The Toxin In Your Gut That's Slowly Killing You (here's the fix) : 1506

Summary

Podcast Summary:

The Human Upgrade™ with Dave Asprey
Episode 1506: "The Toxin In Your Gut That's Slowly Killing You (here's the fix)"
Date: July 23, 2026
Guest: Kiran Krishnan (Microbiome scientist and Chief Science Officer at Just Thrive)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dave Asprey explores the hidden dangers of endotoxins in the gut—specifically, how they drive chronic inflammation, accelerate aging, and undermine hormonal and metabolic health. Joined by microbiologist and repeat guest Kiran Krishnan, they dive deep into the science of the gut microbiome, detailing why most probiotics fail, how spore-based probiotics stand apart, and practical strategies for restoring microbial diversity to upgrade health and longevity.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Multifactorial Nature of Disease

• Dave Asprey: Opens the show reminding listeners that most diseases (e.g., heart disease, autism) are not caused by a single factor but by complex, multi-input systems, including the gut microbiome.

  "There is no one cause of heart disease. There is no one cause of autism. There is no one cause of almost anything interesting that your body does." (00:00)

2. Microbial Diversity & Chronic Disease (00:07–01:10, 17:30–20:49)

• Kiran Krishnan: Loss of microbial diversity is a major driver of chronic disease. Modern Western guts have only ~150 species vs. thousands in hunter-gatherers.
• The loss of Lactobacillus reuteri, which produces oxytocin ("the love hormone"), not only impairs individual health but may erode community bonding and empathy.

  "The loss of diversity is one of the big drivers of our risk development in chronic disease because the microbiome provides so much functionality to us." (00:07, 17:30) "One of those organisms... almost completely absent... is reuteri... produces oxytocin." (17:30)

3. Unseen Threat: Endotoxemia (07:07, 20:49–21:39, 37:51–42:47)

• Endotoxemia, the presence of bacterial endotoxins ("LPS" from gram-negative bacteria) in blood, is now recognized as the leading global cause of mortality/morbidity.
• Western diets and environmental toxins (e.g., glyphosate) destroy microbial diversity and select for more harmful, toxin-producing strains.

  "In 2015, there was a publication that showed that endotoxemia... was the number one cause of mortality and morbidity worldwide." (00:07, 42:47)

4. Why Most Probiotics Fail (05:27–07:20)

• Dave and Kiran explain that most probiotics (even top brands) get destroyed by stomach acid, which, at pH as low as 1.2, is similar to vultures and burns human skin.
• Parabiotics (dead bacteria) can still have limited benefits, but live, resilient strains are needed for true microbiome modulation.

  "98% of them got decimated within minutes going through the stomach..." (06:53)

5. Spore-Based Probiotics: Nature’s Solution (08:53–16:29, 34:42–36:33)

• Spore-formers like Bacillus subtilis naturally survive stomach acid and play pivotal roles in outcompeting pathogens (e.g., MRSA), modulating immunity, and restoring the gut lining.
• Spore probiotics may have helped populations avoid infections, and can produce so-called "bacterial antibiotics" that fight off problem organisms.

  "If nature made strains that can survive this incredible pH... that must be an important strain, right? It must do something special. And that's where these spore probiotics come in." (07:31–08:53) "People who are colonized with bacillus subtilis... would produce bacteria sins... and kill off the MRSA." (09:10)

6. Gut Diversity, Health & Generational Decline (17:30–20:49)

• Each generation's loss of key microbes may mean "losing organ systems," not just minor functions.
• Vaginal birth, breastfeeding, and early exposure to diverse bacteria are crucial for seeding a healthy microbiome in children.

  "We're losing organ systems... each generation is more and more susceptible..." (20:06–20:49)

7. Role of Butyrate & Microbial Ecosystems (22:41–27:54)

• Butyrate, a short-chain fatty acid made by specific gut bacteria, is crucial for youthfulness, inflammation control, mitochondrial function, immunity, and fat-burning (via AMPK).
• Spore-based probiotics can increase endogenous butyrate by 50% in 3 weeks; paired with resistant starch or prebiotics, up to 150%.

  "If you can maintain high levels of butyrate production endogenously, you're gonna be younger, your cells are gonna work better..." (22:41) "We saw about a 50% increase in butyrate production." (24:31)

8. Deep Dive: Endotoxins, Leaky Gut, and Systemic Inflammation (36:33–44:39)

• Endotoxins (LPS) from dying gram-negative bacteria cross a leaky gut barrier, causing systemic inflammation, metabolic slowdown, and immune activation.
• Modern chemicals (e.g., antifungals, glyphosate) increase gram-negative populations in soil and gut, compounding the problem.

  "Being able to stop endotoxins from migrating across the lining of the gut... is one of the most important health things you can do for yourself." (41:07)

• Liver protection (via HDL3) is vital for neutralizing circulating LPS.

9. Practical Probiotic Science (30:42–34:42, 36:33–38:16)

• Just Thrive's spore-formers use "quorum sensing"—they monitor the gut, identify problem bacteria, and support regrowth of keystone species while reducing pathobionts (e.g., C. diff).

  "The spores have the ability to identify C. Diff, circle around it and starve it of iron, thereby starving out the C. Diff." (32:43)

10. How Probiotics Can Affect Hormones, Sex, and Metabolism (57:17–61:06, 62:04–63:09)

• Endotoxins trigger the "gelding effect": increased LPS suppresses testosterone production (via brain inflammation and the HPA axis), raising cortisol—impacting fertility, erections, libido, and sperm count.

  "Increase in gut associated endotoxins actually hinders testosterone production... it's stopping testosterone from working and it's gelding you." (57:53–58:18)

• Spore-forming probiotics can reduce circulating LPS by up to 75% within 30 days—potentially reversing the gelding effect and supporting hormone balance.

11. Akkermansia, Fat Loss, and GLP-1 (62:40–66:47)

• The presence of keystone microbes like Akkermansia supports fat loss, tight fat cells, improved insulin response, and better mitochondrial function.
• Spore-formers stimulate the growth of Akkermansia and increase butyrate production—key levers for metabolic health.

  "In individuals with undetectable Akkermansia, we could see the presence of a thousandfold increase in three to four weeks by taking the spore probiotic." (63:09)

• Visceral fat mass reduced by 35%; insulin response improved by 45% in clinical trials over 90 days without lifestyle changes.

12. Social Transmission of Microbiome (49:19–51:16)

• Microbiome changes spread among household members—antibiotics or dysbiosis in one can affect the whole family.

  "Those individuals also had similar disruptions... because of one individual in the household that was taking an antibiotic." (50:44)

13. Vitamin K2 & Bone, Vascular Health (52:05–57:17)

• Certain gut bacteria, including Bacillus subtilis (from Just Thrive), produce vitamin K2, crucial for strong bones and vascular function.

  "We became one of the largest manufacturers of vitamin K2,7. And those are the same strains that we used in the Just Thrive probiotic." (54:29)

14. Traditional Bitters & Digestive Health (70:22–72:42)

• Bitters (from food or supplements) activate receptors throughout the digestive tract, triggering secretions and motility.
• Modern diets lack these compounds, contributing to poor digestion and food intolerance. Pairing bitters with probiotics enhances effectiveness.

  "About half of all your digestive signals are turned on by bitter compounds binding the bitter taste receptors." (71:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On gut health and aging:

  "If you can maintain high levels of butyrate production endogenously, you're gonna be younger." – Kiran Krishnan (00:32)

• On the resilience of spore probiotics:

  "When a bacteria is in a vegetative state, it means it's metabolically active. Now this type of bacteria can go from that vegetative state into a spore state... and it can remain dormant in that state for hundreds of millions of years." – Kiran Krishnan (15:00)

• On the gelding effect:

  "Increase in gut associated endotoxins actually hinders testosterone production ... gelding means to cut the balls off of ... your bad gut bacteria literally is called—it has a gelding effect." – (57:40–58:18)

• On restoring gut health:

  "Between charcoal and the Just Thrive spore based probiotics... what else can people do to stop toxins from leaking through their gut?" – Dave Asprey (44:14)

• On optimism and soil recovery:

  "Microbes are amazingly resilient given the interest in doing it. The problem is the interest has to come from the government..." – Kiran Krishnan (41:07)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• What destroys the Western gut & the loss of diversity: 00:07 – 01:10, 17:30 – 20:49
• Why stomach acid kills most probiotics: 05:27 – 07:20
• Antibiotics, spore probiotics, and microbial resilience: 08:53 – 16:29
• Impact of birth method and infant microbiome: 20:49 – 22:12
• Butyrate, cross-feeding, and metabolic health: 22:41 – 27:54
• Endotoxemia, environmental chemicals, and inflammation: 37:51 – 44:39
• Spore probiotics, keystone species, and SIBO: 30:42 – 32:43, 48:22 – 49:45
• Hormonal effects (“gelding effect”): 57:17 – 61:06
• Fat loss, Akkermansia, GLP-1, and insulin sensitivity: 62:40 – 66:47
• Bitters and digestive signaling: 70:22 – 72:42

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Key Takeaways & Practical Biohacks

• Restore Microbial Diversity: Focus on seeding and nurturing gut diversity through spore-forming probiotics (especially post-antibiotic or if born by C-section).
• Spore-Based Probiotics: These survive stomach acid, naturally rebalance the microbiome, crowd out pathogens (including C. diff, MRSA), and support keystone bacteria like Akkermansia.
• Control Endotoxins: Gut-derived LPS triggers systemic aging and chronic disease; reducing leaky gut and rebalancing bacteria can slash circulating endotoxins by up to 75% in a month.
• Support Butyrate Production: Aim for high endogenous butyrate (by feeding with prebiotics/resistant starch) to reduce inflammation, increase ketone production, and promote youthfulness.
• Combine Bitters: Use digestive bitters to enhance enzyme/bile release and maximize the effects of probiotics.
• 90-Day Protocol: Significant gut adaptation requires at least 90 days of probiotic/prebiotic support.
• Monitor Lifestyle Triggers: Recognize antibiotic use in one household member can affect all; prioritize whole family gut health.
• Protect Hormones: Reducing gut endotoxins may help maintain testosterone, libido, fertility, and metabolic health.

