A Conversation with Anne Sebba: The Women's Orchestra of Auschwitz

Summary

Detailed Summary of "A Conversation with Anne Sebba: The Women's Orchestra of Auschwitz"

Episode Title: A Conversation with Anne Sebba: The Women's Orchestra of Auschwitz
Podcast: The History Chicks: A Women's History Podcast
Host: The History Chicks | QCODE
Release Date: March 31, 2025
Duration: Approximately 1 hour and 1 minute
Guests: Anne Sebba

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Introduction and Context

In this special episode commemorating Women’s History Month, hosts Susan and Beckett engage in a profound conversation with renowned historian and biographer Anne Sebba. The episode centers around Anne’s latest work, "The Women's Orchestra of Auschwitz: A Story of Survival". Breaking from their usual format, the hosts conduct a heartfelt interview rather than a traditional chat, delving deep into the motivations, research, and narratives that shaped Anne’s poignant portrayal of the orchestra’s members.

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Anne Sebba’s Journey to Writing the Book

Motivation and Personal Connection

Anne Sebba opens up about her long-held aspiration to write about the Holocaust, a period she deems central to 20th-century history. Despite not being a survivor or the child of survivors, Anne felt a compelling urge to explore this dark chapter. A pivotal moment in her decision was a personal connection through her father:

“I found his official war diary and notes in the National Archives... it turns out that the women's orchestra of Auschwitz... were in Belsen when my father was there... once I knew that, I thought he must have crossed paths with the orchestra members”
— Anne Sebba [02:28]

This discovery not only provided a personal entry point into the story but also ignited a relentless passion to uncover and narrate the lives of these extraordinary women.

Transition from Journalism to Biographical Writing

Anne recounts her earlier career aspirations of becoming a war correspondent, which were thwarted by societal norms regarding motherhood. Encouraged by publisher Lord Weidenfeld, she transitioned into writing biographies, beginning with Enid Bagnold, followed by notable figures like Mother Teresa and Wallis Simpson. Her journalistic background contributes to her meticulous research and engaging storytelling:

“I see myself as a storyteller, actually, but a storyteller who only uses the truth.”
— Anne Sebba [48:46]

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The Women's Orchestra of Auschwitz: An Overview

Formation and Purpose

The conversation delves into the inception of the Women's Orchestra of Auschwitz, initially a failed attempt by Nazi guard Maria Mandel to establish a female ensemble to enhance her own prestige through cultural display. The orchestra's early days were disorganized, lacking musical expertise:

“They had to practice because only a few of them were decent or semi-professional musicians. The rest were Jews... a raggle-taggle band more than an orchestra.”
— Anne Sebba [22:50]

Alma Rose and the Transformation of the Orchestra

The turning point came with the arrival of Alma Rose, a remarkably talented violinist who transformed the orchestra from a chaotic group into a disciplined ensemble:

“Alma Rose decided, and this really was the making of her as a human being. She wanted to save Jews. So she took people... and she found jobs for them in the orchestra... she was very strict.”
— Anne Sebba [22:50]

Under Alma’s leadership, the orchestra grew to about 40-45 members, performing twice daily. Despite the horrific conditions, Alma enforced rigorous practice routines, fostering a sense of unity and purpose among the diverse group of women.

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Survival Through Unity and Music

Shared Humanity and Collective Effort

Anne highlights the orchestra as a microcosm of resilience, where women from varied backgrounds—Jews, Christians, Zionists, atheists, teenagers, and older women—came together to survive. The collective effort and mutual support were pivotal:

“They recognized that they were never going to survive as a single person playing good music. They either survived altogether or not at all.”
— Anne Sebba [27:28]

Hope and the Human Spirit

Amidst the brutality, the orchestra provided a semblance of hope and normalcy. Anne emphasizes that the women maintained their humanity through small acts of kindness and shared dreams:

“Many of them talked about recipes and things they were going to make when they got out of the camp... trying to remember what life was like before and hope about what it will be again.”
— Anne Sebba [29:11]

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Research and Writing Process

Sources and Interviews

Anne details her extensive research process, utilizing memoirs, official archives, and video testimonies from survivors. Meeting surviving members like Anita Laska Valfe and Hilda profoundly impacted her narrative, allowing her to present authentic voices and personal stories:

“I could go on about Hilda because she was such a moral person... she went back into the block to save artifacts like Alma's diary.”
— Anne Sebba [38:21]

Challenges of Group Biography

Writing a group biography presented unique challenges, such as weaving individual stories into a cohesive narrative without overwhelming the reader. Anne’s approach involved highlighting salient moments and maintaining a balance between individual and collective experiences:

“In some ways they are much harder because you can't write 40 biographies or it would be unreadable.”
— Anne Sebba [10:56]

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Themes of Morality, Guilt, and Resilience

Survivor's Guilt and Psychological Struggles

The discussion touches upon the psychological toll on survivors, including survivor's guilt and post-war trauma affecting subsequent generations:

“Regina suffered hugely because she was not quite good enough for the orchestra... survivor’s guilt is a very complex subject.”
— Anne Sebba [39:32]

Moral Responsibility and Acts of Kindness

Anne underscores the importance of moral actions and mutual support in the face of unimaginable cruelty, portraying the women’s resilience as a beacon of hope:

“Sisterly support and small acts of kindness... if only they could just survive one more day and help each other...”
— Anne Sebba [44:21]

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Reflections on Writing and Storytelling

Narrative Style and Storytelling Philosophy

Anne discusses her commitment to truthful storytelling, aiming to honor the women by presenting their stories authentically without embellishment:

“I'm a storyteller who only uses the truth. The sources are there. I never invent.”
— Anne Sebba [48:46]

Balancing Historical Accuracy with Human Emotion

She strives to balance historical facts with the emotional depth of the women's experiences, ensuring that their humanity shines through:

“I’d like to present them as real human beings who suffered and survived.”
— Anne Sebba [13:53]

Future Projects and Continuing Exploration

While Anne expresses her satisfaction with the current book, she remains open to future projects, driven by an insatiable curiosity about untold stories of ordinary people in extraordinary times.

