This Brain Trick Feels Like Cheating (Do THIS) : 1402

Summary

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The Human Upgrade: Biohacking for Longevity & Performance

Episode 1402: This Brain Trick Feels Like Cheating (Do THIS)
Date: January 22, 2026
Host: Dave Asprey
Guest: Dr. David Perlmutter

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Episode Overview

This thought-provoking episode explores the cutting edge of brain health, neuroimmunity, and whole-body biohacking with renowned neurologist Dr. David Perlmutter. Filmed live in Las Vegas, Dave Asprey and Dr. Perlmutter dive deep into the science of microglia—the brain’s “immune cells”—their central role in neurodegenerative diseases, how metabolism governs their behavior, and actionable protocols to shift your brain’s defenders from “evil twin” to “loving and supportive.”
The discussion is rich with insights on mitochondrial health, metabolic therapies, gene therapy, psychedelics, biofield science, and the latest on GLP-1 agonist drugs (like Ozempic) for extending healthspan and influencing behavior.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Central Role of Microglia & Brain Immunity

• Microglia as the Overlords of Neuronal Health

  • Microglia, the brain's immune cells, can be friend (M2/“supportive”) or foe (M1/“evil twin”), profoundly affecting brain function.
  • Shifts from M2 to M1 are driven by metabolic dysfunction—often mitochondrial in origin.
  • [09:25] Dr. Perlmutter: “The brain's immune cells, the microglial cells, can be friend or foe ... and when they are foe, it's a consequence of their metabolism having gone awry, their mitochondrial functioning.”

• Neurodegenerative Disease as Immune-Metabolic Dysfunction

  • Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, and autism aren’t single-cause diseases—they are complex “recipes” involving immune dysregulation and metabolic breakdown.
  • [08:43] Dr. Perlmutter: “It’s because our brain’s immune cells have shifted to become the evil twin. And they have shifted because their mitochondria have become dysfunctional.”

• Metabolic Modulation over Symptom Suppression

  • Treating downstream symptoms (e.g., amyloid plaques in Alzheimer’s) is “treating the smoke, not the fire.”
  • The real target should be restoring healthy microglial metabolism and mitochondrial resilience.

2. Cutting-Edge Therapeutics: GLP-1 Agonists, PPAR-gamma, and Beyond

• GLP-1 Agonist Drugs & Parkinson’s “Arrest”

  • Recent trials showed GLP-1 agonists can halt Parkinson's disease progression by modifying microglial metabolism.
  • [11:29] Dr. Perlmutter: “Those individuals who were given the GLP-1 agonist drug ... Parkinson’s was totally arrested. It’s breathtaking.”

• Beyond Lifestyle—The “Big Box” of Integrative Medicine

  • Dr. Perlmutter advocates an expanded, integrative approach: combine lifestyle, pharmaceuticals, peptides, and even gene therapy, emphasizing “do no harm.”
  • [20:17] Dr. Perlmutter: “My goal is to make the box bigger and be more inclusive ... Integrate whatever works provided, above all, do no harm.”

• Microdosing Pharmaceuticals for Longevity?

  • Both agree that selective, microdosed pharmaceuticals (e.g., metformin, Actos) may help extend healthspan.
  • [21:02] Dave Asprey: “Oh, I’m all over pharmaceutical microdosing.”
  • [55:06] Dave Asprey: “Is there a role for microdosing these for healthy people?”

3. Lifestyle & Metabolic Levers for Neuroimmunity

• The “Big Levers” for Brain Health

  • Diet, sleep, exercise, social/nature connection, blood sugar/insulin control, and targeted nutrients (e.g., coQ10, urolithin A, rosmarinic acid, lithium orotate, nicotine) are primary tools.
  • [35:19] Dr. Perlmutter: “But the big levers are what you mentioned. But there are some other more exciting things ... hyperbaric oxygen, ketogenic diet, urolithin A, coenzyme Q10...”

• Biohacks for Microglial Modulation

  • Infrared/photobiomodulation, hyperbaric oxygen, 40 Hz light/sound (gamma oscillation), peptide therapies, and even gene therapy can “nudge” microglia back to their supportive role.
  • [36:02] Dr. Perlmutter: "There are ways of activating TREM2 ... the TRMM2 receptor ... People who have genetic downregulation ... have a dramatically increased risk of Alzheimer's."