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Final Message

Upgrading your gut is a foundation for upgrading every aspect of your biology. The episode closes with practical advice to commit to a 90-day strategy using spore-based probiotics and digestive bitters—a fix for the stealth toxins killing energy, immunity, metabolism, and vitality.

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(End of summary)

Transcript

[Dave Asprey]

There is no one cause of heart disease. There is no one cause of autism. There is no one cause of almost anything interesting that your body does.

[Kieran Krishnan]

The loss of diversity is one of the big drivers of our risk development in chronic disease because the microbiome provides so much functionality to us. 2015, there was a publication that showed that endotoxemia, that is the presence of endotoxin in the blood, was the number one cause of mortality and morbidity worldwide.

[Dave Asprey]

Step one in biohacking in general is reduce toxin exposure.

[Kieran Krishnan]

If you can maintain high levels of butyrate production endogenously, you're gonna be younger.

[Dave Asprey]

As I'm 7% body fat, I'm getting to be probably in the best shape that I've ever been in, I would say, and of any age. And I'm not spending more than 20 minutes a week. You're listening to the Human upgrade with Dave Asprey. Maybe you've got your nutrition right and you're sleeping well. You take the supplements, you do cold plunges, red light therapy, breath work, and a full st of biohacking protocols. But why does the same health challenge keep showing up? Tyler Watson studies this pattern. He says a missing piece isn't another supplement or surface level fix. Sometimes the issue is a hidden pattern in your body in something called cellular memory. Tyler made something called the cellular alignment technique, and he helps people identify what those patterns are so you can shift out of them and stop getting the same outcomes. So you're not chasing symptoms, you're chasing the underlying trigger of the symptoms. If you want to understand what's driving you back into the same health and save years of time, money and energy figuring it out, visit fastest change.com that's fastest change.com it's really interesting. You're losing hair on your head and collagen in your skin right now, even though you probably can't see it yet. And that process speeds up as you age and it doesn't reverse on its own, but you can intervene at the cellular level. Studies show that specific wavelengths of red and near infrared light will stimulate your hair follicles. And that does support collagen production. Irestore has been making red light therapy devices that actually work for over two decades. And with their summer savings event, it's the perfect time to upgrade your hair and skincare. The Irestore elite is their most advanced laser hair growth system, using 300 lasers and 200 LEDs, which helps you regrow thicker, healthier hair in about three months. And it is really easy to use. You can wear it while you're working, while you're reading or unwinding at night. And The Illumina Face Mask 360 medical grade LEDs can turn red, infrared or even blue light at the same time to target all of your different skin concerns. Just 10 minutes a few times a week gives you brighter, smoother and healthier looking skin. I've been using the Iristore Elite and the Illumina Face mask while I work at home, but not on video. And they fit into my normal routine with no extra time cost. I really like it because I don't lose any time when I use it. Irestore is so confident you'll love their products that they give you a 12 month money back guarantee. That's because it actually works. You will see more hair. Irestore is kicking off their summer savings event with some huge discounts on their red light therapy devices. You can save on customer favorites like the Irestore Elite helmet and the Illumina Face Mask. Just head to irestore.com, use code Dave to take advantage of the sale. That's daveirestore.com Please support the show and tell them we sent you. Give your hair and skin the upgrade they deserve so you can feel confident and refreshed. If this isn't your first episode of the show, you probably know that I'm really interested in complex, what you'd call multifactorial things. That means things that are happening in your body that have more than one input. And big Pharma will tell you we're looking for the one cause of this. There is no one cause of heart disease. There is no one cause of autism. There is no one cause of almost anything interesting that your body does. We're looking at neuroscience with 40 years of Zen. I just spent a few hours last night with lots of sensors on my head and man, there's so much data, it's just crazy. And that may pale in comparison compared to the microbiome where not only are there. Well, we'll find out exactly how many species, but tens of thousands of species and probably a bunch we don't even know about. And they're all making different compounds which is an order of magnitude and bigger than that. And they're influenced by everything you do, including thinking stuff, staying up late, getting glyphosate in every orifice. Thank you, Monsanto, Bayer, Bill Gates and the whole mafia and all that kind of stuff. So what are we to do about that? Well, let's ask a research microbiologist who's been on the show four times. Kieran Krishnan is a top expert in the microbiome, has published multiple papers on it. And the big challenge is how the heck do you know which strains you want and how do you know how to get them in there so they work, given my 20. Actually wasn't 20. It was 15 years of taking antibiotics just about every month for chronic sinus and strep throat before I figured out toxic mold and all that. Fixing my gut has been a priority and even managing it today is a priority. So this is where I pay attention and Kieran's one of my go to guys. Kieran, welcome back to the show, my friend.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Thank you so much for having me. I love the new setup. I love being here. So thank you.

[Dave Asprey]

You are very welcome. By the way, we're recording this at the new Studios here at 40 years of Zen in Austin. Doesn't stomach acid just kill probiotics when you take them orally?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Great question. In fact, that's the first study I did when I got into this probiotic space 20 years ago. I took 45 of the top probiotics off the shelf. And my question as a microbiologist was we call it the gastric barrier for a reason, because it's designed to kill stuff. Right.

[Dave Asprey]

And hold on, you mean like the food you eat could have bad bacteria and your body would have a system for removing bacteria from food when you eat it?

[Kieran Krishnan]

So weird, right? Shocking. Yeah. And the fact that we live in a microbial environment and we need protection from them and the stomach acid. What people don't understand is the PH of a stomach, it can be as low as 1.2, 1.4.

[Dave Asprey]

Aren't we almost like vulture level of ph?

[Kieran Krishnan]

We are. We're like the fourth lowest in the animal kingdom. Right. So we have an amazing amount. And to put it in perspective, for people that don't understand what that PH is, if you had a pH of 1.2 in your stomach, which a lot of us do, you put your, you touch that with your finger, it'll burn off your fingertips instantly. Wow. Right? So it's very intense, right? It's a very intense acidic environment. So that gastric ph is going to kill stuff going through. So now you take a lot of the conventional probiotics, which I call kind of the kitchen sink formulas, where you just kind of throw a bunch of stuff in there. And what we found was that 98% of them got decimated within minutes going

[Dave Asprey]

through the stomach because that same system has to kill Parasites and bacteria. So you don't get sick every time you eat.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Exactly.

[Dave Asprey]

It makes a lot of sense.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay.

[Kieran Krishnan]

There's a little bit of a selection process, right. And so most probiotics are dying, they're getting decimated. Parts of them are going through your system. Now, in fairness, there are a few strains where even parts of them can be metabolically active, which could be beneficial. Right. And that's.

[Dave Asprey]

This is called parabiotics. These are the dead bodies, for lack of a better word, of the probiotics are beneficial in and of themselves. But live ones would be better.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Live ones would be better, Especially live ones that can move the microbiome in one way or the other. Now, the paraprobiotics. So if you think about all of the microbes in the environment, in our food that we're supposed to be that we consume when they die and their debris goes into the gut, right. We've all heard the term that the gut has the largest amount of immune cells. So something like 70, 80% of the immune system is in the gut. One of the benefits of that is your immune system gets to sample all of the types of microbes in your environment without them being harmful. So it's a very natural process, right, to have microbes going in. They get decimated. Their parts are now sampled by the immune system. Now the immune system learns about your environment and then it can adapt to that environment. It can build T cells and b cel against those bacterial parts should they come in and survive. Right? So that part is very natural. And that's what most probiotics end up going through. Some of them can act and provide some benefit, but if you can find a strain or strains that can naturally survive the gastric system, that's where I became really interested because I was like, whoa. If nature made strains that can survive this incredible ph, this gauntlet that wards off bacteria and it can get into the gut alive, that must be an important strain, Right? It must do something special. And that's where these spore probiotics come in.

[Dave Asprey]

Do you think Fauci has ever looked at these spore forming bacteria to see if he could ruin them and make them toxic to humans?

[Kieran Krishnan]

I'm sure he has, because why wouldn't he? Right? It's part of the master plan, I would guess. But interestingly enough, the agency that he ran out of, the NIH Allergy and Immunity Agency, they actually did a study out of Thailand when MRSA was a big issue. Right. Methicillin resistant Staph aureus, and they Were looking at populations in Thailand and comparing people that had MRSA colonization and people who did not have MRSA colonization. And they sampled all kinds of body sites and they were trying to figure out why some people could have MRSA all the time and some people just simply didn't, even in the same ecosystem. What they found was there was one factor that differentiated those two sets of people. The one factor was the presence of bacillus subtilis, which is the key spore probiotic. People who are colonized with bacillus subtilis in different orifices in their gut, in their mucosal tissue, and so on. Right. And we love that word orifice. Right. And so when you, when you have that colonization, the bacillus subtilis not only would compete against mrsa, but it would produce bacteria sins even distal from the MRSA that would circulate in your body and kill off the mrsa.

