344: Sammy "The Bull" Gravano - Made Men, Made Right

Summary

Podcast Summary: Episode 344 - Sammy "The Bull" Gravano: Made Men, Made Right

Released on July 28, 2025, on "The HoneyDew with Ryan Sickler," this episode features an in-depth conversation between host Ryan Sickler and Sammy "The Bull" Gravano, a notorious former mobster. The discussion delves into Gravano's life in the Mafia, his pivotal role in high-profile criminal activities, and his personal reflections on his past actions.

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1. Introduction

The episode begins with Ryan Sickler welcoming listeners and introducing Sammy Gravano. Ryan provides a brief overview of Gravano's infamous history, highlighting his rise to the position of underboss in the Gambino crime family and his eventual cooperation with the government.

Notable Quote:

Ryan Sickler [02:06]: "I am very excited to have this guest here with me today. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Sammy the Bull. Salvatore. Let me say Salvatore Salvato."

2. Early Life and First Hit

Gravano recounts his entry into the Mafia, detailing his first experience with violence. He discusses his military background and the transition into organized crime, emphasizing the impact of his first murder.

Key Points:

• Born Salvatore Gravano on March 12, 1945.
• Served in the military, discharged in 1966.
• First hit completed in his 20s after joining the Colombo family.

Notable Quote:

Sammy Gravano [03:37]: "I think it's the first hit I did with Joe Colucci. I was with the Colombo family. I did that hit."

3. Coping with Violence

Gravano describes his initial reaction to committing murder, contrasting his expectations influenced by movies with the stark reality of his actions. He shares a vivid account of killing a man in a car while listening to The Beatles' "Let It Be."

Key Points:

• Intended to experience nervousness and confusion typical of movie portrayals.
• Killed the target multiple times to ensure the hit was successful.
• Surprised by his ability to function normally afterward.

Notable Quote:

Sammy Gravano [05:25]: "And when I shot him in the head, the song was playing the Beatles songs, Let It Be on the radio."

4. The Johnny Keys Hit

One of the most gripping segments involves Gravano's recounting of the "mission impossible" hit on Johnny Keys, a high-profile mobster in Philadelphia. He details the planning, execution, and emotional complexities of the operation.

Key Points:

• Johnny Keys was a heavily protected and shrewd mobster, making him a challenging target.
• Gravano manipulates the situation to gain Keys' trust, portraying himself as a weak link.
• Successfully captures and kills Keys with assistance from his crew, demonstrating strategic planning and ruthless efficiency.

Notable Quotes:

Sammy Gravano [12:03]: "I would come here when he make you as an example. I would come here. I would say, okay, he comes here on Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays, and he's here from."

Sammy Gravano [24:09]: "I snatched him from the golf course. When we got out, we were walking. There was a van. In the van was my crew. Automatic weapons, pistols, everything."

5. Reflections on Mafia Life

Gravano reflects on his life in the Mafia, discussing his sense of loyalty, the psychological toll of his actions, and his eventual decision to cooperate with authorities. He touches upon his relationships with other mobsters, including his respect for leadership figures like Paul Castellano and John Gotti.

Key Points:

• Felt no remorse immediately after his first hit but later grappled with the emotional impact.
• Maintained strong ties and mutual respect within the Mafia hierarchy.
• Despite cooperating, he emphasizes his continued respect and loyalty to his former associates.

Notable Quote:

Sammy Gravano [10:30]: "He said, sammy, this was a commission hit, and I'm your boss, and I gave you the hit. It's as high as it gets. Anybody in your position right now would be on cloud nine."

6. Transition to Witness Protection and Beyond

The conversation shifts to Gravano's cooperation with the government and his experience with the witness protection program. He expresses skepticism about the effectiveness of such programs and details his attempts to maintain his identity despite government efforts.

Key Points:

• Served a shortened sentence for cooperating, which he critiques as insufficient.
• Resisted full compliance with witness protection, desiring to retain his true identity.
• Experienced strained relationships post-cooperation but maintains minimal contact with former associates.

Notable Quote:

Sammy Gravano [60:27]: "I went back to Arizona and I changed my name from Jimmy Moran to Salvatore Gravano. I'm currently right after that. Eight months. I quit the program. I don't need your help, your money, protection. I don't need anything."

7. Personal Losses and Continued Influence

Gravano shares personal anecdotes, including the tragic incident where his son was accidentally hit by a car, and the subsequent interactions with the victim's family. These stories highlight the unintended consequences of his violent lifestyle and the enduring emotional scars.

Key Points:

• His son’s accident deeply affected him, reinforcing his desire to disconnect from his past.
• Demonstrates a complex mix of remorse and acceptance regarding his actions.
• Continues to grapple with the legacy of his violent past and its impact on others.

Notable Quote:

Sammy Gravano [73:17]: "When I was getting sentenced and hit the papers, I had about 48 months in. So I went back and the unit manager called me and he says, congratulations, you got four more months to go."

8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode concludes, Gravano offers advice to younger generations, urging them to avoid the perilous path he took. He emphasizes the importance of education and legitimate work over the destructive allure of organized crime.

Key Points:

• Advises against entering the Mafia, highlighting the personal and familial costs.
• Reflects on his life choices with a sense of regret and a desire for redemption.
• Shares his ongoing projects, including potential movies about his life, signaling a shift towards sharing his story openly.

Notable Quote:

Sammy Gravano [73:54]: "Go to school, get a fucking job, work fucking hard you may make some less money and things like that, but you don't have to look over your shoulder all your life."

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Episode Highlights:

• Detailed account of Gravano's first murder and his realization of the realities of mob life.
• The strategic and meticulous planning behind the assassination of Johnny Keys.
• Insight into the emotional and psychological aftermath of living a life of crime.
• Gravano's interactions with law enforcement and his complex feelings towards cooperation and protection programs.
• Personal stories that humanize Gravano, showcasing the unintended tragedies of his actions.

Overall Impression: This episode provides a raw and unfiltered glimpse into the life of one of America's most infamous mobsters. Through Gravano's candid storytelling, listeners gain an understanding of the intricate balance between loyalty, power, and personal morality within the Mafia. The narrative is both gripping and introspective, offering valuable lessons on the consequences of a life steeped in organized crime.

Transcript

[Ryan Sickler]

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[Unknown]

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[Ryan Sickler]

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[Unknown]

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[Sammy Gravano]

The Honeydew with Ryan Sickler. Welcome back to the Honeydew, y'.

[Unknown]

All.

[Sammy Gravano]

We're over here doing it in the Night Pants studios. I'm Ryan Sickler. Ryan Sickler.com Ryan Sickler on all your social media, starting this episode like I start them all by saying thank you. Thank you for supporting this show. Thank you for supporting this channel. If you gotta have more and you gotta have the Patreon, it's this show. It's the Honeydew with y'.

[Unknown]

All.

