B (4:35)

I totally agree with what you're saying that people are. Are really wanting to solve the problems in their lives. And it's also helpful to understand where the problems come from. Like, nobody's mad at that, but typically, many times, that is often where traditional therapy ends. And so you and I share that. I too, got frustrated with traditional therapy and moved into coaching psychology. Because, do you know, I came across this statistic recently, and this just blew me away. But then when I thought about it, I was like, yeah, that fits. My experience is that something like 50% of the people showing up for therapy do not need or want or benefit from mental health treatment. That is not why they're there. It's like I need to figure out how to handle my mother in law differently. How do we improve communication, how do I figure out my career? Like they're really coming to therapists to help them solve actual problems in their lives. And there's this huge disconnect because therapists, that's not what therapists do. And so I think that there's this weird people wanting something from therapy that is not what therapy is for. And people don't understand that. And so you are a pioneer in this. You kind of connected those dots a while back and turned it into a different way of helping your clients. These high achieving women who are like, what the heck with their love lives.

A (6:03)

My program requires people to do the coaching. We have a, we have a self serve, self study version of the program where they can just get the curriculum if that's the way they prefer to learn it. But our higher level coaching with all the support requires a, a consultation. And I've done about 8,000 of those calls in the last eight years. We've had 15,000 women book them with our team. So I have a lot of like data in my mind. It's not, unfortunately I haven't been scientific about tracking it all. But they all say that they go to therapy looking for solving the problem and they end up just going in circles and it's aimless. So they go to therapy and the therapist is like, well, what are we talking about today? And it puts all the responsibility on the client to know where they're going and what they need. And I just say in this case, I'm charge, I know what you need. Just let me guide you through the process. Just receive what it is that I have to help you and you will get the result. And they're not paying me for sessions or time. We're contracted to get the result. And on those calls, those initial calls, we are talking about what is it that you want to get out of this? Who do you want to be at the end of this? And so you're not paying for sessions or time or whatever. It's an investment in who you want to become and that's what we're, that's what we deliver.

B (7:27)

Okay. So yeah, with that all in mind. So you have a special heart for helping a certain type of woman. And I would love to just get your insight into what is really going on. And particularly like who we're talking about are women who are these Dynamos, I mean, competent, organized, look good, sound good, like all the things, but there's this internal part frequently around like connection that just isn't working. Just take us into this. What's going on?

A (8:04)

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of variables, right? It's never just one thing because psychology and relationships are both extremely complex. But I find a number of things are happening. And when you see that woman on the outside and it looks like she's got her life together, often high achieving women secretly struggle with low self worth and low self esteem. You might not think it because of how she conducts herself in her life. She's got friends and the great social life or civic life or a great success in her career. And by the way, if this is happening for those women at that executive level, doctor level, at lawyer level, it's happening for most women. Most. I just love women. I think women are dynamos, but we are, we are our own worst enemy most of the time. And so when, when you see women who are kind of at the top of the ladder, so to speak, most of them have gotten there, not all of them. Obviously I don't want to speak in absolutes, but many of them have gotten there because there's a, a secret subconscious driving force underneath it all. I need to prove myself, need to prove I'm worthy, prove I deserve this, prove that I'm enough, prove that I'm smart, prove that I'm capable, I'm significant. See, and that is an old, old wound going all the way back to when we were little and we didn't feel seen or important. We didn't get our needs met, we weren't loved. You know, we only got praised when we got A's or we were, you know, seeking to find an identity for ourselves in the, in the chaos of a household. And that's how we got attention. So it's all that kind of stuff.

B (9:41)

Yeah, definitely. And, and I mean women who are at, at the top of the ladder, so to speak, have, have, you know, actualized all of that. But I also love what you're saying, that every woman probably carries some of that, particularly with those life experiences that performance based love, that needing to be good and together and all the things and that that can turn into this then like drive to please, to perform.

A (10:11)

Yeah, well, and it's in our conditioning as little girls.

B (10:13)

Right.

