359: John Amaechi - Reaching the League in Six Years

Summary

Podcast Summary: The HoneyDew with Ryan Sickler

Episode 359: John Amaechi – Reaching the League in Six Years
Release Date: November 10, 2025
Guest: John Amaechi (former NBA player, psychologist, author)

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Episode Overview

This episode features John Amaechi, a British former NBA player, organizational psychologist, and author. Together with host Ryan Sickler, they explore John's unconventional journey to the NBA, growing up in a single-parent family in Manchester, grappling with his identity as a gay man in professional sports, and his transition to a career in psychology and leadership. True to The HoneyDew’s style, the conversation leans into life’s lowlights, finding both humor and meaning in adversity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Life in Manchester and Family Dynamics

• Single-Parent Upbringing: John grew up in Stockport, near Manchester, with his mother (a GP) and two sisters, after his father left early in his life ([04:30–05:54]).
• Father’s Absence and Fear: There was a persistent childhood fear of his father trying to reclaim the children, leading to John and his siblings staying close to home ([06:03–07:04]).
• Not a ‘Rags to Riches’ Tale: Despite the struggles, John emphasizes his mother provided a secure, loving home:

  “I need to be clear, I wasn’t one of those rags to riches things. My mum was a doctor. Although we weren’t rich, I never was left wanting.”
  — John Amaechi [04:30]

2. Discovering Basketball Late

• Zero Awareness Until 17: John discovered basketball only at age 17, after being approached by a stranger on the street ([08:29–13:10]).

  “Before I was approached on the street, I didn’t know that basketball existed.”
  — John Amaechi [08:29]

• Non-traditional School Sports: His grammar school only offered rugby or lacrosse, due to English class structures ([10:15–11:58]).
• First Basketball Club: He joined the ‘Shop Local Basketball Club’—a team playing in modest facilities, lacking infrastructure typical in the US ([13:10–14:03]).
• Instant Belonging: Even though he initially failed spectacularly, he felt immediately welcomed and found positivity and encouragement ([14:03–15:40]).

  “Where else can I be where people can watch my abject failure and frame it as something positive? …I’m never leaving this place.”
  — John Amaechi [15:12]

3. The NBA Dream: From Idea to Reality

• NBA Goal Formed on Day One: After learning about the NBA, he declared he’d play there—just 45 mins into his first basketball session ([16:18–16:20]).
• Mother’s Support and Challenge: His mother was supportive yet challenging, asking:

  “Would you recognize your soul in the dark?”
  — John Amaechi’s mother [20:43]
  The question made John confront his personality and work ethic.

• Late Start, Rapid Rise: John played his first game at 17, then went to the US, playing only one year of American high school basketball before earning a scholarship ([22:07–25:34]).
• Unprecedented Path:

  “You’re the only player in the history of the NBA to start playing at 17 and then make it to the league in six years.”
  — Ryan Sickler [22:57]

4. US Transition and College Career

• Cultural Adjustment: John’s move to America was a culture shock, from the climate to dialect ([23:55–24:56]).
• Choosing Colleges: He attended Vanderbilt for academics, then transferred to Penn State for more playing time after being underestimated ([25:43–26:37]).
• Death of His Mother: While at Penn State, John’s mother passed away from breast cancer. The school arranged for him to return to the UK on the Concorde so he could see her before her death ([32:41–38:04]).
• Motivation through Sacrifice:

  “There were memories and moments I could have had with [my mom]...I missed all that in order to get to the NBA. So you better believe when she’s gone, there’s not a chance that I’m gonna say ‘oh well, maybe it wasn’t for me’.”
  — John Amaechi [43:05]

5. Breaking into the NBA

• Undrafted, Self-Funded Tryouts: John was not drafted but invested $30,000 in his own training and fought his way onto the Cleveland Cavaliers roster ([39:42–43:05]).
• Cutthroat Culture:

  “You’d see [the trainers] come in with a clipboard...and just pulling a tape above your head. That’s a hell of a way to be cut, man.”
  — Ryan Sickler [41:59]

• First Game Experience Against Jordan’s Bulls:

  “My first shot is an easy wide open layup that is blocked into the stands by Scottie Pippen, who...says, ‘Welcome to the league.’”
  — John Amaechi [44:08]

6. Being the First Openly Gay NBA Player

• Early Realization: John knew he was gay from age 11 and felt the stigma sharply during the AIDS crisis ([46:38–47:41]).
• Living Closeted in the League:

  “I just put my personal life in a box under the bed and it stayed.”
  — John Amaechi [50:22]

• Loneliness and Double Standards: He describes the loneliness of living closeted and the hypocrisy in sports culture ([51:08–52:40]).
• Coming Out Post-Retirement:

  “If I was going to do this, what I needed to do is have everything in one place...I started writing a book.”
  — John Amaechi [59:43]

• Mixed Reactions: He describes receiving death threats but also support; he’s most disappointed by the apathy of the majority ([61:08–63:03]):

  “The biggest disappointment...was the 75% in the middle who were apathetic, unmoved in a way that didn’t allow for any kind of progress.”
  — John Amaechi [61:55]

7. Life After Basketball: Psychology and Leadership

• Academic Focus: John earned a PhD in psychology while playing in the NBA, finding purpose and satisfaction in this field ([63:51–64:03]).
• Helping Others:

  “I was always pretty average as an NBA player. I’m an all star at this...This is my all star job.”
  — John Amaechi [69:32–70:48]

• Current Work: John coaches senior leaders across various industries, bringing his lived experience and insight to help others thrive through uncertainty ([69:14–70:48]).

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Notable Quotes

On Discovering Basketball & Pursuing the NBA

• “You’d be great at basketball. And it was literally the first time outside of my family that I’d ever heard anybody tell me I’d be great at anything.”
  — John Amaechi [09:04]
• “I’m doing this, even though I didn’t know what I was doing…I was like, I’m never leaving this place.”
  — John Amaechi [15:12]
• “I told them all, ‘Yeah, I’m gonna play in the NBA.’”
  — John Amaechi [16:18]
• “You’re the only player in the history of the NBA to start playing at 17 and then make it to the league in six years.”
  — Ryan Sickler [22:57]

On Family and Sacrifice

• “Too many sacrifices…I missed all that in order to get to the NBA. So you better believe when she’s gone, there’s not a chance that I’m gonna…say, ‘oh well, maybe it wasn’t for me.’”
  — John Amaechi [43:05]

On Being Gay in Professional Sports

• “I just put my personal life in a box under the bed and it stayed.”
  — John Amaechi [50:22]
• “It was a lonely time…to be a really good player…known by everybody in Orlando… and to be completely alone on purpose.”
  — John Amaechi [51:08]
• “I started writing a book...Your idea of my story is too small. And this is a part of it and an important part of it. It's just part of it.”
  — John Amaechi [59:43]

On Self-Acceptance and Advice to His Younger Self

• “Love your body, man. Just, just bask in it…because it doesn’t. It betrays you later on.”
  — John Amaechi [71:02]

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Most Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• John’s First Basketball Practice and Choosing to Pursue the NBA ([13:10–16:20])
• The First Dunk and John’s View on Athleticism ([16:27–18:48])
• Mother’s Passing and the Surreal Experience of Flying the Concorde to Say Goodbye ([32:41–38:04])
• Blocked Layup by Scottie Pippen in His First Pre-Season Game ([44:08])
• Experience Coming Out and Writing His Book ([59:43–63:03])
• Advice to His Younger Self on Self-Image ([71:02])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------|------------| | Family Background and Father’s Absence | 04:30–07:04| | Discovery of Basketball, Shop Local Team | 08:29–14:03| | Declares NBA Ambition – First Practice | 16:18–16:20| | College and Cultural Adjustment | 23:55–26:05| | Flying Home for Mother’s Illness (Concorde) | 32:41–38:04| | Making NBA as an Undrafted Player | 39:42–43:50| | First Game vs. Chicago Bulls (Pippen block) | 44:08 | | On Being Gay in the League/Coming Out | 46:38–63:03| | Transition to Psychology and Leadership | 63:51–70:48| | Advice to 16-Year-Old Self | 71:02 |

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Tone and Language

John is articulate, self-effacing, honest, and insightful, blending humor and vulnerability. Ryan’s style is warm, direct, and supportive, encouraging John to dive deep and laugh at even the most challenging parts of his story.

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Promotions & Endnotes

• John’s new book: It’s Not Magic: The Ordinary Skills of Exceptional Leaders
• Socials: LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok

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Summary Takeaway:
John Amaechi’s journey is an extraordinary testament to rapid achievement against the odds, honest self-examination, and the courage to live authentically. From late basketball bloomer to NBA starter, from closeted athlete to outspoken advocate, and from player to psychologist, his story is both deeply human and quietly revolutionary.

