351: Chris Hansen - The Catch a Predator Legend

Summary

Podcast Summary: The HoneyDew with Ryan Sickler

Episode 351: Chris Hansen - The Catch a Predator Legend

Release Date: September 15, 2025
Guest: Chris Hansen
Host: Ryan Sickler

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Episode Overview

This episode of The HoneyDew dives into the career and personal philosophies of Chris Hansen, renowned investigative journalist and host of "To Catch a Predator." Host Ryan Sickler explores Hansen’s upbringing, the creation and impact of his predator investigations, confronting the darkest sides of humanity, lessons for parents, and how Hansen manages to balance the psychological toll of decades spent tracking society’s lowest criminals.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Chris Hansen’s Early Life and Entry into Journalism

• Background: Born in Chicago, grew up in Detroit suburbs (04:00).
• Formative Event: Proximity to the site of Jimmy Hoffa’s disappearance fueled his early fascination with crime reporting (04:43).
• Career Start: Entered college radio and newspaper, quickly advancing to commercial broadcasting (06:20).

The Evolution of Predator Investigations

• Genesis: Early investigative work covering child sex tourism in Cambodia deeply impacted him and became a springboard for his future focus (08:07).
• Collaboration: Learned about and worked with Perverted Justice, pioneering online stings against predators (10:43).
• Show Creation: The pilot had no police involvement—the first two stings let men freely leave, prompting adjustments to guarantee arrests (11:00, 13:36).
• Process Shift: After initial unsatisfying episodes, the necessity of law enforcement partnership became clear, leading to more effective operations and prosecutions (15:28).

“We had to collaborate with law enforcement because that was the only socially responsible way to proceed.” – Chris Hansen (15:10)

The Alarming and Unending Prevalence of Predators

• Technological Shift: Originally, predators were found on AOL and Yahoo chat rooms; now, countless platforms create even more opportunities for exploitation (18:00).
• Job Security Lament: Despite widespread awareness, predators are undeterred—Hansen notes that even when suspects believe they’re walking into a sting, many show up anyway (17:08).
• Examples of Disturbing Cases: Recent stings attracted over 40 predators across just six days in Florida; offenders range from the ordinary to highly respected community members like rabbis, doctors, teachers (17:51, 14:23).

Advice to Parents & Internet Safety

• Roblox, Social Apps, and Danger: Hansen is producing a documentary on predatory behavior within Roblox, urging parental vigilance on all apps (19:59).
• Sexual Extortion: Warns of rising sextortion scams—scammers posing as peers then threatening to distribute compromising images for money, sometimes driving victims to suicide (38:54).
• Resource Recommendations:
  • National Center for Missing and Exploited Children – for reporting, education, and image takedowns (38:03).
  • State sex offender registries, and tools like TruthFinder for background checks (37:01).

“If you don’t know them in real life, you don’t know them in virtual life online.” – Chris Hansen (48:03)

• Practical Parenting Tips:
  • Talk openly with kids about dangers and potential scams.
  • Establish an environment where mistakes can be reported without shame or fear (40:37).
  • Be involved—know the adults at your child’s friends’ houses; encourage transparency (65:00).

Dark Side of the Human Condition: Psychology & Recidivism

• Types of Offenders: Hansen distinguishes between irredeemable, repeat offenders, “curious” individuals enabled by the internet, and socially inept young men (35:45).
• Female Predators: None have been caught in his stings; notes increase in female teacher-male student offenses, but male offenders overwhelmingly dominate (21:16).
• Pornography & Offending: Draws a clear line between consuming child porn and acting out abuse: “Without exception, if a guy's been busted for sexually exploiting a child, he's also been involved in child pornography.” (26:23)
• Prison Justice: Child predators face extreme violence from inmates, partly due to high rates of past victimization among prisoners (45:00).

Personal Experiences & Memorable Moments

• Unexpected Encounters: Once confronted a man he knew from his local commuter train—“Choo Choo Charlie”—in a sting (26:46).
• Comedic Relief: Recalls botching early stings by using the wrong transcripts—dark subject matter, but moments of inadvertent hilarity (12:39).
• Bathroom Break Story: The logistics of stings, including the awkwardness and risk when suspects ask for bathroom breaks (46:12).

Laws, Consequences, and Justice

• Sentencing Variations: Extreme differences exist state-to-state—Louisiana technically has castration on the books; Idaho can sentence death (28:28).
• Death Penalty as Leverage: Supports its use not necessarily for execution but as a bargaining chip during plea deals (30:26).
• Recidivism’s Reality: Many predators reoffend; robust monitoring and registry systems crucial, but not infallible (34:42).

Balancing Burnout: Physical and Mental Health

• Coping Mechanisms: Emphasizes physical activity, family, and a fulfilling life outside work to compartmentalize trauma (51:31, 56:24).
• Stoicism & Optimism: Finds grounding in stoic philosophy and the belief in “perpetual optimism as a force multiplier” (66:16).

“If you're really going to be happy, you got to figure out how to do it without [chemicals].” – Chris Hansen (57:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the show’s inception:

  “I thought we'd do it two, three times and nobody's going to show up…Now we get people who in the chat will say, this sounds like a Chris Hansen…operation. They show up anyway.” – Chris Hansen (16:58–17:46)

• On predators’ motivations:

  “It's a hundred way tie for first. I mean, we've seen guys talk about involving animals…” – Chris Hansen (17:51)

• On protecting children online:

  “Children don't like to be tricked. So that gets their attention right there. Be aware of grown ups who are trying to trick children.” – Chris Hansen (48:12)

• On the persistence of the crime:

  “The proliferation of child pornography now is astounding...there is without question a link between viewing child porn and offending.” – Chris Hansen (25:05–26:23)

• On his personal coping strategies:

  “You have to learn how to compartmentalize…physical fitness leads to mental fitness…” – Chris Hansen (51:37)

  “I'm doing the job that I was meant to do. Not necessarily catching predators, but being an investigative reporter. That's what I was made to do.” (52:37)

• Advice to his younger self:

  “Perpetual optimism is a force multiplier.” (66:34)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Chris Hansen’s Upbringing and Early Interest in Crime – 03:59–06:26
• Origin of Predator Investigations & Early Stings – 08:07–13:36
• Transition to Police Partnerships & Explosive Popularity – 13:40–15:35
• Weapon Encounters and Safety Risks – 15:35–16:52
• Internet’s Role and Expansion of Predatory Behavior – 17:06–19:29
• Roblox and Parental Precautions – 19:29–21:07
• Psychology of Offenders, Male vs. Female – 21:16–24:36
• Pornography, Foster Care, and Offending Trends – 25:05–26:23
• Notorious Busts & Sentencing Extremes – 26:46–28:44
• Death Penalty and Legal Ramifications – 29:08–31:19
• Sex Offender Registries & Research Tools – 36:36–38:05
• Rise & Dangers of Sextortion – 38:53–41:53
• In-Prison Justice and Vigilantism – 44:16–46:02
• Awkward “Bathroom Break” Case – 46:12–47:41
• Parental Advice for Internet Safety – 47:59–51:16
• Mental Health & Exercise as Coping – 56:20–57:23
• Recent Shocking Cases, Rehabilitation Debate – 58:10–59:55
• Epstein & Elite Sexual Abuse Networks – 60:04–64:15
• Warning Signs for Parents – 64:44–65:56
• Philosophy, Stoicism, Final Advice – 66:16–68:13

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Final Thoughts & Takeaways

Chris Hansen remains a forceful, insightful presence in crime journalism, unflinchingly confronting the ongoing crisis of online and real-world predation. His unique combination of investigative grit, empathy for victims, and his commitment to awareness and prevention stand out. Parents, policymakers, and the public alike benefit from his advice: stay vigilant, communicate openly with children, and balance the darkness with optimism and healthy living.

