Why The Bravest Leaders Are Afraid All the Time | Brené Brown (E401)

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The High Performance Podcast – Episode 401: "Why The Bravest Leaders Are Afraid All the Time" with Brené Brown
Release Date: March 30, 2026
Hosts: Jake Humphrey & Damian Hughes
Guest: Dr. Brené Brown

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Overview: Main Theme

In this episode, renowned researcher and storyteller Dr. Brené Brown joins hosts Jake Humphrey and Damian Hughes to discuss the real roots of courage in leadership and high performance. Brown challenges the myth that courage is the absence of fear, arguing instead that the bravest leaders are those who navigate their fears, not eliminate them. The conversation dives into the metaphor of "armor" that we wear to protect ourselves, the transformative power of vulnerability (especially for men), navigating the "messy middle" of personal and organizational change, and the essential, often-overlooked role of self-awareness, coaching, and connection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Redefining Courage & Armor

• Courage is Not Fearlessness.
  • Brown dispels the idea that brave people are unafraid. Instead, courage is operating with fear and discomfort ("the bravest people I talked to were afraid all the time." – Brené Brown, 02:35).
• Armor as a Barrier.
  • We develop emotional "armor" to self-protect when afraid—perfectionism, micromanaging, stubborn decisiveness, etc.
  • Armor can begin as a useful coping skill but ultimately stifles growth, success, and authentic connection.

    "The developmental milestone of middle age is armor… I need you to take the armor off. You're a grown ass person. You have other tools." – Brené Brown, 06:10

2. The Importance of Self-Awareness & Coaching

• Continuous Self-Reflection.
  • Even experts need coaches. Brown shares how she still discovers ways her own strengths can become armor.
  • Self-awareness is labeled by Brown as the single most critical skill for future leaders.

    "The number one thing is self-awareness. If you can't manage yourself, you can't manage people." (10:51)

• Finding the Right Support & Accountability.
  • Coaches, mentors, therapists all play unique roles; for Brown, recommendations and value alignment are key ("word of mouth is really important," 12:10).
  • Coaching proactively addresses tough conversations—leaders must practice vulnerability and feedback (“before I sit down with you, I have role played that with my coach,” 09:17).

3. Vulnerability as a Performance Driver

• No Courage Without Vulnerability.
  • Vulnerability = uncertainty + risk + emotional exposure. Brown poses to tough audiences (like special forces and pro sports teams) the provocative challenge: Name a moment of courage that didn't require vulnerability.

    "There is no courage without vulnerability." – Brené Brown recounting a soldier’s conclusion, 32:35

• Trust & Vulnerability Unlock Performance.
  • Study after study shows vulnerability and trust are the key drivers of high-performing teams—not only “nice-to-haves.”
  • Building trust is a "slow stacking" process ("Trust is a marble jar… not by big moments, but a lot of little marbles in the jar over time." 31:10)
• Help-Seeking is Strength, Not Weakness.
  • Brown critiques cultural norms—especially among men—that view help-seeking as weak (“death by rugged individualism,” 18:25).
  • Both men and women contribute to shame around male vulnerability ("The number one shamer of men around vulnerability is not other men. It's women." 24:13).

4. Tools for Change: The ‘Above & Below the Line’ Model

• Navigating Fear Productively.
  • When consumed by fear (“below the line”), leaders fall into victim, hero, or villain roles—all unhelpful.
  • When aware but not ruled by fear (“above the line”), leaders can be coaches, co-creators, and productive challengers (43:25).
    • Example: Two senior leaders paused a heated feedback session when both recognized they were “under the line”; after 30 minutes, they reconvened for a truly courageous, corrective conversation. (46:41)

5. Transforming Culture: The Messy Middle

• Change is Never Linear.
  • The “messy middle” is defined by struggle and ambiguity. People try to solve problems without vulnerability, but true progress only comes after embracing it (55:57).
  • Real transformation is disruptive (“break everything”) and requires letting go of familiar but outdated ways of operating (60:01).

6. Vulnerability for Men, Loneliness & Connection

• Male Mental Health Crisis.
  • Even with more open conversation, statistics (like suicide rates) suggest many men still struggle to embrace vulnerability.
  • Brown encourages men (and supporters) to connect meaningfully—not just via social media, which is a communication, not a connection, tool (27:35).
• True Strength = Being Dependable.

  “To be the best of the best is to be not a hyper independent person, but to be a person on whom others can depend. That is. That's the top of us.” (22:44)

7. Practical Takeaways for Listeners

• What to Replace Armor With:
  • Don’t go "emotionally naked"; replace armor with grounded confidence—skills like self-awareness, emotional granularity, strategic and anticipatory thinking (39:12).
• First Steps:
  • Seek real connection—start a men's group, join a book club, have honest conversations. Seek professional help for deeper challenges if possible (25:43).
• The Critical “Unsaid Thing”
  • Performance breakthroughs come when teams address the unspoken, most vulnerable issues on the table (66:25).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The bravest people that we talked to were afraid all the time.” – Brené Brown (02:35)
• “You have a CEO who has prioritized winning over ego. They will rethink, relearn, redo, apologize, and change course in a heartbeat if it means winning.” – Brené Brown (09:19)
• “If you can't manage yourself, you can't manage people. And I don’t know anyone who’s got the skill to manage themselves without help.” (10:51)
• “No one has ever done a single brave thing in the world with no uncertainty or risk.” (31:10)
• “Courage is being a learner, not a knower… the future belongs to the curious and curiosity requires a ton of vulnerability and courage.” (77:10)
• “There is no high performance without high levels of self awareness. Know who you are if you want to perform.” (77:59)
• Surprise from Steven Gerrard (former Liverpool captain) addressing Brené directly, which brought genuine emotion and delight to the episode (75:21)
• “Show me a man who can sit with a woman and struggle and not try to fix it, but just listen. I'll show you a man who's done his work. Show me a woman who can sit with a man in real vulnerability and love it and love him and prize that as strength. I'll show you a woman who's done her work.” (24:13)

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Segment Timestamps for Key Topics

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |---------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:35 | Armor vs. courage, redefining bravery | | 05:14 | Premortem approach, decision-making as armor | | 09:17 | How leaders use coaching to prepare for tough conversations | | 10:51 | Self-awareness as future-proof leadership | | 13:11 | Coaching for everyday people, not just leaders | | 15:05 | "Potential minus interference" – Focus and the inner game | | 18:25 | Cultural stigma against asking for help | | 22:44 | Loneliness, true connection, being relied upon | | 24:13 | Gendered dynamics of vulnerability and shame | | 25:43 | How to find real connection and professional support | | 31:10 | Trust & vulnerability drive team performance | | 32:35 | There is no courage without vulnerability | | 43:25 | ‘Above and below the line’ model for managing leadership fear | | 46:41 | Real-life example: Pausing feedback until emotional awareness | | 55:57 | The ‘messy middle’ of transformation, Pixar’s influence | | 60:01 | “Break everything” story – radical change at Williams Racing | | 66:25 | Performance breakthrough comes from naming the unsaid | | 70:19 | Grief/focus issues in Liverpool’s football season | | 75:21 | Surprise Steven Gerrard greeting for Brené Brown | | 76:29 | Quick-fire: Brené’s top non-negotiables, best advice, etc. | | 77:59 | Final message: The secret to high performance – self-awareness |

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Language & Tone

The conversation is lively, warm, and honest, often punctuated with humour, directness, and real emotion. The tone is empowering—plain-speaking, candid, and encouraging critical introspection while also giving practical, actionable advice.

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Summary Takeaways

• Courage is not the absence of fear; it is learning to operate with and through fear by letting go of protective “armor.”
• Vulnerability is the essential ingredient for trust, transformation, and sustained performance—especially in leadership and teamwork.
• Help-seeking, coaching, and honest connections are not liabilities but requirements for anyone who wants to live and lead at a high level.
• For men in particular, the journey to vulnerability and connection is made harder by cultural stigma, but it is vital for well-being and peak performance.
• High performers are made, not born—what separates them is a willingness to sit with discomfort, seek support, and face 'the messy middle.'
• Self-awareness is absolutely foundational: “Know who you are if you want to perform.”

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Quick-Fire List: Brené Brown’s Non-Negotiables for High Performance (76:37)

• Sleep well
• Eat well
• Move well
• Connect well
• Love well

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Endnote:
This episode is a masterclass in emotional intelligence and authentic leadership, offering actionable frameworks, emotional wisdom, and a compelling call to embrace both vulnerability and accountability as the beating heart of true high performance.

