376: Erik Kramer | The HoneyDew with Ryan Sickler #376 | Full Episode

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The HoneyDew with Ryan Sickler #376
Guest: Erik Kramer
Air Date: March 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this raw and deeply moving episode, host Ryan Sickler sits down with former NFL quarterback Erik Kramer to recount a decade of devastating personal trials—losing a son to addiction, surviving a suicide attempt, enduring the deaths of both parents, and being exploited during medical incapacitation. True to "The HoneyDew" spirit, Kramer shares his lowest lows, how he emerged from the darkness, and why he’s dedicated to helping others. The tone is honest, vulnerable, occasionally darkly funny, and ultimately hopeful.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introducing Erik Kramer and "The Ultimate Comeback"

[03:11]

• Erik introduces his book, "The Ultimate Comeback," co-authored with Bill Croyle, highlighting themes of survival, mental health, and purpose.

  "It's a wild tale. It deals with my upbringing, my son's struggle with drug dependency, losing both my son and my parents, and surviving a suicide attempt." — Erik Kramer

2. Family and Early Tragedies

[03:40 - 06:44]

• Kramer discusses his upbringing in Canoga Park, CA.
• Marriage, raising two sons—Griffin and Dylan.
• Constant relocations due to football career.
• Tumultuous marriage and its impact on his children.

3. Griffin’s Struggles and the Onset of Addiction

[09:29 - 18:47]

• Signs of Griffin's struggle with drugs at age 15 (10th grade).
  • Hosting parties, serving alcohol without parents’ knowledge.
• Neuropsychological testing revealed underdeveloped executive function (frontal cortex), impacting Griffin's ability to organize and adapt socially.

  "He didn't have the awareness to know he was sabotaging the very relationships he was seeking." — Erik Kramer [14:05]

• Griffin’s increasing substance use: pot, alcohol, cough syrup concoctions, eventually Xanax and heroin.

4. Treatment & Relapse

[17:53 - 20:47]

• Griffin attended Visions in Malibu (residential and outpatient adolescent rehab).
• Most confident and happy period of Griffin’s life was during the structured outpatient program.
• Erik’s regret: Griffin never should have returned to a traditional high school environment.

5. Griffin’s Death

[23:45 - 29:52]

• Recounts the night before Griffin’s death—Griffin spoke of future plans for the first time.
• Sheriff’s department calls early morning.

  "As I'm walking up the steps, officer walks out and meets me before I even get inside and says something to the effect of Griffin didn't make it through the night." — Erik Kramer [26:47]

• Griffin died of a heroin overdose at 18, injected by a friend (David Nernberg) who then left him and went to a party.

  "So he would have had to drag him out of his car into the house. Lay him down on his bedroom floor and then go out to a party." — Erik Kramer [34:05]

• The friend received probation after being convicted of involuntary manslaughter.

6. Processing Grief and Perspective on Blame

[35:01 - 41:19]

• Erik acknowledges Griffin’s own struggles led to his death, but also holds the environment and peers partly responsible.
• Later receives a call from the friend, seeking forgiveness and guidance.

  "Here I had written him off for the rest of my life, never even thinking about him. He kicks his way in the door, metaphorically." — Erik Kramer [38:44]

• Kramer’s philosophy: “You can’t always see what someone else’s obstacles are… we're at our best when we're not judging someone else.” [40:34]

7. Impact on Family and Surviving Son

[41:19 - 45:31]

• Focused on protecting younger son Dylan—emphasizing that he was fundamentally different than Griffin.
• Noted how the loss and family dynamics deeply affected Dylan, but describes a late, positive shift in Griffin’s self-awareness and relationship with Dylan before Griffin’s passing.

8. Loss of Both Parents

[45:31 - 52:33]

• Within ~18 months of Griffin’s death, Erik’s mother is diagnosed with stage 4 uterine cancer and dies after a year.
  • Moving, bittersweet hospital scene:

    "She pulls herself up and starts doing pull ups with the triangle bar. She goes, ‘I feel fine, get the fuck outta here, Maria!’" — Erik Kramer [49:48]

• Father diagnosed soon after with esophageal cancer, dies after a slow decline.

9. Deep Depression and Suicide Attempt

[52:33 - 69:54]

• Erik plans his suicide down to the smallest detail, wanting to make affairs easy for family.
• Purchases a handgun after complying with California's waiting period.

  "This was planned down to the nth degree. There was no accident here." — Erik Kramer [53:00]

• Stays at a motel, writes letters, and shoots himself under the chin with the intent to die.
  • Miraculously survives: picks up the phone after the shot, walks himself to the ambulance.

  "I shot myself under my chin... Apparently I got up. I went to the door. And I walked down into the ambulance." — Erik Kramer [67:33]

10. Survival, Recovery, and Amnesia

[69:54 - 76:10]

• Placed in a medically-induced coma for 6 weeks, followed by extensive facial and neurological reconstruction.
• Lost sense of taste and smell, lost forehead (temporarily); wears a plastic NASA-designed cranial implant.

  "There was a period of time where I didn't have a forehead." — Erik Kramer [72:56]

• Describes years-long amnesia and cognitive deficiencies — had difficulty with even short-term memory for 2-3 years.

11. Exploited While Incapacitated

[76:36 - 109:47]

• While cognitively impaired, Kramer is manipulated into marriage by an acquaintance, Courtney Baird, who later steals $300,000+ from him via fraud and forged checks.
• Outlines the infantile protections and self-serving motives of the conservatorship legal system:

  "It's actually set up to reward lawyers and all those people that are professional conservators, lawyers—to keep me in the system as long as possible." — Erik Kramer [77:20]

• Chronicles his legal ordeal, wrongful felony charges, and eventual annulment of the fraudulent marriage; the system cost him more than the original theft in legal fees.
• Notably, all restitution for the woman’s crime was paid by her brother—she served less than 3 months in jail.

12. Meaning, Advocacy, and Healing

[107:28 - 111:19]

• Erik now focuses on advocacy, shining a light on conservatorship abuse.
• Co-launched a podcast “Quarterback & the Con Artist,” in talks for a docu-series.
• Developing youth football programs designed to support not just athletic, but personal growth.

  "You're going to become good football players, that's a given. But you're going to become even better people." — Erik Kramer [111:19]

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Memorable Quotes

• On losing Griffin:

  "Finding out and Griffin passing away, but the second worst part of that day was telling Dylan. And he fractured into. It was like taking a vase and just slamming it on a concrete floor. He broke into a million pieces." — Erik Kramer [31:29]

• On depression and suicide:

  "My ability to discern like I do now was not there... You can't accurately assess the damage your decision is going to cause. You just can't." — Erik Kramer [53:00]

• On survival:

  "I shot myself under my chin... walked to the ambulance. Weeks later, I woke up not remembering anything." — Erik Kramer [67:33]

• On vulnerability and compassion:

  “I think we're at our best when we're not judging someone else. That kind of stands in the way of everybody's best side.” — Erik Kramer [40:34]

• On life advice to his younger self:

  "We were all faking it... trying to fit in somehow, some way with somebody, some crowd. And what I would tell that 16 year old Erik Kramer is there's only one Erik Kramer. Be that one." — Erik Kramer [110:26]

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Notable Segments with Timestamps

• Erik introduces his book and its themes: [03:11]
• Griffin’s struggles, neuropsychology evaluation: [13:25]
• The last conversation with Griffin: [24:44]
• How Erik learned of his son’s death: [26:24]
• Details of the overdose night and aftermath: [33:12]
• Erik’s philosophy on blame and forgiveness: [39:34]
• Loss of both parents in quick succession: [45:31]
• Explaining his suicide attempt and recovery: [53:00, 65:09]
• Memory loss and being exploited via bad conservators and marriage: [76:36–106:15]
• Finding meaning & helping others—youth football program: [110:59]

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Conclusion

This episode is a profound journey through the depths of loss, trauma, and recovery. Erik Kramer lays bare his battles with addiction in the family, harrowing grief, catastrophic mental health struggles, institutional betrayal, and eventual renewal. With candor and strength, he imparts a message of compassion, self-acceptance, and the importance of supporting one another—on the field and in life.

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Further Information

• Book: The Ultimate Comeback, by Erik Kramer and Bill Croyle
• Podcast: Quarterback & the Con Artist (with Johnathan Walton)
• Follow Erik’s projects: [no explicit URLs given in transcript, but search podcast/book titles]

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Host: Ryan Sickler (@RyanSickler)
Guest: Erik Kramer
Podcast: “The HoneyDew”
Episode: #376
Duration: Approx. 1 hr 52 min

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If you or someone you know needs support, reach out. The hardest conversations save lives.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Experian, Connecticut. Come see me at Comics Roadhouse. March 13th and 14th. Dallas, Texas. I'm headed your way. March 27th and 28th. Spokane, Washington. I'll see you guys April 3rd and 4th. Buffalo, New York. I'm headed your way. I'll see you guys Friday, April 24th and Saturday, April 25th. Get your tickets now at Ryan Sickler dot com. The Honeydew with Ryan Sickler. Welcome back to the Honeydew, y'.

[A]

All.

[B]

We're over here doing it in the Night Pants Studios. I'm Ryan Sickler. Ryan Sickler.com and Ryan Sickler on all your social media, thank you guys for supporting this show. Thank you for supporting anything I do.

[A]

And.

[B]

And if you gotta have more, I've been telling you for years, then you gotta have the Patreon the Honeydew with y'.

[A]

All.

[B]

It's five bucks a month. It's this show with y'. All. And you guys have the most insane stories you'll hear anywhere. We've been doing it for years. If you're still on the fence, just go watch the free best of episodes we put out right here on the YouTube channel. And trust me, when you see that, you're gonna be like, it's worth a cup of coffee. All right? If you or someone you know has a story that has to be heard, please submit it to honeydewpodcastmail. If you sent it before, send it again. We get a Lot of them. Bump it to the top. We would love to do your story. All right, that is it. That's the biz. You know what we do here? We highlight the lowlights. And I always say that these are the stories behind the storytellers. And I am very excited to have this guest with us. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Eric Kramer. Welcome to the Honeydew.

