What Are You Actually Afraid Of? | The Truth About Fear & Self-Doubt

Summary

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Podcast Summary: High Performance Podcast

Episode: What Are You Actually Afraid Of? | The Truth About Fear & Self-Doubt

Hosts: Jake Humphrey & Damian Hughes
Release Date: May 27, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Jake and Damian dive deep into the universal experience of fear and self-doubt. They explore how top performers—from sports stars and business leaders to entertainers—manage, confront, and even harness fear as a driving force for achievement. The conversation is rich with personal anecdotes, insights from previous guests, memorable quotes, and practical advice on reframing fear to unlock your potential.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Experiences: How Fear Shows Up (01:17–04:00)

• Damian Hughes shares that fear manifests as anxiety and is a physical sensation—“in my stomach is wherever is where it registers first” (01:31).
• Jake Humphrey reveals his personal fears—finance and health, especially the unpredictability of health when you have a family. He describes himself as a “catastrophizer” whose fear motivates proactive action: “I fear the worst all the time. Therefore I run towards it and think, better do something about it. So it's kind of an energy source for me” (01:47).
• The conversation transitions to fear in parenting and sports, using Jake’s son’s football final as an example: “...when it starts to go wrong, nothing feels worse... it's relevant to fear because also... all of those things will start coming in your head” (03:17).

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2. Fear as a Suffering—A Stepping Stone to Growth (04:00–06:03)

• Jake recounts advising his son to expect suffering in challenging moments and to recognize it as temporary and surmountable.
• He attributes his own career breakthrough to reading Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway (Susan Jeffers): “You will always feel fear. The secret to life is to do it anyway... And I actually thought growing up that successful people, high achieving people just didn't feel fear, so it was easy for them to be successful...” (05:25).
• Almost all High Performance Podcast guests admit to feeling fear just before their most significant achievements.

“There is no one that we've spoken to who hasn't felt fear often just before their greatest triumph.” —Jake Humphrey (05:48)

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3. The ‘Cave’ Metaphor & Success on the Other Side of Fear (06:03–08:01)

• Damian invokes Joseph Campbell:

  “The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek.” (06:15)

• Discusses the key idea: fear is a signal that we're close to something important, whether it's a difficult conversation, a new business, or chasing a dream.

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4. Nico Rosberg’s Struggle With Fear (08:01–09:40)

• Upcoming guest and F1 World Champion Nico Rosberg describes severe physical symptoms of fear ("my foot started shaking… not a little vibration… but a bouncing... I couldn't accelerate properly anymore because the foot was bouncing").
• He shares his techniques for handling panic in high-pressure moments and regaining composure.

“Just luckily I got through this sequence of corners with a bouncing foot… and that was enough, that by the time I got to the next corner, my foot slightly calmed again.” —Nico Rosberg (09:21)

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5. Fear, Busyness, and Decision-Making—Jameela Jamil’s Insight (10:09–13:36)

• Damian discusses the fear-driven compulsion to always be “busy,” which manifests as saying yes to everything out of insecurity or fear of irrelevance.
• Jameela Jamil reflects on society's glorification of busyness and the wake-up call post-pandemic:

“Why are we postponing pleasure? Why are we postponing love and community and friendship and connection for all this shit?... I spent 15 years never taking a week off... just to impress a bunch of strangers.” —Jameela Jamil (12:19)

• Both hosts discuss consciously reframing busyness: prioritizing productivity and honesty about personal capacity, rather than constant activity.

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6. Reframing Self-Doubt & Overthinking (16:58–18:18)

• Jake and Damian argue that "imposter syndrome" and "overthinking" can actually be tools for growth and indicators that you care deeply.
• They urge listeners to reframe these experiences as positive: “Being an overthinker is simply getting your thoughts in order." (18:01)
• Expert Steve Peters is referenced: "That's your brain doing its job perfectly well." (18:35)

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7. High Performers on the Positive Power of Fear (19:19–21:54)

Scott McTominay’s Perspective (19:19–20:34)

• Self-doubt is universal, even among elite athletes: “That self doubt comes in, then you start thinking, no, no. If you do everything properly and take it step by step, yeah, of course I can.” —Scott McTominay (20:24)

Phil Heath on Vulnerability & High Performance (21:13–21:54)

• Phil defines high performance as “a relentless pursuit... while being your most vulnerable self… being in the darkness, but recognizing the light within to navigate through that darkness.”

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8. Naming Emotions: The Power of Labeling Fear (22:34–26:04)

• Damian, referencing Simon Sinek and Steve Peters, explains the importance of labeling and articulating emotions to move from reaction to response.
• Example: Transitioning from jealousy to envy to taking action, as demonstrated by comedian Catherine Ryan.

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9. Growth Through Acceptance Rather Than Resistance (26:34–31:26)

Robin van Persie’s Journey (26:36–29:02)

• Van Persie discusses battling not just opponents but his own emotional reactions during matches; with the support of his wife and Arsène Wenger, he learned to “choose battles” and not let missed opportunities or provocation drain his energy.

