Sixty Years of Hurt: 5. England v Penalties

Summary

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The History Podcast: Sixty Years of Hurt

Episode 5: England v Penalties

Host: David Baddiel (BBC Radio 4)
Date: June 13, 2026

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores the deep and complex relationship between England’s national football team, penalty shootouts, and the very concept of Englishness. Host David Baddiel, with the help of co-hosts, journalists, former players, and other guests, unpacks why penalties have become such a national psychodrama for England. The episode examines famous shootout heartbreaks, the psychological and social weight of these moments, and how footballing and cultural shifts—seen through individuals like Gareth Southgate and Marcus Rashford—reflect and shape English identity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. The Mythology of the Penalty Shootout

• The English penalty shootout is framed as a fundamental national drama—less about footballing skill than about national psyche, fear, and identity.
• David Baddiel (01:55): “It's not the Pennine way, not the southwest coastal path. It's the 45 yards from the halfway line to the penalty spot. Though in the English imagination it stretches much further. From Turin to Wembley to Saint Etienne to Lisbon to Gelsenkirchen and back to Wembley.”
• Penalty-taking becomes a “walk,” a journey loaded with meaning, memory, and expectation (01:55–02:05).

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2. The Feedback Loop of Failure and Embarrassment

• The self-perpetuating nature of England’s penalty failures: every miss reinforces a cultural expectation of failing at penalties.
• Nick Hancock (02:34): “There's a curse, a self fulfilling prophecy…”
• It's about “cognitive load”—the moment forces players to overthink, with embarrassment the central English fear (02:43, 05:28).
• James Graham (05:20): “It's existential, isn't it?”
• This is not just about football; it’s a mirror for the wider English dread of public humiliation, whether on a pitch or at a party (05:28).

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3. Early Penalty Shootouts: Trauma and Legend

• The trauma begins at Italia 90:
  • Stuart Pearce misses (“Stuart Pearce with the left foot against Ilder. And Ilder saved it.” 03:28)
  • Chris Waddle balloons it over (“Waddle has ballooned it over the bar.” 03:39)
• Baddiel: “It’s the hope that kills, isn’t it?” (03:34)
• Barney Ronay (03:55): The “heavy mental weight” means England must fight against the idea of destiny and focus instead on preparation and tactical detachment.

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4. The Science and Psychology Debate

• Danny Finkelstein (04:19): In open play, instinct rules, but for penalties, “a penalty gives you time on the ball and not in a good way.”
• Debate: Is England truly “bad at penalties,” or is that narrative statistically flimsy? Out of 11 shootouts, they’ve lost 7, which feels bad but is a small sample.
  • Tory Pier (07:14): “It's too small a sample size to be sure.”
  • Baddiel: “We are England. We should be winning more.” (07:21)

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5. Gareth Southgate’s Redemption Arc

• Southgate’s infamous miss in Euro 96 is positioned as both a national and personal trauma.
• Gareth Southgate (09:13): “My childhood hero Brian Robson has asked me, would I take penalty number six if it goes to sudden death?... But I am thinking as I'm walking away, let's hope it doesn't go to that.”
• Southgate symbolizes the English dilemma: “It's a duty penalty... admirable and also a disastrous example of good English moral fibre being chosen over skill.” (Danny Finkelstein, 10:06)
• David Seaman (10:27): “I’ve never seen these guys take them in training. Why do they put their hand up when they're not seasoned penalty takers?”

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6. Psychological Change and New Approaches

• Enter modern sports psychology:
  • Dr. Pippa Grange (14:47): To succeed, players need “total courage, fierce composure… but you also need to feel that whatever happens next, your worth is intact.”
  • The “feedback loop” can be rewired with belonging, meaning, and positive team culture (15:56–17:03).
  • Southgate and staff explicitly challenge the burden of history, asking players to define “your England” (16:25–17:03).

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7. Breakthrough: Moscow 2018

• For the first time, England win a World Cup penalty shootout—against Colombia.
  • Gareth Southgate (17:51): “This time it felt different and this time it was different.”
  • The moment is cathartic for fans and former players alike (18:14–18:47).
• Significance: deliberate psychological preparation, supportive team culture, and a sense of meaning and collective belonging help to break the jinx.

