387: My Dad Announced His Affair on Vacation?! | Emma Willmann | The HoneyDew with Ryan Sickler #387

Summary

Podcast Summary

The HoneyDew with Ryan Sickler – Episode 387: "My Dad Announced His Affair on Vacation?! | Emma Willmann"
Release Date: May 25, 2026
Guest: Emma Willmann
Theme: Exploring and finding humor in life’s “lowlights” through Emma Willmann’s childhood, family drama, coming out, mental health struggles, and healing.

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Episode Overview

This episode features comedian Emma Willmann sharing candid and often hilarious stories from her unconventional upbringing in rural Maine, her parents’ messy divorce (including her dad’s ill-timed affair announcement on a family trip), struggles with sexuality and mental health, and journey toward self-acceptance. Ryan and Emma embody the show’s mission: highlighting the "stories behind the storytellers" while finding laughter in life's hardest moments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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Emma’s Unique Upbringing in Rural Maine

• Family Background & Blue Hill, Maine ([06:18]–[08:45])

  • Emma grew up in a town of 2,000, Blue Hill, with hippie parents who moved north from Massachusetts.
  • Her dad built an off-the-grid dome in the woods, while her mom ran a blueberry farm and hired him (a carpenter)—that’s how they met.
  • Parents had her and a sister in their 40s after stuffy New England upbringings.

• Small Town Quirks

  • "You could live there for a long time, but if you weren't born there, you're still gonna be a summer person." – Emma Willmann [08:38]
  • Blue Hill’s population split: locals vs. "summer people" who never felt fully accepted.

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The Infamous Family Road Trip & Affair Reveal

• Dad’s Affair Announcement ([08:51]–[10:52])

  • Parents’ split happened while Emma was in 3rd or 4th grade.
  • Her dad revealed he was cheating during a family road trip through Canada—while stopped at KFC missing mashed potatoes but filled with gravy, of all places.
  • “He hadn’t planned on telling me, but…sometime in there he mentioned the cheating. My mom wasn’t laughing anymore.” – Emma Willmann [09:37]
  • Emma’s mom: devastated, but the real reason not clear until months later.

• Comedic Reflection

  • “Any rational person would have to just take a split second in all that chaos to be like, now, for real. This is when you’re doing it?” – Ryan Sickler [10:52]

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Blended Families, Stepmoms, and Kid Drama

• Aftermath of Divorce ([14:22]–[18:48])

  • Dad quickly started dating “the other woman,” Carol, whom Emma admits to being cruel towards as a kid.
  • Kids were separated between different parents and homes in the divorce; Emma with her dad, sister with mom, half-brother elsewhere.
  • “They were definitely using us [kids] to get back at each other.” – Emma [18:47]

• Unconventional Schooling ([19:37]–[22:41])

  • Emma attended a Waldorf school: “real hippie…salute the sun, lots of cooking, shoes off.”
  • Even in a school with no grades, Emma was singled out for special education due to undiagnosed dyslexia—"My ‘special ed’ was just me." [22:01]

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Coming Out, Internal Struggles, and Acceptance

• Sexuality & Being Closeted ([23:39]–[27:18])

  • Realized attraction to girls young but suppressed it; was vocally anti-gay as a defense mechanism in high school.
  • “I made a big deal about being against gay marriage… I was just scared.” – Emma [26:48]
  • Both parents were liberal, but there was no open discussion or representation.

• Coming Out Milestones ([38:43]–[44:42])

  • First same-sex makeout and crushes described with humor and vulnerability (“Ren the lesbian”—her first kiss [39:18])
  • College girlfriend "Angela" outed Emma amid college drama.
  • Emma told her mother at a silent meditation retreat: “I whispered it to her and she went, ‘What?’” [45:47]
  • Father learned from a stepmom, later displaying unexpected support: "He was like, you got—there’s two ways to live life. Either be yourself or you don’t. And one of them is going to kill you." [52:37]

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Mental Health & Suicide Attempt

• Adversity and Self-Destruction ([63:43]–[73:56])
  • Multiple suicide attempts, first in 8th grade during a particularly dark time: binge eating, drinking, bullying from stepmom, and academic struggles from dyslexia.
  • OD’d on Tylenol while the adults discussed her fate downstairs.
  • Ambulance ride soundtracked by Aaliyah’s “Try Again,” adding cosmic dark humor:
    – "I tried to kill myself. Now I'm in the ambulance listening to ‘Try Again.’" [69:59] – “At first you don’t succeed, brush yourself off, try again…” – Emma [70:13]
  • Found life’s small joys again (e.g., first scoop of peanut butter) and has since worked hard at self-compassion and healing.

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Dysfunctional Relationships, Lessons, and Healing

• Romantic Trial and Error ([54:43]–[55:14])

  • Emma: “I was just going with anybody that I was attracted to that liked me, and then modifying how I was… instead of thinking, who am I and are we a good fit?”
  • Ryan reassures: “That is not exclusive to lesbians.” [55:09]

• Breaking Family Patterns and Finding Humor

  • Emma’s reflections on difficult stepmoms, her dad’s third wife (a now great stepmom), and the struggle to build healthy relationships after never seeing examples.
  • Both Emma and Ryan discuss how humor helps break cycles and process pain: – “You can have humor in the darkest places… It kind of snaps you out of that… Humor will do that if something funny happens.” – Emma [71:40] – “Eventually get up, move forward, and find moments to laugh… that builds character.” – Ryan [71:18]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |------------|-----------------------------------------------------------|--------------| | [09:37] | “He hadn’t planned on telling me, but… he mentioned the cheating. My mom wasn’t laughing anymore.” | Emma Willmann | | [14:41] | “Carol was the lady.” | Emma Willmann | | [16:13] | “Your father’s sick… wants to have a threesome with me and that woman Carol.” | Emma’s mom | | [18:47] | “They were definitely using us [kids] to get back at each other.” | Emma Willmann | | [26:48] | “I made a big deal about being against gay marriage… I was just scared.” | Emma Willmann | | [39:18] | “Ren the lesbian.” (Emma’s first same-sex kiss) | Emma Willmann | | [45:47] | “I whispered it to her and she went, ‘What?’” (Coming out at silent retreat) | Emma Willmann | | [52:37] | “You got—there’s two ways to live life. Either be yourself or you don’t. And one of them is going to kill you.” | Emma’s dad | | [69:59] | “I tried to kill myself. Now I'm in the ambulance listening to ‘Try Again.’” | Emma Willmann | | [71:40] | “You can have humor in the darkest places… it snaps you out of that.” | Emma Willmann | | [71:18] | “Eventually get up, move forward, and find moments to laugh… that builds character.” | Ryan Sickler |

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Additional Lowlights & Laughs

• Emma’s “toothless” years—popping out a veneer by accident during boxing class and noticing she got hit on more without the tooth ([03:32]–[04:27])
• Waldorf school anecdotes—“special ed of one” and maypole weaving struggles tipping off her dyslexia ([22:01]–[23:16])
• AOL and early internet misadventures while closeted ([36:57]–[37:26])
• Running on energy pills and Adderall during high school sports ([38:10]–[38:38])
• “Ring dinger” chiropractic obsessions ([56:09]–[59:14])

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Advice to 16-Year-Old Emma

([74:55])

• “Don’t smoke those cigarettes. Learn how to take a damn walk. Learn how to take a break, and breath… At 40, I see all these little decisions and how they all build.” – Emma Willmann
• Both reflect on the, often unappreciated, luxury of health, and the importance of kindness to your future self.

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Conclusion

Emma Willmann shares an unvarnished, laugh-out-loud, and deeply human account of surviving and transforming through family chaos, shame, and depression. She and Ryan find the show’s sweet spot: the power of humor and storytelling to process pain, break family patterns, and build resilience.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [06:18] Life in Blue Hill, Maine & Family background
• [08:51] Dad reveals affair on vacation
• [14:41] The other woman: Carol enters the picture
• [18:47] Sibling separation in the divorce
• [22:01] Waldorf school & starting to discover dyslexia
• [23:39] Realizing and hiding sexuality, internalized homophobia
• [39:18] First same-sex experience and coming out journey
• [45:47] Coming out to mom at silent meditation retreat
• [52:37] Dad’s supportive wisdom upon learning Emma was gay
• [63:53] Discussion of suicide attempt and surrounding circumstances
• [71:40] Finding humor even in the darkest times
• [74:55] Advice to her younger self

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For more Emma Willmann: emmawillmann.com – Touring new comedy hour.
Follow Ryan Sickler: @RyanSickler on all socials.

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If you or someone you know is struggling, please reach out for help. You are not alone.

Transcript

[Ryan Sickler]

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[Emma Willman]

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[Ryan Sickler]

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[Emma Willman]

They're hunting us. It's time we started hunting them. I can work with them. This should be tons of fun.

[Ryan Sickler]

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[Emma Willman]

Disney.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Ryan Sickler]

I'll be there Friday, June 19th and Saturday, June 20th. All tickets on my website at ryancickler.com

[Emma Willman]

the Honeydew with Ryan Sickler.

[Ryan Sickler]

Welcome back to the Honeydew, y'.

[Emma Willman]

All.

[Ryan Sickler]

Ryan Sickler here. RyanCickler.com and Ryan Sickler on all your social media guys, thank you for supporting this show. Thanks for supporting anything we do here. And if you gotta have more, go check out the Patreon. It is this show with y'.

[Emma Willman]

All.

[Ryan Sickler]

The Honeydew with y'. All. It's five bucks a month. It's been that way since it started. And it's the best show on Patreon. I promise you. Go watch the best of episodes we do here on the regular YouTube. Go see the highlights of that. Boom. A cup of coffee. Hundreds of episodes. 8. If you or someone you know has a story that has to be heard, submit it to us here@honeydew podcastmail.com we would love to do your story. All right, that's the biz. You guys know what we do here. We highlight the lowlights. I always say these are the stories behind the storytellers. I am very excited to have this guest with us today. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Emma Willman. Welcome to the Honeydew, Emma.

[Emma Willman]

Thank you, Ryan. Thank you for having me. I appreciate that.

[Ryan Sickler]

Thank you for being here.

[Emma Willman]

I love that idea of hearing people's stories. Just I love hearing. I love hearing people's stories.

[Ryan Sickler]

Well, I'm. We're going to get into yours before we do and before I even Say anything about how I met you. Blah, blah, blah right there. Please promote everything and anything you'd like.

[Emma Willman]

I keep everything [e-mail]. i've got a bunch of tour dates starting the second week in March. I'm on the road every single weekend for up through the summer. So I'm. I'm on tour, working on a new hour and please come out. It's going to be great. I love. I love the stuff that I'm working on now, and I would love to have you at the show. How's that?

[Ryan Sickler]

That's great.

[Emma Willman]

You do a little promo voice when you start promoting your stuff.

[Ryan Sickler]

I don't know. I don't even know what I'm supposed to do anymore.

[Emma Willman]

I know I like blackout.

[Ryan Sickler]

A little more energy and yeah, try

[Emma Willman]

get a little pep to it.

[Ryan Sickler]

But I first met you on. You have a special on. That was on epics. I was producing on those, interviewing you. And I don't know, I just connected with you. I thought you were. I had never met you. And I'm like, man, you.

[Emma Willman]

How long ago was it? Was it like six years?

[Ryan Sickler]

Pandemic? Yeah, I think it was in 20.