• Key realization: “It was heavy, but I was making it heavy.” —Robin van Persie (29:02)

• Damian and Jake reinforce acceptance over resistance:

  “Stop trying to fight it and accept the feeling. Accept that you don’t feel good and watch what happens... my resistance had dropped from a 10 to a 3 or a 4.” —Jake Humphrey (30:54)

• The lesson from therapy and addiction treatment: surrender to the feeling, then find better ways to respond.

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10. Audience Questions & Final Reflections (31:47–34:15)

• The hosts address questions about guests like Ronda Rousey and David Coulthard, emphasizing authenticity, vulnerability, and the myth that high achievers are immune from fear.
• Jake closes:

  “The more we talk about these things, the more we give other people the right to talk about these things. And when you do that, it helps.” (34:15)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek.” —Damian Hughes quoting Joseph Campbell (06:17)
• “You will always feel fear. The secret to life is to do it anyway.” —Jake Humphrey (05:25)
• “That self doubt is what drives you and pushes you to do more.” —Scott McTominay (19:47)
• “Being your most optimal self... while being your most vulnerable self... being in the darkness, but recognizing the light within.” —Phil Heath (21:24)
• “It was heavy, but I was making it heavy.” —Robin van Persie (29:02)
• “Stop trying to fight it and accept the feeling. Accept that you don’t feel good and watch what happens.” —Jake Humphrey (30:54)

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• 01:17 – Personal Experiences of Fear
• 05:25 – Feel the Fear and Do it Anyway
• 06:15 – The Cave You Fear to Enter (Joseph Campbell)
• 08:08 – Nico Rosberg on physical fear in Formula 1
• 12:19 – Jameela Jamil: The cost of glorifying busyness
• 18:35 – Steve Peters on “Imposter Syndrome”
• 19:19 – Scott McTominay: Self-doubt as fuel
• 21:24 – Phil Heath: Vulnerability and high performance
• 22:34 – The importance of naming emotions
• 26:36 – Robin van Persie: Choosing your emotional battles
• 29:02 – The idea that “heaviness” of fear is self-created
• 30:54 – Accepting difficult feelings as a path to relief

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Conclusion

This episode makes clear that fear—and the behaviors and emotions it brings—are not only universal but essential to high performance. Rather than viewing fear, self-doubt, or overthinking as faults, listeners are encouraged to see them as resources, indications of caring deeply, and signals for growth. The hosts’ practical techniques—articulating and accepting fear, prioritizing honestly, reframing negative feelings, and drawing on the wisdom of high performers—offer an inclusive, empowering message: the real victory lies in what you do with fear.

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Next Episode Preview:
Nico Rosberg, 2016 Formula 1 World Champion, goes deeper into how he managed overwhelming fear in his racing career.

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If you or someone you know is grappling with fear or self-doubt, this episode offers both practical tools and the reassuring truth that you are not alone.

Transcript

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[Jake Humphrey]

Hi there. Welcome along to another episode of High Performance with myself, Jake Humphrey and me, Damian Hughes with a very simple question today. What are you actually afraid of? How present is fear in your daily

[Damian Hughes]

life, do you think, Damien, it shows up as anxiety? I feel it. My stomach. I recognize when I feel nervous or when fear shows up. I can fit. It's in my stomach is wherever is where it registers first. What about you?

[Jake Humphrey]

I think fear for me shows up. I only have fear over two things, finances and health. Like, because I think I can pretty much cope with everything else. Right. I think I feel the pressure from building businesses. I think people often think, oh, if you've built a business that's, you know, like, one of my businesses has 300 staff. Oh, that must be lovely. No, it's not. Because one bad month or, or a few bad weeks and you have got such huge outgoings that you feel the pressure every day. And I think health is like the thing that you can't control, especially when you've got children and you're married. Like, you just, you're not worried about yourself so much. It's everyone else's health all the time. And I'm. I also know that I'm a catastrophizer, which I think is one of the reasons why I've had the career and the life that I've had because I fear the worst all the time. Therefore I run towards it and think ra better do something about it. So it's Kind of an energy source for me in a strange way. And the reason why I wanted to talk to you about fear was because I was on stage doing a presentation a few days ago to a business and I was talking about how, like, life was pretty run of the mill, if not the. Even worse than that, a bit crap when I was a teenager. Yeah. By the way, sorry about my voice. My son had a Cup final this weekend.

[Scott McTominay]

Oh.

[Jake Humphrey]

And I was, I cheered and screamed so loudly.

[Damian Hughes]

How did they get on?

[Jake Humphrey]

They did win with a last minute or a late penalty. And the video of me going like that, I mean, why am I so excited about kids football? How did that compare, talking about fear.

[Damian Hughes]

So how did that compare to, like,

[Jake Humphrey]

Norwich getting a promotion million times, million times more exciting than Norwich getting promoted or even hosting a Champions League final, or like, there's nothing comes close, nice to watching your kids play sport, but actually it's relevant to fear because also, like, when it starts to go wrong, nothing feels worse. And they were 31 up and 43 down after a tricky few minutes. And then eventually they won. So I was kind of pleased in the end.

