Zach Deering (3:48)

Yeah, yeah. Well, first off, thanks for having me on. It's been great working with you and Luke and Matt and the entire A1 team. I think you're an organization that a lot of people know a lot about from the outside. I think the thing that I've really been sort of taken aback by is the humility and the desire to learn and grow. And I see it throughout the entire organization. And so I just want to take a moment to really call that out. And I think it's pretty special.

Tommy Mello (4:13)

We got an amazing team, and those guys I'm super proud of, and there is a lot of. They're very humble, and you couldn't ask for a better team. Man, I hope we're a ride or dies for life.

Zach Deering (4:23)

Totally, totally, totally. But now to your. To your questions. So. Grew up in Dallas, Texas. I'm dyslexic, so I actually didn't learn how to read until I was 12. So law school was an interesting, interesting twist on that. As you mentioned, I've done several different things, but the way I got into home services was through my mom. She had several H Vac contractors in her house. She got overwhelmed by the experience, and I got a real window into what it's like for homeowners today to make these really expensive, infrequent purchases. Case of H Vac, third most expensive purchase someone will make in their lifetime. Garage door. It's easy to spend 10 or $20,000 like really meaningful purchases. That historically as an industry, we haven't really thought about it as a shopping experience. Right. We've instead said here's your two options. Right. Or here's your one option with a bunch of jargon. And so we're really on a mission to change that. But I think it all started by seeing the homeowner's experience. And then that trace back to my time at Amazon where one of the things that Amazon, one of the core leadership principles is really around customer obsession.

Tommy Mello (5:30)

Yep. And so what, what was the beginning stages? Let's talk about what led you to mantle. So you're 12 years old, you started a business, you got, you have a lot of vast knowledge from the places you worked. The law degree really helps because there's a lot of legal jargon on these things. But what was the initial when you, you started this up, you got a partnership. It was just the online shopping experience is what you guys were thinking about?

Zach Deering (6:02)

Yeah, I think initially we started from a pain point. Right. Which was my mom and I had this experience and then I've always been pretty curious. Right. I think that's what led to my first business when I was 12. Aptly named ZB PCs. I just assembled computers in my, my bedroom. I like to joke like I'll never have as good of an opex business because I didn't pay any rent and my dad took me to go buy the computer part. So like it was, it was a really, really cash flow efficient business. But I think I've always been curious. And so what I saw with my mom and my experience was was it just us or was it the contractors that happened to visit us? And the thing that I quickly learned spending time with homeowners and contractors across the country was this, like really homeowners are being sold to rather than trying to create a shopping experience. And that was the thing that came out to, to us and that there was, these are complex purchases and there isn't really a modern solution until we came around that really thought about how do you create a shopping experience? And, and so that's really what we're on a, on a mission to do. But I think you could trace it back to the same thing that caused me to start the business when I was 12, the same thing that caused me to start this business, which is, I'm just a very curious person.

Tommy Mello (7:08)

That's the best quality to have. What do you think most homeowners really care about?

Zach Deering (7:13)

Yeah, totally. It's a Great question. And it's a question that we care a lot about answering. So we actually commission this massive survey of homeowners that have actually bought. Right. And actually shop in the last 12 months. And what they care about. And I think the most surprising thing is typically not price. 69% of homeowners say that price isn't the most important thing. What is important to them is trust. It's quality. It's understanding what they're buying. And it's also agency. Right. Homeowners, we want to shop. Right. We don't want to be sold to. We want to feel control over our purchases.

Tommy Mello (7:54)

100%. Yeah. No, I always say this. I love to buy, but I hate to be sold to.

Zach Deering (8:00)

Really?

Tommy Mello (8:02)

I got a really good book for you.

Zach Deering (8:03)

Okay.

Tommy Mello (8:04)

It's called Relevant Selling by Janie Smith.

Zach Deering (8:06)

Okay.

Tommy Mello (8:07)

And they did a double blind study with 500 homeowners on garage doors in 2017. And where do you think price came out? Is the order of importance going to.

Zach Deering (8:17)

Guess, like, fourth or fifth?

Tommy Mello (8:19)

Number nine.

Zach Deering (8:19)

Number nine. Okay. Okay. What would do you remember? What was number eight?

Tommy Mello (8:24)

All I know, like, one of the top ones was they cared about who was coming to their home, that they were safe, sure. They cleaned up, they honored their commitment, they honored their warranties. The cleanup was actually a bigger thing than I would have thought of. But they kept their date.

Zach Deering (8:36)

Yep.

Tommy Mello (8:37)

And my dad always taught me, you could do it the best quality. You could do it on their timeline, or you could do it the cheapest. But you could never be all three. Two out of the three.

Zach Deering (8:44)

Totally. You know, it's funny, when I went to college, there was a two out of the three, which is you could either sleep, you could do well in school, or you could have fun. You could only get two of those three.

Tommy Mello (8:55)

That's a good point. Yeah. Because you could have fun, get good grades, but you're not gonna sleep.

Zach Deering (8:58)

Exactly. Exactly.

Tommy Mello (9:02)

Are there general generational differences in how people shop for their home and home services?

Zach Deering (9:08)

There absolutely are. And a lot of it you actually see in the discovery process. So one of the really interesting things was we looked at how did you find your contractor? Would you like to guess which channel today, for folks that were actually shopping, was the most common channel that they actually discovered a contractor through?

Tommy Mello (9:25)

Yeah, I mean, I would obviously guess Google.

Zach Deering (9:27)

Spot on. 39% was Google. What's interesting is millennials, it was over 60%, and for baby boomers, it was less than 30%. So you see a real generational dividend where you see baby boomers is they're much more likely to have used a contractor that they previously used. It's possible because they've also just been in the market and they've known contractors for. For. For 40 years. So you see, the discovery process is. Is different. Right. About where they're finding contractors. And then when it comes to the buying process, there is actually a lot of similarities in what different generations want. Obviously, sort of online pricing and online shopping and price discovery is something that is a little bit more common in the younger generation than the older gener. But here's the reality. 69% of homeowners today are looking for a price online before they have anyone out to their home. So while there are some generational differences, it's also very clear that the modern homeowner. Right. They want to be able to shop on online, and they want to really discover price.