Transcript

[Ryan Sickler]

Guys, it's been, I think a little over a week now and I can't thank you enough for all the kind words and the great feedback on this special. I am going to sit here and pat myself on the back. I went from almost being killed to releasing this special and it's been a two and a half year labor of love and we crushed it. I found every single person to work on this within a single dad budget living in this expensive ass city of Los Angeles. And I'm going to say we crushed it. We did. This is nothing like my last special. This special is special. It's a bit of a one man show retelling of a near death experience live and alive streaming on my YouTube now. And go give it some extra love because YouTube demonetized it within two days. Somebody complained about it, they took it out of the algorithm, we fought, they got us back in there, but it's already killed the momentum. So it is what it is. Go over there, tell everyone, share, everyone, like comment, help to get back in that algorithm. All right. And while you're there, go to the store. All right. Go to ryancickler.com click on the merch. We got a fall clearance sale going on right now. You're going to get a free t shirt and three free gifts with every apparel purchase. We got $10 tees and hats. We got $20 hoodies and pants. That's joggers. That's night. I'm telling you, you're not going to find this sale anywhere else. Get it now. When they're gone, they're gone. Christmas is coming. Go to the merch store now. Get your fuck Steve shirts. Get your honeydew merch. Go get it now. The Honeydew with Ryan Sickler. Welcome back to the Honeydew, y'.

[John Ameche]

All.

[Ryan Sickler]

We're over doing it in the night pants studios. I AM Ryan Sickler. RyanCickler.com and Ryan Sickler on all your social media. And I'm starting this one like I start them all by saying thank you. Thank you for watching this show. Thank you for being subscribed to this channel. I can't tell you how grateful I am that I get to come in here and do this. And look, I know a lot of you love the show and if you want more, you gotta check out the Patreon. We've been doing it for years. It's been $5 a month. Four years. And it's this show with y'.

[John Ameche]

All.

[Ryan Sickler]

It's called the Honeydew with y'. All. And it is, I promise you, it's the wildest show on the Internet. You guys have the craziest story. So if you or someone you know has a story that has to be heard, please submit it to [e-mail]. if you sent it before, send it again. We get a lot of them. Bump it to the top. We would love to do your story. All right, that's the biz. You guys know what we do over here? We highlight the low lights. I always say that these are the stories behind the storytellers. I am very excited to have this guest on with us today. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome John Ameche. Welcome to the Honeydew, John.

[John Ameche]

Thank you.

[Ryan Sickler]

I'm very excited to have you here, brother. Thank you. We've been talking for quite a bit.

[John Ameche]

Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

Before. Before we get into what we're going to talk about today, please, right there. Promote everything and anything you'd like.

[John Ameche]

I have a new book coming out. It is called It's Not Magic. The Ordinary Skills of Exceptional Leaders. It is well worth a look at. In a world where everyone is being told they can't lead, this is the book that'll tell you some basic skills. Take a look at it. Also, I'm not quite as prolific as you on social media, but I'm on social media on LinkedIn. I think that's the old person social media. But I'm also on Instagram and even TikTok, much to the chagrin of my younger colleagues who think that I'm too old for TikTok. So give me a follow.

[Ryan Sickler]

I don't think. Look, I. I'm not on TikTok. I have one of my producers does my TikTok. But we're not too old to be on it. You got to be on it. That's where it is today.

[John Ameche]

I agree.

[Ryan Sickler]

If the. If the audience is there, it's where you got to go. Who says there's an age for it now? Do we need to be tick tock dancing and doing the trends?

[John Ameche]

Yeah. I guarantee we are too old for that. I guarantee you there will be no tick tock.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

We are too old.

[John Ameche]

I cannot take that.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

So there's a lot I want to.

[Ryan Sickler]

Talk to you about. You're a very interesting man. You're a former NBA player. You're a current psychologist, correct?

[John Ameche]

Yep.

[Ryan Sickler]

Um, what else? Tell us what else? Author, obviously. Author, published, all nerd, geek. All right.

[John Ameche]

Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

I mean, let's go back to the beginning.

[John Ameche]

Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

Where are you originally from? Tell us quickly. You know Just give us.

[John Ameche]

So I am from a place called Stockport. It's near Manchester. People know that. Mostly from Manchester United. I grew up with my two sisters and my mum, she took care of us. She was a doctor, a GP in Stockport. I had an amazing childhood. Despite the fact that, you know, some people, I think, think having a single parent is inherently problematic. I need to be clear, I wasn't one of those rags to riches things. My mum was a doctor. Although we weren't rich, I never was left wanting. So I had a pretty good start in life.

[Ryan Sickler]

Well, a lot of people have a good start in life and then they it up for themselves.

[John Ameche]

So yeah, good for. I've done that too. I've done that too.

[Ryan Sickler]

But you came pretty quickly with the single parent. So his d never in the picture. Is he like just.

[John Ameche]

No. And do you.

[Ryan Sickler]

Can I ask you, do you. All three siblings, same dad?

[John Ameche]

Yes.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay, so he's. And who's the oldest?

[John Ameche]

So I'm the oldest and then I've got two sisters, one who lives here in Los Angeles, works in the film industry and the other who lives in the UK in Manchester still.

[Ryan Sickler]

And when does dad split?

[John Ameche]

Very early. So we left. We were all in Boston because my mum was working in Boston at the time and we left when I was three, three and a half, something like that. I have very few memories of it at all. The most of the memories of my father when he decided he wanted to reclaim his children.

[Ryan Sickler]

When was that?

[John Ameche]

This was probably 6 through 11. So very much in the early years and every once in a while we would be shift off to.

[Ryan Sickler]

To him?

[John Ameche]

No, no, to stay with what we call our aunties, but they were just friends of my mum's and we'd end up staying with them for a couple of days and that was because he was coming. He was coming to talk to her and so she would have those. Oh, I see.

[Ryan Sickler]

He's coming to have a talk with mom about, Hey, I want to get back in on this. And mom's like, let me get the kids over here while he and I have that. I see.

[John Ameche]

Okay. I spent lots of my primary school years, that's like through 11, not being able to leave past the end of the road because it was always this nebulous fear that my father would be in the country.

[Ryan Sickler]

Look at that.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

You guys have like a restraining order. You guys can't go. Certain.

[John Ameche]

I did it once. I took my bike and I just went with the local kids and we drove around and I was out for a couple hours three Hours. I came back to the police.

[Ryan Sickler]

Really.

[John Ameche]

So that's how serious my mother was about it.

[Ryan Sickler]

So he was local enough that he was not.

[John Ameche]

He was. No. We didn't know if he was in America or he was in England or if he was in Nigeria, but we. And that was part of the danger. We just didn't know where he was.

[Ryan Sickler]

And was mom worried that he was going to take you? Is that what she was?

[John Ameche]

Yeah, that's what his visits to negotiate were always about.

[Ryan Sickler]

I see.

[John Ameche]

And.

[Ryan Sickler]

Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Not just I live down the street, I want to co parent, I want my kids.

[John Ameche]

He didn't want to co parent. He just wanted us as accessories. I think, you know, one of those parents who doesn't realize that you've got to invest in your kids. You can't just own them.

[Ryan Sickler]

And, and are you on Team mom for this?

[John Ameche]

Oh, yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

During it, you know, you're not like, I want that. Okay.

[John Ameche]

Oh, no, no. There's no part of it.

[Ryan Sickler]

All three of you are like, we know what's up. Okay.

[John Ameche]

Yeah. We left in the night for a reason and we didn't know what that reason. I was the only one probably old enough to remember it, but there was zero chance that I was gonna say, oh yeah, let's find out about this, man.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay, so now you're, you're, you're in an all female household. Single mom, two sisters. What? Where in London?

[John Ameche]

No, we were in Manchester, still.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay. Manchester still?

[John Ameche]

Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

And how old are you now?

[John Ameche]

Probably.

[Ryan Sickler]

Well, no, no, right, Today.

[John Ameche]

Today, sorry. Yeah, now I'm 55.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay. We're about the same age. So what. Where in the are you finding the NBA? You're in a all female household in Manchester, not in the States. And, and you're growing up like I grew up. So you're just coming into that 1980s, you said we.

[John Ameche]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

What's where. What. What the hell finds you?

[John Ameche]

So there used to be. Well, the reality is before, before I was approached on the street, I didn't know that basketball existed. I literally, I was walking down the street in Manchester. I was going to the central library. It was one of my favorite things to do. I am a nerd. I love books. And I was going to library. You could find library books. They were free. And I would grab books. I would grab pies from a local bakery and that would be a good day right there. Pies.

[Ryan Sickler]

Read a book, bro.

[John Ameche]

That does.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

I've never had that much. I've never put those.

[John Ameche]

A book in one hand with greasy fingerprints. I'm sure every book I ever handled just has greasy paw prints on it. Right. Oh man. But I loved it right this side. So I was walking down, it's called Market street, which is the main shopping street in Manchester, and some bloke came up to me and just said, it's really interesting. What? He didn't say. He didn't say, you should play basketball. Cause I would have been like, books, pie? No thanks. And he didn't say, you know the kind of implication that all I'm good for is playing basketball. He said, you'd be great at basketball. And it was literally the first time outside of my family that I'd ever heard anybody tell me I'd be great at anything.

