Invisible Hands: 3. Selling The Silver

Summary

The History Podcast: Invisible Hands – Episode 3: Selling The Silver

Release Date: April 9, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 3 of "Invisible Hands," titled "Selling The Silver," host David Dimbleby delves into the pivotal moment in British history when Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher spearheaded the free market revolution through the privatization of state-owned industries. This episode intricately explores the ideological battles, strategic maneuvers, and cultural shifts that accompanied the transition from a state-controlled economy to one dominated by free enterprise.

Background: State-Controlled Britain

Before Thatcher's ascent to power in 1979, Britain operated under a post-war consensus where essential services such as water, electricity, gas, railways, and telecommunications were nationalized. These industries were managed by the state with the belief that government oversight would ensure efficiency and accessibility for all citizens.

David Dimbleby sets the stage by highlighting the inefficiencies and public dissatisfaction with state-run services:

David Dimbleby [09:05]: "Nationalization didn't deliver all it promised. Gas was cheap, ok, but getting repairs done, you had to wait for weeks. Trains never seemed to run on time."

The Rise of Privatization: John Redwood's Vision

John Redwood, a prominent Conservative MP and ardent free-market advocate, becomes the focal point of the episode. Raised in a council house in Canterbury, Redwood's personal observations of the inefficiencies in state-run services led him to champion privatization as a solution.

John Redwood [08:02]: "Always came from competing private sector companies. The progress didn't seem to come from the state."

Redwood's epiphany was rooted in the tangible improvements seen in everyday consumer goods, which he attributed to private sector competition rather than government intervention.

Ideological Battles Within the Conservative Party

Redwood's radical ideas initially faced significant resistance within Margaret Thatcher's own Conservative Party. Elder statesman Harold Macmillan emerged as a vocal opponent, vehemently criticizing the concept of privatization.

Harold Macmillan [16:54]: "It was simply too radical, too ambitious even for her."

Macmillan argued that selling national assets was irreversible and likened it to liquidating a family's estate, emphasizing the loss of national pride and control.

The Privatization of British Telecom

Undeterred by internal opposition, Thatcher entrusted John Redwood with leading the privatization of British Telecom (BT), one of the largest and most critical state-owned enterprises. The process involved meticulously planning the sale of shares to the public, a novel concept at the time.

John Redwood [11:19]: "These things could be an awful lot better if they had private capital or competition or better management."

To overcome skepticism from bankers and the media, Thatcher's government launched an aggressive advertising campaign, making share ownership accessible and appealing to ordinary Britons.

David Dimbleby [22:14]: "Advertisements appeared overnight. It would tell you how much the shares cost and how you buy them, urging the public to sign up to the sale of BT shares in just four months time."

The campaign was a resounding success, raising £3.7 billion and making over 2 million Britons shareholders in BT.

David Dimbleby [24:16]: "Kenneth Baker emerges from the lift into a bustling party of executives and journalists and government ministers. And then on a screen near the bar, the numbers started flashing up. 3.7 billion pounds raised."

Overcoming Opposition and Cultural Shifts

Despite fierce opposition from both within the Conservative Party and external entities like trade unions, the successful privatization of BT marked a turning point. It demonstrated that large-scale privatizations were feasible and could generate significant revenue for the government.

John Redwood [20:20]: "I said, yes, I think what's going to happen is that when we privatize you, you're going to put your salaries up and grant yourself enormous bonuses and this is going to be a huge embarrassment to the government."

This victory emboldened Thatcher and her free-market allies to pursue further privatizations, fundamentally altering Britain's economic landscape. The campaign also aimed to reshape the British mindset, encouraging widespread participation in capitalism and shareholder ownership.

Margaret Thatcher [25:41]: "Popular capitalism is a crusade, a crusade to enfranchise the many in the economic life of Britain."

Impact and Legacy

By the end of the 1980s, the privatization movement had transformed the British economy, raising £60 billion and making 15 million Britons shareholders. This shift not only altered economic structures but also catalyzed a cultural revolution, embedding capitalist principles deeply into British society.

David Dimbleby [26:12]: "And in so doing, they create a new society."

The episode concludes by emphasizing how these changes laid the groundwork for subsequent economic reforms and positioned Britain as a prime example of successful free-market transformation.