“Perpetual optimism is a force multiplier.” – Chris Hansen (66:34)

For more, follow Chris Hansen’s latest work on TrueBlue (trueblue.com) and his podcasts: Predators I’ve Caught and soon Have a Seat with Chris Hansen.

Transcript

[A]

San Diego. I'll be at the Grand Comedy Club Friday, October 3rd. Get your tickets now on my website at ryancickler.com the Honeydew with Ryan Sickler. Welcome back to the Honeydew, y'.

[B]

All.

[A]

We're over here doing it in the Night Pants studios. I am Ryan Sickler. Ryan Sickler.com Ryan Sickler on all your social media. And I'm starting this episode like we start them all with gratitude by saying thank you. Thank you for supporting this show. Thank you for supporting anything that I do out there. I love you guys. I love my life because of you guys. And I love this show. And if you got to have more, then I'm telling you, you have to have the Patreon. It's called the Honeydew with you all. It is this show with you all. And it is the wildest show on the Internet. It is hundreds of episodes. It's five bucks a month. It's been that way since we started and we're not bumping it up. And if you or someone you know has a story that has to be heard, please submit it to honeydew podcastmail.com we would love to do an episode with you. All right, that's the biz. You guys know what we do here? We highlight the lowlights and always say that these are the stories behind the storytellers. And I am very excited to have this guest here. First time on the Honeydew. Ladies and gentlemen, Chris Hansen. Welcome to the Honeydew, Chris.

[B]

Thank you, Ryan. It's great to be here.

[A]

So stoked to have have you here to be here. Before we get into your story, please, right there. Promote everything and anything you'd like.

[B]

True blue streaming, crime network crime and all the new predator investigations, which are called Takedown with Chris Hansen. Now 150 new episodes and a new episode every Thursday. The podcast is Predators I've Caught with Chris Hansen. And that's available anywhere you get your podcast. And soon, in September, we're going to launch have a Seat with Chris Hansen, which is crime related, but more of an interview setting predators I've caught. We go back and we look look at the past cases and we track the guys down. And I tell my listeners, viewers, oh, yeah, it's very interesting.

[A]

And some of them actually agree to sit with you.

[B]

Some do. Many tell me to go f off. I tell you, I tell you. It's a funny story. About a year ago, my wife and I are on vacation skiing in Colorado, and I'm fussing around getting the latest Podcast episode going. And I call the guy and leave a message and calls back, says, I'm not talking to you, you know, F off Chris Hansen, you ruined my life. He said, all right, well, you know, I just was trying and I record these obviously. So I have them. Five minutes later he calls back and gives me his whole story. Now I'm leaning over the bed in this condo in Beaver Creek, Colorado, writing, you know, listening, interviewing. My wife is videotaping it and my sister in law is watching and just pure fascination to see this whole thing go down. But that's how it is behind the scenes sometimes, you know that.

[A]

And this guy just starts the guy unloading.

[B]

Every once in a while during these stings, you can see a switch go off. And the guy goes from fu. I was just here to visit the child. I was here as a Good Samaritan or whatever lie he wants to tell to, well, here's what's going on in my mind. And that's the goal, is to get these guys to talk so we can understand what brought them here. So we can better understand how to protect ourselves against predators. Whether it's a sexual predator seeking to exploit children or a financial predator, any kind of criminal. That's my mantra, is get inside their head so you can understand it and you can share that with viewers and listeners and they can protect themselves.

[A]

I have a million questions, so let's go to the beginning. Where are you from originally? And tell me about your, you know, your life growing up.

[B]

Born In Chicago in 1968, my dad got transferred. He was with the Eaton Company to Detroit. And so we moved to the suburbs of Detroit in a great, great upbringing. I mean, you know, we're never wealthy, but we never wanted for anything. You know, I went to school with people whose last names were on the New York Stock Exchange, but we were sort of on the other side, so I could see it. I knew I wanted to get there, but it took a minute for me to figure out what I wanted to do. But I was very lucky in this respect because I figured it out early. I grew up about a mile and a half from where Jimmy Hoffa, 50th anniversary of his going.

[A]

Is it 50 years this year?

[B]

Yeah. So I'm 14, 15 at the time. And this happens a mile and a half from our home. And I'm fascinated by it. It's on the local news, it's on the network news. There's cops and FBI agents all over the Red Fox restaurant, which is right up the street. And I used to Ride my bike up there and take it all in. And so a few years later when I went off to college, I just signed up for the campus radio station. And that began the path that I continue today.

[A]

Now, what did your dad and mom do for a living?

[B]

My dad was in the auto industry, in sales. Sold Eaton Parts to GM and Ford. My mom was a homemaker until she was probably well into her 50s. Got a job showing homes in what was once 40 acres of land where we roamed with BB guns. And it became a luxury development. And she ended up starting with that. She became director of sales for a luxury home builder. So this woman who, you know, raised three kids and was an artist and had, you know, passion projects of her own, became a very successful executive in high end residential real estate.

[A]

So no real, you know, law enforcement, anybody in the.

[B]

No journalism, no cops, no federal agents, just, you know.

[A]

So that Jimmy Hoffa thing, that really got started. Tipping point for you, huh? And you're just driving, riding your bike up there, excuse me. And just hanging out, watching what's going on and really intrigued side streets till.

[B]

You get over to Telegraph. And it was busy. And get right up to 15 mile road maple.

[A]

So then you do your college radio station and are you just doing music or is it talk or what are you doing in college news?

[B]

So it was the Michigan State Radio Network. Okay, Right. So we fed and you could only listen to it if your radio is plugged into the dorms or it's current cable or whatever they called it, but you could listen to it. So the kids would all gather around all your buddies and listen to you do your newscast. And we used to produce the student government meeting, the ASMSU school report. We up till midnight and the, you know, young politicians who represent different aspects of college life are arguing, going on and on and on. But it was great because it created an opportunity to work for the school newspaper and then to get into commercial radio. And then the commercial radio station, which was wjim, was a very interesting setup. They had TV and radio and the Gross family, Harold Gross was the owner. And it was designed so if TV never got off the ground, they could make it into a Holiday Inn. They actually had a built in pool there. It the radio, tv. Is that right?

[A]

If it didn't make it for Holiday Inn.

[B]

That was the story. But the greatest thing was, you know, there I am, you know, from, I guess junior, sophomore, junior year, junior year and beyond. You know, we had keys to get in the radio station. There was no security badges and you had a key. And so if you'd come from Mac's bar late at night and you had some dates who wanted to go swimming, you could get into the radio station and go swim in the WJM pool. It was a great setup, you know. Yeah. For a young guy.

[A]

So what point do you shift into going after these predators? What happens in your life? What path do you. What stumbles your way? What comes across where you're like, no. Or this is where.

