loyalty and this brother in arms attitude. So we got the result that was deserved. That was the first time I saw that played out all the way. And we've been nitty gritty on the details for so many years and finally we bloomed.
- [42:37]
Interviewer
So tell us about the dressing room after that. Then you get back into the dressing room. You just defeated Jose Mourinho's team 6:1.
- [42:46]
Bjorn
Yeah.
- [42:46]
Interviewer
You don't talk about winning. So what's the conversation?
- [42:50]
Bjorn
We celebrate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that time I think we did was home game and away game. Yeah. Then we normally don't celebrate until we're done with both the games. So. But it has changed. Obviously people get enthusiastic, but I see that over time when this mentality is really all over you, that's you. You see that these victories is not that important. It is like, oh, this misunderstand me correctly. But it's like this was great. What's next, right? Yeah.
- [43:29]
Interviewer
What did Mourinho behave like after a humbling like that, do you know?
- [43:35]
Bjorn
No, he behaved then that time. He behaved, but. But it didn't go well after that. But he was using his power technique. I remember he was like cozying up in Face Face of. He had the Knudsen. But
- [43:51]
Interviewer
what did he do?
- [43:52]
Bjorn
No, he was just up in his. In his head and like doing that. And it was like. That was a power play. You can watch it on YouTube. And then it changed. He's using all the tricks. But what I heard, that's kind of a fun fact. You're talking about the ring. And the ring actually became such a focus area for Rome when we played, I think in the quarterfinal, they have a match meeting, I think the day before with UEFA. And then Rome kind of claimed that they should be prohibited to use the ring during the game. And I thought, then, this is great effect.
- [44:34]
Interviewer
Yeah. Great artist steel, eh? So then tell us about some of these other incredible results. Talk about Manchester City. You've got one of the richest clubs in the world turning up in the Arctic Circle.
- [44:47]
Bjorn
Yeah.
- [44:48]
Interviewer
What was the preparation like leading into a game like that?
- [44:53]
Bjorn
I think we are not perfect. And even though we have a philosophy and not focusing and talking, talking about result, people do get affected. We are all people. Yeah. Yeah. We are afraid of making mistakes and we are afraid of losing something. We're more afraid of losing something than gaining something. That's our Stone Age brain, in a way. So they are not perfect. And I think that when we finally qualified to the Champions League, we started to play. We played actually pretty well, I think, but we didn't really managed to get those points and the final. So in a way, we were hoping for the knockout phase, or at least the playoff. And then at some point it was like, you can forget about that. I think it was like 0.3% chance before the last three games, Dusseldorf or Dortmund. And I remember I met them in Spain just before that game and we were talking about this and it was like, okay, guys, now you can really let go of the expectations. You have nothing to defend now you can go out and play. And even half the team were sick as well. Then we kind of played a draw against them. So then we were like, wow, cool. But still, Manchester City, no way we can just go out there. There's no expectation. And they managed to have no expectations. And then I think again, we met Manchester City maybe at the weakest point in this season, and they were up in the north a Lot of benefits on our side, but we played really well. And then it became a surprise for them. So it's great fun to see them when they are unafraid in a way. And that also with Atletico Madrid, it's like still. And suddenly it's a miracle we continue. So it is still. We are not perfect. Not at all.
- [46:58]
Interviewer
But there's a really intriguing pattern that you've described here. Whether it's with the individual players or collectively as a team, that when you remove that sense of expectation, the liberation that follows their freedom tends to happen. How are you preparing to go though, from being the hunter to the hunted? Because now that you're developing a reputation, you're being seen as more than just giant killers.
- [47:26]
Bjorn
Yeah.
- [47:26]
Interviewer
How are you dealing with that sense of expectation?