[A]

Eric Kramer. Great to be here.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

That's great build up. Thank you.

[B]

It's great to have you here. And I want to publicly apologize for the parking debacle outside. I had just space locked, and then the trash truck came in. I was. You were like, in this park, as you are.

[A]

You had to know that was going to be an issue.

[B]

It's wonderful to have you here. Before we get into anything that we'd like to talk about, plug all of it right there. Anything you want them to know, please.

[A]

All right. Well, I couple years ago co authored a book. Here it is. It's called the Ultimate Comeback. I was approached by Bill Croyle, who's basically wrote it, and it's my story. And it's a wild tale. I can tell you that. So it goes. There's a little bit of football in there because that's part of who I am and what I did. But it's a tale of about. It's probably four or five different tales that go on at the same time. So it deals with my upbringing a little bit, and then my son. My older son Griffin's kind of a little bit of his tale through some of his drug dependency as a young person. Eventually, he passed away from an overdose, as did my mom. Passed away about eight months after he did from cancer. And then my dad was diagnosed around the same time. She passed away with esophageal cancer, which he then passed away from about three years later.

[B]

Both from the same cancer, different cancers. Were they both smokers?

[A]

Early in life. But it didn't have to do with. No.

[B]

Can I just see that for a moment? Because it says here the ultimate comeback. It says surviving a suicide attempt, conquering depression, and living with a purpose.

[A]

And I was about to get to my own.

[B]

I was gonna say you.

[A]

Yeah. So, I mean, you know, this was what, 10 years ago? So this for me was in. In 2015. And I had hit a very low point in life because at that time, I think I was 51ish. And it.

[B]

You know, that's when it all hit 51.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And so 52.

[B]

Right now, I'm just sitting here putting Myself in your shoes, with.

[A]

Right. So it was kind of. It was a culmination of a lot of things. It was a divorce that happened, kind of separation back together. Separation back together, eventually, ultimately divorce, and then all the things I just listed. And it really felt like all the important people in my way were no longer here, and there was nobody coming to replace them. And so anyway, that culminated in a suicide attempt, which eventually, I'm still here. So, thankfully, it didn't work.

[B]

And, I mean, I have a million questions for you. Let's go back to the beginning of all this. First of all, where are you from originally? You're here.

[A]

I'm from right here. Yeah. Yeah. So I. I grew up in the Valley, San Bernardo Valley, up in Canoga Park.

[B]

And I was saying to you outside, I'm pretty sure. And you said, yeah, it was you. It was. You played football with Corolla.

[A]

That's right. Yeah. We were teammates for a couple years, I think around age 8, 9, 10, something like that. Great. All right.

[B]

So you're growing up here, and then you get married and have your. How many kids? Two.

[A]

Two boys. Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Griffin and Dylan.

[B]

And so the first marriage is what you were saying? That was the one that was sort of back and get together. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. And. And so it was really, I think, tumultuous for the kids.

[B]

And do you mean the relationship between you and your wife?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Or. Excuse me or. Cause I also want to ask you, too, because you played Detroit, right? You played Chicago.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

So are they rooted in one place or are they also bouncing with you?

[A]

No, we were bouncing around. So the longest I was ever in one spot was in Chicago, but that was after I first started. I crossed the picket line and played during the strike in 87. You did with the Falcons. Yeah.

[B]

Are you in that? I watched that damn documentary. Are you in that one? No. 30 for 31.

[A]

That was a third. That was on the Washington Redskins.

[B]

Oh, just the team. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

[A]

The team that won actually the super bowl that year. And so what was that like?

[B]

Were you hated?

[A]

Not really. They actually kept me after that.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. But was it weird in the locker room or were they like just whatever. We get it.

[A]

I think at first because Mike Ken played left tackle and he was the head of the union on the player side. I'm not sure he and I ever had a conversation. But interestingly, the only guy that crossed the picket line of the regulars was Tim Green, who eventually, obviously had a good NFL career. But then went on to become a broadcaster and a best selling author. And so Tim and I became friends and then. But from there the next year came back. I thought I had what was a pretty good training camp, but then was the last cut. The Rams had let go of both their backup quarterbacks and so Falcons picked him up and I waited around. No one calls up in Canada. Played in CFL for. Who'd you play for a year and a half? Calgary.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean I've got a. I've got love for the CFL because again Baltimore, we had the Stallions and they won the CFL championship and to this day they're the only American team to ever win the Gray cup. So I, you know, I tout that a little bit.

[A]

I had no idea.

[B]

Yeah, they tried to. They. We wanted a team so bad and this is not going to be a sports podcast.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But they were like, yeah, we'll give Jacksonville one, we'll give Carolina one. We're like, what are you talking about? Right. But Seattle, St. Louis and LA, they're going to flip flop a few times. LA and Oakland, I mean we're like what? And they were like, here's a, here's a USFL team championship.

[A]

Now, did you keep your band.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For the cfl? Yeah, whatever.

[B]

They were Baltimore style. They went with Colts in the NFL block. They still try to use Colts because it was a different league. They were like. No, they kept the band and that band is now the Ravens marching band. It just turned into that.

[A]

Yeah. That's great.

[B]

Anyway, okay, so back to your life. You're playing football, you have a tumultuous time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At home it's rough for the kids.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When do you notice your son starts having some issues with drugs?

[A]

This was like his. I want to say it was like in his. I want. What age you when you're 10th grade?

[B]

About 15. 15 license. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so right around then. So right around the start of his 10th grade year maybe in that summertime.

[B]

And what are you seeing that makes you say or do you find some. What happens?

[A]

He just looks out of control. And I remember there was a birthday in the backyard for him and that came to find out he was serving alcohol out of the garage.

[B]

And you didn't know it?

[A]

Didn't know it.

[B]

How would you find out?

[A]

I can't remember.

[B]

Sooner or later somebody over does it.

[A]

I can't remember. But what I did was there was back in middle school there was the school or schools had reached out and had some kind of relationship with the Losville Sheriff's department. So I reached out to Dave Bates who at that time was an officer with them, and I had him come over to the house and, and we sat there and he, you know, talked with Griffin about, you know, building a

[B]

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[A]

you make in life. And there's. So anyway, the, the point was that that's, that's kind of the first time. And then, but prior to that, even when Griffin, I think he was like 13. So this didn't have anything to do with drugs at that time. But my wife and I, my then wife and I were going to a therapist where Griffin was often the subject matter. And so the also in that group was a psychotherapist. And he, he said, hey, would you be okay getting Griffin neuropsych tested? So I didn't know what a neuropsychologist was.

[B]

I'm gonna say right now, what is that test?

[A]

What are they looking? So neuropsychologists are not by nature therapists that you go and talk to. They, they give you tests and evaluate and your mental capacity. And so at that age it was about a 3 day ish process.

[B]

Is a sleepover thing?

[A]

No, no, no, you go and come, go.

[B]

What sort of test are we doing? Like written, verbal or identifying? Like what is it? The Rorschach tests and all those sorts of things. Is it a mixture of those or

[A]

I can know, I don't recall. She didn't walk me through three days.

[B]

A long time. It is, I imagine on day three, three to also you're mentally fatigued and it's.

[A]

And I think that's why probably the goal of it. So it's not eight hours a day, right. It's maybe two. And so but what did come back was Jeannie Bisman's surname. She said, here's the scenario is that Griffin's frontal cortex, which is responsible for your organization, it's not wired properly. So. Oh, okay. Now it makes sense that in school, you know, like in second grade, I remember reading with him or getting him to read was very difficult and I, you know, coaching him through youth football was not difficult. The difficulty came and he didn't have the patience to learn. And but I would say heartbreakingly, even more than that was he would, he was a very social kid and so he didn't have the awareness to know that he was sabotaging the very relationships he was seeking. And think about it at that age at 13, as if life isn't hard enough already. So anyway, and so I think for him what happened was, you know, this is a life. We all need to be connected, you know, in some way or another. And so if you start out here and that's not working well, then you're going to go here. And if that doesn't work well, then you're going to go here. And so eventually Griffin found himself, you know, for him, people that were comfortable, only they weren't helping him making very good decisions because they themselves were in the same boat. And as you know, we talked about, it's when you're that age, it's typically if we've all dabbled in something, at least dabbled in it. However, if you're 13, 14, 15, 16, and you kind of are going down a string of these are, this is who I'm hanging out with and this is what I'm doing. I'm not telling you about it, but this is what I'm doing, then typically there's something that is not allowing you to function as others would, as most others would.

[B]

So you're saying that sort of self Check doesn't exist. There. There doesn't hit a point where they're like, hey, this is hurting us. This is. Look at your body. Whatever. We don't have a job, etc. No health.

[A]

It's just what my next where can I drink? Is about my next whatever is.

[B]

And, and if you don't mind me asking, what was your son. What was like, was he a drinker? Was he.

[A]

So I think it started out as pot, maybe some alcohol. Alcohol. Then it went to things I've never heard of until that time, which was like cough syrup mixed with something. Juice or coke or whatever.

[B]

The scissor and all that stuff.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I learned about it from rap videos. You sound like me.

[A]

And then it was weed and alcohol

[B]

are like as far as I ever have gone. Shrooms, a little bit. That's it. No acid, no cocaine. I'm scared. I'm scared of it.

[A]

Then it was Zanibars, which I don't even know what they are.

[B]

Xanax. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Well, I know that from comedians who take them to fly.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

They're terrified of fly.

[A]

But then eventually it became into a world which I've, you know, never like, I forget what it was.

[B]

They sound like pharmacists.