A (10:13)

And I really want this to change so terribly. So the more I talk about it, the more I hope that it, I catch the new moms who have girls. But we were all Conditioned to please, to accommodate, to be sweet, to be a good girl, to be kind, to be loving, to be nurturing. And we go into our relationships with this, what the kids call now, the pick me mentality. We want to be chosen, we want to be picked. We want to. Because when a boy likes us, we're desirable. When a man wants us, we are good enough rather than the other way around. And that's a lot of what has been brought. You know, that's the threat, the common thread still for my clients who are in their 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s, even, still carrying around this need, and that's the discrepancy. So they can go into their careers and kick ass. But when it comes to love and intimacy and being vulnerable, you can't fake it there. You can't hide. You have to drop your walls. You have to be seen. And if you really want to be seen, you have to let yourself be seen. And, and there's a lot to fear about letting someone close enough to see you when you don't love and value yourself all the way so they don't.

B (11:28)

Hmm. So. So you're saying that what I'm, what I'm hearing between the lines is that there's a. This kind of protective layer, this orientation towards proving oneself or being perfect is probably an overly simplified way of saying it, but that what it turns into are these internal walls that don't actually let other people in. And I'm sure that that is not conscious. Right?

A (11:59)

It's not conscious, but that's exactly what's happening. And I call it so I have a trademark phrase, protection prevents connection. And there are three identified Personas in our program that we, that we talk about. The pleaser, the perfectionist. So, yes, the perfectionist and the pusher. And these are all different clusters of behavior that are designed to keep us safe and protected from being witnessed as we really are. Because it's ultimately about a fear of rejection. And 98% of the women that we talk to, when I ask them what they're most afraid of in being vulnerable with a high quality person who's at their level is, I'm afraid that I'm going to let him see who I am and he won't like what he sees and he'll leave. Then I'm not good enough. That's what it ultimately is about. Even, even for the women who you think are just. They have their lives together in so many ways. It is just a common human experience, especially for women.

B (12:56)

Gosh. Just, I'm thinking About the humanity of it all, you know, and I think it's so easy to look at other people in superficial ways and have judgments or like compare yourself to them. Right. Make up these stories. But what I'm hearing you say, I think is something that we all instinctively know.

A (13:12)

Right?

B (13:13)

But it's like everybody is carrying around pain and their own story and just to like have compassion for other, other people, but also to have compassion for your. And I mean, would it, would it be a useful starting point even for some people listening to this and particularly women to think about? Do I tend to be more of a pleaser or a pusher or a perfectionist and just like a little bit of self awareness around how, how would I know? Although I think probably people are like, oh yeah, that's me.

A (13:45)

Yeah, so I'll just, I'll quick, just give you a quick description just so. And, and it doesn't mean you're not always just one. Maybe you're some of both. But most of us already know what a pleaser is. But these are the women who change who they are, edit, alter or filter what they want to say. They soften their opinions, they bend, accommodate, please. They think that they need to be somebody other than who they are for to be accepted, liked or loved. And it's all about the other person. It's never about them. And they bend over backwards to help people and they actually end up feeling misunderstood, unappreciated and taken advantage of even. And the perfectionist is the woman who is just so critical of herself, mean to herself, hard on herself, cannot give her, give herself a break, picks on herself. Nothing she does is good enough for herself. And she learned to talk to herself that way really most of the time from overly critical parents or you know, just high achieving households or whatever. But that is actually mental abuse. It's verbal abuse and, and then the pusher is somebody who is just emotionally unavailable outright. I mean everybody is in these Personas, but it's more like you've got your boxing gloves on and you're looking for a fight and you're waiting for the other shoe to drop and you're waiting for the disappointment. And so you're that cool, aloof girl who's got, who just can't, you know, unslappable. You know what, what those old books said, you have to be a bitch to get a good guy, right? Those are, that's what this looks like. You know, those girls that come off hard, maybe they get the you're intimidating kind of feedback, but it's all just designed to protect our tender little hearts from getting hurt. It is just armor. And none of it is effective because at the end of the day we end up creating the very rejection we're so desperately trying to avoid with these behaviors.