[Sammy Gravano]

And y' all have the wildest stories on the Internet. I promise you, it's the craziest show on Patreon. It's five bucks a month. And if you or someone you know has a story that has to be heard, please submit it to honeydewpodcastmail.com all right, that's the biz. You guys know what we do here? We highlight the lowlights. Always say that these are the stories behind the storytellers. I am very excited to have this guest here with me today. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Sammy the Bual. Salvatore. Let me say Salvatore Salvator.

[Unknown]

Sammy the Bu.

[Sammy Gravano]

Thank you very much for being here.

[Unknown]

My pleasure.

[Sammy Gravano]

Let me promote your stuff here real quick. You can follow you good going by Sammy.

[Unknown]

Yeah, sure.

[Sammy Gravano]

Follow Sammy at official Sammy the Bull on Instagram and YouTube. That's where you can follow him. Keep up with them. So as I said, you know, I. I do my little research online, and you never know what's true. But your son's here, and he came over and he said, no, this is accurate. So you're born Salvatore Gravano, March 12, 1945. On March 8, you're a Pisces. And you're an American former mobster who rose to the position of underboss in the Gambino crime family of New York City before becoming a government. Government witness. And as the underboss, you played a major role in prosecuting John Gotti, the crime family's boss, by agreeing to testify as a government witness against him and other mobsters in a deal. And as part of the agreement, you confess to your involvement in at least 19 murders.

[Unknown]

It's true.

[Sammy Gravano]

It's all true. And you're 80 now?

[Unknown]

I'm 80? Yes.

[Sammy Gravano]

Dude, you look fantastic for the life you've led, too.

[Unknown]

I mean, I'm 80 going on 60.

[Sammy Gravano]

You got. You got five.

[Unknown]

Mentally, I feel 60.

[Sammy Gravano]

Good for you.

[Unknown]

All right.

[Sammy Gravano]

I sat down last night, and I came up with some questions I'd like to ask you, and I'm gonna jump into. Because you're 80 now, I want to ask you questions going back. So what's the one moment from your childhood that you think made the actual killer in you possible?

[Unknown]

I think it's the first hit I did with Joe Colucci. I was with the Colombo family. I did that hit.

[Sammy Gravano]

How old are you at that time? You a teenager?

[Unknown]

No, not a teenager. I was in my 20s. I don't remember what year it was to give you my exact age, but I was young. I got out of the military in 1966, and I made that hit. I hooked up with the Colombo family, and I was given the hit. That was my first hit.

[Sammy Gravano]

Now, do they tell you anything, or they just tell you this is what you're going to do? They give you a backstory, like, this is who this person is, and this is why, or is it, hey, this is the job. Go do this?

[Unknown]

Yeah. Sometimes they give you a backstory. Sometimes they just give you the hit, and you got to do it. So it's immaterial, but on the first hit, they gave me a backstory, and I went out and did it.

[Sammy Gravano]

And you say you were confused after.

[Unknown]

Well, I was stunned. How? You know, I saw movies about a guy the first time he's ever killed anybody, and he was all nervous and all screwed up and stuff like that. So I thought that would happen to me. I thought that was normal. When I did the hit, I killed a guy in a car. And after we were done, we dumped the body. I mean, I shot him in the head. When I shot him in the head, the song was playing the Beatles songs, Let It Be on the radio.

[Sammy Gravano]

No, his radio.

[Unknown]

No, it was our car.

[Sammy Gravano]

Okay?

[Unknown]

And I shot him in the head. He didn't move. And I was confused what to do, and I shot him again. And then his body slid over to the passenger side window. And we went from Brooklyn to, you know, Queens. And that's where we dumped the body. I got out, I picked him up, I pulled him out of the car, I threw him on the grass. I got back in the car, opened the window, I. I shot him three more times.

[Sammy Gravano]

Oh, okay.

[Unknown]

So I shot him already. Twice in the head and three times in the body. I got rid of the gun, cleaned up the car, did everything I had to do. The next day I went home that night, I took a shower, waiting for this stuff to happen to me. And nothing happened. I went to bed.

[Sammy Gravano]

You slept?

[Unknown]

Slept like a baby. You did? Yeah.

[Sammy Gravano]

That's what I want to ask. You slept, huh? Did you eat a meal? Did you eat after that?

[Unknown]

No.

[Sammy Gravano]

When's the first time you had a regular meal after your first?

[Unknown]

The next day job?

[Sammy Gravano]

You did. And you were okay, you were hungry, you woke up fine.

[Unknown]

Listen, when I woke up, there was a couple girls in the apartment. I was living with a few guys, and everybody was talking and they said, oh, my God, Joe Colucci got killed last night and his body was found in Queensland in the neighborhood. And I said, it's in the newspaper. Yeah. Do they know who did it? And she says, no. Well, they're investigating it, but they don't know who did it yet. And they all left. And I took my shower and I went down and I almost felt like I had an out of body moment. Felt like I was way up in the air looking down at all these kids talking on the corner and stuff like that. It's like I was watching and listening, and I wasn't there until somebody touched my arm and said, shorty's going to come and pick us up. And I went down seeing Carmine Persico. And when I saw him, the guy was with me, Tommy Sparrow, in the car. He explained that he was Shorty's nephew, and he explained what happened. And he congratulated me, kissed me on the cheek, did a great job. He said, you get rid of the gun? I said, yeah, I threw it in the ocean already. And he says, you cleaned the car? I said, yes. Wow. With rags. And I did certain things. He said, good, get rid of the car. Burn. It is always DNA that they can find. Burn the car. So I didn't know about all that stuff. I did it.

[Sammy Gravano]

So that's another question I wanted to ask you by your. Listen, your job's your job. By your job with the cleanup and all that stuff, your level. What do you say? Okay, this is acceptable. You understand what I'm asking? Like, when you finish a job and you clean up, you go, okay, we're done. Now what is it? What is a good job done mean to you? I know, the job job, but what about that cleanup? What when it's good? Like when you're comfortable saying, all right, we can leave now.

[Unknown]

Well, when the body is gone, the gun is gone, everything is cleaned up. I tell whoever was there, give me all your clothes, shirt, pants, shoes, socks, underwear, everything that was there, and we're going to get rid of it, go buy new stuff. And I make sure of every detail is taken care of and done. Now I relax a little bit.

[Sammy Gravano]

And is that a mental list you always had?

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah. Well, I didn't always have it, but I had it. But let me explain, going back to the first thing after I was kissed and by Carmine Persico. I did a great job. And this, that. The other day when I walked away and left, I said, well, when I was taking a shower, I didn't feel anything. When I went to bed, I slept like a baby, baby. The next morning when I got up, I went out. I had that additive out of body experience and all of this stuff. And then I thought, after the meeting will come my pers. I have to be a natural born killer. I had no remorse, I had no feelings. I had no nothing. I did what I was supposed to do as a soldier in Cosa Rostro. I knew the reasons. The reasons were good. He broke rules. He did stupid, really stupid. And. And that bothered me a little bit. I went to his funeral as well.

[Sammy Gravano]

You did? So wait, you're saying it bothered you, that it didn't bother you?

