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- [00:00]
Grainger Announcer
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- [01:31]
Jake Humphrey
adapts to the way that you actually
- [01:32]
Narrator/Advertiser (Dell PC)
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- [01:56]
Jake Humphrey
Hi there, welcome along to High Performance with myself, Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes. In today's episode, we're asking you what does healthy masculinity look like after so much conversation around Inside the Manosphere with Louis Theroux? As well as that, what do we think about the way that Liam Rossini is being treated at Chelsea? What could Norwich being voted the best place to live in the UK teach us about how we can live our lives? The big news regarding LeBron James and what are the big things we can learn from how Johan Van Gran has turned Barth around in the world of rugby union? Hey Damien Hey, Jake.
- [02:30]
Damian Hughes
How are you, mate?
- [02:31]
Jake Humphrey
I'm good, thank you very much. Let's start then talking about this manosphere documentary that Louis Theroux released a couple of weeks ago. It's got everybody talking, whether it's on social media or on news channels or in newspapers. What did you make of it? I know you've watched the documentary.
- [02:47]
Damian Hughes
Yeah, I found it interesting. I found it was like shining a light on a corner of an Internet that I wasn't that familiar with, if I'm honest, some of the characters that occupy it. But I've been more interested in the reaction of people afterwards rather than the program itself. I mean, those people have always been there. You know what I mean? Grifting, looking to make money, looking to sell an easy narrative of how success is only a fingertip away. If only you listen to their advice. It's not them that I've got an issue with. I think it's more around shining. Shining a light on them that has presented me with some conflicting thoughts. It reminded me, I don't know. Are you ever familiar of something called the Werther Effect, Jay?
- [03:30]
Jake Humphrey
No.
- [03:30]
Damian Hughes
Right. It's a concept, so it's named after a book by Goethe called the Trials of Young Werther. But what it says is, is that when people commit suicides or when celebrities die, and it gets an awful lot of attention in the media, what you see is you'll see a spike of similar suicides or deaths that are similar to how a celebrity died in the months after it. Because it attaches a little bit of glamour, it makes people think that this is possible. And my issue has been more around the fact of shining a light on people that have been there anyway. But it's people's reaction now. We're aware of them. So you're more likely to attract people to their. To their tribe, to go and express an interest in them rather than just ignoring them, you know what I mean? And leaving them on the fringes of society. That's what I've sort of taken from it. What about you? What did you think? Is it.
- [04:23]
Jake Humphrey
Is there not an argument? Well, I just wonder whether there's an argument that it's still important to call out people that think that their wives should be monogamous, but they can sleep with as many people as they like. I mean, and many other things that these. That these people believe. Like, is there not something positive about the fact that Louis went there and met them and spent time with them, and that actually, if we didn't know they exist, then we wouldn't know there's a problem. And if we didn't know there was a problem, then we would be surprised when we find that our sons, at the age of 12 or 13 or even younger maybe suddenly have views that we think are abhorrent. Like, isn't it important we know they're there? And then we can speak to the men in the world and say, listen, these are the re. These are the things they think and this is the reason why what they think is wrong.
- [05:10]
Damian Hughes
Yeah, well, yes and no. Like, my view is that those people are going to be there anyway. I don't think those people are going to be threatened or change their view because they get called out. I think shining a light on them attract makes them more attractive to people. It makes their notoriety more attractive. Like, I remember reading a really interesting stat years ago about the gun sales in America that when Barack Obama was, was the president, gun sales went through the roof in the States because of the perceived threat that he was going to come along and ban them. Yet when Donald Trump took over with a more liberal approach to gun laws, sales actually fell through, through the floor because there was no perceived threat anymore. So people were a bit more relaxed about it. And my view is, it's, I think shining a light on these people makes them more attractive to people that are more inclined to want to go and seek them out, that might not have heard of them before, but now think, oh, actually this sounds really good for now. You know, I saw Piers Morgan walking off an interview online with, with one of the guys that, that.
- [06:19]
Jake Humphrey
So that, yeah, that was HS Tiki talky when he was intubating that he was sleeping with Piers Morgan's wife. And Piers just said, I'm not doing this, didn't he? And he got up.
- [06:27]
Damian Hughes
Yeah, yeah, but, but, but he's not aiming his audience at Piers Morgan or people that watch him. He's aiming at young boys that would think that that is fantastic, that you're sticking it to the man. Or there's an establishment figure like Piers Morgan getting wound up by.
- [06:42]
Jake Humphrey
You know what, you've, you've definitely stumbled on something really important there, which is that what the sort of stocking trade of these people is to say that mainstream media or the Matrix is out to get them. And you need to realize that if you have any different opinion, then you're going to be a target and they're going to have a concerted effort to quieten these people down. The problem is this makes it easier for those influencers to claim that because they see Piers Morgan getting angry or they see Louis through going and filming with them and it's really easy to then go look at the efforts they go into to shut us up. And I, I do definitely think that there's an issue there. I think one of the other problems that I've had with the, like the, the kind of almost universal condemnation of these kind of toxic masculinity manosphere influences, right? Is exactly what I just said. This idea of toxic masculinity is kind of this sense that all of our young men are broken. It feels to me, it feels to me like we're saying that, you know, millions of young boys are watching these people. Now I'm sure they do have an audience, but I would also believe or like to believe or do believe that 80% of young men are far too smart, far too bright, far too well thought out, far too clever, far too well educated, far too in touch with their emotions, far too caring of other people to go anywhere near these people. I still absolutely believe with every fiber in my body that we're all getting upset and angry about a real minority in both in terms of the leaders and the followers.