[B]

This is where we're going to go. Well, it's always been just. I don't want to say just. It's always been a part of my portfolio. You know, I continue to do a lot of other reporting for True Blue and for Fox and Fox Nation and things like that. But in about 2004, I was at Dateline and we had done a lot of hidden camera reporting, a lot of investigative reporting. We had gone to Cambodia with an ngo and we exposed American tourists and Western European tourists going over to Cambodia to exploit children. And we infiltrated a brothel and we posed as sex tourists. My producer and my team did. And we saw children as long as young as 5 and 6 years old being sold for sex. And they would talk about the different sex terms like boom, boom or yum yum, and you can imagine. And so we produced an hour for Dateline, you know, where these girls, 37 of them, were freed from being sexually. And it was a profound story and a turning point in my life because, you know, we were involved. I mean, it was the, you know, the NGO who really got it going. But we were allowed to embed and we were involved in this process of giving some of these girls a better life, but also exposing the Americans going over there who we later confronted on American soil. This was the story that kept on giving. So the story airs one night and two cops in Vancouver, Canada, British Columbia, see it and they recognize the background of the brothel. They wait. That matches the videotape found in this guy we arrested for beating up a sex worker. Turns out he had been at the same brothel and he gets charged with a seven year felony for being a sex tourist. So we keep going and going. Four years later, we went back to camp. We showed the girls in a better life. It was very emotional and it stuck with me. So when I Learned in about 2004 about an online watchdog group called Perverted justice, which would go undercover, pose as kids, have a chat, and if the guy said, I'm coming over, I'm going to have sex with you, they would merely Post his identity on their website. And sometimes the police would make a case. And as they got better at doing it and more prolific, and they would work with police. I thought if we could get them to do it and we could wire a house with hidden cameras and microphones, it could be very compelling. So I pitched the story at Dateline, not as its own entity, its own series, just as a story for Datelock.

[A]

An episode.

[B]

An episode. And they signed off on it. And producer and I went out and found a house in Bethpage, Long Island. And we didn't have the police involved because we didn't know what was going to happen. So Perverted justice is up there working.

[A]

Oh. So on this first one, the first two, we did not actually just leave.

[B]

They could leave.

[A]

Wow. So I'm just doing an episode.

[B]

We're just doing an episode. Right. So I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know whether I'm going to be in a fistfight with one of these guys. We had security there. Ron Knight, my security guy with NBC, was there at the time. And I didn't know if anybody was going to show up. And I'm driving out there thinking, what if I've just blown tens of thousands of dollars of the network's money and nobody shows up? And right about then, my producer calls and says, where the hell are you? We got two guys scheduled to show up in 45 minutes. By the end of the two and a half day investigative shoot, 17 men surfaced, including a New York City firefighter. But he was the only one who was prosecuted because he was identified. Some of them we knew, some of them we didn't. And it was rather unsatisfying to see these guys just, you know, walk off and win. But imagine the first guy through the door, and I've got the transcripts, and.

[A]

I've done a lot of heavy.

[B]

I've done a lot of spontaneous interviews, Right. But this guy's coming. I don't know who this guy is. Ronnie's behind me. He's got.

[A]

I was gonna ask you no one. If you're doing a sting, they're not frisking them before they come in. They could have weapons, they could have anything.

[B]

Ultimately, we got to that point. But, you know, the first couple, I mean, we took the knives out of the K. And Ronnie, you know, as a licensed security guy and as a former NYPD lieutenant, he. I wasn't worried about my safety, but, you know, it was a little hairy on that first one, and I couldn't Believe it. You know, it was. They were coming so quickly.

[A]

That's the terrifying.

[B]

So I get to the third guy and I walk out with the wrong transcript. I said, it says here you wanted to do this, that and the other thing with a girl named Beth. No, I'm sorry, it's not me. Hang on, I go back, get another one. The second transcripts are wrong. Finally, on the third try, I said, you know, yeah, that's me. Okay, well, I written a book several years ago on the whole Predator series. And NBC did a special to go along with the book. And they actually took the video clips of those three confrontations and put them together. And it's. You talk about a dark subject being funny. It was funny.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

Because I'm like, yeah, like help me out here. I need the transcripts.

[A]

You're like, oh, that one's not you.

[B]

The reaction of the the Predator was. Was priceless. It was like, yeah, that's me. Okay, good. Well, you know, and you start going down the line of all this stuff you said.

[A]

And then like you said, they're just.

[B]

Coming non stop, they're coming non stop. So we get back.

[A]

So then you realize you actually have something. We do. So now how do you. What's the legality of getting the police involved so these guys don't just get to leave because, you know, you've got red handed.

[B]

Well, that was a big question. So we're having these meetings. How do we promote this, what do we call it? We know we've got really compelling television. And it was going on and on and on. And I was getting frustrated. There wasn't on camera on the air and finally air date was set and we put it together and you know, we almost bent over backwards to make it more traditional news as opposed to just these gotcha moments. And we had experts and people weighing in on safety and it was good, but it was television nobody had seen before when it aired that night on Dateline. And so pretty quickly I pitched a second one and we did this investigation outside of Washington, D.C. in a suburb called Herndon, Virginia. And again, no police. But we had even more guys show up and more prominent people. We had a rabbi who showed up, a young boy clergyman, and we had a military intelligence officer. We had a doctor, we had a teacher. I mean, it was crazy. And the Fairfax, Virginia police in several cases and the FBI in one case with the rabbi prosecuted, they investigated and prosecuted. So we did see successful prosecutions. But it became very clear from that point onward that we had to Collaborate with law enforcement because that was the only socially responsible way to proceed. And today when we do the takedown investigations for True Blue, we even have law enforcement do the chats. So there's no chain of custody. The decoy who gets online is a sworn law enforcement officer.

[A]

Makes sense.

[B]

And that, that takes out a lot of the ambiguity or anything that could come up as a potential criminal defense.

[A]

Have you had people show up with weapons or have you had. We have stuff that we don't on TV show. Are you worried for your life?

[B]

Well, worried for my life, not so much. I mean, we've made this as safe as it can possibly be. And obviously the edginess of it is part of the attraction to it. Right. I mean, if it was easy, everybody could do it. But we've established such a great rapport with law enforcement around the country, around the world really, because we're looking at some international things now that, you know, we get access where other people don't. So in Alabama, for instance, you know, one of many states, Florida, Alabama, Louisiana, where we've worked, you know, the carry concealed weapons laws are, you know, more lenient there. So you expect to see it. So, you know, have I been surprised a couple times? Yes. Have I done a complete interview with a gun on the table in a leather pouch not knowing it? Yes. But was he going to use it on me? No. That's what he carries. Just like a carpenter carries a power tool. You know, what would happen if we weren't there and there was an underage boy or girl and it didn't go his way or he wanted to harm the child? That gives me pause and shudder thinking what might happen.

[A]

Well, just knowing like you have. The disturbing thing is you have job security. This shit's not going anywhere.

[B]

So you right, I tell you, you know, when we first started doing it, I thought we'd do it two, three times and nobody's going to show up. I figured there would be. Oh really?

[A]

You thought no one would show too, huh?

[B]

I bet at some point who's going to show up and take that chance? Now we get people who in the chat will say, this sounds like a Chris Hansen to catch a pet worker operation. This sounds like takedown on True Blue. Tell Sheriff Grady Judd or Sheriff so and so to. To I said hello, good luck to you. I mean, we get that, but we also get people who say that. And the decoy says, who's that? No, I'm not a cop. I'm too young to be a cop. And they show up Anyway, which tells me about the drive some of these predators have to, you know, exploit children.

[A]

Tell me, what's the most disturbing thing that you've dealt with?

[B]

Well, it's a hundred way tie for first. I mean, we've seen guys talk about involving animals. We've seen, I mean, in this recent investigation, the one I just finished a week ago, we had 41 guys show up in six days in Marion County, Florida.

[A]

With the popularity and everything, even with you saying them, saying this sounds like a Chris Hansen thing, these men are still showing up in numbers like that.

[B]

Yes. And.

[A]

And do you know now that you're. It's never gonna end.

[B]

I don't think it's. I don't think it's gonna end.

[A]

There's not, there's not gonna be a time you put a house where no one chose.

[B]

I would love to do a cooking show in Italy, like Stanley Tucci. I mean, I think that'd be so great. You need it.

[A]

You know, I mean, it'd be, it'd be great, right?