[Unknown]

Yes. Interesting. Didn't understand myself. I said, why didn't I go through these things and everything? And I remember when I went to the coffin, I paid my respects, and I turned around and I looked at the family, and the family was crying. And that bothered me. The damage I did to the family who were alive, not him. So. And I kind of knew that I was in the Mafia and that I was comfortable in this area in this, doing hits. I always knew, even as a kid growing up, if you're going to be in the Mafia, you'll be doing hits. That was just the neighborhood you grew up. It was just part of the life. So I knew that, but I didn't know that I would be comfortable with it and I would be good at it. Years later, guys would turn around and say, if Sammy's got you hit, you're dead. Because I was a thinker. I was a planner. If I had your hit, I would get to know you better than you.

[Sammy Gravano]

Know yourself in person or all of them.

[Unknown]

I would come here when he make you as an example. I would come here. I would say, okay, he comes here on Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays, and he's here from.

[Sammy Gravano]

And you're just chasing it outside.

[Unknown]

I watch. Yeah, I know where you live. I know who your wife is. I know who your kids are, what schools they go to. I know you got a girlfriend that you go see every Tuesday. I know where she lives. I know what time you go see her every Tuesday. I get all the facts, everything about you.

[Sammy Gravano]

How long would you say that would take?

[Unknown]

You could be. Take a couple weeks.

[Sammy Gravano]

Weeks.

[Unknown]

It could take a couple of weeks. But at the end of a couple of weeks, I know exactly where I'm going to keep, where I'm protected. My crew, who's with me is protected. And then I make my move. And you don't stand a chance because every back door, everything you have, is closed.

[Sammy Gravano]

Was there ever a job that you stalled on or delayed or was ever one where you're like, I don't. I don't want to. Not that you don't want to because you're a soldier, but, like, maybe this one is one that you'd rather not do.

[Unknown]

Oh, there's a couple of times that I, you know, I had a Johnny Keys hit. Was a major hit in Philadelphia. There was a war. Angelo Bruno was the boss of a family. He was killed. There was two sides. Johnny Keys had one side. He was Angelo Bruno's cousin. He had 20, 30 guys with him all the time. They were in a war. He had 50 hits under his belt. He was an old timer. And then there was the other side. The commission backed the other side to kill Johnny Keys. They couldn't do it. They calling it a mission impossible hit. It was well guarded, very shrewd. And I was given that hit. I was sitting in the club with Toddo playing cards. This is how it started. And Toddo says, somebody take his cards, take his hand. Sammy, come with me. Drive me to the boss's house. And I did. Somebody saw two made guys meeting with Johnny Keys in a restaurant. And they went back to the commission and they told him, Paul Castellano is probably double banging everybody. He's back on the other side, his men are meeting with him and they. They can't kill him. Now, the two guys were with Toddo. They were made guys from Jersey, but they were with Toddo. That's how Toddo got called. So he said, well, bring Nikki Russo and Pal Joey in to another meeting. I want to talk to them. Because when I walked into the commission, I got blamed for backing the wrong side. And I denied it. And they said, well, if your guys could meet with him and you don't know nothing about it now you do, then you have the contract. And he was pissed. He didn't want this contract. So the second time I went back with Toddo and Nikki Russo, Pal Joey, who bumped into him, Paul was ripping into them. You know, there's a war. The fuck you meeting with him for? And they were, listen, we know there's a war. We didn't talk to him. We know him for years. We were just bullshitting in the restaurant. We didn't do anything. Well, we have the contract now. He looked over Toddle shoulder. He looked at me. I was only a driver. I was a made guy already. I was actually an acting captain because a year after I got made in 1976, I. A year later, I was an acting captain. He looked over Tyler's shoulder and he said, sammy, could you get this done? Now, I knew the stories about the war, about everything. I knew about this Johnny Keys, his reputation, how many guys he has.

[Sammy Gravano]

I was going to say how protected.

[Unknown]

He was, how protected he was. And I know they were calling it the impossible hit. Mission Impossible sounded like fucking one of the movies.

[Sammy Gravano]

Yeah. Had people tried before? Yeah, they had.

[Unknown]

They can't get them. So he says, I'm going to give you the hit. Could you get it done? I was shocked a little bit. I was just the driver. And I looked at him and I says, probably. I mean, I don't know the area around there. I don't know what he looks like, but I could work on it. And he said to Nikki and Joey, you're on this hit with him. You do everything he tells you to do. Get this fucking thing done. And I went back, I grabbed my crew, I talked to my crew, I told them what situation we were in. And I brought Nikki and Joey in with my crew. Talking to them. And it really was a mission impossible type of thing. Long story short, I got it done. I made meetings with him. In the meetings, I told Pal Joey and Nikki Russo, mainly Nikki Russo, go to him and tell him that Paul Castellano wants to send this guy Sammy. Don't say Sammy to bolt. Sammy. And he just got made. Use these words. He's a jerk off, no balls type of guy. Just got made. The reason Paul uses him is he brings messages back and forth. Precisely. He's very good at that. I want to instill that in his brain. They did that. They made an appointment with him, with me, my guys, everybody says, sammy, you're going to go to this fucking place and you're going to meet with him. He's got a. An army of guys. I said, I know, but I want to meet him. I got to know him. I got to find out. And I went to the meeting. When I got there, they obviously searched me. Nicky and Joey, they're his friend. He let them in, too. And they were feeling every part of my body, banging me around a little bit. And you know, I'm a punk. I'm a jerk off. I'm this, I'm that. So I think they were elbowing me and pushing and just wanted to see a reaction from me. And I knew if I lost my temper, they would say, I thought, he's a punk. All of a sudden, he's a tough guy. So I knew I just had to take it. And I acted scared. And, guys, I was sitting here, what are you doing? Why would you do that? And. And I went in and I sat with him and I met with him. There's a few times I went back on a second meeting, and everybody said, no, don't do it. This guy's cunning. Mickey Russo told me, sammy, if he thinks for one second that you're bullshitting him or lying to him, you're going to be in the basement. They're going to torture you to find out the truth, and they're going to kill you. I understand. Make the appointment. Toddo was my captain. He hugged me a lot stronger than he normally hugged me, kissed me on the cheek, and when we pulled away, I noticed the tear coming right down his face. He thought I was going to be killed. Yeah.

[Sammy Gravano]

He thought, that's the last time he's seeing your ass.

