Sixty Years of Hurt: 3. England v Hooligans

Summary

The History Podcast – Sixty Years of Hurt: 3. England v Hooligans

BBC Radio 4
Host: David Baddiel
Date: May 30, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, David Baddiel leads an incisive exploration of football hooliganism and its role in shaping – and reflecting – English identity. Through a mix of historical analysis, personal recollections, and expert commentary from fans, writers, and former hooligans, the episode traces the evolution of the English football crowd from the polite passion of 1966 to the violent outbreaks of the late 20th century, and finally to the more inclusive (but still fraught) present. The conversation boldly interrogates the links between violence, nationalism, racism, and belonging, and how football both exposes and transforms what it means to be English.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. From Polite Crowds to the 'English Disease'

• 1966 World Cup Final:
  • Early England fans were "polite and orderly."
  • Fans' celebrations were benign, not aggressive (01:48–03:00).
  • David Baddiel: “Even at the moment of victory ... it’s benign, it’s a celebration, hardly in need of policing. They don’t even stop the game.” (02:40)
• The Rise of Hooliganism:
  • Post-1966, fan behavior shifts rapidly; public order gives way to outbreaks of violence (03:14+).
  • Statistical surge: From 13 incidents per season (1946-1960) to 6,000 by 1988–89 (04:49).

2. Anatomy of Football Hooliganism

• Cass Pennant (Former hooligan, West Ham):
  • "They’re not born hooligans. They start off as football fans... It’s gang culture... Camaraderie, brotherhood, community, identity." (04:13)
  • Hooliganism is a subculture rooted in social belonging more than criminality.
• David Goldblatt (Football historian):
  • Football as "a volatile, emotional, super oppositional kind of theater of identity" (05:26).
  • Hooliganism’s appeal: part fun, part protest, part search for identity and control in a disordered society.

3. War, Memory, and English National Myth-Making

• Nick Hancock & David Baddiel:
  • Generational divides influence attitudes: those with close memories of WWII don’t mythologize violence (07:12–07:46).
  • "It’s always the people that are further away that start to romanticize it." (07:40, Hancock)
  • Chants like “Two world wars and one World Cup” emerge with post-war generations.
• David Goldblatt:
  • English fan culture often channels status anxiety, leading to violence and racism as a way to assert a threatened identity (08:35–09:07).

4. Racism, Far-Right Influence, and the Exclusion of Minorities

• Cass Pennant:
  • The late ‘70s saw the National Front exploit football grounds for recruitment, intensifying racist abuse (09:21).
  • Black fans and players were vulnerable, unsupported by campaigns (“no kick out racism... we were on our own.”)
• Asif Burhan (Football writer):
  • Ties between England’s travelling support and far-right elements (09:48).
  • Example: National Front fans refusing to acknowledge John Barnes’ famous Brazil goal (10:03).
• Abdul Malik Al Nasir (Writer):
  • Traumatic childhood experiences of racism at matches: “I ran home, got on the bus, cried all the way home... I never watched a football match again after that.” (11:05)
• David Baddiel:
  • Personal recollection: anti-Semitic abuse at Chelsea as a Jewish boy (11:39).

5. Hooliganism, National Identity, and Masculinity

• Kevin Day (Comedian/Writer):
  • Personal confession: drawn to the National Front as a way to assert identity, and the camaraderie of hooliganism (12:33–13:41).
  • Hooliganism as a self-esteem crutch, particularly in times of national (and footballing) decline.
  • “If we can’t do it on the field, we’ll do it off the field.” (13:53)
  • Baddiel: “Well, a kind of self esteem thing that can only find itself esteem in violence.” (14:23)
• Nick Hancock:
  • "It’s not just their self esteem... it’s the one thing they have that they think they can control." (14:50)

6. British vs. English: Defining Differences

• Harry Ritchie & Ellis James:
  • Scotland and Wales define themselves in opposition to England, cultivating a celebratory, less pressured atmosphere (15:44–16:58).
  • James Graham: “The whole shtick of being a member of the Tartan army is anti Englishness.” (15:57)
  • England’s “constant state of disappointment and despondency.”