[Ryan Sickler]

And how tall are you then?

[John Ameche]

Probably I was 17, so probably 6 foot 8.

[Ryan Sickler]

When, when do you hit that growth spurt?

[John Ameche]

Oh, I didn't. No, no, no. You gradually grew enormous baby, enormous toddler, enormous teenager.

[Ryan Sickler]

You were just always big, enormous.

[John Ameche]

And I was also big and fat. It's just a battle I've had my entire life right this. But I was big and fat. So I wasn't like a tall, skinny 6 foot 8. I was a chunker.

[Ryan Sickler]

Was. Were there. Was there organized like basketball in your high school and stuff? Oh, no, no, no.

[John Ameche]

So no, I went to a grammar school in England. So that is. I don't know what.

[Ryan Sickler]

Imagine they'.

[John Ameche]

Well, no, no, because grammar schools are. They're like. They are not private schools, but they're posh fee paying school schools. So I went to a grammar school. We wore a uniform, school uniform that was gold and. Sorry, black coats with gold braid. It was that kind of school. I see. And that school had a. They were so posh that they didn't play football. There was only two. Yeah, there was only two sports you could play there for. For boys and that was rugby or lacrosse.

[Ryan Sickler]

Really? Lacrosse. Random early back then too. You know, I grew up in Maryland and that's a big lacrosse. The whole East. You know, my daughter's learned right now, she's like, you know, what sport the Native Americans played? I said, lacrosse. She goes, how do you know? I said, we learned that in Maryland. And it's why it makes sense like that Part of the. When I first moved out here to California, very few people there might have been a club team here or there. And now there's a shitload of lacrosse everywhere. So that's in the 80s.

[John Ameche]

It was in actually a hotbed of lacrosse. I don't. I cannot explain to you why, but it is I played not for any other reason than I thought. This is a sport that I can be so bad at that I won't be mandated to play it anymore.

[Ryan Sickler]

Six foot eight ass is coming at somebody in lacrosse, you're like Jim Brown.

[John Ameche]

I was in goal.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

They were like, get in there and block everything.

[John Ameche]

I went at this sport from the perspective of how can I not do this in a year's time?

[Ryan Sickler]

I see.

[John Ameche]

How can I be so bad that all I have to do is like regular pee. I don't have to do anything additional sport. So I stood in goal, I got pelted by those very, very heavy rubber balls and I was like, this is a small price to pay for not doing this.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay.

[John Ameche]

And then probably two or three years later, my. My school forced me to play rugby. They did. They essentially said, you have to play rugby. So I played rugby for a short while. I was not good at it, nor did I enjoy it. And then I discovered basketball. This book asked me if I. If, if. If told me that'd be great today.

[Ryan Sickler]

Guy that says that random dude says that to you. Isn't that wild?

[John Ameche]

It is.

[Ryan Sickler]

Someone in your life just comes by. So they talk about all the time people here for. What is it, a season, a reason or some.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

I can't remember what is that guy just went.

[Ryan Sickler]

You.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

You'd be great at this.

[John Ameche]

Was that. He did.

[Ryan Sickler]

He still didn't know.

[John Ameche]

He is.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

You don't even know who he is.

[Ryan Sickler]

An American.

[John Ameche]

No, no. Is a Brit. And what I do know is that probably 10 different people, especially just at the point where I went to America for university actually and start to get notoriety in basketball communities for that in the uk that was when the point these people came out the woodwork. I was the person because I told the story. So I was the person. And none of these people were the person. I don't know who it was, but it's none of the people they're all trying to claim. All jumping on it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

So then what makes you say, you know what? Maybe I'm going to give that a shot. And how do you do that in Manchester?

[John Ameche]

So I got details of a club that plays that at a. It's just like a little local club they were called. They were named after the local shop and the local shop was called Shop Local. So. So. So the team was called the Shop Local Basketball Club. There you go. It was amazing. And I went along there and I walked.

[Ryan Sickler]

So there were enough people. I'm sorry to interrupt. People.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

But there were enough kids Interested that we.

[John Ameche]

It was a little sport, right? So it's an undergr. But much like in this country, underground sports still have. They've got lots of people doing it. It's just not recognized. There's no facilities. So we were just in a random gym with a backboard slapped right on the wall, Right? So no separation. An ankle killer. Every single time you went for a layup.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

Oh, it's just up?

[John Ameche]

Well, yeah, it's just you're slapped on the wall, right? So you are going for a layup and you end up halfway into the wall. God forbid you're doing a full on fast break. Running down because you're not stopping in time. But it was. It was crazy. But I walked into that gym the first time, and I'd never touched a basketball. And I walked in, I stooped under the door, and I stood up and everything stopped. It's like just one random basketball. Bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce. Dribbling off into the corner. And then they all ran towards me. I was like, what? What is this? And they were like, he's on our team. And I was like, that felt amazing. It's like, I'm doing this. Even though I didn't know what I was doing. I had to tell them I didn't know what I was doing because I felt bad about it. I was like, you realize I've never played this. It doesn't matter. I was like, that's amazing too. And then I took my first shot and it missed by three feet. They said, shoot it. And I realized it was only at that point when I realized, I don't know what that means. What does shoot it mean? They put that in there. So I threw it up. Missed by three feet. Some kid on the floor, not on my team, on the other side of the scrimmage was like, that was his first shot and he only missed by three feet. Now, as a psychologist, you know that's called a growth mindset, right? The idea of looking at failure and seeing the positive of it. But I was like, where else can I be where people can watch my abject failure and frame it as something positive? And I was like, I'm never leaving this place. I'm never leaving this place. Yeah. And then rice.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

Even my failures are. Are adored here.

[John Ameche]

I'm sat with these K kids at the end of a practice and it's. You know, Manchester is famous for its rain. It's just tipping it down outside. I'm sat with these kids and they're talking about the NBA. I was like, what's the NBA. They said, it's the best league in the world. It's in America. And my head just was. I was like, I know America. A team. Knight Rider America. And one thing I knew from those shows is the sun always shines. So my initial thought and the reason I wanted to play in the NBA was I thought, what if I could feel like this, but the sun would be shining? I was like. So I told them all, yeah, I'm gonna play in the NBA.

[Ryan Sickler]

Day one.

[John Ameche]

Day one. After 45 minutes worth of practice and missing, I don't know if I made a shot. Cause I only remember that I missed a lot of shots.

[Ryan Sickler]

Let me ask you this. What did your first dunk feel like? Did that feel as good as ducking under that door and walking in and seeing everything when you realized, oh, I don't need to. This doesn't need to leave my hand. I can just do this.

[John Ameche]

I mean, I'm. I. My first dunk felt. You know what? This is what I thought. I was like, that was a huge amount of effort to still be two points because I'm not a good athlete, right?

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

Think about it. When you're flying from the Jordan's, flying from the foul line, that should be like. That should be. It's the same as me standing right here and doing this. Yeah, it's a great point.

[John Ameche]

Listen, I know, I know lots of my. My teammates were amazing athletes. So when they did it, there was something special and hypey about it. When I did it, it was the most fundamental and dullest of things. Right. But also it took a huge amount of effort for me. So if it took, I don't know, 100 calories for me to do a layup, it took me 10,000 calories to do a dunk. Which is why there are so few dunks. Right. A, I'm a bad athlete, but B, it was just too energy expensive. So even when I could, when I was in the league and starting in Orlando, it's like my heyday. As much as I had one, I was playing really well. We were playing against whatever team had Chris Webber on it at the time. And I don't remember Sacramento could have been. I think it might have even been before then, but I'm not sure. And I. The previous game had done a reverse, like, under the basket dunk that had literally made my teammates jaws drop. And I didn't know either. I couldn't explain how it happened. But I tried again the second. That next game, and I got fouled. But I Missed the dunk. And my teammates come up to me and they were like, no, no, you don't dunk. I had another. It was in the nicest possible way. They were just like, come on, John. You know that's not you. And they're right. I lay the ball up. That's what I do. We had a game. We had a game where a new player joined the team during. After. Just before the trade deadline. And Anthony, I think his name was. And we were on the fast break, and he threw up an alley oop for me. I have never, ever, ever caught an alley oop.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's your first one?

[John Ameche]

No, no, no. That was not my first. No. The ball sailed up and luckily one of the opponents tipped it. Little did they know, if they hadn't tipped it, it would have been just. It would have been their ball. And Ben Wallace and a couple of other players was like, you can hear it on the audio of the game. I've actually got it. The audio of the game. You can hear them just going, that's John Ameche. That's John Ameche. As in, you don't throw an alley oop. And they're right. You don't throw an alley oop. To me, it's not. That's not my thing. It's not going to happen.

[Ryan Sickler]

Oh, I have so many questions for you. Okay. So is mom supportive of this?