[Unknown]

Yeah. But I went to that meeting. I survived that meeting. I gave him a whole cock and bull story how Paul wanted to back him. We're going to have to have a meeting. We're going to have to do this, that and the other thing. While I'm talking to him, I saw him like this. His finger near his mouth, and he was looking up in the air. He was thinking. I had to break his thought. So I said, john, I want to be honest with you. I'm so scared, I can't even talk, My mouth is so dry. Could I get something to drink? Looked at me, turned around to his guys, get him some fucking water. And I got water. And he says, this is heavy, isn't it, kid? Yeah. Bringing messages back and forth. Yeah. Yes, to me, it's very heavy. You know, I'm. I'm being honest. I'm a little nervous. These guys were banging me around at the door, you know. He says, well, you're involved in heavy. You're everything they told me. Now, I told them to tell them I'm a punk. I'm all the shit. So he bought it. But the most important thing is he wasn't thinking anymore. And he was talking to me like what I am and all this other bullshit. I broke his thought. That's what was important to me. Then I told him, I think you're going to like this part. There's going to be a meeting between you and Paul, and the Gambino family is going to want you to win the war. You to become the boss out here and be on the commission. He's going to take you back. He's going to give you guys shooters, guns, money, whatever it takes. I said, I think you're going to like this part. You pick the place, place that you're comfortable, you're safe. Paul is safe. Tommy Balani is his driver. You know that. He'll be there. I think I'll be there because I'm going to take you there. Nikki Russo and pal Joey will also be there. They're your friends, and you're going to have all this information. He said, great, that's great. I have a golf course. There's armed guards at the gate to get in or out. I am a member of that. So is Nikki Russo. That sounds good. Then in the clubhouse, you and Paul will meet. We'll probably be sitting on the side. One thing. No guns. None of these guys, no guns, no nothing at this meeting. Tell him, yeah, that's the place. And he smiled. I smile. He got what he wanted, being safe in the golf club. I smile because that's where I'm going to kill him. When I was walking out, that big guy hit me with an elbow again in my in my side. Almost took the fucking wind out of me. I looked at him and I smiled. And he says, all right, tough guy. I was smiling in my head. I said, I hope you can come to this meeting, because I'm going to kill him too. But anyway, the meetings happened, and I snatched him. I was in a van with him for 13 hours.

[Sammy Gravano]

Oh, you got him like that.

[Unknown]

I snatched him from the golf course. When we got out, we were walking. There was a van. In the van was my crew. Automatic weapons, pistols, everything. And they knew I was in good shape. And I was young, real strong. I was gonna stutter step. He's one little bit ahead of me. I was gonna grab him in a bear hug. And I told my guys, as soon as you see that, that fucking door in the van opens up and you guys come out like a fucking SWAT team, pick him up off his fucking feet. We bring him in the van, we get the fuck out of this golf course. We'll kill him on the road and dump him. That's just what we did. When I grabbed him, the door opened up, they came flying out. He tried to kick his way out. He was stuck. He lied. He did have a gun, but he couldn't get it out. We got him in the van, we got the gun away from him, and we started driving back. And me and him, we had ties. His legs, ankles were tied together, his wrists were tied together. He sat there and he looked at me and he said I had a driver, a guy in a passenger seat, a guy in a love seat, what they call a love seat or whatever it is. And I'm in the back. Talk. He says, a punk, a bitch, a jerk off. Five fucking families. And the family in Philadelphia couldn't have me sitting in this fucking van. You're a hit guy? I said, yes, I am. He said, you're fucking up a little bit. Okay? How am I fucking up? He said, we're on the road. The windows in the back of the van are open. These truck drivers who pass by, they have the CBs and whatever they'll see in here, they'll see me tied up. They'll see you. They'll see these other guys. They'll call the police. You'll get caught. I looked at the back of the van out the window. I said, he's right. Get a rag or something, get some rags, cover those windows. But I thought to myself, why the fuck would he help me doing a hit on himself? Yeah, but he did. While we were going, he said, sam, I have a condition I got pills in my pocket. Take one of them out, put one under my tongue every five minutes. Have a heart condition. What's it? What kind of pills are nitroglycer? I went in, I took them out. Was nitroglycer. I took one out, I put it in the stock again. I asked myself, he's worried about dying of a heart attack. He knows he's going to die.

[Sammy Gravano]

He could go out like this right now.

[Unknown]

Yeah, exactly. So anyway, and we're talking like we're buddies from years ago and we were on the highway going back to New York, Staten Island. We were gonna go bring them back.

[Sammy Gravano]

You're just riding up 95 with the dude in the back of the van?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Sammy Gravano]

Jesus Christ. Okay, yeah.

[Unknown]

So while we were driving, pal Joey says, oh, my God. I said, what's the matter? He went like this and he says, I got the keys to the car and Nikki Russo's over there in that parking lot. Stop, pull over. We pull over, I open the door, get out, go back there, I don't give a fuck how far it is, start running and get back there. Tell me if Nikki's okay and the car is out of there and what happens. I'm not going to whack him before that. I know what the fuck is going on. I did have a gun too, but I had it wrapped and under the front seat way on the. But it's there. So if they saw this car and put two and two together. There's my gun with my prints all over it. Now this guy winds up dead, I'm dead. Go do that. He got out. That's why I'm with him so long. I'm waiting for a answer.

[Sammy Gravano]

I see.

[Unknown]

So all kinds of things come up while we're talking. And he says, sammy, I'm an extremely wealthy guy. I can make you very wealthy. I said, john, in our conversation you said, this is about kozanoshi. You didn't want the cops to interfere. I am starting to build a tremendous respect for you. This is cosa nostra, like you said. There's no money in the fucking world you can give me. I'm a thousand percent cosa Russo. I don't give a fuck about money or nothing else. I have a job. I don't have the actual order to kill you yet. That's why you're alive. I'm waiting on that. I'm not waiting on that. I'm waiting on the car to find out what the fuck is going on. But I feed him this bullshit story as well. He Takes it. Hey, that's no other choice. What's the difference? So we're coming in and we're driving, and we come to a toll booth. And I said, listen, John, what I'm going to do is put my hand over your mouth, I'm going to push you up against the side of the van, have one or two of these guys come, and we're going to just pin you to the side of the van. He said, you don't have to do that, Sammy. Again, the cops. This has got nothing to do with cops. This is us.

[Sammy Gravano]

Cosa Nostra that's blowing me away. I mean, is that with you a little bit at the time, too? Like, this guy is OG to the core.

[Unknown]

Oh, to the core. So I said, well, I'm sorry, but I got to do it. We push him up there. No struggle, no push, no nothing. No attempt whatsoever. And we go back to sitting in positions and we're talking about things. And he says, sammy, I'd like to ask you for a favor. Whatever it is, tell me whatever you want. If it's not you who pulls the trigger, make sure the guy is a friend of ours meeting a May guy. I want to die that way. You got it? He says, and don't let me be found with my shoes on.

[Sammy Gravano]

What's that about?

[Unknown]

I'm going to tell you, he says. And I said, all right, John, but why would you want that? And he said, sammy, my wife knows that who I am. My name is in the paper. She knows about the war. She reads, and she knows. She's scared to death. And I always tell her, don't worry about it. I will die at home with my shoes on, not in the street. Don't worry about it. So you're kind of sending her a message when you found that way that you were thinking of. Yes. He's in his 60s. She's in his 60s. To me, it was like a fucking love story. Now you got it. We keep going and conversation goes by, and he tells me some other stuff. And. And I'm thinking, oh, he tells me this. He says, I know you're not a punk. And I know. I know you're not. You're not afraid. And I know you're very smart. Want to ask you a question. When you were scared in the restaurant where we were, it was a private restaurant, his place, a pizzeria type of thing. Not a big restaurant. Nobody was there but his people. It's closed, he said. I was thinking for a while. And you said you were scared. You Couldn't talk you. Your mouth was dry, you wanted water. Were you breaking my thought?