[Dave Asprey]

It makes sense because we have this idea of antibiotics, which are primarily made by fungus.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Right.

[Dave Asprey]

And sometimes by mold. Right. And they fight bacteria, but bacteria fight each other as well. So they're going to have either chemical weapons or physical weapons. They can engulf and digest and things like that. So of course you should be able to have bacteria derived antibiotics that just doesn't kill you, but kills your other fellow bacteria. Okay.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

So isn't that subtilis strain, isn't that the one that Covid decimates? There's one strain of gut bacteria that Covid removes.

[Kieran Krishnan]

So Covid removes can infect bifidobacteria as well.

[Dave Asprey]

Bifido is what it does. Okay. It's not the subtilis.

[Kieran Krishnan]

It's not subtilis. Subtilis is very hardy and it makes antiviral compounds too. So it actually plays a very important role in that initial response to viruses. So when your cells get infected by virus, they shoot off these interleukins. Right. And as a result, they're basically shooting off flares going, hey, something's infecting me. The bacillus in the region will actually produce antivir to suppress the viral infection and the viral spread. Yeah, but the COVID can infect your endogenous bifido, which becomes a huge problem because not only does it kill off the bifido, but it can capture the bifido and create spike protein over and over again. So your gut becomes a spike protein factory.

[Dave Asprey]

Hold on. The spike factor thing isn't just happening inside human cells. So this is the COVID vaccine causes your gut bacteria to also make spike protein yeah.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Anytime you put that MRNA into the system.

[Dave Asprey]

How did I not know that it

[Kieran Krishnan]

can actually utilize bacterial machinery to also reproduce, spike protein.

[Dave Asprey]

So then maybe you should just take a bunch of antibiotics and kill your gut bacteria if you got vaccinated and then repopulate them with ones that aren't.

[Kieran Krishnan]

That'd be the hope that you could do that. Right? It'd be a massive fecal transplant to be able to do that. Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh my gosh. There's gonna be a big market for poop.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, there is.

[Dave Asprey]

Yep. You ever done a fecal matter transplant?

[Kieran Krishnan]

I haven't on myself. No.

[Dave Asprey]

Have you done it on someone else?

[Kieran Krishnan]

I, I've, I've guided people in doing it. Yes. Yes. It's not the prettiest thing in the

[Dave Asprey]

world, but it doesn't sound very attractive.

[Kieran Krishnan]

No.

[Dave Asprey]

Not saying whether I've done it or

[Kieran Krishnan]

not, but it can be so powerful though, right?

[Dave Asprey]

I noticed the difference.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah. Yeah, because. Because you know what, what you were saying in your intro is the m. Multifactorial component. Right. So when you take a fecal matter transplant, you're taking a network of, of inputs that work together synergistically and putting it into the system versus a small molecule like a drug. Right. Which is. Affects one pathway. You're taking an entire network and ecosystem, putting it in there, and it can have a dramatic change in how your body functions.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah. It's like instead of spilling a few seeds in a forest from somewhere else, you basically drop a couple acres of a forest from somewhere else. It's going to start competing.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Totally. Wow.

[Dave Asprey]

So, so interesting. Now there's a way to get past all this gastric stomach acid stuff. So how do you look at getting probiotics into the system to get it past the stomach acid?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah. So for me, you know, there's the capsule technology stuff. Right. That we can do. But I wanted to look beyond that because to me, what I want to look at was what does nature actually have that naturally survives through the gastric system?

[Dave Asprey]

Okay, so when you say that the capsule system, you guys have probably heard enteric coated or specially coated things so that they don't get broken down by stomach acids, then they make it past the stomach into the small intestine and then open up there.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, exactly. The issue with that, to me, is that we're forcing something to do something it's not naturally designed to do. Right. So then the question was, are there microbes that can actually survive gastric acid? And if that's the case, then there's probably a Purpose for that, them to be able to do that.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay.

[Kieran Krishnan]

You know, so that's when we went to these spore based probiotics. So we started looking at the spore strains and said, okay, number one, are they naturally occurring in the gut in the microbiome? Right. And you. And we find that there's tons of studies that support that. We worked with Royal Holloway University of London and they did a lot of work showing that spore based bacteria are naturally occurring in the gut.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay. This is the Just Thrive brand, your chief science officer.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Exactly. Yep. This is Just Thrive. And not all spores are created equal as well. Right. Because spores are fairly ubiquitous in this, this beautiful outdoor area that you have around you. You probably have spores all over the soil and all that. But most of them probably wouldn't be able to function in the gut.

[Dave Asprey]

And to be clear, when you hear the word spore, usually you think of mold or some kind of fungus, but bacteria, some of them also make spores. And that's what we're talking about.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Exactly. It's part of their life cycle. So what they do when bacteria are normal functioning cell and they're metabolically active, they're dividing. They're called actually vegetatives, which is counterintuitive because a human who's in a vegetative state is basically a vegetable, right?

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah. Like a politician.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Exactly. Right, exactly. And so, but when a bacteria is in a vegetative state, it means it's metabolically active. Now this type of bacteria can go from that vegetative state into a spore state where it's basically covering itself with a protein hardened, calcified coating that is incredibly resistant. Right. And then it has little sensors sticking out of this protein and it can remain dormant in that state for hundreds of millions of years.

[Dave Asprey]

That's a superpower that I want.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yes. Can you imagine?

[Dave Asprey]

I'll be able to coat myself in calcium and just chill for 10 years and wait till all the dumb stuff blows over.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Blows away. Right? Yes. And it completely. And here's the beauty of it. I currently work with the retired professor who pioneered some of this work, Raul Kano. He was able to identify in caves in Southern California, in amber, in a honeybee, in an ancient honeybee, in amber, bacterial spores that have been dormant for over 50 million years.

[Dave Asprey]

Did he grow them?

[Kieran Krishnan]

So then he was able to grow them. And here's the beauty of it. He was not only able to grow them, he was able to ferment with them. And they actually made 50 million year old kombucha for his daughter's wedding.

[Dave Asprey]

I think I saw this show. It was called the Last of Us was that.

[Kieran Krishnan]

The spores will be here, you know, well, well after us. So they were here well before. Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Now, was that kombucha? Was it functionally different? I mean, were those bacteria unique?

[Kieran Krishnan]

So they had about 95% genetic homology to what we find today in our gut, which is close.

[Dave Asprey]

They're an ancestor, okay?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, they're an ancestor, but they fermented beautifully. They made a lot of peptides and acids and, you know, short chain fatty acids and things in the kombucha. And it was full of nutrients. It was amazing. It's, it's what it naturally does.

[Dave Asprey]

He, he missed the opportunity. Could have been selling sourdough culture for sourdough with 50 million year old spores.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Right.

[Dave Asprey]

Eat that up. I'd try it.

[Kieran Krishnan]

I would try it too. Yeah, I, I, maybe it's not too late for that.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay. All right, hook me up.

[Kieran Krishnan]

The cultures are there. It's sitting there ready to go. Wow.

[Dave Asprey]

So interesting. Do you worry that we're losing diversity in our microbiome?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yes. So as a microbiome nerd, that's one of the things that keeps me up at night. When I was running a company called Microbiome Labs, which is in the practitioner space, we developed a microbiome test. And that microbiome test, we'd done maybe 15,000 microbiome tests. What was crazy about it is the average diversity in the western gut, in the US gut more specifically, is already significantly low. We would see about 140, 150 different species. That's insane, insanely low. If you look at our hunter gatherer ancestors, their closest ancestors, the Hadza tribe and people like that, they've got thousands of species, so we've lost many of those. One of those, one of those organisms that is almost completely absent from the North American gut and even the European gut is rudai, lactobacillus rudai. Right. And then you go, well, okay, what is the impact of something like that? One of the things that rooteri is known to do is produce oxytocin. Right. Which is the love hormone bonding hormone, Very important for community structures and all that.

[Dave Asprey]

And we got to get rid of that, right?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah. Why would we need that?

[Dave Asprey]

The current agenda is to remove community spirits. And no yogurt for you, young man.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Exactly. And then, and then you see, you see all the trolling online and all that stuff that people do, right? I mean, that's a lack of rooter eye. They have no sense of community, no sense of empathy and so on.

[Dave Asprey]

That's what happened to Biolane. It makes so much sense. I just thought it was a lack of urine therapy, but. Okay.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Lack of root or eye. It's, it's. And so, you know, when you, when you look at that, the harm that that can cause to a civilization, it's. It's immeasurable. Right. Because if you, if you start losing that empathy for your fellow human from the lack of this microbe that creates so many problems. And I think it's, it's exemplified in the society.

[Dave Asprey]

It's the old alchemy, as above, so below.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Exactly.

[Dave Asprey]

Community is dysregulated. Your community is dysregulated.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Absolutely. So, so the loss. And, and I, you know, not to be an alarmist about it, but I do want to be a little bit alarming, but the loss of diversity is one of the big drivers of our risk development in chronic disease because the microbiome provides so much functionality to us. Right. So we've got something like 22,000 functional genes, debates, 22, 21 somewhere around there. But a cockroach has about 22,000 functional genes. An earthworm has about 30,000 functional genes. So we're not all that sophisticated when it comes to our genetics, but we have two and a half million microbial genes in our system, and those microbial genes provide us so much functionality. So when we lose large populations of microbes generation to generation, we're completely losing functionality. Right. It'd be the same as if I said to you, our choices today means our kids would be born without a spleen. Yeah, right. And then their kids would be born with one kidney and no spleen. We're losing organ systems.

[Dave Asprey]

That explains everything.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, absolutely. Explains everything. You know, and as a result, each generation is more and more susceptible to why you see all these conditions increasing.