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Notable Quotes

• Anne Sebba:

  • “You cannot understand what it was like unless you were there, so don't try.”
    — [27:28]
  • “Ordinary people in extraordinary times is really what I love writing about.”
    — [47:29]
  • “Many of them talked about recipes... trying to remember what life was like before.”
    — [29:11]
  • “If you can talk, you can write. Just take those words and put them on paper that you're saying.”
    — [49:44]

• Susan (Host):

  • “Our listeners are so fascinated by the process of writing biographies, our listeners gobble them up.”
    — [02:28]
  • “It read like a novel, a biography that reads like a novel.”
    — [48:21]

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Conclusion

In this enlightening episode, Anne Sebba shares her profound insights into the harrowing yet inspiring story of the Women's Orchestra of Auschwitz. Her dedication to uncovering and honoring the lives of these women provides listeners with a deeper understanding of resilience, unity, and the enduring human spirit amidst unspeakable atrocities. Through meticulous research and compassionate storytelling, Anne not only resurrects forgotten voices but also underscores the importance of remembering and learning from history.

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Availability:

• United Kingdom: Released on March 27, 2025
• United States: Available from September 2025
• Australia and New Zealand: Already available

Listeners eager to delve deeper into this compelling narrative are encouraged to procure the book upon its release and join the History Chicks community on their various social media platforms for further discussions and updates.

Transcript

[Susan]

Welcome to the history Tricks, where any resemblance to a boring old history lesson is purely coincidental. Hello and welcome to the show. This is Susan and I am Beckett. List this week, but I'm not alone. As our last episode in our March of 2025 Women's History Month, one episode a week marathon, we thought we would give you a little lonapp, a little something extra. Normally, we do not do author interviews. And quite frankly, I don't know if I'd even consider this an interview as much as it's a conversation. We have used a couple of Ann Seba's books as part of our research for a couple former subjects for Wallis Simpson, which is why we posted her again last week for Jenny Jerome Churchill when we got word that she has a new book coming out, the Women's Orchestra of Auschwitz, A Story of Survival. We got our hands on it and read it and we really, really liked it. And because of the nature of this book, we are bringing this episode to you ad free. Thank you for hanging out with us and we'll see you in a couple weeks. But now, on with the show. Hello and welcome to the show. This week we're going to do something just a little bit different. We're talking with the author of a brand new book called the Women's Orchestra of Auschwitz, A survival Story. So today we're going to be in conversation with Ann Seba. Hi, Anne, how are you?

[Ann Seba]

Hi. I'm absolutely fine. And thank you very much for breaking from tradition and doing an interview with me. I'm thrilled to be here.

[Susan]

Well, Becca, who could not be here today, unfortunately, but we've used your books as part of our research before for Jenny Jerome Churchill and for Wallis Simpson. So when I saw this come through, this new book, the Women's Orchestra of Auschwitz, and I know that we're going to be talking about somebody from that era in the near future, I thought, well, what do you think, Beckett? I said, do you think we can break tradition? And she said, let's give it a try. So here we are. First, I do know that our listeners are so fascinated by the process of writing biographies, our listeners gobble them up. And this particular book, I did it in, oh, well, it took me two days, but I took some breaks, so I gobbled it up in two days. So I'm guessing it took you way more than that to write it.

[Ann Seba]

We find that such a hard question to answer. There was a precise moment when I started researching this story, and it was actually only four years ago. I say only because Most of my books take five years. But then again, I really think, to be truthful, I should say it's taken me my whole life to reach this point. There's so much I should say about how long it's taken me. I have always wanted to write a Holocaust book because I feel you can't really call yourself a historian of the 20th century without dealing with the central calamity. It was such a black century. And yet I felt, what right do I have to write about the Holocaust? I'm not a survivor. I'm not the child of survivors. Perhaps I should leave it. And there was a particular story that led me into this. My adult son said to me when I was researching Belsen, looking for an idea for a new book, he said, mom, why do you always write about other people? Why don't you write about your own father? And I said, well, I don't really know much about him, but I did know that he had been at Belsen. He'd never talk about it because he said, rather modestly, he said, well, I wasn't there at the liberation. I was there a few weeks after, as if it didn't matter if you had. No kidding. So when I finally researched my own father's story, and he was a British tank commander, I found his official war diary and notes in the National Archives in Kew, which is near where I live. And it turns out that the women's orchestra of Auschwitz at the end of the war, the Nazis, in their unfathomable wisdom, divided the orchestra because they'd insisted until that point that it was half Christian, half Jewish. When they were evacuating Auschwitz and knew that the Russians were on their tail, they divided them again, and they sent the Jewish members of the orchestra in a train to Belsen at the end of the war. And the Christian members were treated almost worse. They had to do a death march to Ravensbruck. So the remnant of the orchestra, about 20 members, were in Belsen when my father was there. And one particular day stands out, May 24, the Red Cross were organizing a concert with one or two of the Auschwitz orchestra members playing. And my father was organizing the destruction of the lys ridden huts on the same day. And once I knew that, I thought he must have crossed paths with the orchestra members. He must have been there. So that was my way in, if you like. It sort of gave me permission to research that story. And more than that, it magnetized me. I couldn't leave it alone. So that's how I got into writing this particular book.

[Susan]

I love the personal angle of it. That's really important to me. I think even our own subjects that we cover, we have some type of a connection to them for some reason. I mean, obviously not as close as you do in this particular situation.

[Ann Seba]

So it's not a book about my father.

[Susan]

Right.

[Ann Seba]

It's about two paragraphs in the book. It's really a book about the orchestra. But you're right. Otherwise, biographers seem like vultures that we just settle on some subject to exploit it. And I really don't want to be that person.

[Susan]

Oh, my goodness. I have never thought of a biographer that way. Oh, now you just put it in my. Kind of like vampires sucking the information dry kind of thing.

[Ann Seba]

Well, using people to write a story about their lives, and I feel it's intrusive and one has enormous responsibility, and I don't treat it lightly. I don't like just to write a book, get to know the children, use their diaries, and then say, goodbye, I'm onto the next subject. I think you build up a connection if you're a responsible person. At any rate, that's how I view it.

