Why England's Golden Generation Never Won a Trophy: Rio Ferdinand, Joe Cole & Peter Crouch

Summary

Podcast Summary: Why England's Golden Generation Never Won a Trophy

Podcast: The High Performance Podcast
Hosts: Jake Humphrey, Damian Hughes
Guests: Rio Ferdinand, Joe Cole, Peter Crouch
Date: June 5, 2026

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Overview

This episode features an open and revealing conversation between former England footballers Rio Ferdinand, Joe Cole, and Peter Crouch—key members of the Golden Generation. Together, with hosts Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes, they dissect the reasons why one of England's most talented squads failed to win a major tournament. The discussion also delivers lessons on performance, teamwork, leadership, and the influence of culture and tactics within elite sport.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Pride and Pressure of Playing for England

• Initial Emotions:

  • All three guests describe immense pride in representing their country, recalling moments when childhood dreams became reality.
    • Peter Crouch (00:02): "The 1990 World cup was pivotal for me. Watching Gazza ... I want to be that."
    • Rio Ferdinand (01:38): "I just thought, I am one of the best players in the country."
    • Joe Cole (02:32): Shares a moving story about being told he’d wear the legendary England number 9 shirt in the 2010 World Cup, feeling goosebumps after realizing its significance.

• Shift to Expectation:

  • Joy quickly replaced by pressure to perform: “It’s business immediately you get there” (Rio Ferdinand, 05:19).

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2. Club Rivalries and Squad Division

• Premier League "Warfare":

  • Joe Cole (12:16): Points to intense Premier League rivalries, particularly between core English club squads (Man United, Liverpool, Chelsea), making team unity difficult.
    • "That Premier League at that time was war."
  • Rio Ferdinand (13:06): Reinforces how club animosities translated into England camps, further fractured by regional and personal rivalries.

• Comparison to Today:

  • Players agree modern England squads seem closer, aided by social media and less aggressive club rivalries (21:38).

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3. Tactical Shortcomings

• Behind the European Curve:

  • Peter Crouch (13:45): Attributes lack of success to tactical limitations.
    • "I just think tactically we would fallen behind... playing 4-4-2 rigid, rigid stuff that I was doing at 14."
  • The Golden Generation “relied on individual brilliance” (Rio Ferdinand, 16:09) rather than cohesive tactical systems.

• Coaching Culture:

  • Little space for player feedback or tactical discussion with management, especially under Capello (16:33, 18:19, 22:48).

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4. Media Pressure and Public Scrutiny

• Atmosphere of Anxiety:

  • Rio Ferdinand (11:01): Recalls the fear that mistakes would be publicized and ridiculed by the press.
    • "It just felt like it was them against us."
  • Joe Cole (44:04): Shares personal pain: “I remember coming on at Old Trafford and getting booed by my own fans ... my mum and dad and sister are in the crowd ... the whole stadium is booing me.”

• Leadership Failure:

  • Lack of a strong internal culture for handling pressure (“There was no real leadership from the top,” Ferdinand, 28:49).

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5. The "Golden Generation" Label and Impact

• Weight of Expectation:

  • The label was externally imposed, but created inflated expectations, especially on key players (Ferdinand, 41:10).
    • “It wasn’t our fault, it just wasn’t that it was labeled.”
  • Attacking talents bore the brunt; defenders could “react,” attackers had to “produce something.”

• Management Inflexibility:

  • Coaches unwilling to drop “big names” for tactical fit (46:37).
    • “I don’t think the managers were strong enough at the time to go, right, Becks, you gotta sit on the bench … It just was almost like, I can’t do that.” (Rio Ferdinand, 46:37)

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6. Cultural and Systemic Weaknesses

• No Preparation for Adversity:

  • Peter Crouch (31:37): Details lack of planning for setbacks, tactics, or media storms: “Nothing, not that I can remember. It was … you more or less knew what … we were going to do.”
  • Teams that win, like Spain, deliberately foster togetherness and adapt tactically (26:20).

• Attempted Solutions Not Implemented:

  • Newer methods like Gareth Southgate’s personal story-sharing hadn’t existed during their time (20:10).

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7. The Joy and Burden of Playing for England

• The disparity between expectation and reality:
  • Rio Ferdinand (34:44): "I was unbelievably proud ... but I never enjoyed the games."
  • Joe Cole (34:27): "Every time I put on [an] England shirt, I felt I was going to score ... I felt invincible."
  • Peter Crouch (36:33): Felt outside the main core, less pressure but sensed it on others.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Media Paranoia:

  • "That's one of the first things on your mind as an England player, then. It's not conducive to a good working environment, to be the best, to be elite, to be a winning team." – Rio Ferdinand (11:01)

• On Tactics:

  • “We’d never had control of the games, but I know we’d have better players, technically, physically … But tactically, I just think it was a case where we was going the wrong way down a road.” – Peter Crouch (13:45)

• Lack of Managerial Backbone:

  • “I don’t think the managers were strong enough at the time to go, right, Becks, you’ve got to sit on the bench. ... It just was almost like, I can’t do that.” – Rio Ferdinand (46:37)

• Personal Impact of Criticism:

  • "For me, personally, obviously I don't show any weakness ... but I'm 24, right, I'm getting booed by my own fans and I'm thinking about my mum as I'm coming on to play for England." – Joe Cole (44:04)
  • "My mum stopped buying newspapers." – Joe Cole (42:59)

• Playing for England Today vs. Past:

  • "All these players like each other's pictures and chat on Instagram, never met each other ... When they do see each other in England, it's like, 'What's happening, you out here?'" – Rio Ferdinand (21:38)

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Critical Timestamps

• Early Career Dreams & Call-Ups: 00:02 – 04:58
• The Shift from Joy to Pressure: 05:19 – 08:33
• Squad Divisions and Rivalries: 11:01 – 13:08
• Tactical Naivety & Coaching Issues: 13:36 – 16:09, 18:19 – 19:21
• Media Stress & Culture of Fear: 27:37 – 29:52, 44:04
• Golden Generation Burden: 41:10 – 42:45
• Leadership and Identity Lapses: 28:49
• Management Reluctance to Change: 46:37
• Personal Reflections on Enjoyment: 34:27 – 36:33

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Lessons & Takeaways

• Tactics Matter: Reliance on talent alone is not enough without a flexible, modern tactical approach.
• Unity is Essential: Deep-rooted club rivalries undermine national success; leaders must proactively build trust and cohesion.
• Leadership Required: Strong leaders set clear identity and expectations, empower communication, and foster adaptability.
• Managing Pressure: The impact of media scrutiny and unrealistic public expectations must be managed, both personally and organizationally.
• Learning from Other Nations: Success can hinge on a willingness to adapt, communicate, and place team needs ahead of individual or club interests.