7. Why Did Hooliganism Subside?

• David Goldblatt:
  • MDMA culture of raves in the 1980s drew youth away from violence towards dance and solidarity (18:49).
  • Older demographics, policing, CCTV also played roles.
• Nick Hancock:
  • MDMA dampened the violent edge compared to alcohol or cocaine (19:19).
• Online Rage:
  • Much of the aggression now migrates to online spaces, transforming physical violence into digital vitriol (19:31).

8. Exporting Hooliganism

• Cass Pennant:
  • Russians: “England, thank you. You are the motherland of hooligan.” (19:51)
• Ellis James & David Baddiel:
  • Global spread fueled by media like the film Green Street (20:20).

9. The End of Whiteness? Englishness, Diversity, and Belonging

• David Goldblatt:
  • Football's meritocracy and multiculturalism undermined exclusionary ideas of “Englishness” (21:18–22:40).
  • “If one wanted... a nativist version of Englishness... the England team just makes it impossible to equate Englishness and whiteness.”
• Barney Ronay (Sportswriter):
  • “Football expresses integration better than any other part of society.” (22:40)
  • Points out the contrast with British elite institutions.
• Roy Williams (Playwright):
  • Black players like Viv Anderson, Laurie Cunningham were role models in a society with few visible black heroes (23:13).
  • On seeing black players succeed: “They were...my only positive role models I saw around me. And those guys, they were it.” (23:42)
• David Goldblatt:
  • Stories like Ian Wright proudly singing the national anthem serve as powerful acts of reclamation and pride (24:28–25:05).

10. National Songs, Hope, and the New Englishness

• Euro 96 as Turning Point:
  • Cameras shift from players to the crowd, fans become part of the spectacle (25:40).
  • Kevin Day: “It wasn’t about beating the Scots, it was about being English... That was a seminal moment with the identity of English football.” (27:48–28:21)
• Baddiel:
  • “There’s a darker version of entitlement and insecurity in hooliganism... But, at their best, as in Euro 96, England fans can find a way of accepting calmly...what England is now – a small island with a lot of history, most of it in the past.” (28:50)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Cass Pennant:
  • “They’re not born hooligans. They start off as football fans. It’s gang culture... Camaraderie, brotherhood... Community, identity.” (04:13)
• David Goldblatt:
  • “Football is a very volatile, emotional, super oppositional kind of theatre of identity...” (05:26)
• Nick Hancock:
  • “It’s always the people that are further away that start to romanticize [war].” (07:40)
• Abdul Malik Al Nasir:
  • “I literally ran home, got on the bus, cried all the way home... Never watched a football match again after that.” (11:05)
• Kevin Day:
  • “For the first time in my memory, it wasn’t about beating the Scots, it was about being English.” (27:48)
• David Goldblatt:
  • “If you wanted to argue for a nativist version of Englishness... the England team just makes it impossible to equate Englishness and whiteness.” (22:40)

---

Important Segments & Timestamps

• Polite Order at 1966 World Cup: 01:48–03:00
• Statistical Rise of Hooliganism: 04:49
• Cass Pennant on Hooliganism as Gang Culture: 04:13
• Racism and the Far Right in Football: 09:21–11:39
• Personal Traumata of Minority Fans: 10:37–11:57
• Kevin Day on National Front, Identity: 12:33–13:41
• Euro 96: A New Kind of Englishness: 25:40–28:21

---

Tone

The episode balances sober analysis with first-person storytelling, often deploying dry English irony and wit (notably through Baddiel, Hancock, and Day), but never losing sight of the seriousness of issues like racism and violence.

---

Conclusion

This episode is a nuanced, sometimes moving, sometimes unsettling journey through the changing face of English football fandom and its complex relationship with national identity. The contributors bring a richness of experience – whether as former hooligans, historians, comedians, or fans who experienced exclusion – while Baddiel deftly weaves history, sociology, and pop culture into a compelling narrative about England’s turbulent search for itself through the beautiful game.