[Emma Willman]

And I had this clip that I posted a couple clips from it because

[Ryan Sickler]

you popped your tooth out. I'm like, I ain't never going. I will never forget. Lady popped a ton tooth out and smiled at me. You didn't pop it out like some homeless lady in the street?

[Emma Willman]

Like, no real charmer. That was my. That was my little. I was missing this tooth. And when I met Ryan, I had a temporary one, but I kept popping it in and out and I kept losing it. So then I ended up just not having a tooth for like six months after that. You did no tooth? Because I kept losing it. And I was waiting to get an implant, but, like, my mouth wasn't taken to the bone. There's all these problems.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay, real quick, pause for a second. The. Did you get hit on more with or without the tooth?

[Emma Willman]

So I don't get hit on very much, but I got hit on more without the tooth.

[Ryan Sickler]

You did.

[Emma Willman]

I mean, I probably got hit on like four times. So this isn't like some huge metric

[Ryan Sickler]

of getting hit, but still you would say you don't get hit on that approach that much now. Tooth out. And here they come.

[Emma Willman]

Tooth out.

[Ryan Sickler]

Crazy. We'd be so insecure about something like this. And here they come.

[Emma Willman]

It's because what my girlfriend said it was. She goes, look like a badass. You look rugged.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's what you Said, like, you could help somebody.

[Emma Willman]

Like I could help somebody. Little did they know I punched myself in the face during a boxing class. I can't even help. Is that really, that's really what happened? It wasn't even during the class, actually. I was listening. There's a guy, super funny comic named Sergio Chacon that also teaches boxing and he was telling a story and I was just listening to it and I was doing. Have you done boxing before you do that class?

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah, yeah, this.

[Emma Willman]

So I was doing it and I was listening to him tell a story and I was like. And then I popped myself in the face.

[Ryan Sickler]

No.

[Emma Willman]

And it wasn't hard, but it was enough. It hit it at such an angle. I had a veneer and it, it broke that. So then my tooth was like hanging by a little nerve. And then I had to go, I said, I got hit in the face. And the dentist still to this day doesn't know I hit myself in the face because I said I got hit in the face. And they just assumed like, oh my God.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

Are you all right? Are they all right? And I was like, yeah, no, no, the other guy is real fucked up. Like, I didn't, couldn't, didn't have the heart to say I punched myself in the face.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's how I met you on that special.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah, I remember. And I had a clip, I had a clip that, it was quick, but I posted it and there was you. You don't even. You hardly make a scent. You're about to laugh. But it's like the breathe in, you're revving up. But it's not like I cut it before even your lap was in it. But the number, the comment on that clip was, I know that's Ryan. So it was your calling car. But it was before you even laughed. It was like people know crazy.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's crazy to go to the laugh. Somebody identified as wild. Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

The wind up. So you're going, well, you' up, Ryan Sickler. There we go. Got a wind up. Notable wind up.

[Ryan Sickler]

Well, I, I got to know you a little bit on that show, but I want to get to know like the real you. Oh, boy. So let's start just quickly, where you from? What's your background? Mom, dad, siblings, etc.

[Emma Willman]

So I grew up in a tiny town. I grew up in a town of like 2,000 people in Maine. Blue Hill, Maine. Have you been to Maine before?

[Ryan Sickler]

I've been to Maine, but only because one time I drove to Boston for the weekend and once we got there, my cousin and this is in the 90s. We looked at the map and we were like, maine doesn't look that far. So look that far. We drove to Maine for lunch, and we went to a lighthouse and we went out.

[Emma Willman]

How long did that take? Seven hours. Because Maine is big.

[Ryan Sickler]

Listen. We went across the state line, so we were in Maine. We did not go deep into Maine. We went. Where's. That's, you know, Maine. Right here. We're in Maine. First lighthouse in Maine on the right. We went to. We got, to this day, the. Still the best lobster bisque I've ever had.

[Emma Willman]

Oh, it's the best.

[Ryan Sickler]

So I've been to Maine, and I'm glad.

[Emma Willman]

You ended up at a lobster. A lighthouse that even sold lobster bisque.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

Because most of them aren't selling stuff. So that's probably just got people popping up, like, what do you guys sell? And they're like, that's not what we do here at all.

[Ryan Sickler]

They do the restaurant there. Yeah, it was nice.

[Emma Willman]

Beautiful. So Maine is. I. I did have a good. In retrospect, it was a nice place to grow up in that.

[Ryan Sickler]

What's it called again?

[Emma Willman]

Blue Hill.

[Ryan Sickler]

Blue Hill.

[Emma Willman]

Tiny town up near Bar Harbor. So on the coast. My parents weren't from there. My parents were kind of like. They both grew up, I felt like, with, like, pretty, like, stuffy backgrounds, like, very uptight New England families. And then my dad became like a real, like, hippie, living off the grid. So he lived completely. No electricity or anything. And he built a little dome in the woods in Maine. And then my mom had a little blueberry farm, and she hired my dad, he was a carpenter, to do some carpentry work. And that's how they met. I think they met when they're, like, in their, like, late 30s. So then they had me at 40, my sister at whatever, 42, married, then got divorced, and, you know, a whole bunch of stuff there. But that was my. That was where I. I grew up, was in Blue Hill, Maine. That was kind of what formed me for better.

[Ryan Sickler]

And they're both from Maine originally as well? No, they're from that area.

[Emma Willman]

They're both from Massachusetts.

[Ryan Sickler]

Massachusetts.

[Emma Willman]

So they grew up. Blue Hill was like, a real mix of people that. There's, like, the locals and then the summer people that end up, like, staying and living all year round. But it was one of those towns where it was like, if you. You could live there for a long time, but if you weren't born there, you're still going to be a summer person. Does that make sense?

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

So it'd be like, you know, you could have been there for 20 years but you weren't born there. So you're a summer person. A year round summer.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay. And so when your parents split, you go with mom, dad, or you go 50, 50.

[Emma Willman]

So they split. It was in, I was in, I guess I was in like third or fourth grade. I don't have that many memories of them together. But when they split, I remember my dad, he told my mom when we were on a road trip, which I look back and that and I go

[Ryan Sickler]

wait in the car.

[Emma Willman]

He, we weren't in the car, but at the exact moment we were in the car lot after because there's the tension. We were driving around Canada, so my

[Ryan Sickler]

mom hold country too.

[Emma Willman]

What was he thinking? What was he thinking? I mean a road trip that's like

[Ryan Sickler]

you do a pit stop or something. He's just outside the car, he's like, I'm cheating. You know what? I'm cheating on you. Thinking about rap now. Let's get a divorce now. Let's get back in the car and

[Emma Willman]

drive some more and make small talk with the kids for the next five days.

[Ryan Sickler]

You remember that?

[Emma Willman]

I distinctly remember because I remember. It's so, so wild the things you remember. I remember going to KFC and we got a bucket of chicken and no, we got a bucket of mashed potatoes and gravies, but there is no mashed potatoes in it. And I remember it like blew my parents mind. You just gave us a bucket of gravy. This is crazy. So the good mood, then they're laughing about this and then sometime in there he mentioned the cheating. My mom wasn't laughing anymore.

[Ryan Sickler]

So I remember between no gravy, no gravy, he drops that bomb.

[Emma Willman]

I still, I've never asked him, like, why'd you do it then? Yeah, my mom said that she, she doesn't know either. She was like, he, he hadn't planned on telling me, but I remember that trip because I just remember it was like it was awkward in the car, you know, but when you're little, you don't quite know why.

[Ryan Sickler]

But was your mom like, how did she react? Was she yelling? Was she crying? Was she silent?

[Emma Willman]

She was so upset. She was like devastated. But I didn't know that that was why until a couple months later. And then I, I remember asking her

[Commercial Announcer]

at one point, I said, when did mom's really upset?

[Ryan Sickler]

Mom's mashed potatoes.

[Emma Willman]

She really wanted those. She's crying because she was laughing about it. But Then something, something, something devastated. And I remember that just being like, what? You know what?

[Ryan Sickler]

Also, any rational person would have to just take a split second in all that chaos to be like, now, now, for real. This is when you're doing it. You know damn well that that moment had just. Even if it's a flicker for a second, then you go back to the ca.

[Emma Willman]

Really? I think probably he didn't plan on saying he was probably like, I'm gonna wait till after the car trip. Because you do not want to have that type of conversation where you're stuck in a car. You want to be able to take a walk, take some space.

[Ryan Sickler]

Or do you think he felt safer in front of you guys? Hit him or who knows? Who knows, guys? I recently used TaskRabbit for two things. I got an invert chair where I hang upside down and stretch my back and it feels amazing. And I got a vanity for my daughter. These things had about 3,000 pieces, and I was like, yeah, man. I. I'm just looking at them on the floor. I'm like, I. I'm not doing this. So I hit up TaskRabbit. All right. Guy came out. Put both of them together. All right. TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area for moving furniture, assembly, home repairs, yard work, mounting, and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set availability, and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing. Because taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs, handled 1.5 million moves and counting. I promise you, any kind of these chores I have nowadays, I'm hitting up TaskRabbit. When life happens, your to do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get fit. $15 off your first [e-mail] or on the TaskRabbit app. Using promo code Honeydew, Taskers book up fast, especially for same day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That's $15 off your first task using promo code Honeydew with the TaskRabbit app [e-mail] I used to be someone who didn't put much thought into my outfit ahead of time. But lately I've caught myself trying to be more intentional in the way I dress. I used to think looking professional meant uncomfortable, stiff clothes that you can't get out of quick enough by the end of the day. But thanks to the pieces I've gotten from Quince. I know that's not the only way. If your wardrobe needs it, Quince has it. Everything from blazers and cashmere sweaters to lightweight linens. They even have pants that hit the same balance of relaxed and comfortable, but put together enough to keep me looking polished. Another huge hit for me has been the Bamboo Lounge tees. It's almost impossible to describe and how soft the material is while still staying lightweight and breathable. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're getting premium materials without the markup. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to Quince.comHoneydew for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.comHoneydew for Free Shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.comHoneydew she's not a real hitter, but you don't know. You don't know. You don't tell somebody. You're ruining our family, right?

[Emma Willman]

Something like that, yeah. Because he was.

[Ryan Sickler]

This is our last trip together, by the way.

[Emma Willman]

Enjoy this. Enjoy this one.

[Ryan Sickler]

The last time you had mashed potatoes, I expected to have today, but this is the last trip.

[Emma Willman]

This is the last one. A car trip.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's brutal.

[Emma Willman]

Bad time.

[Ryan Sickler]

That is bad.

[Emma Willman]

And it was me, my sister and my half brother because my dad was married. He had his first wife. Then he married my mom. And then he was in a relationship with this woman Carol, very quickly after that. So they got divorced, like, quick.

[Ryan Sickler]

Was Carol the lady?

[Emma Willman]

Carol was the lady.

[Ryan Sickler]

Carol was.

[Emma Willman]

Oh, I was so mean to her too, because I.

[Ryan Sickler]

And he had a kid with her.

[Emma Willman]

He didn't end up having a kid with her.

[Ryan Sickler]

He.

[Emma Willman]

After me and my sister, no more kids. But he. And he didn't end up marrying Carol. But they were in a relationship. But I was so mean to her. And in retrospect, it's like she wasn't the one that was in a relationship. I mean, I was a kid, so I'm not gonna be too hard. Hard on myself, but I was. I would call her it. Like I'd be like, is it gonna be here? Like, I'd be so. I was so mean to her. I'd, like give her looks. I'd like hiss at her. Like I blamed her for everything because I get along really well with my dad.