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8. The Ongoing Complexity: Euro 2020

• The COVID pandemic and national conversations on identity, race, and protest set the stage.
• Southgate pens a nationally significant letter, “Dear England,” on what it means to represent the country.
  • David Goldblatt (20:07): “I actually think that Dear England is probably the most important document on English nationalism since George Orwell…”
  • Southgate redefines national identity inclusively: “a nation of poets, playwrights, dreamers, visionaries… not just imperialists” (20:28).
• The final against Italy: Southgate opts for science and rehearsal over emotion, with mixed results.
  • Three substitutes, all players of color, miss—triggering a wave of racist abuse (23:46–24:48).

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9. Modernity, Social Media, and the Future

• The “shaming machine” of social media amplifies failures and abuse, especially against black players (24:48).
• Dr. Pippa Grange (25:15): Community responses, like the defaced-then-redecorated Rashford mural, show the potential for collective healing and positive feedback loops.
• The episode closes by suggesting that English penalty psychodrama is as much about evolving identity as about winning or losing (26:00–29:26).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• David Baddiel (01:55): “It's not the Pennine way, not the southwest coastal path. It's the 45 yards from the halfway line to the penalty spot… in the English imagination it stretches much further.”
• Barney Ronay (02:34): “It's the lone brave, somehow slightly betrayed English footballer, but brave enough to go walking up with the ball.”
• David Baddiel (03:43): “It's the beginning of a long, tortured, ongoing relationship between the spot, the back of the net, and Englishness. But what's it all about, Alfie?”
• Gareth Southgate (09:13): “So you just don't say no at those moments. But I am thinking as I'm walking away, let's hope it doesn't go to that.”
• Danny Finkelstein (10:06): “It's a duty penalty and I'll do it if nobody else will penalty, which is admirable and also a disastrous example of good English moral fibre being chosen over skill.”
• Dr. Pippa Grange (14:47): "To take a penalty, right, you need total courage, you need, like, fierce composure. But you also need to feel that whatever happens next, your worth is intact."
• Barney Ronay (17:54): “…as they started doing it, you saw it was so different. They were enjoying it. They could feel also that something was being kind of beaten in that moment and contained and controlled.”
• Jonathan Wilson (18:14): “He scores. England have won the penalty shootout for the first time at a World Cup. And finally, finally, finally, this jinx is broken. Glory, glory be.”
• David Goldblatt (20:28): “People think England is just a nation of imperialists… but it is also a nation of poets, of playwrights, of dreamers, of visionaries.”
• Dr. Pippa Grange (26:00): “That sort of feedback loop is also massively important. So be proud of that lineage that you stand in… that's what football is, that's what it can represent to our Englishness. But it's always got to evolve.”
• Stuart Pearce (29:26): “If every England game went to a penalty shootout this summer, I'd be delighted and fancy our chances… I think we're more prepared than any nation in the world.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:42–02:43: The mythology and mental challenge of the penalty walk.
• 03:08–03:43: Italia 90 — the birth of the psychodrama.
• 05:20–05:46: Englishness, embarrassment, and national personality.
• 09:13–10:06: Southgate’s infamous semi-final penalty and “duty penalty” discussion.
• 14:47–16:23: Dr. Pippa Grange on the psychology of penalties and team belonging.
• 17:51–18:14: 2018’s shootout victory and the breaking of the jinx.
• 20:07–20:28: Dear England and redefining national identity.
• 22:30–23:46: The science of shootouts and the heartbreak of Euro 2020’s final.
• 24:48–26:00: Social media, racial abuse, and positive community reactions.
• 27:17–28:53: Stuart Pearce on redemption and the shared journey with fans.
• 29:26–29:40: Pearce’s optimism for new generations.

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Conclusion: The Meaning of Penalties for Englishness

The episode intricately weaves stories of sporting heartbreak, cultural introspection, changing social context, and hope for the future. England’s relationship with penalties is never just about technique; it is a drama about history, fear, resilience, national identity, and ultimately, evolving towards a more inclusive and supportive definition of what it means to be English.