Tommy Mello (10:29)

Yeah. Marcus Sheridan talks a lot about this as endless customers is. Give them the information.

Zach Deering (10:35)

Yes.

Tommy Mello (10:36)

Be very transparent. Compare the products. Talk about what you. You're not good at. And that transparency will lead to more trust.

Zach Deering (10:43)

Totally. And I think what it. One of the things that I think we're really on a mission to do is how do we change this industry from historically selling to people to creating shopping experience? And. Tommy, can I ask you a question?

Tommy Mello (10:55)

You bet.

Zach Deering (10:56)

So think about a time that you bought something that you knew very little about, but it was a fantastic shopping experience. Does something come to do this?

Tommy Mello (11:04)

I mean, unfortunately, I probably. I mean, there's anywhere from 20 to 30 packages a week coming, mostly books.

Zach Deering (11:11)

Okay.

Tommy Mello (11:12)

But yesterday, I mean, I'll tell you that something pops up, and here's what makes a good shopping experience for me.

Zach Deering (11:19)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (11:19)

I can see a quick video on the landing page. I like it. It's, you know, all of Robert Sheddini's seven influences.

Zach Deering (11:26)

Sure.

Tommy Mello (11:27)

Get me. And then I hit one button. I hit the shop button. It's a purple button.

Zach Deering (11:31)

Yep.

Tommy Mello (11:32)

And it's like Amazon and my address. And by the way, getting it the same day and next day is not the ultimate thing for me. Unless it's like, something I need at the house. Like, I just bought an ankle brace. I needed that right away. But for the most part, I'll wait.

Zach Deering (11:46)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (11:46)

But I just don't want to load in. There's some Shopify accounts that you don't even. It doesn't even find your address. It doesn't load your credit card. Like, and that sucks.

Zach Deering (11:54)

Yep.

Tommy Mello (11:55)

And here's the fact, Zach, if that happens, I mean, I got a really. I mean, 90% of the time, I'm jumping off that site and they're retargeting me. I'm like, no, you're stupid. I'm not going to take the time I want to. I'm lazy now. Amazon made us lazy. I want to hit boom. Boom. Done.

Zach Deering (12:11)

Totally.

Tommy Mello (12:12)

So that's what's different for me. But I'll tell you this. I like to see my options and I like to be in the driver's seat.

Zach Deering (12:18)

Totally. Like control options. Educated. Right. That video, personalize, write your information in there. And it turns out, and this is kind of the incredible thing, I think, the thing for contractors to think about, you know, we all know already what a great shopping experience is, because we experience it occasionally. And so just think about in your process today for homeowners, are you delivering that? Are you putting them in the driver's seat? Are you educating them? Are you letting them? Is it interactive? Is it personalized to them? And I think to the question of what can be done, it's really focusing on those things. And I think the good news is, while that might sound intimidating, we each know as consumers what a really good shopping experience feels like.

Tommy Mello (12:59)

No, I think the best thing that I really like about it is I work with a guy who's like the goat of all sales. And he started in H Vac, his name's Dale. And one of his major things is all there, all aware. And one of the biggest problems we have is a husband or wife's at work or they're out there doing something with the kids. And if you're making a $20,000 purchase, you want to definitely get everyone involved in the household involved. And mantle makes it possible. And so many technicians have messaged me like, dude, we had both decision makers, not at the house going through the same presentation.

Zach Deering (13:36)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (13:36)

And that's massive.

Zach Deering (13:37)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (13:38)

Because that saves so much time. And the conversion rate goes through the roof.

Zach Deering (13:41)

Totally.

Tommy Mello (13:41)

So you're looking at this display on an iPad and the homeowner's in control, but they're also the other homeowner. The. The him or her is also going through it at the same time. Hey, go back. Hey, I want to look at this. Hey, this one probably makes more sense for us. And you got all the options in there. And then you get to pick the add ons at the end. And they're always like, you know what, let's just. If you got both homeowners, it tends. My situation has been someone's also always like, no, let's not do this one. We got to save. And someone's like, listen, this is like, we're not going to purchase this again for another decade. Let's just go and do it the right way. Let's get the lower electric bill, let's get the better air quality, let's get this, this, this. But if it's not presented properly, they don't like to be sold it.

Zach Deering (14:28)

Totally, totally. And it's funny, funny you mentioned that. One of your, your virtual sales sales team members, Trevor, sent me a text message. He's like, zach, I just had a one legger husband was away. This used to be kind of like the death of all calls. Right. Because we knew we weren't going to get to a conclusion. And he was like, with smart quote and with the remote control feature, we were able to send the link to, to the husband that wasn't at the home and bring both of the shoppers through the experience. The wife and husband, even though they were in two different places and then ultimately they signed with basically no discounts. And so I think that's really powerful because we all know that in those purchases. Right. That if you want to stay married or partnered, should probably get the other person's buy in. And so now how do you deliver an experience that gives homeowners the ability to quickly resolve the problem? Because they called you with a problem and I think it's easy to sometimes forget and lose sight of that. And they're interested in solving the problem. Otherwise they wouldn't have taken the time to be at home to greet your technician and to go through the process.

Tommy Mello (15:27)

It's true. You know, one of the things that we got to do a better job of is, is that H Vac does an amazing job. Plumbing does a great job. Is the age of equipment and understanding with service agreements. When to go back there. I talked to. I'm not going to go into the company name, but they're massive. They are massive in the Northeast.

Zach Deering (15:45)

Yep.

Tommy Mello (15:45)

The biggest company in the Northeast. And it's not arrogant. Even though he's amazing. In Ohio, they said this month they're turning over 70% of service calls they go into for a new H VAC unit.

Zach Deering (16:03)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (16:04)

And they're closing 62% of those.

Zach Deering (16:06)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (16:07)

And by the way, all these companies are between 70, 80% finance.

Zach Deering (16:10)

Yep.

Tommy Mello (16:10)

They're selling it with the finance companies. And I just think about that and I'm like, man, we are just, we're just get. We're so tiny. We're not nowhere near those numbers. It's like we're not even in the hemisphere of those numbers. Yeah, I mean to turn over that many qualified leads.

Zach Deering (16:27)

Totally.