[John Ameche]

She was incredibly supportive. Of what? Something she didn't understand.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's what I'm saying. Like, this is a sport I don't even know. And you got to go over there, you got to leave to go do this.

[John Ameche]

The thing I loved about what she did was that I don't know how many rational, even supportive parents would listen to their son say, I didn't tell her immediately after this practice, but I kind of planned it out. And then I came to her one evening when she was just resting in a bed, and I said, I need to tell you I don't know where I'm going to go to university, which was my approach. And she said, well, there's Leeds and there's Manchester and there's even London. Because London was a far. It was far away for us. Not in American terms, but in Britain, it felt far. And I said, I don't know what country I go. And I remember she turned the radio off and she says, what do you mean? And I said, yeah, I'm planning on going to the mba. That means I'm going to go from here. I'm going to go to America for university Get a scholarship, very easy. And then I'm going to be drafted into the mba. And she said to me something that still to this day feels frustrating when I think about it. She said, would you recognize your soul in the dark as the 17 year old, I was like, what the hell are you talking about? Were atheists for starters. And she went into this diatribe about how the things that I'm not willing to address about myself will get in the way. And we acknowledged over the next couple of weeks, I'm fundamentally lazy. I'm a fat kid for a reason. I like pie, I like books, I like sitting. I don't like sweating. I have never once.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

I like sweating.

[John Ameche]

I have never once had, you know that, what's it called? The runner's high.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah, listen, me either.

[John Ameche]

I have never had it.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

I don't even know what they're talking about. They just hit a thing where I. I've never.

[John Ameche]

I have never experienced that. I've experienced the soreness the day after exercise. Never experienced the runner's high. And it's amazing. That's part of the reason why I made it to the league is I was willing to acknowledge the fact that I'm fundamentally lazy. And given a choice between easy option and hard option, this bloke will take easy option every single time.

[Ryan Sickler]

And NBA was easier than what? Then what was the other option?

[John Ameche]

NBA wasn't. It's not that it's easy, it's just that because I knew that I'd take the easy option. I knew that I need rigidity, I need to become obedient to a schedule. Right.

[Ryan Sickler]

So you're saying, you're agreeing that, that this military approach is like, I need a little ass whooping, I need to get in shape here.

[John Ameche]

Okay. And this is what's required. This amount of practice, this amount of stretching, this amount, whatever else, plus the.

[Ryan Sickler]

School you have to go to college for, where do you go?

[John Ameche]

I went to Penn State. I went to Vanderbilt for one year first.

[Ryan Sickler]

Did you get a scholarship?

[John Ameche]

I got a scholarship.

[Ryan Sickler]

How is a kid over in Manchester who's never even played this damn game, by the way, what age are you when you finally do do this?

[John Ameche]

We start when I start. It's high school. So no, I went. I was in high school as in, we have a different system. But Yeah, I was 17 through my last two years of school.

[Ryan Sickler]

You didn't even play basketball until 17?

[John Ameche]

No. No.

[Ryan Sickler]

Made it to the NBA?

[John Ameche]

Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's incredible. That's even more incredible.

[John Ameche]

It is incredibly rare. There is me in the list.

[Ryan Sickler]

Tell me.

[John Ameche]

Yeah, there's me in the list of people who've done that.

[Ryan Sickler]

So now I understand what you're saying. You had said you're the only player in the history of the NBA to start playing at 17 and then make.

[John Ameche]

It to the league in six years.

[Ryan Sickler]

In six years.

[John Ameche]

In a short amount of time.

[Ryan Sickler]

And so I was saying, what about Kobe? But Kobe didn't start at seven. Kobe was playing. Since he's this big. Yeah, LeBron, I see what you mean. You didn't touch a basketball player.

[John Ameche]

I mean, in fairness, you could also. We can acknowledge the fact that they were. They became unbelievably brilliant athletes. So I think the distance they traveled, even with, you know, the age that they started, is pretty remarkable.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah, but still, you're so. You're a history maker right there. You're the only.

[John Ameche]

The one, I think, in the way that it matters. Right. Because that was due to choices. I got to America by going to. I went to London with my mum on the bus, and we went to a place called the Fulbright Commission, which has a list of high schools in America. And we got. We bought books with lists of high schools in. And we went through and put a pen in and was like, oh, we'll contact this school in Roanoke, Virginia. We'll contact this school.

[Ryan Sickler]

Did you stay east coast on purpose? No, no, it wasn't so far.

[John Ameche]

I had no concept of how big America was.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay.

[John Ameche]

I had no. I arrived in America, I had no concept of how big this place is. None at all. I didn't even realize until I got to America that most Americans don't speak English. It was a revelation to me. I arrived in Toledo, Ohio, and again, my coach there, Ed Heidenschall, best person in the world, wouldn't have made it without him, but couldn't understand a word he said. I arrived. It was so hot because I arrived in the summer before the year started. I'd never experienced heat like that. We don't have air. Well, we do now, but at that stage in England, we didn't have air conditioning. I arrived, I was freezing cold inside every building, burning up outside of. I was like, I'm in an alien land right now. And people talk to me and have no idea what they're talking about. I would ask for water and get orange juice. It's just like. It was an amazing acculturation period where I just nodded and smiled at people for about six months.

[Ryan Sickler]

So how are you keeping in touch with mom and everything while you're over There. Are you going back at all or you're just here now? That's what.

[John Ameche]

I could come for the year and then leave at the end of the year, go home for the summer and that was it. And that. But that was it for us in terms of that. The only option then was I could leave one more time if I got a scholarship. So the high school was the period to get the scholarship. Amazing. Amazing support I got from the school, actually.

[Ryan Sickler]

So how many high school years did you do here? Just the one senior year.

[John Ameche]

Yeah. Yeah, just did my senior year.

[Ryan Sickler]

And just one year at that Ohio school, you get a scholarship.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

Full ride.

[Ryan Sickler]

Full ride to where?

[John Ameche]

To Van.

[Ryan Sickler]

Vanderbilt.

[John Ameche]

A school that I picked, by the way, because it. I used a computer program to look at where the best psychology programs. And I picked a very particular type of school that was a bad school in a good conference because I knew I wasn't good enough to play in. Because I wanted to play for Duke, right? That's where I wanted to play.

[Ryan Sickler]

Everybody wants to play for Duke, but.

[John Ameche]

I knew that I really need to set my science at Northwestern or Vanderbilt. And not because they're bad, it's just that they're not the top schools in their conferences, but their conferences are great. And if I want to play in the NBA, I've got to be in a great conference. So that's why I picked it. Unfortunately, I got there and my coach had very different ideas. He told me and my roommate, a guy called Matt Maloney, he told us both that we were Division 3 players. And so we left after a year and he went to Penn, I went to Penn State and we both ended up in the league.

[Ryan Sickler]

You both did?

[John Ameche]

Yeah. He won a championship with Houston.

[Ryan Sickler]

Where's that guy? Where's the coach that told you this?

[John Ameche]

He ended up. I met him my last couple of years in the league because he was a scout for the Utah Jazz while I was there.

[Ryan Sickler]

Did you say something?

[John Ameche]

No, we never spoke. Did he remember to practice a few times?

[Ryan Sickler]

He remembered your ass.

[John Ameche]

We never spoke.

[Ryan Sickler]

A scout remembers everybody.

[John Ameche]

I know. He didn't remember me, apparently. Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

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[John Ameche]

Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

At. How old was she?

[John Ameche]

She was 50.

[Ryan Sickler]

She's young. What happened?

[John Ameche]

She died of cancer.

[Ryan Sickler]

Did you know this was coming or.

[John Ameche]

I did, indeed.

[Ryan Sickler]

Were you able to go see her?

[John Ameche]

Yeah, she had. I remember when she first was diagnosed and then she went through treatment and then she was fine in the. At least as much as a kid would understand. And then I was in America when she called me, which was rare because phone calls back then to America, to Britain, were very expensive. And she called me and I, I remember crying on the phone and she tells me she's got cancer again. I ended up going back in the summer to see her very briefly because I still had to come back for school. And then she got very, very sick just around Christmas. And I remember we. I don't remember which game we were playing, but I remember we played a Game. It was pre season, prebec 10 season. We beat whoever it was. We had a press conference where I had to sit there and tell everybody I'm going home and I'll be missing the next game because my mother has cancer. And they did. They only wanted me to miss one game. So they flew me back on Concord.

[Ryan Sickler]

Right, the Concorde. We've talked. I know this is crazy.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

I've never met a human being that actually flew on the Concorde. Some people think it was a myth.

[John Ameche]

Especially a brassic, you know, totally poor college student.

[Ryan Sickler]

So you're flying out of Vanderbilt. I mean, from your.

[John Ameche]

This was Penn State. Because I transferred you out. Okay, I was at Penn State, so.

[Ryan Sickler]

And they're flying you. Who's they?