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Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

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[Commentator]

England have never ever been involved in a penalty shootout before. For the biggest prize of all, a place in the World Cup Final,

[David Baddiel]

there is a walk in England longer than any other.

[Barney Ronay]

It's the lone brave, somehow slightly betrayed English footballer, but brave enough to go walking up with the ball.

[David Baddiel]

It's not the Pennine way, not the southwest coastal path. It's the 45 yards from the halfway line to the penalty spot. Though in the English imagination it stretches much further. From Turin to Wembley to Saint Etienne to Lisbon to Gelsenkirchen and back to Wembley.

[Commentator]

Who on earth will be brave enough to step forward to take those penalties?

[Nick Hancock]

There's a curse, a self fulfilling prophecy,

[Barney Ronay]

that feedback loop, heavy mental weight, what they call cognitive load.

[Narrator/Host]

You manifest the thing that you're most afraid of, which is failure in front of people.

[Stuart Pearce]

I know what it means to people on the terraces to represent England. So why shouldn't it mean everything to me?

[James Graham]

It's existential, isn't it?

[Nick Hancock]

Or that God hates you.

[David Baddiel]

I'm David Baddiel and for the history podcast this is 60 years of hurt. Episode 5 England versus penalties

[Commentator]

and Stuart Pearce is the man to take penalty number seven. And it is level pegging England 3 West Germany 3.

[David Baddiel]

The curtain rises on England's personal penalty psychodrama in Italian 90 with England's personal

[Commentator]

psycho, Stuart Pearce with the left foot against Ilder.

[Jonathan Wilson]

And Ilder saved it.

[Commentator]

And Pierce has missed from the spot.

[David Baddiel]

We've still got hope. We've still got hope. Chrissy Wardell's coming up to take the last penalty. It's the hope that kills, isn't it?

[Commentator]

Waddle has ballooned it over the bar.

[David Baddiel]

It's the beginning of a long, tortured, ongoing relationship between the spot, the back of the net and Englishness. But what's it all about, Alfie? Sorry, I mean Barney Rone.

[Barney Ronay]

It is in part because of that sort of heavy mental weight, what they call cognitive load in sports science. So the way to win is not to have romantic ideas about yourself and a kind of Arthurian entitlement, but simply to have the coaching, the best opportunity, the best tactical thought, an entirely merit based system of football which takes emotion out of it.

[Danny Finkelstein]

The cognitive load that Barney refers to here only really comes into play with the penalty, because one assumes that footballers in open play aren't really thinking at all. And I'm not just talking about Cole Palmer. The speed of the game is too fast for reactions, not to be in the main, instinctive. But a penalty gives you time on the ball and not in a good way.

[Narrator/Host]

What is it that makes England worse than other countries at this singular act of scoring a penalty?

[David Baddiel]

Playwright responsible for BBC one's Dear England, James Graham.

[Narrator/Host]

It can only be mindset. And of course, into mindset comes loads of things. Culture, history, stories, the media, education, anything, all the things that go into our brain, so that on the moment of most pressure, standing on that spot, which is like the biggest stage, it is theatrical, it is operatic, and you fail at it. It can only be a psychological thing.

[David Baddiel]

And then James hits on it. The English thing, the English fear. At the heart of all this, it's about embarrassment.

[Narrator/Host]

It's the thing we fear most in the world, being humiliated in front of people. And that can be over serving the wrong kind of gherkin at a party or failing at a penalty shootout in the World Cup. Embarrassment guides so much of our culture and I wonder if it's, you know, you manifest the thing that you're most afraid of, which is failure in front of people.

[David Baddiel]

It's hard not to feel that this cognitive load at the moment of the penalty shootout, it's too much for the players as human beings, and also for some fans. You told me once that you didn't watch penalty Shootouts.

[Nick Hancock]

No, no, I.

[David Baddiel]

You would leave the stadium.

[Nick Hancock]

Yeah. So I left Euro 96 against Germany. I left before the penalties.

[Danny Finkelstein]

Comedian and podcaster Nick Hancock.