4. Wider Societal and Philosophical Implications

• Diet, Inflammation & Global Behavior

  • Industrialized diets cause chronic inflammation, disconnecting populations from empathy and prefrontal cortex-driven behavior.
  • [52:33] Dr. Perlmutter: “Globally, we are keeping people away from their prefrontal cortex and locking them into ‘I am better than you.’ ... It’s happening globally as a consequence of the foods that people are eating causing more inflammation in the world.”

• GLP-1s and the Future of Behavior

  • Widespread use of GLP-1 agonists (Ozempic-like drugs) could drastically reduce gambling, shopping addictions, alcohol deaths—potentially impacting global economies.
  • [54:35] Dr. Perlmutter: “...ultimately be used in the next five years by 25% of the global population. The economic impact ... will have a multi-trillion dollar effect on global economy.”

• Oneness, Biofields, and Quantum Interconnectedness

  • The conversation explores consciousness, the human biofield, plant intelligence, quantum biology, and the science-spirituality interface.
  • [58:27] Dr. Perlmutter: “My mitochondria are talking to your mitochondria ... It’s time we recognize that.”
  • [60:28] Dave Asprey: “Everything has some level of consciousness ... you’re one with everything.”

• Kindness as the Ultimate Biohack

  • The episode ends on the importance of love, self-acceptance, and non-judgment—essential for individual and collective healing.
  • [67:10] Dr. Perlmutter: “Love thy neighbor as thyself ... It’s not conditional ... and it’s hard to do.”
  • [68:27] Dave Asprey: “Judgment is an egoic manifestation. It’s your mitochondria trying to be safe.”

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Treating the Root, Not the Symptom

  • Dr. Perlmutter [09:39]: “By the time we get to targeting beta amyloid with these drugs, we’ve missed a lot of opportunities. Let's go upstream and ask, why did the amyloid accumulate?”

• On Bold, Integrated Medicine

  • Dr. Perlmutter [20:17]: “No, the goal is to make the box bigger ... It's the difference between alternative medicine and integrative medicine.”

• On Consciousness & Mitochondria

  • Dave Asprey [42:31]: “I think the ego is actually a manifestation of mitochondria...”

• On Microdosing Longevity Drugs

  • Dave Asprey [21:02]: “Oh, I'm all over pharmaceutical microdosing.”
  • Dr. Perlmutter [55:06]: “It's a great question. I'd love to see people study it.”

• On the Need for Kindness

  • Dr. Perlmutter [67:10]: “Love thy neighbor as thyself. ... And then part two is as thyself. And that might even be harder.”

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Notable Timestamps and Segments

• 03:18 – Introducing Dr. David Perlmutter (bio, accolades, heart)
• 04:18–08:43 – Autism, Alzheimer’s, spectrum disorders as “recipes,” not single-cause diseases; dangers of reductionism in medicine.
• 09:25–11:45 – Microglial "friend or foe," mitochondria as root of immune dysfunction in brain, GLP-1 Parkinson's clinical trial result.
• 13:16–13:50 – The reversibility of microglial state (M1/M2); metabolic nudges.
• 16:26–19:23 – Glial cells as “overlords,” microglia in brain and immune modulation; PPAR gamma and drug-induced polarization.
• 21:01–25:13 – Open discussion on gene therapy, mold, glyphosate, and environmental toxicity’s impact on brain health.
• 28:12–30:59 – Personal stories: raising pigs, the psychology of food and ancestral eating.
• 32:59–41:05 – Parkinson’s origin from synthetic heroin, how immune activation persists; mitochondrial sharing between cells.
• 42:31–46:21 – The ego, mood, and mitochondrial function; feedback loops of inflammation, mood, and behavior.
• 52:33–54:50 – The "global amygdala takeover" via processed foods; GLP-1s reducing addictive behavior.
• 58:24–63:19 – Quantum entanglement, collective consciousness, the informational field, Darwin, sunflowers, and the definition of life.
• 67:10–69:34 – The primacy of kindness, loving oneself and others, the futility of external validation.
• 69:47–70:40 – Longevity, healthspan, happiness, and love as ultimate goals.
• 74:10–75:50 – Heart-brain connection, biofield, entropy, spirit energy, universal goodness.

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Tone and Style

The conversation is both deeply scientific and openly philosophical, blending biochemistry, clinical anecdotes, cutting-edge research, and sweeping existential thoughts—punctuated by both speakers’ dry humor and warmth.