Transcript

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[Brene Brown]

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[Brene Brown]

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[Brene Brown]

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[Damien]

Thanks very much for being here. Can I be so bold as to start with a line of yours that I think is powerful and important for our audience, which is the opposite of courage is armor. And I think so many people listening to this will not even understand that maybe they're living with a suit of armor. And then if they realize they are, I think they may well not have the courage to be able to take that Armor off. So what could we talk about now? To allow people who are living behind a suit of armor to finally let go of it.

[Brene Brown]

It's a powerful place to start because I think it's the underlying premise of all of my work. So when I first started researching courage, my hypothesis was, I call it daw daw, dead ass wrong. My hypothesis was that fear got in the way of us being BR with our lives, with work, sport. We really, if we face too much fear, we couldn't be brave. When I started the research, what I realized is the most courageous people I interviewed, whether it was a CEO or someone behind the pitch, or someone running their family, the bravest people that we talked to were afraid all the time. And in fact, one CEO told me when we were checking data, listen, if you're going to make a list of folks that you're going to call daring leaders and you're defining that as not being afraid, don't put me on your list. I'm afraid every day. And so I was like, shit, like what is, what's getting in the way? And the more we went back into the data, what we realized is to be afraid is to be human. What happens when we go into fear is that we often reach for armor to self protect. And we can get into this in a minute. But it's interesting about how this plays into age. So for me as a leader, I have arsenals, all kind of arsenals. I have my leadership arsenal where I keep my armor. I have my mom arsenal where I keep my armor. I've been with my husband for 40 years, I have that. But when I'm leading and I get afraid and I reach for my armor, I micromanage, my perfectionism gets ramped up. One of the things I just learned, and this is like, I've been doing this work for 30 years. I just learned six weeks ago that something I thought was a strength and can be at times is also armor for me. So I am very well known amongst my team for being incredibly decisive. And I have studied decision making. I studied a lot under Bob Iger and his idea of being both thoughtful and decisive. Right. So my coach and I were talking about something and she said, I wanna invite you. And you know, as soon as you hear that, you're like, not an invitation to be self reflective. Jesus. No. She's like, I wanna invite you to consider that sometimes your decisiveness is not smart, not strategic in a way that you're coping with anxiety.

[Jake]

Right.

[Brene Brown]

And you're making very fast decisions so you can Tap out of a level of uncertainty that none of us are really wired to handle, which is I'm like, that's my line, dude. Like, that's what I tell people. So I've been thinking about it a lot, especially because my team and I are running a lot of pre mortems now. So we'll sit in a room. For those of you not familiar with the concept, Gary Klein will sit in a room and we'll come up with a strategy or an idea. And then a pre mortem, as opposed to like postmortem. You're dead. How'd that happen? A pre mortem is it's six weeks or six months from now. This is completely failed. What do we think we'll be talking about? And when you run a pre mortem, you start with very divergent thinking. You'll say something wild, you'll say something wilder. And you have to have a real tolerance for divergent thinking before you get to, like, shared understanding of some of the big barriers that we should be talking about. So armor is the barrier. We reach for it. We all have our own arsenals. I think you know how babies have developmental milestones. I think the developmental milestone of middle age is armor. I think it's when the universe pulls you close by the shoulders, looks you dead ass in the eye, and says, you're getting close to dead. The armor's no longer serving. Like, serving. I think, yes, you needed this when you were young. Maybe you even needed it in your 30s, your kind of accomplishment and acquisition period. But this is killing you now, and it's dragging you around and it's preventing you from really growing into your gifts. I need you to take the armor off. You're a grown ass person. You have other tools. Take the armor off. And I think so. I think this is the work we would do with leaders, and it's painful.

[Jake]

So can I ask. There's two things that jumped out there, Brene. One, that you have a coach. I love hearing that, because I'd like to explore what your rationale was for recruiting and having a coach. But secondly, what was the armor then that your decisiveness was protecting?

[Brene Brown]

My decisiveness protects my discomfort of vulnerability and uncertainty. Like, if I just decide something, I don't have to stay in the vulnerability. You know, vulnerability by definition is uncertainty, risk, and exposure. If I can get really decisive, shut it down. We're pulling the money from that funding. Put that team on something new. I don't have to sit with the things that good leaders sit with. Paradox, complexity. I Don't have to sit with it. I can just decide and move on. So my overly decisiveness could be reckless. And as a founder, it's not like I report to anybody. And so I'm defaulting to too decisive, not thoughtful enough because the thinking is stressful. Leaders, organizational leaders are the only high performance people in the world. The only where coaching is not completely expected and mandated. Imagine supporting a football team that has no coaches. I mean like, you know, and so to me, I was just doing an interview with the Wall Street Journal with a CEO. We're in year three of a huge transformation and they are winning. I mean they are really winning by every performance metric. And someone said, I just don't understand how you do this. One in the audience was tech leaders in the audience. And I said, one, you have a CEO who has prioritized winning over ego. They will rethink, relearn and redo and apologize and change course in a heartbeat if it means winning. And two, her senior leadership, 200 senior leaders have amassed over 3,000 hours of coaching individually. And we don't have access to the coaching conversations for confidentiality reasons, but we do have an analysis of the topics and they are difficult feedback. Managing through change, performance feedback. We need help. If you worked for me and I had to give you some really tough feedback, you can be assured that before I sit down with you, I have role played that with my coach and you can be assured that she has said, you're being an asshole, you're not ready. I'm like, no, I gotta do this now. No, you don't. Because do you need this person? Yes. Does this person contribute a lot of value? A ton. Would you want to do this without this person? No. Can you win without him? No. Then you're not ready. I have a coach, I have a therapist. Cause coaching is not therapy. You know, like when it gets to family of origin stuff. And look, I've been to the uk, Y' all have these issues too, trust me. And I have a mentor. And the mentor really will sit down with me and help me go through strategy and talk about really serious like strategy issues, revenue issues, growth issues. But my coach, when I did the research for Strong Ground for the new book, I was asking a very specific question. What is the future of leadership? Again, I don't care what you're leading because I interviewed as many coaches as I. Probably more senior leaders than coaches, but a lot of coaches, a lot of athletes. What is the future and what is the skill set that we need to ready ourselves for the future of leading. And it was huge. It was a big. It was the hardest chapter I've ever written in my Life. It's an 80 page chapter that's broken down into little pieces, but at the very top of that, the thing that no matter what you know how to do, you will not win if you not in this environment, not today. The number one thing is self awareness. Do you know who you are when you walk out of a meeting or off the pitch or the oval you and you say to yourself, God, I was just a total asshole. What's going on? Can you answer that? Yeah, you know, and if you can't manage yourself, you can't manage people. And I don't know anyone who's got the skill to manage themselves without help.

[Jake]

So how do you recruit then? So when you're looking for a coach or a mentor, or as you say, even a therapist, what's the criteria you use to select somebody that you feel can raise your self awareness and help you?

[Brene Brown]

I mean, word of mouth is really important. So I usually get recommendations. So I think my mentor, my coach and my therapist all came from word of mouth. So people I trust and people with whom I probably share values. So I'm a social scientist, so I want someone who's research based. If you get super woohoo, I'm tapping out in a heartbeat. I'm like, no, we're not gonna do this. If you seem grift, like if you're trying to sell me something, I'm not gonna do that. I need someone for me who knows what they're doing, keeps up with the research and the literature, is tough and holds me accountable.

[Damien]

Right.

[Brene Brown]

You know, and my style of person probably wouldn't work for everyone. Probably makes some people squeamish. But I'm hard. I know it's hard to believe.

[Damien]

And does this same conversation apply to people who are not leading teams in work or leading teams in sport, but are leading a family at home?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. I mean, yeah. Like life is tough and people are not okay. Period. People are not okay. Y' all know that in order to be as successful as you are, you've gotta be tapped into the vibe in the world. People are not okay.

[Damien]

I think they're only listening to our podcast because they're not okay. They're coming to look for answers for problems in their life. Right. We're all selfish.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. Self motivated. Right? Yeah. So people are not okay. And I think this idea, I mean, I've been sober for 28 years and one of the Things that they say a lot in the program is to think the same thinking. I mean, Einstein said something similar about War and Peace, but to the same. To think the same thinking that landed me here can get me out. It's just not right. I need to be challenged about what's happening. I mean, I think you look at the. Okay, I mean, look at the UK penalty kit curse that happened for so long. Right. I mean, I hate to get personal, but here we are. Right. I know he made a sad face. If you're just listening. Who solved that? A kicking specialist? No. Pippa Grange, a psychologist.