[Nick Hancock]

I left before the penalties at the 2020 final against Italy. But I left my son on his own.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Yes.

[Nick Hancock]

And it was only when I got to be clear.

[David Baddiel]

Your son is not a child at this point.

[Nick Hancock]

No, no, no, no. He was. He must be nine by then. I don't watch him because I don't believe in penalty. It's part of the game. It's an addendum. It's a completely different skill. It's like throwing darts. Also, I've got a very weak bladder.

[David Baddiel]

Nick is right. It's a modern addition to the game. Penalty shootouts were introduced as a way to sort out draw international fixtures only in 1976. A Euro semi final, Czechoslovakia versus West Germany. Interestingly, for regular listeners, the winning penalty was a very maverick one.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Oh, it's genius. Panenka finds a net.

[David Baddiel]

A chip down the middle over the diving sept. Mier. But that is the only penalty shootout the Germans have lost. England has lost 7 out of 11. This is surely meaningful. Or is it just statistics?

[Tory Pier]

It's too small a sample size to be sure.

[Danny Finkelstein]

Writer Tory Pier and football statistician Danny Finkelstein.

[David Baddiel]

We are England. We should be winning more.

[Tory Pier]

Right?

[David Baddiel]

4 out of 11 feels poor. That feels to me like surely that's Albania.

[Tory Pier]

No, because it depends who you're playing. Obviously, in order to be able to be in a penalty shootout, you have to get all the way to the end of the game and still be drawing, which may be a good or a bad outcome.

[David Baddiel]

Can I just say, stop you there. That is the most brilliantly reasonable thing anyone has ever said. I think the idea that any England fan, England, having lost a penalty shootout, thought, well, we played well enough to get to penalties. I think you might be the only England fan to think that England's penalty curse may not be statistically provable. But still, when an England player walks up to take one, he knows that that is the story he's in. He hears the ghosts of commentators groaning.

[Reporter]

This happened again.

[David Baddiel]

That's unbelievable.

[Unknown Interviewee]

Really.

[Tory Pier]

Psychology is unquestionably important. The idea that we aren't good at penalties is probably a feedback loop.

[David Baddiel]

And sometimes you can see the player desperately trying to turn off that feedback loop as he approaches the spot.

[Gareth Southgate]

My brain has now entered the arena of what might go wrong. What happens if I miss?

[David Baddiel]

Quality of penalties defies belief. But we're moving on now to sudden death.

[LinkedIn Advertiser]

This time, Gareth Southgate.

[Barney Ronay]

That whole image of Gareth Southgate walking up with the ball and you know he's going to fail. He's doomed to fail.

[David Baddiel]

Euro 96, the semi final 11 after extra time, England's five dedicated penalty takers have all scored, as have Germanys sports writer, Jonathan Wilson. Did Southgate volunteer or was he.

[Unknown Interviewee]

He volunteered.

[David Baddiel]

I think he kind of did.

[Gareth Southgate]

My childhood hero Brian Robson has asked me, would I take penalty number six if it goes to sudden death?

[David Baddiel]

Brian Robson was the manager, Terry Venable's assistant.

[Gareth Southgate]

So you just don't say no at those moments. But I am thinking as I'm walking away, let's hope it doesn't go to that.

[David Baddiel]

I think there's something quite English about that. You know that beyond the fringe sketch. Do you know it? There's a beyond the fringe.

[Unknown Interviewee]

We need a sacrifice.

[David Baddiel]

Yes, we need a sacrifice at this point in the war.

[Unknown Speaker]

War is a psychological thing, Perkins. Rather like a game of football.

[David Baddiel]

Is it?

[Unknown Speaker]

You know how in a game of football, 10 men often play better than 11? Perkins, we're asking you to be that one man, sir. We need a futile gesture at this stage.

[Unknown Interviewee]

Yeah. I mean, I wonder if Southgate's background. The fact is his father was in the army, whether that gives him a heightened sense of responsibility, of kind of. This is the kind of thing that a good chap would do.