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Useful for Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

• Understand the current scientific view that chronic disease, brain health, and behavior are fundamentally metabolic and immune issues.
• Get next-level insights on therapies that move the needle: drugs (GLP-1 agonists, metformin, peptides), red and infrared light, lifestyle, and even consciousness practices.
• Hear why empathy, kindness, and non-judgment—as practiced and articulated by highly credentialed experts—are not just spiritual ideas, but crucial for personal and societal healing.
• Gain actionable recommendations (diet, sleep, fasting, photobiomodulation, select supplements/pharma, mind-body modalities) to protect and repair your brain’s “defenders.”
• Be inspired to integrate rigorous science with compassion, open-mindedness, and a holistic worldview in your own health journey.

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Final Takeaway

“Let’s take those neurons down a couple notches and elevate the microglia as equally valuable. The day of the microglia.”
— Dr. David Perlmutter [76:06]

“All of this—the idea of biohacking itself—is a Trojan horse to get people to pay attention to longevity and consciousness.”
— Dave Asprey [69:47]

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For more brain hacks, practical protocols, and conversations that weave together hard science and human kindness, tune in weekly to The Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.

Transcript

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Globally, we are keeping people away from their prefrontal cortex. Our brain's immune cells have shifted to become the evil twin. And they have shifted because their mitochondria have become dysfunctional, neurodegenerative conditions. All of them are related to dysfunction of the brain's immune system. That's where the research is taking us to look at these how in the heck can we keep them loving and supportive of our brain?

[Dave Asprey]

There was a study of infrared light on mice brains that said it was doing something special.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Using hurts light, hurts sound to create a healing environment shifts our brain defenders back to being supportive.

[Dave Asprey]

You're listening to the Human Upgrade with Dave Asprey.

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[Dave Asprey]

This is a special edition of the Human Upgrade and we're filming it live in Las Vegas. And my guest today is none other than Dr. David Perlmutter. Six times New York Times best selling physician, neurologist, dear friend, and a guy who's really inspired some of my work over the years with publishing his books. So this is one of the kindest and most knowledgeable guys that you will see in this field with very deep knowledge and just a huge heart. So welcome back on the show, my friend.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Thank you. I like the kindness part because that's really, I think, the goal these days, be as kind as you possibly can. Be the sharpest knife in the drawer. You don't have to, you know, be able to quote the literature. I think number one on the list is just be kind to others. I'm glad you open with that.

[Dave Asprey]

I have seen that over and over and over with you, just the way you treat everybody. So thanks for bringing that to the world.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Love thy neighbor as thyself.

[Dave Asprey]

There you go. You've been working on brains for a very long time. And we can talk about Alzheimer's, we can talk about autism, we can talk about inflammatory cells in the brain. And I want to learn it all. So let's start with autism because I just did an episode in my most recent book. I said, well, yeah, I've reversed my autism. I don't meet the clinical definitions of that, but I clearly had it runs in the family. I've got the genetics for it. And it's been an enormous amount of work. So I'm like, here's what I did. And some people get really pissed off when I say I did that. I don't know why, but so much has happened in the world of autism. Things about folinic acid and other things. What's your take on autism today?

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

I'm going to have a tough time answering because I don't know what it is because it is not an it. You know, as, you know, it's clustering.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Oh, yeah. I mean, people obviously use the term autistic spectrum disorder and there are many manifestations and There are multiple factors that lead to each of those or groups of those manifestations, whether it's the language dysfunction, the socialization dysfunction, the tactile issues. And these are all represented by dysfunction in various circuitries of the brain which are affected by a multitude of factors including baseline genetics, epidemiology, epigenetics, that's for sure, toxicity, changes in the microbiome, and importantly, as we're learning, we talked offline about this before we went live, the changes in the balance from the gut of the short chain fatty acids that our gut microbes create. So we know that higher levels of propionic or propionate as one of the short chain fatty acids seems to be a little bit threatening for a normal brain function. And I don't mean that the brain function in the autistic individual is abnormal, so let me back out of that one if I can. But it looks as if higher levels of butyrate in ratio to propionate seem to be what we would expect in individuals who have better socialization, better language skills and less involvement in the, in, you know, negativity towards tactile simulation, things like that. So there are a lot of factors and it's interesting you bring up genetics. So genetics is a factor.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

But I think the take home message, and I think what I'd like to leave your, your viewers with is that it's really not appropriate to pigeonhole autism as being related to exposure to anything. One thing in particular.