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This honest, self-critical episode is an invaluable listen for football fans, coaches, and anyone interested in high performance, underlining that talent alone is never enough—you also need unity, adaptability, and brave leadership to reach the top.

Transcript

[Peter Crouch]

The 1990 World cup was pivotal for me. Watching Gazza. I remember thinking in my bedroom watching it, but I want to be that.

[Rio Ferdinand]

I was unbelievably proud, and the pride that I took walking out. And again, like I say, knowing you're one of the best in your country never left me. But I never enjoyed the games.

[Joe Cole]

My mum and dad and sister in the crowd, and the whole stand and the whole. The whole stadium are booing me because of, you know, maybe a little campaign sort of against me.

[Interviewer]

The World cup is almost here.

[Rio Ferdinand]

I don't know about you.

[Interviewer]

I'm excited. And I wanted to go back to a conversation we had with three men who lived in arguably England's greatest era of players and never got it over the line. I'm talking in this case, about Rio Ferdinand, Peter Crouch and Joe Cole. Between the three of them, they've got over 200 caps and were part of what's known as the Golden Generation, that great group of English players, the best we've had in decades. But why did it never happen? What we found in this conversation is honestly one of the most open, fascinating breakdowns of what can go wrong inside the winning environment. And it's a story that can only be told long after the event has happened. So with England heading into another tournament, I think it's more relevant now than ever, and maybe this time they're gonna get it right.

[Interviewer/Host]

When I talk about playing for England, first of all, I'd love to hear from all three of you about the emotion that that brings up. What's the first thing you think about when I talk about your England careers?

[Rio Ferdinand]

I don't know. For me personally, I was. I just thought, I am one of the best players in the country now. Because you never really think about that when you're on your way up, when you're on a journey to. To get to the pinnacle which was playing for your country? I was growing up at West Ham, at the academy there. Joe was just underneath. And it's like, that's an achievement to get in the West Ham first team. And then you're setting new targets. And it's always like, england's the one, though. Like, because at that point, you're not thinking about winning. It's just getting into the first team, becoming a pro. And then if you can get into England team and set your new goals and achieve that. And when that call comes or the facts that I got, it was just like, first, you want to tell your mum. We spoke about this the other day, didn't we? You tell your mum, go home and tell your mates on your estate. And then you. You do settle into your. Your bed or your sofa at some point on that day and go, right, I am actually one of the best in this. In the world, in. In this country.

[Joe Cole]

Like, yeah, I've got to take that on. I remember South Africa, World Cup 2010. I was on the golf course and I remember getting a call from Franco Baldini saying that you're going to the World Cup. And I've got the call and then he said, by the way, you're going to be number nine, right? So then obviously, straight away, the first person I call is my dad. Always I call my dad and say, dad, go to the World cup. And I'm wearing number nine. And then obviously, like, he put in perspective for me because I thought, you know, great. That was all I thought about. Then he thought, actually he broke it down for me and said, think about how many boys and girls, like, play football in England or English who dream of playing for England. Think of how many people make it as a professional footballer. Think of how many people get the chance to play for England. Then think of how many people get a chance to play for England in a World cup. And then think about how many people want to wear the number nine. And I'm like, on this particular occasion, it was me. And then, like, when he broke it down like that, I started getting goosebumps and thinking, oh, my God, like, this is really prestigious. And then Cappello proceeded to play me for three minutes.

[Rio Ferdinand]

In the last one minute,

[Peter Crouch]

you must have knowing you was going up for the next tee shot. You must have been confident it was on the answer.

[Joe Cole]

England's number nine. I wasn't answering for sort of first 18, obviously. You don't answer your phone, do you? On the 18th, where's this number? And then thankfully answered it.

[Rio Ferdinand]

What was the next shot like, though?

[Joe Cole]

No, no, it was done. I was like. I was coming off the green.

[Rio Ferdinand]

Yeah, yeah, A few beers, then straight

[Joe Cole]

away, without, without doubt.

[Peter Crouch]

Yeah, similar. Similar to what the boys said. I think plan for England was really important to me because where I. Like we talked about the other night, but where I lived, I used to go and watch England. I used to get on the tube and go and watch England. And the 1990 World cup was pivotal for me. Watching Gazza play and do what he did was like, right, I remember thinking in my bedroom watching it, but I want to be that. I want to be Gaz. I want to go to the World cup. And. And then so when you get the call to play for England, eventually that's all I can think of. I just want to do. If I could just leave something, a little memory. Because remember Platts volleyball? All of us after that goal went out, we'd have gone out onto the estate and got the lads to throw the ball up and try and do that volley. Do you know what I mean? And then the fact, the thought of I've got the opportunity to do something,

[Rio Ferdinand]

he's leading us to his volley against Sweden. Is that what you're going.

[Peter Crouch]

You've just ruined it for me. So that's where it makes.

[Joe Cole]

We've had all these stories before.

[Peter Crouch]

This could have been in any pub in East London.

[Joe Cole]

I'd have just reeled you all in there.

[Peter Crouch]

No, but like just being able to pull that shirt on, play for England and, and be able to do something like, that was amazing.

[Interviewer]

And how soon though does it go from like the pleasure of being picked for England to then put into a whim for England?

[Rio Ferdinand]

Straight away really, you get it's business immediately you get there and it's like, do you know what? I was lucky. I was almost used to being around the England squad because I went as like a 16 year old to the Euros Euro 98 in England where it was like a magnificent tournament and they got to the semis and I was there for like probably about eight or nine days as a young kid introducing you to the England set up. But it's a young kid who they think's got potential. So it was like. So when I went there it was. I didn't really have that bedding in period where a bit nervous still, but I've been here type thing. So I was very much like, okay, I want to get, get in the team now. I weren't there just happy to be there as a one of the squad players. I was thinking, I think I should play, I think I should be in. And it's you. You look around the dressing room and you're thinking like I had like Gareth Southgate, Tony Adams, Sol Campbell, Martin Keown and people out there in front of me. But I actually thought I should be playing and it was weird. And I actually ended up coming on my debut for Gareth Southgate. He got injured and. And it's weird to say, but you're sitting there delighted in a way. It's bad. But listen, I hope he's all right, but thanks. And then you go on and you do your thing and you hope they never see that player again.