Tommy Mello (16:29)

So this for companies like that, this is an absolute game changer. That's why you kind of focused on H I Plumbing, electrical, most likely. Where do you see the other big industries coming in? Obviously we pulled it off of garage doors. We're still in the early stages, we've deployed it in a couple of markets. But what other industries is probably a bigger ticket.

Zach Deering (16:47)

Yeah, roofing is something we get a lot of inquiries on. I mean really anything under the home service umbrella it's probably like relevant for. Particularly if there's notably a purchase. Like you think about window siding, like bath remodel, it's a little bit of a different motion, but I think in all those because fundamentally like what is the technology? It's how do you build a shopping experience for the homeowner and then how do you follow up if you don't close at the kitchen table when you. Which if you think that like garage doors maybe has a low follow up rate compared to what it could be like foundation repair, for example. We were talking with a foundation company and evidently like it's pretty common to have a 20% close rate because a lot of times this is sort of an optional, like relatively low urgency purchase. And so I really think that there's opportunities across the board. I would say our focus right now is H vac, Plumbing, electrical, recently garage door. I anticipate we'll probably get into roofing this year, just given where there's I think a ton of interest.

Tommy Mello (17:44)

You know, a lot of people are talking about ChatGPT, Claude, the different LLMs. You know, from what I've heard from very smart people is we got about another year. A lot of people are still purchasing off of Google and doing research on the LLMs. What are your thought and take on that?

Zach Deering (18:01)

Yeah, I think the data would suggest that people are not finding contractors today on Cloud or ChatGPT. Right. 3% going back to that survey we did more or Gemini. 3% founded on some sort of answer engine today. Right. So they're not finding it today. Or at least that today was as of end of 2025. That obviously will start to change. And we are increasingly hearing sort of murmurings of people. Right. Taking a proposal and running it through ChatGPT to see sort of what they should be thinking about it. I still think it's a relative sort of minority that's happening, but the shift will eventually happen there and I think that that's where it's even more important given what the models reward, which is specificity. Right. And hey, if I go search for how much is a garage door in Milwaukee, like, what are the results that I'm getting back? So are you as a contractor putting out the right information that the models will reward and likely show you as a source that you can get that, get that lead from them?

Tommy Mello (18:58)

You know, this has got to be scary for a lot of contractors listening right now because quite frankly, we want a chance to sell face to face totally. We want to give you enough information where we're not giving you the farm. But there is this theory that I predict that things are going to start getting commoditized not next year, not the year after, but as things become. And I think more about the OEMs building a workforce around them because I think the OEMs kind of control a lot. What are your thoughts about the future of the home service industry? Home improvement industry?

Zach Deering (19:31)

Yeah, totally. Pretty vast question. I think what is really clear as you've talked about on the show before and with various guests, is like really home services on the forefront of really being able to use AI for really practical purposes. Right. Whether it's dispatching, whether it's call answering and increasingly over time, sales. With that said, having a human in the loop will continue to be really important. And so I think the way that we think about it as an organization is we're not replacing the seller. Right. Even though maybe you'll replace a csr, certain organizations will. But rather, how do you use AI to augment the seller? There are tasks today that sellers either don't like doing or they're not particularly good at doing that. We use AI to make it easier for them to do. Classic example is follow up. How do you personalize follow up that understands the conversation that's happened that isn't trying to close the homeowner, but instead just bringing them back to the table with a question. Or how do you help give real time coaching to the seller about. About their proposal? Hey, you only offered four options. If you would have offered five options that would have helped or hey, we noticed you did three add ons. Hey, could you personalize this more? So we really see AI as the opportunity to help augment or assist the seller and really sort of elevate that role, I think to the broader question, in 10 years, will y' all still be sending a role organization still be sending sellers into homes? Probably not. I don't know whether that's 10 years or 15 years, but I mean clearly the trend is going that way. 69% of homeowners tried to shop online for home services today. Right. So there is definitely the interest. With that said, I think it is a gravel gradual evolution and I think the reality. I was talking with someone yesterday and he talked about how he sold actually someone, you know, well, Chris Yano, how he was selling yellow book ads even in the mid 2000s. Right. The yellow book was still something that you could make a he said business even 15, 20 years after the Internet came out. And I think that's very suggestive of the reality that, you know, Google and in person sales isn't going away tomorrow. At some point it will. Right. But it's going to take a long time.

Tommy Mello (21:44)

Well, it's, it's. I've always said it's hard to diagnose a car over the phone. My dad used to be in the transmission business for a very long time. And they'd call and say, I'm looking for a price. And he'd go, anybody that's giving you a price over the phone without really getting under the hood and diagnosing every single failure point might be a bait and switch.

Zach Deering (22:02)

Sure.

Tommy Mello (22:02)

Most likely it is.

Zach Deering (22:03)

Sure.

Tommy Mello (22:04)

And we've seen simple things like it could be a major fuse out. I mean it could be a timing belt issue. It could be a lot of things causing this. If you're. It's just interesting to me that homeowners expect. I got a broken spring, but there's a system, the spring, it's called the whole torsion system. Springs, rollers. Well, it's really springs, cables, drums, bearing plates and a torsion tube that goes into that system. The rollers help assist it for a little friction. But everything's rated on a cycle life. So if your brakes are gone, do you want me to check your calipers and your rotors as well? Because if your rotors and your calipers are screwed up, so you quote on springs and you go out there and then it still feels like a bait and switch because they gave you a price. And I don't think that's fair for the client. Although a lot of the companies listening like to quote over the phone and, and they think it's the right thing to do and then they find themselves at a pickle. And most companies that I know, especially in my industry, they go to the homeowner every other year. And I'll tell you this, I get clients that call us every single day. And not just one, not just a dozen, but very, very a vast amount and they say I've had the same company in my house four times the last two years. Can somebody just come fix this thing? Right. We, we miss another play for our daughter, we miss another day of work, we miss another weekend. And I just don't think that's the right thing to do for clients is nickel and dime them for the next 10 years. I've got a ton more questions I'm going to bounce around a little bit because I've got you prepared a sheet and I've got a prepared sheet used to work at McKinsey and also at Amazon. What do the two companies teach you that most founders never seem to figure out?