[Damian Hughes]

Well, let me ask you then. So going to talk about fair in more detail. What. So when you speak to Seb and maybe he's feeling nervous before Cup Final or like the anxiety spiking, what do you say to him?

[Jake Humphrey]

So interesting, because this was the first time we'd ever heard of a conversation where I explained him on the way to the final, bearing in mind he's only 10, so it's always all been about, enjoy it, have fun, relax. But I knew that he was nervous ahead of this one because when you're in a final, you want to win it, right? You feel so close to winning it. And what I actually explained to him on the way there, I said, you do know that you're going to have to suffer today? He said, how do you mean? I said, there will. I promise you, Seb, there will be a moment in this game where you feel like you're not going to win. And all of those thoughts about your mum and dad and your sister and your coach and your teammates and what people at school are going to say. All of those things will start coming in your head and actually that's a really interesting moment for you to remember that it's just fun, it's just a game of football. But I promise you, and we'll talk about it afterwards, you will suffer. There will be a hard moment in this game and actually to be 31 up and 43 down, having conceded three goals without reply. He did suffer. And I could see actually the way that he and all of his teammates were playing at that moment. They were suffering. Luckily, Seb actually scored to make it four all. And at that moment, obviously the psychology means that they are there than ones with freedom. And the team that were winning and are now drawing are the ones that have the fear. And the. The reason why this is so relevant is because, as I said, I was doing a talk the other day and someone asked me, how did you go from failing your A levels, being fired from McDonald's, never really succeeding at anything, to suddenly ending up on the telly and all that? And I was bought a book, My Voice is so Bad. I was bought a book called Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway by a lady called Susan Jefferson. And the whole premise of the book was, you will always feel fear. The secret to life is to do it anyway. And I actually thought growing up that successful people, high achieving people, just didn't feel fear, so it was easy for them to be successful. But actually, if you and I look back now at the hundreds of conversations we've had on this show, there is no one that we've spoken to who hasn't felt fear often just before their greatest triumph.

[Damian Hughes]

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, there's that great quote from the sort of Godfather sociology, Joseph Campbell, who says, the cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek.

[Jake Humphrey]

Say it one more time. Say it one more time.

[Damian Hughes]

The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek. Because the point he's making is that success is on the other side of fear. So most of us, when we feel fear, it means that we're close to something important. It might be a difficult conversation. We need to have that. We need to recalibrate the relationship. It might be making a decision to start a new business. That means that we're fearful of the insecurity that might follow, but that's the cave that we have to enter. That's the fear we have to confront to be able to get to the other side of it, the treasure that we seek. So you're right, every high performer we've met, whether it's been, as we're going to hear later on, clips from Phil Heath, the Mr. Olympia seven times. We're going to talk to Jameela Jamil about it. We're going to Talk about Scott McTominay, the Italian footballer of the Year, about how he had it for 21 years at Manchester United. There's so many examples that we could draw on of people that have had to go into the cave that they fear to get the treasure that they seek at the other side of it.

[Jake Humphrey]

And actually, the next episode that we release on High Performance is Nico Rosberg, the 2016 Formula One world champion. When we went and interviewed him in Monaco, like, we spoke for almost two hours, what percent of that conversation do you think was about him overcoming fear?

[Damian Hughes]

Well, 80% of it, I think so. 80%, easily. When he talks about the being chased down by Lewis Hamilton in 2016, when he's going after it, when he enters the pit lane for the very first time. And Michael Schumacher, he describes him as a God. Don't. He stood next to him and thinking, how can I compete with that? That it's so rich. Should we listen to some of it?

[Jake Humphrey]

Yeah. Here is a very short clip of Nico Rosberg, which you can hear very soon here on High Performance.

[Nico Rosberg]

So I was so scared of losing my dream and of messing up and crashing that my foot started shaking, but so violently that it wasn't like a little vibration. Yeah, it was a bouncing. Which I've never. I'll never have again in my life.

[Jake Humphrey]

Your accelerator foot.

[Nico Rosberg]

The accelerator foot. So I'll never have. Because the accelerator, you have to. You're kind of, you know, you're being precise with it. So when you. When you try and be precise with your hands, you also see a shake coming, you know, and so I'm trying to be. But it was shaking so violently. I'll never again have that in my whole life. Yep. No way that I. Then I couldn't accelerate properly anymore because the foot was bouncing. And so then it obviously is a mental spiral because then your head says, okay, my foot is bouncing so much that I can't drive anymore. So then the foot just bounces double as much. And just luckily I got through this sequence of corners with a bouncing foot. Verstappen still staying behind me somehow. And then I got to the straight. The next part was a straight, and so I could push the whole leg through. So normally you accelerate with your foot. And here I used my whole leg to push it through into the throttle pedal, and somehow it then did full throttle.