[John Ameche]

The school. The school is. I finished the game. It was hardship measures. Things like your mother dying. Apparently even the NCAA softens up a little bit. So I. I was flown. I was driven from Penn State to jfk. I got there at, I don't know, one in the morning or something. Airport's empty. I sleep on a. On a. Such an. The opposite experience that you might expect to have before going on Concorde. I'm sleeping on a bunch of benches, waiting for morning to come so I can then wait for afternoon to come. I don't think I even went to a lounge or anything, but when it was time, I went to the Concorde. Here I am dressed in Penn State sweats. I'm pretty sure they didn't expect me to have a ticket, but I had the little paper ticket, remember back in the day, the carbon copy underneath it thing? So I had.

[Ryan Sickler]

I remember back in the day, I.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

Had to go to the airport to.

[Ryan Sickler]

Get my damn ticket for a flight that I wasn't taking that day.

[John Ameche]

Really?

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah. You had to go to the airport back in the day. You could go get it.

[John Ameche]

Thank God for technology, at least in that dimension. So, yeah, I got on the plane. It was tiny. You know that Concorde is tiny.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah, tell me about it. Because what was the flight time? I mean, it's.

[John Ameche]

It's 2 hours 48 or something like that. It is tiny. It was.

[Ryan Sickler]

Is it private jet size?

[John Ameche]

I don't. I don't know, because I've. I don't. I've. I've been on NBA private jets, but they're massive planes.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay?

[John Ameche]

So I'm not sure, but I know it was. I couldn't stand up in it. Right. You could. No, no, no. So I was like this in it.

[Ryan Sickler]

How many seats you.

[John Ameche]

It's four. It's two and two. Two very nice leather seats. But two and two, four total on either sides of an aisle. So two there, two there's. And then back, back, back all the way. But it's the same seat everywhere in the. In the plane. It comes with this little bag. I've still gotten to this day. I've also got the salt and pepper because it's little silver. Salt and pepper and then silver dice. Oh, that's cool. That came in a little leather bag. I know it's silver because they've tarnished like silver. So at least it's silver plated. I've still got them too. I've also got the one from the seat next to me which is unoccupied. So I stole that.

[Ryan Sickler]

Is it. What does it. Do you feel that speed you remember? Like, does it take off different? Like not to sound bougie, but I've been fortunate enough to be on some comedians private jets and the first time I was on it, I had no idea. It doesn't grab this son of a. Just. Yeah.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

Like it went up and I was like, holy.

[Ryan Sickler]

We're not. And we're banking like this. We're not taking a slow gradual term with 300 souls on board. You know, like it was man. I was like, whoa. The.

[John Ameche]

There is in the cabin a Mac counter so that you can see the speed that the plane is going. But the pilot came on the intercom after we'd taken off. Is it. You know that pilot voice that all of them have. And so just want to let you know that we're about to move into a cruising speed. You might feel a little push just like that. Never forget it. And so I sit back and it's like. It's not a little push. It's like a. It's like a kick. But it was just incredibly exciting and daunting. And I was in this in the middle of like, I should be really excited about this but I feel guilty because I'm coming back to see my mum who's very unwell. And it was that weird mixture of things.

[Ryan Sickler]

It's also great. You went from JFK to London to.

[John Ameche]

London, then had to go from London to Manchester.

[Ryan Sickler]

But that's. That's a flight that time is from here to Seattle.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

That's insane. Insane. That thing's hauling ass.

[John Ameche]

It was amazing.

[Ryan Sickler]

So you get there and you get to see mom and spend time with Mom. Are you. Do they expect you to come? Oh, no, no.

[John Ameche]

I was. I had a flight back. I had a regular commercial flight it was like five days later. It was. I could miss one game. That's all I could miss. So maybe it was three, three days later. But I was there. I saw her. She promised me that she would be all right until the next time I saw her. And she was all right until the next time I saw her. I. I left school early that year because she died during the school year. And so I missed a bunch of classes. I had a. Absolutely. What a dickhead. I can't remember his name. I wish I could because I'd like to shame him. He was a teacher who did like the exercise science stuff. And, you know, you've got to take like baseball or one of these classes. Right. And I took something like that. Baseball, something like that. And I missed that class. Every other class I had that I missed gave me a grade based on how I'd been doing in the class.

[Ryan Sickler]

Up to that point. Sure.

[John Ameche]

And most of them were. I was a four point student as a student. Right. So I wasn't a bad student. He failed me that class. It's the only fail. Yeah. Yeah. It's the only class that I failed in college was the class that he failed because I failed to show up because I was at home with my mother who was dying and died actually during the sea. During that school year.

[Ryan Sickler]

Were you. Did you get to see her?

[John Ameche]

I got to see her for two days before she died. Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

You did. Did she know at that point it was common like.

[John Ameche]

Yeah. Was it? Yeah. It's one of the. The sad parts about that particular type of. Type of cancer. And also at that time where the treatments weren't as advanced, you. Your body deteriorates a remarkable amount.

[Ryan Sickler]

What kind of cancer did she have?

[John Ameche]

She had breast cancer.

[Ryan Sickler]

Breast cancer.

[John Ameche]

Cancer, yeah. So the last part that kind of holds on is your mind. And she was. Because she was solution focused, kind of amazing. Mom was making sure that we're all settled and set, and that's what she did in the last few days.

[Ryan Sickler]

And how old are you at that point when she passes and you're what I was.

[John Ameche]

That was the end of my junior year in Penn state, which was 19. Is that 1992? 93. 93 probably. So that would make me 22 years old. Something like that.

[Ryan Sickler]

So now Mom's gone.

[John Ameche]

Yep.

[Ryan Sickler]

You're on your own in the States. I hear you. But you got teammates. You at least have some.

[John Ameche]

Some teammates.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's nice.

[John Ameche]

High school coach still in touch. Still really supportive. Bruce Parkhill, my head coach, who is a man I considered a Stoic, right. The only emotion he showed was rage when we messed up. And he was unbelievably supportive, like properly compassionate. Something I did not expect from him but was amazing. I mean the Penn State family, for all the struggles that Penn State has had since they took care of me.

[Ryan Sickler]

So now you're getting drafted into the NBA?

[John Ameche]

Oh hell no.

[Ryan Sickler]

No, you're not getting drafted. So how do you make it to the league out of Penn State?

[John Ameche]

I didn't do anything. Was not. I was really disappointed. I wasn't invited to many of the pre draft camps that you just have to be invited to. I went to Portsmouth, which is the initial pre draft camp and I played like shit. I was awful. I wouldn't have drafted me. But after that I didn't get any notes, any letters, any asked to try out or interview, which is what normally happens. So I sat in Toledo with this family watching the draft. And was that back in the day when we had like seven rounds, something like that? I don't know.

[Ryan Sickler]

It was a lot.

[John Ameche]

It was a lot back then. And I was like maybe I'll go in the. And no undrafted. So I had to call my agent. We had to talk about what was going to do. We targeted a couple of places. We picked Cleveland because they were rebuilding Reed. Shit. And maybe somebody like me could end up on that squad. So I, I got into about £30,000 worth of dollars worth of debt by finding a trainer in Phoenix. So I moved to Phoenix. I had a little one bedroom efficiency and paid for this trainer who was my trainer for the rest of my summers then. He was amazing. In order to then get ready for the preseason and the summer camps and the preseason camps and that's what I did. I went to preseason camp with Cleveland. Played really well. It's brutal, man. It was brutal. You know how you realize that you weren't going to be staying the trainer. One of the random trainers or ball boys would come in the locker room while you're all getting change and all the lockers have lovely brass things for the actual players. But they put your name up on, on, on tape, you know like that painter's tape.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[John Ameche]

And so they write your name on painter's tape on there. And so you'd see them come in with a clipboard as you're trying to put your shoes on. And you'd be watching them as they'd come up to a, a locker and they'd be like, you'd be sat in it.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

No. And they're just pulling a Tape above your head. That's ice cold while you're tying your. That's a hell of a way to be cut, man. That is cut.

[John Ameche]

I remember sitting next to a guy. The guy's standing in front of me with the. With the thingy, and he's. He's looking up, and then he's looking up and he goes. And I was like, oh, my God. And it's. It's the worst feeling because you feel joy. And I was gonna say.

[Ryan Sickler]

And the best.

[John Ameche]

Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[John Ameche]

Even as, you know, the person next to you is devastated. I was next. I was next to this Egyptian guy, actually, who'd been, you know, come all the way and was trying to find his way into the league. And cut. Yeah, it was brutal. I ended up. But that was the team that I ended up starting at beginning of year.

[Ryan Sickler]

Cleveland.

[John Ameche]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

So good for you. What made you say, no, I am going to fucking invest in this and do this. What's telling you? All right. I didn't get drafted. I played like. Like what's telling you? Keep going.