Transcript

[David Baddiel]

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

[Aramco Advertiser]

What if a marginal gain unlocked greater performance? What if an insight in data could change everything? At Aramco, our focus on detail helps us deliver reliable energy to millions across the world. Because margins aren't marginal. They're where we can truly push the limits of what's possible. Aramco, an integrated energy and chemicals company. Learn [e-mail] ever invest in something that

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Like those $5 roses at a gas station? Or a secondhand piece of technology that breaks in the first 10 minutes? Marketers know that feeling. We optimize for the numbers that look great. Impressions reach and reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not so great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bullspend. Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO. LinkedIn Ads generates the highest roas of all major ad networks. You'll reach the right buyers because you can target by company, industry, job title and more. So cut the bullspend. Advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a 250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com broadcast. That's LinkedIn.com broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. Wembley is just a mass of waving Union Jacks.

[David Baddiel]

Sorry, but we've gone all the way back to the 1966 World cup final again. Only this time we're not on the pitch, we're in the stands.

[Nick Hancock]

The really interesting thing about the 66 to me anyways, people are wearing ties.

[Kevin Day]

It was the World cup final.

[Nick Hancock]

Yeah, exactly. The Queen was there.

[Kevin Day]

She was there. Who knows, you could have bumped into her at any moment.

[David Baddiel]

Nick Hancock and Chris England are correct. The thing you notice about the Fans at the 66 World cup final is that even in a game of great passion, they are polite and orderly. They sing Rule Britannia and God Save the Queen. And when Ramsay triumphs for he's a jolly good fellow, even at the moment of victory, when the fans emotions famously topple over into something like disorder and there's people on the pitch at the

[Kevin Day]

moment, it's shoot, it's a go by Hearst.

[David Baddiel]

It's benign, it's a celebration, hardly in need of policing. They don't even stop the game. The notion that that site might be more than just some people on the pitch, that this is a pitch invasion, an Outpouring not of joy, but of mass aggression. It's yet to come, but come it does, and remarkably quickly after 1966. English soccer fans have been involved in more trouble on the streets of Stuttgart tonight.

[Asif Burhan]

And that once again our international reputation is so damaged by events such as this.

[David Baddiel]

In the 70s and 80s, Englishness as represented by a visible, much focused on section of England football fans changes exponentially. And the thing it leaves behind might be said to be, I suppose, innocence. It leaves behind the little flags and ties of that green and pleasant land and turns its steel toe capped feet towards the dark satanic mills of violence. England invented the beautiful game and exported it to the world. We all also invented and exported to the world an opposite to the beautiful game, a phenomenon that became known as the English disease. I'm David Baddiel and for the history podcast this is 60 years of hurt. Episode 3 England versus hooligans.

[Cass Pennant]

Name's Cass Pennant. I mean, you just Google it and probably West Ham's best known thing.

[David Baddiel]

Actually, if you do Google Cass, you get his Wikipedia page, which calls him a writer and former football hooligan.

[Cass Pennant]

They're not born hooligans. They start off as football fans. The other thing is, it's gang culture. They won't admit it, but it's gang culture. It doesn't matter. It's Hells Angels or football angles. The ingredients are the same. Camaraderie, brotherhood, you know what I mean? Community, identity. All them things only takes place at football. Taking away the football, they go back to normal person in society. They're not criminals. The elections are criminals.

[David Baddiel]

Do you think that some people, some skinheads perhaps, go to football matches just for the trouble?

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

In a majority of cases, yeah.

[David Baddiel]

That's how a lot of them get

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

angry and start throwing pennies, tin cans, bottles or anything.

[David Baddiel]

Football hooliganism wasn't unknown in the early days. In 1909, a riot broke out at the Scottish FA cup final between Rangers and Celtic fans and there were over a hundred arrests. But meanwhile, between 1946 and 1960, there were an average of 13 incidents reported per season. By 1988-89, by which time English clubs had been banned in Europe, it had gone up to 6,000. So it's clearly got something to do with modernity. Football historian David Goldblatt.

[David Goldblatt]

Football is a very volatile, emotional, super oppositional kind of theater of identity. It's kind of made when you've got large numbers of uncontrolled young men and a certain amount of alcohol in one place. What really, of course, gets the coverage is then when it becomes associated with the England team. And I would say, you know, it's the early 1980s, it's Euro 1980 and 84, that this really begins to happen. People kind of tend to either go senseless destruction or kind of, you know, politicized invasion. I mean, I think it's also worth remembering what's going on here. Is that hard as it is to imagine, for many, there's a lot of fun being had.