[Danny Finkelstein]

It's a duty penalty an I'll do it if nobody else will penalty, which is admirable and also a disastrous example of good English moral fibre being chosen over skill.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Oh, no.

[David Seaman]

The shock of it is like when Gareth came up to take his one in Euro 96. I was thinking, I've never seen these guys take them in training. Why do they put their hand up when they're not seasoned penalty takers?

[Danny Finkelstein]

David Seaman, the England goalkeeper who literally had skin in the game here.

[David Baddiel]

I mean, I'll be honest with you, David, I'd have preferred you to take it because I felt you would have put your foot through it.

[David Seaman]

Yeah, I know. That reminds me of afterwards when we went back to the hotel and Gareth Watson and were like, oh, it doesn't matter and everything. And then Tony Adams just went anyway. It was a shit penalty.

[Danny Finkelstein]

That consolation by insult, emotional rescue by swearing is very English. But Southgate's miss becomes more than a bad penalty. It is the beginning of another story, the longest redemption arc in sport.

[Gareth Southgate]

Now, that single shot could have defined my life. That loaned my football career.

[Narrator/Host]

I can't think of a better story of resilience, where someone interrogates that trauma comes back better 20 years later, happens to be the guy who breaks the World cup penalty curse as manager.

[David Baddiel]

But before we get to that, let's just remember how long the curse lasted in France. 1998, after an epic quarter final battle

[Jonathan Wilson]

with Argentina, David Batty stepped forward and tried to do his best for England. But it's all over now.

[David Baddiel]

Then another quarter. Finally, in Euro 2004 against Portugal, David Beckham's dead ball specialism fails him.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Oh, it's awful. It's over the crossbar. It's simply awful.

[David Baddiel]

In World Cup 2006, it's Portugal again. But hey, some of our best ever players are taking these penalties this time, surely more than any other time. Frank Lampard.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Oh, he saved it. Gerard. Oh, Ricciardo saves.

[David Baddiel]

The only England player to score is Owen Hargreaves. And we have to assume that that's because he played mainly in Germany.

[Danny Finkelstein]

And then in Euros 2012, a quarterfinal against Italy, which basically no one remembers,

[David Baddiel]

except maybe for the very un English, very Italian moment when the midfield genius Pirlo Panenkas it in.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Pirlo chips it overheard. Fantastic penalty.

[David Baddiel]

What a tape to do that. That's fant.

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[David Baddiel]

Learn [e-mail] but then it's 2018, it's a penalty shootout again against Colombia in Moscow, and the manager is 22 years

[Gareth Southgate]

after missing that penalty. I found myself watching another penalty shootout. Only this time I was the England manager.

[Match Commentator]

That's it. England's first match in the knockout stage at this World cup end in a 11 draw. Colombia won England one after extra time.

[Barney Ronay]

Colombia in the Luznicki Stadium. Well, that was the big test and you did get that instant feeling of dread. Oh, my God, this has gone to penalties.

[Match Commentator]

We've seen this before and you know what that means. It's penalties for England at a World Cup. Mark Chapman, are you all right?

[John Murray]

It's a penalty shootout. Added to the fact I did have Chris Waddle sitting alongside me.

[Gareth Southgate]

Did you?

[John Murray]

So Chris was you really? Yeah. Chris was the summarizer for that.

[Danny Finkelstein]

BBC Radio 5 live commentator John Murray.

[John Murray]

Everything's been so good to that point. And it's come down to another penalty shootout. I never, ever Feel nervous when I'm commentating.

[David Baddiel]

I did feel nervous there for them.

[Match Commentator]

Can't happen again, can it?

[David Baddiel]

Before we get to the actual shootout, one thing that Southgate had done on taking over, thinking about penalties, about pressure in general, about the heaviness of the shirt, was to bring in sports.