[Sammy Gravano]

Damn, he remembered and called it, huh?

[Unknown]

So I said yes, I did. He started talking to me a while about things, some crazy shit and things. He was asking me and I'm saying to myself, is he breaking my thought? Do I have a surprise coming? But I didn't. We got into Staten Island. We pulled into a garage that was closed. The alleyway had all pebbles and stones. There was a crush shop in the backyard. Louis Molito, made guy with me, knew the guy, so we had access. That's where we pulled into that long driveway. And I made guys get away, and I made guys go and get coffee, donuts or whatever he wanted. I loosened the things on his wrists and his ankles. I told my guys I wanted to treat him with total respect. And they. I don't. I didn't have to push them. They respected him. He was the epitome of our life.

[Sammy Gravano]

I'm sitting here saying, yeah, even. Even where it's ending for him. It's, fuck the cops. I don't need to save my life. This is the life I chose.

[Unknown]

And he wants certain way. But he knows he's going to die and he's willing.

[Sammy Gravano]

He's not crying, no. He's not begging for his life.

[Unknown]

No, none of that. He taught me more about dying and goes in Austria than anybody has ever. But we're there and for a long time. And we're talking. Now. When the guys got out of the van and went to this place, this coffee shop, I told them, when you come back, you're walking. I could hear you coming in, you're walking on the pebbles. When you come to the back of the van, go like this, I'll know it's you. So he's sitting on the floor. I'm sitting on the driver's side, crooked, and I'm talking to him. And I got a.357 Magnum on my lap. I hear the pebble, somebody's coming in. I put the gun up by the passenger window. No knock on the back. I cock. I'm ready to go. He whispers to me, if it's a cop, shoot him in the fucking face before you kill me. Before you kill me.

[Sammy Gravano]

I want to.

[Unknown]

He wants a witness. I look at him before he goes, I'm blown away.

[Sammy Gravano]

That's crazy. That's as mafia as he gets, right there.

[Unknown]

And then. And then my guys come and says, here, get out of the van.

[Sammy Gravano]

It was your guy.

[Unknown]

Somebody else. Yeah. They don't listen, first of all, I blessed. I said, you know, I. I couldn't shot you, right?

[Sammy Gravano]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I told you to tap on the thing. You didn't tap on it. How the am I supposed to know? All right? See, a man forgot. All right, all right. So I. I go out, they want to talk to me. I says, go in and sit with him and don't with him, and I'll be right back. And I got out and I was talking to him. They said, sammy, they got the car. Nikki Russo, they get in trouble. He's saying that cops came. When we pulled out. We pulled out so hard we skid. We went on the grass, off the road a little bit back to the road they was down. I told him to crash it. As we crashed the gate, the truck went sideways. I could see the guards taking out guns. And we banged into the fucking little booth that they stay in. And they were ducking in and they didn't. Cops came, people. There was witnesses. They thought it was a fight. Nobody said nothing. They didn't even know the car. They never bothered with it. They didn't know who Mickey Russo was. He was just another guy. Says, yeah, I saw it. I don't know. So the truck, I think it was a fight. So everything was safe. The car is gone. The gun. They got my gun. Everything was going to happen. In my conversations, I had told him that I didn't have permission to kill him. I just had to grab him and bring them in. And I'm waiting on their decision, what they say. So I know now everything is good. And it's coming in. And Nikki Russo and pal Joey are coming in. Want my gun and the car. So I says, all right. I went back in the van. I got the guys get out. Everybody got out. I said, john, I just got word on the phone. They told me to kill you. I gotta kill you. Okay, Sammy, are you going to live up to your commitments? Absolutely. It'll be me or it'll be a friend of ours who's going to shoot you. You'll get hit. You've been in the Life. You've got 50 hits under your belt. You know what time it is? You know what it's like. I got a.357 Magnum that's going to be used. You're going to get one shot in the head. You're never going to. You don't know what time it is. It's like the whole world blew up. It's you gone. You know that? Yes. Okay, good. We're ready to go I get the guys back in the car, Nicky and Joey, everybody and I going to go to the dump. Is not far from this city dump. Dirt road in there, all weeds. There's high all over the place. So we pull in and we stop in the dump. It's closed. And we're getting out. And I hear him, sammy, Sammy. I turn around, pal. Joey's got his butt, his leg, and he's trying to drag him out. Out. I said, oh, get your hands off him. What do you want to do? You want to wiggle your way out? Yes. Leave him alone. Good. He wiggles his way out. He says, what do you want? I want you to follow me into the weeds. When we get to a spot, bend at the waist. You get hit in the back of the head, you'll never know. There's no rough stuff. There's no tortured is going.

[Sammy Gravano]

Yeah. Just a clean boom, boom, light switch and you're gone.

[Unknown]

Perfect. Sammy, if you were on my fucking side in this war, I would have won the war. Maybe so. But I'm not. I'm not on either side. I'm under orders. And I want to tell you I'm not happy about this. You understand the life better than anybody I've ever talked to. And I'm stuck with it. And we start walking, and he's following me into the woods. When we get to a spot, we stop. I said, I wanna come here. Louie Molino, you're going to pull the trigger. Here's the gun. Come here. He understands this. And people in gosa no understand. Have to be introduced to each other to recognize. So I said, louie, this is Johnny Keys. He's a captain in the Philadelphia mob. A man's man. Johnny, this is Louis Molino. He's a friend of ours, meaning a made man in the Gambino family. And he will pull the trigger. Thank you, Sammy. Bend at the waist and it'll be quick. Okay.

[Sammy Gravano]

Is that just so you fall easier? Go down.

[Unknown]

Bending at the waist, and he halfway down. And he looks up at me and he says, sammy, I'm glad it's you. Jesus.

[Sammy Gravano]

He is.

[Unknown]

I love you. Oh, God, Louie. God. Yeah. A shot in the head, he goes down. A couple more shots, it's over. We get in the van, we're all sick. Everybody likes this guy. My whole crew. How could you not like them? We leave. I tell the guys, cleaning his van, every inch of this thing is scrubbed down. And all you guys, everything you're wearing today, shoes, socks, underwear, bring them home, destroy them, throw them out, burn Them, whatever. I don't ever want to see them again. On your body or anywhere. Make sure that's done. I'm. I'm eliminating it like it never happened. And the next day, I get up and I go to meet my guy Taro. I pull up, he's standing outside, and he has a newspaper rolled up. I go over to him and he says, oh, my God, Sammy, you got it done? Yeah. He says, it's in the newspaper. Mobster from Philadelphia. Heavyweight mobster from Philadelphia found dead in Staten Island. Dumped. And this night, he said, take this paper and go to Paul's house. Go to every port. Are you going to come? I don't have to come. You go. Okay. I get in the car and I go there, knock on the door, ring the bell. The maid comes to the door. I get out. Paul sitting at his table, which is far away, not far, 20, 30ft, whatever, 40ft. He sees me come in. He jumps up. He's running towards me, grabs me, hugs me. Oh, my God, Sammy, it's in the paper. You got it done. Looks at me, what's wrong? I'm not happy about it. I feel dirty. Last night, I killed the epitome of our life. Everything we're supposed to be. This guy was. I think we killed the wrong fucking guy.