[A]

There was something else. Something else. And then eventually heroin and. And then that's what ultimately got him is, is he was sober. So the Visions was the place we'd found. It was in Malibu. Don't think of Malibu as a, you know, billion dollar mansion on a cliff. This was in the city limits of Malibu, but it was at a house with other kids his age. And, and, and then from there, I want to say that was three months. Ish. And then from there he stayed in Visions, but in an outpatient program. So he basically slept at home and was at Visions all day into the evening. And so that's the best I ever saw him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Ever in his whole life. It's the most confidence I ever had saw him had in his life. There was. So they, they had reintroduced school, but not the traditional school. So this was a very one on one, two on one ratio. And one of his teachers aides I'm still in touch with, she's married now and has her own family and lives out in Anderson, Nevada. And. And it's just. And she's a teacher. So I just think that it's the first time in his life that I ever had saw him have confidence in learning anything. And I remember. So this was, I want to say, outpatient program was probably a year and A half Ish. And. And I remember sometime during that time, and I think Wednesday nights were the time where the parents could come and, you know, kind of they had like a group. Here's what's been going on this week. And it was more like a conversation where the parents have sat and watched. And I remember being blown away by how insightful all these kids were. And I remember there was a point in time when Griffin had said, you know, thank God I'm here, because otherwise I would have been dead or in jail or not doing what I'm doing now to the end of that period of time when he said, oh, no, that was just brainwashing. Well, no, it wasn't. And I wish that he had. I wish visions had another way or there was another. Like, Griffin, in my opinion, never should have gone back to high school. And.

[B]

And do you say that because of the environment and the kids there and stuff?

[A]

Yeah. Well, it's. They're not. As I. As I expressed a few minutes ago about the way his brain worked, there was never going to come a day where Griffin's going to thrive in a. In a class of 40 people. That's never going to happen. So he didn't belong in that environment because now he's back again, like, as the. He's feeling everything.

[B]

That's. Yes.

[A]

And it's not because he's dumb.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's just because he couldn't pay attention, like, physically couldn't do it.

[B]

And what that must do to you as a person mentally. Like, I'm a failure.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

I'm gonna go hang out with these

[A]

other fans, and you're gonna hide everything about it. And so they're like, you're suffering in silence his whole life.

[B]

So how long. I. I have two questions, too, because your era of football, Monster Energy, everybody knows White Monster, Zero Ultra, that's the OG it kicked off this whole Zero Sugar Energy drink for. But Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise, and Vice Guava, and they all bring the Monster Energy punch. So if you've been living in the white can branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe, and every single1. Is zero sugar tap the banner to learn more? Are you guys the painkillers and stuff? Are you starting to see the pills come in back then and stuff, all these oxies and crap that everyone's addicted to? Or was that sort of your. The end of, like, as you're leaving football, are you seeing that come in more and more versus whatever you Know.

[A]

Yeah, whatever.

[B]

They used to use the shots and the.

[A]

Roy. Right. No. So the. The most I ever took was Vicodin, but I. I didn't take it like it was candy. And it was. You know, as I recall, it would have been, you know, something like that. I would have only taken if. If pain or, you know, like after surgery or something.

[B]

Yes. Broken arm, leg. Yeah.

[A]

Excruciating. Yeah. Which. Which was part of the thing. Which was part of the rehab. Right. So eventually, you have to get from the hospital bed home, and then eventually you got to start your physical therapy. Well, in. There are two or three days where, you know, there's going to be reason to take Vicodin, But I was never addicted to anything like that. And then that was it. And I was never a drinker.

[B]

No, you never were a drinker. So I have to ask you, like, how. When. Where are you when you find out about your son?

[A]

I was home. So Friday night, Griffin's team had played Saint Bonaventure at Ventura College. And I remember meeting, you know, or picking him up back at Thousand Oaks High School after the game. And then. So we're. My wife and I were separated, and so I was. But we didn't live far from each other, and we had lived in Agoura Hills at the time. And so as we're driving back, he asked me, he says, so the name of the coach I played for at Pierce College was Jim Fenwick. At this time, he was coaching at Valley College. And he said, do you think Coach Fenwick would be okay if I tried out for football? Now, keep this in mind. Griffin had never mentioned in his life to me something about the future. Never. Whoa.

[B]

That's interesting. I thought you were going to say football. You said the whole future.

[A]

Well, this concerned football, but it's concerned football next year, right? Never, Never. And so we must have. As we drove home and then we pull up, we must have sat out in front of Marshawn's house for 45 minutes at least. This whole conversation was sort of initiated and driven by Griffin. That alone was like, wow, this has never happened before. So the next day, which is Saturday, there's a youth football game going on at Agora High School. And so I go over, because I knew a couple of kids playing in it. And so I was sitting with one of the moms and her husband and just watching the game, and I see Griffin and Dylan. So Dylan had just gotten through playing his season and used football. And I see him and Griffin just kind of hanging out, playing catch. Didn't think anything of it. Went home, get a call in the morning from Lost Hill Sheriff's Department. And I didn't even think to ask how'd you get my number? But they said, would you mind coming down to the Lost Hill Sheriff's Station? And I said, well, no, but why? They said, oh, well, we'll tell you when you get here.

[B]

And what time of morning is this?

[A]

910 ish.

[B]

And they fucking won't tell you see.

[A]

But I knew it couldn't be good. It's definitely, I didn't know what was going on.

[B]

Good. If the sheriff is inviting you to the station.

[A]

Correct, man.

[B]

But then what's going on in your mind? Could be. And it could be anything.

[A]

All I know is I'd never been called by sheriff's for. And so anyway, it wasn't far from my house, so I pull up right in front. As I'm walking up the steps, officer walks out and meets me before I even get inside and says something to the effect of griffin didn't make it through the night. So we end up.

[B]

How old was he?

[A]

He was 18.

[B]

And what does that mean, didn't make it through the night?

[A]

Why he passed away.

[B]

I mean, was he, did they find him and was he in a hospital? Were they trying to save him or.

[A]

Well, no, I, I can tell you the story. What happened?

[B]

You comfortable doing that?

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, so we, I, I get into his car and we're driving over to the house that he was at. And so I, I called. So Dylan that night was sleeping over a friend's house. And so I called the dad and I said, and I gave him a quick little as best I could scenario, what's going on? And I said, would you mind hanging on to Dylan a little longer? And then I'll tell, I'll call you and I'll tell you when I'm home. And so, Oof.

[B]

All of it, Eric. I'm putting myself in that dad's shoes too, like this poor kids to find out. And I know ad of it, I got a smile and oh man.

[A]

Yeah. So we, we walk in and at first I sit down at the kitchen table and the woman walks in and I know her from Al Anon. So, and we're just talking at the table and then about, I can't remember what. And so then my friend from high school who works at the Los Hill Sheriff's Department, he comes in and so obviously he got a phone call and knew what happened. And so Chris and I and this woman are Sitting at the table. And then her son comes in, and he's right away talking about whatever happened that night, not implicating himself in any way. So I didn't think anything about it. Just sat there and listened to whatever he. I didn't exchange with him anything. And then eventually it was time to go back and see Griffin's body, basically. And it's the only dead body I've ever seen in my life.

[B]

Are you kidding me? Even growing up as a kid, you never saw a grandparent or anybody like that. Oh, my God, no. That's terrific.

[A]

And he was. He was laying face up. And so, you know, I just. There's not a lot I remember other than just sobbing. And it's just a reality that eventually hits you, like he's not coming back. Okay. What you do. And he's a baby. Yeah. Yeah. And. And then my. My good friend Robert Espinosa, who is the kid's godfather, comes in. And I don't really remember. I just remember seeing him. And then eventually we got home. I left and went back home. And then Griffin came. I mean, Dylan. And I remember the exact chair we were supposed sitting in. And that was not only the worst day of my life of finding out and Griffin passing away, but the second worst part of that day was telling Dylan. And he fractured into. It was like taking a vase and just slamming on a concrete floor. He broke into a million pieces. I'm sure he was 13 years old.

[B]

So can I ask your ex, do they call her as well, the police separately, or do you have to tell her?

[A]

No, I think they called her. I don't remember her coming in the room, though. But anyway, so back to that kid.

[B]

Okay, it's back to kid that didn't implicate himself.

[A]

David Nuremberg. Yep. So

[B]

wait, can we pause this for a second? No, no, wait. The last name.

[A]

Nurn. N E R N Berg. Yes.

[B]

That's the last name of the people that own this building.

[A]

Well, it's not him. He's not one of them. Are they related?

[B]

Anyway, sorry. You could say I'm sorry.

[A]

But my point is, he spent a lot of time telling me what he didn't do. It was all a lie, so I didn't pay. There was an investigation, which also, you're

[B]

going through God knows what emotions you're going through as kids over here saying it. But. Yeah, that's the most important thing is what I didn't do.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I'm just saying, like, for me, I didn't care about the investigation. That wasn't going to bring him back. I didn't care. There was a. There was a court, whatever. I didn't care about that. I do remember getting a phone call from the detective, and he said, here's what happened. He goes, that kid, He said, they. They drove into a cul de sac in Agora Hills. And that kid, apparently Griffin, was afraid of needles. And so that kid injected Dylan in his toes.

[B]

His toes?

[A]

Yes. And then. Is that.

[B]

So it's not visible?

[A]

I don't know, and I don't care. But the. But the point was Griffin had an immediate reaction. Like a seizure? Like reaction. Eyes rolled back, foaming at the mouth. And so this kid David starts driving him and calls a bunch of his friends. What do I do? What do you do? Take him to the hospital.

[B]

He didn't call 911 on the way

[A]

or take him to the hospital.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So drive up. And he didn't. Here's what he did do. He drove him back to his house. Now, by then, Griffin was already gone.

[B]

He was.

[A]

So if he wasn't, he was on the verge. So he would have had to drag him out of his car into the house. Yeah.