- [08:20]
Damian Hughes
100 yeah. And it, and it's that confected outrage that actually attracts more people to them. You know, like even this phrase like toxic masculinity that you mentioned there. Jk, I think again, we need to sort of just stop and just take, just explore it. Like so if you think of it on a graph, right, or if you draw a line, a dissecting line on a piece of paper and you go, toxic and non toxic, toxic at the top, non toxic at the bottom. And then on the, on, on the axis you'd say, and then masculinity and femininity. So you go, so you think of toxic masculinity in the top right hand corner. What does that involve? It's about, think like speaking down to people that are weaker than you. You know, being homophobic, being sexist and all this kind of thing. What's the alternative? And then you go, well, I don't like labeling myself as non toxic. That doesn't feel particularly inspiring. So then you go, well, what's, what do you mean by non toxic masculine behavior? And you go, being all the things you just said, empathetic, being sensitive to others, being in touch with your emotions. And then you ask, so what's the difference between non toxic masculinity and non toxic femininity? Because it's all the same stuff. So you start to see how redundant some of these labels really are. Do you know what I mean? Like you should just use it because the alternative doesn't mean a lot. And I think when we give people these labels, it drives an identity that then ultimately drives a behavior. It can almost become a self fulfilling prophecy. And you know, do you remember Leo Ferdinand talking to us about labels? And the very first interview ever did where he was like, nobody's going to put me in the box. You know, just because I grew up in Peckham and I do ballet doesn't mean that people can say that I'm a certain person. I'm gonna write my own script. And I think there's a danger of this confected outrage from the manosphere debate then labeling young men as to as toxic masculinity. I think it all adds up to actually putting us in a worse place than if we just sort of said everybody is individual. You know, like you can have helpful or unhelpful behaviors, you can have people that have, you know, that behaving despicable ways in some things, but they can still be kind. They've still got the capacity to be decent people. I think seeing people as individuals rather than these labels is something that I feel really passionate about.
- [10:50]
Jake Humphrey
Well, it's interesting you say that, right, because after watching the documentary and thinking a bit about this, I stumbled across a website called the center for Male Psychology. It's an American. It's an American website and an American group. And I was reading an article by a guy called John Barry and he actually answered some questions on this website to the, to the Independent. He was approached by the Independent and he answered some questions for them. And this is based on his research. Right. One of their questions was, and this ties in so nicely with what you're saying, what does your research show about the impact of viewing masculinity negatively on boys? And his answer was that the research carried out by the center for male Psychology found 85% of men and women agree that the term toxic masculinity is insulting. And this is crucial, unlikely to improve men's behavior and possibly damaging to boys if they read or hear about the term. So he researched with 4,000 men and his research found that thinking masculinity causes you to engage in bad behavior. For example, being violent towards women was correlated with worse mental well being. But, and this was apparently quoted in, in the Independent article, thinking masculinity causes you to engage in good behavior was correlated with good mental well being. So a key question then is where do these beliefs come from. And really what he's saying that his guess is that negative beliefs about masculinity are being promoted daily in the media, that daily in academia, by the government, by nos. And he believes that these messages impact men negatively. He also said that no matter what people claim they mean by the term, it's much too easy for it to sound negative, especially in a culture where negativity about men and masculinity is far too common. I think what was. What was interesting, they asked him, does the phrase toxic masculinity imply that masculinity is bad by default? And he said that some people who use it say they don't mean that masculinity is inevitably or inherently toxic, just as some expressions of it are toxic. However, as they point out in the British Psychological Society textbook called Perspectives in Male Psychology, he said it's difficult to use a compound term like toxic masculinity without implying that the toxicity is part of masculinity.
- [13:14]
Damian Hughes
Yeah, yeah, right.
- [13:16]
Jake Humphrey
And. And I think this is. So when I think about this and. And I think about your toxic masculinity, I actually don't think so much about the people that were on Louis Theroux documentary. I actually think about, like, George, your son, or Seb, my boy.
- [13:30]
Damian Hughes
Yeah.
- [13:30]
Jake Humphrey
And I think that these conversations around masculinity, I think when they come up, I find myself, like you really interested in the labels and thinking about those boys and those young men, because I think, like, what are young men hearing? What are they being shown? Who is helping to shape their view of themselves? What happens when nobody's there? And there's this great phrase, Damien, you've probably heard it. It said, a child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth. So I think one of the questions here is with so much conversation around Louis documentary Inside the Manosphere, it's all been about criticizing young men. But I keep on thinking that. I think so much of this actually starts long before someone ends up in that dark corner of the Internet. Like, it's so easy to criticize the influencers, and it's so easy to criticize the young people who are in those dark corners of the Internet. But let's. But we should be having a conversation instead of just criticizing them. We should be asking what's missing? Who are the role models? Who's. Where's the guard coming from? What are the honest conversations young men are having? What are the examples of strength rooted in kindness that are in their world? Where. Who's talking to them about responsibility or self control. So like, I know you want George, like my boy Sebastian, to be kind, to be grounded, to be responsible, but also to be strong but gentle. To be protective but not be aggressive. To be grounded, not to be performative. Do you know what I mean? Parenting. Go on.