[John Ameche]

Too many sacrifices. So I. I was in this. I was in this country. I was in America. While my mother was dying of cancer. There were memories and moments that I could have had with her. Many, many memories and moments. Tons of days, her good days, when we might have gone on a trip and wrapped her up and. And sat by a lake or sat by a river or sat in the countryside or sat in a pub. And I missed all that in order to get to the NBA. So you better believe when she's gone, there's not a chance that I'm gonna. I'm gonna say, oh, well, maybe it wasn't for me. There's just no way. There's no way I am going to play in this league. I'm going to start in this league.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah. That's another thing you started. You're not a guy on the bed. There's a big difference. Not a guy on the bench. You're starting five.

[John Ameche]

Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

For the Cleveland Cavaliers.

[John Ameche]

At least for the first six games. We were terrible. We lost our first six games.

[Ryan Sickler]

Cleveland was terrible.

[John Ameche]

We lost our first six games. I was terrible.

[Ryan Sickler]

What position were you playing?

[John Ameche]

I was power forward or center, depending on what the needs were. Right. And not. I'm not an oversized center. Right. I'm just about power forward. But we lost. We had a. One of my. I think my first game, and this was even before the season started. It was a. A preseason game when the league used to take you to random cities. We Were in Kansas City playing the Chicago Bulls. The 90s Chicago Bulls. You're playing against Jordan, Jordan Pippen, all of that lot. My first shot is an easy wide open layup that is blocked into the stands by Scottie Pippen, who, as he stands over to me, says, welcome to the league. I scored 12 points in that game and we got our ass kicked. And I was fucking jubilant.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

I was gonna say, I would be stoked to get 12 on the bulls.

[John Ameche]

On the bus going back to the van, I was just like. I couldn't. I was containing myself because I knew we'd lost and lost by a lot. That wasn't good. But I just sat there like I led the team in scoring. Who thought that anybody would say that a fat British kid from Stockport led the team in scoring? I was like, that's pretty cool.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's another point. How many Brits are in the league at the time?

[John Ameche]

None.

[Ryan Sickler]

None. You're also the first one. Well, maybe not the first, but you're only the only one during your time playing there.

[John Ameche]

There was another guy before me. His tenure was not super long, but he played for. He played for the Lakers. His name is Steve Bucknell. And so he was. I. I don't know if he was even the first, but he's the first in my memory. So he played for the Lakers. I don't think he. He lasted a season, but still remarkable, then end up playing across Europe. I played with him. He was a teammate of mine when we played for England in international competition. But I'm certainly the first one to have a career. The first Brit to have a career in the NBA, which is cool.

[Ryan Sickler]

Now, I want to talk to you about this because you're also. Am I. Correct me if I'm wrong. You're not. Are you the first openly gay out NBA player?

[John Ameche]

That is correct.

[Ryan Sickler]

That is correct.

[John Ameche]

That is correct.

[Ryan Sickler]

You got a lot of firsts, bro.

[John Ameche]

You know, you want to lead an interesting life, right?

[Ryan Sickler]

All right, so let's rewind a little bit here to being a gay man. When are you. When do you realizing that this is who you are?

[John Ameche]

11.

[Ryan Sickler]

11? You went right to 11. Why? What happens at 11?

[John Ameche]

Oh, nothing in particular. I just knew before that even my mother told me about, like I. I had a friend called Paul. And I distinctly remember my mother talking to me about the time I came to her and said, you know, this is my friend Paul. And I said, actually, he's more than a friend. And I. Obviously I was a kid at the. Very young kid at the Time. I don't think it was a sexual thing, but certainly spoke to the depth of the relationship. So she was fairly convinced that I was gay from a very early age. Anyway. I don't think it came as a super shocker to anybody who knows me very well. So, yeah, it was. But 11 I knew, and then 11 I knew that it was a bad thing, because all you have to do is walk out on the streets and realize how people talk about it. It was the middle of the kind of the LGBT scare. I remember being, you know, a teenager having absolutely no sexual contact with anybody, but being totally convinced that I was going to get AIDS at some point.

[Ryan Sickler]

Well, let me tell you something. As a straight, heterosexual boy in high school, I. I was convinced I was gonna get it. They convinced everyone that we were all gonna get AIDS if we even. Like, we were terrified. No one knew anything about it then. And it was all fear, fear, fear. Even to the point when magic players that didn't want to play against them.

[John Ameche]

Yeah. Even as a player that I worry.

[Ryan Sickler]

With Sweat bump, you know. Nonsense. Nonsense.

[John Ameche]

Yeah. It was crazy. It was crazy.

[Ryan Sickler]

So. Yeah.

[John Ameche]

And disappointing.

[Ryan Sickler]

It's a wild time. And you're a gay man and you're in the league, and when do you decide who. Who do you confide in?

[John Ameche]

So tons of people. I mean, the thing that I would.

[Ryan Sickler]

In the league, I mean.

[John Ameche]

Yeah. No. Tons of people.

[Ryan Sickler]

People. Okay.

[John Ameche]

Just. It isn't. It isn't. Being out to everyone in the stands is not how most people are out. So even now, I'll meet people who have no idea about my backstory because they know me as the psychologist who works with them or their company, and.

[Ryan Sickler]

They don't even know you play in the league.

[John Ameche]

Oh, God, no. No. I had a.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

That's wild.

[John Ameche]

A client the other day who's the CEO of a very, very large company in Europe. So just enormous. Right on par with some of the tech companies over here. And he came up to me and said, why didn't you tell me? I said, why didn't I tell you What? I'm very transparent with you about everything that's going on in the organization. He said, no, I just found out you played in the league. I was like, yeah, I didn't think it was relevant, so I didn't tell you. And that. So that's really common for my experience now. Lots of people have no idea I played because I'm of an age. Don't forget, I played in the league before the kind of social media age, too. So there was no magnification. In the uk, if you're a big fan of the NBA, you might have known that I played. But nowadays, even kids, I walk past.

[Ryan Sickler]

You're right. All you had back then was like, sports center.

[John Ameche]

Yeah. I walk past parks now and there's. There's kids in America, in Britain, who have no idea. There they are playing basketball and I walk through and it's like I'm one of a rare number of NBA players. Yes, you are, but from the, from the country anyway. And I have no idea. I think it's kind of cool. You like the radar? Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

What? Okay, so when you get going into the league, I was wanting to talk to you a little bit about that out there. Are you terrified that this, you know, is going to come out, you're going to be, you know, targeted, or any of the, you know, back backlash in any way? Are you worried about that?

[John Ameche]

I wasn't initially. Because initially I just had no life. Right. I just put my personal life in a box under the bed and it stayed.

[Ryan Sickler]

You weren't dating anyone, seeing anyone at all?

[John Ameche]

Hell no. No, no, no. I'd had a few flirtations when I was in college and I was more worried then. But when I got to the league, I was a. It wasn't even a question of Penn State.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

You were the least of their worries.

[John Ameche]

Right. I.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

Now you look back, you're like, I was fine.

[John Ameche]

I was absolutely fine compared to other people getting on with shenanigans. Yeah, it's true. But yeah, once, once I got to league, it just was. I wasn't good enough to not put my entire focus on playing. It's just the reality. I'm a 70 out of 100 NBA player. I'm still better than anybody listening to this podcast unless they played in the NBA. But 70. And so I just couldn't allow myself to focus on anything else because it just wouldn't. I wouldn't be any good. I wouldn't be able to do my job. So I didn't drink much. I didn't, you know, Dan Marley got me wasted before a game once, but. And I did not play well. But other than that, I was really focused on just doing that. It was only when I got, you know, to Orlando probably, which is after a few years in Europe where I did date a few people while I was in Europe. When I got to Orlando, I realized how lonely it is and how ironic it is to be a really good player starting for your team, contributing, well known by everybody in Orlando at least, and to be Completely alone on purpose. It's like this is incredibly lonely and it feels unjust. And then you realize that there's a different set of rules for other people who, while they may not be gay people, what they're doing is having a wife and then a flirtation on the road or something else. It's like they can have these lives that other people might consider amoral. But I can't have a life that other people might consider amoral. I do not, obviously. But yeah, so it was a lonely time point.

[Ryan Sickler]

Like this guy can cheat and do whatever and it's immoral, but it's okay because it's this heterosexual thing.

[John Ameche]

Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

And we're. Yeah.

[John Ameche]

Not, Not a flicker from a fan when you've got somebody who's ab. Their partner. Not a flicker for a fan when you've got somebody who's, I don't know, run a dog killing ring.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[John Ameche]

But the speculation around who's gay. And again, I reiterate, there's tons of gay people.

[Ryan Sickler]

This is my favorite thing. I sit and do the math in my head all the time and I laugh at the absurdity. There are 52 men, Alpha men on 30 football teams.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

You're telling me not one of those guys is gay?

[Ryan Sickler]

I can't wait for someone who really like comes out and is just like over the top with it. That's what I really want. I want like somebody like a Ray Lewis to come out and be like, I sucked five dicks last night.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

We're gonna go you up today. You know what I mean? Like I, I can't wait for that. It's coming, it's coming down the line. Not sure it's coming down the line.