[Dave Asprey]

That makes so much sense. And we know that when you get a C section birth that those children do not have healthy microbiomes. That's why very recently, if you're in a progressive hospital, they'll. Instead of just having the vaginal birth, which a lot of women can do, but it didn't line up with OB GYN's golf schedule. But at least get a piece of gauze with some bacteria from mom on it. In the case of my kids, we did have a vaginal birth. I caught them both at home. But then we put a Lactobacillus infantalis on mom's nipples during the first nursing to make sure that the population of gut bacteria was healthy, so that we'd get a good start on that. And I think it's worked. I mean, how do you know?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, I mean, if they have low levels of allergies, asthma, if they generally healthy, then that's, that's, It's a good sign.

[Dave Asprey]

Kids are shockingly healthy. I'm, I'm very grateful. So. Yeah, maybe it helped.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

You also got my jeans, which are not the healthy genes, my high performance, but not healthy.

[Kieran Krishnan]

So. Well, and, and they've, they've combated that. Right. With. With their health. So, like, if you think about you at their age, how unhealthy you were versus they are.

[Dave Asprey]

I was a total show. And I look at my kids and they're just, they're shining. I'm, I'm, I'm really grateful. And. Yeah.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

The health problems they've had are a tiny fraction of their, of their, their peers. And I think it's. Well, they did grow up on an organic farm.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Right. That helps.

[Dave Asprey]

I did that on purpose because I read the research.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Right.

[Dave Asprey]

It was a pain in the butt, but. And a lot of the research circled around microbiome.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Now, one of the things that we talked about earlier, fecal transplants. Right. Taking someone else's poop and introducing it via the back door. Yep. When they do that with young poop in animals or in humans and they put it in old animals, the animals get younger. Is there some way to get these effects without putting someone's poop in you?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah. So you can. I think one of the reasons is because of the. What we call cross feeding within the microbiome. Right. So the microbiome is this complex network of organisms. There are primary degraders, secondary tertiary degraders. When the primary degraders break down something, they feed the next layer of microbes, and then they produce compounds that are important. One of the ones that you know very well is butyrate. Right. So we know how important butyrate is for virtually everything. And if you can maintain high levels of butyrate production endogenously, you're gonna be younger, your cells are gonna work better, your mitochondria is functioning, your immune system, metabolic health, everything. Right. Insulin resistance. But how does butyrate get made in the gut? So fibers, resistant starches go in the first primary degraders break those down into lactate and lactic acid specifically, and then acetate. And those are organisms like Rheumnococcus, for example. Then those byproducts, the lactate and the acetate go to organisms like Faecalaebacteria prosnitzii, which then finally convert them into butyrate. Right. So if you didn't have that chain, if you didn't have enough rheumatococcus to do that first degradation, you're not getting the substrates for the faecalae bacteria to make the butyrate. Or if you have low faecalae bacteria, you're making acetate and lactate, but you're not converting it into butyrate. So that ecosystem, that network, that cross feeding, is really important. So one of the things that you're doing, if you do, for example, a fecal transplant from a young person or older person, is you're reestablishing those networks and that cross feeding. Now what we've shown in a published study is you can re establish that with just the spore probiotics as well. We published a paper in 2018 where we showed if you add the spores into your microbiome in three weeks, you see about a 50% increase in butyrate production.

[Dave Asprey]

Endogenously massive.

[Kieran Krishnan]

It's huge, right?

[Dave Asprey]

Your doctor said your labs look normal. Okay, then why don't you feel like yourself? Why are you exhausted all the time? Why has your body stopped responding to the things that used to work? That's why Gatlin exists. Gatlin is a physician led optimization program for people who know something is off even when the conventional system says everything looks fine. It's also for people who want more energy, better recovery, better sleep and long term performance. Because the current system often waits for disease, Most people get 10 minutes with a doctor, a basic blood panel and a vague everything looks normal even when they still feel off. Gatlin does things differently. You speak with a licensed medical provider and you get comprehensive labs. And depending on your needs, your plan may include hormone support, thyroid support, peptide therapy and longevity focused care personalized around your actual biology. Not one size fits all medicine. Feeling off shouldn't be dismissed just because it's common. Start your journey [e-mail] Dave and use code Dave. That's G A T L-A-N.com Dave code Dave. What if the protein that you spend tons of money on is mostly going to waste? Turns out when you eat protein, your body breaks it down into these amino acids and decides what to do with them. And the decision about where your body applies those precious amino acids depends on which ones show up and in what ratio. And if the ratio is wrong, I'm looking at you plant based protein and the Protein you're eating isn't doing what you think it is. You're not going to get the results you want. Perfect amino from Body Health gets it right. All eight essential amino acids in a precise ratio up to 99% will go directly towards building new protein muscle and collagen. It absorbs in under 30 minutes with just about zero caloric impact and it won't break a fast. And if you're like most people, you have a hard time getting one gram of animal protein per pound of body weight, which is what I've recommended for years. This is a way to get the amino acids that you would have had if you ate all of that protein. So perfect amino is an easy and convenient way to get more of what you need. And it works. I'm still working out less than 20 minutes. I had two scoops of perfect amino this morning. I'll have two more at night and I do that most days and nights. Go to bodyhealth.com and use code DAVE20 and get 20% off your first purchase. That's dave20bodyhealth.com I really like perfect aminos and I've used them for a long time. And the inventor is a wizard. And one thing that people oftentimes don't know is that butyrate itself is directly anti inflammatory.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

But it's also a very powerful generator of ketones in the body. So even if you had some carbs and then you were to have the right gut bacteria in your gut, as they ferment things, they'll make butyrate, which turns off inflammation and turns up ketones. Even if you're not in full ketosis, having some ketones present is really, really beneficial.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, for sure. And then it also turns on something called ampk, which is your fat burning system.

[Dave Asprey]

Right. Which stacks with caffeine, which does it as well.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, exactly. And so when you take the Just Thrive probiotic and you take it, and especially when you add, add things like resistant starches or prebiotics with it, we. So in that same study we did both and when we added the resistant starch and the prebiotics, what we saw was about 150% increase. Wow. It tripled the effect. Right. And that prebiotic is like oligosaccharides. Just Thrive team has the same prebiotic that we use.

[Dave Asprey]

It's good stuff. I actually use it now. Did you see that study where they tested doctors for weight loss? Just like, okay, give your advice to this patient or a Doctor armed with A.I. or just A.I. or just AI no, I'm not.

[Kieran Krishnan]

I'm not familiar with this one.

[Dave Asprey]

It was very interesting because the AI trounced doctors with AI or doctors. And this isn't to pick on doctors. It's that doctors were more conservative. They have standard of care and insurance companies, all that crap. And what the AI did is it relied on AMPK signaling. Way more so caffeine and butyrate microbiome. Things where the science is there, but we don't think of it that way.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Right.

[Dave Asprey]

So part of my strategy. And because I'm 7% body fat, I'm getting to be probably in the best shape that I've ever been in, I would say, and of any age. And I'm not spending more than 20 minutes a week in the dinner.

[Kieran Krishnan]

I heard that.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah, I am using some interesting new electrical stuff that you guys would not predict. But mostly I'm not picking up a lot of heavy stuff and using some AI OxFit kind of thing. But I'm distracting myself. The idea here is that I religiously make sure that I get my correct microbiome and I'm using just Thrive. It's not the only thing I use, but just to be clear for everybody. But it's part of the stack because of the spore forming very specifically. And I also look at my butyrate levels, so I know that I'm getting butyrate because I'm using just Thrive. I also take. Take directly some extra butyrate because it acts as a postbiotic to help. Even the stuff that just thrive makes. When it sees butyrate, it'll make more butyrate. It's a signaling to it. So doing that stuff, I mean, I cannot believe how I feel right now. And this is coming from a guy who's on antibiotics for decades and had the worst gut ever and £300 and all that. So I'm grateful and I'm still kind of stuck because I am in a really fortunate position with Unlimited Life, our concierge life extension program. We do a full microbiome analysis. We do a full genetic analysis. Like, we have $50,000 worth of lab work. So of course I have that on myself.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Right.

[Dave Asprey]

Right. And I don't. I don't publish all of my individual stuff because, frankly, if most humans did what I did, they would probably just fill their pants.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Right.

[Dave Asprey]

Like. Like, you shouldn't do what I do. You should look at your goals and your current state and like, let's plot something together to get you there. Because we're not all the Same. And so I love N of 1 studies to get your own results and to share what worked, but not to tell everyone else to do what you did. You got to know the mechanisms. So how will people know whether Just Thrive is going to shift their microbiome in a good way or in a not so good way, given that it's so complex?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, yeah, great question. So that really important. And in fact, we've tested this quite extensively. Right. So one of the things we know about the spores is that they do something called quorum sensing. And quorum sensing is a beautiful mechanism. Right. So cool. Bacteria can read each other's chemical signatures. They can understand who's there and who's not there. They can even understand the levels of different microbes in there. And the spores in the Just Thrive product does do that. Does that much better than almost any other organisms I've looked at. So one of the things that they do is they come into the gut and they modulate what's happening in each individual gut. They have it in them. Given that they've been here for so long and they've been in the human gut for so long, they have a blueprint as to what the gut should look like generally. Right. What organisms are problematic, which organisms should be good and which ones should be bad. So we saw this. We took numerous individuals with different microbiomes and then we started exposing their microbiomes to the Just thrive probiotics. And what we saw was a different modulation on each one, but the general improvement was significant increase in diversity in each microbiome, a significant increase in keystone species, which are the most important microbes that hold up the entire network, and then a significant reduction in what we call pathobiones. And pathobionts are these organisms within your gut that under the right circumstances can become pathogenic. They're kind of opportunistic. They sit there, they wait for the right circumstance. A great example of that is Clostridium difficile, C. Diff. Right. We all have some degree of C. Diff in us. Given enough antibiotics and enough damage to your microbiome, it'll start to proliferate, even with C. Diff. We did a study with Cleveland Clinic, in fact, two published papers on this, showing that the spores have the ability to identify C. Diff, circle around it and starve it of iron, thereby starving out the C. Diff. This was done at Cleveland Clinic and published in two major journals.