[B]

He's not walking in.

[A]

Lay him down on his bedroom floor and then go out to a party.

[B]

I forgot about that part. He went to a party and left him there.

[A]

Left him for dead.

[B]

Is he arrested?

[A]

So he. He ended up getting probation.

[B]

Hold on a second. Dude. That's. That's. I mean, if it's not murder, I feel like it's at least attempted murder. You did nothing to attempt to help this person that you knew was dying? Well, you put him in his. Where's the mall?

[A]

He's responsible for injecting him, which to me is a murder weapon.

[B]

You stab somebody. What's the difference? I stabbed you. You bled out through your toes. Who cares where you bled out or whatever. I stabbed you.

[A]

So, you know, Griffin's dead mostly because of Griffin's own inability to get through life. That's a fact.

[B]

I mean, but that's coming from his dad. And that is a tough pill to swallow, even for me as a son to hear. I'm like.

[A]

But the. But the company he kept had a big hand in the reason Griffin's no longer here. So fast forward. So I think he was convicted of involuntary manslaughter. So this past year, I think it was my girlfriend and I go to Detroit for a Lions game. And while there, I get a phone call, which there's no name attached to it. It's just a Number. So I said, hello. And the person on the other end of the line is crying. It's a male crime person crying. And I said, who is this? He says, I can't tell you who it is. I said, well, if you know who I am, I need to know who you are.

[B]

This is crazy. This has happened to you at the game while you're at the game. No, but while you're in Detroit.

[A]

In Detroit, so. And I knew right away who it was.

[B]

It was him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Was it?

[A]

Yeah. So he says, I can't tell you my name, but I can tell you my mom's name. It's Karen. I said, all right. I don't care about Karen. What's your name? And he said, david. I said, all right. David what? David Nurberg. I said, all right. So I spent the next hour talking to him as though I was his therapist, getting him to breathe, calm down, relax. And I said, so sorry.

[B]

How old is he now?

[A]

I couldn't tell you.

[B]

30s?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

40s.

[A]

Yeah. So he's talking to me about his own daughter and all this. And so a couple days go by, now I'm back home, and I. I text him and I said, please call me when you get a second. So eventually he does, and I'm walking into Costco. So I pulled off, and I'm sitting over, and I said I wanted to throw something by you. I said, how would you like to drive me around and explain to me what happened that night?

[B]

Wait, you mean like a reenactment of the night? He's going to take you here, and you're.

[A]

Wow. Yeah. I said, this is for you, not me. I don't really need to know anything. And it went from that to him wanting me to testify on his behalf that his daughter's mother is suing him for custody or something. Nowhere in there do you even say, I'm sorry. So here I had written him off for the rest of my life, never even thinking about him. He kicks his way in the door,

[B]

metaphorically for a while, for sure.

[A]

But he re enters my life now. He's got me thinking about him, where he was gone from my life. So. And he kept at it. And so my girlfriend did some research on him and found the detective that was actually investigating. So they knew all about Griffin, they knew all about his conviction. And Anna had sent him, the detective, the printed out text that where I say, don't ever contact me again. So this detective told honest, he said, if he ever does, let me know and we will arrest him.

[B]

It's been quiet since.

[A]

It's been quiet since. Yeah,

[B]

I want you to, because you said something to me too. Like for parents out there who, who myself included, naively think, oh, you, you're messing with just the wrong crowd. So you stumbled onto these drugs and now you're an addict or whatever you're saying. Not every single one of these kids is that there are some people who. Right.

[A]

And I told David Nuremberg on the phone that first time when he called, I said, I don't hold you anymore responsible to hold Griffin. I looked at the both of you as kids that weren't, you know, if I, I told him, I said, if the roles had been reversed, I'm not sure Griffin would have had the wherewithal to do the right thing.

[B]

Where, where's this coming from in you then? Versus the Karen that would come out or the Papa Bear or whatever, where is this, you know, enlightenment coming from, where you're not like this guy and all that. Where, where is that coming from?

[A]

Well, I think that's sort of just my nature anyway. But I think years, whether it be therapy or whether it be Al Anon itself, I just think there's an awareness over time that comes with knowing that we've all got our obstacles and you can't always see what they are. They're not always obvious, but they're there. And so I think we're at our best when we're not judging someone else. That kind of stands in the way of everybody's best side.

[B]

Well said. Let me ask you this now, as a father, you got a 13 year old son now.

[A]

Well, he's 27.

[B]

But I mean, at the time, my apologies. At the time, he's 13. Are you terrified, hyper vigilant? Like, how do you become as a dad when it comes to him now entering this world of possible drugs, alcohol, that.

[A]

Right. Well, that goes back to. They were completely different. So as, as people and as young people, they were completely different. Dylan didn't have the hurdles that Griffin had. And so I think we were especially attuned to just surrounding him really with as much love and support as possible. And I remember he was in eighth grade and we'd been to meet with the principal and all the administrators, his teacher. And it was decided that the best thing to do that year was just let him go to school without the, without the expectation of doing any school work, mostly just for the socialization of it. If he wanted to do something great, if he didn't want to do something great. And I think that that first Year for him was exactly what he needed. I mean, you know, because not only did Dylan lose a brother, he lost his hero too. And so, as you might imagine, there, there's a five year age gap. And so given Griffin's internal frustrations with life himself, well, who do you think got the brunt of that? Dylan. And it was about the last six months of Griffin's life where that started to turn. And Dylan noticed that Griffin became more self aware of himself. And in a way that translated to Dylan as, hey, you don't have the hurdles I have, and you don't need to make the decisions I made. And in talking with Dylan, he was like, you know, what was so great about that is it wasn't even with just me. He did that with other people. And, and so again, you know, Dylan caught a glimpse of what was truly on Griffin's inside briefly. And then again, you know, and to hear him talk about that night. So I didn't know what was going on. And it was really. Dylan was with a group of friends and they were kind of playing catch, and the ball got away and rolled over to where Griffin was sitting. Dylan didn't even know he was there. And so they start playing catch, the crowd dissipates and they're just hanging out themselves playing. And Dylan was like, that was the greatest night of my life. And then that next morning, you know, that later that night he goes and sleeps over to his friend's house, thinking everything is what it is and only. Only to wake up and, and be delivered to, to the news he was going to receive. Yeah.

[B]

And you're saying I want to be correct here. Within a year and a half time now, you lose your son, your mom passes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And your dad gets diagnosed with cancer on a year and a half.

[A]

Yeah. So. So this was all in 2011 is when Griffin passed away. October 30th. Earlier that year, it was actually the day after Mother's Day. And on Mother's Day we were hanging out, playing golf, in fact. And so I'm walking out of the car, she says, you know, I'm going to get some tests back tomorrow. And I said, tests for what? And she said, so, you know, I just, I don't know, I haven't been really feeling all that great lately. Okay. Well, the next day she finds out she's got stage four uterine cancer.

[B]

So she's out there golfing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

At this moment. At what age?

[A]

Well, she was born in 1944. So this was 2011. So was that 67? 67. So anyway, you know, she was remarried and she went. She underwent eventually some radical surgery where they removed like parts of a few organs. And. And then she was, you know, like, I guess woke up from it. Okay. Eventually. And. But then she had this neuropathy and she also had to get chemotherapy. So I remember going to Tarzana Hospital with her and sleeping over. And, you know, she. She had the bed, I had the chair that turned into a rollout, basically a padded platform. And it was that year that, you know, we really became close and it was kind of everything about her that, that she cared about that was, I'll just use the word nitpicky, went away. And, and we, we grew very close during that time.

[B]

I mean, I'm just getting in my feelings here because right now what I'm hearing is you got a dad who's lost a son, that's a grandma who's lost a grandson also. Now moms, you're about to lose your mom, and mom's about to lose everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, man. And you know, after Mother's Day, that she's got stage four. So now, you know, it's not like, oh, well, we got 10, 20 years. You know damn well I just buried my son. And this is going to be coming quick. Yeah, and how quick?

[A]

Yeah, well, how, how fast? Honestly, I didn't think about it in terms of like time or how many days left or anything like that. I mean, she looked good right up until she didn't.

[B]

And how long did she make it after the diagnosis?

[A]

So what was that? May and July 12th. The next year is when she passed away. So roughly a year lower. And I remember she was at West Hills Hospital. Right. And the. So there's, I don't know, six or eight of us there. And the doctor asked us to come into another room and he says, okay, Eileen's a name. She goes, your mom's not going to make it. And it's now time to either have hospice here or go home and have hospice. And we all go back out and the doctor ends up telling. And you know those little triangle bars that hang down in front of you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the doctor explains to her what the scenario is, and she goes, huh? And she pulls herself up and starts doing pull ups with the triangle bar. Your mom, she goes, I feel cancer. She goes, I feel fine. Get the fuck out of here, Maria.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

Yeah. So she's proven everybody, she's like, what are you talking about? I'm fine.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

So anyway, yeah, she goes home and, you know, I don't know how long, three, four, five days with the hospice. And I mean, hospice nurses are unbelievable and just amazing. Amazing people.

[B]

Agreed.

[A]

And, you know,

[B]

but now your dad's also there saying his goodbyes.

[A]

Well, yeah. And so that last year before she passed away, I think it was a year before that, actually there was a Thanksgiving that my mom and her husband invited my dad. So it's probably, I don't know, 15, 16 of us, and I still have that picture.

[B]

That's nice.

[A]

And so, yeah, around the time she passed away, he had some acid reflux that was. Went undetected, that eventually turned into acid. I mean, esophageal cancer, Is that right?

[B]

Listen, that can happen to us.

[A]

I'm telling you.

[B]

Years of acid reflux eventually just eat your esophagus and turns into cancer.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, and then there's.

[A]

There's no getting out of that one.

[B]

No.