[Susan]

No, even in our little. Because we do not spend five years on each subject. I think that's a very healthy approach you have, and I do admire that we kind of skipped over entirely your own personal experience what led you to become a biographer, because you have quite a library of books that you've written so far. But this is not your first career.

[Ann Seba]

No, you're absolutely right. So I always wanted to be a foreign correspondent ever since ever. I really wanted to be a war correspondent and report on the news. So I read history at university and I got a job at Reuters News Agency. And I really thought this was my dream job. Well, indeed it was. And I was the first woman that Reuters took on their graduate trainee program. And everything was going swimmingly until I got pregnant. I'd been there six years, but at that point I became not only the first woman Reuters took, but the first woman Reuters sat. Because they argued you couldn't possibly be a foreign correspondent and a mother. Well, that was 48 years ago. My son's 48. And so I thought, heavens, what am I going to do? My life is over. And I met George Weidenfeld, the publisher, Lord Weidenfeld, as he became. And he said, goodness, Anne, you must have a book inside you. And I was heavily pregnant, so I pointed to my stomach and I said, no, actually, that's a baby inside me. Ha ha. And he said, well, come into my office. On Monday. Let's find a book for you. And the fact that he picked me up and we worked on a book was so remarkable, and I'm truly indebted to him. And my publishers are still Weidenfeld and Nicholson. All these years later. Well, 11. 12 years. 11 or 12 books later.

[Susan]

Oh, yeah. I was just gonna say, I think it's longer than that. If your son's 48 or 49.

[Ann Seba]

Sorry. As I said, taken me about five years per book, so. So that's about right, isn't it?

[Susan]

Yeah. Well, I'm not big on math, but, yeah, that sounds about right to me, for sure. So tell us what your. That very first book was.

[Ann Seba]

Oh, well, the first biography was about Enid Bagnold, who is the author of National Velvet and the Chalk Garden. And I hit upon her because I'd always read National Velvet. I'd met Elizabeth Taylor when I was a journalist in Rome. Elizabeth Taylor, who shot to stardom in the film. And I'd often thought about it and she just. Enid Bagnold had just died. So I wrote to the family and asked if I could write the biography. And the link was that her husband was Sir Roderick Jones, who was chairman of Reuters. So I knew that Reuters had this amazing archive and I really did spend at least five years on that. And I loved writing it. I still feel Enid Bagnold is undervalued as a journalist, as an author. I think the Chalk Garden is an amazing play. But that was my first book. So then I had an agent and it led to the others. And I've written about Mother Teresa and, as you mentioned, Wallis Simpson. I've done group biographies, history of women reporters and women in wartime Paris. And this book that we're talking about, the Women's Orchestra of Auschwitz, is my third group biography. And in some ways they are much, much harder because for obvious reasons, you're not writing about one person, you're writing about a group. And you can't write 40 biographies or it would be unreadable. So you have to find a structure. It's more complex, but in some ways very rewarding.

[Susan]

I would imagine that if you were writing a biography like the one you did on Wallace Simpson, for instance, there's a lot of information out there on Wallace Simpson because she was a public figure. These women were not. So I imagine finding information on them is a little trickier or no.

[Ann Seba]

Well, two things to say to that. I started the Wallis Simpson book knowing that she'd become this one dimensional wicked woman. And I knew There must be another version of the story. I didn't know what I'd find, but I did find these extraordinary letters between her and her husband, which completely changed the perception of who Wallis Simpson was. And you may not like her anymore, having read my book. She is manipulative, but I think you really have to sympathize with her. She grew up in a family where she was treated as an outcast because her father had died, although there was access to funds. But it's partly that. It's partly that she was in search of security with Ernest Simpson because she had seen how her mother had been treated by the family. But it was more than that. It was recognizing that it was the King or the Prince of Wales, as he was at first. He was the uncrowned King Edward viii, but the Prince of Wales was really the one chasing her. So all the antagonism that was heaped on her and the Montreal could be heaped on him. He was the one pursuing her and pursuing her to the extent that he was prepared to upend British law and undertake a divorce, which was actually collusive, which was breaking the law. And so, you know, he would have been anointed as the new king, promising to uphold the law of the land, when actually he was subverting it in order to get his own wish to marry Wallis. She didn't want to marry him in the end. I mean, she had manipulated the situation. So it was a very, very different story from the public version. So that's one thing in answer to your question. The other thing is the reason I felt this book on the women's orchestra is so important is precisely what you mentioned, that these women were ordinary women. They were not famous, not known. And the whole Nazi ethos was to reduce these women to, to shaven haired skeletons who were simply known by their tattoo, by their number, to take away their humanity. And what I've really tried to do is establish who they were, establish their backstory, to present them as real human beings who suffered and survived.

[Susan]

Well, since we're talking about that, we never got more contradictory emails than we did about Wallis Simpson. And it was pretty much a clear divide in the middle of the Atlantic. People that were from your side thought we were too kind and too generous with her story and too compassionate. And people from our side were like, I had no idea she was even, you know, there was as many connections to the United States as there is. They had no idea. All they knew was just that she ruined the monarchy. You know, that whole, that whole line.

[Ann Seba]

So in my view, Wallis Simpson saved the monarchy because we got the better king. So no question, as no coward said that there should be a statue to Wallis Simpson in every market town. She did us a great favor. Wow. I think everyone accepts that now.

[Susan]

No, I. I agree, as did most of the writers from the United States. Anyway, getting back to the book, the Women's Orchestra of Auschwitz, tell us just a little bit about what this orchestra was and who it was made up by.