[Dave Asprey]

So the number of people who die in hospitals of C. Diff is very large. And some Spore forming probiotics could probably stop a good portion of that.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah. And it'll be protective of your gut ongoing. What it demonstrates is that there is an innate intelligence within the microbial ecosystem and community. Right. Yeah. We're essentially made up of microbes.

[Dave Asprey]

I mean, people don't like to think of it this way, but if you've ever seen a scoby inside kombucha, it's kind of gross. I used to make my own kombucha with the kids. And it looks like it's an organ from your body.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yes.

[Dave Asprey]

It's like it's kind of hard and squishy at the same time. And in science fiction you could use it as like the alien egg and it's got slimy jellyfish like stuff underneath it. It's a self organizing mat of yeast and bacteria that has a circulatory system. Very basic one and all. And it's remarkable. But you see that and it's very clearly alive. Right. And then you look at your own body and you realize that the primary organizer of the body is bacterial. It's the mitochondria.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yep.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, and they do quorum sensing with each other.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

One of the. One of the earlier podcasts I did with Leeman Baird from Carnegie Mellon, who's a top expert in crypto, is the quorum sensing algorithms that mitochondria use are the same ones we use in crypto.

[Kieran Krishnan]

That's crazy.

[Dave Asprey]

It's so funny.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Wow, that's amazing.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah. And so if we're. That, of course, manipulating this bacteria would be critical for us, but it's such a dark art. You look in Ayurveda or traditional Chinese medicine, take this herb or have this fermented food, but then which fermented food, fermented where and at what temperature and all that. It almost feels, even to me, where I'm kind of, I can do whatever I want. It feels kind of overwhelming. Yeah, right.

[Kieran Krishnan]

It does.

[Dave Asprey]

And so when you, after 20 years worked with the microbiome, you boiled it down and you found there's four species that move the needle the most.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Dave Asprey]

That's insane. How did you know it was those four?

[Kieran Krishnan]

So we worked a lot with University of London, Royal Holloway University, London. They are the preeminent spore researchers in the world. There were a couple of criteria that we wanted to, we were looking for in the strains to find ones that were going to move the needle the most. Number one is they had to naturally survive the gastric system. Right. So not all spores are as hardy and be able to do that. Number two, and this is actually an important thing but we haven't talked about yet, is their ability to produce biofilms. Because most of the good bacteria in your gut also live within biofilms. And that's the network, right. That's how they communicate with each other instantaneously and so on. And they protect one another. So the ability to produce biofilms is really important for protecting the microbiome. Number three, we were looking for organisms that we call silent. Right. What's interesting about most probiotic bacteria is they actually can upregulate inflammation because they turn on all of the inflammatory pathways. TH1, TH2, TH17, and so on. Because your body sees microbes coming in or debris of microbes, and it goes, I don't know what all this is. Let's fire up the immune system. Immune system, right. And so it fires it up. We were looking for microbes that actually did not fire up the inflammatory part of the immune system, yet turned on the regulatory part of the immune system, called a Treg system. So that was another criteria. And then the quorum sensing component of it. So we said if we found strains that had all of these features, they would be profound for the gut. Right. And then that's what we started studying. And of course, one of the first studies we did was on leaky gut, showing that we could reduce leaky gut significantly by about 75% intensity. Right. In terms of endotoxins and LPS leaking through in 30 days. In college students who are doing nothing good for themselves in 30 days, they're

[Dave Asprey]

doing pizza and alcohol, which both are going to just poke holes in your gut.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Totally.

[Dave Asprey]

I don't think I've talked about this too much publicly, but one of the genetic gifts that I have is that my collagen doesn't form tight junctions. So I get more leaky gut than the average person. And leaky blood vessels. That's why cardiovascular risk is relatively high. Like, if something dumb is going to take me out, it would be that. So I manage that risk carefully. But the leaky gut's a problem because when you have leaky gut, gut bacteria make toxins called endotoxins and they go through the gut. I have another gene that when it detects an endotoxin, it shreds my protein in the body. So I get tissue death, which means for the normal person, oh, I got a little bit of brain fog and stiffness because I ate a bunch of pizza and got dysbiosis. For me, Okay. I didn't have to eat the pizza to have the leaky gut. And if there's anything going on in there, I wake up and I'm like a car hit me. So it's made me a great guinea pig. And it's why, when I launched the biohacking movement and I taught people about food with my old book, the Bulletproof Diet. Today it would be called the Danger Diet, because danger coffee is my new way better. But anyway, step one in biohacking in general is reduce toxin exposure.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yep.

[Dave Asprey]

And I don't care if it's junk lights, I don't care if it's seed oils. I don't care if it's glyphosate or mold toxins or endotoxins, whatever. Get the toxins out because they're foundational, and then you add the nutrients back in and work on metabolic sufficiency and all that. So it helped me have a toxic centric lens that's helped millions of people. You've studied endotoxins a lot. How do you define endotoxins for laypeople?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah. So endotoxins are in the term itself. So endo meaning from within. Right. So this is a toxin that is generated in the body. We can't get away from it. Now, the reason it's considered a toxin is because it creates an inflammatory response that can create tissue tissue damage, like you said, and it does that in everybody. In your case, it's doing that in a much more accelerated manner. Now, why does it create that inflammatory response? Right. The reason is because endotoxins, the LPS that we talked about, are part of gram negative bacteria. Here's what's really interesting when you look at microbial ecology of the human system back in the day, 20 million years ago, 10 million years ago, 15 million years ago, when you take samples from things like, like amber and soil and ice cores and all that, there were very few gram negative bacteria in the environment. Most bacteria are gram positive.

[Dave Asprey]

I didn't know that.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah. That is an evolutionary change that has occurred over time that has created an issue even in the human system.

[Dave Asprey]

Why did it shift that way?

[Kieran Krishnan]

So a lot of it is because of competition. So from fungus and mold overgrowing. So gram positive bacteria are more susceptible to the fungal antibiotics, and then that gives rise to the gram negative bacteria. And gram negative bacteria don't have a cell wall. Right. So gram positive bacteria have a rigid cell wall structure. So in some cases, without the rigid cell wall structure, it was easier to absorb nutrients and Work the metabolic things that bacteria do. And so certain environmental changes favored gram negative bacteria. Okay. Even in the human system, we are more designed to have gram positive bacteria than gram negative. But in the modern America, we look at people in North America, we have a high percentage of gram negative bacteria in our gut.

[Dave Asprey]

You know who did that? I think, I think it was the big chemical companies. This is all Rockefeller. And it's garbage that's come ever since because we started spraying these really strong antifungals.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yep.

[Dave Asprey]

Mostly on citrus crops and on some cereal crops. And so that made the mold respond and the fungus respond to be far more aggressive. So it makes more aggressive antibiotics. So the bacteria respond and say, I don't need to have a cell wall or cell membrane, I'll just get rid of that. So I'm not susceptible. So we've seen a hundred x increase in the amount of toxins made by fungus where glyphosate is applied, which means the bacteria in the soil is going to change, which means the bacteria in us changes. So it's almost like if you take some toxins that mess with your gut bacteria, that's going to be bad. I'm looking at you, glyphosate. But then if you took those same things and you spread them in the environment and affect the soil bacteria, it's going to do the same thing to the environment. And so I sometimes I wonder like, are we going to be able to recover our soil? Are you hopeful on that front?

[Kieran Krishnan]

I, you know, there's a lot of work going on in that area. I was part of a research project that was looking at that. I am hopeful because microbes are amazingly resilient given the interest in doing it. The problem is the interest has to come from the government level because it's such a big project. If there is interest, it can be done, it can be done tomorrow. We have the technology to do it right. Reculture the soil, if you will. But that change, that change that has occurred in the ecosystem has also then affected our ecosystem. So now we have a much more, a much higher prevalence of gram negative bacteria that make this lps. And when the grammar Medicare bacteria die and they release their LPS in the lining of the gut, that LPS leaks through. And your body has very specific mechanisms to identify LPS because it is a signal to your immune system that you may be undergoing bacteremia or sepsis. Right. And we all know how dangerous sepsis is. You can go from being perfectly healthy to on death's doorsteps in 48 hours. So the way your body, body deals with the presence of endotoxins, LPS specifically is it's like a mini sepsis that's happening in your body all the time. Right. It happens in your brain and your muscles, in your heart, everywhere. The endotoxins can leak through. So your immune system takes it very seriously. So being able to stop endotoxins from migrating across the lining of the gut and entering into circulation is one of the most important health things you can do for yourself. Because in 2015 there was a publication that showed that that endotoxemia, that is the presence of endotoxin in the blood, was the number one cause of mortality and morbidity worldwide.

[Dave Asprey]

Yes. This is why for longevity, I mean you gotta get that under control. And here's something that people aren't gonna like. What macronutrient brings lipopolysaccharides or these gut toxins across the gut barrier best.