[Jake Humphrey]

So I was driving down the street

[Nico Rosberg]

like a reset moment, driving down the street like that. And that was enough, that by the time I got to the next corner, my foot slightly calmed again, which then your head says, okay, maybe it's not as bad as it looked. And so I just managed to somehow get my foot into a state where I could drive the car Again.

[Jake Humphrey]

Oh, such a cool conversation. And honestly, it was such a rich episode. You can hear the full chat on our next episode of High Performance. Nico Rosberg hit Subscribe now and you'll be the first to get the conversation. Let's go into one of the clips then, from our previous episode of High Performance. I thought maybe we could start with Jameela Jamil, because I think one thing that's really interesting from this clip is that she spoke about how her decision making was controlled by fear. Yeah. How often do you see this in the elite settings that you work in?

[Damian Hughes]

Oh, all the time. I see it in. I see it in business, if we use that as a sort of an arena where I see often showing up, you know, people talking about themselves, being busy, people being productive, people constantly on the go, always having to make decisions, always being active. And it's something that I've reflected on myself. At the start of the year, we were talking about microhabits, and I wanted to introduce a microhabit in my life, which was that I found myself often from a place of fear when people say, how you doing? I've got. Oh, I'm busy.

[Jake Humphrey]

Yeah. And what is the fear?

[Damian Hughes]

The fear of being irrelevant, the fear of not being useful, the fear of not being able to provide for my family. So.

[Jake Humphrey]

So let me get this straight then. Is the fear that you always say yes to everything, so therefore you actually are busy? Or is it that you say you're busy even when you're not, so that people think that you're relevant?

[Damian Hughes]

No, it's the first one. So it's the idea of saying yes to everything because it comes from that place of fear of insecurity or sometimes not being able to provide, or like I say, sometimes not, like, worried about being relevant or being useful. So saying yes to everything has led to me being busy. And then I found myself catching myself telling people, I'm really busy. And I realized that I was wearing it almost as a badge of honor. I'm busy. Look at. Look how useful I am. Look that I'm doing what I should be doing. And I realized that it actually wasn't a good thing. I realized that I was diminishing myself while I was trying to blow my own tires up. So I made a promise. My microhabit was to stop telling people I'm busy and start saying I'm productive or I'm working on things that I'm

[Jake Humphrey]

enjoying and say no.

[Damian Hughes]

Yes. Yeah, very much. And getting into the habit of just going, no, I don't want to be busy doing it, I want to enjoy doing it, or I don't feel that I can do that in a stress free way, that it would diminish from me. So trying to get into that habit is almost inspired by this conversation that we had with Jameela Jamil. We've heard it from Jameela, we've heard it from Vicky Patterson a couple of years before. I've always feeling that you've got to be on the go, you've got to be busy, you've got to be constantly present and that takes its toll. Let's have a listen to Jameela explain it.

[Jameela Jamil]

My idea of success being very much so, what I do, not just for others, but especially for the people that I love, how much I'm able to show up for them, how much I'm able to appreciate this life and this planet and how well I use my time. And that does not involve working an 80 hour week anymore. And it's a huge position of privilege from which I can say that because there are some people who are like a single mother of five or something who have to. But I do think that it has just become a generally hyper normalized thing that just a hustle, hustle, hustle, acquire, acquire, acquire. Sleep when you're dead, rest when you're retired. And I think post Pandemic, a lot of us had a wake up call where we were like, hang on a second, what the fuck are we doing? Why, why are we waiting? Why are we postponing pleasure? Why are we postponing love and community and friendship and connection for all this shit? And so I don't mean that to sound as judgmental as it just did. It just, it's more a judgment of myself of why I spent 15 years never taking a week off, never really spending meaningful time with my friends, having them go through huge moments in life that I wasn't there to witness just to, just to impress a bunch of strangers.

[Jake Humphrey]

So cool. There she is. Jameela Jamil on High Performance. That was episode 244, which is almost 50% ago on high Performance. We're now sort of almost double that number of episodes. And of course, if you enjoy any of the clips from these guests, then you can, you can click the link in the description and you can listen to the full conversations.

[Damian Hughes]

Can I advise anyone to go and listen to that and stick with it in the end? Because she still gives us what I would still regard as the best answer to the question of what is your weakness?

[Jake Humphrey]

Yes, let's not Ruin it for people that haven't heard it. But it was. We were open mouthed, weren't we? I think this is really interesting, this idea of never taking a break and sort of not resting and not relaxing. And I think often it's so hard for people and there'll be people listening to this now who are like, yeah, but that's me, but I don't know what to do about it. So let's talk then. You've shared that you've made a conscious decision to say you're less busy. I think what I did was try and reframe what being busy actually looks like. Because I think there's being busy and then as you said, there's being productive, there's being useful, there's being of value. And actually I think that that great phrase, if everything's a priority, then nothing's a priority is never truer than when we're overly busy. But it's so hard to say no to people. So what I've actually decided to do in the last six months is be really honest about my own capacity levels. Because what I used to say to people is, things are busy at the moment, but I'll come back to you in six months or I let you know when things quieten down and it feels like you're fobbing people off.