- [14:55]
Damian Hughes
A mate of mine, Brian in. In Dublin sent me a message recently. He does a lot of work in his. Like his. His GAA club where they're talking about this sense of belonging to. For young men. And he sent me this brilliant poem that just as you say in it there reminded me. This is by a guy called Dara Fleming and the title of it is if I ever have boys, they'll be dangerous Men. Let me just read it to you. Because if I ever have boys they'll be dangerous men they'll smile at dogs and children and be a tonic to friends they'll send flowers to their mothers just because and they'll be a shoulder for many when the world is too much My boys will know that vulnerability is strength they won't bottle anger they'll learn how to express they won't let pride be the reason they hide wearing masks while they're hurting inside no, my boys will be dangerous men they won't stay silent even when it's uncomfortable for them but they'll use their voices to amplify the unheard they'll know that love isn't something to perform they'll see beauty in all its forms My boys won't grow learning to emotionally hide they'll reshape masculinity into something they like make it softer to touch they'll know that who they are is more than enough they'll know that being a man doesn't mean carrying the burden alone they'll learn that an emotional man is a man fully grown they won't settle everything with violent swings they'll live in truth even when that truth stings. So yeah, if I ever have boys they'll be dangerous men but the danger they'll be won't be the one society meant. Isn't that brilliant?
- [16:34]
Jake Humphrey
Yeah, I love that. And you know when at the end when he says they won't be the one that society meant, like I think that we're talking about the statistical minority as if they're the majority, aren't we? Like there is always going to be a hardcore of damaged young men and damaged boys, right? That for one reason or another, you know, bad behavior is something that they lean towards. But I think if we keep on saying to our sons hey, don't be that guy. Or, you know, just, just because it's not you doesn't mean that you're not part of the problem. I think there is a risk of making the hardcore worse and there is a risk of damaging and harming other boys as well. And I think, I actually think as a culture we fail terribly at celebrating the positive contributions of men. Right?
- [17:20]
Damian Hughes
Bingo. Yeah. And that's why I think like, the Louis program is great, because it, because it's interesting and he's a brilliant interviewer. Like, do you remember that time we met him when we were backstage with Stormzy? There's two name drops if ever you've heard that. But I still talk about him because he gave me the most elegant dismissal Louis ever. But it was lovely. It was so elegant that I was chatting with him for about 20 minutes and then he said to me, he said, just remind me of your name again. And I told him so. It's Damien. Damien, I really enjoyed chatting with you, but do you mind if I have five minutes just to think about my interview I'm going to do with Stormzy? And it was so lovely that it was a really elegant way of saying, can you just leave me alone?
- [18:02]
Jake Humphrey
You're boring.
- [18:04]
Damian Hughes
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But, but he is brilliant. So I love his interviews, I love his style. I like the way that he just, he asks almost like naive questions that. And then leaves that silence for others to fill. So this isn't a slight on Louis or his programs, but your point is, right, that I think he's shining a light on the extremes of our society and then creates this moral outrage and panic. Let's shine a light on the far more. The majority of young men that are out there doing the best they can in the best way that they can. You know what I mean? But, but they're not headline figures. That's not like that doesn't make an interesting documentary, does it?
- [18:48]
Jake Humphrey
There was a really good clip that I saw on social media of the day that I want to, I want to tell you what it says. And it was basically a guy and he was talking about Andrew Tate and he was basically saying, he was, he was addressing it, two young men, he was saying, listen, young boys, don't follow Andrew Tate. And I'll tell you what a real man is. And it's, and it's on Instagram and it's sort of clips of him like chopping up wood and walking in the snow and doing all those things that you'd imagine a so called real man would do. And this is what he said. He said, don't listen to Andrew Tate or other aggressive alpha type men. He says they don't know masculinity. Masculinity, true masculinity, is sacred. It's protective, it's not aggressive. As I've just said, it's disciplined. It's not reactive, it's grounded, it's not performative. While dominance is a masculine trait, a man in his sacred masculine does not aggressively dominate others. He is assertive, but controlled. He is strong, but he's gentle. He doesn't measure success in power and control over others, only over himself. A powerful man holds himself accountable, unlike the Andrew Tate's of this world. He values restraint over lust, has no need to show off, and his actions should mirror a deep respect for all people. I think that's a really good, I think that's a really good summation actually, of what we think masculinity and, or what some people think masculinity should look like and actually what it, what it really should look like.