B (15:38)

And I would imagine that each of these different ways of self protection tend to create different types of relationship dynamics. And I wonder if you could give some examples of like what you've seen women unintentionally create in their lives because

A (15:58)

of people who are people pleasers often have this need to be needed. And so when you have a need to be needed, you're going to attract people who need you because you're getting something out of it. And then that looks like if you imagine a puzzle piece, you know, where there's this like concave bit, you're going to attract the people who have the protruding bit that fit. And so people pleasers often end up with narcissistic personalities. Yeah. And it's a symbiotic relationship. And I say some of people pleasers are so giving. They get joy and pleasure out of being this selfless, noble, giving, helping, whatever, empath type people. But those people can turn anyone into a taker and then it looks like the other person is the problem. And they might be a problem. But what we do that's so very different from most approaches is we actually put the mirror in front of women and we say, look how you're doing this, you're inviting this dynamic and if you want to feel valued and important and that the relationship has equal give and take and reciprocity and that it can actually be sometimes about you too, you have to learn how to receive. And that's very uncomfortable for women.

B (17:09)

Gosh, that's so powerful to hear you say out loud because I think you're absolutely right and that many people see the end of that. So if you have been over giving, over functioning almost intrusively in some ways, like inserting yourself to be helpful, then over time getting mad that other people are now in this position where they're expecting you to do things and take care of things and blah blah, blah, that can be so hard to have visibility into how you co created that outcome. And instead, oh, this is a bad person, this is a narcissist, they might be a narcissist, that's fine. But like there are also dynamics that can begin to develop that people really aren't aware of. And this is super duper help. You know, I'm just thinking right now I have, I have Worked with a number of clients like this, too. And I think that there are actually two facets of it. I think they're people who are incredibly generous and thoughtful and anticipate other people's needs and do really get a lot of pleasure out of helping people, being generous, serving others. But there's also this can be this transactional component. Like if I do all these things for you, then you will do things for me and love me and give things to me. But nobody says that out loud.

A (18:34)

I mean, it is an unspoken expectation. Oh, yeah. I mean, relationships become completely transactional so that even if they are in a relationship, they never really feel loved for who they are. It's really about what they can do for people. Yeah. It's not healthy at all. And the problem is most providers, helpers, coaches, influencers are talking about the big bad wolf, big bad scary wolf, the narcissist. And even the focus is narcissistic abuse, healing from narcissistic abuse. And I'm like, stop focusing on the other person and what they're doing. And a lot of. Because a lot of people will focus on how to outsmart the narcissist and how to avoid the narcissist. And I have this funny way of saying, like, if you keep. You've got your binoculars on your microscope out and you're looking for these guys so that you can avoid them, you're just going to get more of them in your life. Because we get what we're looking for, we get what we expect. Focusing and focusing and focusing on what you don't want so you can avoid it just brings it more of that to you. Whereas the true way to avoid that type of dynamic is to take full responsibility for how you are showing up in your life, in your love life, and know that your worth and your value has nothing to do with your achievements or your accomplishments. It has nothing to do with what you can do for people. And you can still be generous and giving and helpful, but you do it with discernment and boundaries and from a place of worth and value. And that's inside of you, no matter who you are or what you've experienced in your life.

B (20:01)

And that is also deeply unattractive to an average narcissist who is going to look at that and be like, no, this isn't going to work for me, and go screeching off like a bat and you do not have to worry about that anymore.

A (20:14)

That's right, I love it. It's a force field. It is your superpower you have a force field around you. They just bounce right off. Yeah. They're going to be like, that is the real answer.

B (20:23)

Too funny.

A (20:25)

Yeah, I love it.

B (20:26)

Okay, well, so what about perfectionists? What do perfectionists do in relationships with other people?

A (20:32)

They really just keep people at a distance. Right? They keep people at a distance. They don't want anyone to get too close because, oh, my gosh, if you discover that I'm messy or have this problem or this problem, there's a lot of shame. Deeply embedded shame. So if you really feel like you can't give yourself a break, and you're always pushing yourself and always seeking perfection, and you're hard on yourself in that you don't want people to see the behind the facade. So you will keep people at arm's length, and you might end up being really hard on them. And that's not like. Then nobody ever feels good enough. So you really do create the rejection that you're trying to avoid. Because the reality is a good person, a quality person who is healthy and wants emotional connection, wants more. They want to get behind the wall. They want to get. So a perfect example. I. I enrolled a lady into our program maybe about a year ago, but it was so poignant what she said. She was dating this guy for six months and he broke up with her, saying, I feel like I've been on 200 first dates with you.