[Sammy Gravano]

Wow. You said that?

[Unknown]

He said, sammy, this was a commission hit, and I'm your boss, and I gave you the hit. It's as high as it gets. Anybody in your position right now would be on cloud nine. When I reported back to the commission, I had told them that you, Sammy, the bones, got the hit. Every boss, every underboss, and every guns lawyer of every family is going to know you did this. We did it. But you did it personally. I said, no disrespect. Men, I don't give a fuck what they think. I really. I feel dirty. And Paul, let me tell you, last night, I fell in love with this guy. He, like, went backwards a little bit. He said, what the fuck did you just say? I said, I fell in love with him. He is, to me, the epitome of our life. If I go to a doctor tomorrow and he says, you got cancer in two weeks to live, it wouldn't faze me in the fucking least. This guy taught me cosynoster like I never understood. He taught me how to die like a fucking man. Yeah, I love him. Yeah. He looked at me, he grabbed me, he hugged me again, kissed me on the face. He said, sammy, you did a great job. It's a commission hit. It's an order from me. You did it like a man's man. Don't change how you think. I love to hear what you just said. It's music to my ears. Don't change. He says, you want coffee? I said no pool. No disrespect. I got my crew waiting. That they all. They were blown away by it, too. They all fucking fall over them, I think. But we're going to go back. So I left. That's the Johnny Keys story. You know, it could be more detailed if we had time.

[Sammy Gravano]

That's an amazing.

[Unknown]

But it's an amazing story. It's going to be a movie now.

[Sammy Gravano]

It should be.

[Unknown]

I mean, it's going to be a moment.

[Sammy Gravano]

It's got to be.

[Unknown]

It is talking with people in Hollywood. I'm working on two projects in Hollywood. One is the Johnny Keys movie and one is a scripted show similar to the Sopranos. Story of my life. Mm. Guys that I've got in it working with me is Terry Winter, Nick Pileggi, J.J. sachs, Aaron Kaplan, Anton Buga. So black guy's a director. Serious dude. Everything that Denzel Washington has done, he's been the director. So I got a monster team and I'm working on all that now.

[Sammy Gravano]

Got a whole new as we.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Sammy Gravano]

Yes, sir.

[Unknown]

And so that's what I'm doing. I changed my life to become a born again Christian.

[Sammy Gravano]

You did?

[Unknown]

In September. Last September. This September will make a year. Congratulations. I changed my life around a little bit. One of the craziest things that. When I'm talking about the Johnny Keith story. Nick Palezi, when I first met him, he says, sammy, I listened to that Johnny Keith story on your podcast. I had company. They left. I had to listen to the whole thing again while I was alone. I listened to the whole thing. Two days later, I grabbed it. I had to listen to the whole thing again. This is a story that has to be told. Oh, this is a Mafia story that has to be told.

[Sammy Gravano]

It's got everything. It's got the love story aspect in it. It's got everything, for God's sake.

[Unknown]

But listen what he tells me. Listen what he tells me. He says, do you know what you and Johnny Keys was? We were gangsters, the two of us. No, he said you guys were samurais. The Japanese warriors. Yeah, warriors. He said they're more dangerous than you guys, but when they lose, they want to die with honor. That's what he wanted. You gave him every fucking thing he wanted under the conditions. And that's what a samurai would Do. Sometimes they'll bend down and you could chop their head off. Or they'll stab themselves in the stomach. The toys were two fucking samurais. That's what this story is.

[Sammy Gravano]

That's a great story.

[Unknown]

So that's where I'm at now.

[Sammy Gravano]

Can I ask you this? Have any of your victims ever showed up in your dreams? Any people ever come back? Has that guy ever come back and seen you?

[Unknown]

He comes back to me soon.

[Sammy Gravano]

Does he really?

[Unknown]

In different ways. When I'm telling the story, sometimes I choke up thinking about it. But I think about him often. When things are going a certain way, I. I think about him. I want, you know, whining about, this ain't going right. I don't have enough money, I don't have this, I don't have that. And then I look at myself and say, look at the position he is. He was in.

[Sammy Gravano]

Dude's telling you to cover the window so that the truckers don't see it. Don't worry about. Take the pill. Don't worry. Move me over here. I want to be comfortable when I go, like, don't let me die. That's also something. He could have took the heart attack route and he didn't want to. He wanted to go out by the sword. He did live by the sword, die by the sword.

[Unknown]

I think he was so smart to say that to me and he said it to other people now. And he. And he's right. He was a samurai and so was I, I guess.

[Sammy Gravano]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You know, I guess that won't be talked about with people because it's not, you know, one's a mafia thing and one's a samurai, but the similarity is so crazy. And both of us. And what Paul said, Toddo, the tear coming down his face, thinking he'll never see me again. And Toddle was not only my captain, I was an active captain with him. I got made in 1976. I was 31 years old the following year, Christmas time, and I was 32 and we were all meeting together, just made guys captain him, and he says, I want to have a drink with you guys. Merry Christmas, happy New Year. But I want to make a little bit of a speech. So we all sat down. His son was made the same day I was made. And there was old time as the king, Joey Russo, I mean, Nikki Russo and Pal Joey and some old timers. So he said, I never had an acting captain, but if I go to jail or something happens to me, I want to put an acting captain in now before we go Away for the holidays. Everybody's got a drink, ready to drink. And he says, as of today, my acting captain, he looked. He looked at me, Sammy, the ball. A year later, I'm already an acting captain. I'm so fucking green just being made. And he's making me this. So I thought, you know, maybe his son or these old timers have been when him for years and years and years, but he made me. I thought some of the guys would be a little pissed off, but whatever it is, I. I didn't call it. He calls it. So months later, I came into the club, a couple old timers were there and they said, sammy, come outside with us. I went out, I said, what's the problem? No, no problem. Just want to tell you that we know why Taro made you his acting captain. We understand it. It was a thousand percent right. You deserve it. That was a tremendous compliment for me. I thought they were going to be mad or pissed off. They wanted. They come to me all the time. And when I was in my own club, I would sit at the head of the table. My guys would all be around. Taro, after the Castellano hit, stepped down and I became a captain. And he wanted to meet with John Gotti, Franklin, Chico and step down as a captain. And they met with him and they approved it. He says, it's time for you guys to take over. They said, you want to be with us, the administration directly with us. He said, no, the guy who takes over my position to become the captain, I would like it to be Sammy. And I want to be placed under him. I made him. He was my acting competition. Now he's going to be the captain. I want him to take over my crew, my son and me. So when we sat and ate, I would tell his son, go pick up your father and bring him on the days we were going to meet, have dinner, whatever, and. And I would sit here. But when he came, I would get up and I would let him sit here and I would sit on the side. I wanted all my guys to understand the respect I had for him. Don't ever make a mistake and be disrespectful in any fucking way. I'm the captain, but he's my man, period. So even when I cooperated and he made me, he's supposed to hate me, but he never did.