[Ann Seba]

Okay, so Auschwitz, as I'm sure many of you know, was actually established for Poles in the first place. It was former barracks, and so the first women who came were Polish women. Then women came from Ravensbruck, many of whom were German. And the first Jewish women were Slovak women. And that wasn't until 1942. And it was after the Wannsee Conference when the Nazis decided that they wanted to make Jews extinct, to obliterate Jewish life, Jewish culture and all Jews. So they built an extra bit on the additional ground, which is Auschwitz II or Auschwitz Birkenau as it's known. And that's where the women were established. Now, mostly, when the Jews were shipped in by train to Auschwitz, they were sent immediately to the gas chambers, if they were women, if they were considered old. And by old, I mean over 40 or young, that's children. So there wasn't much possibility to survive Auschwitz unless you could prove you could work in the office or the warehouse or the kitchen or the laundry. There were a few jobs. And then they had so many satellite camps producing armaments and other necessary equipment for the Nazi war effort that they decided to use some of these particularly fit or younger women to do demolition work or things like that. So the prisoners had to march out to work. And there were male orchestras in all the camps. And the Nazis used the orchestras partly to give the world the impression that the camps were benign, that they weren't extermination camps, and partly to give the impression that they were military camps. And so there was a bit of military discipline, but there was never a women's orchestra. Until two things happened. Maria Mandel, a Nazi guard, decided that actually it would improve her prestige if she could establish a female orchestra. And more to the point, it would make her look cultured. So Maria Mandel is the female guard who really wanted to get it going because she was having an affair with a Nazi architect. And she thought she did love music, probably, but that wasn't her motivation. Her motivation was to look cultured in the eyes of the man she was pursuing, so all she could do at first was ask a Polish teacher who had been in the camp for some months and was absolutely exhausted from the demolition work, if she could be the conductor and run an orchestra. And this woman was called Zofia Tchaikovsky. And she persuaded Mandel that actually she was related to Tchaikovsky. Nobody thinks she was, but it was enough for Mandel to believe, oh, I've got a relation of Tchaikowski running the orchestra. But this woman had no music and no musical training. She was a teacher. So all she could do is bring in a few of her Polish friends to play music from memory, a few Polish folk tunes. Now, as you can imagine, the orchestra wasn't very successful. And then something extraordinary happened. A woman called Alma Rose was captured in Europe, taken to Drancy, the transit camp in France, and shipped to Auschwitz. Because Alma was In her late 30s, she wasn't immediately gassed. She was taken to the hideous experimentational block in Auschwitz 1, where she was going to have an operation on sterilization experiments or fertility that the Nazis were doing. And she thought she was going to die on the operating table, which she probably would have done. So as a last request before she died, she asked if she could have a violin to play her beloved instrument. Alma was the niece of Gustav Mahler. Alma was was baptized a Christian. Her mother, Justine, who was Marla's sister, was baptized Catholic. Her father, who was also musical, Arnold, was baptized Protestant. So Alma had probably never been into a synagogue. But in Nazi eyes she was Jewish, because the family had once been Jewish.

[Susan]

Right?

[Ann Seba]

That's why she was captured. Now it was easy to bring her a violin because there were hundreds of them. When the Jews were shipped east, they were told they were going to a better life and to bring their most precious possessions, many of them brought instruments which were immediately seized, taken from them and stored in the warehouse known as Canada. So it was easy to bring Alma a violin and she played it magnificently. And the guards realized instantly that this was no ordinary musician. This was a super talented musician. So they called Maria Mandel to come and listen. And Mandel was thrilled. She suddenly realized, this is the answer to my prayers. Now I can have a for orchestra. She dismissed Tchaikowska and Alma was spared, but only if she could create and run a proper orchestra. And she did it by doubling the size of the orchestra. The Nazis still insisted that it had to be half Christian, half Jewish. But she grew it to about 40, 45 members. A few left, so it's hard to be precise about the numbers. And this orchestra played twice a Day at the gate to prisoners going out to work. The Nazis found it easier to count them like that in rows of five. And they had to practice for the rest of the day. They had to practice because only a few of them were decent or semi professional musicians. The rest of them were Jews. That Alma Rose decided, and this really was the making of her as a human being. She wanted to save Jews. So she took people, some of them as young as 14 or 15, who'd perhaps had two or three years at school playing the recorder, and she found jobs for them in the orchestra, either at the back, just keeping time with the downbeat on a violin bow, or several of them played the mandolin. And it was a raggle taggle band more than an orchestra. And that's why they had to practice so hard. Alma was very strict. She said to them, if you don't practice hard, we'll all go to the gas. In other words, we stand or fall together. And really that's why this story is so intriguing. None of them as soloists would have survived but as a team, pulling together Jews, Christians, Zionists, atheists, teenagers, women of 56, they were so different in their beliefs and in their backgrounds and in their upbringing. But when it mattered, they pulled together and they all were saved from the gas. Except Alma, of course. But that's another story.

[Susan]

I know. I don't want to give away too much because I think people really need to read this book and if you know the ending, then what's the point?

[Ann Seba]

Okay, I wouldn't say any more.

[Susan]

Yeah, well, no, please, I'm going to want you to say more, but yeah, let's just not say what happened to Alma, what her outcome was, how were these women treated in the camp? And a lot of times we've talked about, we, we talked about Anne Frank, you know, we went through a lot of the concentration camps and that story. And we talked about Audrey Hepburn. Actually, we had talked a lot about that during Wallis Simpson. We talked about the concentration camps and the Nazis in Coco Chanel. I'm trying to, I'm just pulling these all up. Our listeners have had a little bit of a background in how people were treated in the camps. But how were these particular women, the hierarchy, where did they land?

[Ann Seba]

They were not privileged in the sense that you and I. Privileged. We have enough clothes to keep us warm and food to give us energy. They had barely any more food. They did have underwear. I mean, I find it unimaginable that you could live in this freezing cold environment. You'd have to be Roll call early in the morning, tune your instruments, no gloves, and play for about two hours on virtually an empty stomach in the biting wind. So, you know, let's not talk about privileges in the sense that most people understand them, but.

[Susan]

Right, right.