B (21:32)

Oh, dang.

A (21:35)

I couldn't make that up. Like, yeah, I'm like, I'm still. I told her I'm still with that. I'm gonna use it. Because 200, who. Two first dates can be fun and flirty and sexy and hot and all that stuff. But at some point, you wanna go deeper. And this is a healthy man who wanted more from her, and she wasn't willing or able or capable of doing that.

B (21:56)

Yeah, but good for her, though, to, like, take that in, right? And, like, be like, oh, and listen to that and want to do something about it, and reaching out to you, I mean, that's huge.

A (22:10)

And so Oak doesn't know how. How. How do I let my wall down? I don't even know what that looks like. I'm just so used to operating in the world this way that my relationships are shallow. They never get very deep.

B (22:21)

This is fascinating. What about pushers? Let's talk about pushers.

A (22:26)

Pushers are harder to explain because they're kind of like a combination of both. And they're the ones that never get into relationships. Like, they're the extreme avoidant. You know, they they push people away too quickly. They don't give people a chance. They find fault with everyone. There's some perfectionism going on in there too. But they hide maybe behind their by the hind their accolades again. They're the ones that say I'm intimidating. People say I'm intimidating, but I don't see it. I call them sea urchins. They're kind of like prickly on the outside but nothing but goo on the inside. You know, one lady said, yeah, I'm like a Tootsie Roll. Tootsie Pop. How many licks does it take to get this to the center?

B (23:03)

Like too many licks, girl.

A (23:05)

Yes and no. Some people don't have time for that. They don't have the patience for that. They're going to go find somebody who's easier to get to know and easier to connect with and you don't have to knock down the wall. So. Yeah.

B (23:16)

Yeah. Interesting. Well, and that's, you know, I think I've definitely met more men that fit that archetype, so to speak. But I see what you're saying with there's definitely women out there like that as well.

A (23:29)

They've been hurt and they're not going to let that happen again. They're hyper vigilant, you know, looking for the flags before they can show up.

B (23:39)

Yeah, well, okay, so then what, what do you think? We've been sitting here and kind of unpacking some of this for the benefit of our friends who are here with us, you know, thinking about who, who am I? Or also maybe you know, my sister, my best friend, like all of that. And so what, once that self awareness is attained and I'm imagining that that recognition is probably the first step in your program, where do you hope people will go? Like where, where do you lead them in this process? And I'm sure it looks a little bit different for every person, but I just want people to understand like what is the path forward?

A (24:23)

Yeah, if you. Well, the way that we describe it is like a tree met. I use a tree metaphor. So the leaves on the tree represent what they're experiencing in the day to day. And it seems like that's what the problem is. I'm not attracting anybody I'm interested in. I keep getting ghosted. I'm not, I'm on the apps and nobody's messaging me or too many people are messaging me or you know, all of the stuff that they're running into that is really painful or relationships like we just talked about. I don't feel ever loved And I'm always taken advantage of, or it's always with a narcissist. Those types of things really feel like the problem, but it's actually not. It's a symptom. So then if. So we go deeper. So if you look at the tree trunk, it's how they are showing up in their love life. It's who they are being, not what they're doing necessarily. And that is their emotional state, their energy, and their vibes. So they're showing up ambivalent, anxious, insecure, self doubting, questioning themselves, not knowing what they're doing. You know, on the one hand, they're powerhouses at work and they've got this Persona over here, but over here, they, they, they immediately get insecure and awkward as soon as they like somebody. It's a vibe. And that can happen when women haven't dated in a long time, you know, and they're just widowed or out of a, out of a marriage. They don't know what they're doing, or they're just so scared of the intimacy that they desperately crave at the same time. And so we address that. But then the roots of the tree that's at the, at the base of it all and feeds the whole system are her deep subconscious fears and limiting beliefs about herself. I'm not worthy. I don't deserve love. I'm not good enough. Something's wrong with me. No one's ever gonna. Love can't happen for me. Those types of things. And we do all the layers. We don't just talk about how to get a guy. We don't just talk about what to text. We don't just talk about the apps. That is strategy, strategic, tactical stuff. And we do help women with that. But it is like such a small part. You can Google that stuff. You don't need me for that. What we do is so profoundly life changing and transformative because when you grow yourself, grow yourself, growing self. I love the name of your business. When you grow yourself, it's like you're the sun in your own universe, you know, like everything orbits around you. So when you expand your identity, it's identity work that we do. Really at the core. Every other area of your life is positively impacted by that. Love being one of them. So that's really what we do. We address all of it.