[Dr. Pippa Grange]

Psychology definitely expands beyond that to be about how people stay in one piece while they're doing extraordinary things. I call myself also a culture coach, Dr. Pippa Grange. It's a really hard thing because you're walking out, you're exposed in front of however many millions of people are watching a World cup game. To take a penalty, right, you need total courage, you need, like, fierce composure. But you also need to feel that whatever happens next, your worth is intact. You're still going to walk back to the other guys in that line and you're still going to get a pat on the head or a hug or link arms. And if you watch how teams who do this really well behave before and after the penalty, there's so much body language, so much communication, non verbal, that is, you're safe. That shift from fear to possibility, that's what we're after. When they're out there and when they can feel that the whole stadium feels that everybody's with you because you're representing possibility and courage rather than clinging on.

[David Baddiel]

And at the centre of those linked arms is Gareth Southgate, who has prepared these young men to do this for England, only this time with meaning.

[Dr. Pippa Grange]

If you think about somebody going to the very edge of their capabilities with full passion, fierce composure, going out there to represent what they're representing has to feel like they have a place within it. It's not just pride, it's belonging with

[Danny Finkelstein]

meaning about what it means to be English.

[Narrator/Host]

Now, we had proper conversations at the National Theatre about our poster, had the England flag on it. Is that provocative? And then you think, would any other nation think that it's provocative for a national theater to have its national flag on a poster? Probably not. And we just had a brief conversation about this scene where Gareth whips out the St. George's Cross and lays it on the floo. He asked, what does this make you feel? And he asked the players, as I think he did in real life, what is your England? Don't worry about the legacy of the past, carrying these old narratives that don't feel like they authentically fit you anymore. What's your England? What do you want it to be?

[Dr. Pippa Grange]

It's like, is this also me, or have I got sort of some quiet, contested identity that doesn't fully embrace, you know, the St. George Cross or whatever else it happens to be is a reclamation, you know, to, to say these symbols matter and they've got contested history and all things have contested history, especially nations. What was the reimagining of this one that we can really feel? Yep, I'm really happy to have this on my chest. This is me and my mates next to me that I'm representing. That sets people on fire like nothing else.

[David Baddiel]

So all this thought, all this preparation, all this re engineering of what it means to be English at the end of 120 minutes of football against Colombia in a World cup, will it change anything?

[Gareth Southgate]

This time it felt different and this time it was different.

[Barney Ronay]

And then as they started doing it, you saw it was so different. They were enjoying it. They could feel also that something was being kind of beaten in that moment and contained and controlled.

[John Murray]

Gareth Southgate changed the mood. Different team, different feel.

[Match Commentator]

We've never witnessed this before. Eric Dyer has the responsibility.

[Jonathan Wilson]

He scores. England have won the penalty shootout for the first time at a World Cup. And finally, finally, finally, this jinx is broken. Glory, glory be.

[John Murray]

Chris was great. He banged the desk.

[Aramco Advertiser]

He banged the desk.

[David Baddiel]

England finally won a penalty shootout in the world.

[Danny Finkelstein]

That is brilliant.

[David Baddiel]

Just bangs the desk.

[Match Commentator]

That's a winning.

[Stuart Pearce]

Everyone went absolutely crazy.

[David Goldblatt]

The scenes in there were amazing.

[David Baddiel]

Right, it's over. The penalty hoodoo, surely? Of course it bloody isn't. This is real life, not a play.

[Match Commentator]

So it is Italy against England in the final here at Wembley.

[David Baddiel]

And things have got a whole lot more complicated in two. Well, of course, in the end, it was three years time from this evening. I must give the British people a very simple instruction. You must stay at home.

[James Graham]

Tens of thousands of people have taken part in a further day of anti racism protests in the UK. With the statue of a 17th century slave trader pulled down in Bristol, England's

[David Goldblatt]

football team is clear it will continue to take the knee during the national anthem in support of the Black Lives Matter movement. They were booed by a small part of the crowd.

[David Baddiel]

With the world in meltdown just before the Euro 2020 finals taking place unexpectedly in England, unexpectedly in 2021, Southgate writes a letter addressed to us. Well, not Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland, but you know what I mean.

[David Goldblatt]

So I actually think that Dear England is probably the most important document on English nationalism since George Orwell's lion and the un.

[Danny Finkelstein]

Bloody hell. Football historian David Goldblatt.

[David Goldblatt]

I think it is really extraordinary that Gareth Southgate felt that he had to speak to the nation as a whole in an open letter.