[Jake]

Yep.

[Brene Brown]

That's who solved it. You had the best kickers. You know, some of the best kickers, some countries would dispute, but some of the best penalty kickers in the world. But it came down to the ability to manage anxiety and reset under pressure. You know, you look at Djokovic, you look at some of the, you know, Venus and Serena, you look at. Are y' all familiar with the book, the Inner Game?

[Jake]

Tim Galloway?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. I'm obsessed, and I use it a lot when I work with leaders. So kind of the heart of the book, for me, anyway, is the formula that performance equals potential minus interference.

[Jake]

Yep.

[Brene Brown]

So I'm a very. I'm an ex competitive swimmer, ex tennis player, pickleball player, and I'm super competitive. And what I've realized is I can continue to skill up, which is potential. But the biggest problem I have on the court is interference. Like, if you clearly. If you call a ball out that was clearly in, I'm gonna lose. Even if I'm a point away from winning, I'm gonna become so distracted by that shitty call that you made.

[Jake]

Yep.

[Brene Brown]

That, or even if you're across from me and I don't like the way you're treating your partner, I won't be able to get over it. Like, focus is my problem.

[Jake]

Okay.

[Brene Brown]

Do you know what I mean? Like, I can't. So I think when we talk about this incredible inner game formula and that there's two games going on, no matter if you're watching center court at Wimbledon, if you're watching my beloved Liverpool, if you're watching, you know, the Eagles, the University of Texas Longhorns, hook em. It doesn't matter who you're watching, at some point, you're gonna have to ask yourself as a coach, do I have a potential problem or do I have an interference problem? And if you have an interference problem, not the game that you can see, not like poor defense against set pieces, but a real interference problem, A skills athletic coach is not trained to deal with that. That requires someone from sports psychology. That requires, you know, that requires a different kind of coach. And that's what I'm talking about. If you look at the super bowl, the Chiefs played the Eagles, the Chiefs were going for a three peat against the Eagles. But like if you had a tape recorder underneath the Eagles bench and you had a tape recorder underneath the Chief's bench, I guarantee you, if you would have recorded what was happening on the sidelines and did a qualitative or quantitative analysis on it, you would have heard the absolute difference between playing to win and playing not to lose. The Chiefs were playing not to lose. You get into negative emotional contagion, rumination. You can't let go. It's like, what are we doing? What are we, we fucking? We're sucking. What are you doing, man? Watch your ball handling. Why'd you turn over the goddamn ball? You know, that's what you would have heard. But I think if you looked at the Eagles, if you listen to the Eagles sideline, we've got this. We were trained for this. We know how to do this. Reset. Back to basics. Come on. Back to basics. We know this. Hold the line. Back to basics. Like that rumination. Djokovic will talk about how kind of mindfulness and self compassion, really, you make a mistake and you say I made a mistake. I made it because I'm human. That's hard. Let it go. Ready for the next point? But that's what coaching is. I hate how pathologized help seeking is.

[Jake]

Why do you think that is the case?

[Brene Brown]

It's this kind of male dominated thinking that help is weakness, that asking for help is weakness, and that, you know, I'm a fifth generation Texan, so we know this very well. It's like death by rugged individualism. Yeah. You know, I can go it alone. Like, what are you, white snake? Like, you know, like you can't go it alone. Like, here I go again on my own, walking down the only path. You know, like, no, that's romantic for 30 seconds and then you're just an asshole.

[Damien]

I feel like since I was me, I'm now, What am I, 47? It definitely wasn't spoken about when we were at school. Right? It just wasn't.

[Brene Brown]

No, no, no.

[Damien]

But for the last 10 or 15 years, I think male mental health has been spoken about loads. Male vulnerability's been discussed all the time. We keep telling each other men are talking more. Yet we have this conversation against a backdrop of the most likely thing to kill Damien and I, as a man under 50 in the UK is suicide.

[Brene Brown]

Right?

[Damien]

That's. That remains a fact. 20% of young people in the UK are suffering a probable mental health disorder. Like, it's. There are issues starting young and remaining here. Why have we as men not been able to unpick this, this vulnerability problem? I feel like this entire podcast for six years has sat here and tried to tell men to open up and to share, and it's not weakness. And that, like joy can be found on the other side of vulnerability, yet men are still taking their own lives at an alarming rate. Like, what more needs to be said? Or is this just totally unsolvable?

[Brene Brown]

Well, I'm going to start by saying I don't think it's unsolvable, but then I'm going to follow that very quickly by saying I am not an expert in death by suicide or a lot of the factors that attribute to that. So I want to be really careful because one thing that I have found that's increasingly scary for me is, on the one hand, I'm so grateful for podcasts like yours, and it's one of the reasons why I wanted to come on it. I think you have a lot of important, deep and resonant and critically important messaging. And two, I think a lot of people, especially in the US have turned a lot of this self help into a grift and are talking outside of their areas of expertise. So I want to be really clear that I don't have a level of expert, I don't have any expertise in. And it's a very serious issue. And the variables contributing to suicidal ideation, thinking about it, or are complex. From a macro perspective, I believe that we're making headway when the culture turns against what's happening. So, for example, in the US you have political leadership that absolutely exemplifies toxic, like toxic masculinity, right? Where there's an active campaign to vilify empathy. They're systemically removing brilliant black women from the workforce in the U.S. they're trying to, you know, they're trying to get us back into the kitchen barefoot and pregnant. Like, this is really happening right now, I think much more so in our country than it is yours. What that tells me is when people are, when people are acting like that, it tells me on a micro or a macro level exactly what you're afraid of, right? When you act like that, you're telling me exactly what you're afraid of. To me, that means we're getting closer, we're getting closer and closer. And I think we need to not be dissuaded. These conversations matter. Yeah. Talking to. I mean, I think partially what's happening with loneliness. And this I have studied is John Cacioppo at Chicago was a loneliness researcher. He died a couple years ago. I want to make sure you can share the link to his TED Talk with the podcast notes.

[Damien]

We can do that if people hit the link at the bottom in the description.

[Brene Brown]

It's really powerful because he's the one who kind of pulled all the research together that talked about loneliness is more deadly than smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. You know, you know, kind of things like that. But one of the things that he said to me or not to me, he said, I felt like it was to me, but it wasn't. I didn't know him. But I quote his research a lot is that because we're a social species, what it means to be the best of the best is to be not a hyper independent person, but to be a person on whom others can depend. That is. That's the top of us. That's why people weep when they watch TED Lasso. That's why people love the anti hero. That's why. So we have in our minds told ourselves to need no one, to want nothing. That's what it means. But as a social species, we die when that happens. And then to become a person on whom others can depend, that's what it means to me to be a good man.

[Damien]

Is that really what you're saying? If there are. If there are. You know, we do have a lot of male listeners to this show. If there are men listening to this who do feel that they're in a place of loneliness.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Damien]

Your recommendation is for them to connect. To connect somewhere, just to connect.

[Brene Brown]

You find that so hard as men because the armor. Because if you see me, I'm not lovable. If you see me and you know me and let me tell you something, let me just say something super hard. The number one shamer of men around vulnerability is not other men. It's women. It's women who say, because we too were brought up in an environment of what you're supposed to look like and act like and be like. And so we all have. Show me a man who can sit with a woman and struggle and not try to fix it. But just listen. I'll show you a guy who's done his work. Show me a woman who can sit with a man in real vulnerability and love it and love him and prize that as strength. I'll show you a woman who's done her work.

[Damien]

You're so fucking wise.

[Brene Brown]

No, I don't know about that.

[Jake]

But there's a brilliant line in your book, Brennan, that I've quoted to so many people about that. There's no app for transformation.

[Brene Brown]

No.

[Jake]

Because we're in this fast moving, like, what's the solution now?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jake]

So if there's somebody listening to this that's like, I need to do the work, what's the first step?