[Peter Crouch]

That's interesting. Because Glenn done that. Glen Otto would have been manager, bringing the young players in, and Terry Venables. And then we didn't do that under Sven, did we? We never, never saw a young player. And in all of our era, and then St. George's park, when you go up there now, they're all close to each other, integrated. So it immediately takes out that sort of. Any nerves that these young lads are going to play for England would have, because they've been around it, they've seen Harry Kane, they know them, they've had a coffee with him and, you know, so it's. I think it's vital for the success going forward.

[Joe Cole]

My mindset was totally different to these boys, I'll be honest, because Joe and rio were like 18, 19. I think everyone knew they're going to play for England, you know, like Steven Gerrard way Rooney, Michael Owen, you know, that they're on a path to play for England. Mine was different. You know, I went roundabout. I wasn't ready for the Premier League till I was 23 and, you know, I played in it, but I wasn't ready for it. So when I got in England squad, it was the. It was the back end of a season and it was like the tour of America. A lot of people dropped out, you know, but I thought, this is my chance. Yeah, as you're an experienced institution. I was there Crouch, you know, but for me, I thought, this is my chance. There's two games and my mindset was I got to play both of them, so I'm not a one cap wonder. And that was genuinely. Because I thought that was a fear.

[Interviewer/Host]

Was it a proper fear?

[Joe Cole]

Of course it was. I don't want to be that one person who gets one cup. And I got injured for the first game and my debut was in the second game in usa and I did quite well. But then obviously my next. I got called up to the next one and thankfully, you know, my England career sort of progressed. But I looked at it like Rio's talking about, you know, ultra confidence that he should be playing every single game. Mine was. I know I'm not better than Wayne Rooney or Michael Owen. I'm conf. I'm happy with that. But my goal was to be the best of the rest. You know, they both were quite injury prone and I knew that if I was just behind them at everybody. So I'm talking, you know, Jermaine Defoe. Carl. Carl got in there for a few. Dean Ashton got in there. Darren, Ben.

[Rio Ferdinand]

So you're saying. So you're saying you're better than them?

[Joe Cole]

I'm saying my goal was to be better than he was.

[Rio Ferdinand]

Better than you say is that you said.

[Joe Cole]

What I'm saying is I want to make sure that I'm the on the next best, basically. Yeah. So that was my mindset.

[Peter Crouch]

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[Joe Cole]

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[Peter Crouch]

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[Joe Cole]

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[Interviewer/Host]

So what I love about this is that all three of you, when I say the moment you get caught up for England, like your eyes light up. I remember having a conversation on BT with Rio and Frank and Steven, and I remember Stephen saying something really interesting. He said, playing for England was hard. It wasn't enjoyable. And then I speak to Coutinho, who goes away with Brazil and they love it. And we never had that with England. So I think the natural progression for this conversation is you go from, oh my goodness, I'm going to play for my country and you first. At the age of six, kick in a football. Dreamed of that moment. Why are you all now sitting here having had brilliant England careers but you never lifted A trophy for England. What wasn't right in your era?

[Rio Ferdinand]

Every single manager I played for had a problem with issues with the media. They were leaking stories about certain players who were misbehaving. Probably, definitely. But also it just felt like it was them against us. It wasn't like we're going to the World cup or the Euros together. Talking of Stevie, I remember we come on a coach after a game away somewhere, and we played and we didn't play particularly well, none of us. And we're sitting there, I think. I don't know if we got beat or whatever, but he come on the bus and I remember him getting up, putting his bag down, sitting down, and went, that'll probably be at 4 in the paper tomorrow, like. But that. That type of comment was like, that's one of the first things on your mind as an England player, then. It's not conducive to a good working environment, to be the best, to be elite, to be a winning team. Because you're worried about the reaction of the media, who are so powerful at that time, especially in our country. Bearing in mind there was no social media then, so what they said was the gospel. It wasn't like, you can say stuff now in the media and these papers can write stuff or people can say stuff. Pundits like ourselves can speak. Players have a voice now and a platform to go, no, that ain't right. Or I don't agree with that. So. And I don't know, we. We weren't good enough, really, was we?

[Joe Cole]

Yeah, I do think there's an element of. It was the. The competitiveness of the Premier League. I think if I look at, like, Rio, Beck, Gary Neville, Scholes, you know, you've got, you know, JT Lamps, Joe, Stevie, Cara, like that Premier League at that time was war. It was. It was. It was two, like, four, five really, really good teams. And at the core of that was. Were English players. And. And I feel that, like, it was detrimental to the. To the England team, how competitive the Premier League was and how much you wanted to get one over on. Did you?

[Rio Ferdinand]

Did you? I felt that, but I've never heard it from someone. Did you feel that when you was in the squad?

[Joe Cole]

Yeah, yeah, I think you could see it. Like, for me, I was quite new to it and I think certainly the Manchester Liverpool thing is a thing. Right.

[Rio Ferdinand]

Having played as soon as you signed there, he was an enemy.

[Joe Cole]

You were exactly right. So Alex Ferguson would. That would put that in your head. The same as, you know, anyone from Liverpool, you know, and even the regional thing, no matter about the, the. The team, the teams, how successful they are, but as places, you know, it's just a thing. And I think it's less, far less fractured just now. You know, they look like they all get on. They all look like they're not at war. Every Saturday, you know, remember those games that we played in the Champions League? Those that was all out, like, intense, intense.

[Peter Crouch]

Mentally exhausting, intense.

[Joe Cole]

And the two managers, you know, were rivals. Everyone was rivals. And then you meet up for England, like, how are you going to leave that at the door and then be a team?