[David Baddiel]

David is right. Part of the Englishness of the English football hooligan, particularly the traveling one, is that a fight can be seen as just an integral part of the English weekend away. Nick Hancock, again, there's always been people

[Nick Hancock]

that enjoy a good ruck. That's undoubtedly true. I think, from an English point of view, what I find interesting about hooliganism is that I think public dissent is a very English thing and the Proms is a very English thing. And English football hooliganism is a combination of public dissent and the Proms. Basically, it's people wearing English shirts going somewhere else, singing Raw Britannia and kicking people. So there is a sort of Englishness to it.

[David Baddiel]

In a strange way, however, I'm gonna say that I cannot imagine that those 1966 men in their caps, or latterly in their shirt and ties, if they had been able to, if they had, if technology and money had been different and they had been. I can't imagine them really causing trouble.

[Nick Hancock]

Well, I can't either. But then again, there was a war between 1939 and 45 that was troublesome and they were heavily involved in that. Do you know what I mean? I don't imagine you come back from war and want trouble. There is no way in the world that that crowd, that those people in that ground, 100,000 of them would have sang two World wars and one World Cup. People who have a direct link to war are not flippant about it.

[Barney Ronay]

Right?

[David Baddiel]

Right.

[Nick Hancock]

Do you know what I mean? It's always the people that are further away that start to romanticize it.

[David Baddiel]

This is a really good thought from Nick. When war is close memory, you don't mythologize or ironise it because it's real in your mind. It's too frightening and the deaths are too deserving of respect. But once that goes and war becomes a story, then it becomes something which can be ground flippantly into the national identity mill. And actually, that chant Nick refers to, say welcome.

[Kevin Day]

Say well, welcome.

[David Baddiel]

Heard here in 2012, after England fans were specifically asked by the authorities not to sing it. Yeah, that always works. The first instances of it are heard in the late 60s, round about the time when most football fans would have started to become the post war generation.

[David Goldblatt]

What's going on and what does this say about Englishness? Well, clearly there is a strain of English national identity that looks down and is contemptuous of foreigners and treats football as an opportunity to fight past battles, to assert contemporary and aggressive identities.

[David Baddiel]

Part of what's happening with hooliganism is that England is in decline in the late 70s and early 80s.

[Nick Hancock]

If you're going to get rid of

[David Baddiel]

this kind of thing, you have to

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

change society, give these people a sense of possibility.

[David Baddiel]

And one way of dealing with the status anxiety that generates is just to erase it with violence. Which is why hooliganism also brought with it racism. Both are rooted in an anxious exclusionary nationalism.

[Cass Pennant]

By 79, the National Front tried to move into football, but they see the football arena as a breeding ground for new recruitment. So they started appearing at grounds with Bulldog. To me, the football arena is a reflection on society. That's just more exaggerated. Yeah. And that was the times to be a black football fan was very difficult in times because there's no kick out racism, no show racing the red card. You know, we were on our own.

[Asif Burhan]

I think it's a historical thing. I mean, the England travelling support was historically linked to far right elements.

[David Baddiel]

Football writer Asif Burhan, who I'm talking to at half time at an England game.

[Asif Burhan]

It's a famous story that after John Barnes scored that incredible goal in Rio

[David Baddiel]

de Janeiro, a friendly versus Brazil in 1984. Go and watch it. It's one of the greatest England goals of all time.

[Asif Burhan]

There were members of the National Front that were on the same plane as the England team who refused to acknowledge that a black player had scored for England. The result, 10 instead of 2 nil.

[David Baddiel]

Football can, I think, feel like a way of belonging, of feeling English. But at the same time, if other football fans aggressively reject you because they perceive you to be different, that can be extremely traumatizing.

[Abdul Malik Al Nasir]

When I turned up at a game one Saturday afternoon to see Liverpool and West Brom at Holman Anfield, the writer

[David Baddiel]

Abdul Malik Al Nasir had been as a child, a massive football fan.

[Abdul Malik Al Nasir]

The chants started, the monkey chants, the bananas getting thrown onto the pitch when Laurie Cunningham came out.

[David Baddiel]

Laurie Cunningham of West Bromwich Albion, a brilliant natural footballer. The second black player to be capped for England after Viv Anderson.