[A]

And so, you know, that was about a three year downward spiral that just kept getting worse and worse and worse. And so it was really, you know, if you've ever seen somebody over time, go. Go spiral downward, it's. That is not an easy thing. And, you know, because they start like. He started losing his ability to swallow and he just. His strength was evaporating. And eventually he ended up. He went from one assisted living facility to another, eventually getting closer to me. And it's just. That's why I think, you know, and I was growing up for various reasons, I was never close to either of my parents. And. Like I said, I think when we're at our most vulnerable, which is those times when you're really, really sick, I think you end up laying down all the things that used to get in your way with other people. I don't know how that works, but it works. And unfortunately, it works late in the game. Yep.

[B]

Very often too late.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So obviously you're going through mental hell and you decide to take your life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When does that happen? Had you ever even. Had you ever tried to commit suicide before?

[A]

Never.

[B]

None of your younger days where you have a son?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So how are you coming to that decision? I know. Not easily, but.

[A]

Right. And so know this. That. So Anna, who I. We knew each other when we were 15 or 16 years old, and we've been friends for life and now we're more than friends. There was a time, and during my recovery, she was the one that was there every second. And in subsequent years, she would call it my accident. I said, anna, this was planned down to the Nth degree. There was no accident here. Well, a couple more years go by, and then I realized that my ability to discern like I do now, was not there. So my ability to. My. My perspective on my own life wasn't there. So I told her. I said, you're right. It was an accident, because you don't. You can't accurately assess the damage your decision is going to cause. You just can't.

[B]

No.

[A]

And I happened to do this the day before Dylan's first day of class his junior year. I had no idea. Jeez.

[B]

And you said it was planned down to the T. You comfortable telling us what the plan was?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

What did you do?

[A]

I was. I did everything you could. Everything you would do if you knew you were going to die, which was.

[B]

Okay, wait. Stop right here for a second, because it's me. I'm with you here. Like, I've never tried anything like that. I don't. Like I'm even over here. What do I do? Am I shooting in my pills? Am I like what I'm.

[A]

Right now? I'm talking to the people who are kind of thinking in terms of their living trust, the living will and trust.

[B]

So what do you decide to do?

[A]

Okay, so how I'm gonna do this, I'll get to in a minute, but I basically wanted to know. I wanted everybody. I wanted to account for everybody financially. I wanted to. Make sure that Griffin, or, excuse me, Dylan, was looked after. And just things that you would never do that don't matter. Like to the people who I. Who I laid this all out for. Do you think they care a second about a penny? No.

[B]

No.

[A]

And so did you leave a video or. No.

[B]

Just a living.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

All right.

[A]

But I remember going to Peter Wakeman's office, who's my trust attorney, and I remember basically drawing all this up, knowing what I'm going to do, but knowing I can't tell him what I'm going to do.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And it's just a bizarre set of circumstances. And then what I. So now, at this time, Dylan was living with Marshawn full time. Because what had happened was a few months after Griffin got out of the outpatient program, so he was 18 again. Dylan was 13. At that time, they were going back and forth between Marshawn's house and my house, even though he didn't live that far apart. It was like they would spend part of the week at her house, part of the week at my house, and so forth. And so Griffin said, you know what? I don't Want to do that anymore. So when he didn't want to, Dylan either. And so. But I didn't want to. So I was. I was going to purchase a gun, which I ultimately did, and. And. And shoot myself, but I didn't want to do it at my house because I didn't want to take the chance of Dylan being the one to walk

[B]

in the door, see, you gonna blow your brains out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's how you're gonna do this?

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And you're gonna do it with a handgun?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And you went. That you didn't own already?

[A]

No, Never have owned again in my life.

[B]

So how long was the process to get a damn gun? Or we don't. Or we don't need to talk?

[A]

No, no, I'll tell you everything. So I.

[B]

Because, you know, you can go to Walmart parking lot, get one today.

[A]

You know what I mean? I didn't, but I could.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. So also, you went through the proper paperwork.

[A]

I did.

[B]

And. And that's giving you more time to consider this or reconsider this.

[A]

Yeah. So here's what happened. So I go find a place, a gun store in Simi Valley that I go. And I have no idea what I'm going to get. So I'm walking around inside this gun store knowing internally what my reason for being here is, and yet I'm thinking I got to look like that's not what I'm here for. And so I eventually get this SIG Sauer 9 millimeter gun, which to me is no different than any other gun. And so I purchase it. And now the rules are, laws are you can't take it with you. There's some period of time that has to go by.

[B]

It's. Our horse is staying at the stable for now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I. And this is in 2015. This is in the springtime sometime. I don't remember what month. And so then I make a phone call to Eric Hipple. Eric Hipple is a former quarterback with the Lions who played throughout the 1980s in Detroit. I came. My first year was 1990, but he still lives there. And so we got to know each other a little bit. And so Eric, he says, hey, if you're not feeling so great, get on an airplane. And he goes, I'm actually part of a program that is with the University of Michigan, and we've got a. What's technically described as a depression center. Get on a plane. Come. So I said, okay. So I fly out there, and Eric picks me up and it's basically. It's a. It's not on the University of Michigan campus. It's a. Basically a farmhouse out in the middle of nowhere. And so I'm about as depressed as you can be. And so. And I think going there, you know, after about a day, I call up it. So there was. The people that were there that included me were maybe seven or eight people. Most of them, I believe, were like military PTSD people and me. And so being there day after day for the first couple days, I called up Eric and I said, I don't. I don't think this is the right place for me. And so he comes and we're literally walking around this farm, and he's like, if you can just stick it out for the 30 days. I said, okay. So there wasn't one day there that was like, this is great.

[B]

Not one.

[A]

Not one. Because that's not how depression works. And there's no light switch to flip on.

[B]

You know what? It's a great fucking point. I did just recently see a post that said, they're lying to us. And this guy said, I've. I've slept in the best hotels, I've dined in the best restaurants. I've traveled the world. I'm fucking miserable. It's not about.

[A]

No, it's not about your surroundings. I remember Anna, okay, this is before I went there. She goes, you know, she has a timeshare in Hawaii. She goes, I'm taking my daughters and we're going to this timeshare. Why don't you get on a plane and go with us? I go, anna, you don't understand. I don't care where I go. I'm the one that's getting off the plane.

[B]

I'm still stuck with me right now.

[A]

Yeah. And so.

[B]

But you stuck the 30 out.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But what?

[B]

You still had to wait on that.

[A]

So. Okay, let me get to that. So. So while there. Okay, while there, I don't remember half of the stuff that took place. So apparently there was. There's something called a QEEG test. So it's where they strap some electrodes on your head and it's a brain mapping. I don't remember any of that.

[B]

You actually did it. You only remember.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

So that's definitely something I feel like we'd all remember, you know?

[A]

Oh, yeah. Since it's once in a lifetime that I've done, right. No, don't remember it. You would think. So I fly home. I don't remember flying home. I now remember I Don't. I don't remember. A friend of mine told me, yep, I picked you up and I actually stayed with you for a few days. And you actually told me the gun store that you purchased the gun at.

[B]

And you didn't remember doing any of that?

[A]

No. He goes, Chris goes, I took your ID out of your wallet. I drove over to that gun store. He goes, I told them, if this guy ever comes in here, this is what he's going to do with that gun.

[B]

So now what? What's plan B?

[A]

So I'm just saying I never knew any of that happened. So I come home.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

And eventually, while home, Chris goes to the gun store. I didn't even, I don't remember any of that. He told me that later years, you know, a couple years later. And so did you remember you were

[B]

waiting for a gun?

[A]

I knew it was there.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. I knew I'd purchased it, but I didn't really think about it when I went. I didn't think it would be there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I had no idea.

[B]

You went. And it was there and it was there.

[A]

And so here I am person this gun, trying to look like I'm not going to purchase it to kill myself. And. But there I walked out of the store with it.

[B]

They let you have it?

[A]

They did, yeah.

[B]

After he went in and said, this is the guy. Also I can show you NFL highlights.

[A]

What he could have got, right. What he should have done was like get a cardboard, you know, stand up and go here. This guy, he's got to be kind, leave it there.

[B]

And they let you go anyway.

[A]

They did.

[B]

Son of a. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So. And it wasn't like I missed. So, So, so basically the day comes and I've, I've got everything sort of in its place, as you know. As I've told you, this really is

[B]

the, like the most thought out, tidiest goodbye.

[A]

Right. And so I, you know, handwritten, several letters, obviously one to Dylan and, and then I went to basically a motel in Calabasas called the Good Night In. Ironically, I know where that is. And, and, and you got yourself a

[B]

room at the Good Night?

[A]

I did.

[B]

I saw you were going to take your life out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Good Night In. Why there? Why'd you pick there closest? Because it wasn't convenience.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was anywhere.

[A]

It was anywhere else but home.

[B]

And you didn't want to do it outside and, and, and, or in your car or you wanted to made to clean that up over that room is going to be out of commission.

[A]

Yes. And so here. Here's a.

[B]

What were. Do you remember the room number?

[A]

I don't, I don't. But here's what I. Here's. Here's another thing that happened that I don't remember. Is that. So I shot myself under my chin.

[B]

Oh, and are you sitting on the bed?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And just like this?

[A]

Yes. So I think I was leaning back against the headboard. Right.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And shot myself. And there I am. So prior to doing that, I had texted several people. What do you mean?

[B]

I thought you said tested.

[A]

I was like, no, no, texted, like with an X.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Several people. Basically saying goodbye. And so one of those people was Chris Gurman, the same one I had told you about earlier. And Chris was out of town getting his son into college in New Orleans. Didn't receive the text until sometime after. So he calls my cell phone and there's no answer. So he calls the hotel and asks for my room, which they ring the room, apparently I picked up.

[B]

No, get the fuck out of here. After you shot yourself in the face, you answered a phone.

[A]

All I'm saying is what I've been told.

[B]

They say you sat. Could you talk?