[Damian Hughes]

Yeah.

[Jake Humphrey]

Whereas actually vulnerability is so important. So if someone now messages me to do something and I am like overly busy already, I just, I just reply or I voice note them or I email them and I just say, look, nothing would make me happy than to say yes. But to say yes to you is letting you down because I won't deliver, but also laying me down because it will overly stress me, but also letting down all the other people I'm already doing things with and I just simply don't have the capacity. And I know that the first thing that will fall is my own well being and the second thing that will fall is the relationship with my wife and my kids. And I do have to protect that stuff.

[Damian Hughes]

Brilliant.

[Jake Humphrey]

So I'm just gonna have to say no. But I really do appreciate you.

[Damian Hughes]

And what's been the reaction to sharing

[Jake Humphrey]

that every single time people have said thank you so much for being so honest. I totally get it. In fact, I feel the same. But I had to ask and I think often we think that people are gonna think less of us or it's gonna be a real issue for them that we said no 99% of the time. They've probably asked three or four people the same question. Yeah. And they're waiting to see who comes back and says yes. And I think, you know, you don't have to give them such a complex response like no is a one word sentence. Right. But equally, I do think that personal relationships are important and at some time you may well be able to help or you may well require a bit of help or advice from them. So I think just shutting people off with no thanks, not for me, is a very different message too. Course I'm like, I'd love to help you, I love helping people, but I'm just not currently able to do it. And I think that's absolutely fine.

[Damian Hughes]

That's brilliant.

[Jake Humphrey]

I love that.

[Damian Hughes]

Cause that's a really elegant way, isn't it? Of an honest way, an authentic way. But I like the idea of it gives you a plausible explanation of it that most people can empathize with.

[Jake Humphrey]

Can I also talk about what I think is a really good fear?

[Damian Hughes]

Go on.

[Jake Humphrey]

The fear of not being good enough. So, so many people that listen to this show will reach out to us and ask about imposter syndrome. And I think we both now have the same opinion that A, it isn't a syndrome, B, it isn't a negative. It is a great thing because it sharpens you at the time that you need it. If you're sensing that you've got imposter syndrome drama, it means that you care about the thing that you have imposter syndrome about. But I've also increasingly had people reach out to me saying, I'm an overthinker, I'm an overthinker. It wears me out. I think too much about stuff. I dwell on things, I reflect on things. And again, I really want people to understand. And we'll play a couple clips here about a couple of overthinkers, a couple of people that struggle with self doubt. The reason why I think it's so important is that people think that being an overthinker is an issue. Yeah, but look at how often you've come up with the right answer. Would you have come up with the right answer if you weren't an overthinker? Being an overthinker is simply getting your thoughts in order.

[Damian Hughes]

Yeah.

[Jake Humphrey]

And I think we, we, we give it a negative connotation when we should give it a positive connotation. Like if you say, oh, I think deeply about stuff, people go, oh, that's cool. Wow.

[Damian Hughes]

Yeah.

[Jake Humphrey]

If you say I dwell on stuff a lot, people go, oh, you need to stop doing that. You don't need to stop doing that because they're the same thing.

[Damian Hughes]

Yeah.

[Jake Humphrey]

And I think often. And we'll hear from a couple of the guests, you pick which clip you want to play first. Often the elite performers that we speak to on high performance are elite performers precisely because that voice, that doubt, that fear, that overthinking is present and it never goes away.

[Damian Hughes]

Yeah, I like that. I recently chatted with Steve Peters at an event who was talking about imposter syndrome and he was like, that's your brain doing its job perfectly well.

[Jake Humphrey]

It's what it should be doing because

[Damian Hughes]

it's saying there's something important to you and you're questioning whether I have the ability to meet it and if I don't, what do I need to do to be able to address that challenge. So, yeah, I think it's a great idea. Should we listen to one of my favorite footballers of the last few years that we've certainly sat down and spoke to, Scott McTominay, because we met him when he was still at Manchester United and he was still meeting the challenges there. But then he faced the fear of leaving his comfort zone, going out to Italy, and has thrived in a new league.

[Jake Humphrey]

Here he is.

[Scott McTominay]

Everyone has it. It's just how you control that and how you manage that in terms of your craft. Doesn't matter what you do, if you work wherever or if you're in a different sort of sort of job or you're an athlete. Everyone has that time where they think, I might not have been as professional as I could have been there. And we've got a game coming up, can I still do it? And that keeps going around in your head thinking, can I keep performing at the level that I'm going? And that is ultimately what fuels me, the self doubt.

[Damian Hughes]

Does it?

[Jake Humphrey]

Yeah.

[Scott McTominay]

Because you always think, every season you come back, am I the same athlete? Can I still score? Can I still potentially make an assist? Or can we still win trophies? And that self doubt is what drives you and pushes you to do more.

[Jake Humphrey]

So how often are you questioning yourself, your ability, your talent, your approach?