Zach Deering (23:49)

I think Amazon like the thing that is seared into my mind is customer obsession. Right. It was a common practice to bring an empty chair to the table is in that chair is supposed to represent the customer. And you'll even see people gesture to the chair being like hey, is this right by the customer? So I think that's one thing that really stands out from my time at Amazon and it's really impressive because when I was at Amazon was over 20, 25 years from its original founding. That core leadership principle was still very much embedded. So if you want to talk about a master class in culture, it is that I think from.

Tommy Mello (24:22)

Well, I want to just on Amazon. I've heard that their internal net promoter score is not great. Their internal clients don't feel the love. I've heard they obsess over the true client at home doing the shopping experience. But I've heard and by the way, when a company grows that fast, it's hard to keep the wheels on and make sure everyone's happy. Those guys work in the factory. But, but anyways, let's go to McKinsey.

Zach Deering (24:45)

Totally. I think at McKinsey it's, I think the really humbling part was spending time in Fortune 15 Fortune 500 businesses is just an appreciation for what scale is like and just how hard it is to scale businesses. Right. Like a five person business is fundamentally an incredibly different animal than a fit 50,000 person business. And I think it can be easy if you're working smaller organizations to be like hey, why does this 50,000 person organization struggle? Right. Like they have 50,000 people seemingly. Right. They should have all these resources. But that coordination and effort to get everyone on the same page is no small thing. So how do you build the mechanisms in place to make sure that you are constantly communicating to every stakeholder?

Tommy Mello (25:31)

And I got 1250 and, and it's something I struggle with. And it's something where we did a survey. It's a blind survey. So it was anonymous. And a lot of people felt like they didn't have enough impact and things that would affect their work.

Zach Deering (25:46)

Sure.

Tommy Mello (25:46)

And it's. I, I always say if I was Henry Ford and I think he probably did a great job of this is talking to the guys on the assembly line to get it better.

Zach Deering (25:55)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (25:56)

And it's something to where it's a leadership thing. It's a lot of discussions on how do we get them involved in the conversation. Hey, I hope you're enjoying today's episode. Quick question for you. What happens when you get in a room with contractors making over a hundred million dollars who've already achieved what you want and figured out solutions to your challenges? I've watched over 6,100 contractors come to Freedom and so many of them ended up doubling their goals because they finally saw what's actually possible. One guy told us it reshaped what I think is possible. Another said it made us reach for greater heights we never thought possible. That's what happens when you're around $100 million plus owners showing you what's really possible in this industry. Listen, Freedom 2026 at Mandalay Bay in Las Vegas October 26 to 28 is going to be even better. We're finalizing speakers right now. So I can't share more just yet. But, but keep an eye out for updates from my team. If you want to get in on the pre sale, check out freedom event.com now and grab your ticket at the exclusive presale price by February 15th. That's freedom event.com now back to the episode. Why do most FSM tools fail at the moment that actually influences homeowners decisions?

Zach Deering (27:10)

Yeah, I think it's just a question of what you're building for. Right. Like I think most FSMs are building for the contractor, which totally makes sense. Right field service management. Do you get the right tech to the right place and do you book the call? With that said, the moment that matters most that that sales moment, it's a different. It's a different problem you're solving. You're actually trying to create a shopping experience for a homeowner which is fundamentally a really different task than how do they make sure that a one gets the right person to the right place. And so I think a lot of it is just like focus and what are the rewards or like job that it's trying to accomplish?

Tommy Mello (27:45)

You know, I think as this product continues to take market Share. And I'm glad we're part of it because I think there needs to be a lot of training around how you start the sales. I think it's going to change the sales process. I think we've got a pretty darn good one. But I still think I've talked to a lot of technicians and what's nice is we want to get in the, we want to get in the, in the battle with you. We want to say, can we do this, can we do this, can we do this?

Zach Deering (28:17)

Now?

Tommy Mello (28:17)

That's what's tough about what you're building is because I'm sure everyone's going to have their two cents totally. But it's the larger clients that'll influence, you know, what service they did a great job of. And not so great is I, I had R on the podcast since 2017 and he said, I just wish he goes, tommy, we spent hundreds of millions of dollars to build the best product that'll work for $100 million plus jobs that we took their SOPs, their processes, their payroll and we applied it so the small guys could have a chance. But then you get a five technician company that comes on and they want to completely not they want to go against the tide of everything we built. That's a tried and true way. And they said we don't do it that way. And they try to custom rig this software to do what they used to do rather than saying we're going to make some changes in the way we train, we're going to make the payroll changes that everybody wins and very few people are willing to make that change. And we, you did have to work pretty hard for our process because it's different, but I think it's a wave of the future. What are some of the constraints that you think you're going to have going into smaller businesses?

Zach Deering (29:22)

Yeah, totally. And I think it's, it's great. And I think there's a lot like, I definitely feel like we're building on the shoulder of giants with all the work that service time and others have done before us. And I think it's really impressive what they have built as an organization and what they've scaled. And so I feel very humbled that we get to sort of build on that foundation. I think a lot of it is just really understanding who your product is good at serving today and also sharing who it isn't good at serving. Right. And so today, if I'm honest, like who are we good at serving? H vac, plumbing, electrical, increasingly garage doors that are primarily using Service Titan and that probably are 10 million plus in revenue. Right. Just that is sort of the reality of where the product stands today. I think to the $2 million shop, the product isn't a great fit for it. Today. We will evolve and we will improve the product to sort of meet those smaller organizations that have different needs. But I think it's just being really clear about where, about what are the ingredients for people to really succeed with your product and sort of what are the limitations.

Tommy Mello (30:28)

You know, about the conversation I had with Aro when I couldn't get on.

Zach Deering (30:31)

To Service Titan, I think I've heard a little bit about it. You basically just like begged your way.

Tommy Mello (30:37)

Yeah, I steamrolled them. I basically said, dude, we're 17 million. He goes, we're not made for garage door. My father and Valle's father weren't in the garage door business. We built this specifically. You understand discipline, you understand focus. You understand the power to say no. I said, I understand all three of those things, but if you bet on us, you'll never have to turn back.

Zach Deering (30:58)

Totally.