[Peter Crouch]

Yeah, to be fair, like, I, I listen to what the boys say, but I, I think it's more from a pragmatic. I just think tactically we would fallen behind, you know, and you have to remember Glenn, you know, then Kevin Keegan come in and he didn't. He went a bit old school Kevin. And then we went on to Sven. Sven was doing stuff 442 rigid, rigid stuff that I was doing at 14. At 14, I had a. I had a. Said, this ain't right. You know, I watch Italian football, you know, when they're. They're playing in triangles, they're playing out from the back, players are taking responsibility. And we'd. I'd go away with England from the age of under 15, right the way through every level, and we wouldn't have control of the games. But I know we'd have better players, technically, physically, like, mentally, like the order, the England team, all them names you listed. Rio, John Frank, Stevie Rooney. Elite players, no doubt. I've played with the best players in the world. We all have, like, been fortunate enough to do that and they're as good as them, you know. But tactically, I just think it was a case where we was going the wrong way down a road of how we believe football should be played so far. And we'd all been brought up in that sort of system, so when it comes to international football, we wasn't set up to win international football. We could win a game off of brilliance of an England player. You know, whether it be a Beckham free kick, Stevie scoring a wonder goal, whatever. But I just think the system in place was fragile. It wasn't, you know. It wasn't.

[Rio Ferdinand]

Yeah, we never had. If I asked you, did. Did you ever play in an easy England game where you come off and you went. That was like the easiest game. Like you didn't even get a sweat on. But for our clubs, you could name loads of games. You probably Forgot more than you'd remember. How many easy games you had with England was never easy. I always used to think, this is graft. Go to, like, Moldova and come off sweating, thinking, jesus got through that one.

[Joe Cole]

Why?

[Rio Ferdinand]

Because tactically, we were. We were. We were so poor. Like, we were so rich. I remember.

[Peter Crouch]

What patterns of play do you remember? No one ever said, right, when you get the ball, you need to have this, this. This option. When the goalie gets the ball, you need to be here. When Rio gets the ball, you can be here or here. And, you know, like, you see with players now, there's clear paths. It's like standard for even the poor teams. You can see what they're trying to do. With us, I don't know what we were trying.

[Rio Ferdinand]

We relied on individuals. You look at the big games we won, like Karachi scored the goals in the, in the. The World cup. It's like individual brilliance in it. It's just because Karachi's there, knows where to be instinctively. It ain't like, oh, we've. We've worked to get in that position to then play. It was just like, get it there and then someone will be there to finish it off. Michael Owen, in the World cup, did

[Interviewer]

you ever feel you could go and challenge tactics or discuss them in more detail with the coaches?

[Rio Ferdinand]

Was Fabio Capello. No. I remember he screamed at Fear Walcott that first session. Do you remember Fear Walcott Ghost recovered. Because he said before the session, he's like, he played right wing. He said, I don't want you to run inside. Was in Australia, Austria before South Africa. He said, I don't want my wingers to come inside. Stay wide, stay wide. He really went on about it. John, that point home and the first whistle, the first player of the game. Fear's running inside and he stopped the session, screamed, going nuts. I remember Fear getting on the coach after going, wow.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Rio Ferdinand]

So scared.

[Interviewer/Host]

Like, what does that do then to the rest of the players who. Who are established internationals who should be able to share their thoughts or their

[Rio Ferdinand]

views, Culture weren't like that.

[Peter Crouch]

No. No, we wasn't. Like, again, we, the boys are right, in a sense. There was a disjointedness between Liverpool, Manchester United and Chelsea players. And Crouch is right. There was massive rivalries that don't exist now, that was. But I really think it was the tactical side of things. And if you go on to Capello, who, by the way, has been a genius and what a career he's had, you know, you can't disregard what he's Done. But my problem with Capello from, from and when I was fit, largely because that was sort of to start my England end of my England career, but start my injury problems when I was fit. He played me apart from it, apart from at the World cup, like went to 2010, so. But the way that he didn't live in England, I just think there wasn't no care and attention. It turned up when it was close to an England game. And then what done me was at the World cup when there was all watching Italy like hollering and hooting when they scored. Like, I just think that the foresight of, of that wasn't great. It was not good optics for like.

[Interviewer/Host]

It bothered you?

[Peter Crouch]

It bothered me, yeah.

[Rio Ferdinand]

If you look at them now though, you, you obviously do a bit of coaching and stuff.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Rio Ferdinand]

But you see the coaches on the way they coach now. You go to watch any kind of academy games. The football is replicating what you've seen in the Premier League with man city type football. There's no long ball game really now,

[Joe Cole]

but you can see how much they've worked on that in training. And I know look like it's slightly different. Different when you've got a group for maybe a week or ten days, it's not. You can't work on it every single day. But I don't remember working on. On much, do you?

[Rio Ferdinand]

Set pieces.

[Peter Crouch]

Set pieces and defending. But if you, if you took England, if you can get back in time machine and take an England team from 2002 and think you've got all these great players and what's been the problem handling the ball in tournaments at important times. So you ain't got to tell Rio Fernand, John Terry at defend, Ashley Cole, Gary Neville, like they can play in the back four. So I think the time would have been better off used to implementing patterns of play, how to hold on to the ball.

[Rio Ferdinand]

Our generation for definite was never brought up. And this generation's a bit better, but still nowhere near what Spain and Italy and France are like. We were always taught do not pass the ball to a man with someone marketing him. Well, if you're gonna, if you're gonna win, you need to pass the ball to people that are marked to be able to take that man out of game sometimes. I mean, and if you have got someone under a bit of pressure, give it to him, be confident to give it to him. Whereas that's where you end up going away from what your principles are and your values are as a team. Because you're not confident and you remember, you told don't give it to Ms. Risk to pass it into someone who's marked. And so I think there's a lot of things, reasons why we didn't win. I think definitely I agree with the guys. I think the tactics of our team and the generation was bad for the players we had. But I do feel that the environment wasn't the right environment to create a winning team.

[Interviewer]

So can I ask you around that then? Because when we interviewed Gareth, he spoke to us around, he tried to break down this club versus country and make it club and country. And one of the ways he'd done it was by getting players to tell a little bit of their own story so you can see more what you have in common rather than what divides you, like club loyalties. So was anything ever done like that in terms of breaking down barriers or have, you know, you're in hotels where you've got all this time. Was anything ever done where people can tell a little bit of their few

[Peter Crouch]

drinks in the bar after games? That was it. And that, that was, to be fair, that was the tool used mainly to, you know, break down barriers. Social lubricant, have a little drink.