David Dimbleby [28:33]: "And the foundations were also laid for the next revolution, because with a quarter of people in the country owning shares, profit had become king and another old world was waiting to be shaken up."

Conclusion

"Selling The Silver" provides a comprehensive narrative of the privatization era, highlighting the strategic vision of key figures like John Redwood and Margaret Thatcher. Through detailed analysis and engaging storytelling, the episode underscores the profound and lasting impact of the free market revolution on Britain's economy and cultural identity.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• John Redwood [08:02]: "Always came from competing private sector companies. The progress didn't seem to come from the state."
• Harold Macmillan [16:54]: "It was simply too radical, too ambitious even for her."
• John Redwood [11:19]: "These things could be an awful lot better if they had private capital or competition or better management."
• John Redwood [20:20]: "I said, yes, I think what's going to happen is that when we privatize you, you're going to put your salaries up and grant yourself enormous bonuses and this is going to be a huge embarrassment to the government."
• Margaret Thatcher [25:41]: "Popular capitalism is a crusade, a crusade to enfranchise the many in the economic life of Britain."
• David Dimbleby [24:16]: "Kenneth Baker emerges from the lift into a bustling party of executives and journalists and government ministers. And then on a screen near the bar, the numbers started flashing up. 3.7 billion pounds raised."
• David Dimbleby [28:33]: "And the foundations were also laid for the next revolution, because with a quarter of people in the country owning shares, profit had become king and another old world was waiting to be shaken up."

Final Thoughts

Episode 3 of "Invisible Hands" masterfully captures the essence of Britain's free market revolution, illustrating how strategic leadership, ideological conviction, and cultural campaigns converged to reshape a nation's economic destiny. Through detailed accounts and firsthand testimonies, listeners gain an in-depth understanding of the forces that drove privatization and the enduring legacy it left on British society.

Transcript

[David Dimbleby]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Paul McGann]

Titanic Ship of Dreams, the new podcast from the award winning Noiser Network. Join me, Paul McGann, as we explore life and death on Titanic. I'll delve into my own family story following my great uncle Jimmy as he tries to escape the engine room. We'll hear the harrowing tales of the victims and the testimonies of the lucky survivors.

[John Redwood]

I saw that ship sink and I saw that ship break in half.

[Paul McGann]

Titanic Ship of Dreams. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Dimbleby]

BBC Sounds Music Radio podcasts. It seems never a day goes by when I don't turn on the radio and hear something about water companies on the brink of going bust. Thames Water, 18 billion quid in debt.

[Kenneth Baker]

And so far not looking like it's going to get help from private investors.

[David Dimbleby]

Or dirty rivers swimming in poo.

[John Redwood]

Not just the ducks and not just here.

[David Dimbleby]

Energy bills going up. Bills to rise by 31 pounds per year over the next five years. Trains not running on time. In case you haven't heard, it's not.

[John Redwood]

The best time to be traveling on the train at the moment.

[David Dimbleby]

And more often than not, when this comes up, people blame one thing, the private companies that have taken over the running of what we think of as our public services.

[Kenneth Baker]

Is it time to re nationalize Thames Water?

[John Redwood]

Nationalise Thames Water.

[David Dimbleby]

Standing with the poor people whose bills are going up and our environment whose sewage is being pumped into our rivers. Nationalisation is a very moderate, reasonable and.

[Kenneth Baker]

Sensible response to the crisis that we are in.

[David Dimbleby]

It's an issue that's not going to go away. But how did it happen in the first place? Because once upon a time, all these services were owned and run by the state. Supposedly for us. Go intercity to London, the most exciting.

[Margaret Thatcher]

City in the world.

[David Dimbleby]

Until Margaret Thatcher and her free market idealists came on the scene.

[Margaret Thatcher]

Millions have already become shareholders and soon there'll be opportunities for millions more in British gas, British Airways, British airports and Rolls Royce. Who says we've run out of steam? We're in our prime.

[David Dimbleby]

This is the story of how that one radical idea reshaped Britain. I'm David Dimbleby and from the history podcast on BBC Radio 4, this is Invisible Hands, the story of the free market revolution. A hidden force that changed Britain. Fore. Episode 3 Selling the Silver In 1979, Margaret Thatcher was elected on a promise of change.

[Margaret Thatcher]

Her Majesty the Queen has asked me to form a new administration and I have accepted.