[B]

How much fun would that be? I love food. I love, you know, travel. I, I don't see that in my near term future though. I mean, you know, we will continue doing these shows as long as the crime is occurring. And when we started, I mean, think about this for a minute. When we started, we merely had decoys in chat rooms on AOL and Yahoo. Right? That was it. And that antiquated thing called MySpace, you may or may not recall that that was it. That's all there was in those days. And we would get routinely on the high end, 51 guys in the low end, 18, you know, maybe a dozen. The low end. At the low end now there are so many more platforms upon which adults can approach children to try to exploit them. I can't even keep up.

[A]

That's what I want to ask you because you quickly mentioned before we record out there, we're talking about Roblox and my daughter's on that, her friends are.

[B]

On that, everybody's on it.

[A]

They've already told me that there are men in these chats asking them to go on dates and all these things. And I'm like, what? My daughter doesn't have it, but her friends do. And she's telling me this is going on. And I'm like. And then another one said something about meeting at a park and they use emojis to tell them which kind of drugs or whatever. You're obviously familiar with all this shit. What, what do we. Parents, what do we got to look out for.

[B]

We have a documentary in production right now. I've already started shooting on the issue on Roblox.

[A]

Just that, just that alone. Oh wow.

[B]

So we were in Marion County, Florida again where we did this sting. And it just so happens to be that's where we started the shooting for the Roblox documentary. Because they had arrested a 17, almost 18 year old man for exploiting children on Roblox, getting them to take pictures, sexually suggested pictures. Now he's grooming these kids. He thought there's nothing wrong with that. He's not, well, not right criminal. But in the course of doing that we also found that there was a victim, a 10 year old girl of somebody else on Roblox who was in the uk, so they were able to prosecute that. All of this in central Florida. You got a guy who's prosecuted in the UK has been doing this, who happens to have a victim there. You got a guy who is the predator doing it from there with victims all over the place. But if it's happening there, it's happening everywhere. Right, because they don't care whether the kids in Marion County, Florida or whether they're in Phoenix, Arizona.

[A]

Tell me about this criminal mind because these sick bastards. And by the way, how many women have you ever come across?

[B]

None in our stings. None. When you, when you talk about female predators, the shrinks, the experts tell you that we're more likely to see the teacher student scenario.

[A]

I see.

[B]

Because the female predator doesn't like the anonymity. They like to know who their prey is. And I'll tell you this though, and I can't give you a definitive reason for it, but I've never in my 42, 43 years of being a reporter seen more cases of female teachers being accused of sexually exploiting young male students. I've never seen anything like that. Every week there's a case situated in.

[A]

1991 and if it was going on then you didn't know about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And all of a sudden, I say all of a sudden it's 20, some 30, 40 years. But I mean it is crazy now how often we see it. And that's the other thing too is if you know what we're seeing makes it to the media, how much of it isn't making it to the teachers are getting away with.

[B]

Media is, is, is pretty good at getting the word out. I mean, you know, between social media platforms and television and print and all the websites are out there reporting this. It gets out there, but it's mind Boggling, Ryan, how many cases like this there are. And, you know, we're. At some point we have to do something on it. And I'm not sure exactly what's behind it, and I'm not. It's a combination of things, right? There's never any.

[A]

It's like it's all men.

[B]

It's not a plane crash. Right. It's like a plane crash. Right. There's no single point failure. It's a combination of things. Some. Some people are just wired that way. Some people have a predisposition towards being attracted towards younger people, and they wouldn't normally act on it except for the Internet, the addictive nature, the anonymity. These younger predators will say things online they wouldn't say face to face and suddenly becomes acceptable. And they get off on it and they blur the line between fantasy and reality. And they're knocking at our door. In the female teacher case, is it a power play? Maybe. Are they acting out a very pleasant time in their life that they've not been able to achieve since they were younger? It's probably a combination, but we're seeing a lot of it. We had a case in Tennessee. Female teacher was accused of sexually assaulting at least one boy. Her husband was a sheriff's deputy. What? Yeah. And allegedly she became pregnant from this relationship with the teenage boy. Now you talk about a mess.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

Legally, psychologically, it tore apart this community. Sheriff's deputy's wife.

[A]

But the fact that these. The scary thing is that the. The predators. The mindset to. There's a brand new app out they. I'm still trying to figure out how to use the app. These guys are trying to go behind the scenes and figure out how to use it to exploit. And it's like that mindset is. That's. That criminal element of that is crazy to me. And how many.

[B]

Crazy to me.

[A]

There's new apps that we don't even know about right now.

[B]

There's a new app and they're already.

[A]

On it and knowing how to manipulate.

[B]

Kids know how to get on these apps. You know, Roblox, which I hope cooperates in this documentary because I think, you know, they're. They're trying to make it a safer place. But they had an announcement a few weeks ago that they were going to have age verification and that you had to be at least 13 to be on the platform. Well, 13. 13 to 15 is the target area for better.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

Huh? And we've seen them go as young as 10 in our investigations. It's gone, you know, even younger. And the proliferation of child pornography now and is astounding. And what we see in the porn world mimics what we see in the criminal real life world. For instance, we see guys looking to exploit foster parents who are in difficult financial situations. And they know where to look for this. And how do they know and how do they know this is occurring? Because they watch the fantasy porn and they see the daddy daughter stuff or the stepmother daughter stuff and they want to act as out in real life. So if these guys see enough of this porn aberrant now, I'm not talking about, you know, Playboy magazine porn, I'm talking about, you know, hardcore stuff they're going to ultimately act out on it. And there is without question a link between viewing child porn and offending. And I know psychiatrists who works the federal government who go into the prisons and they talk to these guys and they have nothing to lose by being honest. And without exception, if a guy's been busted for sexually exploiting a child, he's also been involved in child pornography.

[A]

Wow. Without exception.

[B]

Without exception.

[A]

Jesus. Okay, so the show obviously is widespread. I mean, it takes off. You know, we had Kim Whitley in here before she heard your name. She's like Chris Hansen from To Catch a Predator. Like everybody knows you, right? Have you ever come across busting or some way knowing the person that you were going after?

[B]

We were in Fairfield, Connecticut and I lived not far away at the time in Stanford, Connecticut. And we're doing this thing had been pretty successful. You had some crazy guys walk in. The guy with the pizza, Jeff Sokol, a guy who was with a cable company who had a gun and duct tape and stuff in his car. And a guy shows up to meet, you know, a 13 year old boy. And I walk out and he looks familiar and he says, chris, no, Chris, no, it's not what it looks like. And he runs and they arrest him and take him away. I started to think, who is this and why do I know them?

[A]

He certainly knew you.

[B]

I call a buddy, we used to ride the train together. All these guys, they had a club car. You have a, you know, a beverage on your way home from work in the city. And this guy, Charles Lawrence was on the club car train frequently. And he wasn't a good friend. He was kind of on the periphery, but he was known around town. And suddenly he became Choo Choo Charlie because that was his nickname for that. But he did. He did two years in prison. He did two years, damn.

[A]

But also two Years. Doesn't sound like a lot for what these guys.

[B]

Doesn't. It doesn't. And what we see, Ryan, is, is a big range across the country. Florida cracks down. The sentences can be up to 10 years. There's. And it depends whether or not they've got a past criminal history, whether they've been caught for this, you know, before. Louisiana has castration. In extreme cases. In extreme cases, yeah.

[A]

That's still in the books.

[B]

That's. It's. I don't know if it went away or. It's still in the book.

[A]

When was the last time they've done that to someone?

[B]

I talked to a judge. No, in recent 2000s. It's getting 2000s. It's got to be an extreme case, but it's on the books. They can use it as a sentence.

[A]

What did they, what did this guy do that they.

[B]

This judge had three castration sentences.

[A]

Three. Oh, that's the guy you don't want to get in front of right here.