- [20:26]
Damian Hughes
Yeah, I like it. Yeah. And again and again, I think, you know, how often have we seen, like some of our guests on the podcast, the, you know, that you assume are going to be the alphas that are going to walk into a room and attempt to dominate it and try and make themselves feel better at all those expense, and how frequently have we been surprised by that? Even when they have a public perception of it. Like the one that I often think about in that regard is before we interviewed Alistair Campbell. Do you. And I said to you then that most of the time I was a bit wary of it because I'd seen him shouting at people in political debates and sort of like hectoring people that didn't agree with him. And yet when he turned up, he was kind, he was decent, he was talking about his kids, he was talking about his own mental health challenges. And it was a reminder that sometimes contacts was really key. I remember you saying to me, you've never met him, so why don't you give him a chance? And I think when I did that, it was a really positive surprise. And I think when we, like when we treat people from where they are, not where we think they should be, we often allow ourselves that option to be surprised.
- [21:39]
Jake Humphrey
Yeah, yeah, it's a really good point, actually. I think on reflection, the one part of the Inside the Manosphere documentary that I was, I was most pleased that Louis Theroux managed to bring to the surface is the fact that these male so called influencers Are just grifters, you know, they're. They're actually just trying to make money out of people. Like this idea of trying to sell courses or get you to sign up to some sort of investment scheme or whatever. Like they're not real leaders, do you know what I mean? They're not actually. They don't actually care what the young men of the world think or whether they can take them in a certain direction. They're kind of like they're just uneducated grifters and they just literally want to sell them something to make some money. And if they were able to have impact and make money believing something else, I have no doubt they believe something else, you know.
- [22:25]
Darina (Quo Co-founder)
Yeah.
- [22:25]
Jake Humphrey
It's the easiest thing for them to do, to try and get a few quid out of people. And that's one of the other. That is one of the big issues, I think as well.
- [22:33]
Damian Hughes
Yeah. So with that in mind, then, I think when we talk about signs like shining a light on. On. On this corner of the Internet, I think we almost hit hypocrites in a way, because that's what we've done. But I think I'd like to make the point of don't have this confected outrage for it. Instead focus on. On the far more people that are doing really good things and trying to make a difference because. Because they're the ones that. That. That deserve our attention. You know where. You know where it's. Where your attention goes, the energy flows. And I think I'd rather point out the people that are doing good things rather than these people looking to capitalize on the weakness of others.
- [23:11]
Jake Humphrey
I think that's a really good point. That is a really good point. And actually another area that it didn't tell the story well enough on was the impact on the women in the lives of those men. You know, they kind of just made fleeting appearances, didn't they, on the show? And I think it would have been much, much better actually to really show the impact on those women, which I think is equally important. All right, interesting. We're going to continue the conversation after this.
- [23:38]
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- [24:16]
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- [24:48]
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- [25:22]
Damian Hughes
Well, Jake, I've got to offer you congratulations as well.
- [25:26]
Jake Humphrey
Thank you very much.
- [25:27]
Damian Hughes
What is officially the number one place in the country according to the Sunday Times.
- [25:32]
Jake Humphrey
There you go. I've been telling you and everyone else that will listen for years that Norwich is the best place in the country. Nobody believes me. I hope that now they do.
- [25:42]
Damian Hughes
Yeah, I was reading all about it. I was reading about your kids school. I was reading about how it's seen as an ideal place to bring up a young family. Like you literally were ahead of the curve, weren't you, 15 years ago.
- [25:54]
Jake Humphrey
There you go. I told you. I mean, I tell you why Norwich is amazing, right, first of all. Well, for years we've had, we've had a history of accepting immigrants, right? So the, the so called weavers who arrived here in the very early days of Norwich in like the 1500s, they were welcomed with open arms and ever since then Norwich has had this like really nice like bohemian feel about it. You can be yourself in Norwich. It's welcoming, it's open, it's really creative. But it's also like I honestly feel like it's dynamic as well and people I know laugh about this and they just like send me Alan Partridge memes every time I talk about Norwich. But you, you think about high performance. Yeah, High performance was born in Norwich. Like you know, the idea the very. The original seed for this show came from Norwich. And apart from you and Will, both based in Manchester, you know, most of the people that were instrumental in the early days of this show were from Norwich. So what I'll tell you what I'd like to explain to people, right, is that they think that if you don't live in one of the, like, main cities in the uk, like, you know, Birmingham or Manchester or London or Liverpool or something, that you're like, you're somehow kind of like accepting second best. But I don't believe that's true. Like, Chloe, who runs the High Performance foundation, lived in my village. Josh, who's the CEO of High Performance, lived in my village. Hannah, who was the COO of High Performance, used to go to school with my wife in Norwich, like 20 years ago. Eve, who was basically, I think, our first ever employee, she's moved on, but she was. She went to the University of East Anglia here in Norwich. You know, like, you don't have to be in one of these big cities to be ambitious. And I really want people to understand that One of the world's, you know, biggest podcasts of the last few years has been created in Norwich. There is a really vibrant tech scene actually going on in Norwich. And I think one of my big lessons that I've learned, actually, which might be valuable for a few people listening to this, is that I think sometimes we're obsessed with, like, how to hire great people. And I see people talk about it an awful lot and I think the odds of you having a job available, putting the job advert out for that job, and the perfect person seeing it being available to apply for it, applying for it, impressing you at the interview and getting the job, like, I honestly think it's like a one. It's like a one in a million star shot. Right, Right. I think it's way better to just hoover people up as you go through life. And it doesn't mean that you can instantly work with someone or you can instantly do something great together, but it just means that you kind of. You surround yourself. And I know you've seen a lot of research about this, you kind of surround yourself with great people and you just keep on talking to them until something appears that means that you might be able to do something together. And that's exactly what I've really done with all the people that have started working on High Performance. I remember we spoke to Steve Parish, didn't we, the boss of Crystal palace about this.