B (26:46)

Okay, so on behalf of either people in therapy or therapists listening to this with us right now and feeling very activated because, like, but what Hillary's talking about, like, that's, that's therapy, right? Identity work, unpacking layers. What am I telling myself? Like how our early childhood experiences shape us and then influence our outcomes as adults. So I know where this is going, but I would love for you to unpack for the benefit of our listeners, how this type of growth work is actually more in alignment with a coaching process than a psychotherapy.

A (27:28)

Yeah, let's go. Such a good question. Well, what we do is a 12 week experience. We're not going to just talk for years and years. One of, one of our ladies that we enrolled had gone to the same therapist for 10 years and she called it Wednesdays with Ruth. So we, we are going to solve this and solve it fast. So how we deliver, what we deliver, we're taking them on a deep journey and excavation. But it's multiple modalities from the coaching world and the therapy world. And I just, I'm trained in so many of them. I just take my favorite bits of each modality that I like and put it in a blender and I've come up with my own concoction. So we're doing mindset work, law of attraction stuff, emotional frequency and emotional intelligence, relationship theory and skills, healthy give and take, how to date. So it's a combination of so many things and it's educational. So there's like videos and journaling and homework that they're doing on their own and then we support them with weekly group coaching and private coaching in addition. So it's how we are getting them there. We are literally contracted for 12 weeks. We're going to get you there and we're going to get you there fast because we're not just going to tell you how great you are. We're actually going to tell you where you're going wrong so you can see it finally and not just feel better, but actually be better and do better in your life. And that's what's so life changing. We're honest. We literally will not work with women in our coaching programs if they're not taking responsibility for being the problem. We won't. If they're blaming men or the apps or where they lived, it's just not, not a fit.

B (29:05)

Well, you can't.

A (29:06)

They just think it's a matter of finding somebody, right? Not a fit.

B (29:09)

Yeah, well, so that's so interesting. But I love that too that I think deep, powerful transformational work really does go into deep old places, but it does it in an intentional way. But I think the important thing that I also want our listeners here to understand is that the big difference is that there is deep development mental work that needs to be done that is not mental health treatment. That there needs to be a clear red line around behavioral health care. That the reason why you are having issues in different parts of your life is because you have clinically significant symptoms of depression, anxiety, unresolved trauma. And you will not be able to do the type of work that Hillary is talking about until those symptoms are managed. And then a coaching approach can help you. And I think it's very important for people listening and being like, oh, that sounds good, to also be doing a little bit of self discernment because we need to have clear lines. And so what Hillary is describing is an approach that works really well for people who are fundamentally healthy and functioning well on a lot of different domains. But if there's other stuff going on that requires like a health care approach, you need to be aware of that and not get confused. And so I think to do self assessment. And Hillary, I'm sure you also have some of this in your program because while 50% of people who show up for therapy don't need treatment, it's also true that a solid 25 to 50% who are showing up for life coaching do actually have psychiatric symptoms and aren't going to benefit from coaching. And so there's this whole, like, assessment piece that can be challenging to sort through. So, yeah, we are screening on those,

A (30:59)

on those initial intake calls. We are screening for, you know, is this person healthy enough? And one of the key indicators is are they too victimy? Like a very victim mindset about poor me and this happened to me and they're not owning, you know, we know that it's not going to serve them. And it's not that we don't want to help everybody, but the way we do things is not a fit for everybody. You know, the, the way I describe it is like, Serena Williams is the best tennis player in the world, but she still has a coach and she's looking for feedback on like, I'm, I'm super amazing, but I want to, I'm looking for the 1% edge to be a champion. You know, what we do is we're already working with women who are pretty, pretty doing really darn well in this life and they're. That's actually when you do coaching.