- [47:29]
Bjorn
It's the same deal. We. We try to focus on ourselves. That's the only thing we can control. But we. I think that we, we still. We see that we. We have been beaten hard in the National League now by our. The previous champion, Viking. That was a five, zero. And. And it's. We're not. We're still good. But the mentality is like, now we face people that. Or face team that really knows as well. I think that's the. That's been a benefit, I believe in. In the Europe game. Nobody knows about Buddh right now. They know about Buddha, but still it's like, no, can't be like that. So that's a benefit. But back home now we get nothing for free. Nothing for free. So we need to change that mentality. And we also need to be hungry and again go out and perform. And that's Jettel Knudsen always is like, I don't give a damn in the results. Go out and perform. He always says that. So that's the basic story. That's the recipe.
- [48:38]
Interviewer
So after the sport in Lisbon game, you win 3 nil in the first leg and then are defeated in the second. What's the conversation like in the dressing room after that?
- [48:48]
Bjorn
They were pretty good. We also have this, this. This captain's team is also responsible for a quick debrief in the locker room after the game. So out with all the medical team and the coaches and they are alone and. And I was quite impressed with them because then. Then they managed to get in the locker room. They were really, really disappointed. They were heavily beaten. They fell, felt that they failed and they were ashamed and all that. But the captain team, they stepped up and said that, hey, no, we can't focus on what we did. Not Achieve. We have to look at all our achievements and we are still good, even though we were not good today. So I think that lifting up that mentality impressed me and they do it by themselves.
- [49:36]
Interviewer
So tell us about staying hungry then. How are you going to get this team to keep this hunger, this curiosity, this willingness to keep going into their growth zone?
- [49:47]
Bjorn
Yeah, personally, I believe that the motivation, the inner motivation is that I always become a little bit better. I learn something new, I always become a little bit better. And I think that's also related to when I'm saying that when we achieve something, it's not that important to. It's like, what's next? So even I remember, even the first time we became champions in the National League, first time ever, it was like, party. We are ready to party. And then like, no, let's move on. So I think that to keep the hunger, you need to really, really embrace this. I'm learning something new. And by that you also have a stronger motivation to get out of your comfort zone, into the growth zone and kind of enjoy having to struggle with stuff. And I see that with Patrick Bargh. He's really great on that. Now I'm struggling. I love it. So it's something like that. But the risk is always that you can become a little bit fat, nappy.
- [50:59]
Interviewer
And what about you? I mean, this has been an incredible journey that you've been part of. What's been the biggest learning that you've gained?
- [51:10]
Bjorn
Biggest learning? I think we have developed appreciate. At least, I really appreciate our philosophy that we have developed. It's very oriented, it's very warm when it comes to people, individuals, because it doesn't matter if you're a football player or your middle of your career is something that you really can bring on the rest of your life. And it's. It's sustainable in a way that it's going to last, but also realizing that you can't use more than you. You have. So I think that I really love that philosophy. I think it's really warm. It's not like you try to squeeze everything out of people and then. And then leave them. What I also learned, and that's not from football, but it's like we talk about our brain design, that we all come from the same place. And what I see is that even though I meet so many skillful people, I mean really skillful people in what they do, they do different things, it turns out that everybody turn out to be people. People are people. We are all human beings. So we face kind of the same challenges, but we also have the same opportunities. So that's why we try to keep it simple in the way we work. Because it doesn't matter if you're a portfolio manager in the Norwegian Oil Fund or a fullback in Bude Glimt or a fighter pilot or a business lawyer. People are people. They kind of respond on the same things.
- [52:54]
Interviewer
And my final question then, Bjorn, to this fascinating conversation has been that culture's probably one of these most used and abused terms within the corporate and the sporting landscape. What you've described here breaks down culture into something very tangible. How much difference do you think it really makes to the ultimate performance of a team, the culture?