Tommy Mello (30:59)

And it was an hour long conversation. He goes, don't make me regret this. He goes, I'm sending out 10 success managers. They send one out to a big company. And, you know, I think that changed the history of the company. It changed it by far. We were the big winner there. I will never say, look what we did for Service Day that allowed us to expand like crazy. Have the KPIs, have attribution. And so I never once was like, man, I'm glad you, you must be glad of me now. You did an ipo. No, I'm like, you did this for us. We won 95% of that. So I'm definitely, I have a lot of gratitude for that. You know what's interesting is Mantle shows, the data shows that Tuesdays are the biggest sales days. What does that reveal about buyer psychology?

Zach Deering (31:44)

Yeah, I think maybe buyer psychology and also just like scheduling. Right. Like, and it's interesting. And you probably even see it in.

Tommy Mello (31:50)

Your own data where we see Tuesdays are the best.

Zach Deering (31:52)

Yeah, Mondays are a little bit sleepy on the weekends. Interesting. A lot of people are like, oh, weekends must be great. Which is. It's true. Right. You're more likely to have both buyers. And historically, that was limitation. Obviously we're changing that. Right. If a buyer is away. The reality, though is the lead count is just lower on Saturdays and Sundays. I think Tuesday, it's like you're starting your week. You have a lot of opportunities at Bat and you're not getting as distracted by the weekend and as things progress. And so I think it is a fun thing that we get to look at. And the power of what we're building is the data and what that means we can do for our partners. Right. And I like to say, like, we don't have customers, we have partners, and we're really in it with each of the contractors that we work with. And so if you go again to the question for, from before of like, hey, what do others miss? I think it's missing that perspective. Like, fundamentally, if we do our job well, like I want it, and where we stand today and where I hope to be in the future is that when we walk in the office of any of our contractors, that it feels like we're a familiar face. Right. Like, if we just happen to be in Phoenix and I happen to stop by the A1 office, like, Zach, great to see you. Like, thanks for stopping by. Like, that's the level of partnership and connectivity that we strive for.

Tommy Mello (33:06)

You're going to have to really. It gets more difficult as the company grows. You're going to have to start asking yourself this question. Who? Not how. How do I get the right people on the bus? As Jim Collins would say, how do I continue? You know, when my. When my brain shifted towards marketing for great people to come on the bus instead of getting great clients.

Zach Deering (33:29)

Sure.

Tommy Mello (33:30)

Everything started to solve itself.

Zach Deering (33:32)

Sure.

Tommy Mello (33:33)

Because so many people out there that are probably listening are like, man, I got these three killers. I got a good person in my CSR and dispatch. I got a really good gm. But imagine if you had a team of all A plus players like Steve Jobs was able to attract and they. They wanted to come work for you. Well, how do they do that? Because you focused on putting the stuff out there. Now that at least show them there's a better opportunity for them, which very few people do.

Zach Deering (33:59)

Totally.

Tommy Mello (33:59)

And I think that's going to be your biggest. I won't say it's going to be a problem, but that should be your biggest core.

Zach Deering (34:06)

Like.

Tommy Mello (34:06)

Like going after is building the team and continuing to keep what you built. Because you're out here today in our headquarters.

Zach Deering (34:13)

Yep.

Tommy Mello (34:13)

And you've flown out here a lot.

Zach Deering (34:15)

Yep.

Tommy Mello (34:16)

And Zach's only one person. And so you're going to have to delegate to elevate. And I'm glad you're part of this because we'll work very closely together to continue to make this product better. And obviously, the more you scratch my back, I mean, this is Only the beginning. I mean, luckily, the people listening know I'm not a bullshitter. If I use you and I'm finding success, if somebody comes to a shop tour, I'll just show them that this works. One other thing I want to just mention is when I was in the bar industry, I was a bartender, I was a bar back, I was a busboy, you name it. Is I remember the owner said to me, he goes, tommy, we know Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday mornings are good with football. He goes, if we can make one other day, great, that's where we make all the money. Yeah, that's where. That's the profit day.

Zach Deering (35:03)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (35:03)

And every bar is kind of busy on Thursdays, Fridays, Saturdays and Sunday morning. And the reason I mentioned that is if you could make Saturdays and Sundays very, very profitable.

Zach Deering (35:17)

Sure.

Tommy Mello (35:17)

And what we're working on is advertising. We love working weekends. Call us out at no extra charge. Because if I could pack those days and make those massively profitable, you know, by the way, everything's cheaper on those days.

Zach Deering (35:32)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (35:32)

Most guys are closed on Sundays. So all of a sudden, PPC and social media, all the other stuff, they. They feed us better.

Zach Deering (35:39)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (35:39)

On those days.

Zach Deering (35:41)

And I think what that really gets at, both for your team members and for homeowners, is choice. Right. There are certain people that want to work on a Saturday or Sunday, so they can have Tuesday and Wednesday off. And there's certain homeowners that also want to be able to shop on because it's convenient for them. And I think more than anything, and something that I've seen in your organization, something that we feel really strongly about, is how do you empower homeowners with choice 100%.

Tommy Mello (36:07)

I mean, if you read what Should We Do By Joe Chrisara, it's not on this shelf, but all he talks about is giving options and the data to back it up. And I think five options are better than three. There's all kinds of studies around that too. But also there's some people depending on how hard the options are to understand, it can confuse people as well. So it's really. There's a lot of science and psychology behind the options. And then the pricing that you could.

Zach Deering (36:36)

Make them 100 agree. And it reminds me of two things that we often think about. Price is only the most important thing if you don't understand anything else. Right. And so if a homeowner is telling you that, hey, you know, this other company's $500 less expensive means they don't really understand what they're purchasing. Which means that there was an education gap somewhere along that journey.

Tommy Mello (36:58)

So I'd ask you, Zach, what you said, we're 500 more if you're the homeowner. Let's just do a little role play. Let me ask you this. If we were the same price, Zach, let's just say, everything being equal, which one would you choose?

Zach Deering (37:13)

I mean, you're here right now, and so we could get it done. So, yeah, I'd be inclined if. If everything was the same price. You're gonna be a 500 discount. Great. Let's go forward. Well.

Tommy Mello (37:26)

If the prices were the same and you choose us, and you obviously know we're different companies. You've done some research. We've been in business two decades. You can see the difference in the parts we carry. But why would you go with us? So I don't want to lead with that discount. I just said, all things being equal, and hopefully you'd say, well, I did the research.

Zach Deering (37:46)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (37:46)

I looked at your bbb.

Zach Deering (37:47)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (37:48)

I know you guys do background checks.