[David Dimbleby]

We've already heard the story of how two people, Anthony Fisher and then Keith Joseph, helped Smash the political consensus that had lasted since the end of World War II. Now they had their chosen leader in place and she would make a break from the past, embracing capitalism and embracing the free market.

[Margaret Thatcher]

Incentive, courage, achievement. That's what we Conservatives want for Britain.

[David Dimbleby]

Moving away from state control, which had been the rule for the past 40 years.

[Margaret Thatcher]

It is our passionate belief that free enterprise and competition are the engines of prosperity and the guardians of liberty.

[David Dimbleby]

The UK economy was virtually on its knees. There were strikes. As the steel strike enters its 10th week, hope for a settlement is mixed with anxiety. There was inflation. The Government says that such moves would push inflation higher than the present 21%. There was stagnation. And so Thatcher acts quickly and her plan is clear. She needs to get the economy back on track and only then can she bring in the radical policies that will truly unleash the power of the free market. But there's a big problem, because two years into her government, things were not going well. I remember reporting on it. The British economy has often been the graveyard of political ambition. To Mrs. Thatcher and her chancellor, Sir Geoffrey Howe, it must seem a long 22 months since that election in May 1979. Thatcher had raised interest rates and she'd cut public spending to bring down inflation. The Conservatives now face the dreadful prospect of unemployment not only being higher than they expected, but going on climbing for the next two years. But the approach was just not working. By now, the Chancellor would certainly have wished to have something more to show. There were more strikes.

[John Redwood]

The strikers accused the police of brutality. A spokesman for the strike committee said, we will now fight fire with fire.

[David Dimbleby]

There was rioting in the city streets. After seven hours, there's still no end in sight of the rioting and the looting. At the moment, there's no end in sight to the troubles. And they could go on all night. It was the worst start to Thatcher's premiership imaginable. It looked as though she could even end up as just a one term Prime Minister. The unexpectedly deep recession is causing huge problems which have already forced radical Tory policies to falter. And if they faltered, Thatcher would fail in her mission to carry out the dreams of Anthony Fisher, fail to transform Britain, fail to implement the radical restructuring that she believed the country needed. And there was one dream above all the others that now looked as though it would never see the light of day. One idea in particular, which, if it was realised, could transform the entire economic structure of Britain. It was in some ways a dream that began with one man, John Redwood.

[John Redwood]

I am a fellow of Rousseau's College. First elected at the age of 21 when I met Sir Keith Joseph. I have been a Member of Parliament and a cabinet minister.

[David Dimbleby]

John Redwood is now a stalwart of the Conservative Party. But back in the 1970s he. He was a radical. Well in thinking, if not in the way he dressed. He was always smartly got up in gray formal suits and his hair neatly parted. Redwood was famous for a kind of single minded obsession with any theory he had. I remember once he came to supper after he'd been on the Question Time panel and he spent the whole of the evening lecturing us about how the underground railway should run on rubber tires, not on metal cause it was more efficient and quieter. And boy did he go on about it. But before any of this he was brought up a long way from Tory politics in a council house in Canterbury.

[John Redwood]

I think one of my grandfathers was very clearly Labour trade unionist.

[David Dimbleby]

The Redwoods weren't rich, but his father took a big gamble on his family's future by taking out a mortgage in an upmarket part of town. And it led to a life with more opportunity, more comfort and more stuff.

[John Redwood]

You get the fridge and you get the smart cooker and you get the better radio and then you get the television, you get the car.

[David Dimbleby]

Redwood loved all these things and he noticed how these everyday consumer items were always getting better. More efficient fridges, better cookers, faster cars. And then he realized that the progress.

[John Redwood]

Always came from competing private sector companies. The progress didn't seem to come from the state.

[David Dimbleby]

All the comforts his family was enjoying were the result of private companies competing with each other rather than anything to do with the government.

[John Redwood]

I saw the connection and thought this is extremely good system.

[David Dimbleby]

Redwood became a lifelong believer in capitalism. And so after university at Oxford he went to work of course for a bank.

[John Redwood]

I got a fascinating job analysing British companies. Just basically reading balance sheets.

[David Dimbleby]

Doesn't sound very exciting.

[John Redwood]

You had to be a bit of an anorak to read these things.

[David Dimbleby]

John had a knack for figures and he started to become intrigued by one thing, something that no one else seemed to be focusing on.