- [28:46]
Damian Hughes
Yeah, yeah.
- [28:47]
Jake Humphrey
He was saying to us I hoover people up, I don't employ people. And when he said that, I suddenly was like, yes, that's, that is exactly what I've done the last few years. So I'm really proud to live in not just the number one city in the country, but the number one place in the country where you can, if you're ambitious, dedicated, creative and hard working, you can build something like high performance. You know, you don't have to go to London to do these things.
- [29:10]
Damian Hughes
No, I like that. Well, I was looking at it from a slightly wider lens, Jake, where I was looking at what is the impact on your life chances when we're going to talk about this and you're touching on one of what's referred to as the three Ps. So the first biggest influence is your parents. When you leave that maternity ward, where you go and who takes you are the two biggest things. Your parents and your postcode have the biggest impact on your life chances. Like I was reading some stats that if your parents went to university, there's a 64% chance you will. If your parents didn't, your likelihood of going decreases to about 18%. If your parents own their own home, there's a 71% chance you will. If they didn't, it drops to 46%. In terms of postcode, you know, in the poorest postcodes in the country, life expectancy for men is 72, it's 83. In the richest postcodes, there's an eight year difference for women. So you start to see the impact of that. But the area that I think that you've just described there is the, the third P, which is around your peer group. The peer group, the people that you surround yourself with. And there's a certain element that we can curate that we might not have as much influence over the first two, but that curating the peer group, of surrounding yourself, gathering, putting yourself in positions where you can meet great people, people that aspire to great things, people that are on a pathway that you want to go down. All of this stuff gives us that chance to do it and those people are anywhere where we look. You know, remember Daniel Priestley, the entrepreneur telling us, didn't he, he was like, move. If people are not like that in your area, move, go and hang around with people, find out where they are hanging out and go and hang around with them. The, the context of the people you're with is huge. And like you said in somewhere like Norwich, that might not appear on the radar of people that think that's where you need to be. To be at the cutting edge of things. The reality is those people are wherever you go and seek and find them.
- [31:15]
Jake Humphrey
Yeah, I love that, mate. Well, I'm so pleased to live in Norwich. If anybody wants to move to Norwich, do it quick for the house prices rocket. Right, Damien, I want to talk about Liam Ross Senior. I mean, look, I know that there's been some results that haven't been great, particularly in the last week. I just think the intense I was thinking about, like, you know, at the moment, everything he does and everything he says is scrutinized so deeply. And it's, you know, like, the stuff about him making notes recently. And I just think, like, how hard is it for him right now to be himself, to find the freedom to make the decisions that are the right decisions to. To help Chelsea get better results? Because I just think that. I just think the criticism is. Is totally over the top. Is.
- [32:01]
Damian Hughes
I just think it's disgraceful. I think it's disgraceful. I was talking back in January to Joby Mackinaw, who played with. With Liam and knows him really well, and he was telling me about how dedicated this guy has been to his craft of coaching. Do you know what I mean? Like, this is a guy that has been preparing for this role for the last 10, 15 years. He said he's smart, he's intelligent, he's pushed himself out his comfort zone, and Joby couldn't have been more effusive about him. So I was intrigued when he first came in, and it seems that there's been. I mean, some of the stuff I've. I've read about him, to me, it, like, I find it disgraceful that you've got a young British coach.
- [32:42]
Jake Humphrey
You're talking about former players that have never been brave enough to be a manager, having a pop about the fact that he was making notes with a few minutes left, which is still a valuable thing to do, by the way. Just, you're like, why get angry about that?
- [32:55]
Damian Hughes
Yeah, I don't get it. Like, I saw some. I saw some journalists make some crack that he was like, oh, he was passing him a note to say, if you listen to the latest episode of High Performance. And like, I read it and I thought, it's not even funny. You know what I mean? Like, it's not even a funny. A funny joke that you're trying to say he was putting something else on this journalist about, you know, ask him who's on LinkedIn or something like that. And. And it was just like, it's not even original.