[B]

Chris Hansen, to bring me another one. Now, I don't know the specifics of each of those cases, but in, in. But it's got to be, for instance, in Idaho. Yeah, it's got to be extreme. In Idaho, they have the death penalty for extreme cases.

[A]

They do.

[B]

And I'm starting to come around to think that that's appropriate.

[A]

I wanted to ask.

[B]

And here's why in. You know, Grady Judd, who's the sheriff in Polk County, Florida. We work with that sheriff's department all the time. I've known him since I was a reporter in Tampa when he was a lieutenant. Grady Judd, he's a big thinker. You know, you see his news conferences. They're very colorful. He, you know, somebody asked him once why they had to shoot a guy 35 times. He said, because we ran out of bullets. I'm paraphrasing. But, you know, he's a lawman's lawman, but he also is a big thinker. He thinks about policy and safety of his community, and I have enormous respect for him intellectually. And, you know, he has been an advocate in some cases of the death penalty, and I've come around to agree with him. And even if the death penalty is not imposed, it gives prosecutors a tool in negotiations because a lot of these cases end up in plea discussions. Right. The guy knows he's cooked. He's done it once. They catch him again, and you can get a very stiff sentence and lock somebody up for a long time without even going to trial in exchange for taking the death penalty off the table.

[A]

Oh, is that right?

[B]

Oh, yeah. And it happens all the time. It happened with the, the Idaho murders. You know, the guy plead pleaded guilty on the head to the tragic killing of those four innocent.

[A]

Watch that.

[B]

Beautiful kids. And they don't have to go through a trial now. He'll never get out. And maybe you could argue he should get the death penalty, that that is the true measure of justice in that case for such a horrific crime. And I would not debate anybody who, you know, lost a loved one in that horrific, senseless, needless slaughter of innocent college kids. If you're the parent there, I might want this guy dead, too. Or do you want him to suffer in prison for the rest of his natural life? And I'll make this prediction right now. They're waiting for him. Whatever prison he goes into, however bad these guys are, they're waiting for him.

[A]

This episode is sponsored by Better Help. We've all done it before. We've turned to the group chat, your hairdresser or a random stranger in the bathroom for life advice, as fun as they are to talk with about everyday topics. When you're looking for help about relationships, anxiety, depression or other clinical issues, they may not have all the right answers. So instead, get guidance from a licensed therapist online with better help. BetterHelp has been helping people find therapist match for over 10 years, with a 4.9 rating out of 1.7 million client session reviews. This is a show. We talk about therapy a lot with the guests myself. Therapy is something that I think everyone should at least try and if you're on the fence, give Better Help a try. I'm telling you. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. It's convenient, too. You can join a session with a therapist at the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life. Life plus Switch therapists at any Time as the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of Expertise. Find the one with BetterHelp, our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.comHoneydew that's better. H-E-L-P.comHoneydew I want to talk to you about your home security for a minute. I used to think home security was just an alarm that goes off after a break in, scaring their intruder off and getting a neighbor's attention if you're lucky. But that's a reactive approach by the time an intruder is in your home, it's too late. Your feeling of safety is shattered. That's why real security should stop a crime before it even starts. That's why I trust Simply Safe. Their system is designed to be proactive, not reactive. Being proactive is exactly why I love Simply Safe. Aside from the easy setup, I have a piece knowing it's there to stop a break in before one happens. Simply Safe uses smart AI powered cameras to identify threats lurking outside your home and immediately alert Simply Safes professional monitoring agents. These agents intervene in real time before the break in even begins by accessing two way audio to confront the person, triggering sirens and spotlights to scare them off and requesting rapid police dispatch when needed. All helping to stop the intruder while they're still outside. That is real security. Join the more than 4 million Americans who trust Simply Safe with their home security every day, including me. And with a 60 day money back guarantee and no long term contracts. Simply save earned your business by keeping you safe and satisfied every day. Visit SimpliSafe.comHoneydew to claim 50% off a new system. That's SimpliSafe.comHoneyDew there's no safe like simply safe. Now let's get back to the dude. That's another thing I wanted to ask you. I have two questions about that. I know with the chomos and all this. And so a guy gets put away and like you say, he comes out two years later. What's the percentage they are repeat offenders. Is it almost 100% or is that scare the shit out of them and you actually do see a change?

[B]

I don't know the percentage I should find out probably.

[A]

But this is a good argument for the death penalty.

[B]

We see repeat offenders, right? We see it and it's a matter of whether or not they get caught. And if it's a hardcore predator. You know, we want to categorize these guys and put them all in one, you know, subset. The truth is they're not all one guy. You've got the hardcore heavy hitters who should be locked up for life because they're never going to stop. And they'll tell you that you've got the young guys who are socially inept, who will take advantage of a younger child. Wrong. And if you ask me, there's no difference between the damage an 18 year old can do to a 12 year old than a 38 year old can do to a 12 Year Old. Same, same damage. You're a grown ass man, you shouldn't be doing It. And then there are these guys who are curious and they wouldn't do it but for the Internet. So how do we handle those three different groups of criminals?

[A]

Oh, you mean being influenced by things on the Internet?

[B]

Yeah, and having access and engaging in the porn. And that's the teacher we catch, you know, that's the guy who's the bank executive who's never harmed his own children. But he sees, he's watching the porn, it gets younger and younger and he sees an opportunity to exploit a 14, 15 year old girl and he does it. And so what do you do with him? Can he be incarcerated for four or five years and never do it again? It's a pretty good chance of it, I think. But you don't know. And that's the problem. The good news is, you know, we have a sex offender registry in this country. So even if these guys get parole, they have to register and that way you can keep track of them. That way they're on parole. And if they violate, and you hope there's not a real victim there, but if they violate, then they're gone for a long time.

[A]

What is it? Megan's.

[B]

Megan's Law.

[A]

Megan's Law, that's one of them gov right to government site. I mean, I've used that myself and I. They're not supposed to live near schools, parks. And I see these maps and I'm like, what's this big star? It's like, oh, that's an apartment complex and there's multiple people live in that dwelling. I'm like, what?

[B]

Oh yeah. And one of the sponsors of my podcast, Predators I've caught is truthfinder.com.

[A]

Okay, that's another one.

[B]

And so we use that technology and we use LexisNexis to, you know, in the research for our reporting. And it's shocking how many times you're doing a background check on somebody and you just Look. And there's 99 other sex offenders living in that same area. Yes. And it's not just Florida or, you know, they're everywhere. It could be, you know, Maryland or Michigan or, you know, we do a lot of work all around the country.

[A]

So what are the sites parents can go to to look up if they think there's any or want to know if there's any sex offenders in their area?

[B]

Well, they can go to, you know, any government site. You know, if you go to the Michigan Department of Corrections or the Illinois Department of Corrections, it'll list them right there. If you Google sex offenders, if you subscribe to One of these places like truthheader.com that's right there. My recommendation to all parents is to become familiar with the national center for Missing Exploited Children website.

[A]

Missing and exploited.

[B]

Is that. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's, it's, it's the foundation that John Walsh and his wife started in the aftermath of Adam's kidnapping and killing. And it's a great resource. Even if you don't have a missing child, say for instance, your kid gets talked into sending sexually suggestive pictures and they're out there and they're being traded. NCMEC will give you guidelines and a methodology to get them taken down.

[A]

Oh, is that right?

[B]

Yeah, it's a really, we've worked closely with Nick Nick for many, many years. John Walsh is a dear friend of mine professionally and personally. And, and so there are ways to do that. But, but you know, another thing that people need to know about is this sextortion and we've got a documentary in the work.

[A]

What is that?

