B (3:01)

No, it's going to be great, man. I, you know, M A when I, I remember in 2017, I learned this crazy word and I've got it on my license plate. It's arbitrage and it's probably the coolest thing on the planet. I just love the idea of M and A. But me personally, I've turned into a green filled organic machine. We grew the business, we'll do over 100 million of EBITDA and we grew 85% of it through organic. But I just got a really tight buy box. But in the future I'm planning on really getting good at M and A. Why don't you give us a little story about yourself, your journey, how you got where you're at today.

A (3:43)

Yeah, well, I'll first lead with, you know, I, I work with founders who are, they're great at building revenue. Right. But have not yet built enterprise value. And I want to theme it that way because that's what we're talking about. So my job is to help them turn a strong operating company into a transferable asset for that what we call the inevitable exit. So with that framing, you know, my, my inspiration behind the book in Inevitable Exit really falls, but more so with a personal story with my father. And it's hard not to get glassy eyed when I talk about him. He's still here with us. But my dad, he built a beautiful business. You know, today would be worth $35 million. Just to put it in context, we watched my father's business deteriorate with his health. He had three spinal fusions and today he's permanently disabled. He's likely in bed right now, but when he's out of bed he's in a wheelchair or in a cane. And that was hard to watch. And I've seen this also with our clients along the, you know, over the last 20 years. And it really, really inspired me to write that book because we're all going to exit at some point. I'm going to exit my business one day, right. The question is, is it going to be on my terms or somebody else's. And so, you know, my father today remains that inspiration and he's got, he has the will to live like no other Tommy. To watch him deteriorate over the years and really lose his identity when he had to close the doors of his company was very difficult to watch. And watch my, watching my mother, watching my father and my siblings. And so that's been my inspiration. That's my why I'm married 20 years for kids. And I don't want to repeat history and I don't want anyone to repeat the history of even some of the clients that we've advised. I mean, I've, don't get me wrong, like there are amazing transactions. We're closing, we're closing a 60 million dollar roofing opportunity next week. And that founder is going to stay with the private equity investor and they're going to grow and scale this business targeting a couple hundred million dollars of top line revenue. And so we'll pop bottles of champagne, we'll celebrate, we'll high five, we'll do all the things right. But I've also been at the closing table with the widowed wife because her husband died prematurely at the age of 50 of a heart attack. We, we've sold a distributor, building material distributor, that was brought to us by a law firm. And that law firm engaged our firm because this business had to be sold and it had to be sold and we sold it. But the caveat is the business owner doesn't know we sold the business and he doesn't know we sold the business because he lives in an Alzheimer's facility and he doesn't even know he started a business. And so it's these types of stories that really resonate with me and the work that I do. And that's why we're here. And you know, you on the other hand, are a great example of success. You're a great example of what it takes to implement systems and SOPs and leadership so that you can scale your company. Because early on, you know, when we all started our companies, we, we bootstrapped our companies, right? Your story is you were $50,000 in debt when you started, right? And you built it into the empire that you have today. But it took discipline, it took consistency, it took you showing up every single day focused on that vision. And so I really want us to take this, this income focused operator into this paradigm shift where we're going to teach them, really and talk about, even through your, your story of going from that income to that outcome. And that outcome is, is the Transferring of that asset, their business that has massive generational wealth in enterprise value locked in.

B (7:50)

I love it. You know, I got up on stage. Pretty much every time I get on stage now, I say, I'm never going to buy. I'm an investor in a lot of businesses and I'm like, I'll never invest in a company that I can't sell within five years. And that's the way that equity works. P units, you could call it eip, you could call phantom shares. But if no one on the team understands the plan to get to an exit, you're not going to really motivate them. And I think using equity incentive programs or something like ownershipworks.org, with the KKR kind of came up with coming up with this plan. They need to see the finish line because you're sprinting, especially if you're PE managed. And I'll tell you, this lesson I've learned is not everybody's cut out for private equity. It is a sprint and it's hard work. But they're great people. And I'll tell you this, Brian, most people don't know this, but they have LPs to answer to. And there's pension funds relying on them, making good investments and executing. So they're, they're painted as these bad guys, but they've got the teachers union, the police officers, the firemen, all counting on them to execute, to make sure when you do a deal with them, you're going to work 10 times harder. You're going to fill in the blanks, you're going to fill out the org chart, you're going to have KPIs, you're going to have monthly board meetings. And I hear all this BS about private equity because there are some bad actors like everywhere else. There are.

A (9:16)

There are you. You said it best. I mean, private equity, they're, they're institutional investors professionally raising capital from LPs or limited partners. And they have a fiduciary responsibility back to those partners to perform, to create a return. And that's why buyers are more thinking about transferability, leadership depth. They're thinking about predictable revenue streams and risk mitigation and scalability. Where, you know, most of us founders, we're just focused on revenue and income and growth, right? And so when you think about it in that light, they're human beings just like you and I. The difference is we went out, we had the tenacity, we had the courage, and we had the ability to go out and start companies from scratch. Now, nine times out of 10, most startups do fail. That's why, you know, venture capital is not what we're talking about or not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting to find the right capital partner that is going to allow you to scale at a typically 130% faster rate year over year than you would on your own. But to your point, they're underwriting to risk. And they're not, they're not sharks. They're not always looking to get us or you or me or any business owner tuned in right now. They're ultimately looking to minimize risk and maximize reward. And so if you can enable them to do their job, you and I both know they are happy to pay you more money, they're happy to pay you more cash. You just have to be able to fit in their buy box and within their underwriting guidelines to empower them to do exactly that. The stress test I really like to focus on is, you know, what would your business look like if you disappeared for 90 days, right? And I mean disappear. Like no emails, no phone calls, no putting out fires. You know, would you come back to a company that's declining or did you come back to a company that's scaling and growing? Right? That's really the difference between those that have systems in place or those that are, are the system, right? Because otherwise, if you have a very expensive job or you built a very expensive job for yourself, that's great from an income standpoint, but it doesn't feed your outcome. It doesn't feed building enterprise value in the asset that you're building.