[Sammy Gravano]

That's what I want to ask you. When you decided to cooperate, you have family, you have. How do you. How do you deal with that anxiety?

[Unknown]

Oh, it's. It was a nightmare.

[Sammy Gravano]

I had to be.

[Unknown]

It's been a nightmare till today.

[Sammy Gravano]

You still worry today?

[Unknown]

No, I don't worry about it, no. No worries about it at all. But there's people bare mounting me all the time. You rat, you this, you that. You know, I don't worry about it. I'll tell you why I don't worry. When I got into the life, on my first hit and I was in the life, I lost my fear of the life because I adjusted myself even before I became a main guy that I'm in this life, 99% I will be killed or go to prison for the rest of my life. Once I adjusted to that fact, I wasn't scared. I'm still not as a.

[Sammy Gravano]

As a former mafia guy. When the. When they come to you and tell you that if you cooperate, they'll help you, do you believe that? You know what I mean? Like, are you, like, I'm gonna give you all this info and then they're.

[Unknown]

Gonna be like, you know, gotti betrayed me and that's why I quit and walked away from the life. It's a long story. I'm not going to get into it. But I will say when I did cooperate, they helped me. They stuck by me. They never lied to me. They never bullshitted me or tried to bullshit me. Never. I lived up to my agreement. They lived up to their agreement till today they're retired. Some of them are dead. But they give me a call on my birthday, happy birthday.

[Sammy Gravano]

Do they?

[Unknown]

Yes, till today. And they're retired older men, older than I am. And so they've never lied to me. They've never betrayed me. They have done anything. And I don't hang with them and do anything. But like I said, on holidays, any holiday, I'll always get a message or how you feeling, buddy? Stuff like that. And they're not even in the FBI anymore. They're gone.

[Sammy Gravano]

Were you in, officially witness protection at first?

[Unknown]

No. Well, how does that work? I went in that for eight months. Okay? I wasn't going in. I had money, I had. I don't want.

[Sammy Gravano]

And what did they really do? Just move you somewhere and you become somebody else on paper? Is that really what they do?

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sammy Gravano]

And you said, no, no, I don't want it.

[Unknown]

But I got a call that from people who want Washington got in touch with them. They said, sammy, the people I was working with, that I trusted. So they gave me a call and they said, listen, the government wants you to join the program. You're going to make them look like, give them something so they can pound their chest. You got sentenced on 19 murders. You got five years, bro. We did the right thing. Which I said you did. And here's what I'll do. I'll tell them, yes, you could change my name. You could do whatever the fuck you want with me. I'll give you one year, pound your chest, do whatever the fuck you want. At the end of one year, I'm going to die with the name my father gave me. I'm going to change my name back to that. Our deal is over. I'll shake your hand, goodbye. I don't need your protection. I don't need nothing. And that's exactly what I did.

[Sammy Gravano]

Is that right?

[Unknown]

Yes. And I didn't even last a year because while I was away, I was in Colorado. I met some woman. Fake name, all that. She found out. She. She recognized that something was said in the television. She knew who it was. And they came to me and they said, sammy, we have. She knows. And now, according to the program, you got to start over. I said, I'm not starting over. I gave you, I promise you, a year. I'm in the program. Eight months, I'm not starting over. You have to ask the rules. I don't give a fuck about your rules. We met, we have an agreement. One year. And he says, well, then you got to sign out. Give me the papers and I'll sign out. Okay? They gave me the papers. I signed the papers, I signed out. I went back to Arizona and I changed my name from. Jimmy Moran was my bullshit name. My new name.

[Sammy Gravano]

Jimmy Moran was your name?

[Unknown]

Yes. And I went back to Salvatore Gabano. I'm currently right after that. Eight months. I quit the program. I don't need your help, your money, protection. I don't need anything.

[Sammy Gravano]

And did anyone ever come for you after that? Once, I'm sure. At least once, right?

[Unknown]

Once.

[Sammy Gravano]

But you were ready.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sammy Gravano]

Did you literally see it coming? Did you know it? Did you?

[Unknown]

I could smell it. Yeah. I'm a hate guy.

[Sammy Gravano]

Yeah. I was going to say you're the guy.

[Unknown]

I mean, I. I know when it's coming. Know what's going on. I never put myself for a long time. I'm older now. I don't even give a. No more. And I'm not. I don't think I'm vulnerable anymore, but I. I don't worry about those things. And that's another thing I think about when I worry about something is Johnny Keys. What's going to happen, is going to happen. If it happens. When it happens, it's a great way to end the story. It's going to end anyway. Whether it's a heart attack, a car crash, old age. I'm going anyway. So I made it this far. Maybe I could give a fuck less, but I'm not an idiot. When I go out and I sit, I sit with my back. So a certain way, I try to look at the door if somebody's coming in or something I like or don't like. If I got an appointment, I'm usually 15 minutes early.

[Sammy Gravano]

I told Kirsten, I was like, these guys are early.

[Unknown]

I just.

[Sammy Gravano]

I'm the same way still. I sit with my back. Yeah, I don't like not seeing the door.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I want to see it coming.

[Sammy Gravano]

Me too. All right, I have one more question for you, and then we're gonna wrap this up.

[Unknown]

Great.

[Sammy Gravano]

How many lives do you think, in your line of work, what you had to do. How many lives do you think you actually saved by doing what you needed to do?

[Unknown]

You understand what I'm asking? I know that. I knew you were gonna ask that. When you says, I knew, that question is coming. Hundreds. Hundreds. They talk about me when I'm in. I didn't kill 19 people. I'm involved in 19 murders.

[Sammy Gravano]

Yeah, I hear you.

[Unknown]

How many hits is John Gotti involved? 40.

[Sammy Gravano]

Is that right?

[Unknown]

Easy. He was the boss, giving orders like it was going out of style. You know, Part of my hits were on orders from him. So, you know, and everybody in that life. Hundreds, hundreds. Because guys walked away, you know, after I flipped. There were so many people who followed what I did when I was still. When I got sentenced to the five years that I said on the first case, because I cooperated and it hit the newspapers. Sammy got five years for 19 murders. I still had five years. You got to do about 52 months.

[Sammy Gravano]

Okay.

[Unknown]

When I was getting sentenced and hit the papers, I had about 48 months in.

[Sammy Gravano]

Oh, okay.

[Unknown]

So I had another four months to go.

[Sammy Gravano]

I see.

[Unknown]

So I went back to. The prison I was in was a witness unit prison.

[Sammy Gravano]

And was that in New York?