- [33:22]
Jake Humphrey
It's so lazy and not even funny, is it? And it's. I've often felt this, right? There are certain people that get criticism and then they get more criticism because they're safe to criticize, because the people that do it are cowards. Right? So no one will criticize someone who other people aren't criticizing because they're such cowards they wouldn't dare do it because they don't want to. They don't want to get it wrong and be like, oh, no, I criticized that person and then I got a load of heat. So they wait for. They wait for someone to look like everyone else is having a go at them and they go, brilliant. There's. I mean, it's bullying. There's a. There's a vulnerable person. There's someone that. Everyone is having a pop out so I can safely add to the noise and I'm never going to be in the foreign line. Honestly, mate, 99.9% of these people criticizing him would never dare to risk their reputation by taking on a senior position in football. Well, 99.9 of them haven't even got the qualifications. Yeah. They're just sitting at home on their computers having a pop at him. And it's like, what's the. How does it go? It's not the critic who counts or the man who points out how the stronger man stumbles.
- [34:23]
Damian Hughes
The.
- [34:24]
Jake Humphrey
The credit belongs to the man who's in the arena. And Liam Rossinia is in the arena. And I find it really weird, like, like you, I find the criticism strange.
- [34:33]
Damian Hughes
He's.
- [34:34]
Jake Humphrey
He was a decent player. He's done his time, he's prepped for it. He clearly cares. He's. He's trying his best to just be himself in a world where it's really hard to be yourself. And I honestly think there's just a narrative against him and it's so. It's just lazy. I hate it.
- [34:51]
Damian Hughes
Oh, yeah, well, I'm the same. And then it, you know, these same journalists will then say, why don't we get more British coaches that test themselves abroad and, you know, or why don't we get more business coaches that. That are willing to back themselves in different environments and you've got a guy that's done precisely that and then they're almost waiting for him to fail. There's almost like a glee that. About the struggles. And I just don't get what the point is. I don't get what you're trying to do as a journalist other than, you know, Get a few clicks and get a few cheap laughs at the expense of a guy that's genuinely backing himself to go out there.
- [35:32]
Jake Humphrey
I've also seen no one actually attempt to learn from this. I've not seen anyone go, Liam, can I just ask, like, why were you making notes at the end of the game?
- [35:40]
Damian Hughes
Yeah.
- [35:41]
Jake Humphrey
And why do you still believe it's effective? Like, why has no one asked that question? Oh, because it's much easier to have a pop and to have a couple of people in the comments praise you for having a go at someone. Oh, well done, you. But bullying is known as time.
- [35:54]
Damian Hughes
Well, I mean, even that stuff, you know, about the huddle where they would say, and now it's about. He said something about respecting the ball and yeah, I think I, I think he was put into a position of having to defend something that the players have decided on. There's a brilliant guy called Willie Isa that, that joined Chelsea from, From. From Wigan warriors, the rugby league club. And I believe that Will is behind some of this stuff of getting the players that you'll notice that when they walk in at halftime, they all gather together and walk in together as a team. When they walk out, they come out together. So the huddle is just another way of expressing this idea of solidarity and togetherness. So maybe it can look a bit clumsy, maybe there's a performative aspect to it, but I think the fact that Liam's then expected to go in and defend it and then people just use those words, you know, rather than exploring, go. Well, do you believe it offers you any benefits? Let's explore. Why are you doing this? Who, like, who are the players that came up, you know, that respect the
- [36:57]
Jake Humphrey
ball thing, you know, he, he actually said before they said my players made the decision too. He didn't say, well, I think we should. Like, he was literally saying what you just said, that this was what the players. This is the players decision. They wanted to do this, you know.
- [37:11]
Damian Hughes
Yeah, that's what I mean. I find it all like, nobody's exploring the context of, well, let's explore why are they doing this? Or let's explore, like you say about those notes. Like, I read a journalist recently that was sort of scathing about our interview that we did with Eddie Howe. And they took a quote that Eddie had given us where he said, vision drives decision. Right? Now, what they didn't offer was. And they said it was the worst kind of LinkedIn speech, manager. What they didn't explain was anyhow, was explaining that he'd heard our interview with Chris Foss, the FBI hostage negotiator. And that term was something that he'd spoken about of knowing what your outcome is that decides how you're going to behave in the small steps to get there. But that wasn't explained or it wasn't. Isn't that interesting that Eddie Howe is curious enough to listen to people from outside of the football world to help him as a leader? It was taking that one small sentence and trying to make out as if Eddie how was some kind of buffoon or some management consultant. And again, I think, who's that benefiting who? Because you're not offering the context as a journalist to the guy that you're profiling Eddie Howe. You're just trying to make out that he looks silly. So if Eddie Howe sees it, is he going to trust talking to that journalist next time and explaining his decision? So the ultimate losers in it are the fans. You know, like you've often said, tell everybody everything so people don't gossip. But having seen the treatment of Liam and Eddie Howe in that other article, you think, why should they bother to tell people? Because it'll be taken out of context and it'll be a stick to beat them with at a later stage anyway.
- [38:52]
Jake Humphrey
Yeah, mate, you're totally right. It's all about. It's all about the narrative that is around someone. I mean, I saw Paul Merson wrote an article saying Liam Rossini should be less honest. And I just thought, what world are
- [39:04]
Narrator/Advertiser (Dell PC)
we in if that's.