[A]

He could hear gurgling. So what he said was, eric, if whatever's in your hand, drop it. And he heard something hit the ground.

[B]

You still had the gun in your hand?

[A]

I guess so. Then he goes, eric, there's somebody at your door right now that's there to help you. So apparently I got up.

[B]

No, get the.

[A]

I went to the door. Oh, my God, dude. And I walked down into the ambulance.

[B]

What? Bleeding.

[A]

And I.

[B]

You had to be, right? Did you ever see the shirt after.

[A]

It had to be. I never see the shirt. I didn't see the. I don't know where the gun is. I don't.

[B]

Hold on. You shot yourself under the chin.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And somehow answered that phone and walked yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To the ambulance?

[A]

Yeah. Yep, that's what I'm told.

[B]

Okay. What is the actual first thing you remember as you come to from that? Are you in the hospital? Like, what. Do you remember hearing anything?

[A]

So apparently, no, I don't remember any of what happened that night. I, I. Apparently I was placed in a coma for a few weeks, like six weeks. And then I eventually went from. That was at Northridge Hospital. And then I went from Northridge to UCLA for their brain trauma unit for a couple weeks. And as I'm there, Some woman comes into my room and introduces herself as Rose. I can't remember her last name. And she says, I'm with. Well, I don't remember then, but it was center for Neuroskills cns. I said, oh, okay, great. I thought she just wandered in the room,

[B]

just floating around there and shit. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And so as it turned out, it was Anna and my Aunt Patrice had found this place and they. It was at that time. It's now in Tarzana, but at that time it was in Encino, not far from Balboa and Ventura Boulevard. And so. But they also had two houses that weren't attached. But you drove to them. Right. So they had people like me living there. And so. And they had picked out the house. I would. The house and the room. Like, there was one that was more near a freeway. They were both near the freeway, but one was more near the off ramp. And my aunt goes, no, I don't want him walking up that offering.

[B]

Oh, good point.

[A]

Yeah. So. So I was. You know where Candy Cane Lane is? Over. The one I stayed was on Martha Street.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Over there.

[B]

I know exactly. I drive it every year.

[A]

Yeah. So it's getting less and less as

[B]

the years go on these days, though. But it's a great problem.

[A]

Is. Right.

[B]

So let me ask.

[A]

That's where I went was.

[B]

What do you know, the list of your damages, like, what ended up happening. So I used to also said brain, so. But also.

[A]

So here's what happens, right? So the bullet went up through my tongue, through my navel cavity.

[B]

No.

[A]

Somehow didn't hit my optic nerve.

[B]

It really did go up. It's not like you flinched or it went in.

[A]

Oh, yeah, man. So a good friend of mine from high school, Don Teagles, he's my optometrist, he goes, how this thing missed your optic nerve, I don't know. So later I go. And I'm talking with the surgeon that saved my life. I coached his uncle, his nephew in football and Dr. Kerner. And so he goes. What happened was, he goes. By putting it under your chin, the. The. The gun actually kicked forward. He goes. Had it gone backward, you wouldn't be here.

[B]

So the recoil kicks it forward, which is what enabled it to go straight. Yeah, bro, is that the greatest pass you think you've ever made your goddamn. Are you talking about threatening the needle, bro?

[A]

That is.

[B]

That is not.

[A]

I've never heard that analogy. But if that was. It was. There was. There's never been an analogy word spoken that are more true than that. Threading the needle. That's what I'm talking about.

[B]

The. I mean, the odds, the sheer odds,

[A]

which right Would So like.

[B]

Okay. So what's recovery now? I'm keeping you longer.

[A]

That's okay.

[B]

What is the recovery for that? This. Wait, I got several.

[A]

It's several years.

[B]

The mouth, the teeth, the every. Can you smell okay now?

[A]

No.

[B]

But you can see fine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are you wearing contacts? I wear contact. You. So nothing with the vision? Smells gone.

[A]

Taste.

[B]

You blew your tongue up.

[A]

Right. So taste is somewhat.

[B]

Taste is tied to smell. Anyway, I lost mine during COVID so I get it. Yeah, but your teeth look great.

[A]

Well, they've had some work done, I can tell.

[B]

But still, they look great.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

But are you pulling them out at night?

[A]

No. No, no. Yeah, but. Right.

[B]

Should be.

[A]

No, but at least there's some there.

[B]

But tell us about your head.

[A]

Yeah. So that was a real thing. Is that there was a period of time where I didn't have a forehead. What do you mean? So if you. So I'm. Turn to the side. Okay. So if you were looking at me from this angle, my head would have gone like that.

[B]

Oh, like this?

[A]

It was a slant to it. Yeah. So what you see now, how long was that? I'm not sure. I. My guess is it would be several months.

[B]

Are you wearing hats? I'm sure you.

[A]

Yeah, I wear a helmet.

[B]

No, no, I had to worse.

[A]

Like what you would wear, like to go skateboarding.

[B]

The irony of a retired football guy whose career was a helmet happened to wear and any other helmet in his life is absurd.

[A]

Right. In case I fell. So.

[B]

So could you have gotten like an old lion's one with the face mask?

[A]

Probably could have.

[B]

They're probably more supportive than the skating ones these days.

[A]

Probably. Right. But it was funny how Anna tells the story. She goes, you know, you would look at yourself in the mirror and you'd go, huh, I wonder how that got there. And then there you. You walk away.

[B]

So what's actually in here?

[A]

So it's. I guess it's some sort of NASA design. Plastic.

[B]

It's plastic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not a metal or aluminum or titanium. It's plastic. Turn it on again.

[A]

To my knowledge.

[B]

Great, right?

[A]

Yeah, it's.

[B]

It's flawless.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, this did good work.

[B]

I think it's better than Botox, bro. You know what I mean? Everybody should just go get a plastic fork forehead.

[A]

Why not?

[B]

Okay, so how like, is it. If you ever headbutted something, could it dent?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay, but is it also. Can you. If you're in a fight, is it a weapon?

[A]

I never been in a fight with it.

[B]

Have you? Have you purposely have you around you. Come on. You haven't around a little bit.

[A]

Not even a little bit? No, not even. No, I've. I've been on. I've been back where your head's damaged. I've been in that life before. It took me a while to get out. Good point.

[B]

It took two months to get there. We don't need to be ramming it around. But.

[A]

But I mean, when you ask what's the recovery like? The recovery is substantial.

[B]

Well, so it's not just one thing. It's your face.

[A]

Yeah. And it's. It's so. It's been a decade now. Okay, so. But it's it mentally, you look amazing. Thank you.

[B]

But I figured. Please continue.

[A]

But I was gonna say like the mental cognitive, you know, your brain is capable of doing so many things, which mine wasn't. And like I. We could be sitting here like we are now, and I leave and five minutes after I left, I wouldn't remember being here.

[B]

None of it.

[A]

None of it.

[B]

That's very concussion.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

You know, like that's worse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Way worse. But that just. Yeah. I don't even remember. But then when someone would tell you something. No, we talked about would that start to trigger at least. Like I was always a hangover guy. Like that. Like I wouldn't remember. And then people go, no, we did this. And it's. Oh, yeah, yeah, I remember now if someone prompted. But even you, not even with planting.

[A]

No, I have no idea. So for the better part of. I'd say between two and three years, I don't really remember a whole lot. So it wasn't like, you know, oh, I hit the three year mark. Now I remember.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So there's a gradual.

[B]

But as your memory serves you now you can remember childhood, some NFL stuff. There's a gap.

[A]

Well, like I said, there's that, you know, between, let's say the end of 2015 until sometime in 2017, which is when I was married.

[B]

A lot of trauma.

[A]

Right. I mean, so I was. During the time of incapacitation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is when I basically got kidnapped and married.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, my God. Yes. Can we talk about this?

[A]

Sure, sure.

[B]

We're going. Go ahead, please.

[A]

So it was during that time that I was medically incapacitated. But yet the legal system, it's called conservancy. So the conservatorship court system is supposed to protect individuals like me who for whatever reason are in some way incapacitated. It's the only way you can become conserved. You can't Oh, I lost my arm and it got chopped off at the mill. Sorry, buddy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. But the conservative court system isn't set up to protect me. It's actually set up to reward lawyers and all those people that are professional conservators, lawyers, to keep me in the system as long as possible.

[B]

So what happened to you while you're incapacitated? What happens?

[A]

Well, in comes a person named Courtney Baird, who, after Griffin passed away, I. I was friends back then. Not anymore, but with her brother Dave. And so they're from the east coast. And so I had seen Courtney on occasion over, you know, here and there. And then. So once Griffin passed away, that was in late October of 2011. For about two or three weeks, my house was flooded with people, not necessarily sleeping over, but there was sort of a constant stream. And then. So, you know, Griffin was playing football. Right. And so a lot of the moms had gotten together. They'd make stuff, and they put it in these big. I forget what you call them, these silver trays. Right. And they'd be. So people would come in from out of town, and now everybody's gone. And a Saturday. And so I'm just home by myself, and there's a knock at the door, and it's Courtney. And she brings over some cookies or who knows what. And we eventually get to talking. And apparently Marshawn, who was my ex wife, one of the things that. That bothered me or that kept at me when Griffin passed away was was he fully aware of how much I loved him. And so in talking with Courtney, she says, you know, Marshawn had asked Courtney to come over on occasion and take Griffin to an AA meeting because Courtney had some of that in her background. And so she did. And Courtney had a daughter. And so Courtney would leave her daughter with Marshawn and off her and Griffin would go. And. And then she would say, oh, yeah, Griffin talked nonstop about how much he loved you and blah, blah, blah. Well, no, he didn't now, I can tell you. No, he did not. It just wasn't his personality. And I think that's the way she initially connected with me. And so we had, within, I don't know, a month, ish, we were starting to hang out, I guess, more and more, and which I wasn't aware at the time of how painful that in itself was for Dylan. So she basically squirmed her way into my life two different occasions. And so being in a relationship with her eventually was a nightmare. And so eventually I broke it off in January of 2015, and so later that year is when I did this. And Anna tells the story of. So I was. If you remember, I was staying at this Martha house that was tied to center for Neuroskills. Well, eventually, later that year, 2015, the residential part of my insurance ran out. And so Ana had arranged for me to live with my sister in Henderson, Nevada. And they found a ncep, which is Nevada Community Mission Program, which is kind of like a cns.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And so there was two weeks there, though, where Anna was staying at my house, taking me to cns, then driving on to her work in Santa Monica, coming back, picking me up, and taking me home. So after about eight or nine days of that. Oh, and Anna also, over the course of time, would take accounting classes. Right. And so there was one day where she did all that, then went to an accounting class, which she was taking, I believe, in Pasadena. Comes back. Right.