[Kieran Krishnan]

So certain types of fats.

[Dave Asprey]

Yes, fat. A high fat diet, actually any kind of fat. But some types are better than others will bring it across, including one of the medium chain triglyceride fats, the one I have never used, but the one that on it uses in its formula because when they copied the bulletproof stuff, they didn't have the science. It's lauric acid. So lauric acid is one of the best escorters of toxins across the gut. It's also the only MCT oil that doesn't turn into ketones effectively, but it's the cheapest one, so you could put it in a product. And so, so what happens if you want to eat healthy fats so you can have healthy cell membranes which are made out of fats is you've got to have the right microbes in the gut when you eat the fats or you have to bind the toxins, which is why I put charcoal on the biohacking roadmap early on. And people also probably haven't seen the studies. MCT oil, not the cheap stuff, but the good mcts protects the liver from LPS toxins. It's built into the recommendations that I do that says you have to handle endotoxins. So between charcoal and the just thrive spore based probiotics, which we already just talked about, what else can people do to stop toxins from leaking through their gut?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, so protecting the liver is a very important part of it. Right. Because when things leak through the lining of the gut, 85% of that volume goes to the liver. Liver first, because it goes through the portal circulation. Now, the liver has two mechanisms to stop LPS from going into the broad circulation. It produces something called HDL3, high density lipoprotein 3, which then binds the LPS directly.

[Dave Asprey]

Wait, isn't that the most protective kind of cholesterol? Almost like you need cholesterol.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Oh, sorry. Exactly. Yes, the good cholesterol. Right. Quote, unquote. So that's one. And then. And then it also makes something called call LPS binding protein LBP, which specifically both of those things bind LPS. Now, it's better to have the HDL3. Why? Because what the HDL3 does is it binds the LPS and takes it to cells in the liver called Kupfer cells. And those Kupfer cells immediately neutralizes it, and there's no immune response. When lpp, the LPS binding protein, binds lps, it actually turns on a massive inflammatory response. Right. And so that's part of where you get the systemic inflammation from LPS is that LBP binds it and it does so primarily in circulation. So as much as you can have your liver dealing with the LPS by up regulating HDL3, then you're going to have much better control of LPS going out into circulation.

[Dave Asprey]

Would you believe your toothpaste probably has a poison warning label on it? Seriously, Go check it out. If it's any major brand, you're going to see the ingredients include fluoride, foaming agents like sodium lauryl sulfate, artificial sweeteners like sucralose, and colorings like titanium dioxide, yellow 5 and blue number one. This is something you put in your mouth twice a day, every single day. But Redmond leaf toothpaste is different. Instead of fluoride, which is not good for you, it uses micro hydroxyapatite, which is a mineral mineral that's naturally bound in your tooth enamel. So it actually works with your teeth instead of coating them with chemicals. And the formula also includes Redmond's signature bentonite clay for polishing, and xylitol and erythritol for natural sweetness. So that's it. No junk, no fillers, no ingredients that you might need a chemistry degree to even understand. And there's no poison warning on Redmond toothpaste. It tastes great. It feels smooth and creamy like real toothpaste. And it comes in wild mint and citrus rosemary and orange vanilla. And they're all good, but my favorite is wild mint, although orange vanilla is really a close follow up. And it comes from Redmond. They've been mining salt and clay from an Ancient seabed in Utah since 1958. It's a company that spent generations doing mineral based products the right way, long before clean oral care was trans. Ready to give Leaf a try, go to Redmond.com Asprey they'll give you 15% off your first order. That's Redmond.com Asprey Get 15% off your first order and your teeth are gonna like it. Click the link below. So strangely, people with higher HDL3 or HDL in general, die less from all causes and it's reducing their endotoxins. You guys see why reducing toxins, including from your gut, might be important if you want to live to at least 180. And we're measuring this kind of stuff in unlimited life, which is our high end VIP concierge medical practice now. And I'm just blown away when you see what happens when you get people who clearly have what we call endotoxemia. They have a leaky gut and they have dark circles under their eyes and they have brain fog the way I did half my life. And then you just start increasing liver function. Get the right probiotics in, including Just Thrive. And then sometimes you give them the binders and it's like the lights turn back on. That's what happened to me. Sibo, small intestine bacteria overgrowth. Your small intestine isn't supposed to have that much bacteria in it. And if I take the Just Thrive spore forming, how does that work versus if I take a big pill full of protected bacteria that make it through the gut and then open in the small intestine, do I have to worry about sibo?

[Kieran Krishnan]

No. So in fact, the Just Thrive probiotic can really help with sibo.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay.

[Kieran Krishnan]

In part because of the quorum sensing. Right. So people with SIBO have an unusually high amount of gram negative bacteria in the small bowel.

[Dave Asprey]

In fact, it's not just bacteria. They have the bad bacteria in the small intestine. So it's not all bacteria.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Right. So the amount of bacteria in the small bowel is supposed to be around 10 to the 4 CFUs per gram, which is a very low level of bacteria. Given that it's a really great environment for bacteria normally. But people with SIBO tend to have 10 to the 6, 10 to the 8, so an order of magnitude higher. But they tend to have mostly gram negative. There's a shift in their microbiome. Now, where are a lot of these gram negatives coming from? From these people? A lot of it's from the oral microbiome Right. We have a lot of gram negatives in our mouth. That's why people have always said that the human mouth is a very dirty place because of a lot of these fecal bacteria that we actually find in our mouth. Right. Enterococcus, E. Coli.

[Dave Asprey]

How did that bacteria get in your mouth?

[Kieran Krishnan]

We're breathing it in every day, every moment, every day. Right. So it's in. In the toilet, for example. Right. If you go. If you defecate in the toilet and you flush it, and studies have been done on it, you are aerosolizing all of this fecal bacteria into the house. And you can see it visually.

[Dave Asprey]

One of my favorite Wired magazine article titles was, you're surrounded by a cloud of skin and poop bacteria all the time.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yep, yep. Ew. All the time. And. And the healthier we make that cloud, the better. Right. It actually improves the health of everyone in the household.

[Dave Asprey]

So I'm a walking probiotic is what

[Kieran Krishnan]

you're saying you are. You can be because of your healthy gut. Right. So actually, there was a study on this by. Done by Johns Hopkins, which is super interesting. So what they did is they took individuals who were given a course of antibiotics at a hospital for one reason or the other, prior to starting the antibiotic. They took a bunch of fecal samples to kind of characterize their microbiome, and then they started taking samples during the course of the antibiotics and then upwards of six months, months after. What they found, of course, was that it created a lot of dysbiosis during the course of antibiotics. That same dysbiosis was present six months later. But what was interesting about this, they also then took samples of everyone that lived in the household that wasn't taking the antibiotic. And they found that those individuals also had similar disruptions to their microbiome because of one individual in the household that was taking an antibiotic.

[Dave Asprey]

So we could call this probiotic shedding.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yep, Absolutely it is. Right. And so it becomes a household and community project. Right. If you're somebody that is very conscious about your health and you're trying to do everything you can to be healthy, but you're living with people who just don't care.

[Dave Asprey]

Wow.

[Kieran Krishnan]

They are working against your microbiome and against your health.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay. This is why everyone throwing a party needs to invite at least one biohacker to the party.

[Kieran Krishnan]

You're right.

[Dave Asprey]

We're going to make everyone else healthier just by our presence.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Exactly. It's. It's the seeding of health. Right? The. The biohacker seeding.

[Dave Asprey]

So, and just as a bonus, if you're the biohacker, eat a ton of Brussels sprouts ahead of time, trust me,

[Kieran Krishnan]

then you can make your presence known. People do that. They'll smell you coming. They're like, oh, here comes a biohacker.

[Dave Asprey]

No, he's just a walking probiotic. Oh, man. Are there companies who make gram negative probiotics?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Not that I'm aware of. So there is one E. Coli strain that's considered a probiotic and that's going to be a gram negative bacteria. It's decently studied, but you don't find it in very many probiotics at all.

[Dave Asprey]

And there is a Clostridium probiotic as well, but that's not gram negative.

[Kieran Krishnan]

That's not gram negative. That's a gram positive. And there's lots of groups of Clostridium that are really important to the microbiome and they're all gram positive. And in fact, clostridium are spore formers themselves. Oh, I didn't know that in the gut.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay, so Clostridium difficile is a major killer, but there's a Clostridium butyricum, which makes butyric acid. I learned about that because my grandmother, before she passed at 101, had C. Diff. That's not what killed her. But because of that, I went really deep on the research. I'm like, you know, this is a good one to have. I take it on rare occasions just to make sure I have something in there. But it's not my daily thing. Like the just thrive is okay. I've been recommending that people take more vitamin D3 for 25 years based on at first the work of the Vitamin D Research Council. But, oh, about three or four years after I started looking into the research, I realized, my God, you have to have K2. And that's why vitamin D exists. The right ratios of all the fat solubles, and you guys go to vitamin D dot com, that's the stuff that I make, make very affordable and all that. But there's another way to get K2, because if you have the right microbiome, your microbiome should be making vitamin K2 for you. So you figured out that the just thrive probiotics actually make vitamin K2. How did you figure it out and how much do they make?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, so in fact, one of my first projects in the world of nutrition and wellness was working on an enzyme called nattokinase. Right. Which, which you're probably familiar.

[Dave Asprey]

I haven't Recommended it for years.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, yeah. And so I was actually the first guy back in 1999 to bring Nattokinase to the U.S. that was you? That was me in 1999.