[John Redwood]

There were amazing scandals, disappointments, idiocies revealed by the documents they had to publish as nationalised industries.

[David Dimbleby]

Nationalized industries. It might seem strange to us now, but right through the 1950s and the 60s and the 70s, water and electricity and gas and railways and ports and freight, many of the necessities of daily life were run by the state. Most of them had been taken into government hands by the Labour Party. After the war this was part of the post war consensus, the idea that government would run these services better than private business. They were all pieces of an enormous sprawling state that seemed to play a role in so many aspects of our lives.

[John Redwood]

Hello, gas service.

[David Dimbleby]

If you smell gas at home, at work or in the street, please report it at once. Advertisements on television assured us we were in safe hands. And remember, we're on call 24 hours a day. The government would keep the lights on and the gas running hot. One of your gas. But nationalization didn't deliver all it promised. Gas was cheap, ok, but getting repairs done, you had to wait for weeks. Trains never seemed to run on time.

[John Redwood]

They don't cancel one train, they cancel too. So instead of waiting 20 minutes, I wait 40 minutes.

[David Dimbleby]

In the summer we ran out of water. Hose pipe bands were a fact of life. When rationing began only three weeks ago, the Southwest Water Authority forecast it would last for several months. And choice was very limited. I remember trying to get a new phone installed in my house, had to call up BT be put on a waiting list and then had to wait forever it seemed, until one became available. It was a very inefficient system but we all accepted it just as the way things were. But John Redwood didn't agree. Sitting in his office in the city poring over the figures, he had a moment of epiphany, a realization based on his love of capitalism.

[John Redwood]

These things could be an awful lot better if they had private capital or competition or better management.

[David Dimbleby]

He concluded that the country would be much better off if gas and water and electricity were taken out of the hands of the state and sold on the open market. A free market, just like buying a loaf of bread.

[John Redwood]

You can go to any one of half a dozen shops in your local town. I don't think you'll ever find they're short of bread. Every day there's new fresh bread for you and you have a choice of loaves and a choice of prices.

[David Dimbleby]

Private business did a good job with other essential things as John saw in his own life. So why couldn't this work for buying gas or a telephone?

[John Redwood]

And sometimes I go further and say well actually the things you're proudest of or you most like that you've bought. They're all supplied by free enterprise.

[David Dimbleby]

Competition would bring lower prices, innovation and more choice.

[John Redwood]

That's free enterprise magic for you.

[David Dimbleby]

Pretty soon he was writing pamphlets about this idea, an idea that would become known as privatization. Eventually his work caught the attention of Keith Joseph, the so called mad monk and one Day, Keith asked John to turn up at the House of Commons and present his ideas to Margaret Thatcher, the new leader of the Conservative Party. A table was laid out for lunch and waiting for his turn to speak, John, maybe nibbling on a cucumber sandwich, gathered his thoughts.

[John Redwood]

And I think I had 15 minutes or so in order to present what I thought should be done.

[David Dimbleby]

He was understandably nervous because Thatcher's cross examinations were legendary. All eyes were turned on him.

[John Redwood]

We had a really good lively exchange and I was just beginning to enjoy it.

[David Dimbleby]

Redwood started to pitch his ideas. He urged her, sell the nationalized industries, take them to the stock market. How can we achieve the free market dream that you have when the government's controlling so much of the economy?

[John Redwood]

And then she looked at me and she said, Mr. Edward, she said, this is all very well, but they won't let me do that.

[David Dimbleby]

It was simply too radical, too ambitious even for her. So privatisation wasn't on the agenda in the run up to the 1979 election, or for that matter through the first few years of her government, when things were going so badly with the economy. But then in the spring of 1982, everything changed.

[Harold Macmillan]

The Argentine government says that its armed.

[David Dimbleby]

Forces have invaded the British administered Falkland Islands. The advanced assault force of marines landed just after midnight from a large fleet of ships in position off the windswept islands. The conflict was soon over. Just over two months after the invasion, Thatcher addressed the nation.

[Margaret Thatcher]

Secretary of State for Defence has just come over to give me some very good news and I think you'd like to have it at once.

[David Dimbleby]

It was a decisive military victory that restored national pride and, and restored Thatcher's authority. Thank you very much.

[Margaret Thatcher]

Let's rejoice at that news and congratulate our forces and the marines. Good night, sir.