B (11:35)

You know, I, I've got into this little argument with a lot of people when I say revenues for vanity, profits for sanity. Me and my buddies, we only talk about profit and ebitda. And you know, this idea I had all these people going, what about growth years? What about when you're reinvesting in trucks and training and consulting and everything else? And what I realized from private equity and a little bit of discipline is I can still get the 25% of the bottom line. I can still spend 15 on marketing, which is outrageous for growth. I could make sure I'm efficient as hell. I could go on a two week vacation and not look at anything. But what's crazy is I was that guy that would argue and say, no, no, no, no, no, we don't need to make a lot of profit because we're in a growth year. And then I learned you could do both. But you got to be super efficient, you got to know the numbers the numbers, a math equation, and the efficiency, the economies of scale, the, the getting the right people on the bus. That's who, not how. We got seven people now on our FP and a team that's just analyzing numbers and data and pay structures and how we're working with our vendors. And most guys, they never. They don't know what a CFO does. They never heard. They don't know the difference between a tax advisor, a legal person, a cpa, a CFO and an FPA team. I mean, they just don't know. And they go. And then they wonder at the end of the year, why do I gotta pay so much tax? So we didn't make any money. There's no money in the account. Because I was that guy. And it's tough, man. This is not for the fainted heart. When you go into business and you work the hours, what I've realized is I don't look up to anybody that works hard. I stop looking up to them. I like the people that learn how to delegate and hire for their weaknesses and stay out of the fricking way.

A (13:17)

Yeah.

B (13:17)

Because most entrepreneurs, my good buddy, Darius Labras, he does a lot of M and A. He goes, if it's a $5 million EBITDA company or less, I gotta get rid of the founder. I have to. He goes, because they stick in the way. They don't like sales. They think the old way worked. That's why we bought them. He goes, you gotta get rid of that mentality of the belief system that's literally crippling.

A (13:38)

Yeah. I mean, that, that's really what it comes down to, is firing yourself. And, and that's a hard statement to make and a hard commitment to make, because when you fire yourself from your own company, you then truly become a business owner, not a business operator. And, and that ownership mindset forces you to the. The accountable measurements that you described. Right? Because, look, a good bookkeeper, they're going to record their wreck, their historians. Right. Their record keeping. What did you do historically? How well did you do? But it doesn't translate to cash flow, as you and I both know. You could. You can make 20, 30, 40 million, you can make $5 million of revenue and have terrible cash flow and not afford to be able to pay your taxes. Right. And so when you look at a CFO, I like to say CFOs are really focused on not only telling you where you've been, but where you're going. And, and most people don't connect with that because CFO'S they they see as a, a drain and an expense on the P and L of and eating into their personal profits. But in reality we had a client in, in, in underground construction. They do dry utilities, power and telecom. And first things first, in the meeting with the husband and wife, the wife says hey, I, I, I want to be fired, Brian. And I said well okay, we're going to fire you. I'm glad you're saying that because we want to bring in a CFO to come in here and create measurements on your financials that you're not just not making today. Why? Because you don't know what measurements to make. You're just going along and trying to survive and trying to grow. But in result of bringing in a full time cfo and sometimes they could be fractional, but a full time CFO, they grew the business by 10% of revenue but increase their EBITDA by 30%. That should say enough to everyone tuned in and listening to us.

B (15:37)

You know, here's something interesting. I'm going to kind of talk out of the side of my mouth here. I went to, I went to a, an annual meeting for Cortech, who's a private equity mid market and I got to speak on stage. They brought in all these pros, they had these five guys and these guys were like the private equity experts. And what they said was when you got a great company that's performing year over year, month over month growth, it's a healthy EBITDA company. You got to figure out everything possible to not lose the founder. Although the founder needs to go if it's a small company. But when the founder leaves, it kind of loses its culture. You lose the, the, the stickiness. But the hard part about private equity is you just gave me 200 million bucks. How do I keep the founder? So it depends on the age, it depends on what you want to do. So obviously the multiple comes down if the founder is not going to roll a significant into the next deal and be all there. What is your take on founders or the owner rolling equity? How much should they roll and how do they get more excited about the next deal? Because a lot of people lose interest.

A (16:53)

Yeah, I mean you touched on a great point. Because founder dependency is perceived as risk by institutional investor or institutional capital, whether that's debt or whether that's equity. The reality is founders staying continuous with the business does drastically minimize that risk for investors. And so the question then becomes, you know, we always talk about exits or exiting. My question is what do you want to exit into because a lot of us, when we first started our companies, we were good at something, we were good at production, we were good at generating revenues and sales and, or building teams, whatever the case may be. But there's always something that you're, we, we lack, right? And so rolling equity, if you had the luxury of time. Now some of our clients, they're well into retirement age. They should have sold, you know, five, 10 years ago. They don't have the luxury of time. But if you do, I mean, we have clients that have had six bites of the apple. They were the, they were part of the company that they sold for six different, in institutional investors and they had liquidity events each time. And so when you think about that, if you're given the opportunity to roll forward equity, you, you have the, the roadmap and a Runway that's going to allow you to sell this company not just once, but could be twice, could be three times over a period of time. And so why is that valuable? Why is that important? Well, to the investor, they're underwriting risk to the owner, seller, right? That's considering a roll forward equity. What they should recognize and realize is that they're going to grow at 130% faster year over year, statistically and historically they're going to be working with somebody else's checkbook, right? Someone else' capital. And I don't know about you, but I behave very differently when I'm the one writing the checks into the company. Right. And so do owners. Just generally we, we have all different risk tolerance. But where our risk tolerance is based, typically by some intuitive feeling that we have as founders. Right? Intuitive feelings are great and then they do guide us and they do lead us, but that's not how institutional investors work. So rolling equity, in conclusion, gives you the opportunity to grow into scale because you know where you're sitting today, hey, I know I could double the revenues. But if you haven't been able to do so, it's because you don't have that structure. You don't, you haven't built the culture. And sometimes that culture is, you know, if the culture is perceived to be selling or partnering or mergering, whatever the case may be, they perceive that to be ultimately they're, they're just exiting or they're just, you know, hanging their hat up. That's far from the truth. Because when you can grow in scale with the bandwidth and the brain power and the capital that institutional investors bring, you're going to reach heights that you've never would have reached. On your own. And so that's a blessing in my opinion, because rolling equity gives you that opportunity to access tomorrow's dollar while securing and structuring that deal today with clear defined targets and exit points along the way.