[Ryan Sickler]

You have kids? She didn't have kids. So there's no step. Anything.

[Emma Willman]

No step. I did end up Having another stepmom who had a bunch of kids. And then my stepmom now has no kids. My stepmom now is great. Had an awful stepmom. Carol. I don't know if she was good or bad because I was so young and I was so mean.

[Ryan Sickler]

Carol's coming in at the wrong time.

[Emma Willman]

She. The timing was not understand.

[Ryan Sickler]

I knew she was a married man with kids. True. So Carol.

[Emma Willman]

But who knows what he was telling her. I don't know. He could have been like, I'm getting divorced. I'm getting. You know what I mean?

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

Because now that I know, you know,

[Ryan Sickler]

taking a trip with the kids into Hawaii. What a place to tell.

[Emma Willman]

And people tell people, like, wild stuff about their relationship. So in the past, I would have been like, yeah, you know her. But now I'm like, who? I have never heard her.

[Ryan Sickler]

You could have been lying to Carol all day the whole time.

[Emma Willman]

Like, I'm gonna assume. Yes. Like. And I remember my mom was always like, oh, your father wants to have a threesome with me and Carol. So I was getting too much.

[Ryan Sickler]

Your mom's telling you that? Yeah. How old are you when she's telling you that? Oh, around middle school.

[Emma Willman]

I mean, it was when we were. They were getting divorced, so. Yeah. Third, fourth, fifth grade.

[Ryan Sickler]

Oh, that's element young. That's way too young.

[Emma Willman]

Maybe seventh day. Still young.

[Ryan Sickler]

Elementary school. And the word threesome sexually should never even be introduced.

[Emma Willman]

She'd go. Because I remember we were. We were skiing, and she was like, we're on the. What's it called when you go up the g. What is it? I haven't been skiing.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah, that little thing.

[Emma Willman]

Ski lift. She. I remember being on the ski lift, and she goes, your father's sick. And I was like, watch. Have a threesome with me and that woman. Carol. And Carol was 411. And so she'd always go out of her way to make it clear that she didn't have a problem with Carol's height. It was like the content of her character. She was like, 4, 11. Not there's anything wrong with that. It's just that she's a little. And I remember saying, was your mom.

[Ryan Sickler]

Were they in. Was she into the idea of openness or just not with Carol.

[Emma Willman]

Absolutely not. The idea of openness. Like, no.

[Ryan Sickler]

There would have been no woman that would have been. Okay.

[Emma Willman]

Absolutely not. No way. Plus, I feel like under those circumstances, if someone brings it up like they've been cheating, and then they want to have a threesome, you know what I mean?

[Ryan Sickler]

No, that's how he did it.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

I thought she was like, I'm not having a threesome. Then he was like, then I'm out of here. And he cheated.

[Emma Willman]

No. He was like, I'm seeing someone. You want to hook on her like that? I know. Maybe. I feel like one way I've dealt with stuff which has been good and bad.

[Ryan Sickler]

Wow, that's a wild.

[Emma Willman]

I. You could.

[Ryan Sickler]

Here's the other thing. You couldn't pay me enough to go ask my freshly ex wife that question.

[Emma Willman]

Kill me, could you?

[Ryan Sickler]

Yes.

[Emma Willman]

You had you. Would you get.

[Ryan Sickler]

Here's $10,000 to ask her. I'm like, I'm not even.

[Emma Willman]

You'd have to be so confident and like, you.

[Ryan Sickler]

$20,000 I' pitching that idea of not doing it. I won't even suggest.

[Emma Willman]

You'd have to be so confident or delusional in some type in your sexual abilities to be like, I can spin this. So they're gonna want. But I mean, I can't think of.

[Ryan Sickler]

Carol's into it.

[Emma Willman]

Carol's into it. We've already talked about it. Who knows? She doesn't know what's going on. This poor woman. They lasted like four or five months. I was so mean to her.

[Ryan Sickler]

She gave his whole family up for months. Months.

[Emma Willman]

Yep. But they would have gotten divorced anyway. Because I look back at my parents now, and they. These are. These are not two people that get along. And then the divorce was messy. My sister lived with my mom. I lived with my dad. My brother lived with his mom. So all the kids got separated, which at the time, didn't seem that unusual. But now I do see it as a little bit of an odd dynamic. But they were using us for sure to get back at, you know, it was like, well, you can't see Emma if I don't get to see Katie. Like, that type of thing.

[Ryan Sickler]

It wasn't healthy at all.

[Emma Willman]

It wasn't healthy. It was a met. It was such a mess.

[Ryan Sickler]

So how are you seeing your sister and your brother? Are you not.

[Emma Willman]

So I would see my sister at school, but it was weird because I kind of felt. I think we both felt a little like, what's going on? Like, why are you getting to see Ma? I don't get. I'm not seeing mom, you're not seeing dad. So it was like a little, like, it was just odd. We recognized that it was odd. And then also in elementary school, my sister started getting really underweight, and I started, like, gaining a lot of weight. So I remember we would Both, like, be clocking each other. Like, okay, different food. Things are happening at the different houses. My dad was giving me Pop tar every. You know, I'm eating toaster strudel and Pop Tarts all day, every day. And then my sister was. We were kind of going into controlling. Trying to control our environment in different ways so we would see each other. But it was weird. We weren't really talking. We went to the same. Are you familiar with Waldorf schools?

[Ryan Sickler]

No.

[Emma Willman]

So we went to a little Waldorf school. Tiny.

[Ryan Sickler]

Is that. Was that like a finishing school? What sort of school is.

[Emma Willman]

I wish I was finishing school. I wish. Oh, I would have loved to have, like, where you get the best manners and, like, pinkies up.

[Ryan Sickler]

This friend of mine, Jackie, was from New Orleans, and she did that. Yeah. Because her. It was all, like, debutante. Yes.

[Emma Willman]

I think that's so interesting.

[Ryan Sickler]

And she taught me square meals, which I didn't know. She said. She said, look, I'm wrong about a lot of things sometimes, but she said the square meal was properly. You're supposed to eat like this. You're bringing your food to you in a square. This is how we're proud. We're not hunched over. Guilty.

[Emma Willman]

I do. I have my thing.

[Ryan Sickler]

We're supposed to square me.

[Emma Willman]

Do you think that that would look weird?

[Ryan Sickler]

That's what. That's what she said. See, a lot of just how. Like, the proper fork.

[Emma Willman]

Right.

[Ryan Sickler]

The way to greet. And I mean, I was like, God, yeah.

[Emma Willman]

I don't know any of that. I don't know any of. But I would like to. I would like to be very sophisticated. But that was not school it. Waldorf school is, like. They don't do grades. It's like a real hippie type of environment. Like, you salute the sun. Montessori school. Have you heard of those?

[Ryan Sickler]

Yes.

[Emma Willman]

So it's like that.

[Ryan Sickler]

We're saluting the sun.

[Emma Willman]

We would salute the sun. We would like. Well, I forget what. Like, may the sun rise to meet you. We'd all, like, hold hands in a circle and, like, welcome the sun.

[Ryan Sickler]

Are we pledging allegiance to a flag there?

[Emma Willman]

No. Nothing. No shoes, really. You get in, you take your shoes off, have little socks and slippers.

[Ryan Sickler]

Are you learning the. The what? You know, traditional curriculum of the other schools. Are you learning, like, just, like, emotions. Are you learning early?

[Emma Willman]

Exactly what conservative people like, stress about happening.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

Where it's like they're just sitting there learning how to be gay. And we would be. We would make, like, granola. We do lots of cooking, and we would do something called Eurythmy. And then we would learn, like, math and Latin, and we would. So we would learn kind of traditional stuff. But I started getting. I started getting taken out of class because even though there weren't grades, somehow I ended up failing the classes. So I started getting taken out and going into, like, a version of special ed in this Waldorf school, even though there was no grade. So I don't know how they started

[Ryan Sickler]

distinguishing that and how many kids are in that class.

[Emma Willman]

My special ed was just me.

[Ryan Sickler]

A body of one.

[Emma Willman]

Body of one. It was just me. So maybe it wasn't special ed, but it was just. I was in my own special group.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay.

[Emma Willman]

But the whole school was probably, like, I bet like 75 kids.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay.

[Emma Willman]

So it was. But this is. This is really rural Maine. So it's like a very.

[Ryan Sickler]

And is it a first through fifth sort of thing? Is it all first through 12?

[Emma Willman]

No, first through eighth. First through eighth.

[Ryan Sickler]

And are you separated by grades or. We intermingling two grades at a time.

[Emma Willman]

So you would have two at a time. So each grade would have, like, 12 kids, and then you'd be together in that. And those. I still do have, like, good memories of that. Like, I liked. I like. I just, like, liked being in. I liked that Waldorf school. I peaked. I peaked at my Waldorf school.

[Ryan Sickler]

You did.

[Emma Willman]

I think that was, like, some of the best times in my life just running around, salute in the sun and doing things. Like, we would do a. Something called a maple. You ever heard one of those? You have this giant pole, and then you hold on to a piece of silk, and you. The kids, like, dance around it, but you do it in a certain pattern, so it leaves a weaving on the maple. But how I started realizing I was dyslexic was I would be messing up the patterns. And you've all got your own colored ribbon. So at the end, they would look at it and they go, who's got blue? Because it's all. Everything's one way. And then there's this zigzag across, and then I hold in the blue. So that's how I started figuring out.

[Ryan Sickler]

Is that right?

[Emma Willman]

Yeah, I started going, oh, that. And they would have, you know. And, like, people are spelling stuff around you because they don't want the kid to know what it is. Like, you know, tonight we're going to have W I, N, E. Yeah. I wasn't clocking that. The way that, like, my sister would be like, mom and dad are gonna drink wine, and I'd be Like, I thought they were going to the arcade. Like, stuff like. Like, I couldn't clock it, so. And then they started getting me tested for stuff.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay. And at what point do you know you're. You know, do you like girls? You're in the closet. How early does that begin for you?

[Emma Willman]

I appreciate how smooth that was that you asked.

[Ryan Sickler]

You like that?

[Emma Willman]

Yeah, because sometimes people get real. Like, when did you, you know, like, don't know how to.

[Ryan Sickler]

What?

[Emma Willman]

Just ask. Yeah, but I relate to that now because I feel weird asking people if they've watched Heated Rivalry. Like, I'll start. You haven't seen Heated Rivalry.

[Ryan Sickler]

Cursing ass. Oh.

[Emma Willman]

So I felt comfortable just asking if I knew. Oh, it's amazing. It's a show on hbo. I don't even usually like romance stuff. It's so. The acting was so good, but I find myself with straight guys or gay guys even. I feel weird asking them about. It's super hardcore. There's a lot of hardcore sex in it. But the acting, Ryan, it's.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's what I'm watching for.

[Emma Willman]

No, I'm telling you. I know that's. You can see this point, this gay sex form. It's acting amazing, the acting of these guys. It's so. I haven't been, like, moved like this from acting maybe ever. And I don't, like, love stuff. Like, I like. I like Taken. I like the Born identity. I like action movies. But so I. I started having more compassion if people ask me how I'm gay because I feel weird for some reason.