[Abdul Malik Al Nasir]

And then there was this racist chant of the National Front is a white man's front. Join the National Front. Zeke Heil and all these grown men in the stands were all doing Nazi salutes and shouting this. And I'm nine years old, I'm half the size of these guys. So they start fighting on the terraces. So beer bottles were getting thrown, glasses were being thrown, and I literally ran home, got on the bus, cried all the way home. When I got to my house, I literally just took all my Panini football stickers out, ripped them up, threw them in the bin. I never watched a football match again after that.

[David Baddiel]

By the way I relate to it. I used to go to Chelsea with my brother. So we didn't go with adults. I just went with my brother and it was hideous. At Chelsea with National Front and Sieg Heiling and as two Jewish kids, that was incredibly upsetting and traumatic. And I didn't go for a long time after I had those experiences.

[Abdul Malik Al Nasir]

Yeah. I got to the point where I felt so traumatized by that experience that I just couldn't. It wasn't just that I couldn't watch football. I couldn't even play football. I just completely disassociated myself from the game.

[David Baddiel]

Meanwhile, some of the England fans getting involved with racist and nationalist movements around football in the 70s and 80s would themselves have been doing it to reinforce their own perhaps confused sense of Englishness. Comedian, writer and performer of the much acclaimed Edinburgh One Man Show. I was a teenage racist. Kevin Day.

[Kevin Day]

I was in the National Front, but in the same way as I was a football hooligan in that I never went anywhere near where there was any trouble. Basically I enjoyed the rush and the. The thrill of it happening in the same postcode. I still feel, even at this far distance away, though I'm atoning.

[David Baddiel]

Right.

[Kevin Day]

I still be clear.

[David Baddiel]

You don't have to tone to me.

[Kevin Day]

No, no, I know, but I seriously. No, just in life in general, I still feel that I'm atoning for it. I've got the same feeling going to National Front meetings and National Front marches as I did going to away games. That kind of almost camaraderie, almost belonging. Belonging. I suppose with me it was a very personal asserting my non Irish identity.

[David Baddiel]

Right.

[Kevin Day]

I was brought up in an Irish household, so the National Front thing became a very easy way of saying, no, this is. This is me literally wrapping yourself in the flag. But it's. Yeah. With the certainty that only a 16 year old.

[David Baddiel]

Yeah.

[Kevin Day]

Can have. Yeah. Somebody who's floundering. I'm happy to admit I still flounder. Now, in terms of identity,

[David Baddiel]

when things in general are bad, football should provide an outlet. Things in general were bad in England in the 70s and early 80s. Sadly, the football was worse.

[Kevin Day]

I think there was a thing in the 70s that the rise of hooliganism, part of the thing attached to the England team was that the England team itself was failing in that time between 1970 and 1982, didn't qualify for the World cup at all and did badly in the Euros as well. And I think it was assertive as well. I think it was wanting to assert that we were still a thing and that we're here and if we can't do it on the field, we'll do it off the field.

[David Baddiel]

But you said an interesting thing there, which is like some people clearly feel that's the way to express their love of their country. Love is an interesting word there because I don't think it is love of country, but I think it is, is a kind of, well, a kind of self esteem thing that can only find itself esteem in violence. Because part of what the violence is, is, well, I feel really depressed and sad because my team is lost. How can I restore my self esteem? I'll go and smash up a bar.

[Kevin Day]

I think self esteem is a crucial phrase there. It makes life so much easier. When that is threatened, you literally are pulling the rug from under their feet. It's not just their self esteem, it's just their. It's the one thing they have that they think they can control. It gives you this bizarre sense of control over something you have no control over whatsoever. Because for most of us in our lives, we have no control of it, but we think we can control England. England winning the World cup became this huge thing that turned into England deserved to win the World Cup. And the fury of England football fans who missed out on that, but were led to believe by the press, by England managers, every four years that we were going to win it again. Most people can go, that's annoying, that's frustrating. But there are some people, the only way they can show that annoyance, that frustration, is by hurting somebody else.

[David Baddiel]

On the upside, as we know from previous episodes, other countries in Britain are very keen to define themselves against whatever England is. Hooliganism was very helpful there. Writer and journalist Harry Ritchie.