[B]

Extortion is when typically a young man is approached online by somebody who claims to be a good looking young woman. There's a chit chat, I'll send you mine, you send me yours, he sends his. Then they exploit. I'm going to put this all over Facebook. Grandma's going to see it unless you give me money. Now the person posing as the girl is actually a scam artist in Nigeria. And they work these kids, they get absolutely as much money out of them as they can. Two, three hundred dollars, sometimes even less. But these kids face such shame, especially the good kids. The kids are heading to college, the athletes, and in some cases they're committing suicide. And I've sat with four different sets of parents who've lost children in this way. One set was up in Marquette, Michigan where they actually, the sheriff's department up there collaborated with the FBI and they went to Nigeria, they got these guys extradited. Now they're in federal prison.

[A]

Good.

[B]

Here, here.

[A]

Good.

[B]

That's the first time they really had this breakthrough. Now there's a template for going after these guys. But the sextion thing is real and in the bigger picture of it, we as parents and my guys are older now. They're out of the, they're journalists in their own right. But we as parents, especially that, that age between 14 and 16, we need to let our kids know that if they screw up, if a picture does get out, it's not the end of the world. Grandma's not going to see your junk. And if she does, she's going to Forget about it. Very likely. And sometime in the next 18 months anyway. Right. So she's going to forget about it. Right. It's not the end of the world.

[A]

Grandma already saw it anyway.

[B]

She probably changed her diaper. Right? Yeah, exactly. You effed up, up. Let's get past it. Let's take it down. Let's. But come to me, these kids aren't bad kids who are committing suicide. They're good kids. And that's part of the thing that they're so wound up about is that they're, they're afraid that they let their parents down. They're afraid of the embarrassment and shock. It's like, look, you know, it's a vast world out there littered with potential traps and pitfalls and embarrassment. And let's just try not to get into it in the first place. But if you do, I'm here. It's the extension of what I said to my kids, which is if you're out and the designated driver has had too much to drink, I'll come get you. We're not going to discuss it that night. We will discuss it at some point. We're not going to discuss it that night. You're not going to be in trouble for doing it. And you have to allow them that room to fail safely. And the same is true with the Internet. And I can't be more passionate about getting that message across to all of us who are parents, because that's it. I mean, that's the difference between a dead kid and a live kid.

[A]

You mentioned John Walsh. So years ago, Tom Segura and I, Tom had actually.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Chatted with him. He's a good guy.

[A]

He got, he was working for, I want to say discovery. It was September 10, 2001. And then nine, 11 hits. And they're like, hey buddy, you're not an intern anymore. Let's go. And he got to be friendly with John Walsh and everything at the time. And John ended up having Tom come to a country club down in Florida. So the two of us, Tom took me, went, did a little stand up show and afterwards we hung out with his kids. We went back to a house party they were having and they were telling us that because their dad is who he is and he's putting away the top fucking criminals in the world that men want that man dead.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that they have a fortress basically in their house where it's got its own Internet, its own phone, its own anything in case they needed a bit of a panic room, so to speak. Do you have Anything like that?

[B]

Do you need anything? We take a lot of precautions, you know, obviously, and security is something that that's.

[A]

Are you behind. Please tell me you're behind a gate where you live.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, we're, you know, again, you know, we have people who keep an eye out for us. And I think.

[A]

Do you have guys in the past that have tried to come after you from the shows or anything like that?

[B]

Nobody overtly that I'm aware of. I mean, you know, we deal with threats all the time, you know, and you have to be careful not to allow the threat to become the terror, because most of the time, if somebody's going to try to do you harm, they're not going to call and tell you about it beforehand. But yes, I mean, you know, we obviously are very close with the NYPD because I, you know, I'm there a lot. We're close to law enforcement across the country. But I, again, just like when we do the sting, I think we've got so much in place that I, I feel that we've made our environment absolutely is and safe as possible.

[A]

Going back to the. You mentioned there's guys in prison waiting for these guys. What do you think it is? Because we've all heard it, you know, these guys murder people, they rob people, they whatever. But something about touching a child, even in. In among the most animalistic of the people on this planet.

[B]

I think it's because so many of the people doing a hard time were victimized themselves. For whatever reason, they went down the bad path to become a criminal, but they have these horrible memories of some sort of exploitation or abuse. And so when they see somebody who's overtly. Somebody who's committed crimes against children, there is a sense that there needs to be jailhouse justice. I'll give you an extreme example. There's a guy named J.D. delay. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but content creator, great guy. He's become a friend, did time for drugs and theft and all kinds of other stuff, but turned his life around. He too was the victim of this as a child and figured it out. And now he helps other former inmates assimilate into life. It does amazing work and he's a great content creator. But he told me the story once I hit him on my podcast about a guy who sexually exploited a girl, went to prison. The girl's father committed a crime to make sure he got in that same prison. Oh, and when they caught the two together, he had already taken a shank and had Was up to here scalping him.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Before they pulled him off him.

[A]

God, you talk about being a dedicated father, bro.

[B]

That's. That's, that's. Holy.

[A]

I'm going to prison.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I got to get in the.

[B]

One where he is.

[A]

You could actually roll the dice, go.

[B]

To the wrong one. Holy. To shiv halfway up his skull.

[A]

Now you're in forever. Now, I'm guessing that's. That's attempted murder.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

That'll get your.

[A]

That dead good for that. Dad, there was something here about a bathroom break. It's written up there. What was bathroom break? Why do we have that written?

[B]

Oh, we were doing this sting once, actually. We're in Fairfield, where the guy from the train showed up. And this happens from time to time where the guy drives. And we've had guys drive four, five, six hours. We had a guy. We had a guy in one of our recent investigations in Louisiana drove from Arkansas. Six hours in the middle of the night.

[A]

For a child.

[B]

For a child, they always have to pee. Now, this presents a problem for a lot of different reasons, but if we let the guy go in, maybe he comes out, sits down on the couch, we have a conversation. Maybe he does something to himself, prepares to do something to others. We generally don't let that happen.

[A]

I see. Because now they're going in that room with the door shut.

[B]

We lose control of the stuff situation. Right. And what, what happens? Does he harm himself? Does he harm others? Does he come out blazing? Whatever. But in one case In Fairfield, about 10 years ago, the guy went in the. The on site decoy let him go in, she disappears. Now I'm waiting for him. So he thinks that he's going to walk out to see this cute girl who's 13 years old or 14 years old. Instead walks face to face with me. And the look on his face was just priceless. Go ahead, have a seat right over there. What happened to my dream date? You know, I'm your dream date now.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Six hour drive and you come out to meet Chris Hansen.

[B]

Hell yeah. That's a bad day. That's a bad day, brother. And ain't nothing good gonna come out of that.

[A]

All right, so give advice again. You said you've told the parents, you know, hey, that's. Come talk to me. It's not the end of the world.

[B]

And I think you need to start it. Give us Internet.

[A]

Give us some Internet. I mean, my dog.

[B]

As soon as they get on.

[A]

So what are they called? The Tick Tocks and all these other ones Help me out here. Let's.

[B]

You need to tell them that there are adults on the Internet, tick tock everywhere Roblox, who like to trick children. Children don't like to be tricked. So that gets their attention right there. So be aware of grown ups who are trying to trick children. It sounds like something that shouldn't happen. And I will never trick you, your mom will never trick you. But some bad adults out there, there are criminals who will do that. And then you have to ratchet that discussion up in an age appropriate way. Each kid's different, but my message to everybody is if you don't know them in real life irl, you don't know them in virtual life online. Now, this person may say that they're a 14 year old surfer dude from San Diego, but that doesn't mean that he's not a 53 year old fat man sitting in his mother's basement in his underwear surrounded by pizza boxes. And if you can use that colorful sort of storytelling, kids remember that they do. And you're better off having that conversation and creating awareness and saying, well, I don't understand how the Internet works. And the worst thing you can do is say, well, my kid's never going to be on the Internet. Well, guess what, there's Internet at Starbucks, there's Internet at the friend's house. They're outside the school. It's like we said when the kids were younger, used to try to keep them from certain violent video games. Well, they just went over to the friend's neighbor's house and you know, they're playing Grand Theft Auto and you know, what are you gonna do on the.