B (20:26)

You know, a lot of people don't really understand exactly how private equity makes so much money. And I don't think they understand how they use so much debt. You know, a lot of companies will buy an H Vac company with 6x borrowed on EBITDA. So they're paying 12, they're borrowing half the money. And then guess who's responsible to make those payments? The company. So you don't have as much cash flow for growth. And then you add on to that every time the private equity company flies out, they're flying on the company dime or goes out to dinner, stays at a hotel. Yes, the debt is great because it maximizes return and it's beautiful because the dollar goes so much further on the return side. But there is a point that stops us from growth. And so in your, this is a selfish question, but in your expert advice, and I guess it depends on the business, the growth and it depends on, you know, where you want to get to the goal. But how much debt is the right amount to take with having the growth capital, those for a few years to, to really be able to buy. And green Greenfield is expensive too because. Yeah, but it's an add back the first year, which is nice. My favorite thing is I'm gonna get a T shirt made if I know add backs, like I think I know add backs, that's an add back. But

A (21:48)

I'll throw something in front of you. My, my personal license plate is, is, is, is ebitda. We made these houses, we made these hats based on my license plate. And it's an acronym for earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. Right. So this is a measurement that institutional investors, like private equity groups make. But when it comes to debt load, I think people need to realize two things. One, debt's not a four letter word. It's not a bad word if you use debt correctly. It's a tool that allows you to grow in a scale. So if the debt is being raised for purposes of acquiring a company, I like to see a 50, 50 blend, right? 50% debt, 50% equity. And so what that does though, if you think about it, if, if a transaction comparatively was all equity, that could potentially dilute your position if you roll equity forward. Why? Because everyone else is pouring in equity. But when you, when you when you structure debt into a transaction, you're leveraging the investment for yourself as, as well as the investors. And so you know, if it's 50% equity coming in, your 20% equity in your company that you're rolling forward could convert to from 20% to 30, 35 to 40% depending on the capital table, which puts you in a superior position when it comes to the liquidity event somewhere down the road. And so I think that the right blend of debt is key. And I like 50 50. Historically I've seen those transaction structures work very well.

B (23:25)

Something that a lot of people don't understand is if you've got a client like Home Depot or Costco or let's just say it's Google and you're building all their stuff and you lose that contract, you're going to lose a lot in your multiple because there's so much density in this one account. So you know, we service 25,000 homes a month. So the great news is we don't have, and we don't have one lead source either. We've got like all these different lead sources because now people are going that this AI snippet with Google, everything's going down on Google. So my main job is the, the visionary, especially in the marketing side. I'm a CMO more that became a CEO. In my mind there's CFOs that become CEOs or CEOs. I'm more the marketing guy is. I'm like, I need other marketing sources to be diversified because if something shrinks, especially in this world of LLMs. But I want to. Well, what's your take on that?

A (24:22)

Well, I think that, well, to your, to the point we were both making earlier, I mean you have identified with that role of cmo. That's, that's your specialty, right? That's what you're really good at. And so if you could find a partner that empowers you to do what you're best at, that's where you want to live, that's where you want to be. You don't have to be the CEO. And that's typically, we think, you know, the ego steps into things. No, this is my company. I have to be the CEO. No, do what you do best and help that business scale because you're joining a team that is all hyper focused on growth and scalability and getting to a critical mass so that you had that option and opportunity to then later sell that investment again. And I don't want to just speak to the, you know, the big national players. Let's, let's address the guys and girls that have companies with $5 million of revenue or less than, let's say, floating around $2 million of EBITDA or less than that. Those opportunities are still great opportunities. You do need to minimize yourself from risk and reduce that risk. But the reality is, if you could join a larger platform where you could have access to administrative support and marketing support and HR support and all of the things, right, Then it allows you to live in a world where you could focus on what you do best. Because I don't know about you, but how many times I hear business owners say, man, if I never have to go through an insurance renewal again, I'd be a happy person. If I never have to go and deal with HR issues again, that would make me so happy. Right? And so that, that comes back to that question. What are you exiting into? What do you want to do? What's your identity? Where are you going to go? And so when you, when you reflect on that, that answer really reveals itself. And like yourself, you know, you found yourself most powerful for the company to be that CMO in, in the organization, you know.

B (26:30)

Adam Coffey, Private Equity playbook. Does that ring a bell?

A (26:33)

Yeah, Adam. Adam Coffey is a friend of mine. He was on my podcast. Great, great guy. Great. You know, and he, he's the one that had six seconds, six exits in that business.

B (26:43)

No, he did great. He did the commercial H vac and. Great guy. Love the guy, get along with them really well. I called him up right before my first deal, and he's like, the rule of thumb, Tommy is always 35%. And I'm like, I tried to do 60% and we weren't going to get the multiple. So I settled for about 48%. In hindsight, I wish I would have done 60%, but I just couldn't find anybody that was willing. They still would have had control because they, you know, but I just believed in it so much. And I know on this next thing is people are going to wonder how much I believe in this. And I'm like, I want to go at least half of what I've got now. But then what, what everyone's been telling me, the more the merrier. You know, there's a lot of reasons why to be diversified. A good, a good consultant will sell you, Put money in bonds, put money in the S and P, put money in the real estate, put money into here, here, here. Let's even get some overseas stuff.

A (27:41)

Yeah, yeah. Alternative assets, so on and so forth. But yeah, when you, when you think of your wealth strategy, you know, wealth advisors typically translate this to a pie chart we were talking about. And that pie chart will have everything inclusive of what you described, including cash. But a big chunk of it of entrepreneurs is typically their business or their business value. Sometimes they know what that value is, sometimes they guess what that value is. But whatever the value is on that pie chart is typically a majority of their wealth that they cannot liquidate unless they enter into some sort of M and A transaction. And so if you can take that advice and apply it to your own business, you want to diversify away from your business, you do that by selling majority of your company, let's call it, you know, 60 to 80%, the balance thereof, you keep in the form of equity and you stay with the investor and the partner that you merged or sold to. And then, you know, that 60 to 80% of cash that you took off the table, those chips you took off the table, that is your cushion, that is your, your reserves. And that allows you to sleep, you and I to sleep better at night because we know our families are going to be taken care of. I mean, I have four kids, I have a wife, right. I, I want to be able to leave a legacy here on earth when I'm taken from Earth. And so when you think in that context, it forces you to be accountable to the, to the very fact that de risking and diversifying is, is, is the advice that we're all given, because it's the right advice.

B (29:16)

You know, the only other. I know a lot of guys that I've talked to recently that have done a dividend recap, basically pulling money out of their company. Sometimes you get two turns of ebitda, but then they're, yes, they're still reliable for that debt solely and sometimes. What are your thoughts on that?

A (29:37)

Well, you know, historically, you go back 20 years. This, this feature that you described of, you know, recapitalizing the business, it was typically an instrument reserved for the Rockefellers of the world, right? The public companies of the world. But, you know, capital has evolved and I like to frame it as what was once only exclusive to the Rockefellers is now available to the little fellers, right? So in the, and the little fellers being the business owners across our country here in, in those tools are great. I mean, you have to have confidence, you have to have the ability to service the debt. But if there's a good reason for you to recapitalize the business, then, then explore it, look at it get advice, you know, talk to your attorneys, your wealth advisors, your M A advisors. Because that is something that was not available historically to, to everyone.