[James Graham]

At times, I've often thought about what would supporting Scotland be like if England didn't exist. I mean, the whole shtick of being a member of the Tartan army is anti Englishness. It's to show that we're the nice Guys and where we go, we have our great big party.

[Ellis James]

When England turn up, they're there to win it. And so anything less than winning it is disappointing.

[David Baddiel]

Welsh comedian Ellis James relates the different national behaviours to different explanations, expectations.

[Ellis James]

And then you combine disappointment with a lot of booze and that's when it can become unpleasant.

[David Baddiel]

I think that's incredibly true.

[Ellis James]

Whereas I think that, you know, we were very. We were rubbish at the 2022 World Cup. It's a party and it's fun. Whereas I've always found, with my experience of England supporters, they're just in a constant state of disappointment and despondency because they haven't won anything since 1966. Whereas the Scots realistically don't expect to win this coming World Cup. You're having fun not because of the result, but despite the result.

[David Baddiel]

One problem, though, for our particular Scottish and Welsh contributors is that they both live now in England and have children who might identify as English. If England did win the World cup and your son is overjoyed, how are you not going to be crushing if you're not in some way celebrating with him?

[James Graham]

That is an eventuality I'm never going to have to face because that would mean England winning something.

[David Baddiel]

David, if Wales don't get in the World cup, like, they just have not, will you in any way be supporting England?

[Ellis James]

I won't be supporting England. I will be watching it. If my kids support England, obviously that's fine. I live in England. I've got an awful lot of English friends, some of my best friends in English.

[Aramco Advertiser]

What if a marginal gain unlocked greater performance? What if an insight in data could change everything? At Aramco, our focus on detail helps us deliver reliable energy to millions across the world. Because margins aren't marginal, they're where we can truly push the limits of what's possible. Aramco, an integrated energy and chemicals company. Learn [e-mail].

[David Baddiel]

Perhaps because our national identity is so slippery, we as a country have originated many other types of identity subcultures punk, mods, goth, skinheads, new lads, etc, etc and it's possible to see hooliganism as essentially one of these, especially in the way it began to fade. Do you think that's to do with the obvious reasons? All seashore stadiums, policing, cctv, a demographic of football fandom that's getting older, or are there more complex cultural reasons?

[David Goldblatt]

I think the arrival of MDMA makes a really huge difference in the mid-1980s. We've got to understand how that hooliganism this is a youth culture. And if you're looking for a way of expressing your resistance to the ruling order, you could go, you know, and watch Blackburn Rovers and have a fight with the guys from Burnley. Or you could take MDMA and go and dance in a ruined warehouse all night. What are you gonna do?

[Nick Hancock]

And the MDMA wasn't a thing. You mix with alcohol in a way that cocaine and alcohol are very destructive, whereas MDMA and water, not so much.

[David Baddiel]

Hooliganism hasn't gone away. And like all other expressions of rage, it's found a vastly wider space online, where the violence of language around football is so extreme now, it replaces the physical violence of earlier times. It also continues to flourish in the countries we exported it to.

[Cass Pennant]

The Russians said to me in 2004, when I bumped into the first Russians laid out since the wall broke down, they said to me as a group, england, thank you. You are the motherland of hooligan.

[David Baddiel]

Thank you for giving us hooligan, sports writer Jonathan Wilson. And the weird thing about the Russian professional hooligans, even though they've obviously been trained, they've turned up dressed entirely in black with GoPros to video.

[Ellis James]

The thing.

[David Baddiel]

Their understanding of hooliganism is watching Green Street.

[Ellis James]

It's English hooliganism from the 80s.

[David Baddiel]

Green street is a movie from the early 2000s about hooligans. It's a genre that became very successful. Englishness is always, it seems, caught up in nostalgia, always fetishizing a previous golden age, even one in which we were all going home in an effing ambulance.

[Nick Hancock]

The 2020 tournament. I went with my son and I remember coming down towards Renwick Stadium and it kicking off everywhere. And I'm. This is how it used to be. This is exactly. I mean, with a sort of. A sort of nostalgia and hating it.

[David Baddiel]

No, no, me too. Now I know what you mean. But meanwhile, as regards the white nationalist England fan stereotype, there has been a shift in the racism so prevalent in the 70s and 80s. Some of that is down to education and organizations like Kick it out, and some of it. More of it is down to the sheer meritocracy of the sport.