[A]

World of kids too? Then you have the older siblings who are teaching them this stuff. You know, you got to remember a lot of it's in house too, you know, Right.

[B]

And, and take advantage of things in the news. Yeah. I remember when my boys, the older boys were in, in high school, they went to a private school in Connecticut and they went to school with kids whose dads did a lot of cool stuff. Wall street guys, athletes, shipbuilders. So having a dad on television wasn't that big of a deal. But when south park did the Chris Hansen parody, suddenly I was the coolest dad. That's the one they were. People ask all the time, it's like, does that bother you? The south park did a rip on you, said, not at all. They're bright guys, you know, I, I did. They don't tell you it's coming.

[A]

Oh, you didn't get a heads Up.

[B]

No, not from South. South park just does what they want when they want. Simpsons calls you and come into the studio. Do your own voice. But. And. And I respect the guys at South Park. They're. They're funny, smart guys. But my agent texts me, I was in San Francisco on a shoot. He says, south park is doing tonight. It's pretty funny. I said, oh, great. I'll watch it when it comes on here. Then about 20 minutes later, it's taken a dark turn. But it was. It's fine. You know what? If that brings attention to this very important cause.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it was done with intellectual integrity. I mean, it's a funny bit. You know, I take no offense.

[A]

I love hearing you say that, you know, Intellectual integrity. Yes.

[B]

I take no offense whatsoever to that.

[A]

So you're obviously. I know you're not sharing the ugliest of the things you've ever seen. You see the worst of the worst in people. How do you go home and turn that off?

[B]

Off.

[A]

How do you compartmentalize your day and then go home and be a loving.

[B]

It's a great question. You know, I've gotten good over the years, and I've been doing this for, As I mentioned, 42, 43 years as a journalist, as a television journalist. You know, you have to learn how to compartmentalize. You have to learn how to be fit physically. And physical fitness leads to mental fitness. And you got to be able to go ski down a mountain or hit a ball with a stick, whatever your sport is, or a paddle, or go cook paella or wander around the city and, you know, go bask in the pride of your children, you know, whatever it is. Go to Costco, whatever you do that gets you out of that. The grind of doing an investigation where you. You got all these guys, and we work from sometimes two in the afternoon or two in the morning, sometimes later. And my crew goes through it. They're right there with me. You know, these guys are, I imagine.

[A]

A lot of your parents as well, with kids that age range.

[B]

All parents. Most of us are parents. And like I said, you know, my guys are old enough to actually be out there doing it now as one behind the camera, one in front of the camera. But, you know, you just. I guess I'm built for it, you know, I'm fortunate in that I'm doing the job that I was meant to do. Not necessarily catching predators, but being an investigative reporter, that's what I was made to do. I'm very comfortable with that. I've never looked back.

[A]

You've never had to go to therapy or anything.

[B]

I should, I mean, that's probably. There's a good argument for doing that. I mean, I get, I get, get letters from therapists all the time. And I've met a lot of therapists and psychiatrists over the years who said, you know, you really ought to as a good. But, you know, I'm cognizant of it and I'm cognizant of the impact that has had in different ways in different parts of my life. But I think you do something long enough where you can put it into context and you can set it aside when you need to and go about the business of living a life, productive life. But I've seen people, you know, get dark and not come out of it and it's, it's not a good place to be.

[A]

Have you ever had someone within your circle? And by circle, I mean large circle, all the way to the crew. Anyone where you've ever had something with their kids and you got that person. Have you ever helped bus someone in sort of the fringe world of yours?

[B]

That's a great question. And I'm trying to think of any specific examples. There have been situations where, you know, a parent has come to me from my circle.

[A]

I can only imagine.

[B]

Yeah, you're the guy going on. And I can put them in contact very quickly and directly with somebody in law enforcement to handle it. I've also had people come to me and say, you know, we're worried about my aunt, uncle who's, you know, being financially scammed by somebody. And I've gotten involved in those cases too, to help out. But, you know, that's, that's part of the show. That's part of your, your gig is if you're going to do it professionally and somebody comes to you personally, you try to help them out.

[A]

I mean, imagine it's like a doctor, somebody's like, my elbows kill me.

[B]

Let me see it. You know, and so you do your best. You do the best you can. And if you can't help them, then you connect them with somebody who can. But yeah, the family, you know, whatever it is, you know, you also get hit up for tickets to Tigers games too. But, you know, sometimes I can help, sometimes I can't. You know, for Michigan State Spartans games, you try to do your best. You know, I'm an all service provider.

[A]

So what do you think it is about you that hasn't turned you into, you know, a negative? Really? Like I don't. You see, you came in, you've got great energy. You seem happy.

[B]

Well, I am happy. I am happy. What is it about a long and winding road? You know, And I think you get to a point in life where you're squared and centered. You know, I'm 65 years old. I've been doing this a long time. My kids are. I feel great. I feel great. But you also have to adjust your lifestyle as you get older to maintain your psychological health, your physical health. And if you want to be in the game, like Mike Wallace or, you know, a lot of other people who do this very aggressively, well into their 70s, and you got to be fit. There's no. There's no magic to it. It's not science. It's not. I mean, genes maybe have something to do with it, but, you know, you got to be in the game.

[A]

So you're taking care of yourself mentally, too. A lot of that exercise really does push that.

[B]

The exercise for you, huh? I go to a trainer in New York City, Robert Brace, and he's got a lot of tv, Internet people, you know, large names. And it's. It's not just a physical fitness thing. It's a. It's a lifestyle thing. And, you know, I've got my kids into it. And I think the sooner that you figure that out and the sooner that you're using physical fitness as an escape or release valve and not three drinks or smoking a joint or taking a gummy. I mean, true freedom is to be able to do all this stuff without needing chemicals. Right? And I believe that. And I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't drink or have fun or do whatever they do as long as they're not harming their self or others. I'm just saying is you got to get to a point in life where you can just face life. Otherwise you're cheating yourself because you're not going to experience everything.

[A]

So after these shows and stuff, you've never been like, man, I have.

[B]

Absolutely. I have. But I've gotten to the point where I'm past that because the alternative is not healthy. And if you go too far down that trail, you're not going to look good. No. You're not going to feel.

[A]

It's going to kill you for sure anyway.

[B]

And again, you know, I grew up in a. In a family where the, you know, the previous generation invented the three martini launch. I mean, I, you know, I figured it out years ago that that's not the way to go. But I'm not. I'm not pretending like I never took part in it or push my luck with it. I'm just saying is, you know, if you're really going to be happy, you got to figure out how to do it without it.

[A]

So you've been chasing predators now catching them. Let's say not chasing, Chasing and catching, I guess. How many years?

[B]

21 years.

[A]

21 years of ugliness. Is there anything that happens even this long into your career where you're still like, wow, oh, every. Every off, blown away, every sting. Is that right?

[B]

We had a guy in this last investigation of Marion County, Florida, and I was sitting there with him, and he knew exactly who I was. He had seen the shows, even the newer ones. And I said, what the hell happened to you? Why? You know, you're engaging this behavior, You've got a child of your own, you've got a fiance, you're at your place of work, you manage an oil change place, and you're having this conversation and then you show up. And he finally. After jerking me around and jerking me around, you could see his face go like this. And he went on to tell me how he was sexually exploited by an older couple in his neighborhood.

[A]

A couple.