[David Dimbleby]

War on. A year later, I was back in the studio anchoring the coverage of the 1983 election. I watched as Thatcher reaped the rewards of her Falklands victory. The landslide for Mrs. Thatcher means that she has a majority over all parties, very similar to the majority Labour had in 1945. Now, John Redwood was following all this very carefully, still at his desk job in the city. But a few days after the election, he gets a summons.

[John Redwood]

And so I go to see him.

[David Dimbleby]

Down the street, another meeting, and instead.

[John Redwood]

Of having to have an argument with her, she just looked at me and she said, john, I want you to come work for me.

[David Dimbleby]

Redwood hesitated.

[John Redwood]

I said, well, that's very sweet of you, but I've got a really interesting job and before I could get any further, she had my chairman on the phone and was telling them that they'd got to release me for a bit because she needed me to come and sort out a privatization program.

[David Dimbleby]

Thatcher had now put privatization back on the political agenda. Now it was up to John Redwood to find a way of turning his radical ideas into reality.

[Paul McGann]

Titanic Ship of Dreams, the new podcast from the award winning Noiser Network. Join me, Paul McGann, as we explore life and death on Titanic. I'll delve into my own family story following my great uncle Jimmy as he tries to escape the engine room. We'll hear the harrowing tales of the victims and the testimonies of the lucky survivors.

[John Redwood]

I saw that ship sink and I saw that ship break in half.

[Paul McGann]

Titanic, Ship of dreams. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts.

[David Dimbleby]

John Redwood's mission wasn't going to be easy. Privatisation was a daring reconstruction of the British economy and there was a huge amount of opposition, especially from the more established wing of Margaret Thatcher's own party. For many of them, it wasn't just a matter of whether it would work, it was actually a matter of principle.

[Harold Macmillan]

This is a great country, so don't let's be ashamed to say so.

[David Dimbleby]

That's Harold Macmillan, the former Prime Minister and distinguished elder statesman of the Conservative Party. He led the outcry. He was appalled by the idea of privatization. To him, it wasn't just a mistake, it was a betrayal.

[Harold Macmillan]

It is very common with individuals or estates when they run into financial difficulties to find that they have to sell some of their assets.

[David Dimbleby]

What Macmillan was arguing was that once you sell the country's assets, you can never get them back. And he amused the House of Lords by comparing it to a stately home facing bankruptcy.

[Harold Macmillan]

First the George and Silver go in, all that nice furniture it used to be in the saloon and then the Canalettos go.

[David Dimbleby]

But Thatcher was determined. She'd beaten the establishment before and she was going to do it again. So she put John Redwood in an office in Downing street where he covered the walls in charts and in spreadsheets, looking for a target, the place to begin their revolution.

[Harold Macmillan]

I was part of the state, I was Soviet as regards nationalized industries.

[David Dimbleby]

That's Kenneth Baker, Minister for Information Technology. He's saying he's like a Soviet because he had total control. He signed everything off from building a telephone exchange to deciding the price of stamps.

[Harold Macmillan]

I thought it was absurd for a minister to be responsible for all of those things.

[David Dimbleby]

Which made Baker the perfect person to head up the first major privatisation. British Telecom operates the world's fourth largest telephone system. They chose bt. It's rich, it's powerful and it's growing and handles more than 60 million calls every day. And if privatization could succeed with something so big and so essential, it could succeed anywhere. Its assets, like the famous tower, are worth some 16,000 million pounds and Telecom employ nearly a quarter of a million people. The problem is, it wasn't just the Tory moderates, Harold Macmillan and people who agreed with him who were against all this. It seemed as though the whole post war establishment was determined to frustrate Thatcher's free marketeers.

[Harold Macmillan]

There was no great automatic enthusiasm. Lots of people said, look, it's absurd.

[David Dimbleby]

First the unions and they'd always said.

[Harold Macmillan]

We can't have any private people because it would endanger the lives of our workers.

[David Dimbleby]

New untested equipment being brought in and untrained engineers.

[Harold Macmillan]

Because there's somebody on a cold February night has tried to repair a telephone line and somebody comes in, interrupts him and electrocutes him, he'd be killed.

[David Dimbleby]

And then there was opposition from the people who actually ran bt, the managers and the bosses. They hated the idea of change. But John Redwood thought that they could be persuaded. He remembers sitting around a table with some of these people and tempting them.