[Dave Asprey]

Thank you for saying that. I, I always like it. If Big Pharma was to test for bread, they would bake the yeast, they would bake the salt, they'd bake the water, bake the flour and say there is no bread. And autism's a recipe with lots of ingredients. And I don't think you can say what ingredient causes it.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

As is Alzheimer's. Exactly. As is Parkinson's. Yeah. And you know, the problem is when you adopt the notion that there is a single cause for a problem, then you are quickly led to a single solution for that problem. Let me give you an another example. The idea that beta amyloid, this accumulation of protein in the brain is the cause of Alzheimer's is categorically wrong, number one. But why it became it gained so much traction is it led to therapies that are these monoclonal antibodies that have been designed and FDA approved, I might add, to treat Alzheimer's, but actually not, they aren't approved for treating Alzheimer's. The approval process was they moved the goalposts and made the Goal removal of beta amyloid from the brain. Not cognitive improvement, certainly, and not slowing down of cognitive decline. They said it doesn't do that, which would be the goal for Alzheimer's disease. And that's why initially these monoclonal antibodies failed FDA approval. So they came back and said, okay, the surrogate then will be ridding the brain or lowering the amyloid load. And that's how these drugs were approved, because they don't have much of an effect on slowing the cognitive decline, much less arresting cognitive decline. So when we go upstream of what is leading to the accumulation of that beta amyloid, then the story gets much more interesting and it takes us to the immune function of the brain, whose job it is to rid the brain of beta amyloid or to at least reduce its production.

[Dave Asprey]

Yes.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

So when we recognize. I've had some of your coffee. So you can tell. Your viewers can clearly tell you're waking up. You bet. And it's already, what, four in the afternoon? You recognize that the immune system playing such an incredible role then in downstream issues like accumulation beta amyloid in the case of Alzheimer's, accumulation of alpha synuclein and other misfolded protein in the case of Parkinson's, Then we say to ourselves, well, let's look at the. What is it that's making that immune system less salubrious, less paving the way for health and paving the way for damaging effects? We recognize that the brain's immune cells, the microglial cells, can be friend or foe.

[Dave Asprey]

Yes.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And that when they are foe, when they're working against us, it is a consequence of their metabolism having gone awry, their mitochondrial functioning. We've heard a lot of ground, short period of time.

[Dave Asprey]

This is great.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Right now, we're at mitochondrial function in our brain's immune cells leading to the accumulation of beta amyloid. So by the time we get to targeting beta amyloid with these drugs, we've covered a lot of ground, missed a lot of opportunities. Let's go upstream and ask ourselves, why did the amyloid accumulate in the first place? It's because our brain's immune cells have shifted to become the evil twin. And they have shifted because their mitochondria have become dysfunctional. So here's an idea. Let's target our brain's immune cells with something that could enhance their metabolism. Well, what's the drug du jour that enhances metabolism? GLP1 agonist drugs.

[Dave Asprey]

Imagine that.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Can you imagine that? Been very popular. And here we are in Las Vegas. We gotta take our conversation to what is the effect of GLP1 drugs on gambling. Because we're seeing it before our very eyes. Oh, absolutely.

[Dave Asprey]

Does it produce gambling?

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

We will talk about it. You wonder why when you walk through the casino down there, there's nobody playing these machines anymore. Well, we'll get there in a moment. It's going to have a $1 trillion effect on the economy of establishments like this. I promise we'll get there. But nonetheless, again, the coffee talking. So let's go to April of 2024, published in the New England Journal of Medicine, an interventional trial looking at 250 Parkinson patients with Parkinson's versus control, giving them a GLP1 agonist drug 18 month period of time. What did they find? Those individuals who were given the GLP1 agonist drug, powerfully modifying their brain's microglial cell metabolism, Parkinson's was totally arrested.

[Dave Asprey]

This is amazing.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

It's breathtaking because the part of the.

[Dave Asprey]

Brain that gets affected by Parkinson's is some of the most mitochondrially demanding parts of the brain. So it would make sense if you're having a brownout in your mitochondria, Parkinson's could be an obvious first step for that.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Here's the clarification that I'm not sitting here talking today saying, then, therefore, everyone, Parkinson's should be on a GLP agonist drug. I bring this up as an example of what happens when you target metabolism.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And as you and I well know, this is a very aggressive way of targeting metabolism. And you know, the popularity of these drugs is a big experiment. But I'm saying that we should be paying attention to metabolism and not just treating the symptoms of Parkinson's disease. The tremor and the rigidity, which we can treat pretty darn effectively. But that's treating the smoke and ignoring the fire. That is, the disease continues to progress underneath our symptom approach. We've got to attack the underlying fire like we must do with Alzheimer's and we must do with Parkinson's and all the neurodegenerative conditions. And that is to aggressively target human body metabolism because the metabolism of our brain's immune cells mirrors our systemic metabolism.