B (30:37)

You know, one of the things I think that a lot of people make a mistake is I did not argue too much about my salary and bonus, okay? Because I wanted to be within the realm of what my company should get. But I didn't go in there and say I want the private flights, I want all this other things, I need this massive bonus. Because I said, well that's just, that's just going to go against ebitda. And then by the way, yearly I get taxed ordinary income on that money. But when I sell the business and it adds as the multiple of ebitda, I'm going to pay capital gains. And so it's a different game I'm playing. And I think a lot of people miss that. They over negotiate their salary. Now what happens is what is the PE saying? This guy better be damn good, he better kick ass because he's a big expense. He better be his worth, worth his weight in gold. And so some of it, what I've seen is certain PE companies become, there's animosity because they allowed you to negotiate that and then you're not showing up in the right way. But then you're getting paid ordinary income, you're half of it's going to the irs. What is your strategy when it comes to that?

A (31:49)

Well, you know, when you sell a company, you typically have multiple agreements to your point. One of them will be an employment or a consulting agreement. The other agreement is going to be the definitive purchase agreement. Right. But what we have to realize is that if you're making, let's say half a million dollars a year and you want to preserve that, okay. That we, we could structure it that way. But you need to know that that half a million dollar salary, base salary, let's call it, is going to be an expense of the business. That expense is going to deteriorate your valuation in that first transaction and potentially in the second. My advice typically is to structure a market comparable base salary for yourself. If that market salary is 180,000 a year, not 500, then you should consider it.

B (32:43)

Why?

A (32:43)

Because that 180,000 means you know, you have a commitment and you, they have a commitment to pay you that. But you could layer on top of that bonuses tied to future growth and performance. And that is more, that's not static as much as it's dynamic. Right? Because if you're not growing and the business is still Trying to afford you to half a million dollars a year. That's going to deteriorate your ebitda, thus deteriorate your enterprise value. So there's always a good balance between a base market salary for your role with your, with your roles and responsibilities. But also layer in a bonus program, put those targets, talk with that investor and your partner. What should those be? Because they want to incentivize you to grow. And that's a, that's a really good incentive for Everybody, including the LPs.

B (33:36)

So for the dynamic bonus, because this dynamic, is that considered add back?

A (33:44)

It can't. It can be considered an add back because if you, you know, on the next transaction, that could be considered a non recurring expense in whole or in part. And so whatever portion of that will not be continuous with the business will certainly be added back to adjusted ebitda, which thus increases the enterprise value and thus increases the liquidity event at that moment in time in the future.

B (34:09)

It's, this is confusing to a lot of people, but I'll tell you this. I remember being on a stage and my buddy walked up to me, goes, why are you explaining all this crap? He goes, it's way over everybody's head. These are blue collar guys. I go, because that was me two years ago or five years ago or seven years ago. And if they don't understand how the machine works and they're not building, great book Built to Sell by John Warrilow is you should build everything to sell. And even if you don't plan on selling it. I had a guy in my shop earlier, great guy, yeah. He goes, you know, I got two sons that want to take on the business. And I told him, I said, let me tell you something. I sat down with a guy from Australia, he had five sons with him. I go, would you rather mom and dad run off to the sunset in the retirement age, be able to buy a yacht, live their best life, and give you guys each a few million bucks each to go start your own thing? Or do you want to take on the family business? And dad was sure they wanted to take on the business. And they all looked at me and they said, I want mom and dad to live their best life and we want to work together, but some of us want to go after our own stuff, you know. And then the kid looked at his dad today and said, I'd rather you sell the business than me take it over. But we think our kids just, they want to, they want to continue the legacy, but that's what we want. Not what they want.

A (35:27)

You're exactly right. And so here's a good stat for you. 30, 30% of, of family businesses that successfully transition to the second generation, it's only 30%, 70% fail, 12% make it to the third generation, and only 3 to 5% make it to the fourth generation. And so when you consider that in all, in all scenarios, it's declining, the success is declining. So if you can be approached with an opportunity or position yourself for the opportunity to exit into liquidate, then that's something you have to pursue. And speaking to those that say, oh, I'm never selling, I don't care what you say, Tommy, I don't care what you say, Brian, I'm never selling the company, well, here's the message to that. If you're never selling the company, that's fine. But you're still inevitably going to exit your business. The question is, what are you leaving behind? Because the problems that you have not resolved in the systems that you've not implemented into your company aren't magically, magically going to appear once you transfer the business to your kids or whomever it may be. It might not even be your kids. It might even be that your next tier of leadership in your organization, you could pursue what they call ESOPs and employee stock ownership programs as well. Right? And so I say to everyone, we're all going to exit. I'm going to exit. You just really have to know what you're building, because what you're building is what you're going to be leaving behind, whether it's an internal transaction or an external transaction.

B (37:02)

You know, Brian, just briefly, I want to touch upon an esop. I had a wealth advisor tell me you could sell 50.1% to the employee base and take the 49.9%, 99% and transfer that to a Roth IRA, because technically it's worth nothing because it's all in an iou. And then my lawyer spent six months looking at it and they said, this has never been tried in court. And the chances are this could all unwind and you would be one of the primary people because of how much money it is. Because a Roth IRA, technically you're only allowed to put a 6500 bucks. Or you start with, what is your take on that? Because I've seen a lot of people looking at these fancy ESOPs and they sound great. What are your thoughts?