[Barney Ronay]

I mean, there is no other country on earth where the manager has to write a letter to the country. The first thing you have to deal with as England manager is the burden of being England and of being English.

[David Goldblatt]

While it is a, in some ways quite a conservative version with a small C of English national identity, referencing the Second World War. Duty, quiet, patriotism, politeness, respect, tradition. Remarkably, he smuggles in a lot of quite radical thoughts on the question of ethnicity and openness and inclusiveness. That's a new thing for English national identity. People think England is just a nation of imperialists, of capitalists, of exploiters, of soldiers. And so it is. But it is also a nation of poets, of playwrights, of dreamers, of visionaries. You know, the world of the England that is Milton and Blake, the nativists and the imperialists on the far right. They make all the noise, they get all the coverage, they shout loudest, right? But actually they only represent a fragment of the country. And that's why Southgate's intervention is so powerful. Is someone in that position to say, no, you do not represent the nation?

[Barney Ronay]

We do.

[David Baddiel]

In footballing terms, it works. We reach the final against Italy trippier

[Match Commentator]

with a cross towards the back post.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Shaw scores on the volley. England leads in the second minute of the final.

[David Baddiel]

England score early. And since we are in this moment praising Southgate as a man, let me do a critique of him as a manager. That was unfortunate because with all the changes Gareth wrought on the culture and identity of England, there was one thing he could never change, and that was his game plan once a match started. So the team end up frantically trying to defend this one goal lead for the whole game. They fail and it goes to penalties. But we're prepared for that now, right?

[Barney Ronay]

He decided to respond to it in a really extreme way. Every single motion from the England goalkeeper fetching the ball out is going to be pre rehearsed. So nobody is thinking about what they're doing. It is just an expression of skill.

[Match Commentator]

On comes Marcus Rashford, Mikayo Saka, and the other change sees Jadon Sancho.

[Barney Ronay]

But he took that so far that he brings on these three guys who haven't kicked a ball and says, go on. The science tells us this is the best decision. So he's gone so far from the emotional position he was in, which traumatized him so much, where he was just like, I am the bravest person left on the pitch. I will go and take the penalty because no one else wants to. I'VE never practiced it. I've no idea what I'm doing. He's gone so far from that, into the world of let us take the emotion. Let's just try and break this down.

[David Baddiel]

And that is a mistake. I don't care what the science says. It is ludicrous to say to these players, your first kick, it's from the spot.

[Match Commentator]

Here he comes.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Oh, he saved it. Dottaruma saves.

[Match Commentator]

England missed three consecutive penalties in the shootout. It's poor Bukayo Saka who misses the crucial one. And Italy win it. They're European champions. And Gareth Southgate, England losing a penalty shootout in the final.

[David Baddiel]

All the players brought on late to take penalties who all happen to be players of color miss. And then, exhaustingly, predictably, the Mail's among

[James Graham]

a number of papers highlighting the racial abuse directed at the three England footballers who missed penalties in Sunday's showdown with Italy.

[David Baddiel]

One caveat, the penalty defeat that I earlier said no one remembers in 2012. The two players who missed were Ashley Cole and Ashley Young, and they suffered some abuse, but not comparable to what happened to Rashford, Saka and Sancho after the Euro 2020 shootout. So here's the banal, obvious conclusion. Social media, every conclusion these days for every phenomenon but it is, has made the difference, has amplified this ugly, screaming, blaming form of Englishness. Social media and penalties is a bad mix because a penalty miss is such an acute focus of shame and social media is an enormous shaming machine.

[Barney Ronay]

Deer England is a prophetic letter. It was. You can't really question why he had to write that letter, because what happened after those three black players missed a penalty in the final, literally six weeks later, confirms exactly what Southgate has already thought.

[David Baddiel]

We are stuck with social media. It's not going anywhere. And England players will continue to be targeted. But it's not the only English response to a penalty miss available.

[Dr. Pippa Grange]

The way Manchester responded last time Rashford was abused when he was playing for England. It's like that. That was beautiful. A mural of Marcus Rashford in his hometown was defaced following the game.