[Ryan Sickler]

I feel like this is a comfortable setting where I'm supposed to. Or Ken. Freedom to ask you that. I would not see you out in the street and be like, when you start hitting on chicks, I'm not gonna. You know what I mean? I wouldn't do that.

[Emma Willman]

Fair.

[Ryan Sickler]

But I am curious because my first. My first gay education was a manager at the hotel when I worked out here. I was 24 at the time.

[Emma Willman]

And that was the first gay person, first gay friend.

[Ryan Sickler]

I mean, I met gay guys, but I know I didn't know them or they weren't really in our. And if they were, they never said, you know now. And I wonder. Of course, sure, I mean, I could point out a couple, but they never exposed that I just never cared.

[Emma Willman]

Right.

[Ryan Sickler]

You know what I mean? I didn't. Some guys also in high school, there were a lot of my friends who weren't gay, but they also weren't into girls because they were just awkward and didn't know how to even talk To a girl and had nothing to do with preference. It was just, I'm a weird kid with acne and retainers and.

[Emma Willman]

Were there any out people at your high school?

[Ryan Sickler]

That's a damn good question.

[Emma Willman]

I don't think we had. I think we. We made. We had one girl that was out as bi. I think that was it.

[Ryan Sickler]

I mean, we. You knew. You knew, right?

[Emma Willman]

You knew. No, no. We had a couple where. You knew.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah. And maybe you knew because a friend of theirs may have said quietly. But no one was out. Right? No one was like, support.

[Emma Willman]

No, same. I mean, we had, like.

[Ryan Sickler]

Not at all. I mean, also, I'm older. I graduated in 91, so my high school's 87 and 91. Nobody's. No, they're not admitting it is amazing.

[Emma Willman]

I mean, obviously there's, like, so much farther we need to go. But it has also changed so much, too, because when I was in high school, I didn't know any. Anybody. But I did have an idea. Like, I have these. I have some of my very first.

[Ryan Sickler]

So you didn't date girls in high school?

[Emma Willman]

I was so in the closet. I was so in the closet. And I went out of my way to not have people think I was gay, that I would be, like. Made a big deal about being against gay marriage. I had this good friend.

[Ryan Sickler]

You were vocal.

[Emma Willman]

Vocal. I had this good friend, Margot, and I was always talking about. I'd be like, wow. Her mom had good friends that were. One of them was lesbian. And I was like, the lesbian's gonna be there. Like, ghost. And she was like, you sound so ignorant. She's like, what's your problem? Why do you care? She's like, I never think. Like, I don't think about it. And I was like, it's just putting it in our face with her. She's short hair. Go. She had a haircut. But there's tons of people with short hair in Maine. But I just got that short hair short of mine.

[Ryan Sickler]

Right.

[Emma Willman]

Just trying to change everything. Like, I had a real internal. I was just scared. I don't want anything.

[Ryan Sickler]

I was brought up religious.

[Emma Willman]

Not in the slightest.

[Ryan Sickler]

Would mom and dad be against it or.

[Emma Willman]

No. And they are very hippie people.

[Ryan Sickler]

You'd think they'd be supportive.

[Emma Willman]

Super liberal. So they're both super liberal. But I also just didn't know. It's not like they had gay friends. My mom did, as I got older, had a really good trans friend.

[Ryan Sickler]

But other than growing up, you're the only gay person didn't know any. No you're it. I'm it for you. For me, there's not a friend, even a relative, a cousin, that at least is out where we have a.

[Emma Willman]

We had one relative. And he told my mom when I was like in fifth grade, he goes, your daughter's gay.

[Ryan Sickler]

Oh, he.

[Emma Willman]

And she. He was, yeah. That's why it was like. It wasn't like some like, you know, straight uncle or something was like. It was like a flamboyant. And they're like, he just passed the pot roast. And he was like, I'm just letting

[Ryan Sickler]

everybody know that was that one.

[Emma Willman]

It was this gay. My gay uncle Abe told my mom, and my mom, years later was like, Abe predicted it. He knew.

[Ryan Sickler]

Predicted.

[Emma Willman]

He predicted it.

[Ryan Sickler]

She's gonna turn.

[Emma Willman]

She's gonna turn g. What?

[Ryan Sickler]

But now, sometimes gayness is ridiculous.

[Emma Willman]

If you see a picture of me when I was little, I did look. Cuz I'm in all my pictures going, you know, I looked very, very gay. My dad, Carol actually had a gay friend sue, who also predicted it. She said, you know, Jeff, like your daughter, that. That's a gay person. I don't know what I was doing that just gave it away. But they knew, so they probably knew before I. But I knew something because I would watch. I would watch the Disney movies and I would like the girl. And I would always. I would always want. I had a lot of little. Like a guy. Almost all my friends in elementary school were guys. And I would always be like, let's pretend we're brothers or let's pretend we're princes. And then I would want to. We would like pretend like that we were gonna date women like a guy. Like we'd all. It was always us. And then at a certain point, I had this friend, Harrison. He goes, are you sure you shouldn't be pretending you want to date guys? And it was really sweet. He was like, you don't have to pretend you want to date women because you're playing with me. Like it's okay if you want to date. Like, he was like basically saying, like, it's okay to also be straight again. I remembered that, that he. And then I was like, oh, you. No, I'll just keep doing women. And him and I used to look at. We would get together in Google boobs.

[Ryan Sickler]

What year is this?

[Emma Willman]

We were probably, I want to say like fifth, sixth grade. Did you do this? Did you ever. Did you watch like Jerry Springer and stuff like that?

[Ryan Sickler]

Of course.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah. So we would watch Jerry Springer, which I forgot about that. That I forgot about that then I was talking about. I was talking about social media. I was like, oh, kids are ruining the brains with social media. But we were watching hours.

[Ryan Sickler]

If Jerry Springer existed right now, it would just be clips all day long. 32nd Jerry Springer clips all day. Someone could go do that with their library right now.

[Emma Willman]

And we. It wouldn't even stand out as that. Bizarre.

[Ryan Sickler]

No.

[Emma Willman]

For the stuff that you see now. No, hell, no, hell, like, it's like that stuff at the time. I mean, you're young just watching it. You know, I slept with my. I cheated on my uncle with my grandfather. And you're like, like, this is crazy. But so we would watch that, and it's very sexual. So then we go, oh, let's see what else we can. You know, we would learn about, like, strippers and sex workers and that. And so we would go up. We would Google boobs. And I remember him being too. Once. He was like. He was like, if you want to Google penis, I can just go in another room. He was, what a night. It was nice.

[Ryan Sickler]

He was you being like, no, I'm looking because I'm a lady and I want to know, like, what are you. How's. What's your angle for that?

[Emma Willman]

I think I was trying to act like, no, it's cool. Like, I'm. I'm friends with you, so I'll do what you want. And he's like, but I'm saying, you know, have, like, feel free to do what you want.

[Ryan Sickler]

I'd be like, but what age are you when you just know how young.

[Emma Willman]

Where I really articulated to myself. So I had more of a clear sense of it when I was like, in elementary school, but then in high school, I just went so deep in the closet. And I had. I had boyfriends, but I kept telling myself, okay, you're not attracted to them, but you will be once you have sex. But. But I didn't want to have sex, so I made a big deal out of saying I wasn't gonna have sex till I got married. Okay, I did that.

[Ryan Sickler]

Which also aligns with the Christian against the gays. And all these things you got going on over there. Which facade.

[Emma Willman]

I remember my mom saying, you got to go on birth control, you got to get condoms, because you don't know. You get caught up in the heat of the moment. And I was like, there's no. There's no heat. There's no moment. Like, don't worry about that. So it wasn't. I just was not, like, tempted to have sex.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yes.

[Emma Willman]

Because I was Gay.

[Ryan Sickler]

But his manager said to me, he, because I asked him, he's like, you can ask me. And I was like, good, because I. I want to know. I don't want to learn from Jerry Springer.

[Emma Willman]

Right?

[Ryan Sickler]

What is it? When did you know you were a gay man? He's like, when did you know you liked girls? And I said I knew I had like crush feelings on girls in like first grade.

[Emma Willman]

Do you remember your very first crush?

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah, I. Absolutely.

[Emma Willman]

Who was it?

[Ryan Sickler]

Her name was Brandy.

[Emma Willman]

And are you. Do you still follow her on Facebook? Where is she now?

[Ryan Sickler]

I swear to God, I genuinely have. This is, this is first grade, right? I have no idea.

[Emma Willman]

Isn't that crazy?

[Ryan Sickler]

She's a woman now. Probably a grandmom or something, right? Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

Little Ryan, like first grade, little you. And your brain starts clocking like, I'm gonna give her a rock or whatever

[Ryan Sickler]

it is and you know, pass notes.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

And all these things in first grade. And. And then he said the same thing. He's like, that's when I realized, like I liked boys.

[Emma Willman]

Oh. So he was like first, second grade.

[Ryan Sickler]

He knew. He didn't come out either, but he knew, he knew what he was interested in and it wasn't girls for him. And then he goes, this is, this is when it clicks clicked for me, I'm embarrassed to say how old I was when I finally went, oh yeah. He goes, you know how when you go out with a lady and you know if you've got a respectable woman, you're gonna court her for a little while? Sure. You might not even get the sex ever, but sometimes you do. He goes, imagine I said, shut up. Me taking my testosterone chain train and another one coming right at it and kaboom. He goes, yep. And I was like, I totally get, I totally get if my match this.

[Emma Willman]

Right.

[Ryan Sickler]

I get it.

[Emma Willman]

Totally.

[Ryan Sickler]

I had never put not one and one is two. It was like, right? I don't even. One and one is one, right? What the was? Penis. Penis. Penis. It made so much sense right away. And then he also said, you know, about people saying it's a choice and all this. He's like, do you think a person would choose to get ridiculed, beat to death, you know? And I was like, God, dude.

[Emma Willman]

Also if we just.

[Ryan Sickler]

So just that simple conversation is enough for any normal open minded person to

[Emma Willman]

go, oh yeah, I get it. Right. I get it. And especially then someone makes sense that math is math and it's someone you know. So you're like, you see them as a person. It's not this vague concept where you go, they're trying to change me.

[Ryan Sickler]

I'm also not eating sushi across the table from this man, imagining him something. Or the way I don't. With another lady. I don't see her chugging dicks or some crap. Like.

[Emma Willman]

Well, I'm like, sometimes when I am talking to gay guys, it's only gay guys. I will start picturing on that who's.

[Ryan Sickler]

Who's.

[Emma Willman]

Who. It's like an impulsive thought and I gotta stop doing that. I gotta. Especially if I can't.

[Ryan Sickler]

But they're all so pretty. A lot of the guys I sit across from, like, I don't want to know what that guy's doing with his penis.

[Emma Willman]

You gotta.

[Ryan Sickler]

Whatever.

[Emma Willman]

Maybe you shouldn't watch Heated Ravelry then. I mean, they're gonna let you know what they're doing with the. That their penis. But there was. There is that moment where you're like, you just start to. I. I segmented it off and like, didn't let myself even go there too. But I remember I. I would have. I was really obsessed with like Disney princesses and stuff. Like. Or the Backstreet Boys. I wanted to be one of them, but I wouldn't even let my brain think it because I didn't want to not have my friends.

[Ryan Sickler]

In high school, once you started, like, getting to puberty and realizing your body and stuff, who's your first female crush? My very first celebrity or someone at school, like, who are you smitten for?