Zach Deering (37:49)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (37:50)

I know you run warranty calls ahead of new clients.

Zach Deering (37:52)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (37:52)

And so I'd. I'd ask you to sell yourself.

Zach Deering (37:54)

Sure.

Tommy Mello (37:55)

But you're not the real. I mean, you. This is not the perfect scenario because you don't have both bids, but I want you to just literally, I want to hear you destroy the other company.

Zach Deering (38:05)

Sure.

Tommy Mello (38:06)

And say, so, obviously.

Zach Deering (38:09)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (38:09)

It's 500 worth everything you just said not being done properly.

Zach Deering (38:13)

Totally.

Tommy Mello (38:14)

And I think that a lot of people miss that. A lot of people make it about price. And you'd be surprised. During my orientation, I do for three hours. We talk a lot about. A lot of people say Oklahoma and Tulsa are not as good as Phoenix, or Reno is not as good as Orlando.

Zach Deering (38:29)

And.

Tommy Mello (38:31)

I hear this every day. And then I'll take a top 10 technician. We'll send them to any market, same price book, and they'll get the exact same.

Zach Deering (38:38)

Sure.

Tommy Mello (38:39)

So I always say, we live in the United States of America.

Zach Deering (38:41)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (38:42)

If you told me to go to, like, Mexico City or something, I can't guarantee it would be the same.

Zach Deering (38:45)

Sure.

Tommy Mello (38:46)

But we always put those fallacies to. To bed. You're an expert in shopping online. And we hear a lot about the challenges today being tricky, macro environment, lead flow being down, which it is. Consumer confidence, I believe is going up right now. What do you feel like, is the state of play in home services sales today?

Zach Deering (39:11)

Yeah, I think it's. It's a bit of a tale of two cities. There are fewer Leads coming in, they're more expensive than ever. Right. It's not uncommon, right, to spend 500 or $1,000 to get a replacement opportunity. Prices, particularly in H Vac, but across the board are significantly more expensive for equipment than they were five or six or seven years ago. And so against that backdrop, there are the folks that are succeeding and the way that they are doing that is through creating a shopping experience. Are you meeting the homeowner where they're at? Are you personalizing? Are you showing them different options? Are you putting them in the driver's seat? Or are you slapping down three prices on a sheet of paper and a bunch of jargon? Right. Those are sort of the two things. And I think a lot of people are having a hard time. And look at H Vac, for example. Shipments are significantly off. Right. You'll see some reports that say up to 49%. Yet there are contractors that are succeeding in spite of it. And what are they doing? They are creating shopping experiences.

Tommy Mello (40:18)

Yeah. You know what's really frustrating is when I go online and I don't really shop for Rolex's. I got one, but a site that gave me the information, I know it's going to be expensive. It's a Rolex. I'm not expecting to find a deal, but I hate it when you got to click get a bid. You got to put your email in and someone's going to contact you. And it's like, listen, I know why they do that and I understand the science behind it. It's get them on the phone, close them. But it's so much more transparent. By the way, the LLM machines love the transparency, and I think it's going to give a really strong edge over. Over that. What do most contractors get wrong about sales today?

Zach Deering (41:02)

Yeah, it's a great. It's a great question. I think fundamentally, at its core, they don't really put themselves in the consumer or homeowner shoes. We talked about it already that as a consumer, you know what you want. You want to be educated, you want to be in the driver's seat, you want it to be personalized. And a lot of contractors don't actually build an experience that executes on that. Right. I think the good news for contractors out there is you know what great looks like, Right. You might not have seen it in home services, but, you know, because you recently bought a gun or a car or something else somewhere and someone did a really fantastic job, think about what they did and then think about how to bring that to the garage. Door you're selling or the water heater you're selling or the generator you're selling.

Tommy Mello (41:49)

You know, I can't keep. I can't stop thinking about just this customer obsession. And it's not something I feel like we've done an amazing job on, but it's something that I think everybody that's listening will be forced to start doing more and that customer obsession. And it's kind of not fun to listen to customer complaints and the one star reviews and doing secret shoppers. But if you really focused on those things, imagine how great your company would become within six months.

Zach Deering (42:19)

Totally. Totally. And here's the reality. You can either focus on it or you cannot, but either way, homeowners are having that experience. Right. So the only thing maybe tougher if you really think about it than focusing on it is thinking that if. Thinking about what happens if you don't focus on it because it's just going to expand and increase.

Tommy Mello (42:38)

Yeah, yeah. It's definitely something that I think most people need to start taking more seriously. How can top performers balance transparent pricing without commoditizing themselves?

Zach Deering (42:51)

Great question and I'm sure there's a lot of people out there, based upon this discussion that are wondering this. I think what it really comes down to is are you educating? Are you building value? Like what are you doing to stand out from all the dans and the vans and to make sure the homeowner understands what you are going to do? I think a consistent challenge is a lot of these home service purchases are, are really different than anything else we purchase. If you buy a car, does it matter the dealership you buy it from? No, it's the same car. It's built in the same factory. However, if I buy a garage door or if I buy a water heater, really the only thing that matters is who installs it. Right. Like the equipment is such a small piece of the final experience. And so I think educating homeowners on that is really, really important. And that's, I think the way that you can do it is if you are clearly articulating the value, then you can be transparent about pricing. Because again, price is only the most important thing. If you don't understand anything else.

Tommy Mello (43:54)

Yeah, the whole thing is how do you prepare the presentation that educates through the process before the price is given instead of just a big pop up of the price. There needs to be some education to provide value.

Zach Deering (44:09)

And where I'm pushing our company, our partners and really the industry is how do we get rid of the word presentation we don't want to be presented to. Right. Like, imagine if someone came in and just lectured at you for 20 minutes on any purchase. Like, would that be how you want to.

Tommy Mello (44:25)

I want to be involved. Like, I'd want to be like, listen, show me the different colors. Unless I have an hoa. There are a lot of choices. I mean, we broke the price book because there's so many different combinations. So there is something that needs to be out there. But get me involved.

Zach Deering (44:40)

Absolutely. Experience. Right. Imagine a personal buyer, Right. You go into some high end department store or high end gun store and yeah, there's a thousand different guns in there. But what are the five or ten guns that make sense given what you've shared? Right.