[John Ameche]

Sure. The sentiment I think in this country is, is pushing against that.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[John Ameche]

But I would, I would just like, like if, if people could react with more normaly about it. Right. The idea that someone has a partner, that partner makes them happy and be done with it.

[Ryan Sickler]

Also, as a, as a fan, okay. This is my team, this is my guy. I don't give a what you doing the off court as long as it ain't you on the court. If you're drinking and driving and getting arrested, I got a problem with it. If you're three, four, five women, assaulting, etc. You know what I mean? I got a problem with it. I'm a fan of you. This is what I like. I don't give a what you're doing over there. I don't care if you have 14 kid, whatever. Just keep it on the court. That's all I care about. Why do we care about it? All these baseball.

[John Ameche]

We only care about it with men.

[Ryan Sickler]

Hockey. That's right. That's right.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

We know what the WNBA is all about.

[Ryan Sickler]

But the hockey, those guys, they're tight ends on skates, each other up. And I know they're gay men in the league. Of course there are.

[John Ameche]

Of course the.

[Ryan Sickler]

The math doesn't matter.

[John Ameche]

The good part is that I think there's many of them living happy lives where the people who they care about, the one or two coaches, the one or two trainers, the one or two teammates, or sometimes more than that, who they. Who are they actually have built friendships with, become part of that life. And those who haven't, don't. And that's normal.

[Ryan Sickler]

And they're not running to tell TMZs and everything. So you have your allies. Yeah.

[John Ameche]

Do you got people that you care about, who you tell stuff, and people who you don't know who. It's weird to tell stuff. On the converse. If, if you really thought about it, if I just walked up to random people in an airport, said, hi, gay, it would be very weird, right? It'd be a really odd way to start a conversation. You would expect to warm into that, right?

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

Yeah, a little bit.

[John Ameche]

You know, maybe if they. We have a conversation about your partner, and I figure I find out that's a woman, and. And so we're talking about your wife and. And then you ask me about my partner, and I say partner, and then we see where that goes. Cause that's what you do. I'm gonna say partner first, just in case you're one of those people who's gonna lose their mind. So I'm just gonna use partner. Cause it's nice neutral language. It honors my partner and doesn't make him feel awful, but at the same time protects me from people who, especially in this country, have guns and aren't afraid to use them.

[Ryan Sickler]

So at what point do you come out?

[John Ameche]

2,000. Well, if you're talking about to the world, 2,007. But I was effectively out during my Utah years.

[Ryan Sickler]

Where is 2000? Are you still playing in seven in the league when you come out?

[John Ameche]

I was out. I. I retired in 2000. End of 2005. Beginning in 2006. And then.

[Ryan Sickler]

So what makes you come out and say that? Why do you. Why did you feel the need to say, this is who I am?

[John Ameche]

Oh, I didn't at all. I tell you. No, no, no, no. I. I left. I didn't want to at All I left America. I remember it was New Year's Eve. I knew I'd been traded to New York. I knew I wasn't going to New York. No offense, New Yorkers. I just, I was so tired. You just, I'm sure people have had this with their regular jobs where they just sit and think, I'm done with this now. I'm done with this. My body really hurts as. And that legacy has continued. And I was like, I'm just done with this. And so I just, I said thank you to the coach, JBG Jeff Van Gundy, who had called me on my phone. My sisters, my sister was with me. A bunch of other people who were friends were with me in the car. As I got the call on speakerphone, he said, look, I'm really sorry. I just need to let you know you've been traded to New York. You'll be expected to report there in six days. And he said, I really appreciate what you've done with the team. You haven't played an awful lot, but you've been brilliant. In the locker room, I was like, thank you. Really appreciate that. We just sat there in silence as I drove along in Houston. I was like, I'm done. So I retired, finished up, came back to England almost immediately. And I was like, great, I'm done with America, I'm done with that. I'm just going to do my own thing here. And then I went to Manchester Pride and I saw the Grand Marshal Ian McKellen in the back of a pink Cadillac driving through the streets. And I was, I was watching from a distance and I could see this kid in Manchester Cathedral Gardens, like poking his head up behind a tombstone to watch this. So my assumption, a queer kid, not out here. He is watching and then Ian McKellen's doing the wavy, wavy and he waves in our general direction and this kid rises up and waves with both his hands before seeing me and then jetting off. I was like, how cool is that? Imagine having that. I mean, I know I'm not Ian McKellen standard of, of celebrity, right? But imagine if there's somebody who could relate to me more easily than they might relate to Ian McKellen for any number of reasons.

[Ryan Sickler]

Well, yeah.

[John Ameche]

And I thought, well, okay, you're also.

[Ryan Sickler]

What if you're, you know, a big man? You know, when you look at a 6 foot 8 man, most people probably think, think that that's a heterosexual man. He's doing big man man. He's a manly man.

[John Ameche]

I can roundly assure you they do, I'm sure. Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

So I would imagine that you know ian Surrey and McKellen over there as a little tiny dude and you, you know, there's an actor, he's tiny. That's right. There's a lot of men, big, gay, strong ass men that probably really would did benefit from you doing this.

[John Ameche]

Yeah, yeah, I like to think so. And again, I know. So my perspective is, is it's not about quantity because I always think about that kid if there's just one. Because that's enough. Right. You justified the price of pride in Manchester. If one kid rises because of it, I think there's a, there's a lot to that. And so I know there must be one. And that's, that's all I need to know.

[Ryan Sickler]

So then after all this, how does the, how does your being gay get into the media and stuff like that?

[John Ameche]

So then I decided that what I, if I was going to do this, what I needed to do is have everything in one place. What I didn't want to do is to be coming and having people pull their own story together. So it's like I will write a story. Plus, part of me thought that I've always been frustrated by the idea that if my name comes up in America among sports fans, then I am known as the gay sports person rather than something far more interesting and remarkable, which is the idea that I'm the English person who played in the NBA. I'm the English person who started the game at 17 and six years later was starting in the NBA. That is erased by the fact that I happen to be gay. Not something I've had to work on, by the way. And so that's, oh, there's dog, she's coming in. But that's what I wanted to kind of capture if I could. The idea that it, your, your idea of my story is too small. And this is a part of it and an important part of it. It's just part of it. So I started writing a book. We found a publisher. I was working with Howard Bragman, who passed away a few years ago. He's a big PR guy. A lot of people have come out using his support. And so I worked with Howard. He was really amazing, helped me to kind of manage this, going on Fox News, going on NBC morning shows, going on all of this stuff. And yeah, it was, it was tumultuous.

[Ryan Sickler]

In doing, in coming out that way. Did you receive more support than you thought you would or less so?

[John Ameche]

More than I thought I would. I would say that the biggest disappointment of it was, was the biggest excitement was the fact that there was a small but. But concentrated positive groups. So if you think of the interactions I had with human beings, both written, email, personal, interpersonal interactions, 20% were really strongly positive and supportive and probably 5% were really strongly negative. The number of death threats I had was remarkable. The number of people who found my sister's address in Manchester and sent her death threats.

[Ryan Sickler]

Death threats.

[John Ameche]

Remarkable for what? And sent me death threats via her as well. Right. For popularizing gayness. Right. Was the usual narrative. The Tim Hardaway thing where he said he hates gay people. And that just blew up. Right. Everything but the thing that disappointed me most was if you take that 20, you take that five was the 75 in the middle who, who were apathetic, unmoved in a way that didn't allow for any kind of progress. Literally didn't care and didn't care in the kind of way that I think is healthy. Where you say, oh, so you're an immigrant here. Are you working really hard? Great.

[Ryan Sickler]

Moving along.

[John Ameche]

Oh, so you're German. Are you following the laws of this country? Great. That kind of. I don't care. Which I don't think is really, I don't care. It's more embracing, more of, who cares.

[Ryan Sickler]

Who gives a shit?

[John Ameche]

Right.

[Ryan Sickler]

He's doing.

[John Ameche]

That I can live with. But it wasn't that. It was almost like a. This is. I don't want. I'm not ready for this conversation. I'm not ready to be a part of it, so I'm just going to stay out of it. And they thought that was natural.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[John Ameche]

But it wasn't neutral because it allowed that 5% to be incredibly loud.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's what, that's what. A lot of times these days, the, the five, the one we're all listening at, super, super, super minority that we should be just. Just ignoring completely.

[John Ameche]

Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

So you do this and then you go into psychology. And I said to you, your mom was a big reason you went into something.

[John Ameche]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

So you go from the mba. Are you. Were you studying that in school or is that okay. So you were taking.

[John Ameche]

So I studied undergraduate at Penn State Psychology. I started my grad studies in my last year because I transferred and so there's an extra year in there. And I started my grad studies while I was in Penn State, and then I continued the distance education while I played in Lilly League. So it's great.

[Ryan Sickler]

And then you continued, obviously, after you got out.

[John Ameche]

Well, no, by the time I got out I was. Already had a PhD. I was, I was.