A (37:44)

They do. We sell more ESOPs than anything, right? Because ESOPs over time become these quasi public private agencies because it's difficult to fire people. It's, it's because they're shareholders. They're now owners of the company. They, you know, they think and behave differently from that standpoint, from the employee standpoint. Now there are massive tax benefits with an ESOP that should be weighted out and considered. You don't have to sell the entire company to an ESOP. You could sell 10 or 20% to an ESOP for purposes of keeping management engaged with the business at an ownership capacity. And that's something that I would Recommend overselling, know 100% of the business to an ESOP. But that doesn't change the fact that we sell more ESOPs because over time those ESOPs tend to deteriorate in culture, in value and performance. I'll give you a case study. We were working on a deal in, in Bangor, Maine, the complete polar opposite of where you and I are in, in the country. And this business was successful service company. They serviced gas stations and they service, you know, oil and gas fields and things as such. They were in esop. We went to sell it. The sale that we negotiated on that deal was 3x the valuation of what the internal ESOP valuation had derived for itself. So it was obvious to everyone that the company should be sold. The employees would get a massive liquidity event. The leadership, the C level leadership, CEO, cfo, they would win as well. Well, here's what went wrong there. When you have an esop, there's this trustee and I know we're getting into the weeds here, but I'll keep it simple. There's a trustee that's elected. That trustee is designed to protect the employees, the owners of the esop. So the perception of this deal was that the valuation was good, it was good for the employees. But what they did in that, what they did not like, is that the CEO and the CFO were being asked to roll equity forward with the buyer. No one else was being asked to roll equity forward, just the CEO and the cfo. So the trustees perception of that was, well, wait a minute, why do you two or why are you the only ones reserved to get the upside potential here? That's not fair for the employees. And so we got into this kind of, you know, standoff and the deal never closed. When we last worked on that deal, we gave actionable advice to the team, to the client and their team and we said to them, structure yourself so that you could be continuous with the business because that's what investors are going to want. The CEO and the CFO are by far one of the top Two in the industry, in their particular industry. And they need to stay continuous with the business. So there's a lot of control. The punchline there is you lose a lot of control under an ESOP because there is a trustee that is looking after the employees that buy into that company. And that can be very complex, as this case study illustrates.

B (41:09)

There's. There's a lot of scenarios here. We talk about ESOPs. I mean, there's all these different things, these tax structures, and this is why you need, like, the right people on the team and the right advisors. When I brought in the right people, I mean, it's crazy. What I've learned about. And I'll tell you the lesson that I learned in 2019 is a guy called me up, he said, I've done all the deals in home service. Like, if I haven't done, I know about them. And he proceeded to tell me every deal. And on my whiteboard, a massive whiteboard, I wrote down every deal. Then he told me, he goes, do you have a EIP program? I'm like, no. He goes, who do you have running your HR and finance department? I said, not. No bueno. He goes, I want. I'm going to give you the right recruiter. He goes, show me your org chart. He goes, you're at four and a half million of EBITDA. He goes, I want you to run this to 20, because that way I think you could become a platform and we could get this. And he goes, I'm going to consult you along the way. We need you to get an FP and a team. You need the best CFO in the business. You. You're going to have to get your HR up. You're going to need a growth team on that M and A side. I want this to be the full picture. He goes, I think you got what it takes. And so he got me, along the way, the right people. And of course he got the deal because he's the one that kind of guided me and taught me these things. And all of a sudden, we were able to tell people we're the same thing as H Vac. We're a necessity. If your garage door breaks, you're stuck. You can't get out, just like if your air conditioning is 120. So, you know, that's one thing I think every entrepreneur should listen to, is be curious, don't have all the answers. Listen and take notes, listen to podcasts, show up and get people that are smarter than you around you.

A (42:43)

Yeah, funny story for you. We. We had that that Myq app at our house, and we came home one night with the kids. I forget where we were, but their whole system went down. We could not get into our house because that we didn't bring a house key. You know, we left. Typical family, right? We lock everything but the garage door, and we come in through the garage door. So we're stuck in the car, you know, waiting for the garage door company to come out to help us get in. We ended up having to call a locksmith. And then all of a sudden, the MyQ app starts working. We open the garage and we get in. But it is a necessity, right? Is, is the punchline there. It's an absolute necessity. And so when you, when you look at your business and your service model will withstand the test of time, right? The garage doors are not going anywhere. We know that home services is a growing segment in the market. Private equity investors are more and more, whether it's windows, siding doors, garage doors, roofing, H vac, plumbing, you have a massive amount of equity groups going after these sort of opportunities. And to your point, yeah, if you could get to 8 to $10 million of EBITDA, you're perfectly positioned to be a platform. If you're less than that, you have work to do. But that work doesn't mean you have to get to eight, ten, a million of EBITDA. You know, get to a critical mass of one and a half to $2 million of EBITDA and we'll still build the right pathway for you to exit the business, liquidate that at that portion of the business that you want to de risk, and then you continue to grow and you continue to scale. But the advice you were given was spot on. And that's why I spent a lot of time, you know, educating founders and provoking thought in them, because this is not something, you know, you wait for until your retirement age. This is something that you should be working on from day one. And, and I argue we all have business plans, but none of those business plans have an exit strategy plan. And if you don't have an exit strategy plan, you have not completed your business plan.

B (44:55)

In my opinion, yeah, probably the, the most annoying question I ask entrepreneurs, the answers are, what's the exit plan? And they go, I don't know. I'm still having fun. You know, we'll figure it out when we get there. And some people say at least 10 years. And I'm like, well, you're going to show up to these same events in five years and say the same thing. And you're still going to be wondering, like, when you're fight or flight and you set an agenda and a timeline, that's like saying, you know what, Brian, I want to lose some weight in the next year or two. But if a guy tells me, look, here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to go get a DEXA scan, I'm going to watch my macros, I'm going to do this many calories burned per day, and I'm going to pay attention to it daily. That person's going to succeed. But when somebody says this vague thing of like, you know, we're just focused on revenue this year, I'm like, what kind of revenue? How many jobs do you need? What's your conversion rate? What's your average ticket? How many people do you need to hire? What's your turnover rate? Like, I'm going into these things and most people, Brian, I'm like, what's your booking rate? Really? What to the decimal point? They're like, it's probably like 90%. And I'm like, probably 90%. What's your cancellation rate? And like, the math that I look at is the feedback loop that makes me. If I got a boat and there's a hole in it, there's always going to be a hole in the boat. What's the biggest hole? One of my focus, most entrepreneurs don't know what they're doing on Monday. They go in and they get busy. I see the big holes and I'm sitting in the outer layer, not doing any of the, the busy work anymore. I'm like, look, yeah, I'm delegating, saying, this is what's going on. How are we going to fix this? What's your plan? What's your timeline? Here's the resource you have to do it now go execute. And I think the biggest lesson is I've hired really smart specialists in the company that are way more competent than I am to accomplish these things.