[Joe Cole]

Yeah. But I, I also think it's the to. I think the England national team has benefited from, I don't want to say less competitive Premier League, but a less aggressive Premier League, if you like. I. I think we all remember, you know, Roy Keane in the tunnel, you know, like, would that happen now? You know, little things like that. I'm talking about, like horrific tackles flying in.

[Rio Ferdinand]

We almost had a fight until, remember,

[Joe Cole]

you know, makes with England. But we were, you know, things would go on, on the pitch, I'd win that fight. Yeah, I just feel like it's. I definitely think that the Premier League is a different place now than what it was. I don't think we can. I think we can all agree on that. It's not, you know, I think it's an amazing product. It's a beautiful. We all love watching it, but it's not what it was in those days.

[Rio Ferdinand]

It doesn't have the subplots that it was in our time. You knew that you was. I don't know that Sanso's playing so and so there would be some sort of subplot, whether it's the two manager at it or there'll be a player, you know, doesn't like that player, and there'll be like an aggressive spark that could just change the whole dynamics of the game. It doesn't really Seem like. And I think the reason why that isn't the same now is because one, the personalities and characters are different and their upbringings have been different. But also with social media, you're now. You're now without ever meeting someone, you're a mate. So all of these players like each other's pictures, which is the culture today. They like each other's pictures and chat on Instagram. Never met each other. So when they do see each other in England, it's like, what's happening you out here? Because they've got a common place where they've been connecting. Whereas if I didn't see Karachi home and away in the games and then I see him in England, I wouldn't chat to him ever again, really. I might see him on a night out, but he wouldn't remember. He'd be too drunk.

[Interviewer/Host]

Why did none of you. And you know, there were other big leaders in the England team at the time. Why did nobody see this and change this? Well, why did you not see that? You weren't. You weren't close or tight.

[Peter Crouch]

Like, go back to you're smart people, 2010. And you know, we talk about why didn't anyone go to the manager. JT tried to speak to the manager and he. He was the captain along with Rio at that time, I can't remember. But like big players and he just got absolute shut down.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right.

[Peter Crouch]

So JT then come out and was. And he did an interview before one of the World Cups and he was like, well, you know, I kind of remembered the. The. He was like, we're gonna have a chat with the manager about something in the meeting. The press must have asked the question, the results were bad. And then. And then we had this meeting arranged with Capello which was going to be the players, do you remember? And the players and the manager. And it was going to have a conversation about what we can do and we turned up and then he just went go to dinner and that was it. And I'm like, probably could have been handled a bit better in terms of. I'm not in terms of how you ask about it, but if you. We could have had a really for right. Conversation just before a World cup and we could have got aired things. You know, I think the culture was different though.

[Rio Ferdinand]

The culture was different because that's like. It was almost like these managers then probably saw it more like, you're questioning my, my. The way I rule other nations to

[Interviewer/Host]

win tournaments and competitions. Like they were doing something that England weren't like.

[Joe Cole]

There was chalk and cheese when it. We had Sven, which was so relaxed. And then. And then we were getting. It was getting labeled, like, player power. Players are running the show, you know, and so they went so far the other way. So you weren't allowed to speak to Fabio Cappello because he. He ruled it with an iron fist. It was like. It was like we had this that didn't work. So we're going to have this now. And we were just told this is how we do it. Until things started going badly at a World cup and all the, you know, kind of things that were banned or stopped were allowed to. He tried to relax us because he realized. He sort of panicked mid tournament that we weren't performing.

[Rio Ferdinand]

Sven was bringing, like, shirts to get signed by Beckstar. When he remembered the English England manager, I couldn't believe it. Yeah, getting shirts, like, best designed shirts. Like, I was almost like, what was

[Interviewer]

your perception of that when you seeing a manager do that?

[Rio Ferdinand]

I just turned away in disgust. I was like, whoa. Like. Because the England manager's like, he's the. He's the man in it. He's like. Your manager is like. You look at him as if he's the rules of roost. He directs where we're going. He's like, looks at no man in this team with, like, admiration or would show that. Oh, a bit of a star, a bit of an icon there. It just felt like that was the. I was like, wow. It's just. It was mad as well. It is weird, this, but Bex is an absolute superstar and we're all happy and that's fine, that's not a problem. But it's mad. We used to laugh at it as a team because I remember we got off the coach once and Bex got off to coach and all of our security just went with Bex and the whole team was standing there and there's like fans coming from all over the gaff and they go, we're all getting marauded by all these fans pictures here, there, and you look around and Bex is just. It weren't his fault. Just. It's. The security was like, he's the. He's the superstar. But, like, it was it, isn't it for me. I didn't give a hell about anything. Like, they weren't. Don't bother me. But when you look at it afterwards with hindsight and you think, okay, there must have been some people right in the same. Yeah, but subconsciously, some people might go flipping, oh, yeah, I was one more free one for us. It's like. And then it just. That that's just a little tweak in the ambience, then, and the environment and the culture that it changes. It could be a problem for and contribute to why you didn't become successful. Not the be all and end all, but if you know what I mean.

[Interviewer]

So that World cup in 2010 that you're describing it, like, if you take Spain as an example, at the time when Mourinho and Barcelona. Mourinho's Madrid and Barcelona were at loggerheads, and there's that story that the goalkeeper, Casillas and Xavi had connected on a private phone call because they'd gone back through the youth ranks and they agreed to stop the enmity, to bring this squad together for the World Cup.

[Peter Crouch]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Did any of the players ever get together privately? If you've not got the manager, that's encouraging it. Did any of you reach out and try and build these bonds?

[Peter Crouch]

I didn't, but like I said, I. I could. I could sense now, looking back at the things, but because of my character, I didn't. I was always a bit of a floater anyway. I could go and mix, mingle with anyone. I knew Rio very well. I knew Michael Carrick. He was my roommate for four years at West Ham.

[Rio Ferdinand]

So.

[Peter Crouch]

Yes. And I didn't feel like I wasn't, like, one of the main. I wasn't in the leadership group, like one of the main people. So I wasn't really. I'm gonna go.

[Joe Cole]

If I just started a group chat. What's Coley doing? Come on, mate. I feel like I'm in that boat. They laughed me out the room, but I decided, yeah, I went along with whatever went.

[Interviewer/Host]

Maybe you just thought this was what playing for England was like. Almost every former England player that I now work with says our playing for England was, like, scary. I was rigid, I was tight. I was anxious about the reaction of the media. I was never free.