[Brene Brown]

I mean, first of all, I don't know enough about the NHS here. What I would say is it's become a point. The healthcare is so shitty in the US right now that it's hard to do your work. Cause a lot of it's not covered by insurance. But I would say, you know, if you can find a coach or a therapist, they're different. And I would think of it just very, like, crudely. A coach is gonna help you set goals, help you get to them, help you understand what's getting in the way. If you've got family of origin, work you need to do, like mom and dad raised, I think we need both. That's probably more of therapy. Not a lot of coaches go into like, or probably should not, are not trained to go into trauma recovery, those kind of things. So you've got coaching, goal setting. I want something different and that can be super helpful. And enough therapy. Something different. I love group work. Like join a men's group, hang out with your buddies. When you're with your buddies, have a real conversation, do a book club. That's an interesting book by a tough guy who's honest. Whatever your gateway drug into vulnerability needs to be, I think that's it. The other thing I would say is social media is incredibly dangerous. We have to remember that. Like Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, whatever your drug of choice is. These are not connection tools, these are communication tools. You may be able to communicate with old friends, but if you want to connect with them, that feels and looks different. They're communication tools, not connection tools. And there's a real difference there. So, for example, if I lose my job and I go onto LinkedIn or Instagram and say, lost my job today. It takes zero vulnerability for someone to say, that's really tough, mate. I'm wishing you the best. But imagine if I called you and you said, first of all, you're gonna be like, why is someone calling me? Someone dead? Because I'm not texting you. You're gonna be like, hello. Hey, do you have a minute? What's up? Everything okay? I mean, everything. I'm okay, but I lost my job today, and I'm in deep struggle. I. Let's say I'm a guy or a woman. I don't even want to tell my partner. My wife, she's going to panic, and I'm going to have to take care of her through this because, you know, she's pregnant, and now I don't have a job, and I can't even take care of me through this right now. So I'm gonna have to talk to her. And I'm just. I just need someone to talk to. Do you know the courage it takes to do that? And if the first line back from another guy could be, dude, it's a brave call. I'm so fucking glad you made it. I'm in the middle of a meeting right now. I just stepped out. I will be out of here in two hours. Can we meet wherever? Can we meet for dinner? Can we meet here? Can we grab a pint? Whatever it is, not 12 pints, because that's not helpful. But, like. And that's an issue here, but, you know, or if you work for me and you come to me, I'm like, hey, everything okay? And you're like, not really. My wife had a miscarriage yesterday, and my first comment is, jesus, that's hard. And I'm so grateful you told me. Thank you for sharing that with me. And then I just simply say, what does support for me look like today?

[Damien]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

And you say, you know, I know we got this big deadline, and I feel like I can be here for, you know, and get it done. I'd love to be able to check out early. Absolutely. How comfortable are you letting the team know? I'm not comfortable at all. Okay, let me just tell the team that you're gonna be here for the next couple hours. We're gonna wrap up this, and you're gonna be taking the day. But again, I appreciate the courage to tell me, and I'm here to support.

[Jake]

And what do you find happens? Cause I think people want to know. That's the first step. What are the consequences once you come with that vulnerability and you greet it with that understanding and empathy?

[Brene Brown]

Well, first of all. First of all, we know from every study done over the last 15 years that trust and vulnerability are the primary drivers of performance in teams. They're not the primary. Trust and vulnerability are not the primary drivers of a good culture on a team. They're the primary drivers of performance on a team. Okay, so if you're listening, going, what kind of bullshit is this? What about performance? Performance, Performance? Okay, so one thing it's doing is it's building trust in this team. It's building trust between you and your manager and your leader. And the thing is, I wouldn't say that to anybody. I would say that to someone who I believe has earned the right to hear it. There are a lot of people that get to work every day. I mean, I think 80% of people die never having experienced a great leader on the field or in the office. Why? Because people need coaches and people need to do their work. I mean, that's why. But if I've seen a glimpse of you, that I know you have a capacity for this, you're gonna see me as a human being. And let me tell you this. We use. I just did Diary of a CEO Stephen Bartlett, and he brought out this marble jar. And it's like. It's the metaphor we use for trust. Trust is a marble jar. And. And it's. You gain trust not by big moments, but like a lot of little marbles in the jar over time. If you have marbles in the jar with me and I have them with you, I can share this. I mean, vulnerability and trust, slow stacking. It's not like, hey, second day on the job, just want to let you know, partner had a miscarriage. I'm holding back tears, like, I don't know you yet. I don't know if you're going to use it against me. I don't know if you're going to tell people. I'm going to be careful, so trust your gut. But no one has ever done a single brave thing in the world with no uncertainty or risk. That's the. I mean, when I used to. I used to really struggle teaching vulnerability to leaders. Until one day I was working with Special Forces in the US And I was standing in front of them. They had all had multiple deployments. And I said, you know, and they kind of were looking at me like, why is the vulnerability lady here? And I said, you know, the definition of vulnerability is uncertainty, risk, and exposure. The emotion vulnerability. I feel vulnerable is when we feel uncertain or at risk or exposed. I said, can anyone in this room, theoretically, some of the bravest people in the world. Can anyone in this room give me an example of courage that doesn't require vulnerability? And it was one of those quiet periods. It was 30 seconds, but felt like a lifetime. And then all of a sudden, heads started to drop into hands, and people started moving and getting very physically uncomfortable. And one kid stood up and said, three tours. There is no courage without vulnerability. The very next week I was with the Seattle Seahawks. Pete Carroll was still the coach. And I asked the team, the players, give me an example of courage on or off the field that doesn't require vulnerability. And of course they were like, can we huddle up? And I was like, huddle up. So they kind of got together and they came back and they were like, no, there is no courage. There's no courage without vulnerability. And these are 350 pound guys who could lay the three of us flat in under four seconds. Like, these are guys, right? But there is no courage without vulnerability. And so somehow we have all been raised to be brave and taught not to be vulnerable. Yeah, that calculus does not work. If you think you're being brave and there's no risk or uncertainty, you're not being brave. Hard stock.

[Damien]

We'll be right back after a quick word from our partners.

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[Brene Brown]

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[Brene Brown]

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[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Brene Brown]

Hey.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Brene Brown]

easily find shows that talk about health and fitness.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Damien]

I think it's such an important and powerful message for people. And I think about, like you and I have done this podcast for six years, right? And I still think we are two guys that wear armor, don't you?

[Jake]

Oh, massively, yeah, definitely.

[Damien]

And I tell you one thing that I think is interesting is I, like, I come from a world where I was a kids TV presenter before, right? If you're going to present kids TV for a living, you actually do need to wear some armor because that is an embarrassing job at times. But you are like a. You're like an expert in mindset and behaviors. You work with the biggest sports teams in the world. But still, as you've just said, wear armor. Which I think shows how difficult it is to not. To not have a suit of armor.

[Jake]

I think you're better at dropping the armor, making yourself vulnerable than I am. I think I hide behind it.

[Damien]

Why though?

[Jake]

Favour, Judgment. I grew up in a boxing gym, so fear was very real in that environment. But being too confident, too sure of yourself, showing off, you'd soon get knocked down from it. So physically, yeah. And emotionally. So the idea of not blowing your own trumpet, the idea of not trying to get too high on your own.

[Damien]

But you're not in the boxing gym anymore, are you? No, no, no.

[Jake]

But it's a lesson of life. It's a survival tool.

[Brene Brown]

And I would also say as someone who's academically trained, we're taught that, like, if you're gonna go in and work for coaches, you better go armored up. Cause if they sense weakness, even if their whole. All your work with them is without vulnerability, right? Like, if I'm gonna go work with a coach, let's say I'm gonna go work with Arnie Slott. I have to be tough. Like, even if I'm gonna not end up talking about football at all, I'm gonna be talking about the folks on the pitch, right? The players. I've got to be tough. I got to be armored up. I got to prep for hours and hours. Even though I'm going to try to move the conversation from running a 4, 3, 3. To how are we grieving the death of this player? It doesn't matter. I've got to go in. So I think one of the things that's interesting about the new research is the question is. And listening to the podcast, when we vetted y'. All, because y' all went through a tough vet process on our end. Because sometimes I can get on a guy's podcast and it can be. It can be shitty. Right. And so. Especially if it's got a sports bend.

[Damien]

Yeah. And if it's two guys as well.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. I mean, again, outrun you in a foot race. But I am wearing cowboy boots.

[Damien]

Can't wait for this race.

[Jake]

Of course you're wearing cowboy boots.

[Damien]

You're a Texan.

[Brene Brown]

I won't be able to outrun you, but I can manipulate you into thinking it starts in a different place, where I'm gonna be or something.

[Damien]

You'll break down my armor, leave me crying on the. The pavement, and just run 100 yards down the road.