[Ann Seba]

They had their own block. They had some humanity restored to them. They were allowed to grow their own hair. They were given reasonably decent outfits for a concert. I mean, not fashionable clothes, and they didn't have makeup or anything, anything like that. They had access to toilets. I mean, that was an enormous luxury. One of the women in the orchestra who's still alive, Anita Laska Valfe, she's 99, and I've had several interviews with her. And she said to me, anne, do not make this story pretty. Don't pretty it up. First of all, she said the music wasn't real music. It was ghastly music. It was jaunty marching band music, not what music is meant to be. So that's the first thing. And she said, secondly, don't forget some of us had dysentery and diarrhea streaming down our legs for roll call. We were not a pretty sight. But we did have hope. That's the one big privilege. And it's to get your mind around, really, that just having hope that you might survive is often enough. I mean, you did mention that the subtitle of my book is A Story of Survival. So I don't want to give the impression that it's all unremitting misery. It is miserable, really. But at another level, there's redemption, because they did survive. None of the orchestra were deliberately guessed in Auschwitz, and they all had different reasons for surviving. One of the women wanted to survive for revenge on the people who'd betrayed her and got her there. One of the women wanted to survive because she hoped her parents were in hiding and she knew that she would have to tell them the dreadful story of their son, her brother, and how he had died. Some of them just wanted to live because life has been a magnetic pull on us, even though they had seen the worst that humanity has to offer. Brutality. Their friends killed, their parents gassed. Somehow the human spirit has this need to triumph, and I find that so powerful that I really wanted to explore how they managed to live and whether it's a particular type of person that is able to survive. What it requires of you, and I'm not sure I have any answers.

[Susan]

I was just going to say, what do you think? Yeah, okay.

[Ann Seba]

I don't have the magic answer. Yeah, I think. And anyway, one of the Things I really wanted to convey. All the women I've interviewed, whether women in the orchestra or women who just had the misfortune to be in Auschwitz, all say to me, you cannot understand what it was like unless you were there, so don't try. And I've tried my hardest just to quote what other people say, because there isn't one version of the truth. There are many different versions, and I don't have the magic answer. And of course, even those who survived suffered dreadfully in the years after the war. And the second generation suffered and sometimes even third generation trauma. So it's a complicated story. But I try and quote what the women themselves reckoned enabled them to live. It's an odd thing, and I've picked it up in other concentration camp stories that I've researched professionally. Many of them talked about food, even though they're half starving and they have so little food. They talked about recipes and things they were going to make when they got out of the camp. And, you know, I don't have an explanation for that, but I guess it's trying to remember what life was like before and hope about what it will be again.

[Susan]

Yeah, that's beautiful. Like, think about when something bad happens, just having a little bit of a touchstone of normalcy, you know, and if they had been back in their own houses, sitting down for a cup of tea, they would have exchanged recipes. So that was a touch of normalcy in this horrific life that they were living. So that you were talking about the spirit, you know, the resilience of human spirit. And that's definitely an example of that, for sure. You're bringing up all these stories. Was there a person or a fact or a situation that you ran across in your research and you got into your book that has haunted you?

[Ann Seba]

So many, so many. I don't know where to start on that. Okay, I'll start with the Hungarian evacuations, because that's such a crime against humanity. The way Eichmann came at the end of the war, really, in 1944, and Alma Rose was already dead by the time all the Hungarians arrived. And so many incredible Hungarian musicians. But one story, nobody knew the name of a particularly beautiful singer who arrived with the Hungarian deportations. And she was pregnant. And the orchestra somehow got together and hid the fact that she was pregnant. They hid her sometimes when there was roll call. But one of the ways that they were able to hide the fact that she was pregnant, because she'd have been taken straight to the gas chamber's babies were absolutely not Allowed, even if you were in the orchestra. And one of the reasons, One of the reasons they were able to hide her was because so many of these women in the orchestra were so hungry that they had bloated stomachs. That actually a woman in the camp with a large stomach didn't necessarily mean she was pregnant. So they got away with it and she gave birth to her baby, and then both of them were taken and killed. So I'm just pleased that, thanks to various help from researchers and digging, I've got a name for her. She was called Eva Benedick. And we found a photo of her. And she's absolutely beautiful. And it's these sort of stories bringing women back to life in other versions of what happened to her. She's just a nameless pregnant woman who arrived from Hungary. And I think that's what I try and do when I give the talks. I show as many photographs as I can of these beautiful young girls to restore their humanity. And many of the women had already been in prisons and tortured, perhaps before they arrived in Auschwitz. And I don't just mean the Jewish women. Many of the Jewish women were just rounded up because they were Jewish, or some of the French resisters had been in prison and tortured. But the Polish Catholics were brought into Auschwitz because they'd been hiding Jews or because they were resistors. And one of the key players in the orchestra, Zosa Chekoviak, had been so tortured and beaten that she lost the sight in one eye. And yet she played in the orchestra. But she was always terribly depressed. She felt she shouldn't have survived because her fellow resisters hadn't survived and family members hadn't. So they were playing with so much emotional baggage. How they managed to pull themselves together and perform. I mean, one of the things I think I want to say about music, I said in an earlier answer that Anita Lasker insisted, I make clear that this is not beautiful music, it's ghastly music. So you could argue, when asked, what role did music play in their lives? In some ways, none at all, because they weren't playing magnificent music to a high standard. Music played a very important role because it enabled them to focus on one thing, staying alive by playing as well as they could. So to that extent, music was very important.

[Susan]

Oh, for sure. Okay. You're bringing up all these amazing stories of these long forgotten, and now you're bringing their names back and their memories to honor them. Tell me a little bit about your process for writing this book. You have this idea. This is what you're going to focus on then what do you do?

[Ann Seba]

Well, there is quite a lot of written material. One of the orchestra members called Fanny Fenelon, when she hit hard times, worked with a journalist and wrote a novelized version called Playing for Time. And that was turned into a film with a script by Arthur Miller. And Vanessa Redgrave played Fania Fenelon to much controversy, because Vanessa Redgrave is tall and blonde and Fanya Fenelon was small and dark. And also because Vanessa Redgrave was a supporter of the PLO in those days. And so people felt it was inappropriate. Anyway, had some success, even though it was mired in controversy. But as a result, the other orchestra members were very cross with Fania because she portrayed an exaggerated version of what had gone on. And she was particularly harsh on Alma, who, of course, was a disciplinarian, forcing them all to play to their best ability. And she did get cross with them sometimes. And even Anita said that when she once played an F natural instead of an F sharp, Alma was so cross with her that she was made to scrub the block floor for a week. But nonetheless, they recognized that Alma was their savior. So thanks to Fania, there were about six, six or seven memoirs that I was able to get my hands on. And that was rather interesting because I realized that the women's memories differed. Of course their memories differed. They didn't have diaries to keep a note of what was happening. They barely knew what it was unless an incoming transport told them that it was Passover or Day of Atonement or something like that. So I like the idea that we all have different memories of things. If you have a sibling, you know that your sibling remembers the same event in a different way. That's human nature.