- [39:05]
Jake Humphrey
If that's what we're thinking is the right way to go about living your life? I mean, like, Jurgen Klopp, right, did amazing things in the Premier League. I remember in 2021, I was. When I was covering the football and Alison Becker made a couple of mistakes. Do you remember what Jurgen Klopp said?
- [39:21]
Damian Hughes
No. No. God.
- [39:22]
Jake Humphrey
He said he thought it was because Alison Becker had cold feet. Honestly, now, it probably. It may well have been, I don't know. I'm definitely not criticizing Jurgen Klopp here. What I am saying is if Liam Racinia now came out and said, oh, my goalkeeper made a mistake because he
- [39:37]
Damian Hughes
had cold feet, right? Yeah, yeah.
- [39:40]
Narrator/Advertiser (Dell PC)
Boom.
- [39:40]
Jake Humphrey
Oh, this is what he said is, you know, like, Jurgen would talk about the pitch being too dry, or he once complained Iax that the pitch was a little bit muddy, which is why that they, they, they won the game. But he was. I remember moaning about the pitch. Then it's like if, if one person says one thing, everyone will kill them for it. And then if it's the different person that says something similar then, then it's not a problem because that person doesn't get criticized.
- [40:07]
Damian Hughes
Well, again, it goes into what we're talking about with the manosphere debate before, before in this chat about like you label people and one, it becomes self fulfilling. Do you know what I mean? Oh, here he is coming out with his LinkedIn speak. Again, you simplify it so there's no nuance or subtlety in what you're doing. And then you just create this in and out group psychology of. Then you go, he's not one of us, so therefore he's different, so therefore we can get rid of him. And then you wonder, like, no wonder British coaches have a hard time then getting trusted by the decision makers at their club. Because why would you, you know, like, why would you go after another young British culture? I mean, just seeing the flat that, that Liam's receiving.
- [40:52]
Jake Humphrey
Mad. Right, before we wrap up, Damien, I want to talk about another coach, a man who I know that you know and you've been very impressed by. Johan Van Gran. For people that don't follow Premiership rugby, for people that don't know much about rugby union, I'd love you just to spend a couple of minutes explaining to us what, what he found when he joined Bath and what he's done since.
- [41:14]
Damian Hughes
Oh, mate. He's one of my favorite interviewees that I've had the privilege to sit down with only because he came onto high performance and there was nothing that he wasn't prepared to talk about. You know, he was literally an open book talking about. When he first came into Baft, this was a club that hadn't won the title for something like 29 years. Within his first year, he's taken them to the title. This season they seem to have gone up another level again. And I think so much of it is down to him as the catalyst. There's an owner I saw, James Dyson, has recently chosen to invest in the club, but I think so much of it is Johan as a catalyst for it. He was a guy that was telling us about how that he insists his players take days off. He's not one of these coaches that comes in and flocks them and works them hard. He wants them to go home. He wants them to have time with their families and their friends. He wants them to remember that when, when your career is finished, you won't remember the trophies, but you'll remember the friendships. You'll remember the moments, the bonds that you, that you developed in the dressing room and he's just a bloke that lives that, you know, like I've stayed in touch with him since, since I spoke to him and you know, he asks after the family. Like it's very genuine. Like he'll text me and ask how my family is. He'll inquire what we're doing on the podcast as much as. Then he'll tell me a little bit about his own kids and his own background. He's just a truly decent man as well as being a great coach that seems to be doing phenomenal things. So I really like watching it from a distance to see, to see his success.
- [42:59]
Jake Humphrey
And what from what you know about what's gone on there? What do you know about how he's managed to create such a turnaround at Bath? Because this is like they were a broken club when he arrived. They'd just beaten 64 kneeling by Gloucester, hadn't they?
- [43:13]
Damian Hughes
That's right, yeah.
- [43:14]
Babbel Advertiser
Yeah.
- [43:14]
Jake Humphrey
But interestingly, he took full control. It was a full leadership structure and I, I'd love a bit of insight into what you believe has, has been done. I mean, interestingly, I know that one of the reasons why he's been successful is constant note taking.
- [43:28]
Damian Hughes
That's right, yeah, yeah.
- [43:29]
Jake Humphrey
That's only a problem though if you're Liam Racinha.
- [43:32]
Damian Hughes
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you can look at writing his notes. He got. Look at this buffoon. Five minutes left.
- [43:39]
Jake Humphrey
So what was Liam Rossini supposed to do at that point? Like when you're six or seven nil down, what you just. Well, we've lost it. I'm not going to bother with anything like the geezer's trying. But anyway, carry on.