Tommy Mello (44:54)

I just did a gun experience for my breeze father and I said, we walked in and they said handgun or rifle and they pointed to the rifles or the handguns. And he asked a few questions, but he didn't really get involved.

Zach Deering (45:10)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (45:10)

And Ryan Reese stepdad figured out what he wanted.

Zach Deering (45:14)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (45:14)

And that was it.

Zach Deering (45:15)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (45:15)

And it was really, really great.

Zach Deering (45:16)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (45:17)

Except I had to buy it because he's not in the state of Arizona and it took like half an hour for the background. It's just a. That's a pain in the ass.

Zach Deering (45:24)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (45:25)

It's part of the experience.

Zach Deering (45:26)

All different. But yeah. I think what it really comes down to is like, how do you really create a shopping experience versus a presentation?

Tommy Mello (45:33)

I really, really like that. And I know for a fact what Aaron and myself has experienced is people like, I had a technician call me. He's like, dude, there was no way this person wasn't going to buy a three star. But then they looked at the pricing of the five star and it was so close because of the psychology we did with the pricing and the payment structure that they opted to do the five star.

Zach Deering (45:54)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (45:55)

And if that's happening all day every day, that starts to add up to be a lot of money.

Zach Deering (45:59)

Totally. And I think the really incredible thing about it is it's good for a one, but it's really good for that technician and for that seller. Right. Who now get to bring home an extra few hundred bucks from that job. And talk about now, like, you already have a culture I know, that really prides itself on being a phenomenal place to work. If you're able to increase sort of average sales per job run by let's say 20%, that also means that you're able to pay your team effectively 20% more. Right. And that becomes really, really powerful to make sure that A1 stays the Premier place to work.

Tommy Mello (46:34)

Yeah. I interviewed a technician yesterday. He's out of Milwaukee, and he made Pinnacle. And they had lost a baby, which is. Which was devastating for them.

Zach Deering (46:46)

Absolutely.

Tommy Mello (46:47)

And then his dog, his best friend, died. And he's part of our Dream manager program. He got through it, but he said, you know what? We use in vitro, and it's not cheap. Yeah. December 26th.

Zach Deering (47:00)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (47:01)

We're having a baby. Oh, my God, these are turning around. He goes, tommy, my average check is four to six thousand dollars a week.

Zach Deering (47:07)

Oh, my gosh.

Tommy Mello (47:08)

And he goes, I love this business.

Zach Deering (47:10)

Yeah.

Tommy Mello (47:10)

But to get through that is something pretty special. And I love that because this allows us literally. Why does financing make sense? And I've. I've learned this from Darius Livers. You could help all customers. More job security, higher conversion rate, higher paychecks. It's just there's like this whole spiral of things that happen when you get higher conversion rates and higher tickets and you're going to help every client and they. They genuinely say yes more often.

Zach Deering (47:37)

And it really comes down to giving choice. Right. Like, I think often as an industry, we conflate thinking that someone doesn't want something with actually just not offering the choice. Right. Like, are you offering it and are you doing in a compelling way. To be clear, if you just ask someone straight out, oh, are you going to finance this? There's a lot of judgment that comes with that, or a lot of people can receive that in a judgmental way instead. If just the initial price you show is a very accessible $144 a month.

Tommy Mello (48:04)

With the finance options.

Zach Deering (48:06)

Exactly.

Tommy Mello (48:06)

There's five reasons why people don't buy with financing. Number one is pride that I look like I need financing. And some of them go into. We've always heard cash is king.

Zach Deering (48:15)

Sure.

Tommy Mello (48:16)

And we don't like to be sold to. When you walk in the Nordstrom's, the girl walks up and says, could I help you find something? No. We've had a previous experience with financing.

Zach Deering (48:24)

Yep.

Tommy Mello (48:24)

But all of us, I. My grandma gave me her 96 grand amount. I went to a payday loan to get back to Michigan to 2200 bucks out. It was at 25% and it was a horrible experience. So there's all these reasons why we've learned don't do that. But when you find out it's an investment that's going to improve your home's value, it's different than buying a Harley and losing half of the value when it drives off. This is Actually going the riser is 268 return on investment. When we talk about investments and ROI, that changes everything. That's something I want to make sure Mantle continues to build return on investment because groceries happen to be number one.

Zach Deering (48:58)

Absolutely.

Tommy Mello (49:00)

Why does Ruthlessly simple. Why does ruthless simplicity matter more as a company grows?

Zach Deering (49:06)

Yeah, it's great. It's great. Question. At the end of the day, consistency is really king. And the more complex things are, the harder it is to be consistent. Most organizations above 10 million in size, right? Most contractors, they actually know what a good sales experience probably looks like, right. And they've probably gone through training and they probably have some sop. The question is, are you able to consistently deliver it? And what's the death of consistency complexity? There's this wonderful book called Insanely simple that was written by the guy that evidently coined the name for like the imac, right close into Steve Jobs circle. And the thing that Steve Jobs spent a bunch of time on was simplicity. Because here's the reality. Complexity is easier than simplicity. Simplicity takes work. Candidly, like, as a leader, one of the things that I talk a lot about, we talk a lot about internally is how do we try to keep our product as simple as possible while making it really powerful?

Tommy Mello (50:07)

It's true. I'm thinking about my one on one forms and they can be a little bit complex. I really want to just jump in as we finish up here to the product. So it's called Mantle. Why is it called Mantle?

Zach Deering (50:24)

The Mantle in a home, it's where you put the things that you're proud of. It connotes warmth, right. It's the centerpiece. And really in our goal, our aspiration, and it's a weighty aspiration we're working really hard every day to get there is how do we make the experience of shopping for a garage door or an H VAC system be really delightful. Be like a warm experience for the homeowner.

Tommy Mello (50:44)

By the way, it's M A N T E L just like the mantle in your house. What do you think the impact overall of using Mantle would be for most companies if they were to get on it?

Zach Deering (50:54)

Higher average tickets, higher close rate. For companies that we've worked with Reliable Comfort and Seymour, Indiana, they saw 48% blended increase across close rate and average ticket. And that is after taking out the increase of equipment prices year on year. So there's really, really durable impact that can have on a business. And that's the financial. Right, the.

Tommy Mello (51:16)

Not to mention. Well, it eats the finance fees too.