[Susan]

Absolutely. I have a twin brother, and often we call each other up and say, do you remember that time? And the story is completely different.

[Ann Seba]

Precisely. And I have a sister, too, who I'm sure would echo what you've said. Yeah, there were a few written memoirs. And then I say my prayers to Steven Spielberg, because after Schindler's List, he set up the Shoah Foundation. And many people gave their video testimony in that crying of old age. But while they could still remember. And all these are available to access. And I had these women beamed into my living room, many of them unable to tell their story without breaking down. And many of them talking about what music meant to them as they entered the camp and heard music, not because the orchestra was playing to accompany them to the gas chambers, but because the orchestra was playing with their windows open and rehearsing or practicing. So there are these video testimonies. And the US Holocaust Museum has a collection, the Fortunoff Library at Yale. So there's no shortage of material. And then there is, or there was, I thought, just one living member. So of course, I went to see Anita as fast as I could. Anita believed she was the only living member, as did most people. But actually, on a kibbutz in Israel, there was a second living member, Hilda. Hilda, who's a bit of a heroine for me, I think I should say. They're all heroines to me, actually. Yes.

[Susan]

No. But that Hilda definitely had a place in this workbook.

[Ann Seba]

Well, I think they're all heroines because they survived. And that's the greatest form of resistance to the Nazi plan for extermination. These women survived. Hooray. But when I discovered Hilda was alive at 99, I immediately got on a plane to Israel to interview Hilda. So I've met two members of the orchestra. Hilda died when she was 100, and that really is so, so important. Hilda lived on a kibbutz with a third member, Regina. And Regina suffered hugely because she was not quite good enough for the orchestra. But she was taken on by Alma as a maid, and she always felt guilty because she was outside the orchestra. She survived, but perhaps she felt she shouldn't. I mean, guilt is something you can't explain. So many survivors feel guilt for surviving when others didn't.

[Susan]

Right. I don't know how they don't.

[Ann Seba]

Yeah, exactly. Survivor's guilt is a very complex subject. We'd be here all day talking about that. But meeting Hilda was really a privilege. Hilda has did so many things that I think really need to be recognized as the most courageous actions. When the women were separated, which I mentioned earlier on, and the Jews were told they were being sent to Belsen and they should take off their concert clothes, put on rags again, leave everything behind and just go. And not go back into the block. Leave their instruments, leave everything. Hilda disobeyed orders. I mean, just imagine how brave that is. And went back into the block. Not to get her instrument, not to get useful things like food or a jumper, but to get artifacts like Alma's notebook, Alma's diary, the red bag that she carried, the music in incredible historical foresight, because she knew there would be people who would say, I don't believe this ever happened. Not true Holocaust deniers or just orchestra deniers. And she knew she needed to have these physical artifacts which are now in Jerusalem at Yad Vashem to prove it had happened. And I'm just so full of admiration that she did that and survived and clung onto them in Belsen. I mean, all of it is just so, so remarkable. I could go on about Hilda because she was such a moral person. And to be moral in. In ordinary life is one thing. To be moral in a concentration camp defies belief. But Hilda said you have to behave better than anyone could reasonably expect, because otherwise, what's the point of surviving? And I just try and think about it. I mean, I can't explain what it means to have that as a mantra. Often we all feel angry. We all feel angry, and you want to take it out on somebody. And I just say to myself, what would Hilda say?

[Susan]

So you brought Hilda. The Hilda that you portrayed that I read about in here was a very smart survivor. She was able to look a couple steps ahead instead of. A lot of people are just trying to get to the next day or the next minute for themselves. And it looked. Sounded like Hilda was more thinking more, you know, of a. Of a 360 survival rather than just that.

[Ann Seba]

She went to Zionist. She believed there would be a better future. I mean, Hilda turned down a place on the Kindertransport to stay with her mother. Her father had already been killed and she wanted to stay and look after her mother. Her mother died eventually and she lost her own chance of freedom and ended up in Auschwitz. But she still believed that there would be a better future.

[Susan]

Now, tell me, how did you find out that she was still alive?

[Ann Seba]

Oh, I can't complain. That was me. I was lucky. When I signed a contract, it was announced in a trade publication called the Bookseller. So there was an announcement online, and the granddaughter of Regina, who was doing her own research, read about me and reached out and said, did you not know Hilda's alive? And I know quite a bit about the orchestra. You know, why don't we meet? So I really was just terribly lucky. It's one of the powers of the Internet, otherwise I would never have known.

[Susan]

Who reads that? I mean, yeah, you know, that is. Well, it was just meant to be. I'm a big believer in that. Okay, so I think I might know the answer based on what you've been talking about. But tell me, living for five years now, that's just this book, you know, I know you had some other World War II era five year spans, you know, your bookmaking spans, but how do you not let it get you down? Like, how do you not internalize all that pain?