B (31:44)

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, no, this is great. But I think so important for people to understand and also do that self assessment because if you're really like, not okay, not sleeping, not eating, can't get out of bed, blah, blah, blah, like you need to get to that foundational level, because this type of coaching that Hillary and I are talking about is. What's the right way to say, gonna rough you up a little bit? I mean, it's gonna be challenging and to take ownership and personal responsibility and be like, oh, yeah, I guess I. I do that. Like that. That is actually hard work, and you need to be in a pretty stable place, because without that, it can spiral into things that are not. Not productive, let's say. So anyway. But. So that's all important to know. And so could you share even one story of transformation with us as somebody that stands out? Who, like, where did they start, what happened, and where did they wind up because of doing this work? Because I want to leave people with hope.

A (32:46)

Oh, my gosh. I have, like, my. My mind is spinning, and I get to work with the most amazing women in the world. So that is a hard question for me to pick just one. But I'll start with Lori, because I worked with her as a therapist before I quit my practice. I helped her when she and her husband were struggling. Then I helped her through the divorce and when she, you know, was trying to get through all of that. And then years later, she came to do my program, and one of her big challenges was uber people pleasing. She was really afraid of getting into another relationship because she was afraid she would lose herself again. And really important parts of herself, her faith being one of them. And it was. I remember her clearly saying to me, if I don't. If I don't have to show up and be my full self and kind of take leadership of myself, then the failures aren't mine. I don't have to take responsibility for the failures. She's like. But then I also don't get to, like, celebrate the wins because they're not mine either. So she was really having struggle, just really putting her full, authentic self out there in the world. Well, she did the program. She's referred lots of people to the program. She is now married to the most amazing man. They, you know, had this beautiful wedding, and they have this great life, and now she's actually running for public office, which is the most, like, put yourself out there type.

B (34:17)

It takes a lot of strength.

A (34:18)

Yeah, it does. Like, people criticize you and. And scrutinize you, and you have to put it all out there, talk about, you have to be authentic, you know, So I just. I love her transformation. I'm gonna have her on my podcast at some point soon. So, Yeah, I. It just. It just another woman Damonica Like Powerhouse, 30 year attorney for an oil company in Texas. Perfectionist. She's also going to be on, so I feel like it's safe to talk about them. She's on my website too. Total perfectionist. Had never really been in a long term relationship at all. In her late 50s, could not just give herself a break. Enough to be her real authentic self in a relationship. She's now married to a judge. I mean it is just the best when women can get out of their own way. It's just let love in, stop blocking it. Women are. We are our own worst enemy. We are our own obstacle. It takes a lot of courage to say I'm the problem, but really I call it the bitter pill and the Madripill. It's the bitter pill to say you're the problem, but it's the magic pill. If you're willing to swallow it, you're the solution too. It can happen. You can have whatever you want. You just have to decide you want it and you're willing to do what it takes to just get yourself out of your own way.

B (35:34)

What an inspiring message and an inspiring conversation. And I'm sure everybody that we're hanging out with right now is just like, I need more Hillary in my life. So tell us, where can they go to learn more about you? Check out their, your podcast, your program. Obviously like tell us more.

A (35:51)

Yeah, the hub. I mean obviously my website, Command center. Yeah, it has Ready For Love Inc. Readyforloveinc.com There you can find my podcast. There you can find information about our DIY programs. We have like smaller priced programs that are self study. We have mid range and high level coaching programs. So it's all there on the website.

B (36:12)

Well, this is great, Hillary, thank you so much just for spending the time. But also, you know, I feel like you kind of lifted back the curtain and let us all kind of peek in and I think many moments of recognition were had, but also an understanding of what it really takes to change this and why it is so important to do this work. So thank you again for showing up with so much generosity.

A (36:39)

Thanks for having me. It was really fun.