[Scott McTominay]

A lot more than what people would. More than what people think. They'll see some footballers going through an amazing time in the career where they're winning trophies, scoring loads of goals and stuff like that. They'll still have self doubt in the brain thinking, next game, can I do it? I've scored a goal against Wolves, can I score the next goal? That was my first goal in the Premier League. And then I was like, yeah, I'm delighted But can I get another? And that self doubt comes in, then you start thinking, no, no. If you do everything properly and take it step by step, yeah, of course I can.

[Jake Humphrey]

So good that. And I think Scott would agree with us. Even after the success he's had in Italy, that voice is still there. What about next season? What about the World Cup? Yeah, you know, can I really keep this level up? I think it's so valuable. Can I play a clip as well from Phil Heath? Oh, God. So he is multi times mischievous. Easter Olympia. I mean, you know what, it was one of the most kind of spiritual and deeper conversations we had. Remember him talking about going past the graveyards and the cemeteries and how that kind of kept him grounded.

[Damian Hughes]

Those emerald green eyes, didn't he? That really sort of like drew you

[Jake Humphrey]

in and unbelievable muscles.

[Damian Hughes]

Yeah, that bit, yeah.

[Jake Humphrey]

I mean, what a body. Phil Heath, have a listen to this. This is also a cracking, cracking clip from high performance. What do you believe high performance is?

[Damian Hughes]

Oh, man. A relentless pursuit. You know, giving yourself permission to be the, your most optimal self, but doing it while being your most vulnerable self. Because it requires all of that, you know, being in the darkness, you know, but recognizing the light within to navigate through that darkness. And that's where you meet performance at its highest level.

[Jake Humphrey]

So really what we're saying to people is whether you're listening to what you think I think Scott thinks or Phil thinks. Life is not about avoiding the negative thought. It's about processing it, understanding that it has an important job to do and that without it, what's the alternative? Just not thinking deeply about things and diving headfirst into bad decisions all the time?

[Damian Hughes]

Yeah, exactly. It's about recognizing that it's a signal that's telling you this is important to me. There's something significant that I need to address here. And having the willingness not to think that courage is the absence of fear. It's the willingness to go and be comfortable with those moments of discomfort.

[Jake Humphrey]

Would you talk to us a bit about the psychology here of naming your discomfort or talking openly about it in a group?

[Damian Hughes]

Yeah. So if you think about like these emotions, remember Simon Sinnett when he spoke to us about. We often don't have a language for our emotions. So do you remember when he did that experiment with you about the best friend test and he was getting you to talk about what would your best friend say? What is it that's significant? And he said that you have to keep going back and asking the question, well, what is it that I do for you? What Is it that my presence? Why are you my friend? I'm willing to do that because he says we don't have a language. And we'll first of all go, oh, I like you, or you make me laugh. And then eventually you get into those deeper emotive answers where you go, I just feel better being in your company. You make me feel more optimistic about the world. And he said, but our emotions often don't have a language attached to it. So we feel them before we can articulate them. So the idea of being able to take them and name them and label them gets it out of our head and allows us to be able to explore it and address it. So again, another great example is we referenced Steve Peters and he gave that example of if you give somebody two balls, they can juggle it. Give them three, they'll start to struggle. Anything over four, most people will start to drop it. And he talks about our emotions are like those balls. They're in our head and they're constantly there bouncing around. So our ability to get them out on the page or articulate them to somebody else allows us to then be able to then bring our logical brain to it and go, so what do I plan to do with this? How do I plan to address it? So emotion of. So fear is our emotion showing up. And if we can give it a label and often think about it in more subtle ways. Do you remember Catherine Ryan? We sort of bouncing around episodes there, but Catherine Ryan used the example of. She said if she saw Michael McIntyre with a Saturday night show, she used to say, oh, I'm jealous. Why has he got a show and I've not? And then she realized she wasn't jealous, she was envious. And she was envious because she felt she could have a Saturday night show. So when she had that ability to articulate that emotion, she was able to come up with a plan to phone her agent and say, how do I get to have a primetime show on a Saturday evening? So our ability to take these emotions like fear, give them more helpful titles, allows us then to be able to plan. How do we. How can we diminish it? How can we minimize it? How can we address it?

[Jake Humphrey]

It's so good. Because then it goes from being a handbrake to a throttle.

[Damian Hughes]

Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. You know, we've said it before that if we. That if we don't address these emotions, like when your neighbor gave you that book, right. Think about the emotions that you were suffering or think about the emotions that you were feeling at that Time, you know, it might have been insecurity, it might have been this desire to have a better future, but not knowing how to do it. It might have been feeling that I don't quite belong in the groups that you've been. And then your ability to be able to articulate those emotions and then go, so what do I do about it means that you put your hand up. When they asked for volunteers at Rapture to go on the TV thing, it gave you the ability to go, I want to go to London and throw my lot in. Because you'd been able to articulate the

[Jake Humphrey]

fear of pen power. Yeah. So good. Can I play one final clip?

[Damian Hughes]

Go on. Who is it?