[David Goldblatt]

The presence of the Windrush generation and the generations beyond in English football is an extraordinary act of social mobility.

[David Baddiel]

David Goldblatt expands on how football was way ahead of the rest of society

[David Goldblatt]

on this for most of the last 50 years. Where have you seen young, successful black men? I mean, the tragedy is that overwhelmingly it has been on the football pitch and it was an amazing act of bravado and resistance. Because for 20, 30, 40 years, you know, the most virulent, concentrated racism within the stadium, you know, I think that's one of the stories of modern England is that that community said, we are English, this is our space as well. The meritocracy of elite means you just can't argue with that stuff. You're good, you're good, you're bad, you're bad. And everybody has to just deal with that. If one wanted to, you know, argue for a nativist version of Englishness, an indigenous white version of Englishness, the England football team just makes it impossible to equate Englishness and whiteness in the most kind of tangible, obvious way.

[Barney Ronay]

Football also expresses integration better than any other part of society.

[David Baddiel]

Sportswriter Barney Rone look at the judiciary,

[Barney Ronay]

look at the House of Lords, look at, look at the executive boards of most companies. They're not integrating people in just because they're talented. And football is and is modeling that and saying, look, this bloke really talented and he's going to play the England football team has begun to kind of embody, enact, live this question of really speeded up question about what an English identity is that involves post colonial history and like, what is to be English.

[Roy Williams]

I'm from the generation when I still remember when my mum would call us on in the living room whenever we saw a black person on tv.

[David Baddiel]

Writer of the Death of England series of plays, Roy Williams.

[Roy Williams]

It was a moment seeing one of our own in tv. I still remember watching Viv Anderson get his first cap and Laurie Cunningham. And those guys, they were, I mean, for me, they were my heroes. They were like, they were my only positive role models I saw around me. And those guys, they were it. They were absolutely it.

[David Baddiel]

Roy has carried on watching the England team as it has become more diverse and it all still matters to him.

[Roy Williams]

Commonwealth International it was, and I posted it on Facebook that just said, guys, are you watching anything game? There's something significant going on. Do you know what it is? And it took people a while to get it. Like I said, there's more black players in the England side than in starting 11. And they said, oh, nine, oh six. And I said, 907. And I said, yeah, but we've got Chelsea Boy, Karma.

[David Baddiel]

Cole Palmer, for those who aren't aware, has a Caribbean grandfather.

[Roy Williams]

That's great. So it was really important I said

[David Baddiel]

in the first episode of this series that part of what makes being proud to be English difficult is that we don't have Songs of Liberation. To sing that the national anthem is a sterile statement of power, but not always.

[David Goldblatt]

The tournois before the 1998 World cup and they didn't have the recording of God Save the Queen as it then was. And so the England team were required unaccompanied to sing the national anthem. And you could see the camera panned as it does down the line. And, you know, folks like Peter Beardsley, for example, could barely bring themselves to open their mouth. But one man, totally unembarrassed and with real gusto, is singing the national anthem. And that man is Ian Wright.

[David Baddiel]

Ian Wright belting out the national anthem feels different because there was a time when, as we know from the fans who refused to accept that John Barnes had scored against Brazil, a black player would not have been accepted as English. And thus Wright singing it lustily with pride makes it something else, makes it a song of struggle and triumph against adversity. But in the mid-90s, it did feel like Englishness and football were changing. And one of the winds of change was the feeling at England games inside the ground.

[Barney Ronay]

I would say €96 was the first time they turned the TV cameras on the crowd. First time the crowd really became part of the show in that way, which was really just not the case. The crowd was something to be kind of hidden away slightly. The crowd was likely to be like throwing darts at people and having fights.

[James Graham]

The song, mate, was just. It got bigger and bigger and bigger, but not just the song, but the feeling.

[David Baddiel]

England's goalkeeper throughout the 1990s and Euro 96, David Seymour.

[James Graham]

When you hear Wembley singing that, you must have felt even better than us.

[Cass Pennant]

I did your song

[David Baddiel]

even better than you and you were just, just won against Scotland.