Zach Deering (51:19)

Totally the Dealer fees totally. And the non financial is you have a more consistent, better homeowner experience and you make it easier for your sellers to really focus on the things that they're really phenomenal at, which is building relationships, advanced system design rather than doing a bunch of more menial work. That is it stuff that they're passionate about.

Tommy Mello (51:38)

I got six closeout questions, so we'll play speed round.

Zach Deering (51:42)

Okay, let's do it.

Tommy Mello (51:44)

Give me your favorite books that really shaped. It could be the bible, it could be the emails, it could be a fiction book. But just three books that really, really affect the way you conduct yourself. And your path was like based on these.

Zach Deering (52:00)

There are many that come to mind. I think ones that are at the top of the the list for me. The Hard things about Hard Things by Ben Horowitz. Basically a book about entrepreneurship and that fundamentally the journey that we're on is hard and that's okay. And the struggle is real. That's part of it. So that's thing one book two never splits a difference. I think it fundamentally changes the way that I think about the way I think about negotiating. I also really like that Chris Voss starts with a zinger about the Harvard negotiation program, which while I was in law school I went through it. So I appreciated him sort of calling it out. And I think the third book is a book called Bud not Buddy. The reason why it's so meaningful to me, it's about a little boy and his dad was a jazz musician. Was. It's the first chapter book I ever read and I was 12 when I read it, so it was. I'm dyslexic. Took me a while to learn how to read. Reading is now a really important part of my life and so emotionally there's a real connection to that book.

Tommy Mello (53:02)

I love that if somebody wants to learn more about Mantle and I know you're very, very disciplined, you want to go after companies that have enough opportunities to let the product work.

Zach Deering (53:15)

Yep.

Tommy Mello (53:17)

What's the best way to reach out?

Zach Deering (53:18)

Yeah, you can go to use M A n t e l.com so use mantle.com. you can drop your information that way. Also reach out to me directly, Zach at Usemantle. And again, I think to that point of like, who are we a good fit for today? This will evolve over time. It's H vac, plumbing, electrical, garage doors that are really think about it as like sort of 10 million plus in. In. In sales or revenue.

Tommy Mello (53:47)

What's one question you wish more people asked you?

Zach Deering (53:52)

What I'm grateful for what are you grateful for? Like, all of, like, the love and support. This journey that I'm on, as I know you can relate to, is really intense. And it means for the people that I'm closest to, my mom, my girlfriend, my sister, others, I don't show up in the way that I maybe wish I could or as often, or I'm stressed or whatnot. And I think that support and like, the pride and the encouragement and the understanding is something that I'm eternally grateful for.

Tommy Mello (54:24)

Something you should do every day. Wake up and say what you're grateful for. And finally, what are you most excited about right now?

Zach Deering (54:35)

I am so excited that we get to play a part in fundamentally having home services, great shopping experiences. Like, while it seems sort of simple, create a shopping experience, there is so much opportunity because so few contractors do it today. And the things that we have on our roadmap this year to help deliver on that, some stuff that I know you and I will talk about later. I'm just like, so excited that we get to play a part in that and just feel. Going back to the other topic, very grateful.

Tommy Mello (55:06)

It's awesome, man. And by the way, I know a lot of people are probably thinking, man, this must cost an arm and a leg. But the cool thing, what you've done is you. You, you've systematically put your fee into the pricing and it's not as much as people think. So it's not going to change your convert, it's going to improve. So the fee gets eaten very easily. The client actually, actually pays for it for a better experience.

Zach Deering (55:32)

Exactly. It also means our interests and incentives are aligned with our contractors, which is why we say we have partners and why we're also particular about sort of the making sure someone's a good fit. Because if it's not a good fit for you, not only not the right thing to necessarily partner with you, but it's also not in our interest. And I think incentives are really important.

Tommy Mello (55:50)

And it's such a good incentive because literally, if you're not successful with the tool, you don't pay.

Zach Deering (55:54)

Exactly, exactly.

Tommy Mello (55:56)

It's amazing. And I think you guys really figured out a lot. And I'm excited. I'm really excited that me and Aaron are so close because when you find something, I'm a little bit different, like, I want to share things and I'm like, we got to elevate the industry, the whole home service, home improvement industry. But Aaron tells me certain things that he won't tell a lot of people too. And vice versa, like, if I find something and I'm like, early on, I'm like, listen, I'm still kind of figuring this out, but you should look into this. And I appreciate the friendship of Aaron and guys like Yano and Ishmael, and there's a lot of them, Ringy and Hoffman, and there's so many good people in our lives and they continue to want to help. Chris. Hoffman's another one. And I want to see you blow this thing up. So I'll be a big fan. You've proven yourself over and over again. Not only is a great product, but you guys are great people. So you say, anybody? Here's the deal, guys. All I would say is do a demo, see if it's a good fit. I mean, like I said, the criteria is kind of high. Be 10 million plus. If not, really, focus on getting to that number because this will change the game. And Zach, it's been a pleasure, my friend. Thank you for being here.

Zach Deering (57:12)

Thanks for being in Phoenix.

Tommy Mello (57:13)

Yeah, I can't blame you. It's better than New York. It is, it is.

Zach Deering (57:16)

There's no snow on the ground. It's like 10 degrees back home. So thanks for having me.

Tommy Mello (57:20)

All right, guys. Hey, listen, if you enjoyed this podcast, do me a favor, leave a quick review and share it with a friend. That's how we grow. We don't do any marketing on this podcast. I appreciate the listeners out there. I hope you have an amazing month and you dream big. You write down your goals and you have accountability. I'll tell you this, if you stay consistent, you got big goals. It'll happen. Appreciate everybody out there. Hey there. Thanks for tuning into the podcast today. Before I let you go, I want to let everybody know that Elevate is out and ready to buy. I can share with you how I attracted a winning team of over 700 employees in over 20 states. The insights in this book are powerful and can be applied to any business or organization. It's a real game changer for anyone looking to build and develop a high performance like over here at A1 garage door service. So if you want to learn the secrets that help me transfer my team from stealing the toilet paper to a group of 700 plus employees rowing in the same direction, head over to elevateandwin.com forward/podcast and grab a copy of the book. Thanks again for listening and we'll catch up with you next time on the podcast.