[Dave Asprey]

So beautifully said. I wrote my big brain book, and this was a while ago. It was called Headstrong. And I said there's really two things when you boil it down to mitochondrial function and bdnf, which is brain derived nootropic factors. So the ability to make new neurons, new neural connections and just have enough power. Right. And that seems to make everything better in the body. And the Brain Totally.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And as we talk about these two categories, they're actually an infinite number. As the m2good supportive microglia morph to be the evil twin. It doesn't happen.

[Dave Asprey]

M2 are the good ones. What are the bad ones?

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

M1.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay, got it.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And so it's not as if they go from M2 to M1 overnight. I mean, they transition and they can transition back. That's the take home message that you can do what? When you reestablish metabolic health, push, lovingly nudge them back to being supportive and taking them away from being the evil twin.

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[Dave Asprey]

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[Dave Asprey]

I kind of look at the glial cells in the brain as the unsung heroes. The neurons get all the rock star status and synaptic firing, but the people who maintain them or the little things that maintain them are the glial cells. And so you can have the French Revolution where the peasants go after the king, or you can have a normal society where there's farmers and things doing their jobs.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah. The microglia are the overlords and the neurons which have been the center of attention are the worker bees.

[Dave Asprey]

Interesting. I see you flip it around.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

But the microglia are moment to moment influencing neuronal function.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah, they're the herders, basically.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

They're interest. It really takes us to a new understanding of immunity. These are the brain's immune cells. And we pigeonhole the notion of immunity as being the response system for invading microorganisms and damage control. All the things that the immune system does, but its maintenance and its support and its growth and its nurturing. We never ascribe those principles to the immune system in the past. And it's not just in the brain, it's throughout your body. The macrophages can be cells that are involved in degrading the plaque within your coronary arteries, or they can be directly involved in laying down that, becoming what are called foam cells and laying down destructive plaque within your coronary arteries. And they are categorized as being M2 and M1, just like your microglial cells and are just as responsive to your body's metabolism.

[Dave Asprey]

That is so fascinating.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Okay, we're taking this into the weeds and I'm just, I'm loving it.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, me too. Our audience, I think, is following this.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

You bet.

[Dave Asprey]

So I want to have less M1 and more M2 microglia. What drug do I take?

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Drug do you take? There are drugs that will help make that happen, and I'm not that guy. Right, I know, but we know, for example, that PPAR gamma agonist drugs that are used for diabetes, metformin used for diabetes. There is a suggestion perhaps that rapamycin has some effect on microbial, what we're going to call polarization, choosing one side or the other. And clearly the peptides, the GLP1 agonists, are able to do that through multiple mechanisms, including how they target mitochondrial function. Recall that the polarization is a consequence of what's happening to that immune cell's metabolism. When the supportive MT2 cells, microglial cells, shift to being the evil twin, their metabolism shifts from normal microglial function via their metabolism, mitochondrial function, using oxygen to glycolysis. It's a huge metabolic shift, and it's.

[Dave Asprey]

One that's really beneficial. Let's talk a little bit more about these PPAR gamma things you mentioned. Way back in the day when I had really bad toxic mold and no one knew what it was back then, it was the very early days of this. I took a drug called Actos, which is in that class of drugs, for about three days in order to kickstart. I didn't know it would be kickstarting the M1 dam 2. We didn't know it back then, but it had specific effects for mold toxicity. And I got the most incredible clarity in my brain and reduction of whole body inflammation just from a short course of it. And today there are actually about 10 pharmaceuticals that have pretty good evidence for extending at a minimum health span and even lifespan. And Actos is one of those. Right? Not that you would take it every day. So there might be a case for saying maybe once a week you take a half a dose, like a microdosing.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And I'm very happy to hear that you're open to that.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, I'm all over pharmaceutical Microsoft.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

I know that. But I'm happy that here you are very public face, open to the notion that there's more than just our lifestyle issues. And, you know, my work over the years has been really focused on that. But, you know, I. People say, well, you know, Dr. Perlmutter, you're really thinking outside the box. Is that your goal? No, the goal is to make the box bigger and be more inclusive. And it's the difference between alternative medicine, where it's either yay or nay or integrative medicine. We're going to Integrate whatever works provided, above all, do no harm. So I'm very open to these considerations and I'll tell you how far you can take it. I mean, there's research now being done with the idea of gene therapy.

[Dave Asprey]

I've done three of them.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

There you go. What have you done?