[B]

A couple. And he goes on and on, and I believe every word he said. Yeah, because he didn't have to tell me this.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

He could have told me, pound sand and said, you know, I was just here to check it, whatever the excuse was. And he went into great detail on this, and you could see him have his meltdown and get this off his chest. And it didn't excuse what he was doing that day. He's still in trouble, but at least he is at a point where he can turn it around now. And I don't think there's. I don't think he was bullshitting me. I don't.

[A]

Is there turning it around for a former pedo, though?

[B]

I.

[A]

Other than stopping that behavior, there's no, there's no guarantee. There's also nobody society that's going to want to work with you, hire. You're like, hey, he's cool now.

[B]

Yeah, it's. I mean, you look at the Epstein thing, you know, and that's all opened up again.

[A]

How, how much about that do you know?

[B]

Well, I, I, you know, we. I was pursuing it aggressively in 15, 16, and I got too complicated with it. I wanted to do a sting. And the fact is there were so many layers of security, I couldn't get anywhere. So I set it aside to work on other things. And it was the Miami Herald that kept chipping away as A daily newspaper, the reporters day after day after day, who finally got some of the victims to speak out, which was the backbone of the federal government's case when they nabbed him in 2019. Now, you know, what does Ghislaine Maxwell know? What is she going to say? I mean, obviously I'm pursuing a lot of different angles to it, but I can't take credit for any great reporting on it because we never got that far into it.

[A]

So let me ask you this then, because we hear about this all the time. We hear about this elite pedophile ring that, that goes through entertainment, government, all this stuff. You've been in this for decades. Do you believe that to be true? Because as much as we all want to say no, right. All this shit just keeps coming up and it turns out that it's true.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So is there, I don't know that there's.

[B]

There's an elite pedophile ring per se. I think that there are people in elite circles who have engaged in this behavior, who have used their connections, their wealth and their power to cover it up, up. And that leads people to come up with the conspiracies. And, you know, a portion of a conspiracy is often true. That's how it starts.

[A]

Yes, it is.

[B]

Right. So I can't tell you that it's never happened. I can tell you that some of the more far flung things, you know, probably are true. But, you know, look at the, look at the history of it. You get Epstein, who is courting all these powerful, wealthy people. Pictures and trips on the private jet. I mean, even after he was on the sex offender registry list.

[A]

Is that right? Wait, after he was still doing. Oh, I didn't know that.

[B]

So he went to, you know, he went away in, you know, the mid2678, right around there. And he came out after that 13 month sentence where he, you know, basically was able to get out of the county jail every. Every day to go to work. It was a sweetheart deal. And they were able to sell that, I think, because they were able to create the perception that, you know, okay, this is icky, it's bad, it's illegal, it's immoral. But he was just, he was taking girls who are technically of age and getting to do massages. Well, in reality, this is way worse. I mean, he was exploiting vulnerable girls who are underage, not just in Florida, but, you know, all around the world, when you think about what was happening. And here's a guy who, you know, had his own cottage up at A music camp in northern Michigan. He had a ranch in New Mexico and the island. And, you know, the federal government suggests there are up to a thousand victims of this. And I still have conversations with lawyers who represent some of these people, hoping that, you know, some of these people will ultimately talk. So I'm not giving up on it. You know, I was a little late to the game on the story. Obviously, it's interesting to me because of all the other work I've done in catching predators. He is the ultimate predator. And, you know, does. Do they subpoena Ghislaine Maxwell in front of Congress? I mean, she's the one who knows everything. She was the procurer.

[A]

Everything.

[B]

I mean, I know for a fact that she would hang out near college campuses, bus stops, things, and approach girls, much like a woman would do in a county jail who was tight with a pimp and say, oh, you're in a tough shape. Well, I can get you out of there, make some quick money. Next thing you know, you're in a life of human trafficking and prostitution. This recruitment was at the same level, and she was engaging in it, there's no doubt.

[A]

So this mental illness. I'm assuming it's a mental illness.

[B]

Well, it's. It's that it's a criminal.

[A]

It doesn't care about your status. It doesn't care about your money. You said you've had rabbis come in. We're talking about people who are revered in society and everything else with priests and all these other things we hear about. And it goes. It's just whatever. You've seen them from the top of the top all the way down. So what is it that parents should look out for?

[B]

Well, I think if the child is getting close to anybody, you don't know in real life, if the child is getting gifts, if the child has got money that you didn't give the child, those are all warning signs, and the child should be on your radar.

[A]

Well, my daughter goes to sleepover. I want to know my daughter. My daughter's mom sometimes thinks I overdo it, but I want to know, is there an uncle that lives over there?

[B]

Yeah, I don't know. You have every right to ask that question. Because I've seen the stories and the cases where the dad is hosting the. You know, the divorced dad is hosting.

[A]

The sleepovers at my house. I make sure the pair. I say, would you like to come in?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Would you like to come see my home, make sure, you know, it's safe, what we're doing here? I'll give you a tour of the building. You know, all that. That also, as a single dad, I never thought anyone would ever let me have a sleepover. But I just had one a couple weeks ago and the parents came over and they're like, yep, no problem. We know also.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I mean, I am a very easily googleable person who you could find pretty quickly, unlike some of these people who probably vanish into the night. But I want to know, if you're sleeping over there, who's over there? Is there a grandfather that lives in the house? Is. It's always a dude.

[B]

Right?

[A]

I always want to know if that uncle's staying over.

[B]

T shirt.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A teacher. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. This has been great, man. Thank you so much for be here.

[B]

Ryan. It's great to see you and hang out and do all this.

[A]

Before we wrap up, I'd love to hear advice you would give to 16 year old Chris Hansen.

[B]

16 year old Chris Hansen. I would tell 16 year old Chris Hansen that. That perpetual optimism is a force multiplier. Damn. And that comes from Colin Powell, our former Secretary of State.

[A]

Say it again.

[B]

Perpetual optimism is a force multiplier.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

It's one of Colin Powell's 13 rules of success. It ain't as bad as it looks. It'll look better in the morning. Be demanding of yourself. Understanding of others, those things. It's really a brilliant list. I mean, I have it on my dresser.

[A]

I look at it, look it up now. You should. That's great.

[B]

And also, you know, the thing that I've come to rely upon is a sense of stoicism. You know, if you read, there's a book that everybody should read. It's called the Book of Charlie. And it's about a guy who lived to be 109 years old or something, that was a doctor and the story of his life. But it gets into stoicism and Marcus Aurelius. And it sent me down this path. And I've shared this with countless people. My friends are tired of hearing about it. Right. My wife is tired of hearing about it. It everybody's tired of hearing about. But it really in here, Jerry Seinfeld talk about it. It's like, all right, it's not that important what other people say about you. You need to do your job the way you know how to do your job. Whether you're a comedian, whether you're a podcast host with your journalist, whether you're a cop, whatever you're doing, Focus on what's important, focus on what you need to do. Not with the other noises. And it's especially important to teach kids that it doesn't matter what some jerk is saying online. It's pretend. Somebody used to say about Twitter. Now x Twitter's gonna hate that. Twitter hates everything.

[A]

Everything.

[B]

Everything. Those people are not real. They're not real.

[A]

They're not real.

[B]

Who's real? You're sitting here. You're real. Our families are real. Our kids are real. But tune out the noise.

[A]

That's great. Thank you so much for doing this. I'm really, really glad you did this.

[B]

Right there, too.

[A]

One more time. Promote everything you'd like.

[B]

True Blue T R u B L U. Watch trueblue.com for details. New predator investigations called Takedown Drop every Thursday. The podcast is Predators I've Caught and soon. Have a seat with Chris Hansen as well. Wherever you get your podcast, this is great.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[B]

Thank you. I appreciate it.

[A]

As always, Ryan Sickler on all your social media. We'll talk to you all next week.

[B]

Sam.