[Ann Seba]

Well, there are sometimes, I mean, I think you have to feel when you're writing about other people, what would they have done? What was it like? You try terribly, terribly hard. So how did I cope with that? Well, first of all, I was born in 1951 and my parents had friends who'd been in the camps. I remember a particular friend of theirs who came for dinner with numbers on her arm. I've never not known that the Nazis tried to kill Jews and that there were concentration camps to do it at scale. So I've just always known it. I visited a lot of camps in the course of my work. I've seen them at close quarters. So that's one thing. But the second thing is I think this story actually is upbeat. It's redemptive. They do survive. They do somehow form small groups of sisterly actions, small acts of kindness. They do sometimes share their food, not always, but they look after each other, they make cards for each other, they support each other. And that actually is, I think, what is the takeaway from my book, that it's a book where sisterly support and small acts of kindness, I don't make a great big conclusion, a grand statement that here are 11 nations and when they pull together, it's not a book about European nations coming together. It's a book about a group of women helping each other when they needed to. Because the bigger picture was if only they could just survive one more day, one more day, another day, and help each other by finding medicine or food or rags or something, then maybe they would all survive. I think they recognized that they were never going to survive as a single person playing good music. They either survived altogether or not at all. And I find that quite uplifting. An upbeat book. It's meant to be a tear jerker. Ghastly though the camps are. And as important as I believe it is to understand these stories, I'm. I'm really thrilled to put names to these faceless women. So I'm very happy that I've done it and I hope when people read it, that's how they'll read it. Not as one more book of unremitting misery about Nazi cruelty. Although that, I'm not ignoring that.

[Susan]

No, I don't think you did at all, at all. I think you achieved that if that was your goal, to take this one group of women and explain how they survived it, to explain the bigger picture that was going on.

[Ann Seba]

Ordinary people in extraordinary times is really what I love writing about.

[Susan]

I pulled it from your website. You said something in your about me or one of your pages about how telling the stories about these particular women that you've told through all of your books, how they lived and the struggles that they had and the challenges that they had, you are able to tell that bigger story by telling that smaller story. Right. Of one person, you can tell the bigger story.

[Ann Seba]

I think so. I mean, I have met a few celebrities in the course of my journalistic life, and some of them are very interesting. But by and large, celebrities are not as interesting as some ordinary people. You need the struggle, the inner life to overcome something. And as a writer, that's really what hooks me. I hope it hooks my readers.

[Susan]

Okay. In our shows at the end, we talk about our media and the books that we read and the sources that we used. And one of my highest compliments I can make is it read like a novel, a biography that reads like a novel. It makes me so excited. And I think you have that ability. And so I think it might be because of your journalistic background, but also I think it's because of.

[Ann Seba]

I don't.

[Susan]

Your humanity, your personality. You're able to put that on the page. And so I appreciate it. So you definitely did it for me.

[Ann Seba]

So I'm not trying to write an encyclopedia. You have to shape a book. You have to picked these salient moments. And otherwise your book would be 900 pages. And I'm not trying to do that. But it is a story. I do see myself as a storyteller, actually, but a storyteller who only uses the truth. The sources are there. I never invent. I would love to be able to write a novel, but I can't write a novel. Cause I can't write dialogue. I just don't have it in me. I don't think.

[Susan]

I don't know. Isn't it just. I am a writer myself. And when I talk to classes and things, people say they can't write. And I say, you're talking. If you can talk, you can write. Just take those words and put them on paper that you're saying. So.

[Ann Seba]

Well, that's really interesting. Every time I say to my agent, I don't know enough about the fact, perhaps I'll turn it into a novel. She says to me, no, don't write a novel. You're so good at what you. Well, that sounds confusing of me. But she says, don't write a novel. So stick. Stick to the day job, I think.

[Susan]

So let me ask you, do you have one. Do you have a novel that you play with or have you in the past sometimes.

[Ann Seba]

But nothing I'm going to reveal on here. I do.

[Susan]

I. I've got. I've got probably 10 novels that I've written that nobody has seen except maybe one or two people that beta read them, and I just put them away because I needed to. I needed to write it. I needed to write that story. So I get it.

[Ann Seba]

For me, I think the flu epidemic early in the century is not adequately understood. The numbers who died after this terrible destruction and calamity of World War I, then to be hit by the flu epidemic that killed so many young people, including my aunt, my father's older sister. And I think my father was definitely shaped by the fact that his sister, only 11 or 12, died in a matter of 48 hours from the flu epidemic. And I often wonder how one could turn that into a novel. But I'm not going to do it. What I do always say when I'm writing my nonfiction is, what would I have done? And that actually is a very important thing to say at every stage. What would I have done? I'm sure I'd have been an absolute coward in World War II. I like to think I'd have joined the resistance. I'd have fought the Nazis. I'd have been a career across the mountains helping down airmen and resisters get to Spain from France. But probably I'd have done absolutely none of that. But I try and enter imaginatively into the mind of the people I'm writing about. My goal.

[Susan]

The women, obviously, in your book didn't have a choice. They couldn't stay home and just tend to their victory gardens. Right. They were taken, and it was forced on them, their survival. So you can't say you don't know what you're going to do because nothing's been forced on you.

[Ann Seba]

Right, exactly.

[Susan]

So I totally agree.

[Ann Seba]

And if I've learned anything from this, it's all children should learn to play an instrument. I don't mean that to sound facetious. No, but. And perhaps all children should learn languages, because I think those who survived more easily in the camps were those who could understand what other people were saying. I think it's such an important way to communicate for tolerance. Learning languages really is one of the most important messages, I think, for human survival, to understand different cultures and to read books in different languages. And I think if we give up on understanding other people and other cultures, it leads to intolerance.

[Susan]

Yeah.

[Ann Seba]

My thought for the day.

[Susan]

That's a great note. That was very wise. Thank you. Was there anybody that you met in the course of. I mean, not met, like in person, but you read about. And maybe they didn't make it into this book, but you think they might have something that more they have a bigger story that can be told than being part of.

[Ann Seba]

You mean what's my next book?

[Susan]

Well, no, not necessarily, because I'm going to guess you're already working on that, but I'm just wondering if there's somebody that you want.

[Ann Seba]

Cool sign. No sons, still living in the zone. I'm obsessed.

[Susan]

Oh, are you? I guess I should have asked that question. How does you finish a book? Then what happens?

[Ann Seba]

Well, I'm still writing articles about it. I'm talking to you about it. I'm giving lectures now. I'm thrilled to say it has been bought by about six other countries, so there are translations going on. It hasn't been bought by every country. You know, there were 11 nations in this orchestra. But it has been bought by the Dutch. I would love to go to Holland, to Amsterdam when it's published there. It's coming out in America in September and I will travel to New York, probably. I used to live in New York and I love being there. Oh, yeah. So I will live this book and the stories in it for quite a while longer to find something else because I need a reason to get up in the morning, but I haven't got a great idea.