[B]

I know.

[A]

The. The.

[B]

Yeah, the traffic. Yeah. Distance.

[A]

So now it's probably, who knows? Eight, nine o', clock, she walks in the door, and guess who's sitting at the kitchen table with me? Courtney Baird. And I go, what was I saying? She goes, you weren't saying anything. It was Courtney. Just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah forever. And finally she's like, courtney, you got to go. She got to get to bed, and I got to get up in the morning. So Courtney leaves and then comes back the day we're leaving. And it was like, don't stay gone too long again. I don't remember any of this. So we go, and apparently I'm in. You know, I'm at this Nevada Community Enrichment, which is taking place at one of the campuses for Southern Nevada Community College. Right. So apparently I was getting texts and phone calls nonstop while I was at the place to which they would have to pull, like, go out, find me, bring me back, and say, hey, quit bringing your phone. And so eventually, Courtney flies out and drives me home. So it's a four and a half hour drive. Yeah. So I can tell you within about 10 minutes if she. If not sooner, she had known, like, I was gone. Mentally gone.

[B]

You don't even have a forehead, bro.

[A]

Well, I think by then I. I had the makings of what I'm saying.

[B]

Like, can somebody. It wasn't much.

[A]

It wasn't much prior to that that I didn't have one.

[B]

You're right. Like, you should not be.

[A]

So I was basically got dumped into the. Into the car with the piranhas. Yeah. Yeah. And so it wasn't long before that, as we started looking at bank records where probably took about three or four days to. She started off small, but then eventually was. It was very apparent what she was doing.

[B]

So comfortable saying how much she got.

[A]

Yeah. Over time, she probably stole 300,000. Get the.

[B]

And what, a couple years.

[A]

Let's see.

[B]

Yeah, about a couple $300,000.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, and did she get caught? Yeah, and she forced four checks and she. Oh, totaled another.

[B]

Sloppy and everything.

[A]

Yeah. But she also got protected. How the conservative. Well, first of all, the. The detective, Courtney drives to his office, which is at the Chatsworth courthouse, drives there thinking she's going to get arrested. So she basically admits everything. She had forged four checks and she stole about $50,000 at that point. And apparently the detective, David Lingshite, says, hey, we're still conducting this investigation. Don't go anywhere, move out of the house and let Eric's family get somebody to deal with him. As far as, you know, caregiving she was. She has no caregiving period. So instead. So then David Lynchite takes that to the. The assistant district attorney that was in charge of this case and she tells him, no, I want you to get more evidence.

[B]

So $250,000.

[A]

Excuse me, more than. More than an admission.

[B]

Four blank checks. So there's 50,000.

[A]

So there's only one. There's only one suspect in this case who then comes in, admits it's me, I've done everything. Arrest me and you don't. So then the. I won't even say her name, the assistant attorney, she basically punts the ball over to the conservatorship court system, which was a complete fiasco.

[B]

I don't even know. They have a whole. They have their all. Excuse me, whole own court system for that conservative.

[A]

Just for that stuff. Yeah. So I get appointed an attorney by the court who comes to meet with me. Now this is after Courtney and I are married. Right. We got married on December 22, I believe, 2016. And so the investigation, as far as anyone's current concern was over. And all Anna and my aunt were trying to do was get the marriage annulled. So to get that done, you need the conservatorship of the estate, which was granted. Then you need the conservatorship of the person. So Michael Harrison was my court appointed attorney who fought in court against me being conserved. The first person to testify that morning was David Lynxite, who under oath said, Courtney Baird admitted to me of stealing

[B]

$50,000 and writing for. Yes, forging four checks.

[A]

The next part of that, he walks out. Goodbye. I don't even know he's there. I don't even hear the words he says. Anna produced the court transcripts, so that's how I know he was there. And I spoke and he spoke. And so, Michael Harrison, you spoke in

[B]

court and don't remember.

[A]

Don't remember.

[B]

Does that blow you away also? Yeah, like that's court.

[A]

Right?

[B]

You know what I mean? Not just this little. You're going to court.

[A]

So. So picture the fact.

[B]

Brain is wild.

[A]

Picture the fact that you're. Let's just insert you in here. You're my attorney and you've got a. That was given to you. You've got the neuropsychology report from Dr. Tomaszewski that says I'm incapacitated. That says Courtney Baird is stealing from me a ridiculous amount of money. And I don't understand it. And you're representing to the court that out of your mouth comes these words, I'm as. What's the word he used? I'm as competent as anybody here in the courtroom.

[B]

Referring to you.

[A]

Me. He's representing me. He fought against me being conserved. And the judge says, well, who's going to. What legal remedy do you have for this? He goes, oh, well, the cpa. The judge says, well, what legal means does a CPA have of stopping anything? Well, I don't know. So we walk out of the court that day, and the court says, yes, your aunt can be your conservative.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Because my aunt was trying to keep my constant.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The very next step was the conservatorship of the person. That was like a week or two later. So we're all there. Court hasn't begun yet. Anna is sitting next to my aunt's attorney, Jonathan Cole. John Michael Harrison walks over and sits right next down and says, hey, rather than this conservatorship of the person, let's just do a post nuptial agreement. So he didn't even understand that we're trying to get this marriage annulled. So had that happened that day, Courtney would have been court ordered to leave the house. So right then and there, all monies, all stealing is gone. She's out of the house. And now nullity proceedings begin. How long it takes, I don't know,

[B]

but the theft is turned out like. Listen, everybody, basically, this motherfucker's not even here. Okay, he's here in person, but everything else is not even fucking here. He's not gonna remember this shit.

[A]

Got it? So.

[B]

God, this is crazy.

[A]

So now I'm married for about a little under a year. And a half. About a year and a half, I think. And so I'm trying to buy a house because the house I was in was renting. So I'm now trying to buy a house. And by this time, my aunt. It was. It was too emotionally hard for her to be my conservator because I couldn't see what was plainly in my face and what people were like her telling me, courtney Baird is stealing from you. She's admitted to it. She's admitted she drove over there and admitted.

[B]

Told on herself.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah. Not just the regular people. To the police.

[A]

And here's me. Huh? Geez. So she's like, I can't. So they found this professional conservator named Eileen Federizo. So her.

[B]

Your memory for all these people's names and everything also, after everything that happened to you is.

[A]

Well, I'm telling you, I'm good now.

[B]

It's a.

[A]

But we couldn't have had this conversation 10 years ago. I. I hear it, so. So only because this has all been told to me.

[B]

If we fucking promote this. And you're like, I don't even remember doing that show.

[A]

So, like, Anna and my aunt and Eileen Federiza one day meet, and they're gonna tell her everything that's going on as to why you're even here. So they tell her about Courtney Baird, and they tell her about this is a fraudulent marriage. And they tell her about all they show her. These are all the expenses that are fraudulent, one by one by one by one. And they're the same ones every month. So the way the process worked was Raymond James Trust Department held all of my major finances. And so they had closed off my account, my normal account, and created a new one at Raymond James Trust Department. And so the way it worked was the credit card bill or bills would come directly to the conservator. In this case, Eileen Federaizzo. Eileen Federaiza would go through those bills and go, fraud, fraud, fraud, fraud, fraud, fraud, fraud, fraud, fraud, fraud. Don't pay, don't pay, don't pay to pay. There's like three legit per month. Because, remember, I was at home, so all my bills were getting paid, like electric bills and blah, blah, blah. So guess how many of those $12,000 a month credit card bills. Guess how many of those. She actually said, don't pay that. 00 times.

[B]

Wait, what? So she let all of it go by, too.

[A]

So if I told you. If I told you every expense that says ATM C. Baird, $700. If I tell you. That is fraud. And then you become the conservator. And then you see on the next bill, C. Baird, $700. You don't flag that yet. You charged me $17,000. Your lawyer charged me 33,000. Fifty fucking thousand dollars. Went out the door to you and your lawyer, and what did you actually do?

[B]

Nothing.