[Brene Brown]

I could make you cry. Yeah. But I think you're both in the vet. I think you're both. Not that it matters, but I think you're both a very good balance of strength and vulnerability. And I think that paradox is what's hard for people to hold. So the question becomes, if you're going to take off your armor, any of us. And I'm also often the only woman in a room. The number of locker rooms I've been in is obscene. Like, put some clothes on, dudes. It's different at this age. Cause I'm like, pick up your stuff. But what do we replace the armor with? Are we gonna go streaking naked through the world? No, because the world is not a safe place. Right. It's not a safe place. So the question becomes, what do we replace the armor with? And I think what we replace it with is this skill set that I'm calling grounded confidence in the new. And it's a very robust skill and mindset collection that includes things like self awareness, emotional granularity, anticipatory thinking, strategic thinking. Like, we are gonna be. If you wanna. This is what's happening. I've never talked about this publicly, but I'm just gonna go right now. We talk about the crisis with men right now. And in the US the brocasters are talking about. Well, it's. And just. There's a heated thing going on right now, too, with Diary of a CEO. Like, women don't Women don't want to get married, women don't want to have babies. Men are falling behind academically in university. I come maybe from a different perspective on it because I have a son and a daughter. And what I would say is just like being just like. Coming to terms with some privilege around whiteness is really tough. I think coming to terms with some privilege around what it means to be a guy, just things where like I really like would stop my daughter multiple times at the shopping mall and say, stop. Just look at me, who's behind me, who's next to us, what cars are in the parking lot right now. You know, just things like that. That, yes, to some degree with my son. But you have to raise a daughter carefully in the world, right? But you have to raise a son carefully in the world too. And if we're asking people to be more vulnerable, the question becomes, okay, I'll take off the armor. What am I going to replace it with? So for example, if I were to tell I gave a commencement address and I said lastly, stop ghosting people. It's chicken shit, it's cheap, it's chicken shit and it's easy. I wish I wouldn't have said it. And I'll tell you why. Because I didn't have time in a commencement address to teach them the skills to not have to do that, to teach them how to do the text that says, I really appreciated. I mean, let's be honest, I really, you know, I know we hooked up last week. I'm sorry if I was not clear. I'm not interested in a relationship and I wanna be really upfront with you out of respect. That's it. But if we say don't ghost and then we don't teach the skills that replace the armor, how do we do it if we tell guys, be vulnerable. Do you know how long it takes me to teach a 50 year old senior leader with 30 years of tenure how to have a difficult conversation without being a dick? Months. Months. How to have a kind, respectful, straight shooting, straightforward, hard conversation. It is a skill set.

[Jake]

But give us a quick synopsis then on what that skill set requires for anyone listening to this and what do they do?

[Damien]

Like what is being a dick?

[Brene Brown]

Well, I'm going to give you, I'll give you an example. So here's a really great takeaway for the people watching or listening. One of the greatest coaching tools that has ever come my way in my whole life. It's changed my life as a leader, as a mom, as a partner, as a Friend is it comes from Robert Kawasaki, went to Carolyn Taylor, and then went to the conscious leadership group. And it's above and below the line. This has changed more lives of work we've done than I think anything we've done besides reframing armor and fear. So here's the line, and the line is fear. And when you're above the line, you're in some fear, but you're driving, you're aware that you're in fear. You can say, shit, I'm fearful right now. This is tough. When you're below the line, you're in fear, but you are not driving. You're not even riding shotgun. You are hogtied in the trunk, and fear is at the wheel. And fear is driving. We take on one of three kind of Personas when we're under the line. And this is from the drama triangle. We come victim, victim, villain, or hero. So if I am, if something's going on at work, someone's made a mistake, let's say in my job, that's publicly facing hard, because I am the publicly facing person, you know, And I go under the line and I go into victim mode. I say, no one understands how hard this is for me. You don't understand how hard this is for me because Yalls name is not out there. No one's tweeting acmebrick. They're like, fuck Brene Brown on Twitter. Like, you don't understand how hard this is for me. Very victim. Or I get into hero mode. You know what? I'll do it myself. If I want this done well, I'll just do it myself. Hero or a villain, I don't give a shit whether you like it or not. Here's what it is. Everything's triple checked. Everything's signed off. I see a sign off before it happens. Are we clear? Are we crystal clear. So very familiar, right? Yeah, Very, very familiar. So hero, victim, villain, none of those are helpful. Because we're under the line, on top of the line. We're in fear. But because we can name it and we know we're in it, we go into one of three roles. Coach, co creator, productive, challenger. These are great roles, right? A coach. Okay, I know y' all care deeply about the work. Let's walk through how that happened and see if we can find a glitch in the system. Because I make up. This was not about not caring. But there's a systemic issue we need to address. Let's co create a solution. Let me challenge the systems y' all are using right now, you know, so these are effective ways. So we were working with a senior leadership group, global company, publicly traded big company. And there was a guy who. When you walk into a room as a facilitator, you immediately know who's going to be hard. Like, I would look at you two and probably be like, they're a soft touch. No, I wouldn't be a soft touch. I'd be. Actually, I'd probably pay y' all as helpful to me. Tough.

[Steven Gerrard]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

But also open to learning, curious. And if people see y' all going, they'll go. You know what I mean? But there are people I walk in that I'm like, this guy's gonna be tough, and this woman's gonna be like this. They got their. You know, they got their hands folded across their chest, and they're, like, rolling their eyes. And this one was one of those guys. Well, about four or five months into our training, he said, I'd like to share something. We were on a big teams call with all the senior leaders, and these are direct reports of the C suite. I'd like to share an experience of the above and below the line protocol. I was like, we don't call it that, but okay. I was like, oh, God, okay. And he said, I was giving very difficult feedback. And this guy's in. This Guy's probably over $4 billion in revenue of a company. Like, he probably in his organization, within the company, probably has 10,000 people, you know? And he said, so I was given some really hard feedback, and I was angry, as angry as I've ever been. And I got about 10 minutes into the conversation. I said, I am officially under the line. I will need to. The protocol says I'll need to postpone our conversation until I'm reflective about why I'm under the line. So we shall postpone from this one moment, you know? And the guy he was talking to, I am also completely under the line. And he said, I believe the protocol says that we take time out, we understand what's happening. We'll circle back in 30 minutes. So they came back together, and he said, this is how. I think I went under the line. The guy said, this is how they had this incredibly meaningful corrective feedback conversation where they both took some accountability about what was going on. I don't think he was clear with expectations. I think the other guy made a lot of assumptions, and they didn't share. They were working off different data. Different. You know, they were working on different data. And so, interestingly, the guy, he was giving feedback to was on the call and said, I'm just going to say that I was the guy receiving the tough feedback. And in 25 years with this company, it was the most courageous act of leadership I've ever seen. I would follow this guy into a fire. Wow. If he's willing to do this, there's nothing I'm not willing to do for him.

[Jake]

That's incredible.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. And so just the ability. But that's a fricking skill, man. That's like. Like. Here's an example from the pitch that I think is that I've been using a lot. Have you ever seen five year olds play soccer?

[Damien]

Oh, yeah. We've both had five year olds that play soccer.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. Same, same. Both my kids.

[Damien]

Yeah. Like flies around a honey pot. Follow the ball.

[Brene Brown]

The bee. The beehive. Right? Yeah. And it's really funny. Cause at least in te. First of all, you're paying, like 100 bucks for this. And your kids are, like, sitting crisscross applesauce on the ground, making a chain of daisies. Yet there's always gonna be three or four fathers that are like, this is your house. Protect your house. And the kids are like. And the aunt's on the farm are, you know, like. It's like. And the dads are, like, working out all their unprocessed shit. And the moms, for sure, the moms are. Oh, yeah, the moms are definitely.

[Damien]

You should hear my wife at a sports event.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, yeah. No, Like, I was raised by a father who was, like, removed from sporting events. But what was really funny is that when he came to see my kids play and I was scared to death, and I had to have a call with my. I'm like, my dad's coming. He's like, this guy. Like, people felt sorry for me and my. You know, we were all athletes because my dad was so rough. And so the whistle blows and my kids start. And he's like, sis. He calls me sis. Sis, I want to see you for a second. And I'm like, here we go. I was like, this is it. Steve's like, remain calm. And I was like, yes, dad. And he's like, I don't like the pressure these kids are under. This is horseshit. And I was like, what? And he goes, I'm not going to

[Jake]

have any of these.