[John Redwood]

I said, yes, I think what's going to happen is that when we privatize you, you're going to put your salaries up and grant yourself enormous bonuses and this is going to be a huge embarrassment to the government. And that, I think, turned it.

[David Dimbleby]

Redwood says the bosses suddenly got pound signs in their eyes.

[John Redwood]

I think they suddenly thought this wasn't such a bad idea after all.

[David Dimbleby]

Finally, opposition came from a very surprising place.

[John Redwood]

And when I went in I was bitterly disappointed because instead of finding a group of people who were telling me how they wanted to do it, I was still finding people who were pretty skeptical about the whole thing.

[David Dimbleby]

These weren't union men, they weren't managers, they were the City bankers.

[John Redwood]

And they said to me, you know, BT is just too big and we've never done a big issue on this scale.

[David Dimbleby]

The big issue was the selling of the shares. The bankers in the City were saying, we can't do this. Selling just half of BT would be worth £4 billion. And the city banker said, we can't find you enough buyers for this number of shares. They just don't exist. And this is where Thatcher's government had their big idea. They wouldn't just sell these shares to big business or to investors. They'd offer them to the British people.

[Margaret Thatcher]

The advertising executives in this room are.

[David Dimbleby]

Busily spending 7.6 million pounds worth of.

[Margaret Thatcher]

Advertising budget to convince the great British public that buying shares in British Telecom goes straight to the top of the shopping list.

[David Dimbleby]

Nowadays many people invest in stocks and shares but this wasn't true in the early 80s. Investing was still thought of as something for the wealthy. The bankers didn't think people could cope or would even want to own shares. Thatcher disagreed.

[Harold Macmillan]

Reserve your prospectus now.

[David Dimbleby]

Advertisements appeared overnight. It will tell you how much the shares cost and how you buy them, urging the public to sign up to the sale of BT shares in just four months time.

[Harold Macmillan]

Ring 027-227-2272 and find out about sharing British Telecoms future.

[David Dimbleby]

Newspapers, television, billboards. No part of British life was safe from the advertising campaign.

[Kenneth Baker]

There's some examples of page three girls talking about the sale of British Telecom. There's this amazing one where the model is wrapped in a telephone cord.

[David Dimbleby]

This is the historian Amy Edwards. She studies the culture of capitalism and investment and she's written about the BT privatization campaign.

[Kenneth Baker]

This isn't something that happens in a scary wood paneled office in the City summer with a stock broker, which is someone that you've never even met, let alone could afford to hire.

[David Dimbleby]

The services of this campaign is for everyone.

[Kenneth Baker]

I want to be in on the action and you can see that in the advertising campaign in newspapers. They basically have a countdown. So every couple of days in the press there would be another advert which would be like 21 days till the sale of British Telecom. Don't forget to get your share applications in 13 days in sale a British Telecom. Well, don't forget to get your share.

[David Dimbleby]

Applications in before it's too late.

[Kenneth Baker]

It's like the countdown to the millennium or something.

[David Dimbleby]

After three months preparation, the sale was ready. Thatcher and Redwood and Baker had done their best to overcome all the obstacles in their path. But still no one knew if it was going to work. December 3rd, 1984 came round the day the shares were going on sale.

[Harold Macmillan]

I followed it closely and there was a wonderful party in the Post Office tower which I went to.

[David Dimbleby]

Kenneth Baker emerges from the lift into a bustling party of executives and journalists and government ministers. And then on a screen near the bar, the numbers strike start flashing up. 3.7 billion pounds raised. The room was buzzing with excitement.

[Harold Macmillan]

Boy, very boring. Because they realized that they had their freedom.

[David Dimbleby]

Kenneth Baker had pulled off what many people thought was impossible.

[Harold Macmillan]

I was rather proud of it in a way because lots of things you do in politics are not a success. But this was a success by any standard.

[David Dimbleby]

The next morning, the numbers were staggering. Over 2 million Britons were now shareholders in BT and they made money from.

[Harold Macmillan]

It, there's no question about that. And so there was a popular thing to do.

[David Dimbleby]

And now Thatcher realized that selling off these companies wasn't just about breaking the shackles of government control. It was much bigger than that. It could change the country's mindset, turn everyone in Britain into a capitalist, make capitalism the country's creed.