A (46:38)

Yeah, my, my. I was giving good advice at a young age, and one of my mentors said, brian, you don't need to know everything. You need to be able to afford those that know. And that's exactly what you did in my mind, Tommy, is that you went out and you hired the right people and put them in the right positions. Because here, you know, here we are at the beginning of 2026. Right? And so, you know, really what we should be focused on. And those tuned in right now should really focus on, you know, building a real general management team. Cleaning up their financials. Right. And have monthly closes and clear sights on margins and add backs, as you talked about. Document your operations and remove yourself from those key positions and develop that leadership depth that ultimately is going to empower the business to grow and to scale. Because most people, they don't have a revenue problem, they have a structural problem. And so those that say, hey, yeah, next year, you know, in five years, I'm having fun, okay, I get it, it's, it's comforting. But inevitably, they're going to have to come to a time and a place where they need to work on these things in order to exit the business or the asset that they built along the way. And if they don't, they're going to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. Because as we talked about throughout this entire podcast, investors are underwriting to risk. And the lack of systems and processes is risky. And the fact that you, someone you know tuned in or they have key person issues or key man issues, that's a risk that needs to be addressed.

B (48:22)

You know, what I've learned about investing is if I look, I've got a lot of opportunities. I've got the home service freedom. We know these companies. I walk into a million dollar EBITDA company and I'm like, oh my gosh, we've got so much work to do. It's almost like. And then I wonder, you know, like, what's the level of sophistication? I need 10 million. And then you get into the 20, 30 million and you're like, this is great. But that takes a massive investment. That's a massive family and family office. It could be a dual investment. So I just think I want to get in. What I'm learning is I want to take good to great than broke into good.

A (49:02)

Yes. Yeah. In my book, I talk about you. You cannot sell a problem. Right. No one's going to buy your problem. And if you have problems in the business, it's, you know. Yes, it's, it's, it's seductive to think, well, when I go to exit or when I go to sell, we'll fix that. No, because they're underwriting to risk. And if you have problems, even to your own point, no one wants to buy a problem. So you can't even sell a problem. You need, you need. You don't time your exits. You build readiness. And then you choose to be accountable to that playbook that we put in front of you to follow it and execute on it.

B (49:44)

I had a guy that I'm Working with, he's, you know, 14 million of EBITDA. And we compared our KPIs, and I overlapped mine. And I said, our average tickets, three times yours, our booking rates, 20% more. And I just showed him everything and, and he goes, well, I want to do all this stuff before I sell. And I'm like, but you won't. I'm like, I wasn't condescending and I wasn't a dick and I flew out and. But I'm like, why don't, why don't you. What, what would you like to roll? And he's like, at least half. I'm like, then, then roll half and get the upset and have us do it within six months. We'll integrate this machine, we'll retrain your guys, we'll get you on the right CRM, we'll get you the right price book, and we'll get five star reviews all day, every day. I'm like, you could have as much side as upside as you want. You're not going to lose anything. You're going to lose several years trying to get here. You're very good at what you do. You've done well on M and A. You've got a good beast, a machine, but you're better at a lot of things. We're going to learn from each other. But this idea of like, I want all the upside that, you know, Dave Ramsey just had this guy call in and I just saw this on a video and I want to hear your point of view, but you got a few more minutes.

A (50:53)

100%. Let's go.

B (50:54)

Okay, so the guy, he's got this Texas kind of redneck accent. He goes, I got to ask you, Dave. He goes, I got 20 million in the bank and I only work one hour a year. He goes, I got a good team, I take care of them, I pay him well. I'm going to stop talking like that. But he goes, I liked it, man, it was good. He's like, I got the money, I got the life. He goes, but I only want to work here and there. And Dave's like, well, what kind of business? He's like a track. He's like, I just passed 11th grade, I worked hard, I got the right people. He's like, I'm getting offered 20 million. I'm bringing in 2 million. So he's getting offered a 10x, right? 10x. I think he could probably get more than that. But moral of the story is Dave said, what are you going to do with the money? He goes, I'm only 42 years old. And he goes, so you're wondering, do you keep the cash flow or do you take the lump sum? Now in my mind I'm going, dude, take the cash. Dave's like, well, what are you going to do with the money? And because he's like, I'm not working now. The business runs itself. I'm just curious, what would be your take on that? I'm sure there's further questions you want to ask, but what would you do?

A (52:08)

Well, generally speaking, you know, someone that has grown content in their business is really the, the theme in which I'm hearing, you know, this gentleman is with where he's at. But that's today, you know, fast forward, you know, five years down the road. Is his current state of contentment, is it going to feed the growth? Is it going to keep him nimble, Is it going to keep him competing? Or are others in the marketplace that are hungrier going to work harder to get an access market share? Some of that could be his existing clients and it may or may not be. But the point is there's always someone that's hungrier than, than us. And you have to assume that if you have reached this level and place of contentment, it's usually a deteriorating mathematical equation, right? It's not always going to stay like this. I was, you think about, I don't know, in 2007, 2008, when we had the Great Recession, right. I had clients that were in architectural engineering and construction, new construction, and they thought the world's never going to end, it was only going to get better. Well, what happened? Well, money stopped flowing, new construction stopped overnight. These companies shut their doors or they were working on jobs at break even just to keep the doors open. Right. And so I don't say that as a doom and gloom, but I'm just using history to, to, to not predict the future. But history does repeat itself, right? We do go through economic cycles. And so the question is, are we ready for those economic cycles? But if we're working an hour a week or that may be an exaggeration, but we have to assume there's someone working with more capital than you, with more hunger than you, and they're going to get creative on how to gain and access additional market share. And so I'm with think you in his situation, he should de risk, roll some equity forward, give himself that opportunity and that ability. If he wants to work a week, an hour a week, so be it. Sign a con, a consulting agreement that explains exactly that. But then pour into a team that's going to continue that legacy. And it's going to. You're going to pass the baton to. But meanwhile, you have a lump sum of cash in the bank. You've de. Risked yourself. You're reinvesting that money in some capacity, and you're giving yourself a bright future to grow into scale. Because, look, I don't know about you, but if. If you or I started working an hour a week, our cultures will change. We will lose good people. That's what I've seen.