[Emma Willman]

I was really smitten for this girl Sadie. And I remember she was in my gym class. So we would be getting changed around each other and I would be so weird about it, where I'd be like, oh, I'm not looking at you. Like, I'm gonna. I'll go outside while you're changing. And she'd be like, what? Like, I was just so. I'd be like bright red because I'm like, oh my God. Like that. And I always. I'd like, bring her little snacks and stuff. Like, so I had a crush, but I wasn't really letting myself realize that. But she was my first, like, in person crush. But then I would get crushes on. I was obsessed with Nala from the Lion King. I would get little crushes on actresses that I saw who.

[Ryan Sickler]

That we would know. Like a celebrity or whatever. Anybody on a TV show.

[Emma Willman]

Weird. Because I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more.

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[Emma Willman]

Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. I've always been attracted, I've always wanted to know that the person's like a little bisexual, right? So I kind of had a crush on Lindsay Lohan when she was dating Samantha Ronson because it was like a green flag. But I like that girl from the lead singer of the Pussycat Doll Girls. You remember her?

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah, Nicole.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah, I remember she loosened up my buttons, but I remember that and like watching her like kind of come through the screen, I remember thinking oh yeah, I like that, I like that. And then I would go on AOL and pretend to be a guy and have little girlfriends. Like I would do stuff like that.

[Ryan Sickler]

Oh yeah.

[Emma Willman]

Oh, lots of age, sex, location. Did you do that?

[Ryan Sickler]

No. You didn't do that?

[Emma Willman]

Okay. Because I guess that came out when I was graduate.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah, I'm graduating college in 96. The Internet is one year old. I'm gone.

[Emma Willman]

But in a way isn't that nice that you weren't worrying doing any of that? Cuz I thank God that.

[Ryan Sickler]

Thank God none of these videos are all for bid. If I saw my 7th or 10th grade thoughts or something, none of us, none of us would be anywhere.

[Emma Willman]

I remember when a digital camera came out I had would take all my. I would get my Adderall prescription filled once a month my friend Sarah Herrick would take all my Adderalls and put them in our hands and we would take pictures with the digital camera and and then I snorting it and just thank God we, because we would have posted it. We would look at what we're up to just driving around, smoking cigarettes, getting stoned. Thank God we wouldn't have posted that or we weren't just, like, scrolling and consuming stuff. We got to, like, live a little bit. I mean, look, it wasn't like we were doing the best job. We were snorting Adderall, missing, you know, sports games or whatever. Snorting? What was that? What did Anna Nicole Smith die of? Fen. Fen Fin was some type of diet pill.

[Ryan Sickler]

Femme was a big diet pill.

[Emma Willman]

It was, and it's illegal now. I used to pop a bunch of those and go play soccer.

[Ryan Sickler]

I got a 711 and like that.

[Emma Willman]

And then go play soccer for a. A D3 soccer team.

[Ryan Sickler]

Your heart even more. You're a girl after my own heart. And there was no what school?

[Emma Willman]

This was at my tiny little high school. So it's also a D3. Tiny High School. There's no stakes. There's no reasons to be that geeked out. I see. But I would be pumping myself up and then go running around scoring like, 3, 4. I was really bad. Really bad.

[Ryan Sickler]

Just fast and around there.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah, Just busy, really. Just busy doing a lot of. What the is am I doing?

[Ryan Sickler]

Wait, I have a question for you, please. The first person you come out to.

[Emma Willman]

To very first person.

[Ryan Sickler]

Is that the same first experience you have with a lady?

[Emma Willman]

It wasn't.

[Ryan Sickler]

It was.

[Emma Willman]

I had this friend, Megan, and she had come out, and she went to school. She was like, a couple years older than me. And I made out with someone once. I remember I was, like, hammered. And there was this girl named Ren who was, like, from a. She's from a couple towns over. And I would. I had this friend of mine, Tom. I said, tom, I heard this girl, Ren's gonna be at this party. Let's go. And he was like, ren the lesbian. And I was like, oh, well, never mind. Sorry. And then he was like, all right. No, let's just go. We'll go.

[Ryan Sickler]

Ren the lesb and the lesbian kids

[Emma Willman]

and their cute nicknames. Poor. It's like, you look back. The nicknames that we would give each other as kids.

[Ryan Sickler]

We called a kid Tarer. I think about it a lot. This kid had all over his teeth. And we would be like, shut the up, Tart. No pressure. And then his nickname became Tart.

[Emma Willman]

What was his real name?

[Ryan Sickler]

It was Brian, I think it was. And we called him tartar into high school. And. And it was. Got to the point where he would, like, grit his teeth and go, I don't got this no more, man. But he would fess up that he did. You know what I mean? We would laugh, like, shut the up. You're tartar.

[Emma Willman]

Tartar. Tartar, Tartar, tartar. I love that. The next brutal. Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

And it's with you for life.

[Emma Willman]

Oh, it's with you for life. You can't shape that. Someone's going ordering some tartar sauce, and he's just, like, flinching in a corner. Like, that stays. There was this kid who would. He was in special with me for a little bit, but he would honestly hump trees every now at recess. And so they would call him, like, tree humper John. But that was in elementary school. And this poor. That was going on. People were calling. If I ran into him in town today, I. You know, you just. It's just in your head. It's probably, you know, his wife and kids, like, what. What did you used to do? He stays with you. I. So I told. I made out with this girl Ren. I made out with lesbian Ren.

[Ryan Sickler]

Is this your first?

[Emma Willman]

First kiss? I'm hammered, wasted. I remember making out with Ren and then going and puking in a corner. Corner. And then the next day, I told Megan, but I was so. I was, like, forlorn about it. I was like, what have I done? And she was like, it's okay. And she was like, you're gonna. I was a senior in high school. She goes, you're gonna get out of town, and then you can, like, be out. And she also said. She goes, you. She said, don't just be with the first lesbian you meet. Don't do that. She goes, give yourself some space, because they're gonna move in, and it might not be someone you like. And I did not take that advice.

[Ryan Sickler]

You did.

[Emma Willman]

The second I met the second it was this girl Angela, and she was. She was bad news. I got to campus, and she. I remember her seeing me, and I like very feminine women. Angela was very sporty.

[Ryan Sickler]

You like the Nicole.

[Emma Willman]

Like, no hints of masculinity. Like, not like. Not even, like, the. By any standard today.

[Ryan Sickler]

Give me an example today.

[Emma Willman]

Oh, my celebrity crushes now.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

Okay. So my celebrity crush now. I was just thinking about this. I would say my celebrity crushes now. You know, with all love and respect for my girlfriend, of course, Jennifer Tilly, I think, is so cute.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

Trina. Remember Trina? Trina, the baddest. Yeah, the rapper.

[Ryan Sickler]

I didn't until you just said it.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah, I saw her. On whose podcast? I saw her on some podcast because she's funny, but she's feminine, but she kind of commands Respect. So I like. I like that type of vibe. I like that type of vibe.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay.

[Emma Willman]

And then also there's this porn star called Crystal Lust, who's like, a real curvy Latina. And I always. I had a crush on her, but then my girlfriend ruined it for me because she goes, crystal Hus. Because I genuinely believed. I genuinely believed in her porns, that she liked, her sexual encounters. Then my girlfriend watched, and she goes, that. That woman is miserable. And so now I'm like, ugh, I don't have a crush on her anymore. I thought she really, you know, you

[Ryan Sickler]

need him to be into it.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah, I believed it. I really believed it. I don't. Maybe my girlfriend was just, you know, being a hater that day, but. So that was my celebrity.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay.

[Emma Willman]

Who's your celebrity? Crazy Crash.

[Ryan Sickler]

I don't really have one. I don't really. Yeah, no.

[Emma Willman]

Did you ever see the show Southland with the LA Cops?

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah. It was on TV for a while, and it got picked up again. It's on fx, and it's on something else now.

[Emma Willman]

It's on Netflix. They're replaying it. But Regina, the lead actress in that, I thought. I really liked her. Yeah. And my girlfriend was like, oh, she seems kind of masculine for you, but not in. Not an interview. She's, like, very, like, feminine. So I, like, know. So Ren was the. Ren was a little sporty. And then Angela was real sporty. I got to campus. It's like my first day in Boston. I'm standing out in the college quad, and this. This. She was not. She'd kind of bulldike energy. I.

[Ryan Sickler]

You know, you can say whatever you want. I'm just gonna sit over here.

[Emma Willman]

Don't blink. Don't blink. She had this kind of bulldike energy. And I remember I'm on the quad, and she pointed him. She goes, you. You. You're gay. And I was like, who is Jesus Christ just outside, like that romantic. I know.

[Ryan Sickler]

She was a beast out.

[Emma Willman]

Just calling me out. But she was doing that to other people, too. Angela lasted, I'd say, about six weeks into college before she got kicked out for smoking crack. I swear to God. I know. Isn't that rough? At a. At a. At Simmons College. Little private school.

[Ryan Sickler]

Getting in there, too.

[Emma Willman]

Just getting in. But now I think she's doing great. I. I looked her up online the other day. She's like an attorney in Florida. Good for her. For her. But she was. She came in. She made the most of that time. She was hooking up with tons of people on campus. She was, was, she was outing people for, you know, like, if I hadn't met her, I don't know if I would have come out so soon.

[Ryan Sickler]

Oh, I see. She would be like, oh, yeah, you're gay.

[Emma Willman]

They're gay. That's gay. That's gay. And then she goes, come over, make out with me. And I, and I. That was the first person I. Girl I had sex with. Woman I had sex with.

[Ryan Sickler]

And I remember the, the one that was bullying you.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

Really?

[Emma Willman]

Yeah. And I remember, I go, I don't like her, but I am gay. And we were watching the movie Requiem for a Dream.

[Ryan Sickler]

What a weird movie to quite an ending for the two of you.

[Emma Willman]

It was.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

But I, I remember, I remember being like, I'm gay. And then I was out, like, immediately. But I didn't tell my parents for, like, a while because I felt, I felt a lot, I felt a lot of shame, too, around. I really care what my dad thinks.

[Ryan Sickler]

I was going to ask you who you told first.

[Emma Willman]

I told my mom first because I really care what my dad thinks. And I, I, I really didn't want him to be upset, and I didn't want my mom to be upset either. But I told her, I told her it was kind of a shitty way. We went to a. She had, it was. She had ovarian cancer and she was recovering from it, and her and I were not very close. I think I had a deep resentment that when my dad, when they got divorced, I still, I had a lot of resentments about the way my sister and I were split up. So I felt, like, a lot of anger towards her. She gets cancer. I wasn't really there for her when she had the cancer. She goes through it. She's in recovery, doing the chemo. We go to a silent meditation retreat street. And I came out to her at the silent meditation.

[Ryan Sickler]

Jesus, you're your daughter's father. Yeah, I mean, you're your father's daughter is. What I mean is you and your dad have no good time.

[Emma Willman]

And I hadn't thought of that until right now. Yeah, I probably did it in the car too. She goes, ah, Jesus, the. And I look a lot like my dad.

[Ryan Sickler]

Meditation where she can't even ask questions or say anything.

[Emma Willman]

No, we're sitting across from each other.

[Ryan Sickler]

Oh, my God.