[Brene Brown]

Stop the parents from yelling right now. These are young children trying to grow developmentally. I was like, dude, they put you in parent jail at our games. Like, who are you? I think there's supposed to be something restorative and healing when you see your parents do that. But I was like, fuck you, dude. Like what is. No, but anyway, so the pitch and the five year old. So what happens when a high ball comes into a five year old, like over the shoulder, they lift their leg up and try to make contact with the ball over their shoulder with their foot, they fall over and this happens until about you know, 10, 11, 12, depending on what kind of how serious the soccer training is that they're getting, right? Then what happens is they see a high ball coming in, they anticipate the high ball, they have learned chest control, they come up, they take the ball in the chest, the ball drops, they put their foot on the ball to maintain possession. Because it's a game of possession, right? They got their foot on the ball, they look down the pitch, they see where the striker is. They don't kick it to the striker, they kick it to where the striker is going to be in two seconds based on where the goalie is in the cage. I mean if you unfold that is situational awareness, anticipatory awareness, temporal awareness, systems thinking, trust. Like there are huge skill sets going on there. And so this is what I mean by grounded confidence. You want people to take off armor, start skilling people up. And the first thing you have to do, I think with men specifically is to tell them you don't know everything you're going to need to know to win. You don't, you are not birthed into this world because of your gender. As a pre wired winner. You two will need to work for it, skill up for it. Have, you know, take 14 chess balls and lose 13 of them, lose possession trying to get that ball under your foot from your chest.

[Damien]

I remember I used to host Premier League and Champions League football in the uk. Before that I worked in Formula one. Oh, you know this? I remember. I think it was my second or third live Premier League game ever. Michael Owen, former Liverpool player, was on co comms. I was the presenter and during the game we would sit and watch the match in the stand. So I was sitting there with a couple of other people and it was, it was like I was so close to what was going on. And the ball dropped to possibly Steven Gerrard and he, as quick as the flash, looked up, saw whoever the striker was at the time at Liverpool and oh my goodness, kicked the ball so hard at this striker that it would have taken our heads off. The person, took it on their chest, spanned the defender, moved it forwards with their right foot, looked up, missed the goal by about an inch. And Michael Owen on commentary goes, he'd be disappointed with that.

[Jake]

And I'm like, this is at a

[Damien]

level that I can't. And it happened. It was so fast I could hardly see it happen. It was like my eyesight had gone blurring, Right. And that was the time when I thought, thought the level that these people are operating at is not you, you. This nonsense that we see all the time. Oh, they were born to play football, they were born to. To dance, they were born to act. High performance are made. They're not born right. And I. And I wonder whether that's why you love the sports analogies and talking about sport as much as you do, because you see these people that have forced themselves to be the best that they can be. This is not by accident.

[Brene Brown]

No. And I think it's like sport is leadership, theater in real time. So in four, you know, I can watch two quarters of football and see exactly how strategy, training, operational excellence, the ability and capacity to reset teamwork. I can see how it, you know, what I have to do, like sit in an organization for like four years, like with a camera on my head, like, no, you can see. We have so much to learn from sport. And I think as organizations and the world increase in complexity, there's even more transferability of skills. I think this is an interesting. Well, an F1.

[Damien]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

Like, I'm a big F1 fan.

[Damien]

My world. Yeah, me too.

[Brene Brown]

I'm a Williams racing fan.

[Jake]

Can I tell you though, Bennett, that I'm lucky enough to work in sort of sport with elite sports and I quote and attribute you a lot. And I'll tell you, the one that resonates when I speak about Yuta in these sort of dressing rooms and boardrooms is the messy middle.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, yeah.

[Jake]

So I often refer to it as, you know, the Rosberg Moss cancer, the cancer's law, that everything looks like a failure in the middle. And I say, but Brene calls it the messy middle, which resonates. Would you tell. And I always, I don't think I've failed to get people that go, I recognise that and want to explore it. So this does resonate in sport. It does carry on. But would you explain to our listeners and our viewers what is the messy middle and how we navigate our way through it?

[Brene Brown]

So what's interesting about this is, boy, I learned so much. My mom was a big Joseph Campbell person, so I kind of rolled my eyes a lot growing up, like, oh, my God, my mom and Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell and You know, and now she died a couple years ago. But I think about her all the time, about how great. I wouldn't. She's part of the through line to the story about why I'm sitting here, you know. But I'll tell you what's interesting. I did a lot of work with Pixar, right? And I thought I knew a lot about storytelling until you work with Pixar, right? And one of the things that's really interesting that people don't talk about and this could be very helpful for your work about the messy middle is in the three act story, right, that everyone has, you know, Katniss, it doesn't matter what hero you're looking at. So act one of a three act story is they give you the land that you're living in, so you start to understand. So I'll use Harry Potter as an example because it's ubiquitous. We understand that there are wizards and Muggles. We understand that Harry's parents are gone. We understand we're starting to learn about the rules of the land. You know, there's Hogwarts and there's this. The end of Act 1, there's always an inciting incident, like a real problem comes the thing about the messy middle and act two. And I was actually brought into Pixar to help them work through an Act 2 of one of their films. The thing about Act 2 that is so interesting through the history of story across culture is our protagonist, our hero will try to solve the problem by any means that does not include vulnerability. So if you want to know why people slide back to one is because you cannot make it through the messy middle without vulnerability. People think it's just fight. And people are like, I got a lot of fight in me. The real challenge to Act 2 and the only way to solve the entire problem of the journey is with absolute vulnerability. Harry must understand that without Ron and Hermione, he is nothing without asking for help. He is nothing without facing his grief, he can't win. So all of act two is the fight of rejecting vulnerability to win. And the very end of Act 2 is the acceptance of vulnerability as a key to winning the fight.

[Jake]

Love that. Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

I mean, let me ask you this. If you were betting people, would you bet even if it wasn't money, but would you bet on a team? Okay, let's say you have two teams. You have a team. I'm going to use American football. You have a team that has two. Two guys on the defensive line are out and you've got a backup Quarterback, you've got the exact same injuries on the other team, but they're not acknowledging them. They're just letting hurt players play. I would never always the first team acknowledge the vulnerability. Trained up some people to put them on the line, you know, that's why the messy middle in transformation. One of the things I talk about a lot is. And Voyles Williams Racing is a great example. Like, I play a podcast when I'm in front of senior leaders of him.

[Jake]

Do you?

[Brene Brown]

Oh, yeah, I do.

[Damien]

Cause he said our podcast with him or someone else's?

[Brene Brown]

No, someone else's podcast with him. I don't know. I don't think it's him because I only see him. Was it you? Yeah. Was it y'? All?

[Jake]

We were looking up to interview when he first went in, and he said, break everything.

[Brene Brown]

Break everything That y'.

[Jake]

All.

[Damien]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

Holy shit.

[Jake]

There's a full circle moment there. Coming around.

[Brene Brown]

No, wait. There's no such thing as synchronicity. Well, this is like. This is like a total, for me is like a godwink.

[Damien]

Please listen to the full episode on your flight back to the US with him. It was amazing.

[Brene Brown]

I only say so. I mean, like, literally, if you looked on my laptop right now, it'll be. It's in my deck. Break everything. Because I was like, I took like, six years of French and I was like, do you really say carte blanche like he did? He's very posh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, no, really, they have carte blanche from me. Like, then he goes back. But, yeah, on that podcast, I don't care about 24. I don't care about 25. I don't care. You know? I mean, I know the whole thing. Cause by heart, break everything, you know? And so can I just say one thing?

[Damien]

Our producer spoke with your team yesterday and said Brene has got an amazing story about transformation in Formula one. We don't know what it is, but let's find out. And now we find out. It's the story.

[Brene Brown]

It's you.

[Damien]

It's our own conversation.

[Brene Brown]

You're the story.

[Jake]

Well, steal with pride.

[Brene Brown]

You're like the TikTok thing. Is this play about me?

[Damien]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

Yes. I miss plays about y'. All. I love this.

[Jake]

Oh, my God.

[Brene Brown]

No. Yeah. So it was. And then, of course, finished fifth in the constructive. Yeah.

[Jake]

So.