[A]

Here's the one thing she did. When I went to buy that house, all the terms were finally agreed upon, and the house wasn't going through. I'm like, huh? Did I get a phone call from Eileen? No. I figured out that, oh, I'm conserved. And I'm conserved because Courtney Baird is stealing from me. That's all I knew. I didn't know how much. I didn't know that she had wiped out Griffin's $10,000 memorial fund. That all came in after he'd passed away. I didn't know any of that. All I knew, I put Corny Bear conservatorship. That's what's going on. So I go to. This is sometime in June, early June 2018. I go, I know, for about a week, but I'm not. I don't say anything. So eventually I go and I play in this Bears alumni golf outing thing. I come back and it's probably 11, 11:30 at night, and Courtney is on the couch. Now, normally she's up sleeping, and not my bed, but some other bed in the house. And I'll come walk into the door, and she's like. She springs off the couch. She goes, oh, how is golf? I said, all right. She goes, oh, well, how was Chicago? All right. And she goes, what's wrong? I go, nothing, other than I'm getting a divorce. She goes, oh, well, I'm not. And I said, fine with me, but I am. So I walk up and I go to bed, and I guess I fell asleep, and. And I guess I shut the door that she opens the door, she goes, I guess you don't want me sleeping in here. Now, mind you, she hadn't slept in there in however long she was in the house. So I go, no, I guess I don't. So now I get up in the morning, and I can guarantee you she didn't sleep a second. So she's on the couch, I come down, I make breakfast. I go sit outside, and she walks outside and she goes, I want to talk about this. I said, about what? She goes, about you're getting a divorce. She goes, I told you I'm not getting one. I said, fine, you don't have to. I Am. She goes, well, what are Macy and I going to do? That's her daughter. I go, well, you should have thought of that before you started stealing from me. She goes, I didn't steal from you. I go, okay. So I go, why don't you just. She stood up and I stood up, and I go, why don't you just go back in the house? And so she shrugs her hand off my. Like, does this to get my hand off her shoulder. She walks back in. And at that time, there was a dowel stick, right, that locked the door. Sliding glass door. So the front door is locked. That's the only other way in the house. So I'm thinking, huh, how am I getting it back in the house? Well, figure out later. So I'll go back. I'm reading the paper. Well, I, I. And I got my back to the door. So then I hear that thing pop out. So I go, okay. So eventually I go back inside and I. She's now upstairs. And. And this is all probably, I don't know, six or seven in the morning. And so I notice, I remember there's some pictures of her, like maybe four or five. So I take them down and I stack them. I put them by the front door and. And she goes, she comes downstairs and she says, what are these? I go, they're pictures of you. And she goes. She starts putting them back up. And I walk right behind her, and I take him down and I open the front door and I throw him out in the front door on the grass. So they're busting and whatever. And she walks upstairs and she goes, she shouts, down. I'm calling 91 1. Super. So I'm literally eight cop cars pull up. Eight, seven. You know, more than one, more than one, less than 10, but more than one. And so I'm standing there inside, like I've opened the front door. Now I'm just waiting for them walking up. And remember, one of them says, there's a couple guys that walk up. And one says, looks like we've had a tough morning here. And I said, yeah. And the guy goes, did you put your hands on your wife? Now I'm thinking back to when out in the back, I touched her back of her shoulder. I go, yeah. He goes, okay, step outside. Put your hands behind your back. So now I'm arrested, and I'm walking toward the car, which I'm now being put in, and he's going, oh, you can have OJ to thank for this.

[B]

Nah. He said that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm sitting in there. And now it's. It's, you know, one cop car kind of kneeling down, door open. I'm sitting there, there's another guy over his shoulder. And they're wanting me to talk about what happened. And I go, I'm not talking. And nothing did happen. So I eventually spend that night in jail. I didn't have my wallet with me. So later I finally get Eileen Federizo. So it was a felon. I was charged with felony domestic violence, which carried with it a $50,000 bond.

[B]

Here's another 50.

[A]

So I had to. It was. This was on a Sunday, so I had to get a hold of her on a Monday, which then wired $50,000. And as long as I showed up a court, I got it back, which I did. So there was never any domestic violence of any kind ever. Never in my life. And yet I get arrested for it. And so this brings in another lawyer now. Now I've got to get a criminal frickin defense attorney named Michael Norris. So somebody referred me to him. He's down in Redondo Beach. So I drive down there, and I'm basically telling him my story. And he goes, well, how much do you want to pay? And I go, I don't know, enough to make it worth it to you. And he goes, okay, I'll do this for you for ten grand, like, all right. So on my way home now, I'm going, you know what? You told me you didn't care how much? So I called him back, I said, how about five? He goes, no, no, no. We spent an hour on the phone. I go, you told me it didn't matter how much. Well, I'm telling you how much it is. It's five grand. So eventually we settled on that during the course of this. So Anna had come to the Van Nuys courthouse, which is where this was happening. She never showed up, not for one hearing. And I go to him, I go, never, ever is there going to be a situation where I plead or I accept counseling or domestic violence counseling or any type of counseling at all. So Anna and I both made that very clear on several occasions. The last time we go there now Courtney doesn't show up again. And Michael Harrison and the district and the district attorney in charge of my case get called in, or actually Michael Harris. What's his name anyway? Michael Norris. Michael Norris requests meeting with the judge in the judge's chambers, along with the prosecutor. So he comes back out, he doesn't tell me what they talked about. So now the judge is basically saying, eric, you agree to plead guilty and because it's a one time offense, I'm going to let you off with counseling for however many months and blah, blah, blah. That's all I heard. And he's, how do you plead? I said, or do you agree to this? And I said reluctantly, yes, you did. I did. So we get out of the courtroom and Anna goes to Michael Norris, what the fuck did you just do? We both have spent the last month or more telling you Eric didn't do this and no counseling was going to be at all part of this. She goes, did you not notice that Courtney was not in the courtroom? She's not there because there's no financial gain for her anymore. So about three days later, Anna finds a new prose, a new defense attorney. So I then fire Michael Norris. I retract my statement that I'm ever going to take.

[B]

You can do that?

[A]

Yes, you can.

[B]

I didn't know you can do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, you're not. I mean, if you have money, you're not. I'm guessing this all cost money.

[A]

I had, I had Anna and I had my incapacitation starting to float away.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So now I had the ability to tell Michael Norris, go yourself, give me back all my records, and I'm moving on from you. And if I could, I would sue you for legal malpractice. So in any event, that's. That was part of the story, is that Courtney Baird unilaterally re entered the picture because she saw prey, easy prey, and there was nobody in the legal capacity to protect me.

[B]

No, they're just more prey.

[A]

They're more.

[B]

This is more money for us in the system.

[A]

So if I tell you Courtney stole $300,000, but all the attorneys, along with Eileen Fedorizo and her attorney, they all. It was well over $400,000. Who's the bigger.

[B]

Yeah, thief. Exactly. The system.

[A]

The system. The people within it that have figured out, oh, we're protected by the very system we created.

[B]

That's right. And you can play both sides.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So what happened to her? Anything legally?

[A]

Yeah. So the marriage got annulled.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

She still owes me about 500,000 she time she did like she got sentenced to 180 days and she served, I think 70. Her brother paid every nickel of her restitution, which was $170,000. So she didn't pay a nickel and so she's out freeing about God.

[B]

This is an insane. Not only insane story, is this like an insane 10 years?

[A]

Years? It is.

[B]

It's insane.

[A]

It is. And so, you know, in addition to this book, Ultimate Comeback with John Johnathan Walton, we did a podcast called the Quarterback and the Con Artist.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it's already run. It went 10 weeks, once a week. It ran toward the end of last year, but it's still available anywhere you listen to podcast on. And I right now are in talks and I own it and so on. And I are in talks right now with a couple of different production companies about possibly turning this into a docu series.

[B]

Oh, yeah, this is wild.

[A]

Yeah. Because they go, what do you want out of it? What's the reason for doing this? And I said, for me, the reason is to shine a light on this whole system, the people in it and the people who benefit from it. Because I sure didn't benefit from it.

[B]

Hell no. But it's also wild to even think that our minds are so susceptible to memory and what is and what isn't. And the fact that you could live a day to day life. I'm getting up, I'm using the toilet. I'm going here. And you're like, I don't remember any of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it comes back.

[A]

So let's. Let's say right now, if we walked out of this building, we're in, right. And we got to the alley and prior to that, like if right now we said, okay, when we get to that alley, Eric, we're going to turn right. I said, great. Well, in the time it would take us to get down there, if you said, now, let's go to the left, I'd go, super. I would have no recollection of what we just agreed to. When. Michael. I'm sorry, When? When. When David Lingsheit came and saw me at cns. Okay. I couldn't tell you what he looked like. I remember walking in that morning and the woman at the desk said there was a detective here to see you. I said, okay, don't remember a thing after that. Here's what I do remember. I remember Courtney coming to pick me up and getting in the car and saying to her, you're not going to believe what happened today. Well, guess what actually happened. Yeah. Courtney didn't drive. I drove.

[B]

Wow. You drove. You shouldn't be driving. Clear.

[A]

I'm just telling you, this is how bad my brain function. Now. You. If I didn't open my mouth, there's no way in the world you could tell that I was mentally gone. But I could drive and I could function in ways that look normal, but it would take you a couple minutes for us to have a conversation and I'm repeating myself or you're having to. Or something along those lines.

[B]

Eric Kramer, I can't thank you enough for doing this. That is an incredible story. Before we promote here again at the end, I wanted to ask you advice you'd give to 16 year old Eric Kramer.

[A]

Okay, that's a great question. So I think what I would say is you're doing okay. And I think for kids, for people at that age, they're all kind of. We at that age, we were all faking it. We were all trying to fit in somehow, some way with somebody, some crowd. And what I would tell that 16 year old Eric Kramer is there's only one Eric Kramer.

[B]

Be that one great advice. Please, one more time. Promote everything you like.

[A]

Here we go. The ultimate comeback. As you pointed out, the subtitle is Surviving a Suicide Attempt, Conquering Depression and Living with a Purpose. And I think the living with a purpose one for me stands out because there's a couple of non profits I've formed, one of which we're going to have a youth football. It's going to be a football camp for kids that starts out they're going to be kids that just completed their freshman year of football.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it's. We're going to take them through their off season of their junior year. So three years and you can't pay for it. I'm raising everything for it. And we're going to work with you and your parents on your. Yes, you're going to become good football players, that's a given. But you're going to become even better people.

[B]

That's the thing I always tell my daughter. I'd rather be a better person and friend than a student. Yeah, I really would. Eric, thank you so much, man.

[A]

Well, thank you.

[B]

Appreciate you doing this. It was awesome.

[A]

Thanks for bringing some levity to all this as well.

[B]

This was great, man. As always, Ryan Sickler on all your social media. We'll talk to you all next week.

[A]

Ram.