[Emma Willman]

I whispered it to her and she went, what? Yeah. And then, and then we talked about a little bit that night, but she said, you know, she had a lot of, she had lots of questions. And then I said, don't tell any. Do not tell anybody. And she was upset and surprised. And I was more. I was fine with that. But I was scared to tell my dad. I just didn't him and I. Because also, I think with my mom, she's. She's very, like. She's talked about politics where, like, I know she was liberal. My dad is liberal, but I don't think I'd heard him talk about politics before. We definitely never talk about a gay anything.

[Ryan Sickler]

I was going to say, do you ever hear anything about gay around. Around the house? Nothing.

[Emma Willman]

One time, I remember talking about this guy. There was this guy who was special needs. And I go, man. I go, he. He. Special needs and he's deaf. And I was like, he. You know, that's. He's got stacked against him. Really nice guy. I was like, what a nice guy. And I was like, he's got such a good attitude and, like, positive light, and he's got these things. I go, and you know what? Maybe he's gay, too. And I was like, so he's got a bunch of stuff. I said this at the time, which I. You know, I was probably in, like, high school. I said, he's got a bunch of stuff wrong with them. I remember saying that. I wouldn't say that. Now. My dad goes, there's nothing wrong with someone for being gay. And he's like, or the other things, either. He was. I was like, well, I just mean it would be harder. And he goes, it could be harder. And I. I kind of remembered him saying something, but it's. It's harder to not be yourself. And I was like, maybe, but. So I had that hint. But other than that, I had no idea. So I waited, and I had my. My bad stepmom at the time. I told her first, and then she told my dad, but she didn't tell me my dad had.

[Ryan Sickler]

Carol.

[Emma Willman]

No, Cynthia.

[Ryan Sickler]

Now Cynthia.

[Emma Willman]

Cynthia was a.

[Ryan Sickler]

She stole your thumb.

[Emma Willman]

She stole the thunder. She. I told her I. She. I had this girlfriend, like, come visit. I'm like, it's my friend. Like, and obviously we were a couple. And Cynthia asked. And then I was like, don't tell dad. Don't tell dad. And then my dad was gonna leave her, and she was like, I have to tell you something about Emma. Like, I think she was trying to use it to show, look, I'm close with Emma. They had been together for, like, maybe 12 years at that point. And she was awful. She was so mean to me. She was so mean. She'd always call me stupid. And I think I had a lot of resentment around my dad for bringing her into the house. But him and I have since worked on that. I was. I'm so impressed because I think a lot about guys in his generation. So he's like 70. And I think about, you know, men and what they were taught for communicating and not communi. Being communicating their feelings. Asked how they're feeling, knowing how to walk it off.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's the generation from. Too right. You're fine. Walk it off.

[Emma Willman]

Right?

[Ryan Sickler]

I don't want to hear it. Nobody cares.

[Emma Willman]

That was. I mean, that crazy has only been changing recently. So I'll think like, you know, I like my dad. He was like a overweight kid. They sent him off at like something crazy young, like seven to some boxing. Like eight month boxing school.

[Ryan Sickler]

There you go with the tooth.

[Emma Willman]

Here you go. Yeah, person. But I'll think about, you know, I just am like, oh, man. He didn't know how to like process his feelings or. And that's not me giving him an out. But like.

[Ryan Sickler]

No, I hear you. But you all. You realize we all do that we're looking at people who are like, oh my God. You genuinely had.

[Emma Willman]

He had no tools, nothing.

[Ryan Sickler]

You don't have that gear, right?

[Emma Willman]

Exactly.

[Ryan Sickler]

You're just move forward.

[Emma Willman]

You don't even know you need tools.

[Ryan Sickler]

I don't. What do you mean? Hurt. I don't have time.

[Emma Willman]

And it. And it was like. It's all like compounded with what, you know, his parents and all this stuff. So it's like, like, yeah, she was really shitty, but I don't know if he knew how to navigate that at all. And he's taken. He's like really apologized for it.

[Ryan Sickler]

So how did he handle it when.

[Emma Willman]

So I. I was so nervous. We're sitting on the porch. I'm like, you know, can't. I'm not looking at him.

[Ryan Sickler]

And how old are you?

[Emma Willman]

I would have been in my first year of college. And he was like. So him and Cynthia had broken up at this point and she went apesh. She's calling me all the time. She's like, your father cheated on me. He's a bad person. Like he. She was telling me all this info that I shouldn't have known. And I wasn't talking to him at. I was like nervous. I wasn't talking to him just because I felt weird. I had this secret from him, but. So it was this weird thing where Cynthia and I aren't close suddenly. I'm talking to Cynthia all the time, but she was just using me to then have a wedge to my dad to say, hey, Emma and I are close. Like, she wanted. She didn't want my dad to break up with.

[Ryan Sickler]

With her.

[Emma Willman]

So my dad goes, cynthia, you know, told me you guys are talking. And she said. Then he, like, said a bunch of stuff that she said I said. And I was like, actually, it was like, lies. It wasn't true. He was like, she said that, you know, you don't. You don't love me anymore. And you're just. You just are only keep me in your life because I still pay for your phone. You're on the family plan. And I was like, she said that? And I was like, what a. And then I'm like, I don't. I really don't think I did say that, but I probably. Maybe I said something like, why you gotta keep talking to me? Page of the phone plan pays for my phone plan. Ryan. I'm still in the family plan.

[Ryan Sickler]

Wait, right now?

[Emma Willman]

Yeah. I'm 40. I know. And you know why? I just remember that? Cuz I lost my phone.

[Ryan Sickler]

You got to call him for password.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah, but get this. So this is like two weeks ago. It's. My brother's on it too. My half brother and I aren't close. We don't talk. The poor lady at. At&t goes.

[Ryan Sickler]

She goes, you know, I'm sorry.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

You guys are on a family phone plan and you don't. Don't.

[Emma Willman]

My brother and I. Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

And you don't communicate, so you're on a plan to communicate with each.

[Emma Willman]

And I had to explain this to the poor AT T woman. And I lo. I've lost my phone a lot. Like, I'm causing problems in the family plan. So I'm like, I can't take my brother's upgrade. I can't take my dad's one. But my dad will call and he'll let me in. Bob, show that Emma's on the account. So I go in and he's not picking up his phone. It was in the summer. So I go, he's retired now. I go, I know what he's doing. He's on his lawnmower and he's got a lot of lawn. So I was like, it's gonna take a couple hours. And the woman's like, well, you can just call this person right here looks like a Wiley woman, your brother. I go, oh, yeah. And I don't talk so much because you can't call your brother and your family plan. I said, we're not that Kind of family. So I had to. Different kind of family. I just sat there until my bro. My dad got off the. And I was like, he's mowing the lawn. And then he finally. He called, and he was like, I was on the tractor. And I was like, what's the passcode to get into the. So that's how. How we. That's how we got into it. But. So I told him, we're sitting out in the porch, and he said, you know. You know, Cynthia said, you're just talking to me. The only reason, like, you haven't fully cut me out is you're on that. You're on that family plan. And I was like, oh, she's such a. And he was like. And she also told me something else that I wish she hadn't only because that could be a special moment for us. And I'm like, what? Like, I was just like, what? Like, oh, crap. And he was like, she told me that you're in a relationship with a woman. And I was like, how do you feel about that? And he was like, it doesn't matter. Really matter how I feel about that. I was like, it does matter how you feel about that. And then I said something like. I was like, if you have a real problem with it, I'll walk it back. If you have a real problem with it all, figure it out. And. And he was like, you shouldn't give anybody that power. And I was like. But I was like, if you really, you know, want to make a case for it, you know, I'll. I'll see what I can do. I don't know what I would have done. And he was like, you shouldn't, like, don't ever let someone. He. He was like, you got. There's two ways to live life. Either be yourself or you don't. And one of them is going to kill you or something like that. So he was. I would say that's, like, the best response someone could have. He did say, don't. I remember he was like, don't cut your hair, though. Something like that. Had long hair at the time. But then it's like, you know, you start. I think also sometimes it's like parents trying to hold on to the person that they know. Like, I had a friend that transitioned, and his mom said. She was like, I am. She was like, the thing is, I just miss your name. I gave you your other name, and I missed that. And she's like, but it's like, I have a new. A new version of you now. But that was a moment for me where I was like, oh, I get that. I get that.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's nice you to see that, because I see that either, you know, the mom who named her kid James or whatever. God damn it, I miss calling you James. Called you James first forever.

[Emma Willman]

And I love James. It's like, I love that person.

[Ryan Sickler]

Interesting thing. Yeah. It's a burial in a way, where they're still here. And it's. I had not even considered that missing just calling them by their birth name.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah, right. And I get that.

[Ryan Sickler]

Totally.

[Emma Willman]

I. So I under. And I understand, too. Like, I understand when parents, like, oh, you know, it'll be harder or whatever, but the truth is, if you're not, I mean, think how intense, like, sex and relationships are. So being with someone who doesn't line up with what you want, that's. That's brutal. Brutal. So after that, it was, like, pretty smooth sailing, but I was in a series of so many, like, bad relationships. So it was like, my parents were not homophobic at all, but they didn't like a lot of my girlfriends, if that makes sense.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah. What were you bringing home to the moms and dads?

[Emma Willman]

I just didn't know who I was, so I didn't know what I would want in a partner. So I was just going with anybody that I was attracted to that liked me, and then modifying how I was to try to win them over instead of thinking, who am I? And are we a good fit? And then that would end so badly because I'm in a relationship with someone I shouldn't be in a relationship with, and then it blows up.

[Ryan Sickler]

I just want to make you feel better about yourself here. That is not exclusive to lesbians.

[Emma Willman]

Yes.

[Ryan Sickler]

Every one of us.

[Emma Willman]

Right.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay, now I have to start figuring out how to talk to these people I like, find them. I have to learn who I am, be a better person. Oh, my God. I don't like that. I do like this. I'm into that. I'm not into that.

[Emma Willman]

Oh, and someone can be great. Doesn't mean they're right for you.

[Ryan Sickler]

No doubt.

[Emma Willman]

Because then you can go, oh, this person's awesome. But that doesn't mean we should be together. And then I don't know how you've handled breakups before. I used to be really bad. Like, the worst of me would come out in them.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

It's tough.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

Because I look back, I go, oh, yeah, I was mean sometimes in. In the way that I would leave. But it was a lot of times those people I shouldn't have been with necessarily. I was just. I didn't know who I was. I didn't know what I liked. I only started learning about the types of things I like in the past like six years. Like, I like. I like going for a walk. I like crystals. I like red light therapy. I like health stuff, you know, I like that. I like learning about that stuff as we're getting older.

[Ryan Sickler]

I like health.

[Emma Willman]

That's it too. The chiropractor.

[Ryan Sickler]

This feel better? Just head to toe.

[Emma Willman]

Exactly.

[Ryan Sickler]

Chiropractic you just said. Okay, so my.

[Emma Willman]

My favorite.

[Ryan Sickler]

My porn. My new porn.

[Emma Willman]

Oh my God, the cracks.

[Ryan Sickler]

Ring dingers.

[Emma Willman]

What's Ring Dingers?

[Ryan Sickler]

Ring dingers. I'm a woman. This is a guy started in Houston. I want to give him credit. They're all doing it now. But he's. You lay on the table and you have your. You have your legs in a 90 degree angle and he's got your hips locked, okay. Then he folds a towel around your neck and he pulls your neck so that the goes out. Your waist doesn't move. It's just. I watch it, I watch compilations. But the Y strap is because that's the one where they put it on your chin and they pull you, but your body slides. It doesn't really get you. You got a whole.