[Dave Asprey]

I was on serrapeptase and nattokinase.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, phenomenal things, right? And they're both made by bacillus subtilis variety Natto. There's a. There's a specific natto strain. So natto's is fermented soybean. And so studying natto and what you learn is that on the opposite side of the cell cycle from where they make the enzyme, these bacteria make K2 and K2,7 specifically. And it was being thrown out as a waste product because K2 is fat soluble and the nattokinase is water soluble. So they're pulling the water soluble out, throwing away the fat soluble component. And so I worked on a project to rescue the fat soluble component and then actually direct the microbes to make more K2 than nattokinase. And then we became one of the largest manufacturers of vitamin D, K27. And those are the same strains that we used in the Just Thrive probiotic.

[Dave Asprey]

I had no idea that connection. So K2 is terribly important for bone density too.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

So if osteoporosis is a thing for you, you should look at just thrive or just a risk for you. I've been on Just Thrive for a long time. I also take large doses of vitamin D. Not too large to be crazy, but large to get my blood levels right. And I, oh, six, seven years ago, an old yoga injury in my foot, and they had to saw through the bone in my foot. And I chose to be awake for it because, well, that's how biohackers are. Like, my leg is numb. What's gonna happen? So you hear the bone saw, it's like. And I'm like, doc, it's getting hot because I can't feel the pain, but I can feel the heat of the bone heating up. And he looks at the nurse and goes, I'm having a hard time getting through his bone here because of the bone density. It was just off the roots. This is Dr. Ali Sadria. There's a whole episode about it. And he afterwards said, dave, I operated on someone's same procedure half your age, just right before you. And their bones cut like butter. And I got to change blades to get through your foot. What is going on? I'm like, well, it might be my vitamin K2 and my vitamin D levels are adequate, but part of that is I Absolutely am certain I was on just thrive at the time because, well, I want a healthy microbiome if I'm going to be doing surgery. And one day after the surgery, he looked at the wound and said, you don't need antibiotics. I did take one dose of them. So I was taking my extra just arrived to make sure that I got through it.

[Kieran Krishnan]

But it's crazy what's possible and you see those effects. Right. Which bone was it in your foot?

[Dave Asprey]

It's like the main one that runs right here. You see the scar right there. So this big toe had started calcifying. So I have a genetic square joint and I'd stubbed it doing a crow pose to kick back and it just would not heal. Stem cells, dry kneeling, everything. It just, yeah, it didn't work.

[Kieran Krishnan]

And what's, what's interesting about it is that it's on your foot. Right. So. So when you look at osteoporosis, vascular damage, all those things, you start to see it in the extremities first. Like one, one example of understanding that you have a healthy circulatory system is for men especially if you have hair on your toes. Yeah, right. And if you have some hair on your toes and they stay relatively, you know, healthy and they're thick. Yeah. So then that's a good sign because the moment the hair starts to fall off your toes and thin excessively, it's an example of poor circulation down there. So between the fat soluble vitamins, the healthy gut, getting enough vitamin K2, not only are you building stronger bones and maintaining stronger bones, but you're doing it in the most extreme parts of the body, which is really an example of really optimal circulation. So that's great that it was a lower foot example as well.

[Dave Asprey]

That's. I hadn't even thought about that. So are just thrive probiotics going to help with my erections?

[Kieran Krishnan]

You know what, that's a great question. So we don't have a study on it.

[Dave Asprey]

Right. For Brian Johnson,

[Kieran Krishnan]

there's one connection here that is, is super important which actually then leads to erections as well. Everything leads to erections in one way or the other. Right.

[Dave Asprey]

Life kind of doesn't want to continue existing.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Exactly. Like everything we do is around that. And so there's something called a gelding effect. G E L D I N G

[Dave Asprey]

Like what we do to horses. Yeah. Or ideally politicians. Yeah.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Right. And so the gelding effect is a very well documented pathology that shows that in an increase in gut associated endotoxins actually hinders testosterone Production.

[Dave Asprey]

Wow. So gelding means to cut the balls off of. Right, Right. So your bad gut bacteria literally is called. It has a gelding effect.

[Kieran Krishnan]

It has a gelding effect.

[Dave Asprey]

It means it's stopping testosterone from working and it's gelding you.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yep, exactly. Yes.

[Dave Asprey]

Still want to eat the ultra processed foods?

[Kieran Krishnan]

No, it is. And this is part of the reason why sperm counts are dropping so significantly.

[Dave Asprey]

How did I not know about this?

[Kieran Krishnan]

This is, is, it's, it's one of the best. Like I've written about this in a textbook on endotoxemia. So here's basically what happens when LPS enters into circulation, right. You get lbp, we mentioned before, that binds it, that LBP turns on TNF alpha and all of these pro inflammatory cytokines. Your, your HPA axis reads that inflammation because that inflammation makes its way into the brain as well. Lps. One of the things about it is it's so good at making its way up the vagus nerve, nerve or circulation and entering the brain. Right, so it gets into the brain and it triggers inflammation. Once your pituitary gland signals that there is inflammation, it doesn't tell the gonads to make testosterone. Instead it facilitates a cortisol pathway. Right. So you actually shut down testosterone production.

[Dave Asprey]

So bad gut bacteria turn off testosterone and turn on cortisol.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yep.

[Dave Asprey]

Do we know what species do that?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah. So any sort of gram negative bacteria that leads to endotoxins in the circulation.

[Dave Asprey]

So if you were to say, I don't know, eat a big bowl of oatmeal, which is full of glyphosate and causes leaky gut even if it doesn't have gluten in it.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

It might just cut your balls off.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah. Every, especially we do that every day.

[Dave Asprey]

You know, vegans get so angry and weak just asking for a friend.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Well, it's also, there's no pleasure in veganism. So, you know, I was, I was

[Dave Asprey]

a devout out vegan for 18 months. Made me really sick. So guys, if, if that offended you, number one, you shouldn't let me trigger you. That means you're a loaded gun. And if you're a vegan, you're probably scared of those. But regardless, really, I'm serious. Especially if you're under 30, you can take a lot of hits. 130. Don't take the vegan diet hit. You will pay for it later. Okay.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

PSA ended.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah. Important messages. Right?

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Kieran Krishnan]

But, but just think about that impact, right? Think about if you're not watching endotoxemia, which is the movement of LPS from your gut into your circulation. You are absolutely stomping on your body's ability to produce testosterone adequately, which then of course affects erections, fertility, sperm count, everything.

[Dave Asprey]

So maybe the reason that sperm counts are dropping isn't just microplastics and endocrine disruptors. It's gram negative gut bacteria cutting off our balls.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yep.

[Dave Asprey]

Holy crap. Okay.

[Kieran Krishnan]

And a probiotic can stop it, which is amazing.

[Dave Asprey]

Right. So you make just thrive probiotics. Are those the strains that are going to turn off the gelding effect?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because it. It lowers LPS in circulation by 75% in just 30 days.

[Dave Asprey]

That is life changing.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

To have that much of a reduction as a guy who feels lps. I wake up in the morning and I can think or not think and I can move or not move without pain. It's just how it is. And it's been that way my entire life. Which meant it was always can't think, always pain, always brain fog and just tissue destruction. And so I managed it carefully and I feel freaking amazing. But I also have been on your stuff for a long time.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're doing all the right things.

[Dave Asprey]

Many other things I do.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah. Well, and one of the things that people always ask me is like, how long do you have to take it for? Right. And my right. Recommendation to them is always do it at least 90 days.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Right. Because what we explained with the microbiome and the networking and the cross feeding, those are complex things to re establish when your gut has been dismantled.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Kieran Krishnan]

The spores are very powerful and they will do that for you, but it's going to take a little bit of time. So I always Recommend People commit 90 days to starting to rebuild your gut. Right. And. And that's when you'll really see the big changes occurring.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay. I've often said that for every year you're really sick, it's going to take two or three months of focused work to recover from that. And people can be like, I've been sick for 10 years. Okay. It might take you two years to get all the way back. But 90 days, that's where you start, is you fix the gut first. And dropping your circulating toxins by 75% would be a big deal. But there's something else that I had going on. I was £300, I was quite fat. And I think if you're actually fat, you're allowed to say I was fat instead of having to use like a politically correct word.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Right.

[Dave Asprey]

Like I was obesity. So I was a fat ass. I did everything I could think of. I exercised 90 minutes a day. I went on a low fat, low calorie diet, all this stuff. Never lost a pound, never lost an inch off my waist. But I did get stronger. I didn't address my gut bacteria back then. I didn't know what to do about that. There's a species called Akkermansia we've talked about on the show before. If I'd have had enough Akkermansia, maybe, would my exercise have worked?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, absolutely. So, number one, your mitochondria work better, right? Blood sugar control is better. With Akkermansia, you also upregulate fat burn even better. And then, for example, we did a study where we showed in individuals with undetectable Akkermansia, we could, we could see the presence of a thousand fold increase in Akkermansia in three to four weeks by taking the spore probiotic, right? So the sport probiotic has this ability to increase the network effect of all of these microbes. And then at the same time, you're starting to see mitochondrial effects and all that. And as you're seeing those changes, what you're also getting is less endotoxins. Because one of the things that endotoxins do with fat cells and this is where when, when you're overweight, you, you get that really bloated feeling all the time, right? That puffiness in you. Because studies have shown that when LPS engages with in with fat around the midsection, it swells the volume of the fat cells threefold.

[Dave Asprey]

Holy crap. So maybe I was so fat because I just had swollen fat cells. Are you swollen with, with fat inside the cell or swollen with just water and other.