[Reporter]

Look at how the community is responding. You can't see any of the abuse here because they have been plastered over with, well, hundreds and hundreds of messages of support. This is the streets on which Marcus Rashford grew up. And, and, well, you can see the outpouring of love for them here. In fact, all three of them, we love Rashford, Saka and Sancho.

[David Baddiel]

Which means that the history and knowledge that can cause such anxiety in the mind of the England penalty Taker can be refashioned into a different type of feedback loop.

[Dr. Pippa Grange]

And now when they see a five year old kid pulling on that kit or, you know, turning up with their name on their back, you know they're like, wow. That sort of feedback loop is also massively important. So be proud of that lineage that you stand in. And then they feel that alongside the sort of longing and nostalgia that every fan in the terraces also feels for when they pulled on their own pair of socks and had big dreams. That's what football is, that's what it can represent to our Englishness. But it's always got to evolve.

[David Baddiel]

Which brings us back to where we started.

[Commentator]

Stuart Pearce with the left foot against

[Jonathan Wilson]

Ilga and Ilger saved it.

[Commentator]

And Pierce has missed from the spot

[David Baddiel]

because in our little history, we missed out one penalty shootout. Euro 96, the quarter final versus Spain, where one man took the decision to confront his own feedback loop. Brave man steps forward to take England's third.

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[David Baddiel]

To banish the memory of Turin. I love, love that from Barry Davis. Barry knows that what's happening here isn't just sport, it's history. It's Napoleonic. As I told when I met him at Wembley recently, Stuart Pierce.

[Stuart Pearce]

I've been there. I've missed a penalty previously in a massive game and it makes you stronger, right?

[David Baddiel]

Do you really believe it does?

[Stuart Pearce]

Yeah, without a doubt. As long as you're prepared to embrace that, that negativity. My mentality was simply this. I'm one of the best five penalty takers in the team in my mind. So I'm going to offer my services to Terry Venables when we go to a penalty shootout. But I've got to say, the nervousness of the World cup and I almost felt as though the stands were more nervous than I was because of my history with penalties.

[Jonathan Wilson]

Stuart Pierce, oh, yes, what a penalty.

[David Baddiel]

He scores and then Pierce runs over

[Danny Finkelstein]

to the crowd where I am sitting, standing, jumping, and he screams and screams. I think he's screaming, come on. But it may as well be worthless because it expresses a joy and a relief and a liberation beyond words.

[Stuart Pearce]

Probably the picture of the celebration, celebration after the penalty is the picture I signed the most. And just to. To sort of have that connection with people that have followed the same journey. I was fortunate enough to be on the football pitch, but the journey is the same still. You know, people had the same journey as I did supporting England in those days. Scored here against Spain on the Saturday and went to see the Pistols at Finsbury park on the Sunday that with Gareth Southgate was just taking him to his first concept. I think that day that was probably arguably the best weekend of my life.

[Danny Finkelstein]

Englishness Personified When England begin their 2026 World cup finals journey, we'll all still be dreading a penalty shootout. It may be forever part of the English character that for us it can never be a science, that the frailty, the self consciousness, the fear, the humanity will always come rushing in as we see white shirted players begin that long walk. And maybe we don't know who we are without that. Then again, that's not what Psycho thinks.

[Stuart Pearce]

If every England game went to a penalty shootout this summer, I'd be delighted and fancy our chances are going all the way. Yes, I would, because I think we're more prepared than any nation in the world. From the penalty spot

[David Baddiel]

next week in

[Danny Finkelstein]

the final episode, England finally turn around the years of her the Lionesses have

[Jonathan Wilson]

finally won their first major trophy. England are European champions, although in their

[Danny Finkelstein]

case it had only been 38 years. Meanwhile, sod all this stuff about fascinating English fragility. We'd like to win it this time, and there's only one way for England to do that.

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[David Baddiel]

You can listen to all episodes of 60 Years of Hurt first on BBC Sounds if you want to be notified as soon as a new episode drops. Make sure you're subscribed to the History podcast on BBC Sounds and have push notifications turned on.

[Phil Wang]

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