[Unknown]

No, it was. I was out of New York. It was in Arizona. But I went back and the unit manager called me and he says, congratulations, you got four more months to go. I said, yeah. He said, sammy, don't get into arguments or anything. I said, why would I get into arguments? He says, there's a lot of guys bullshitting about you getting a break like that. You. 19. They're all complaining because they got more time for less of A crime or whatever. I said them, that's jealousy, envy. Or them. I don't care. Don't worry about it. Thank you for telling me, but. So I was coming in. My friends can't. Hey, Sammy. Unbelievable. I was walking down the stairs and a whole bunch of other guys, black guys, Hispanic guys, people I don't know who said, what? So they said, you got five years. One. One guy told me, for 19 fucking bodies. I said, yeah. You know the fucked up part about this? They will stop. What if I would have killed 40 drug dealers, I would have did maybe two years and got awards for it. I should have fucking known better. Guys who say, go fuck yourself. It was time to break balls.

[Sammy Gravano]

That's great. I love it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Sammy Gravano]

I'm gonna ask you a question off the. Off the mic.

[Unknown]

I.

[Sammy Gravano]

Look, I'll ask you. We can edit this out if you want to. The neighbor that accidentally backed over, Gotti's kid on the bike.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Sammy Gravano]

What happened to that guy?

[Unknown]

Well, he was killed.

[Sammy Gravano]

Yeah, but what happened to that guy? Have you. I've heard this story. I've heard. Yeah, I've heard that. On his deathbed bed, they said to Gotti, what happened to that? And he said, I don't. I don't know what you're talking about. And they wanted to give the family closure. And the guy's just gone. I mean, we all know what happened to him, but he's gone. Yeah, he's Jimmy Hoffa.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah. So listen, when his son got hit by a car, I went to him, who was sickening as a kid, and.

[Sammy Gravano]

It was accidental, to the guy accidentally backed over. Yeah, yeah, Horrible.

[Unknown]

By accident. He's driving a mini bike at night. The guy's coming home. He didn't see him. He had some. He's dead. So I saw him, and I said, you ain't gonna do nothing. Right? But it was an accident. He said, that's what I wanted to do. He said, but my wife is fucking driving me crazy. You're a tough guy. He killed our son. She's driving me crazy. Disregard it. I mean, she's probably having a hard time with it. Disregard it, bro. And he said, no, Sammy, I got to do this. I said, bro, listen to me. I'm your brother. Don't do this. People love you. You do this, they're gonna hate you. The guy's a legitimate guy. He's an ax. It was an accident. He came to your house to apologize, crying like a baby. Your wife was hitting him with a bat. You had to chase him don't hurt him, bro. Take a piss. He went to Florida with his wife. And whoever he talked to got rid of him. I don't know. So I'm not going to talk about who did what. I know one thing, I would not take part in it. Yeah, because I thought, not so much that I cared about the guy, but I cared about him. You're making a tremendous fucking mistake.

[Sammy Gravano]

You're right. The world, Teflon Don, they loved him at the time.

[Unknown]

Right now, when this comes out, this is a horrible state. Now, I give you the real quick. I went to Angelo Egerio's wake. I was at the wake and my brother Loretti, the main guy, he says, sammy, call your sister. I said, for what? I'm at the funeral. What's going on? Something you saw and got hit by a car. My son. Yeah, I don't know what's going on, but she's crying, she's call up. I called her up, I said, freddie, my son got hit by a car. Same thing. Driving a mini bike at night. I had a mini bike on the farm. I brought it home, their kids took it out and he got. He had a little girl behind him and got hit by a car. He was in the hospital. Broken ankle or leg. It was busted up. He wasn't dead. He was busted up. And my sister gets on the phone. I said, franny, what happened? Gerard? Boom. And she just busts out crying. I said, oh, my God, is he dead? Sammy, please, Sam. And she hungs up on me. Oh, my God, I think my son is dead. I go back in the funeral part. I told John, I said, john, I gotta go.

[Sammy Gravano]

You're at the wake, getting this call.

[Unknown]

Yes, yes, yes. I had. And. And I said, I gotta go, bro. What happened? My son got hit by the car. He said, how is he? I don't know. I don't know. I told him what happened. My sister. I don't. She hung up on me. He's got to be dead. I got in the car and we went back and they were supposed to. Other calls on the way, she. He's in the Staten Island Hospital. I'm making calls to people in fucking New York Hospital already while this is going on. I get there, I go, sammy, I have an ambulance pick him up, pull him out of that hospital, bring them to New York Hospital. Major people. So when I get back, I go to the hospital and I see him, I sit down, hug him, kiss him, and I'm gonna go home. I got a driver, Louie, and I said, listen, I'm walking out of the hospital. I can't. What are you talking about? Take the car and go home. I'm going to go back. I got to stay in the room with him. I can't leave him. I just have to come back tomorrow with the car or whatever, but I got to stay here. So I went upstairs, I grabbed the nurse, I said, listen, I know visiting is over and I'm supposed to go. I'm not going. Please, let's not get into this. I can't go and I'm not going to. All right, all right, Sammy, we'll get you one of those chairs with the recliner bullshit. You could stay with that. We'll get you a blanket, you could sleep here. And that's what I did. And then the next day, matter of fact, John Gotti came to the hospital to visit him. So similar thing happened. My driver Louie said, sammy, the guy who hit your son is a neighbor too hit. He's petrified, see? What is he petrified about? Seeing John and he's petrified. I said, all right, come on, take me to his house. I went to his house, and I think it was his daughter or something that was on the back. I says, how is she? She's okay. Yeah, fuck insurance or whatever. If she's got hurt in any way. I don't think she was hurt bad, but if she's hurt in any way, get doctors, do what you got to do. I'll pay for it. Don't worry about money. Don't worry about none. And what the fuck are you worried about me for? It's my fault. I left the fucking minibank there. It's my son's fault because he's on it as a. But it's not his fault. He's a kid and he drove. You didn't do anything wrong. Matter of fact, he hit into you, but he's going to be fine. He's got a broken lump, he's busted up a little bit. But please don't worry about me. I'm your neighbor, I'm your friend.

[Sammy Gravano]

I'm sighing for the guy right now, like, oh, thank God.

[Unknown]

Yeah, he was worried. I mean, understandable, but I stopped that immediately. You don't have to worry about me.

[Sammy Gravano]

All right, we got to wrap you up here, so thank you for doing this. Advice you'd give to 16 year old Sammy the Bull and you're out of here, brother. What would you tell your. What would you tell young 16 year old Sammy?

[Unknown]

Go to school, get a fucking job, work fucking hard you may make some less money and things like that, but you don't have to look over your shoulder all your life. I've been in three fucking mafia wars. I got over 22 fucking years of my life in prison. You're going to shoot some of the people that you really like. They're going to maybe kill you. Don't do it. That's great. Don't do it.

[Sammy Gravano]

Thank you very much. Let me plug your YouTube and your Instagram again. Official Sammy the Bull. Follow them now. As always, Ryan Sickler on all your social media. We'll talk to you all next week.

[Unknown]

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