B (55:04)

You know, I think a lot about that, and I'm going to. One of the things that I think most people don't understand is the money that's working that I took. I took the chips off the table, and I got it at the right time. The S P had just dumped one year in 2022. I dumped all the money in 2023. And it's like, man, I look at the Goldman account and I'm like, man, we jumped up getting great, great, great returns. And I think people got to realize when you take chips off the table, that money's working for you. That money is actually like making money. It's. Einstein said it compound interest is the most powerful thing in the universe. And so you got to understand. Plus, I got into a. I was at a service time panel. We were talking on stage to a guy that said he would never sell. And I said, I'm going to sell over and over. And I said, you know, and I got tears in my eyes. I said, my parents are in their 70s. I said, I had an opportunity. I always had money, but not fu money. I said, they're living in a nicer house. They're going on vacation. I just flew my mom to Italy. She went with my uncle. Like, they are retired. They got. They could do anything. They get a quality of life they've never had. And that to me meant more than anything because, I don't know, they could live another 20 years. They could go tomorrow. I don't know. I don't know if I'm gonna go tomorrow. I know that could get hit by a bus. But I said there was other people. I paid $100 million out on the first deal. 100 million went out, though. That was me doing it. No, through the EIP now. They earned it. I didn't give it away. They had earned it. But I'm like. And then this is what really bothered me, Brian, is people go, I, I need you to take care of my people. It's All I care about, I'm like, how much are you giving them in the transaction? Well, nothing. That's my money, but I need you to make sure you pay them better. And I just, I see people like talking on both sides. I'm like, I love my people, just take care. The culture's perfect. Well, what are you going to give them? Did you give, you're not going to give them anything for the 10 years they gave to you?

A (56:55)

I'm almost every transaction, any sort of key personnel, employees or leaders, we make sure we structure typically a 10% management pool for them because. And then that management pool could fully vest at the closing table or better, in my opinion, have invest a couple of years beyond the closing table, but give them value because they got you to where you are today, not solely, not independently, but collectively. And so I'm like you, I, I like to eat at the table with others and if I'm eating all the food at the table, you know, I'm not going to make friends and I'm not going to build partners that are going to want to stick, stick around is the punchline. So I think that, you know, those that are hard set on, you know, they're never selling or, you know, they're never exiting. I, I call bs. I call BS because when they fast forward in time, they will exit, you know, because most, Tommy, most home service businesses, you know, they think they're building a business, but in reality they're building an asset that they don't fully understand. And the ones who structure it properly like you have, they create generational wealth. They, they are given the tools to be able to send their family on like you described, vacations and, and have a better lifestyle. And, and that is something that, I mean, what a better form of, to show your love and appreciation for those people that, you know, you've interacted with along your journey. And so I think that, I think that's short sighted. I think it's, I don't think it's appropriate. I think, I think that those that helped you get to where you are should certainly be able to access some of that wealth at some capacity. And, and that is good for the business, which is an asset and that provides continuity of, of predictable revenue streams for the business owners, whoever that may be, might be one or might be 20, but it gives that business the opportunity to continue to grow and scale and it develops a great culture.

B (59:08)

I couldn't agree more. What do you think, Brian? Right now I talk to my real estate friends. Some of them are Brokers, some of them own commercial real estate. Some developers are SaaS products. And they all say, dude, I've been listening to your podcast. I'm going to start buying H Vac companies or I'm going to get into the plumbing industry. And I go, what do you know about it? Do you know anything about capacity planning? You know anything about seasonality? They're like, well, look, I meet some of these guys, if they could do it, I could do it. And I'm not saying it does work out. Like there's a lot of private equity guys that say, I'm just gonna go buy my own business, they were a partner. But I'm gonna say it fails more often than not because there's a lot of things that go into this and you're trying to herd blue collar guys that sometimes we didn't grow up with moms, we didn't feel the love, we didn't pass seventh grade. And so I think it's a very difficult business to just say, I'm just gonna go start that. It's a lot harder than opening up a McDonald's.

A (60:04)

It is, you know, and there's a lot of. It's a seductive thought, right? Because you know, 20 years ago home services wasn't a thing. You know, I mean look at, look at car washes, right?

B (60:18)

Yeah.

A (60:18)

25 years ago no one was buying car washes. Now you have groups like Leonard Green Partners out of Los Angeles, a massive equity group. They own a portfolio called Mr. Car Wash. And they buy, you know, exterior only car washes. And why, you know what they really do when you look at their thesis, they're buying companies that have some sort of membership, right? Because you could buy unlimited reoccurring revenue, recurring revenue. What's reoccurring revenue? Recurring revenue is predictable revenue. Predictable revenue is what investors want and what business owners want. So I think it's, it is seductive to think, yeah, I'll go buy an H VAC company, a plumbing company, a roofing company, whatever it may be. But there is a lot of know how that you cannot access just by buying a company. You have to be the boots on the ground at some point. You have to experience what that sales like what it feels like to knock on a door, to win it, win a job, to lose jobs. There's so much learning in that because it's a, it's a humbling experiences as you and I both know. And part of what I think is part of our growth as entrepreneurs is experience and humility at some capacity. And for some of us it's different. All of us, it's different. But the common theme there is humility. There's. I mean, look, I don't know about you, but I have learned more when I've been humbled than times that I've been, you know, succeeding.

B (61:52)

Failure. Yeah.

A (61:53)

And yeah, there's so much learning and some people call it the dumb tax. But I, I like to say, look, I've, I'm here to say I've never lost money in business. But Tommy, I paid a lot of tuitions to learn the things that I've learned along the way.

B (62:10)

I love it. Speed round. What's the fastest way a founder accidentally destroys enterprise value? Without realizing it,

A (62:19)

they, they strip the cash out of the business and, and weaken their equity position.

B (62:25)

Oh, I love that they're paying themselves a fat. They're not investing in growth or the people. How do buyers really think about key person risk and what systems remove the founder from being the bottleneck?

A (62:39)

SOPs and documented systems will help replace a founder because ultimately you need to download everything that's in that founder's brain and put it into the systems of the company. And that allows the business to be de. Risked. But also it empowers the machine that they built to continue to grow and scale.

B (62:59)

Is there anything you recommend for like an LMS or SOPS or manuals and checklists? Is there a tool that you really like that actually you've seen go to market and that's the cleanest. Like, like, I'll give you an example. Like I've heard a Trainual.

A (63:13)

Yeah. Train you. Yeah. I mean there's Trainual. There's, you know, the real Brad Lee at light.

B (63:20)

Yeah. Light speed.

A (63:21)

Virtual training. Yeah. So, you know, I, I think there's a lot of good programs. I think Brad Lee has a great program. He's, he's tried and proven but he's customizing those sorts of training through the lightspeed network that I personally have experienced. Works very well. In fact, we, we're launching a, a training program called Empire Builders, which is basically a community that's deriving from my book the Inevitable Exit. But I, I do like lightspeed virtual training. Trainual is also good. I've heard great things, but there's always some level of customization and there's really good SOP implementers or EOs implementers out there. I think you need a couple. Not just the system, but also the customization.

B (64:13)

What's one operational upgrade that consistently leads to an outsized valuation?

A (64:17)

Multiple financial readiness. Financial Readiness is so key.

B (64:23)

Like you're on Q of E and audited financials.