[Susan]

It sounds like you have a lot coming up. I mean, you have some time to let this all ruminate, I guess, right?

[Ann Seba]

Actually, once you let go of a book and let it fly and see how other people treat it, you do see it in a slightly different way. I've seen it in a certain way for all the time I've been living with it. But reviewers and people who interview you, obviously they see it differently.

[Susan]

Oh, sure, yeah. Well, it's just like every biographer is going to bring a little of their own personal bias. I guess that sounds so negative, but I don't think it is.

[Ann Seba]

No, but it takes on a life of its own. Other people definitely see things in it that you thought. I didn't realize I was doing that. I mean, let give you one. For instance, I certainly did not intend to write a feminist book. I do tend to write about women. I mean, I have two links in the books I've written. One is, I'm gripped by the year 1936, because I think that was the year when the world could have stopped Hitler. When he marched into the Rhine, London, nobody stopped him. In France, they had a popular front government that was about to collapse in Spain. There was a civil war in England. We were faffing around about a king and his morals. So 1936 is really as much a common thread for me as writing about women is. Although I've always written about women, and I suspect that my publisher would not be happy if. If I didn't write about women another time.

[Susan]

But we have that in common, Anne, because sometimes we call them our roosters and we threaten. You know, we have a list of men that if we were to ever cover men on our show, that we would be interested in Frederick Douglass, for instance, Charlie Chaplin, Benjamin Franklin, you know, so there's. There's a. There's a list, but I don't think we ever really could seriously do it.

[Ann Seba]

I hope you do. Charlie Chaplin. Charlie Chaplin proposed to my grandmother. They were both born the same year, and my grandmother was on the stage from the age of 14 to 21. And of course, she turned Charlie Chaplin down when she was about 16 because her whole aim was to move off the stage and marry upwards. Social mobility. So Charlie Chaplin at that point, when she was 15 or 16, did not represent a chance to move upwards. So. So.

[Susan]

Oh, my goodness.

[Ann Seba]

Well, what might be a novel. I might.

[Susan]

I turned down Charlie Chaplin. I know.

[Ann Seba]

I have to.

[Susan]

So, wait, who did she marry?

[Ann Seba]

Oh, she married a Jewish immigrant who became obviously my grandfather as part of the Birmingham Silver fraternity. His family came from Krakow. And she converted to Judaism in order to marry my grandfather and gave up the stage at 21. But the social mobility maybe a notch upwards. Hardly. But she was able to lead the stage, which was the goal.

[Susan]

Wow.

[Ann Seba]

Okay.

[Susan]

That. That's pretty cool. Okay. This is a question that nobody ever asks us. Like, we do a lot of Q&As too, and. And nobody asks us. So let me ask you. Is there a question that you wish someone would ask you? And they rarely do.

[Ann Seba]

No, not really.

[Susan]

You're going to get off this call and you're gonna be like, I know one. Susan.

[Ann Seba]

I feel I write about other people, and I shouldn't really always bring the conversation back to me. Although when you reach the age I am, you do look back on your life and think, is there a reason for it? Is there a pattern for it? It's why I love interviewing old people, because I think you do try and make sense of your life, and sometimes you impose a pattern that isn't actually there because you're trying to make sense of what you've done. But that's not exactly an answer to what you've asked me. I'm just very flattered that you talk about my work because I see my work as an enormous privilege that I'm able to examine the lives of other people. And it gives me such a pleasure to meet so many interesting people. What other career enables you to meet the world? And I've scratched the surface. If indeed you can call it scratching the surface. There are just so many places I still want to go to and people to meet.

[Susan]

Well, that sounds like a really good place to stop. I want to thank you so much for your time today. Now, tell us again. This comes out in the UK next week on Thursday the 27th, 27th March 2025. And here in the US we can get it. When?

[Ann Seba]

I'm afraid not until September.

[Beckett]

Oh.

[Susan]

Oh dear. Oh dear, dear.

[Ann Seba]

Well, what can I say?

[Susan]

I don't know. Maybe people can bring them back.

[Ann Seba]

Yes, I know.

[Susan]

Heading that way.

[Ann Seba]

That's about it. You can buy it in Australia and New Zealand.

[Susan]

Okay, that's good. Well, you know what? Our audience is mostly American, but any English speaking country, we have a sizable audience. So I don't think you have to worry about that. They will be trying to get their hands on it. And you know what? Our listeners are so resourceful that it would not surprise me if they find a way and start sharing it among themselves to get their hands on this book here in the United States.

[Ann Seba]

Fantastic. Well, I'd love nothing more.

[Susan]

Well, thank you again for your time.

[Ann Seba]

And thank you, Susan, for listening.

[Susan]

Bye. Thank you for joining us today. If you like what you heard, please tell a friend and or leave a five star review for us on whatever podcast you're listening to us now. You can find me and Beckett on Facebook and our private group, the History Chicks Podcast lounge. We are also active. Ish. We're working on it on Blue sky and on Threads. And the end song today is Way Way Back by lvly with Megan Gifford. Used by permission of Epidemic Sound. It just reminds me that we all are keeping the memories and the names of people in history alive. We're standing by them, standing still every time we talk about them. We'll see you next time.

[Beckett]

There's some stains on your photo.

[Ann Seba]

They.

[Beckett]

All cracks on your rusty frame Stuck in the mud but it's okay I don't have the peace Buried in the flashbacks all these wicked nightmares is gone cold now we go way, way back as far as way back go still standing by your side. You know I'll be right here when all the monsters come I've got you? You grow old in suburbia? Where pretty demons never show Shifting shapes in millennia? But you're okay? I don't have the pieces of your buried in the flashbacks? All these wicked nightmares is gone cold? Now we go way, way back? As far as way back? Still standing by your side? You know I'll be right here? When all the monsters come? Oh, I've got you? Sa the way way back? As far as way back go? Still standing by your side? You know I'll be right here? When all the monsters come? I've got you.