- [53:20]
Bjorn
I think that's. If you can call, you can also. I think you can take this mentality or mental work and that will be a really big part of this culture. It is the way we are thinking and it's the way we work. So we say it's mentality and process. That's how we do. And absolutely the biggest factor for us, obviously they need to have some kind of idea on the football side and the technique and that's taken care of. But by far the most important thing. And I think that the more you talk about it, but you also need to challenge all the time. What do you mean? It is like an energy debate. We are lacking energy. Okay, so what kind of buttons are we going to push now? What do you mean about energy? What do you mean about culture? We need to have more. We have to develop a more precise language in a way. What do we mean? What is good culture? What is not good culture? And we also need to make sure that everybody knows what's within and what's outside. So you can correct behavior that is not within the culture we want in plenary, for instance.
- [54:39]
Interviewer
See, I think one of the things that has made you extraordinarily special in terms of what you've done at Bodo is that you've taken an abstract idea of culture and even today you've made it really practical, tangible and accessible. What's the biggest mistake that people make when it comes to trying to create a high performing culture?
- [55:06]
Bjorn
They're not able to disengage from looking at the result. Yeah, because you get so biased when you know the result. And I know that good result can hide bad performance and the other way around. So I think that's the biggest mistake. And that's what I hear a lot of people talk about. We are only focusing on performance, but I can clearly hear that they are mixing it up for us. So I think Patrick Barge, one of our captains, he said that officially that I don't think anybody is as specific on this as usual. He can also clearly hear that or see it when he goes other places that we are quite unique in the precision of that. But it takes time. As we said. It's not a quick fix. We've been working on that for years and we still obviously we fail and we have to onboard new people in the way of thinking. So we're still human beings. We still struggle, you know.
- [56:07]
Interviewer
So if we can finish with some quick fire questions then around your work and the culture that you do, would you describe the three non negotiable behaviors that people have to buy into when they come and join?
- [56:21]
Bjorn
I think it's clearly you have to be really skillful and talented if you're going to play and disregard the behavior. But we want people to be themselves because we believe you're best on being yourself. But also take feedback so you can adjust if your behavior is not good. You need to take. You need to be loyal to. To the way we're playing. You need to try to play each other better.
- [56:57]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [56:58]
Bjorn
So I guess that was more than three.
- [57:01]
Interviewer
There's four. Yeah. They relate to the values.
- [57:04]
Bjorn
Yeah, the values. It's all over. Values is all over in. In a way. And there's an interesting thing in. In Buddha Glim they also developed what we call employees promises in a way that normally what I see is that when you come into a business the. The business kind of promising the employees this. If you work for us, we will give you this.
- [57:31]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [57:32]
Bjorn
We turned it around. We said that when you're part of bulglimt you promise us to. And that is also based on the values. I will like the values and the method. I will share what I learn. I will ask questions, I will criticize. So it's all that kind of.
- [57:55]
Interviewer
And the players agree to this.
- [57:59]
Bjorn
That's a strategy document. So I don't think I believe some of the players. They don't know about it at all. We do it all the time. That's our culture in the first team. But we have a bigger organization. We put it in. But it's the principle of just hey, you need to commit to the team is the most important.
- [58:22]
Interviewer
So what's the greatest piece of advice you'd give anyone that wants to create a culture similar to this?
- [58:30]
Bjorn
I think you can start. The most effective tip is basically ask yourself the question that what I'm not wasting time and energy on or we are wasting time and energy. Can we. If that's uncontrollable, we need to stop doing that. Can we control it? That's the most important question in your own life, but also as an organization. And then the next question is, what are we using time on energy? Is that the most important, important thing? And, and that, that's basically my, my. The mantra in the, in the fighter pilot community was like train as you intend to fight and you turn it around to a question. But we are now spending time and energy on. We really need to believe that this is what we need. If we, if shit hit the fan and we have to go to the war train as if we intend to fight.
- [59:18]
Interviewer
Intensify.
- [59:19]
Bjorn
Yeah, I love that.
- [59:21]
Interviewer
Bjorn, I've loved this whole conversation. It's been so rich and so detailed and thank you for being so candid with us. It's. It's been so illuminating.
- [59:29]
Bjorn
Well, thank you very much.
- [59:30]
Interviewer
Thank you.
- [59:45]
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Bjorn
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