[Ryan Sickler]

You did all that while you were playing and everything too.

[John Ameche]

There's a lot of downtime.

[Ryan Sickler]

Damn, dude.

[John Ameche]

I mean it's, it's.

[Ryan Sickler]

I hear you.

[John Ameche]

Look, it sounds better than it does because if you're on a luxury plane with an entire four top table this big to yourself, money enough to have a laptop. My laptop was about that thick. But money enough to have a laptop top and able to type away while somebody brings you the PF Changs that you'd ordered on the ground. Right. It's like, it's. I understand that it takes a commitment to do it and I was tired. Right.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

You could have been in a bad.

[Ryan Sickler]

Gambling or whatever, you know.

[John Ameche]

Listen, the gambling stuff, I don't know what it's like nowadays, so I can't speak to it right now, but it blew my mind the idea that people would lose. What did you lose? I lost 40. I was like, you lost $40 dollars? Are you crazy? And it was $40,000.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

You lost 40,000?

[John Ameche]

He said, it'll, it'll come out in the wash like over the course of the season. I said, I don't have that kind of wash. That's what I was saying. Yeah. We used to give the flight attendants and, and they deserved every penny of it. We used to give them money at the, at the, at the end of the Christmas, at Christmas, just as a reward. Right, right. And I think this is when I was in Utah and Carl came up to me, he's like, yeah, don't forget we're giving, we're giving money to the flight tenants. And so it's five, so just remember to have it next time. Five in cash. I was like, no problem. And so I went to the, the, the, the bank and I got $500 out and I brought it back and, and I said, here's my five. And he just looked at me like I was a crazy person. He said, it's 5,000. And the thing is, please don't understand, misunderstand me. They totally deserve whatever they get. 5,000 is more appropriate. It just didn't even twig in my mind that we'd be talking in thousands. And I have never had $5,000 or pounds or Euros in my hand ever. I'm not frugal. Right. I've spent money, but it's been on a car. And he said, no, don't worry, I'll spot you. And out of his cowboy jeans pulls this wad like this and just go, chicka chicka chicka. Chicka. I was like, this is a.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

Like he's getting out of his big rig.

[John Ameche]

Right? There aren't just levels of talent in the league. There are just levels of, like, aura in the league. And I wasn't in that high level.

[Ryan Sickler]

But you're seeing these guys throw that money away, though. It was on a flight.

[John Ameche]

It was amazing losing $40,000 on a flight. And the other thing was that was the era of Jacob the Jeweler, too. Oh, yeah, that was the era of Jacob the Jeweler. And he had. He had made it so that the thing to have was a gold chain encrusted in diamonds with a medallion. That was your face.

[Ryan Sickler]

Oh, you get. I didn't know about the face.

[John Ameche]

A medallion. That was your face. I remember.

[Ryan Sickler]

How much are these things? Ryan?

[John Ameche]

I. Listen, I didn't even ask. I saw it on one of the planes.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

Who had one with their own face on it?

[John Ameche]

I'm not saying it. He walked onto the plane with it, and it wasn't just me. Some of the vets looked at him like. And he walked onto plane with this thing and it's like. And the chains, you don't realize rope, they are not thin. And they couldn't be to hold this thing. I never held it. I feel some regret because I'm like. Like, I just would have liked to hold that much gold and diamonds just in my hands. Right.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

Yeah.

[John Ameche]

What I did used to do is ask my teammates if I could sit in their car because I had.

[Ryan Sickler]

Who had the best one.

[John Ameche]

I had a Jeep Grand Cherokee.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's what you're driving. You're comfortable in a six, eight, man. Six, nine and a Cherokee.

[John Ameche]

It was awful. But it was the car that I got. I. I paid for it with the money that was left to me when my mum passed away. So that was the first thing I bought. And then I switched to a Denali. I don't know what it is, but suv, GMC thing. Right? And then so my teammates would come in and I remember Andre Kurilenko coming in in a brand new Porsche suv. I was like, that thing is special. Can I sit in your car? So I sat in his car before a game and. Oh, what was his name? He was the guard. He was utterly brilliant. The guard who was with Houston. I can't remember his name.

[Ryan Sickler]

Cell.

[John Ameche]

No, it's been. No, no. Amazing. Point guard. Brilliant. Anyway, he drove in with a Rolls Royce. It was the first Rolls Royce I'd ever seen in my life. First Rolls Royce suicide. Doors opens and I was like, that's all hand stitched. Yeah. Can I sit in it? He was like, no. He said, no, I've only just got this. The only ass that's going to be in this is mine. I said, that's, that's fun. Said you can touch the carpets. So I touched the Lem the Lamb carpets. It was amazing, I tell you.

[Ryan Sickler]

So how has being a psychologist helped you and how have you, how has it helped you help others? You know, you've gone through quite a bit. You're. You're a history maker all the way through. How's that helped you?

[John Ameche]

I often think, think that the skills I have now would have been really useful if I had them while I played because I don't know that I was as mentally strong as I could have been. Maybe I'd have played more years in the league. Maybe I would have had better success in places I found really difficult, like Utah.

[Ryan Sickler]

How many years did you get total?

[John Ameche]

Six.

[Ryan Sickler]

Six?

[John Ameche]

Yeah. And so maybe it would have been better. The thing I love is that now I was always pretty average as an NBA player. I'm an all star at this. This sounds really arrogant, but no, I'm good at this. This is something I've worked hard at and I'm good at. And the really fun part is it's much easier for me to be good at this. Like focusing on people when I'm talking to them. Really doing this, the study behind, behind the conversations I have, doing the extra research to find out some new thing that will help me. That stuff is like second nature to me, me. So it's been brilliant to work with people. I work with a lot of very senior people who are managing the turbulence of the times. How to lead through this craziness. I work with a lot of people who are transitioning. They're very talented and they're about to make that next big step to become partners in organizations, large organizations or very senior people or set out on their own as entrepreneurs. It's really cool. It requires that I learn a ton about industries I never knew about. Who knew I would know stuff about, about like the construction industry or you know, even high finance and PE and stuff like that. So this is, this is my all star job.

[Ryan Sickler]

I love hearing that. You're an amazing man, John. Good for you dude. Thank you for doing this.

[John Ameche]

That's a pleasure.

[Ryan Sickler]

It's been a pleasure to have you here. Before I let you go and we promote one more time, I want to know advice you'd give to 16 year old John.

[John Ameche]

Just I think this is for every, every kid. But love your body, man. Just, just bask in it. Don't, don't do that thing where you spend your 16 year olds thinking about, oh, I'm a bit fat, I'm a bit this, I'm a bit lanky. Just love that thing. Because it doesn't. It betrays you later on.

[Ryan Sickler]

It sure does.

[John Ameche]

But in those. I was watching a kid. This sounds weird, but I was in the airport and there was this kid that kept on getting up out of his seat without using his hands. Hands.

[Ryan Sickler]

He didn't have to push on.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

That's great. I'm gonna try.

[John Ameche]

I had to be careful because I was looking. And he did it once and got up just to randomly walk around and sat down. And he sat down without using his hands. I have to do a three point thing to sit on the toilet nowadays.

[Ryan Sickler]

Right.

[John Ameche]

And it's like. Cause my knees just will not, they won't do that. Right. Or at least there's a risk of catastrophic failure. And I'm afraid the porcelain will not take that kind of, kind of weight coming down on it. And so just 16 year old, just bask in that body of yours because it may not be perfect, but it is operating at about as good as it ever will and it's going to be resilient and bounce back. Just love that thing. Don't, don't do anything special with it. Just love the fact that you've got it and, and go about your business.

[Ryan Sickler]

It's great advice. It really is. I want to say this too because I don't ever say anything after this, but I had a near death death experience and at the time, I'm going in just in my day to day, few days before that, my weight, my this, my that, whatever, everything that I was that day, even if it was five pounds overweight or whatever it was, it saved my life that day. That day I was exactly how I should have been.

[John Ameche]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

And from that moment I'm like, all right, we can definitely get in better shape but let's not beat ourself up so much. Like.

[John Ameche]

Yes.

[Ryan Sickler]

Let's not beat ourselves also. So I wish I could go back to 16 year old me and say this is what you look like when you're 52. You got your teeth, you got your hair. You know what I mean? You're not, you're not on a Rascal.

[Unidentified Guest or Producer]

Like, we're good, bro.

[John Ameche]

We're good. That's exactly right.

[Ryan Sickler]

John, thank you so much. One more time. Everything promoted. All right there.

[John Ameche]

Appreciate it. Thank you. Come and find me on social media. LinkedIn, Instagram and TikTok, I think are the main three. And buy my new book, It's Not Magic. The Ordinary Skills of Exceptional Leaders. Us.

[Ryan Sickler]

Thank you, my man.

[John Ameche]

A pleasure.

[Ryan Sickler]

Go get the book. As always, Ryan Sickler on all your social media. Thank you, guys. We'll talk to y' all next week.