[Rio Ferdinand]

Is that true?

[Joe Cole]

I think so. For me, yeah. It was until I started scoring. I always felt like I had to prove. I had to. I had to score in every game just to stay in there, because I didn't fit the profile of an England player. I didn't look like an England player. You know, I was different to everything else. So I. I felt like.

[Rio Ferdinand]

Yeah.

[Joe Cole]

And I felt there was. You could feel it. Even. I rem Starting the first game at the World cup, like 2006, and in the dressing room beforehand, like, players were doing things that they'd never done before, you know, Like I did. I definitely felt that there was a. There was a nervous sort of thing. Just like, you just notice things around. Like, I'm not talking smallest details, like Rio was saying. Like the smallest little things. You think we'd have a huddle right before we went out? Never done that before. Yeah, I know it's a big game, but, like, we've never done that before. So why are we doing that now? Just tiny little things.

[Rio Ferdinand]

Everyone's looking at each other.

[Joe Cole]

Yeah, it was like, why are we in a huddle? Like, just little things like that. Like before you go out, play Paraguay in the opening game and like, you just think that's nervousness. You know, I don't know. It's just. It breeds and you can feel it.

[Rio Ferdinand]

But it shows you. There was no real leadership from the top. From the manager then. Because I think the managers drive it. I think all the clubs that I played at, the manager drove the way the team carried himself. And there was a reflection of the manager and the England team. We didn't even have a real identity under Sven and under Capello. It was just. Or identity was all the wrong identity type of things. I said it right. Well, your identity was all wrong because of the person who was in charge and you reflected that person with Sven. We were quite a nervous team at times. Do you know what I mean? We were placid in everything we'd done, passive in the way that we played. We just relied on the individuals to come in and produce a performance or a moment. We got to the World cup because of Becks against Greece. If Becks doesn't play, we don't go. It's just an individual's performance who got us there. It's crazy, but that's just how we were. So it shows you that the functionality of the whole team was wrong.

[Interviewer]

So if you look back now, then what?

[Rio Ferdinand]

Sorry. And just to go back to the point about Xavi and Casillas, I respect that because that's a maturity to address. See it and then address it. I think we were too club dominant. It's like almost thinking, we're going to go back to our clubs. What's the gaffer going to say? What's the fans going to say? Because they didn't. Our fans didn't. They'd say, bomb the England team and come play for United. That's the way it was back then.

[Joe Cole]

That's what Alex Ferguson encouraged as well.

[Rio Ferdinand]

Right.

[Joe Cole]

So the same as most of the club managers, I think they don't care about your national team. Do they? There's absolutely no care given at all.

[Peter Crouch]

In the same sense, though, the Spanish were ahead of their time tactically as well. So even like they. They won the World cup probably, despite of the. In spite of the fact that they probably weren't. And also Xavi and Cassias's maturity coming together. So they had the tactical now, they had the quality players and then they had to get togetherness and that's why they won three tournaments. So it's like we're trying to just. We're trying to find the reason why England didn't win. There's probably multiple reasons and we always have to say maybe, maybe we wasn't good enough as well individually.

[Joe Cole]

Look at some of the teams there.

[Peter Crouch]

Do you know what I mean?

[Joe Cole]

At that time? Brazil, you know, some of the teams there, France, Spain, Germany.

[Peter Crouch]

Yeah, we have to be. But like, it's hard for the ego and we might say, well, maybe we just wasn't good enough as well. So when we had a difficult moment at a tournament, someone got sent off doing something rash or a team just broke us down and we lost our, you know, composure because you need to have everything.

[Rio Ferdinand]

Name names.

[Peter Crouch]

No.

[Interviewer]

So how much planning was ever done on things going wrong, people getting sent off, divisions in a cam, media stuff, how much was that ever discussed?

[Peter Crouch]

Nothing, not that I can remember. It's meant. It was people be at home going, what like. But it is. That was literally was. We knew the system, we was going to play. You knew who was going to play, you more or less knew what you know, and we were going to do the same thing through all different stages of the games and that was it. That's how far. That's why I say tactically, because we

[Rio Ferdinand]

never changed to suits to an opponent, ever.

[Peter Crouch]

I'm like, we. Like you could have done saying the qualifier when we played one of them games, if we like Rio said we could play Moldova or Macedonia and we won the game. Say we won the game 3:1. And if you'd have actually pulled the game apart and gone, hold on a minute, we had. We could have had so much more possession. If we'd have had a Michael Carrick in there and extra body, we'd have allowed Rio Ferdinand to drop into the midfield and then come back. Why don't we work on that for the next camp, the next game when we're playing San Marino at home, we're going to win the game because we can play with nine men and win the game, but if we can just get that part, we work for Three days on, getting that part of the team right, bang, right, okay, we'll win the game. And there was an improvement in that, how he was getting out, you know, and then we take that into the next game, then we go, right this, the middle phase of the pitch. Like, we got Steven Gerrard, we got. What is there, what. And Frank Lambert, Owen Hargreaves, you know, we got. What are their qualities? What can they bring? Let's try and get the best. Let's find a system, play. But it was none of that. And that's why I hear, they hear what the lads are saying about the, you know, that could have been solved easily.

[Rio Ferdinand]

But that goes, that goes to the point as well. You only enjoy being somewhere with football if you're winning or if you're playing well. At least the ambience, the environment's perfect, the culture's great, but they're getting beat every game and they don't look like they're ever going to win a game. And the football's rubbish. No one player will come out of there going, it's a great, great squad, though. Love being here. They'd all hate it.

[Interviewer/Host]

Did you get the balance, Enjoy playing for England?

[Joe Cole]

Yeah, I did, I did, I did.

[Peter Crouch]

I. I did.

[Joe Cole]

I loved it. I think, like, whenever I played, like, I say, I was. I knew I was sort of like a plan B at times, but you

[Interviewer/Host]

can still be proud, but, like, actually enjoy.

[Joe Cole]

I enjoyed it.

[Rio Ferdinand]

I. I was unbelievably proud and the pride that I took walking out. And again, like I say, knowing you're one of the best in your country never left me. Every time I stepped out for England, every time I got called up, there was a buzz, but I never enjoyed the games. I enjoy training, I like training and stuff. I love training every day, but I've never come out of a squad and go, I absolutely love that camp because there was things that weren't good about the camp and there was the game where, like I say, we never had a game where I went, you know what we are. We're a problem for everyone, for anyone. We could beat anyone. Didn't feel like that.