[Emma Willman]

You're connoisseur now.

[Ryan Sickler]

So I just got a vertical chair.

[Emma Willman]

You know the ones where you spin and it, it decompresses the spine.

[Ryan Sickler]

I was like, this is gonna be some.

[Emma Willman]

I cannot wait to start doing that. Like, I want. I. I have fantasies about. I wanna. Part of why I want to move to Ellie is to have more space so I, I can. I want to get a decompression chair. I think that's legit.

[Ryan Sickler]

My fantasy, my non sexual fantasy is to be suspended. I know this is going to sound sexual. Just let my ankles. But far enough down where you can also have like cables to my wrist so that I'm suspended midair. And then I want to gently be rung like a wash rack and stretched and twisted.

[Emma Willman]

Is that a thing they do that I don't.

[Ryan Sickler]

No one's doing that. I watch another guy, this Asian dude that he'll sit you down, he'll tie your waist, waist. And then he puts this like it looks like underwear like briefs around your head. And he cranks it and you just keep going up. And then when the people go, oh, that's when he goes. And he comes down. I'm like, I'm watching.

[Emma Willman]

We gotta find a way to get you a Ring dinger.

[Ryan Sickler]

But the.

[Emma Willman]

It does sound so sexual. Ring dinger. A ring dinger. It sounds like some, like, special move that they're. Yeah, it sounds like some specialty type of blow job that some dominatrix who's, like, wants to retire. And she. She's like, smoking.

[Ryan Sickler]

She almost did that to make your dad leave the family for five months.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah. Get you in and out in five minutes. I'll give you a good old ring dinger. And then just like.

[Ryan Sickler]

But that invert table, like, I've had back surgery. I have. No one's ever been able to pop me going right, left, ever.

[Emma Willman]

Really?

[Ryan Sickler]

I've been waiting. I have felt like I've needed this one release for forever.

[Emma Willman]

That's how I feel when I watch those things. I want.

[Ryan Sickler]

I got in that chair popped. Wow. Not only did it pop, I got a little, little, little one. At first I was like, okay. And as I'm hanging there, I do it for three minutes and I'm. I'm doing five now.

[Emma Willman]

Nice.

[Ryan Sickler]

It went, Bob. To the point where I was nervous at first, and then I was like, oh, my God. And I hung there a little longer and bomb. One more. And I was yelling. I was like, yeah. My daughter was like. I was like, yes. And there's still one more. I need that third one.

[Emma Willman]

Oh, God.

[Ryan Sickler]

And now, like, if I could put it on. This is me now. If I could put it on top of a table where I could invert it. Because your arms do hit the floor.

[Emma Willman]

Right.

[Ryan Sickler]

You need more, like, less space under you so you could hang more.

[Emma Willman]

Got it, got it, got it.

[Ryan Sickler]

You could even grab a kettlebell for weight and pull yourself down. I'm over. I'm at home doing it non stop. I popped it last night before bed.

[Emma Willman]

It went. It's almost like you need to be, like, over the edge of something.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yes.

[Emma Willman]

But safely, obviously.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah, Clearly I'm gonna be out there rigging some up over my balcony and stuff.

[Emma Willman]

It's gonna be the first person and. And people are gonna think it's some. What was that thing where people used to choke themselves out and then they would die?

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah, auto erotica. Yeah, you said used to you thinking

[Emma Willman]

they're still doing it, but it's gonna look something. Like something's gonna go wrong and they're gonna think it's like some sexual thing. But yeah, I love that. But that's my fun now. But I didn't know I liked that stuff where I'm like, okay, these are the things I like. This is something I don't Like, I don't drink anymore. So it's like. Like, my girlfriend loves to go out dancing, but she's not a big drinker. But we don't. She doesn't need. Like, I was talking to a friend the other day, and they were like, I would want a big. A pillar for me would be being with someone that did like to go out dancing. So that's not like a pillar to my girlfriend. Like, we don't. We like keeping that stuff separate. But I didn't have. I mean, I didn't really have a. I didn't have a representation of healthy relationships, romantic ones, ever, really. My dad and my stepmom now, I would say, are in a great relationship. Yeah, my stepmom now is great. Right. Okay. And the first I'd say, like, it's interest.

[Ryan Sickler]

Excuse me. Interesting. You still say stepmom. I've thought about this too. How long have you known her?

[Emma Willman]

I would say now about 15 years.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay. All right.

[Emma Willman]

What would you call her?

[Ryan Sickler]

Well, I don't know. Maybe you're my dad's wife or third wife.

[Emma Willman]

Really. No, you can't call your. You can't say your dad's third wife if to her face.

[Ryan Sickler]

No, no, no, no, no, no.

[Emma Willman]

Because she's great. But I'm saying you can't say your dad's third wife.

[Ryan Sickler]

Hear me out. If you're an adult. I'm saying if you're. If you're 20 and your dad. Dad gets married again for a third time.

[Emma Willman]

Right.

[Ryan Sickler]

I don't think that person's a by.

[Emma Willman]

I see.

[Ryan Sickler]

Title. They are but a stepmom to me

[Emma Willman]

or dad raised you a little bit.

[Ryan Sickler]

It steps in and helped during a period where you really needed it. So I, like, my mom got married to a man later, and they've got to earn my stepdad.

[Emma Willman]

Right.

[Ryan Sickler]

You know, I mean, I'm 30 years old, you know, I mean, it's just my mom's. I don't say new. I just say husband.

[Emma Willman]

That makes sense. Yeah. Hi, husband number three.

[Ryan Sickler]

And it's nice of you to bring her in like that and say that. Yeah, dude, I. I did tell him she had killed two before. I did tell him.

[Emma Willman]

God, he's dead. Parents getting remade. I did. I put my. I put her through the ringer. When she first got with my dad, I remember she sat down and she was like, look, I know you and your dad are really close. And she was like, I know that the person before me wasn't great. And I said, let me stop you right There I go. You know, he's cheated on every single person he's been with. And I appreciate that you're trying to win me over. And I was like, but. But just. I don't know if you. Why you think you would be different, but, like, just know what you're getting into. My dad was sitting there and he was just like. Like, he didn't say, like, can it or anything, so he let me say that. And she was like, I hear you, but. So I. I did call her my stepmom for years, but I didn't mean it. Now I do really feel that way. I would say in the past, like 10 years. But I hadn't thought about this until you said this. I remember I had borrowed her car. It was like. Like my junior year of college, I had borrowed her car. Small town. So I get pulled over. I know the cop, and he goes, whose car? Says. I go, my stepmom's car. It was a routine stop. And he goes, okay, what's her name? And I went, ooh. I said, is that right? Yeah. They hadn't gotten married yet, so I was just calling her my stepmom. I go. I go, this is funny. I was like, I. I don't know her name. He goes, you don't know your stepmother's name? I go, my dad hasn't married her yet, but I can tell they're going to get married. Married. And he was like. He was like, get out. You know? And he was like, emma, what are you doing?

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

And he was like, are you.

[Ryan Sickler]

Like, he knows. Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah, yeah, right? I had to do like a. The drug, the test, all that, because he luck I wasn't drinking, but he was like. I was like, I do not. I don't know. But then because it was also such a small town, he like, pulled it. And he goes, is this La Quartermarsh's car? And I go, it is. And he goes, okay. Like, we'll call her, you know? He's like, I know her. She worked at the main Maritime Academy. This was small town coming into effect. But. But I had that moment. I said, stepmom's car. And who's that? And I go, well, you got me there. So there was. I started just saying that pretty quick, but then I did start, like, meaning it. And they do have a healthy relationship, which, I mean, good for my dad because I don't think he's at a representation of a healthy relationships when he was little either. That stuff does a number on you in ways you don't Realize you keep recreating the patterns, but then when you become aware of it, you got to do something.

[Ryan Sickler]

Then you got to break them.

[Emma Willman]

Then you got to break them in, got to break the cycle.

[Ryan Sickler]

We've already done an hour. Would you be comfortable telling me about

[Emma Willman]

what I would tell my 16 year old self?

[Ryan Sickler]

No, I want, I mean, would you be comfortable doing a few more minutes and of course I ask for, you know, log lines when you come in.

[Emma Willman]

Absolutely.

[Ryan Sickler]

You tried to kill yourself and maybe we can talk about that and then we can wrap up on a positive note for people. Are you comfortable doing it?

[Emma Willman]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Ryan Sickler]

What happened and why are we doing this?

[Emma Willman]

So I did try to kill myself a couple, couple times. So the very first, the very very. The first time was the most intense. But there was. I went through a little melodramatic period where I was like, I was away at this. I was like really, really depressed. And my. The bad stepmom sent me away. The mean one, she sent me away. And I remember I would try to like hang myself, but not really. Like, I would like tie like a jump rope or something around my neck and around the door and then I would kind of like sit like the

[Ryan Sickler]

inside of your bedroom or something like that.

[Emma Willman]

Inside of my bed, dorm room, I would just sit. There'd be like a little bit of tension, but not much. And I would just kind of like sit there for like 10 minutes and like kind of do that and then I go and take it off. Like very, very.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's how I crack my neck now.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah, I was practicing for that. Yeah, it's true. You got to be careful. So I would. But that wasn't.

[Ryan Sickler]

So the first one.

[Emma Willman]

You're.

[Ryan Sickler]

You don't really want to want the attention for.

[Emma Willman]

And I wouldn't tell anybody about it. So it was just me to myself, testing the waters. Because I thought, I want to get out of here.

[Ryan Sickler]

Seeing the red on your neck when you walk, I don't think I was

[Emma Willman]

doing it that hard.

[Ryan Sickler]

I don't think I was like, you're scratching.

[Emma Willman]

Scratching.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah, right, right.

[Emma Willman]

But I did then when I was, when I was in eighth grade, I remember it was so the bad stepmom, my dad and her got together real quick. It was like he. He introduces me to this woman and then within like maybe one or two months, she's moved in. And it's not just her, it's her daughter as well. Her daughter was great, but it was not the way for us to be meeting each other. Her daughter's moved into My sister's room. It happens really fast. And the stepmom starts being mean to me quick, too. She was a special ed teacher, and I had just been diagnosed with dyslexia. And she was like, you can never do school. You don't have, like, a future. Like, you're not. You're not. You're stupid.

[Ryan Sickler]

Special ed teachers telling you this.

[Emma Willman]

This here's.

[Ryan Sickler]

What do you think she's telling those kids?

[Emma Willman]

Right? I know, but, you know, with her, she was so off and so obviously off. That's why I put it more on my dad. Right. Why would you have someone like that around a kid? Because she was. I mean, you would see it from. She's like. It's hard to think of one example to sum it up, but it's like she just. Around town, people were like, oof. Like, she. She sued the grocery store. She slipped and fell and then sued the grocery store story. She sued the high school because of something like that. She was just a lot and bad news. And she was always, like, walking around town with, like, lingerie. Like, she had this, like, lingerie that she would, like, wear around. It was just bizarre stuff. And she had this. My dad gave her this big ring. And I remember she would every. Like, she would catch my eye and then she would, like, go like this at me with the ring. Just was crazy. And I'd be like, yeah, fine. And she wouldn't let me eat with them. My dad go, we got. Let's tell Emma's dinner. And I'd be upstairs and I could hear. And she would go, emma, Emma, eight. And then I would just. I wouldn't contest it. And then she'd, like, leave me a plate out of food in front of my room sometimes.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

So she sucked. So I remember that. So she moves in quick. I realize I'm dyslexic. And add my emotional coping skill was binge eating. So I had. I was just binge eating constantly. I'm in this sixth cycle with Ring Dings or no Swiss rolls.