[Kieran Krishnan]

So, so what, what they'll do is they'll, they'll actually produce more fatty acids that they hold. And then water also gets into the fat cells. And now you've got three times the size of three times the volume of your fat cells.

[Dave Asprey]

Here's how you can tell this is real. You ever wake up with muffin top that you didn't have the night before? You can't put fat on that quickly. That's inflammation of the fat cells, right?

[Kieran Krishnan]

It is, yeah, yeah, yeah. And everyone feels it, right? And then you say you fast for a little bit and then you have a couple of good bouts, movements and you feel that real nice tight skinniness, right, that people feel. That's again, not just, that's not fat loss in that short amount of time. You're just shrinking the fat cells and losing the water and the extra fatty acids. And you're releasing free fatty acids as a result of that. And so those dynamic changes happen relatively quickly and a lot of it's governed by the microbiome.

[Dave Asprey]

Wow, that just blows me away. A lot of conversations around Akkermansia and GLP1 months. So is it true that Akkermansia makes GLP1 for a lot more affordably than buying a pharmaceutical for 1200amonth?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, yeah. So many of the keystone species do that. And then butyrate, of course, has GLP1 activity as well.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay. And so just thrive makes butyrate and you have Akkermansia in it.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yep.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah. Well, so there's no Akkermansia in the probiotic, but it increases Akkermansia endogenously. Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

So you take just thrive in the presence of the spore formers, cause Akkermansia to grow.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yep, exactly. In fact, we published an obesity study. Yeah. It was done with University of North Texas. Basically what we did is we took two groups of people. So it was randomized, controlled trial. These are people who are clinically overweight, BMI over 30 plus. Right. And so, and, and we had no diet, no. No exercise at all. And they were given just the just thrive probiotics with a singular prebiotic with an oligosaccharide. And then the, the placebo group was given a placebo. And what we were looking at was visceral fat, blood sugar control and other metabolic parameters. In a 90 day period with no change in diet, no exercise adding, we saw a 35% reduction in visceral fat mass and a 45% improvement in insulin response in these individuals. Right. And that is with no lifestyle changes

[Dave Asprey]

and improving insulin response, all cause mortality goes down, erectile function goes up. And women, they don't really have erectile dysfunction, but their libido goes up when that changes.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Fertility is impactful for women.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah, yeah. And I'm talking about libido because. Well, yeah, it's recreationally fun, but what do you think chi is? It's zest for life. And libido is like the Western language for qi. So I'm not saying your desire to go have sex. Sex, it's desire to thrive. And sex is part of that.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, absolutely. That's the, that's the innate energy that we have. Right. That. That propagates the species. Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

I think it also drives scientific research, entrepreneurship, treating our partners. Well. Yeah, just, just kindness, actually. If, if you're depleted and you're empty of life force energy, you're probably going to be by a lane. You know, if you laugh when I make fun of a bully who's trashed every single doctor that I love, it just makes you a good person.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Why? I appreciate being a good person. I like it. I passed a test.

[Dave Asprey]

By the way, guys, if you like my true dark glasses, you can use code Biolane to get a discount on them.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Sorry, is that a real code? Absolutely. Oh, wow. Awesome.

[Dave Asprey]

I love Internet bullies and trolls, especially ones with PhDs and big egos. They're my favorite toys. Oh my God, I love them. I used to get all triggered by that stuff, but now it's just a game and it's fun and. And, well, say my name, Lane. Say my name. You know, taught me that. It's Joe Rogan.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Oh, really?

[Dave Asprey]

When he tried to cancel me. Yeah. All right, back to gut bacteria. If you could be any kind of gut bacteria, what would it be?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Oh, I would love to be the spore. I mean, just think about the superhero spore. Right? They get in there and they kick the out of stuff and. And very few things harm them. And if everything goes bad, I can just go dormant for 50 million years and then show up again when things are better.

[Dave Asprey]

Kieran, you're one of the few humans I could ask that question to who could answer it elegantly and who's probably

[Kieran Krishnan]

thought about it, which is crazy. Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

How could you answer that? Like, what kind of superpower do you want?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Spore forming. Yeah. I mean, like you said earlier in the show, can you imagine just encapsulating yourself in a protein calcified shell that is impervious and you can just remain dormant for X number of years until things are better.

[Dave Asprey]

I'm going to design my. My life very far in the future when we have full control of our biology. Yeah, I'm going to have tardigrade genes.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yes.

[Dave Asprey]

Right. Those little water bears that are impervious to everything. And I'm going to have spore forming calcium shell Y so I'm like, I'm just going to chill and then basically, unless a supernova happens, I'll just chill.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Totally.

[Dave Asprey]

I can just wake up and do stuff.

[Kieran Krishnan]

You can be in outer space. So we actually talked about this on one of the first times we were I was on your show. There's a study that shows that the spore based bacteria, the bacillus that that we're talking about, can survive in outer space for seven years.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, yeah. In fact, I remember the title though. Something like Spore forming a bacteria from outer space.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Exactly.

[Dave Asprey]

It, it's kind of cool because I do add, just thrive on occasion to some of the stuff that I bake.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yes.

[Dave Asprey]

Right, Dave, you bake? Yes. You can do rice based baking. That's amazing. I should do a cookbook. One day. I did a cookbook, but it's been a long time. You guys want another cookbook? Drop it in the comments. And I'm thinking about it, thinking about it hard. And yeah, if so we'll have a spore forming bacteria section in it.

[Kieran Krishnan]

So you totally.

[Dave Asprey]

Why ferment your foods? You just bake it with spore formers and it delivers, does the same thing, right?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah. And they'll survive baking 450 degrees for eight, ten minutes. They're okay.

[Dave Asprey]

That's a pretty high temperature for baking too.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Amazing. This is so much fun. In Ayurveda or traditional Chinese medicine, you hear people talking about bitters. What are the little bitters? What do those have to do with probiotics?

[Kieran Krishnan]

Yeah, you know, so they, they pair really well with probiotics. Right. So we have something called bitter taste receptors. Starting in our mouth, all the way through our digestive tract. Even on our heart, we have bitter taste receptors. So basically it's an evolutionary adaptation to consuming certain types of foods from the environment, some of which we could be poisonous. Right. Which is one of the reasons why we have bitter taste receptors in our mouth. When it's really astringent, it invokes us to spit it out. Right. So that's one of the ways our ancestors figured out what is probably okay to eat and what's not. In the rest of the gut, we have bitter taste receptors who are acceptable bitters. And as it turns out, about half of all your digestive signals are turned on by bitter compounds binding the bitter taste receptors. Right. So the release of things like bile, the release of hydrochloric acid, the release of pepsin, and all of these digestive juices, the activation of the peristaltic movement to move food through the gastric system and through the intestines, all of those require bitter taste receptor binding.

[Dave Asprey]

So bitter turns on moving food through the gut.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Exactly. And digestive secretions as well. About half of all the signals are turned on by bitters. And then when you think about what's happened with modern agriculture, we've basically eliminated bitters and bitter foods from our diet. Right. Like nobody eats bitters.

[Dave Asprey]

Do you have to taste them or can you just take a pill?

[Kieran Krishnan]

You can take a pill that's the beauty of it. So the tasting part of it, which is where people see the, the droppers or bitters, that activates something called the cephalic response, right? Which gets your mouth watering, gets some of the initial hydrochloric acid going on. But you don't need bitters for that because you can get the cephalic response just by smelling and seeing food.

[Dave Asprey]

Just rib eye will do that.

[Kieran Krishnan]

Totally. Absolutely. And you smell like bacon cooking, right? That salivating, that's called a cephalic response. Now the rest of the bitter activation you want to happen in the gut. So you want to get the bitters into the gut, that you want to bind all the bitter receptors and turn on all the digestive switches. And just think about if we're eating food and we're not turning on half of our digestive signals, we're not breaking down the food, which is part of the reasons we have so much indigestion and intolerance of foods. We're not turning on the machinery to process the food. Right. So bitters are so critical and they pair so well with probiotics that can go in there and modulate the microbiome and help the microbiome digest the food as well.

[Dave Asprey]

That's incredible. It's incredible too because I did this on purpose. Guys. If you go to just thrive.comasprey you can get 90 day supply of bitters for free. That's worth $90 when you sign up for a subscription for 90 days. And I'm really serious, guys. I've been using just Thrive for a long time because Kiran is, is a top guy in the world. I trust what he has to say and he's just very intelligent. I know a lot about the space. He knows more than I do. So this is what I do. And I think that if you decide to do this, even though you may not have mind biology, you are going to notice a difference. You heard do it for 90 days. Funny enough, that's what the offer is. JustThrive.com Asprey and 75% reduction in studies of these endotoxins that are behind a lot of the weird, unexplained things that may be happening in your biology. And the bitters are only going to make it work better. So give this a try and you're going to very likely feel a difference and you may make it part of your permanent stack, you may stop doing it and then 90 days later wish that you didn't stop. But that's up to you. See you next time on the Human Upgrade Podcast

[Kieran Krishnan]

A Human Upgrade, formerly Bulletproof Radio, was created and is hosted by Dave Asprey. The information contained in this podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended for the purposes of diagnosing, treating, curing, or preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced on the podcast, consult with your healthcare provider carefully read all labels and heed all directions and cautions that accompany the products. Information found or received through the podcast should not be used in place of a consultation or advice from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you have a medical problem or should you have any healthcare questions, please promptly call or see your healthcare provider. This podcast, including Dave Asprey and the producers, disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained herein. Opinions of guests are their own and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. This podcast may contain paid endorsement advertisements for products or services. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to herein. This podcast is owned by Bulletproof Media.