[Joe Cole]

Yeah, for me, I was just selfish in many ways. I just. Because I just thought, I'm playing for England, right? And I just thought, I'm playing with all these great players. And every time I put on English shirt, I felt I was going to score. I felt like I was invincible.

[Rio Ferdinand]

They couldn't defend you, honestly.

[Joe Cole]

International football and Champions League football, I'd prefer to play that than I'D play in the Premier League.

[Peter Crouch]

Yeah.

[Joe Cole]

Like, I just felt that they couldn't handle me and I felt like I was. I'd go into games knowing I was going to score them on the right, I've got Joe Cole on the left, I've got Stevie behind me, Frank behind me. You know, I felt invincible, literally. And I'm talking purely from a selfish point of view. Like, I'm not looking at the bigger picture. I'm thinking about me scoring, playing for England. And every time I went to an England game, I felt like it. I was just, what.

[Rio Ferdinand]

What defenders did you play against? Who you thought, wow, this is like superstar defenders who I thought are top, top players that you went and played at international or Champions League level and thought, hold on a minute, I've just torn you apart, mate.

[Joe Cole]

Honestly, like, it sounds stupid. I don't even know if I can.

[Rio Ferdinand]

I know the answer. I know the answer. That's why I've asked you.

[Joe Cole]

Do you know I said this, I said this the other day. I'd prefer to play against Nesta, Right. Than Gary Kale.

[Rio Ferdinand]

Right.

[Interviewer/Host]

Which is.

[Joe Cole]

Which is. But for my qualities, you know, and what my qualities are. I. I feel like I could. I could. I could. I would dominate you. Yeah, yeah. And that sounds ridiculous. I know it does. But I'd get joy against him. Fabulous defender. But I just felt like for my colleagues, they hadn't. They never saw anything like me, you know, and. And that's. I used that to my advantage.

[Peter Crouch]

Y. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

There's something really interesting, I think, that's come out of this conversation, which is that, you know, Peter felt almost lucky, right, to be playing for England. And you've been very honest about that. Whereas, you know, you've got like a Rolls Royce footballer, which, what you were referred to as, who almost expected to play for England because you were at the absolute top of your game. Yet for Peter, there was freedom playing for England. For you, there was restriction playing for England. And I think that comes down to expectations. So I would love to know from the three of you what what this tag of golden generation did or didn't do for all of you.

[Peter Crouch]

Now, going back to, like, just to answer your question previously, did I enjoy. I love playing for England, but throughout my career, I was always. For some reason, it was. People would. I always felt pressure going on to pitch, whether it be for West Ham, Chelsea, because for some reason people always wanted to talk about what I couldn't do rather than what I could do. So playing for England was not a problem. Pressure Wise, I played for that on my back the whole time. That was the era that I felt right away. I got maybe the first year in my career at 17 out of the way where everyone was patting me on the back. Then after that it was more along them lines what couldn't do. So playing for England, I never felt the pressure, but I could see it in other players a little bit more like I wasn't. I didn't care whether I got a four or five or a six, genuinely like, you know what I mean? So I think that's what helped me. But the golden generation, the burden was probably on Rio. More John, Frank, Steve. I don't think. I think I was on the cusp of that. I played 56 times, but if I went and done something, scored a goal or made a goal and assisted it, it was everyone pat me on the back. But it wasn't expected of me. Wayne Rooney, the spine of the team, bore the brunt of that.

[Joe Cole]

You know, in the Premier League, these boys, super human levels, you know, it was like Rio and jt, like Lampson, Stevie Rooney, Owen, you know what they did. That spine in the Premier League was so unbelievable that everyone just assumed that that would happen for England and they'd all be the same and doing it and that's hard. It was hard to replicate.

[Interviewer/Host]

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[Rio Ferdinand]

I grew up watching John Barnes and Chris Waddle for England. Two of the best, most talented players of their generation booed for England. Yeah, told they shouldn't be playing. So when I got into England team and we were labeled the golden generation, it wasn't our fault, it just wasn't that it was labeled. We labeled it. It was almost like, well, I've seen this before, I've heard this before, I've seen big talents before me, better players than me booed and told they shouldn't play for England. So I can't moan about it and. But I didn't find it a huge burden. It was just mainly in press conferences. When people would talk about it, it would come up. I'd never thought about it outside of that. But I think some people dealt with it different. Some people felt that pressure a bit more. Probably more attacking players as well, because there's an expectance. You've got to go and produce something. A lot of defenders are reacting to people's movements and strikers. Whereas an attacking player, you've got to go out there and score and if you don't, you're meant to be the golden generation. So it's difficult for them. I'm sure more than myself, you have to expect criticism. I think far too many players and people that are involved in the game nowadays is almost like, oh, you shouldn't say that about me. I 100% agree. If it's personal, it's over the line. It's too far. If we're talking tactics and the way your game is and whatnot and about the 90 minutes, you're an open book, you should be sitting there and going, you know what? If I can take anything out of it, great. If I don't agree with it, close the book, move on. Don't take these things personal. Expect it. Especially in a tournament when you're in that bubble, expect the criticism that's going to come and use it as fuel.

[Joe Cole]

Yeah, I do think sort of like sort of hop back on to where we were playing. But I do think some of the, some of the stuff was, was below the belt. Like, like some of the, some of the things were nasty. I remember personally going through a lot. My mum stopped buying newspapers.

[Rio Ferdinand]

Like what, what caricatures and things like that even.

[Joe Cole]

I mean just complete Mick taking, you know, like schoolboy stuff, you know, but like it affects you, it becomes a thing, you know. And like, I think it was, it was definitely an issue for me. I, I, I struggled.

[Interviewer]

In what way? What do you mean?