[Brene Brown]

But I. So this goes back to the messy middle. So I play this when I talk about transformation, because you're going to have to break some shit for real. Transformation. First of all, in organizational context, Transformation is very overused as a term which drives transformation fatigue. If everything's transformation, then nothing's transformation, right? Sometimes it's just strategic change, adaptive change, incremental change. Not sexy, but we should call it what it is. Transformation requires breaking, right? It just requires breaking. Then this is a Cue Yalls podcast. As I play this and what I say about the messy middle is breaking is hard because you have to break. At the same time, you protect things that you never want to break. And making those decisions will be clear to some and not clear to others. It'll cause a lot of hostility. And it did in Williams Racing. Like the breaking and not caring and the experimental stuff was probably hard for a lot of their folks. I mean. Cause if you attribute their wins, their fifth place finish, I mean, you had the car, Carlos and Alex, you had some interesting engineering changes, right? But really what you really had was high level experimentation and breaking. The reason why the middle is messy is because I always say in transformation, you're going from the to. To the womb. Something is dying. Old ways of working, old mental models, old mindsets are dying. And then there's the womb and new things are being birthed. Right? The thing about the tomb and the womb is those are both dark places. And you're not sure whether you're in the tomb or the womb because there's no twinkle lights or anything. That shit's just dark. Having given birth, I can tell you that there's some darkness in here. I mean, not in darkness as in, like negative, but like, what's happening right now to my body. This is like an alien movie. And circles, circle back, circle it just. Just for all the men listening, that shit circles back.

[Damien]

Oh, yeah.

[Brene Brown]

And does it again at menopause. So just look. If you're dating anyone over 40, we're there.

[Damien]

We're in the trenches.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah, yeah, Just look. That's real. If these bodies can make babies, they can do all kinds of crazy shit.

[Damien]

Our first word every morning we wake up is we turn to our wives and say, I'm sorry for whatever I've done.

[Brene Brown]

That is an amazing way to start. And also if you need it to be like below zero in the house right now, like, poor Steve. My husband was, like, sleeping wait. I was like, you're making too much noise. And he's like, because I'm in a fucking sleeping bag that has zippers on it. And I've got a hand warmer that hunters use. I'm like, and. And this is the way I love it. This is how I always Pictured it.

[Jake]

That's what I thought with Steve,

[Brene Brown]

but that's real. Yeah. And let me just tell you, I just want to go on record since. Am I the first person to talk about menopause on your podcast?

[Damien]

I think you're up there. Yeah. But we need to have more of these conversations.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. So here we go. I'm just going to say if at between 40 and 50, your balls shrinked and your penises fell off, there would be a lot of investment in fixing that. Billions and billions and billions of dollars. It's the biggest disaster in medical history. And so, yeah, just know that it's real and. And that we don't like, talk. And I saw a commercial. Cause I was watching old people tv. I was watching like, I don't know, like NCIS or something on the BBC or something. And there's like a commercial for old people. Cause it's like a lot of like, women probably my age, but they're like, it's not the menopause. Let's not call. It's just menopause. There's no the. It's not like the Google. Are you on the Facebook? No, that's like, it's just menopause, but it's real and it's really hard. And usually you hit it right when you've got teens in the house.

[Jake]

Like, I'll tell you what surprises me is like, how much information you have to search out for yourself.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Jake]

You know, like, I sometimes wonder, you know, like, you go to the garage and you take your car in and they go. When you go, is this the first time you've ever seen a car?

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Jake]

Is this the first problem you've ever faced? Because you work in this industry, you must have seen an engine that doesn't work. Whereas I see doctors. It's like, is it not a pattern to.

[Brene Brown]

Since the beginning of the business, as

[Jake]

you come in, that you could just go, here's. Get this information. Take this, here's the tablet. I'm surprised how little joined up thinking there is.

[Brene Brown]

What else do you want to talk about? This is great.

[Jake]

Well, thank you for clarifying about the messy. Because like I say, I wanted to pay homage to you because I frequently reference you, but I wanted you to know that. But it's like watching meerkats. Like, when you mention it, oh, it is a meerkat. Everyone recognizes it.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Jake]

But without necessarily knowing, what do we do about it?

[Brene Brown]

So the question is, in order to get a peak of light in the messy middle without going backward, what is the unsaid thing. What are we not talking about right now? What is not in the room that everyone knows needs to be in the room because we know from the beginning of the time. The human story is the messy middle is defined when individuals and teams come together to solve a problem but are avoiding the most vulnerable piece. This is especially hard with sports teams because the amount of money involved in sports teams so to name the thing really has far reaching financial implications. To say it out loud, there will probably be like people walking off saying, shit man, no one has brought up this because we can't. But that makes people like you and me really tough in our jobs because what is the unsaid thing in the room? You want to do that? I mean you want to win or lose?

[Jake]

Yep.

[Brene Brown]

If you want to win, put the unsaid thing on the table and let's really talk about what it means to be brave right now.

[Damien]

As a Reds fan, what do you think is happening with Liverpool this season?

[Brene Brown]

I mean if someone's expecting some really technical. I mean so I think what I think what I look at is what is the analysis of what's happening on the pitch by people who are much smarter than I am around the technical pieces of football. So why are we conceding? I'm always flagged when we're conceding late in the game. I'm always flagged when like the corners and the throat when there's some poor defending against set pieces like that. I mean what is the theme around what the analysts are saying? And the first thing that comes to me, one of the first things that come, always the first rubric that I run is is there a cultural is coming off a championship that's hard for a team like I think about University of Texas football. Yeah we went in with, I don't know how familiar y' all are with American football but we went in with our quarterback Arch Manning, you know, Manning royalty, you know, rated number one in the sec which is the big, you know, not the only but you know.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

Criteria that God, sweet tea in the SEC, you know and that pressure. And these are 18. I mean although football players are not much older, these are 18 to 21 year old, 20 year old college kids. The pressure post championship the biggest any team, not just the Liverpool, but any team post championship will people think in organizations they'll call it complacency, but it's not complacency. It is there's a real vulnerability and fear about maintaining status, maintaining the win. And so immediately I would go There. But then if you look at. And I'm curious, because y' all know football much better than I do. When I look at the three or four things that analysts are saying about Liverpool right now, the word that comes up for me is focused. I'm not. These are all focus issues, and they're especially focus issues if. I mean, this is more of a Klopp term, but kind of rock and roll football. Very intensive, physical football. Possession, possession, quick turns, drive. That level of focus required for that kind of rock and roll soccer, which I think sock comes from historically, too. I would associate these problems with that diagnosis. But I'm curious if you see a focus issue as well.

[Damien]

I mean, my take on it is that we can't separate the death of Diogo Jota in the summer from Liverpool's struggles. I don't think from Liverpool's struggles this season. They've lost, like, one of their best mates. They're mourning, they're grieving.

[Brene Brown]

And his brother.

[Damien]

And his brother.

[Brene Brown]

And like.

[Damien]

And they had no time to recover from that. And then the season started. And I just think there will naturally be players, and this is no criticism of them thinking that this isn't very important compared to what happened over the summer. No one's really. I don't think people are talking about that enough.

[Brene Brown]

It came in such a heartbreaking flash, but almost went away as quickly. And I think that's the business of sport.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

But I also think. I don't know. I think. And that would ladder up to focus, would it? Oh, for sure. For sure. That would ladder in sport. Grief, I mean, grief is a focus killer.

[Damien]

Yeah.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. And disconnection. Yeah. I don't know. It's not surprising to me, I don't think. But they don't look as cohesive either, and connected.

[Jake]

But I think there's something there as well about. They lost players last year and they brought in quite a five or six players that have come into the squad. So integrating them into the culture, you know, and the demands and the expectations, I think you're going to get a different.

[Damien]

Can I ask you a line about. A line about Jurgen Klopp, which I loved, which is that you said he loved that team into victory.

[Brene Brown]

I think he did.

[Jake]

That's great.

[Brene Brown]

I mean, he just. I was doing the podcast with Raj Bennett and he was talking about how Jurgen Klopp, like, gave him a hug and he's like, you don't understand what a Klopp hug feels like. I'm like. But I can see it on the Sideline, Like, I think. I don't think there's a lot. I think there's very little space between love and winning. Like, I think you can love people into winning. That doesn't mean that you don't have high expectations and accountability. And the way that Klopp and Jurgen, I mean, that Klopp and Slott coach, they're very physical. They develop very physical teams, would you agree? Like physicality, speed, the ability to turn a ball very quickly. I also like one thing I love about Slot that I use a lot in leadership too. Along with your podcast is this paradox of discipline and creative freedom. So I think one of the things that Slot's really good at is technical precision. You'll learn, you'll play our plays, you'll play our strategy, and then once I think you've mastered that, then you can make creative calls on the pitch in the moment, but you will understand technically what we're trying to do out there. This is not a free for all, although it looks a little loose right now. Playgroundy. Yeah, yeah, the back does for sure.