[Ryan Sickler]

Oh, I remember those.

[Emma Willman]

Oh, I used to take them and I would kind of of like, like tongue them a little bit. Ah. You know that they're so good.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's exactly what you're supposed to do.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah, it is. You remember those? The Little Debbies?

[Ryan Sickler]

I sure do. They were so. The fact that you're talking about tongue. Little Debbie, Little Debbie is the cakes.

[Emma Willman]

The cakes. I loved them. And I would go to different grocery store. There's only about four stores in town. I would go to different Ones and get different cake boxes. Such an addict. Such like. And also thinking. I've noticed with a lot of active people, it's like, you think other people. No one's cares how many freaking boxes of Little Debbies you. But I'd be sneaky about going to different ones. But I was in that binge eating cycle. Then I started drinking. I'm drinking all the time. I started getting in trouble at school. I'm shoplifting, love shoplifting. And I got caught for that. And they called my mom over, and it was like, my mom, my crazy stepmom, and my dad. And I listened to all of them talking about me, me. My dad lived in a dome. So I'm up in his office, but I can hear him. And my stepmom's really running the show. She goes, emma's a bad kid. Emma's this, Emma's that. And my dad and mom, I think we're kind of lost. And they were like, I. I got caught shoplifting a few things, and so I was going to get in trouble at school. And they were like, listening to her and she. My stepmom was kind of laying out the plan. And I thought, okay, I could get through this, but if I get through this next four years, then it's like, what's left for me? Because she had told me, like, you're stupid. Nothing. You know all this. So I started just popping Tylenol, and I was like, drinking vodka and popping Tylenol. You're up there while I'm up there.

[Ryan Sickler]

Oh, While they're talking.

[Emma Willman]

While they're talking.

[Ryan Sickler]

Oh.

[Emma Willman]

And I also used to do this thing where I would be like, binge eating and also then Googling, like, how to stop binge eating. So I'm like, binge eating honey bunches of oats constantly and like, all this other food, just like, eating, eating till I feel sick while I'm reading about, like, how to stop binge eating. And I thought, I just want to, you know, put a. I'm done. Like, it was kind of rational. As. As weird as that sounded, it was, I wasn't like, I gotta get out here of here. Like, I remember being like, okay, I could do this or do this, but I don't wanna. I don't wanna do this. So I take all this Tylenol. I wake up throwing up. I was ODing and I. I called out to my dad and stepmom, you wake up upstairs. I wake up in my. I was in my. I got to my bedroom, don't remember it. I wake Up. And I remember just throw up. Projectile throwing up. And my dad thought I took drugs because I remember he hit me. He goes, what'd you take? I said, tylenol. And he goes, wow, bubble, what you take dick? And I said, tylenol. And he was like, you gotta tell me. And I was like, I'm throwing up. I'm throwing up. He's big guy. And he went pow. Because he was like, you gotta tell me. And I was like, tylenol. And then I. He was kind of like, wait, really? Just Tylenol? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, why? You took too much? And I was like, yeah. And then they. They get the ambulance. And I remember I had a CD player. You remember Aaliyah?

[Ryan Sickler]

Of course.

[Emma Willman]

Okay. So I had this album that had a bunch of her songs on it. She had this song Try Again. And the album was scratched. So like the only. One of the only two songs it would play was that song Try Again. And I tried to kill myself. But now I'm in the ambulance listening to Try Again.

[Ryan Sickler]

No ever. I know you tried to kill yourself and I didn't.

[Emma Willman]

Try Again. And it just keeps going. At first you don't succeed. Brush yourself off. Try. And I remember. And I remember thinking that was funny.

[Ryan Sickler]

That is funny.

[Emma Willman]

I mean, I thought that was funny. I remember being in the. The ambulance. Kind of like terrible soundtrack to pull post suicide. I really remember song ever for post suicide.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's crazy.

[Emma Willman]

It is crazy.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's crazy. Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

And I remember thinking. I remember thinking like that and. But I remember thinking like, oh, you can have humor in the darkest places. Like I do remember that. All about just thinking that it is true. And you hear people say the most fucked up stuff and then something funny is in it. And that is. That is so beautiful. But. And like just. It's just. I guess that's just life. It's going to happen. So then it's like we can find a little shredder. Something funny in there. It's funny. Just. It's like we're. I'm grateful for us to have the perspective to like take that away from it too.

[Ryan Sickler]

You know, those are my people, the people that can look, I mean, listen, no one's asking you not to cry.

[Emma Willman]

Absolutely crying.

[Ryan Sickler]

So good not to be.

[Emma Willman]

Please cry right?

[Ryan Sickler]

Sit your own for a while. Understand it, figure it out. But eventually get up, move forward and find moments here and there to laugh. Cuz that builds character, builds strength.

[Emma Willman]

Yes.

[Ryan Sickler]

If you're able to look back at that and be like, oh my God. That moment that you're having, you're having that in it too. Which is, which is really present too. Especially for a comedic mind too.

[Emma Willman]

It was.

[Ryan Sickler]

Get the out of here.

[Emma Willman]

Right? Totally.

[Ryan Sickler]

Like just, come on.

[Emma Willman]

It was all skipped except for that. I said, you gotta be kidding me. You gotta be kidding me. But I really do, I really do believe that because it's almost like, like it's like you're operating on one plane of reality with all the pain. Then when something funny like that happens, it kind of snaps you out of that. And for me, I'll just use I statements like say I'm in my head thinking about myself. It kind of snaps me. And I go, get out, get over yourself.

[Ryan Sickler]

That's right.

[Emma Willman]

And then now I'll rearrange it. Go, go do something for someone else. And like that, you know, maybe I need to work on my self talk. But then that helps get me out of that, that self pity or whatever it is and snaps into something else. And humor will do that if something funny happens. Sometimes my girlfriend.

[Ryan Sickler]

Such a great reset.

[Emma Willman]

It's such a great reset. Like, are you in a relationship now? So we'll sometimes if we're arguing, we're having a disagreement about something. Well, if one of us just starts like puts out a joke in it,

[Ryan Sickler]

we start laughing, says something ridiculous, you're like, okay or an or away. Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

And that help, that helps.

[Ryan Sickler]

Finding humor to get out of it is. Yeah. Yes.

[Emma Willman]

It helps so much. That's made it. This is my longest, I think we've been together like six years. Like then, you know, just like being able to still laugh when we're in an argument is nice. It's nice, nice, nice reprieve. But that was me. I tried to kill myself. Then I had to go inpatient rehab and then I had to do outpatient rehab. And then I did not learn a lot of life skills from that.

[Ryan Sickler]

But did you ever try again? Were you?

[Emma Willman]

I never tried to that extent again, no.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay.

[Emma Willman]

But it did give me, I remember it gave me like a type of like suicidal ideation. I was like, oh, you will go there. But I remember there was like lots of moments where I would be like, think I have this really specific moment where I remember my friend's dad had this little sailboat where we were out sailing and it was like really choppy and I got scared and I thought, oh, I don't want to die. And I was like, oh, that was a nice. And I remember thinking, I remember thinking about peanut butter because I Was like there's such little things that can bring you joy even when you're stuck and stuff. I was like, I want to just have that, you know, you know, open the tea, peanut butter and have that first scoop. I want that, you know, like little things like that and I'm happy to be, be alive.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

Even when it's brutal. But so I started getting moments of that because all of a sudden I had something to compare it to because I tried to take that away from myself.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah.

[Emma Willman]

So that was, so.

[Ryan Sickler]

It was well said, take it away from yourself feel.

[Emma Willman]

Yeah. I always, I think about people that have done it, have actually successfully or if that's the right word, I don't know, to take in their life. And I, I just. Yeah, you wonder. I mean, you never really know what someone's going through or what they feel. And then depression, you know, affects your thinking. It really affects your. I've been more depressed now though than I was in that moment when I tried to kill myself. That was really me. I think that was a lot of fear, obviously, because I was scared. I go, who's this woman who suddenly is in control?

[Ryan Sickler]

You know, you've done better and well by yourself. Where you start to learn what's going on your mind and how you are and that, you know, maybe are different than this person over here. And I do things differently over here and figure out eventually what works for your computer. You know, we're all wired differently, you know.

[Emma Willman]

Yes.

[Ryan Sickler]

I'm so glad you, you did this and I'm so glad you're here.

[Emma Willman]

Me too. Thank you so much for having me.

[Ryan Sickler]

Can I ask you advice you would give to 16 year old Emma Wellman? Is it the same you were going to say?

[Emma Willman]

It is. All right, let's get it. It's. It's going to sound a little silly because it seems like an obvious one, but I used to love cigarettes, right. I love cigarettes. I love cigarettes so much and I still smoke them up until like five years ago.

[Ryan Sickler]

Okay.

[Emma Willman]

When I got the pneumonia. I got bacterial pneumonia like three months ago. Right. You have to do all these scans of your lungs. I'm in the hospital for lungs and your shortness of breath and all that stuff. I would go back and, and I see now like what, what smoking can do and I didn't get that because of smoking. Like there's so many reasons you can have that. But when you just become aware of your lungs. So I think with something like cigarettes I would do it and it doesn't immediately affect the outside and so if I used to. Something like that where it's like these little things you're doing that you think are just like, you See Now At 40, it's like I see all these little decisions and how they all build. I say, don't smoke those cigarettes. Learn how to take a damn walk. Learn how to take a break. Breath. Like, these things that you do that. The things that you do that you think, help yourself, take a minute that really hurt yourself. Don't. And you couldn't have told me anything about smoking cigarettes. And I go, what? I don't drink. Let me smoke. And I love smoking. But I'm so. Now I'm like, oh, my God, I can't. Life comes at you so quick with health stuff.

[Ryan Sickler]

Oh, man.

[Emma Willman]

So quick.

[Ryan Sickler]

So I would say you realize, oh, my God, like, if you don't feel bad, head. What you don't realize is how wonderful you feel until anything. Elbow, a tooth, a knee. Like, you're like, this hurts, man. Usually I feel pretty right.

[Emma Willman]

And our bodies are amazing. Like, all we're walking around doing our. But we're pumping blood.

[Ryan Sickler]

I want to hang upside down, snap my spine, get a crack. I think about it all the time. Like, to that medieval torture. At one point, before they rip you in half, your intestines are happening. You're looking at it at one point as a. Where you're like, yeah, that's funny.

[Emma Willman]

You should do a joke about this. This is there.

[Ryan Sickler]

Yeah. There's a moment right before they rip you in half. You're like, yeah, feels great.

[Emma Willman]

If you're gonna get ripped in half, get a crack. Get a crack in.

[Ryan Sickler]

Thank you so much.

[Emma Willman]

Thank you.

[Ryan Sickler]

Please, again. Right there. Promote anything you'd like.

[Emma Willman]

WW iman.com I'm on the road every weekend starting in the middle of March, and I would love to have you at a show and on Instagram, tik tok, Facebook. I always try to. I always try to write right back.

[Ryan Sickler]

All right, thank you very much. Thank you as always, Ryan Sickler on all your social media. We'll talk to you all next week.