[Joe Cole]

Well, I went from playing, you know, for Southampton. Then as soon as you get in the England squad, like things are heightened obviously. Then I went to Liverpool and I Went for a spell of not scoring goals which was well documented and now I just became a figure of fun instantly. And then yeah, and obviously you got to remember my mum and dad are in the crowd and I remember coming on at Old Trafford and getting booed by my, by my own fans. And it was probably a little bit of that between Liverpool Man United, like that kind of rivalry. But that was obviously crept into the stands. So my mum and dad and sister are in the crowd and the whole England whole stand and the whole, the whole stadium are booing me because of you know, maybe a little campaign sort of against me to not be in England squad. So like let's be Honest, right, I'm 24 year old kid, right, I'm getting booed by my own fans and I'm thinking about my mum as I'm coming on to play for England.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that was your first start.

[Joe Cole]

She's in tears, you know and I know I knew she knew it was upset and she didn't come to an England game for the next five, six times. But these are all things that sort of going on behind, behind the scenes. But for me personally obviously I don't show any weakness. I'm like yeah, I come on the pitch and I'll do as well as I can. And I don't show, I don't say to any of the lads like it

[Rio Ferdinand]

wasn't a game you scored actually no it wasn't.

[Joe Cole]

I wish it was but, but like I say like that I had to sort of deal with that and then I'm obviously really proud of myself coming back from that and then, and then showing those people like, you know, coming through at Liverpool, started to score again and then staying in England squad and playing at two World Cups after that, you know, like that for me is a great sense of achievement.

[Interviewer]

Well there's that famous story that Jack Charlton when he was first picked for England he went to Alf Ramsey and said to him like why have you picked me? And Alf Ramsey said I don't pick the best players, I pick the right players. So what would you describe the right characteristics then for the right England players to succeed?

[Peter Crouch]

Personality, Personality above. And what I mean by that I mean a player who's going to go and demand the ball, demand to be put on the spot and the spotlight, you know, it could be a center half. Whether he's the one in the last five minutes who, you know when that ball's going to come in, he's going to put his face in the right area and get the Ball, it's going to be a midfielder. When we're losing two nil against Germany, who's going to come on demand the ball? When Wembley's turning, you know, it's a center forwarder. You know, when he goes through one on one, he's gonna. He's gonna choose the right thing. The players who've got the personality above the ability. And then you need to look at the. The players who've done that, you know, consistently.

[Joe Cole]

You know, on that subject, though, do you think that what you touched on there is the right. It's the right player for that particular game or that particular personality. But do you think that, you know, all the players that we had, maybe it might not fit the right system. All those players would just fit in because they're such good players, you know, do you think we could have perhaps dropped one of those sort of Galacticos, if you like, in the Premier League and played an Owen Hargreaves?

[Rio Ferdinand]

Yeah.

[Joe Cole]

You know, or dropped one of the forwards or, you know. Do you know what I mean? Like, we felt. I felt like. And it was a. It was a situation that was leveled at us quite a lot. Yeah, we're just putting all the best players together and going crack on.

[Rio Ferdinand]

That definitely happened. But. But I do think that. And. And you could have affected that by playing a different. You. You could have appeased that by playing a different shape.

[Peter Crouch]

Yeah.

[Rio Ferdinand]

If we had a diamond in midfield or created a free to create overloads in midfield, it might have worked. But I totally agree with you. I don't think the managers were strong enough at the time to go, right, hold on, Becks. You got to sit on the bench. To draw Steven or Frank gone, you got to sit on the bench. It just was almost like, I can't do that.

[Peter Crouch]

I remember. Sorry, but I talk about that. I remember my. When I first started playing, we played Northern Ireland and away at home. We weren't. We were. Neil was. Neil.

[Rio Ferdinand]

Neil.

[Peter Crouch]

Leading up to the game and I was playing really well and we. But it was spec. Stevie, Frank and me in the midfield. I spoke to Kieran Dyer after the game and it was after. After. Think. I think I scored the opening goal after three or four minutes and Kieran and. But I was playing well, you know. You know, when you know you're playing well. And I was. It was coming. But Kieran said to me, Sven said to me, go and warm up. Are you coming on for Joe? Do you know what I mean? But that would. That was Sven's mindset. I can't take. Even though Joe's outperforming them in this game, I can't take them off. And Joe's looking like he's going to open up in the end. I scored the goal, we went on to win the game three or four one and Kieran sat down. But I would have known that Kieran come up to me and said to me the you was coming off, you know, do you know what I mean? I was like, so like that's the pressure.

[Joe Cole]

Probably we felt that we had to work. Like I have to score in every single game because I know that if I don't, I'm not coming back.

[Peter Crouch]

There was a loyalty to, I think

[Rio Ferdinand]

to go back to your wanting the question about what a player needs when you're playing for England. I think the ability to forget mistakes quickly at that level. Yeah, I've seen top players come through into the England squad or players that are terrorizing the Premier League at a certain point in their career and they get to the England squad, even just in training, forget the game and they make a mistake and they do not recover. And you think, hold on, that's the difference. It's there up there. Get that right. In terms of, okay, if I make a mistake, erase it as quickly as possible and don't let it have a hangover and you move on and you can build your performance after strength or something like that. And far too many have that hangover.

[Joe Cole]

Very good.

[Interviewer/Host]

Listen, gentlemen, thank you so much for that conversation. Great to reminisce, great to reflect and I hope there's something in there that people will hear and it will inform them about how to deal with the modern generation of England players and who knows what will happen in the next few weeks, eh?

[Interviewer]

I love that conversation and some of the things that the guys talked about there, whether it was the sending off injuries or just sheer bad luck, they were all things that could have been prevented by just anticipating them. That conversation was recorded a few years ago now when Jake worked with the guys at BT Sport on what we now know as TNT Sport. But listening back, what strikes me is how much of what they described, whether it's the fear, the media pressure, the lack of a tactical identity when players were sent off, or the disconnection between players. How much of that has actually changed? I'll tell you, I've shared many of these insights with the England coaching staff and they've taken into account some of the feedback that the players have shared and started to anticipate some of the same challenges. If you haven't already, please consider subscribing. It's a genuine help to us in being able to keep making fascinating conversations like this happen. As ever, thanks for being part of our high performance community. Look forward to catching up with you next time.

[Peter Crouch]

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[Joe Cole]

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[Rio Ferdinand]

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[Peter Crouch]

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[Rio Ferdinand]

topped with cold foam.

[Peter Crouch]

Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire six?

[Rio Ferdinand]

All new drinks are here. Try them all now.

[Peter Crouch]

At McDonald's.

[Rio Ferdinand]

Refreshers contain caffeine.

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