[Jake Humphrey]

Robin Van Persie. Have you heard of him?

[Damian Hughes]

Oh, yeah.

[Jake Humphrey]

Oh yeah, I think so.

[Damian Hughes]

He's doing. I've been following how he's doing. His head coach, isn't he, at the moment at Rotterdam. He's had another good season.

[Jake Humphrey]

Yeah, well, I think it's. Cause he's an emotionally intelligent guy and this is what he said to us when we were talking about the importance of doing exactly what you've just said, of naming your emotion, naming your fear, sharing it.

[Damian Hughes]

Let's listen to him.

[Robin van Persie]

If the opponent was like stepping on my toes and sort of trying to bully me, I was going really hard and I was going against it. But in the end, after a couple of. After period, I started to think about that and then it made sense to me. I was like, okay, the reaction I have, I shouldn't have that reaction. I shouldn't go against it, I should stand above it. So that is like a process of a couple of years. Because if I go against it and it will, then it's such a struggle. It was. I was just like, mentally, physically, I was drained after every match for quite a long time, from the age of 23 till 26, roughly. There I was just knackered after every game.

[Damian Hughes]

Was there a particular light bulb moment when something came on and you thought, I need to be doing something differently here, or was it just a gradual process?

[Robin van Persie]

Yeah, that was just. I was talking to my wife actually about it. I was like, I was telling her like that it. That it cost me so much energy, like every game. And then she said, okay, but you have to find a way to. To make that less because then it becomes more enjoyable, everything. And I said, yeah, but how? And then we spoke about that and then I realized that I was like constantly fighting, you know, and then she. She made one comment like, yeah, but you have to choose your battle. I Was like, yeah, you know, I don't want to fight these small battles. I want to go for bigger ones, you know. So then I said, okay, what if I. And as well, I was. If I missed a chance, for example, that did a process as well. I was very emotional after I missed a chance, I was like constantly, ah, no. And showing the world how disappointed I was. And then at one point I was like, yeah, but that's weakness somewhere, you know, then. Because then the opponent sees that I'm disappointed and that I'm not happy with myself. So I slowly start to change that. And I was like, okay, you know, if I don't show my weakness, then they don't have, like, if I don't react on them bullying, if I don't react, if I miss a chance, they don't. Then I become stronger and better. And once I started to do that, I talked with Arsene Wenger about this as well. And then everything became lighter, you know, it was so heavy. It was for all those years. It was heavy, but I was making it heavy. Yeah, it just. I just needed a couple of years to realize that.

[Jake Humphrey]

So that. That line at the end there from. From Robin, it was heavy, but I was making it heavy. I think it's a really important place to bring this conversation about fear to a close, that the fear itself is not heavy. The fear itself is not painful. The fear itself is not bringing agony to our world. It's our response to it. Do you remember what Johanna Conta said? I think it's, again, a really good bit of advice for people listening to this to try and let go of the thing that's actually causing the pain here for them.

[Damian Hughes]

Yeah. Do you remember that? Again, she sort of cited Juan Cotto, the Spanish psychologist that worked with her on this, didn't he? That was like, struggle will always happen, and how you resist it depends on how much pain you feel. So again, it goes back to the cave analogy. Not going into the cave and spending so much time being fearful of what's in the cave and justifying why you're not going to go in there means that it becomes more and more painful. It grows bigger and bigger. As Robin said, it gets heavier and heavier because we frighten ourselves by what we don't know. Being willing to step into that discomfort of going and seeing what is it that frightens me is where the power really lies. We get beyond it. That's where the treasure is.

[Jake Humphrey]

So if our resistance to the fear is a zero, then the fear carries zero.

[Damian Hughes]

Yeah, the pain that you should feel is zero because you anticipated it and we can move on from it so much faster. So Johanna's example was when she hits that beautiful backhand shot and it hits the net and bounces back down on your side, that's always going to feel frustrating. But if you can, then go just laugh about it. It's just a game. I can move on from it and I'll be ready for the next shot. We don't fear feeling inadequate. Then we just prepare ourselves to let's be better next time.

[Jake Humphrey]

I think it's really good. I remember when I was struggling mentally in my 20s and I went to see someone and the first thing that they said was her name was Ruth. She said, the first bit of advice for you, stop trying to fight it and accept the feeling. Accept that you don't feel good and watch what happens. Lifted. Not all, not completely, not instantly, but it lifted. And I think it's because my resistance had dropped from a 10 to a 3 or a 4. It was still there. And eventually I got it to a zero and eventually it went away.

[Damian Hughes]

Well, that's like, from what I understand, that's the genesis of all. Sort of like when you go to addiction therapy, whether it's Alcoholics Anonymous or any of those other billion organizations that help people, the first thing is surrender to it. Don't keep fighting it, don't keep resisting it, but surrender to it. And when you can surrender, then you can find better ways of, of responding.

[Jake Humphrey]

So cool. A couple of questions from the audience. Sally Dillon on the Ronda Rousey, by the way, well done, Ronda. Back in the ring a couple of weeks ago.