[Damien]

Have you got a favorite ever Liverpool player?

[Brene Brown]

I mean, for sure. Steven Gerrard. Why is there tape of the halftime talk that he gave when they were down in Istanbul? Yeah, in Istanbul, Turkey.

[Jake]

No, that never. It sort of got into mythology, but nobody's ever. There was never anything captured.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah. This is a Turkey game, right? Yeah, yeah. Against Milan. Milan. Milan, yes, Milan. I've made up what he says, so I don't really want to know, but that's what I pretend like I'm saying to myself sometimes at halftime.

[Damien]

And what is it?

[Brene Brown]

Oh, no, I can't say. No, no, no, no.

[Damien]

But what about as a footballer? Like, did you like the way he pulled that team and stepped up in the biggest of moments?

[Brene Brown]

I probably. I don't know him as much as a manager since he's taken on those roles, but I think as a player leader, I'm always going to believe in a team who has the team that has the strongest player leadership. Yeah. I don't care what's going on on the sidelines to do what Steven Gerrard

[Damien]

did season after season, year after year, you know, he carried that entire city on his back as well as, as well as the football team. I mean, there was, you know, the season where they were trying to be successful. He was having injections, he was hardly injured, still coming out, still performing. And, you know, we spoke to him on, on our show about when he, when he had that, that slip against Chelsea and he just said I just laid in the back of the car and my wife drove me home and I cried all the way home and I. And I. It took me a long time to stop crying, you know? And like, what a way for his story at Liverpool to end, you know what I mean? Like, I just think he's the most remarkable guy. Something I wanted to show you actually. There, we hit play on that.

[Steven Gerrard]

Hello, Brene.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Steven Gerrard]

Spoke to a good friend of mine, Jake.

[Brene Brown]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Did he say Brene? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jake]

It's for you.

[Brene Brown]

Did he?

[Damien]

I don't know.

[Steven Gerrard]

Hello?

[Damien]

Oh my God.

[Brene Brown]

Let's go.

[Steven Gerrard]

Spoke to a good friend of mine, Jake. He tells me that you're like, hi, Baths with him today and doing a bit of work. So really looking at the outcome on that. I'm sure it'll be really interesting for someone like myself. And he also tells me that you're a massive red as well. Great choice. Unfortunately, we're not doing too well at the moment, but let's hope the boys pick it up and we can finish the season strong. But looking forward to one day, hopefully being in your company as well. It'd be great to. To meet you face to face one day and just want to send some love and support. Apologies for being in me scruff. I'm looking a bit rough, but it is very early and I'm on the school run. All the very best. Take care.

[Jake]

Bye.

[Damien]

Bye.

[Brene Brown]

Shut the front door.

[Jake]

What a great phrase.

[Brene Brown]

I'm trying not to cry. That's so sweet. That was so thoughtful.

[Damien]

We could talk for hours. But we'd like to finish with some quick fire questions if you.

[Brene Brown]

Oh, let's go.

[Damien]

If you wouldn't mind, what are the three non negotiables that are most important to you? The three non negotiable behaviors.

[Brene Brown]

Sleep well, eat well, move well, connect well, love well.

[Damien]

Nice.

[Jake]

What's the greatest piece of advice you've ever received and why?

[Brene Brown]

I mean, I think something. I. I don't know if it's a piece of advice, but something I hold onto very tightly all the time. Comes from Atomic Habits. Yeah, by James Clear. We don't rise to the level of our goals, we fall to the level of our systems.

[Damien]

Brilliant.

[Brene Brown]

And I think it's framed and there's like lights shining on it in our office and I have it in my office at home.

[Jake]

Brilliant.

[Damien]

Why is courage being a learner not a knower?

[Brene Brown]

Because the future belongs to the curious and curiosity requires a ton of vulnerability and courage to Say, I don't want to know, but I care. And I'm willing to learn and I'm willing to be uncomfortable.

[Damien]

Brilliant.

[Jake]

Why does fear have a short shelf life?

[Brene Brown]

Why does fear have a short shelf life? Because neurobiologically, we can't stay afraid for very long. So we either disengage or we hypernormalize. So fear doesn't last for a long time. So in order to lead with fear, you have to be constantly doing pretty cruel things to remind us that you're dangerous.

[Damien]

And the final question, the answer you'd like to leave ringing in the ears of our audience. What is the secret to everyone living their own version of a high performance life?

[Brene Brown]

There is no high performance without high levels of self awareness. Know who you are if you want to perform.

[Damien]

Brene Brown, thank you very much. Oh, it was amazing. Thank you, Damien.

[Jake]

Jake.

[Damien]

Well, Here we are 24 hours later. We actually spoke for so long with Brene, both of us had to go and get a train home, hence the different clothes. But it's actually quite nice to talk now about what we discussed yesterday because it's kind of given us 24 hours just to process the things that she shared with us. What do you think was the most valuable element of that conversation for our audience?

[Jake]

Oh, that's. I mean, there was so many nuggets that she offered. But I love the stuff around the armor plating, removing it. I think I see it in so many elements, whether it's. She talks about the intellectual armor. You know, people are like the status armor. People feeling that they've got to armor themselves with knowledge.

[Brene Brown]

Yeah.

[Jake]

And yet the ultimate is sometimes just going, I don't know, I'm not sure. What do you think? Make yourself vulnerable. That was really powerful for me. What about you?

[Damien]

I mean, I love the idea of when she. When she kind of gave us all these examples of when she sat in front of strong, powerful men, like, you know, massive sports teams, and said, tell me a time when being vulnerable didn't require courage or bravery. And they were like, I can't think of it. And I think that for too long we had this idea, and if anyone's listening to this and they still have this concept in their head that if they are vulnerable, if they open up, if they are tearful, if they're emotional, if they expose themselves, then they must be a weak person. She's basically giving us totally the opposite narrative, which is you can't do any of that stuff unless you're brave. Therefore, the bravest people are the vulnerable people. And I think that that is a key. That point of difference, particularly for guys.

[Jake]

Yeah. And I think what I. What she offered that I really took away from it was the hard edge around soft language, if you like. You know, when we've. Like a phrase we frequently cite on here is psychological safety, it's one of the things that the research tells us that it's almost like a gatekeeper to high performance. You know, that if you don't have psychological safety and you fail, your ability to recover, to be resilient and rebound becomes severely impaired. So what Brene's offering there is the fact that you need to be vulnerable. You need to be able to say, I don't know, I made a mistake here, I've cocked up and be able to know that you're not going to be demonised for doing that, to be able to deliver the hard performance. And that's something we can all get a little bit better at.

[Damien]

So interesting. You know, Steven Gerrard sent us that message which he loved. I replied and said to him, brene loved it. And look what he's responded with.

[Jake]

Dare to Lead.

[Damien]

He is reading Brene Brown's book, Dare to Lead.

[Jake]

But that's a really good example, though, to me, of where, like Steven Gerrard, you know, this sort of alpha leader for many years at Liverpool, this guy that was at the arrowhead that was taking them, making difficult calls, difficult decisions, he's still got that vulnerability to go, I don't have all the answers. I'm still willing to. To listen and learn. And his message was lovely as well. That squeal of delight when she realized that one of her.

[Damien]

She spoke over it when she said. When he said, hey, Brene, didn't she? And then she was like, play that again, play that again. Oh, I loved it. Thank you so much. Really fascinating. I thought, you know, you brought some really smart questions and a great approach to that.

[Jake]

Oh, well, likewise, mate. But it was a real privilege to get to see her. We've spoken about her so often over the six years we've been doing this, so to actually get chance to sit and talk to her was. Was amazing.

[Damien]

Cheers, mate.

[Jake]

Thank you, mate.

[Damien]

That's it for this episode. Don't forget, if you love the conversation with Brene, we've spoken to so many incredible thinkers and leaders on this podcast. Feel free to send it and share it with anyone that you think might benefit from it. I think this is the kind of chat that you're going to come back to time and time and time again, if you don't already, please follow us on here. Please hit subscribe. Please get the episodes before anybody else, but please do come back for another deep conversation next time on High Performance. Hey, marketers, here's something to note. 75% of listeners don't consider podcasters to be influencers. Yet 84% say a podcaster has changed their mind about something they once believed. That's the paradox of podcasting influence. It's built on credibility, not clout. Trust, not trends. Acast's podcast Pulse 2025 report reveals how podcast creators are redefining influence through resonance, multiplatform fandoms and their ability to shape culture. Get the full report free at podcastpulse2025.com.