[James Graham]

I remember seeing clips while we were in the hotel at burning beaches of everybody singing in, in Trafalgar Square. I do think so much of €96 and just how it united a nation. I, I found that very moving writer

[David Baddiel]

of Hit Play and its BBC TV adaptation, Dear England, James Graham.

[James Graham]

All of us collectively contribute to the national consciousness of a nation in anything that we do, whether that's a song that defines an era of our lives or a goal. But we're all part of a story. And a nation really is only ever a collection of memories cobbled together to create some kind of meaning and some kind of narrative.

[David Baddiel]

We mustn't fall prey to too much rose tinted memory. When England got knocked out of the tournament at the semi finals against Germany, BMWs were trashed in Trafalgar Square. But most of the time, the threat of violence was absent. When we beat Scotland in the second game, after Gazza's great goal, the DJ put on three Lions and 82,000 people joined in. 82,000 England fans turned out to know the words and the words are vulnerable. They are about hope persisting through defeat, which made the feeling of winning while singing perhaps different.

[Kevin Day]

For that England Scotland game was brilliant because for the first time in my memory, it wasn't about beating the Scots, it was about being English. And it just so happened that the, the so called old enemy were the, the opposition. But that didn't matter. It wasn't, we gotta beat them because they're Scots. That was a celebration of Englishness. I think that was the first time you suddenly thought, this is, this is different. This is absolutely different. Because I think for some of us there was that fear, all that goodwill would go out the window when it came to Scotland.

[David Baddiel]

Yeah.

[Kevin Day]

And then suddenly it would be violent again. But it wasn't. That was well done, England. If that England Scotland game had been 10 years before, there would have been 500 arrests. It wasn't like that. It was relief that you could go, yeah, England won. We're not happy because we're reasserting our dominance, our superiority over the Celt. The team we support has won a really important game. That was, I think, for me, that was a seminal moment with the identity of, of English football.

[David Baddiel]

We've talked in this series about how there is around England and football a mix of entitlement and insecurity. There's a darker version of that in hooliganism, which isn't just violence attached to football. It's violence attached to a wounded idea of England. Hooliganism comes from desperation, an insistence that even if we're not superior anymore, we can still be frightening. But at their best, as in Euro 96, England fans can find a way of accepting calmly, smilingly, ironically, what England is now. A small island with a lot of history, most of it in the past. And that there is a way without needing anyone else to be afraid of us, to be proud of that

[Nick Hancock]

strike like lightning.

[David Baddiel]

Next time on 60 Years of Hurt. The English combination of hope and despair reaches a height with the golden generation. You can listen to all episodes of 60 Years of Hurt first on BBC Sounds. If you want to be notified as soon as a new episode drops, make sure you're subscribed to the history podcast on BBC Sounds and have push notifications turned on.

[Kevin Day]

Welcome to the Wayne Rooney Show.

[David Baddiel]

We're joined by Wayne Rooney. We are joined by the actor James Nelson Joyce.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

We've got to get you in season three.

[David Baddiel]

We've got to do it. Bruno. This is the first interview I've ever done. Very nice to be here with you.

[James Graham]

I played against you.

[David Baddiel]

I got the shirt off you, but you don't know it. I asked Juan to get it for me. Paddy, thank you so much for being with us today. I know I'm gonna win the bells. That's in my destiny. It was just. That wasn't my turn.

[Kevin Day]

The Wayne Rooney Show.

[David Baddiel]

Watch your night, player. Listen on BBC Sounds

[James Graham]

Seeking, pushing, optimizing, creating, learning, discovering. At Aramco, we believe in harnessing the power of data to push the limits of what's possible. That's how we deliver reliable energy to millions across the world. Aramco, an integrated energy and chemicals company. Learn more about [e-mail]

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Like those $5 roses at a gas station? Or a secondhand piece of technology that breaks in the first 10 minutes? Marketers know that feeling. We optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions reach and reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not so great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bullspend. Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO. LinkedIn Ads generates the highest roas of all major ad networks. You'll reach the right buyers because you can target by company, industry, job title and more. So cut the bull. Spend. Advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a 250 credit for the next one. Just go to LinkedIn.com Broadcast. That's LinkedIn.com Broadcast. Terms and conditions apply.