[Damian Hughes]

I'd like to get paid $2 million for 15 seconds. So what you got?

[Jake Humphrey]

My goodness, Rhonda, you're such an inspiration. I'm sorry you've been affected by so many trolls who are keyboard warriors. You can hear her talk about that on our episode with her. We'll stick it in the show notes. She says, while I'm a fan and not a fighter, I'm also a woman who's worked in a lot of male dominated industries and you have served as an inspiration. And I use the what would Ronda Rousey do? In my head. And the answer was always work hard, do the right thing and be a badass. Wishing you so much goodness in the future, Jumbo.

[Damian Hughes]

You know what I enjoyed about Rhonda as well as the interview was Jumbo, when we met her in Hollywood and we went and she had a mum and a sister there and we all Went for a drink on the rooftop balcony afterwards and I felt like she let a guard down and she really showed us that she wasn't just a badass. That was like her professional personality.

[Jake Humphrey]

Was that when she bought all of her family and friends and they sat upstairs for about seven hours?

[Damian Hughes]

That's right.

[Jake Humphrey]

And then when they left, the bill came over to us.

[Damian Hughes]

That bit is badass. Yeah.

[Jake Humphrey]

Thanks a lot, Rhonda. Maybe some of that 2 million quid can be passed back to us for the afternoon getting drunk in.

[Damian Hughes]

But seeing her with a mum and her sisters was the bit that.

[Jake Humphrey]

Yeah.

[Damian Hughes]

You saw who she was. She was. She was a really, really special person.

[Jake Humphrey]

Absolutely. A Swanee sent me a message saying, why didn't you ask the question to David Coulthard that lots of people want to want the answer to? And that's when he let Nicker win the last race and the following first race. Why? I've always felt that's why he wasn't world champion. Senna Michael only let their partner win after they were champions. They also used them to be champions by holding up traffic. It's a good point, a miss from me, but also what you need to understand a Suani is that that was the same day we filmed Carlos Sainz. Carlos Sainz camera crew that he was providing, they were his buddies, were like nine hours late. We were just standing waiting for this. Carlos arrived before them. They arrived, had to set up all their stuff. So we literally got like half an hour. David cools that before I had to race to get a flight back to the uk.

[Damian Hughes]

Do you think we'll be able to get David back on again then?

[Jake Humphrey]

At some point. I mean, he has his own podcast now, so he's probably moved beyond us, but you never know.

[Damian Hughes]

Okay.

[Jake Humphrey]

We've got history, so I'd like to think so.

[Damian Hughes]

We'll make a note of that.

[Jake Humphrey]

Yes. Damien, has your fear lifted?

[Damian Hughes]

I've enjoyed talking about it. It's great, isn't it? Yeah. Have you?

[Jake Humphrey]

Yeah. The more we talk about these things, the more we give other people the right to talk about these things. And when you do that, it helps. I really enjoyed the conversation.

[Damian Hughes]

Me too.

[Jake Humphrey]

Thank you very much for listening to this one. And if you want to check out the show notes, you can see all of the episodes from High Performance. And if there's someone in your life struggling with fear, please send this to them. I think it'll be really valuable for them. Please hit subscribe if this has been valuable for you. And don't forget. Up next, Nico Rosberg joins us on High Performance. Here's another quick clip from Nico. We'll leave you with this one. Let's go to the moment then that you cross the line in Abu Dhabi and then you do know you are the world champion. Then all those fears and all those doubts you can finally put to bed. Is that the reality of what happened in your head?

[Nico Rosberg]

Crossing the line? First of all, there was just relief. There was no joy, there was no happiness or anything. It was just, oh, my God, relief.

[Jake Humphrey]

Did you expect that or did it feel different to how you thought it would feel?

[Nico Rosberg]

Relief, and, and me saying, that's it, I'm done, I've done it.

[Jake Humphrey]

But how quickly did you decide?

[Nico Rosberg]

On the line. On the line. No, yeah, yeah, I'm done.

[Damian Hughes]

Yeah.

[Nico Rosberg]

This was, this was like when you're watching at home, where you're watching the television, it looks like the easiest thing in the world to drive that little race car, drive it in circles from time to time, win the race. But when you're in it and you're in that life, it's like super, super hard. It's very intense, this thing which all. I think everybody who is in a high performance job will know this feeling. But it gets exacerbated even more when you're in the public eye and there's hundreds of millions of people following you live. You're measured by tenths of a second. Everything is on a knife's edge because driving these race cars is so incredibly hard. Now some people listening might say, oh, yada, yada, yada, you're earning the top guys now. 50 million a year. Just shut up and drive. But you as a human, you just, you know, you're, you're in your little bubble and everybody has their own struggles then. And even though you're earning 50 million a year or the best are now, then, the struggles are still real in that moment. Even a Lewis Hamilton earning tons of money at Ferrari. If you ask him about last year, how horrible was it? From a scale from 1 to 10, he'll give you a 10.

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[Jake Humphrey]

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