[Margaret Thatcher]

Popular capitalism is a crusade, a crusade to enfranchise the many in the economic life of Britain.

[David Dimbleby]

Thatcher believed that free market capitalism could work only if everyone had a direct stake in it.

[Margaret Thatcher]

Our purpose as conservatives is to extend opportunity and choice to those who have so far been denied them through owning.

[Kenneth Baker]

Homes, owning property, owning shares in the company you work for, owning shares in other companies.

[David Dimbleby]

And in so doing, they create a new society.

[Kenneth Baker]

This is also the period of the Cold War and the fear of communism. How you get people to buy into a capitalist system and how you keep people away from socialism.

[Margaret Thatcher]

Soon there will be more shareholders than trade unionists in this country.

[David Dimbleby]

Thatcher would create a nation of shareholders.

[Margaret Thatcher]

We Conservatives are returning power to the people. That is the way to one nation, one people.

[David Dimbleby]

And BT was just the beginning. Next up, British Gas.

[Margaret Thatcher]

These British Gas shares. If you see Sid, tell him, will you?

[David Dimbleby]

I remember Sid. He was everywhere. He was on the billboards, he was on the radio. You couldn't get away from Sid. Tell Sid. Tell Sid what? Tell Sid, whoever he is, that shares in British Gas are on sale.

[Paul McGann]

Well, if Sid hasn't heard by now.

[David Dimbleby]

He'S almost too late. Applications for a share in British Gas have to be in by 10:00 this morning. Soon everyone will have a chance to share in the shares of British Gas. And if Sid wanted to, after he'd bought shares in British Gas, he could buy shares in British airports, in the water industry, even in Rolls Royce. Privatisation now felt relentless, inevitable, an idea with momentum. By the end of the 1980s, the scale of transformation was staggering. Sixty billion pounds had been raised by selling off state companies and 15 million Britons were now shareholders. Britain was embracing the free market, helping to realize the dreams of men like Anthony Fisher and Keith Joseph and John Redwood. This wasn't just an economic shift. It was a cultural revolution, a redefinition of Britain's relationship with government, a redefinition of the country itself.

[Margaret Thatcher]

The old Britain of the 1970s, with its strikes, poor productivity, low investment, winters of discontent. Above all, its gloom, its pessimism, its sheer defeatism that Britain is gone.

[David Dimbleby]

And the foundations were also laid for the next revolution, because with a quarter of people in the country owning shares, profit had become king and another old world was waiting to be shaken up.

[Harold Macmillan]

We were in a little prison and it just changed the face of business, industry and commerce. It was bish bosh, bish bosh, you know. And we did loads and loads of business.

[David Dimbleby]

That's next time on Invisible Hands. Invisible Hands is from the history podcast, Radio 4's Home for Story driven history documentaries. And if you subscribe on BBC Sounds and switch on push notifications, we'll tell you as soon as new episodes of this series become available. Invisible Hands is a samizdat audio production for BBC Radio 4 and the History podcast. It's hosted by me, David Dimbleby. The producer is Joe Barrett. The executive producers and story editors are Joe Sykes and Dasha Licitsina. Sound designed by Peregrine Andrews. The commissioning editor at Radio 4 is Dan Clark. And our thanks to Phil Tinline, Peggy Sutton and Leo Schick. I'm Matthew side and Sideways, my podcast.

[John Redwood]

From BBC Radio 4 brings you stories.

[David Dimbleby]

Of seeing the world differently. From that moment on, I feel like my life and the way that I view life itself just shifted, literally. Stories about the ideas that shape our lives. If a new missile had come down and killed us all, it wouldn't have mattered. It was just me in the moment.

[John Redwood]

Of bliss in the middle of a war zone.

[David Dimbleby]

Stories about everything from the ethics of using AI to simulate conversations with the dead to viewing decay as a vehicle for rebirth. Listen to Sideways first on BBC Sounds.

[Paul McGann]

Titanic Ship of Dreams, the new podcast from the award winning Noiser Network. Join me, Paul McGann, as we explore life and death on Titanic. I'll delve into my own family story following my great uncle Jimmy as he tries to escape the engine room. We'll hear the harrowing tales of the victims and the testimonies of the lucky survivors.

[John Redwood]

I saw that ship sink and I saw that ship break in half.

[Paul McGann]

Titanic ship of dreams Listen wherever you get your podcasts.