- [43:47]
Damian Hughes
Sorry, but, but also as well, they speaking to a 20 year old Argentinian, so maybe he doesn't speak Spanish so well, maybe he's trying to communicate something. You know, like Arsene Wenger used to say that the, the, the next match begins five minutes after the whistle's been blown on, on your previous one. So maybe he's thinking about how do I, how do I give him instructions that he's gonna follow up against Everton at the weekend? But you're right, so the note taking, Johan was telling us that he's been like a prodigious note taker since he was about 13 and it was advice from his dad of like thinking ink. So the idea is that rather than come up with an emotional reaction, if you write down your thoughts, it just gives you that buffer zone between your emotion and what you're actually going to communicate. So that's a big part of what he's done with his players, that he tells them everything and he captures their responses to it as well in his notebook so that he hears what you've said as well, so you become accountable. If you said, I'll be there at 8 o' clock in the morning, he's got it in his notebook. So he knows that that's what you said. He'll double check with you. So you've agreed you'll be here at 8:00 clock tomorrow morning. And then players know where they stand at all times. That when I've been in dressing rooms, I think there's two things that people demand from the leader of it, clarity and consistency. So they want the idea of tell me, just tell me where I am, good or bad, and then be consistent in the way that you apply it. And I think if you could boil down Johan's approach, it's obviously a lot more complex than this, but I think it's the clarity of his messaging and then the consistency in the way that he's applied it. He's already got talented people in that dressing room, but they seem to have thrived within the environment he's shaped for them.
- [45:33]
Jake Humphrey
Brilliant. Before we wrap up, can I call someone out for being my high performer of the week?
- [45:39]
Damian Hughes
Go on. Who?
- [45:41]
Jake Humphrey
LeBron James, who just broke the all time NBA record, 1 1,612 games of pro basketball in the NBA. We interviewed Mike Mancius on the pod actually a little, a little while ago about the dedication that LeBron goes to. And I think when we, when you talk about over 1600 games, you talk about the games. What you don't talk about is that 1600 times that you can't go to your kids parents evening, you can't go out for a beer with your mates, you know, you're not going to sleep very well the night after a game. You know, you can't have a big night the night before a game. You know that maybe there's a, a family event that you can't be at. You know that there's certain food that you can't eat or you need to eat. I mean this is long term, serious, deep dedication. Should we have a quick clip from Mike Mancius?
- [46:31]
Damian Hughes
Yeah, go on.
- [46:32]
Jake Humphrey
This is Mike Mancius talking about when LeBron decided that he wanted to be the greatest. So do you remember the day that you had the conversation about what LeBron wants to be and the answer was the greatest of all time?
- [46:42]
Mike Mancius
The greatest?
- [46:43]
Damian Hughes
Yes.
- [46:44]
Jake Humphrey
When did he first say that to you?
- [46:46]
Mike Mancius
It was really early on in his career. It was probably he was 19 or 20 years old when we had that conversation. And I said, okay, well, let's. And then again, I was only 24, 25 at the time as well. You know, I'm only eight years. I'm eight years older. Older than he is. And so. But it was my second year in the NBA, so I was just learning as well. And so I said, okay, let's do the research. You know, what others have done, what has failed for others. And so let's just learn from other people's mistakes, and let's build. Let's build our own journey.
- [47:17]
Jake Humphrey
Yeah, it's great, isn't it? The whole episode's brilliant. And you can find it. Mike Mancius, LeBron's coach well, I mean,
- [47:24]
Damian Hughes
I think we can tie it back to where we started this conversation. I'm intrigued by him. I read a book called LeBron Inc. A few years ago. I think it's by a guy called Brian Windhorst. And the thing that stood out to me without knowing a lot about him, was that he came from quite difficult circumstances. He never knew his father. I think his mother was only 14 or 15 when she had him. And like, the. The. Like the village in Akron where we grew up surrounded him with love and care and attention. You know, he had strong male figures that taught him how to behave, how to conduct himself. And then when he was about 16, this fits with Mike's story. He developed a group that he refers to as the Four Horsemen. These are friends that he got around him, that he knew had his back, that trusted him, and had his best interests at heart. So these are guys have gone on to stellar careers themselves, like Rich Paul, who's an agent, and Maverick Carter, like one of his advisors. But he had four mates that he literally recruited them and then got them to go off and learn their own craft. But he stayed loyal to them, and they've helped to guide him throughout his career. He's a great example of what we were talking about earlier, that it's easy to focus on the ones at the fringes of society that are urging us to sort of put one over other people. People like LeBron James have gone and curated their own peer group, regardless of their. The parents or the postcode they've grown up in that have helped them go on and achieve such incredible success.
- [48:59]
Jake Humphrey
I think it's really interesting. And you can check out the full episode of Mike Mancius as part of the back catalog of high performance. Damien, lovely to chat as always, thank you so much mate.
- [49:09]
Damian Hughes
I've enjoyed it, mate. I like this sort of just, just chance to reflect a little bit into it on, on what we're seeing so frequently.
- [49:17]
Jake Humphrey
Absolutely. And have you got plans to move to Norwich?
- [49:21]
Damian Hughes
Not quite but I do like visit.
- [49:24]
Jake Humphrey
Well, it is the best place to live in the uk. Listen, if you enjoy Damien and I just sort of sitting and talking about the things that have been going on over the last few days, we'd love you to keep in touch with us. We'd love you to let us know what you would like us to cover. What are the big news stories? What are the talking points? What are the things happening that you think you need to hear? And also if you agree or disagree with the stuff that we talk about here because they are at times our opinions, we'd love to hear from you as well. Thank you very much for checking out today's episode and we'll see you very soon for more from high performance. Bye bye.
- [50:04]
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