A (64:27)

Yeah. Even, even before a Q of E. I mean, you have to be quality of earnings ready. But to be QV ready, you have to have a CFO or equivalent in the business because they're going to be making measurements that you're just not making and they're going to be your translator to institutional investors and lenders, like debt lenders and things of such. But I think that the number one area that we see valuation deteriorate is the lack of financial controls and reporting. And you know, some of us, most of us report our financials on a cash basis system. Well, cash basis accounting only tells you what you deposited where accrual method accounting is going to tell you what jobs you, what work in progress do you have in place, what is your and your AP look like, what jobs are, are where and have they started, have they not started? Because there's always this progressive billing that occurs. Right. And a big example is you could take on a big job, buy all the materials for that job and still not get paid on it at that moment in time. So you've really deteriorated your income, your cat, your, your net income. That is. And so that is going to provide a skewed picture of your business and it's not going to be representative of how well you're really doing. So cash to accrual conversion is key and most often a fractional CFO or full time CFO will help you get there.

B (65:58)

Two more questions and then we'll close out. What's one hard truth about exits that most advisors won't tell founders but you will?

A (66:09)

I constantly tell them they're not ready. You know. Yes, our work at Meritage Partners is transactional in nature. We do want to get to the transaction, but. But we don't want to push them prematurely into a transaction because we will not meet their expectations. And so we need to understand the expectation, set the expectation and then meet that expectation. And that ultimately does not occur while marketing the company for sale. It occurs prior to going to market.

B (66:40)

I love that. I'm thinking about writing a book. It won't be this year, probably next year, but it's, you know, I've got a family office now. I've got a house manager, I've got a driver, I've got a chef. I'm not bragging. I bought back a lot of time and I screwed up a lot. Setting up my family and my household and getting everything dialed and what cars to buy and how to keep everything insured. That was like when, when the house manager said, how do you want down service? I'm like, what does that even mean? And it's like before you go to bed. And I'm like, I've never, I've never had anything like this. And all of a sudden people look at you a little bit differently. You get attacked the first year. You go out and spend all this money, but you really don't know what you're doing. So I want to write this book after the money comes and the loneliness and, and, and how do you set these things up if you're interested? What's the amount? Who's, who's the people that are the sharks are going to attack? Because all the people in the deal, you're going to sit on a phone call and you're going to go, yes. Are you ready? Yes. And there's a lot of yeses. And then all of a sudden this wire comes in. For me, it was 30 days because it was a significant amount. And I'm like, is there any way I could lose this money? And they're like, just don't get in a car accident or do anything stupid or dui. But, but I was, it's just, it's a big event and all of a sudden your life is no longer your life that you had, especially if you do a full exit. So what is your best advice? Because I was very fortunate. My president set me up with Goldman. I got the right tax advisor. I mean, it's a whole different team I walked into. But for you, what would you get? Tell somebody that just did an exit.

A (68:24)

I think you said it best. I mean, it really comes down to having the right team and the right protectors around you because you know, you know what you know and you, and you know what you don't know. You know, don't always know what you don't know. But having the team that have been there and done that is, is crucial. And the fact that you're considering writing that book, I mean, I'd be happy to participate in whatever capacity you like, but the reality is you're going to be going into uncharted territory and in really, this is an evolution of ourselves. Right. And so as you evolve, you know, typically, I find that evolutions are typically positive, but they can be negative. But if you can evolve yourself by having good advisors around you and good protectors around you, that will help you become more clear on what you're exiting into.

B (69:13)

How do people get a hold of you? Brian?

A (69:17)

Well, I appreciate you asking that. You know, if this conversation hit home for people, I mean, I, I think that they should certainly pick up the book Inevitable Exit. They could find that inevitableexit.com on there. We have a free list of 10 things that will kill your exit and your legacy. Something that everyone should be mindful of and aware of. But if you want to reach out to our firm, Meritage partners, we're@meritage partners.com and we happy to be happy to book a discovery call with you and our team to learn more about your specific expectations and needs and really build out a roadmap for you. Because the goal isn't always to sell tomorrow. The goal is to build so that you're equipped to sell when you're ready.

B (70:04)

Give me one book that changed your life and the. The way you look at life or just the most influential book.

A (70:11)

Yeah, I mean, there are so many. I mean, the Bible is going to be an obvious one, but a more recent book that I've read a couple times is the Power of Now by Eck Eckhart Tolle. And the power of now forces us really to think about what we have power over, and that's of this moment right now. We can't control the past. We can't change the past. And if we're constantly thinking about the future, we're going to miss what's happening right here, right now. And that book has really made me mindful of, as the book is titled, the Power of Now.

B (70:47)

Be where your feet are. Last thing I'll do, Brian, is let you close us out with anything you want that you want the audience to listen to.

A (70:55)

Well, you know, again, those that have been really. If we provoke thought in you, if you're looking at this and you're hearing Tommy's story and you're thinking about what's next for you, this is your time to make a move. This is your time to set the trajectory of the rest of your life here on earth. So join us. One of our training, you could see me online. We put a lot of content out there, but we're here for you. We want to meet you wherever you are on your journey and help you build for your inevitable exit. And we. I really appreciate the time, Tommy. This has been. I could do this. I could do this for a couple more hours, quite honestly, but looking forward to spending more time.

B (71:33)

Yeah, I love this, Brian. I got a lot out of the whole conversation and I think this. People need to be aware of what's out there and get educated and the more, you know, the more bright people you get. I mean, you're building significant wealth, but also you're building freedom too. And I think we miss that is you. You know, I've always said I want to do what I want, when I want, with who I want. And it doesn't make me work any less harder. It just opens up. I call money fun tickets. It's not going to change who I am though. It'll never change the real. The real Tommy Mello. So, Brian, this has been amazing. I really appreciate you jumping on today.

A (72:09)

I. I appreciate it as well and looking forward to seeing you again.

B (72:12)

We will for sure. Thank you.

A (72:13)

All right.

B (72:14)

Hey there. Thanks for tuning into the podcast today. Before I let you go, I want to let everybody know that Elevate is out and ready to buy. I can share with you how I attracted a winning team of over 700 employees in over 20 states. The insights in this book are powerful and can be applied to any business or organization. It's a real game changer for anyone looking to build and develop a high performing company team like over here at A1 garage door service. So if you want to learn the secrets that help me transfer my team from stealing the toilet paper to a group of 700 plus employees rowing in the same direction, head over to elevateandwin. Com podcast and grab a copy of the book. Thanks again for listening and we'll catch up with you next time on the podcast.