[Dave Asprey]

I did two follistatin gene therapies and then I just did a vegf and I'm about to go do Clofo.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

So let's unpack those if you want to. So the follistatin gene therapy is designed to inhibit myostatin, which is considered to be the brake on muscular growth. And the reason we want muscular growth is because your muscles are not only a repository, but an internal pharmacy to produce these myo kinds. Like you mentioned earlier earlier, bdnf, irisin, which we know helps convert white fat into bronze fat or brown fat.

[Commercial Narrator]

Why?

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Because it's richer in mitochondria. Right. And other things. Interleukin 6, which helps activate AMP kinase, which helps us with our metabolism. So, you know, the issue is. Well, is it proven to be safe in humans? I don't think we know that yet. But I think if you're going to look at follistatin and the idea of modification of myostatin, that's been done for a number of years in children with muscular dystrophy. And I, you know, I think the safety profile. And again, disclaimer, I'm not recommending it to your viewers, but something to think about.

[Dave Asprey]

And just as a little side note on that, the reason that you just said, I thought it would be safe. And also it has an off switch. Take tetracycline and it turns it off instantly.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And did you. What vector was used for Plasmid plasma.

[Dave Asprey]

Lasts for two years.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah. So there are other vectors, you know, the plasmids, which are shorter acting. There is lentivirus vector, which is, well, you know, the HIV virus is a lentivirus, but that actually incorporates this into.

[Dave Asprey]

Your genome and that sticks around for a very long time.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah. And then there's adenovirus vectors as well.

[Dave Asprey]

So Liz Paris was on the show right before COVID talking about AAV gene therapy for longevity.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

I met with her an hour ago. Oh, my gosh.

[Dave Asprey]

I saw her last night.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah. And she's gonna come back on the show to talk about her new book. But these are things that are happening right now.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah, I interviewed her last week. So.

[Dave Asprey]

Fun.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah. So your viewers need to get their arms around what the heck is going on here. That people are getting genes, genes inserted into their bodies to continue to amplify the production of proteins, which we think are good for you. So you did activate it. You looked at myostatin. What did you do?

[Dave Asprey]

I did vegf, and I know that I have leaky blood vessels genetically, and so that's actually one of my biggest risk factors, if you just look at genes ignoring the epigenetics. So I said, all right, let's see what I can do to improve the quality of my vasculature. And I know I also have issues because When I was 10, I woke up with a vampire bat feeding on my neck, and I almost certainly got bartonella from that. I have all the stretch marks that come with Bartonella, and I had all the symptoms as a kid. I was really sick from that. But we didn't know even what Bartonella was. And so that also creates damage to your microvasculature because of an infection. So I'm mitigating all of that.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah. And you mentioned mold earlier. So, I mean, we know that there are genetic markers for predisposition to negative responses to mold exposure. HLADR4.

[Dave Asprey]

Got it.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah. That's you. So, but having said that, I think there's a lot of host issues in mold exposure that don't get enough attention.

[Dave Asprey]

What does that mean?

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

That means that, you know, when you think about it, humans have lived in pretty moldy environments for an awful long time, as in tens of thousands of years. Right. And having said that, I think that, overall, our immune systems are a little bit more hypersensitive as it relates to these types of exposures by virtue of our. The environments in which we find ourselves.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Commercial Narrator]

We're less.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Beyond the genetic issue.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah. We're less resilient. And also, at the same time, mold is far more aggressive than it used to be, mostly because your hometown in Florida, we've been spraying antifungals for years that create more toxicity. Glyphosate causes mold to secrete way more of the fusarium toxins. And EMFs are actually used with. And when they're making cultured black mold to make citric acid, they use EMFs to irritate that mold to make more citric acid.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Right.

[Dave Asprey]

So we've created an environment where mold is way more aggressive towards humans and we're living indoors. So I think all of that stacked.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Up, and I think we've become. We become hypersensitive. But interesting, you mentioned, you know, glyphosate being used in Florida, and, you know, one of the biggest things that we grow in Florida. I don't. But is sugar cane.

[Dave Asprey]

Right.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Which is. It's problematic from multiple perspectives. Why do we need so much sugar? But much, much of the sugarcane is no longer responsive to glyphosate. And that has caused the use of paraquat in Florida to skyrocket. So we are spraying. Not we. Certainly I'm not part of that. But 1.5 million acres of sugarcane crops with paraquat. You remember paraquat was, you know, it's an herbicide that was originally. We learned about it because it was sprayed on the marijuana crops when you were young. But then what do they do to the sugarcane crops is they burn them. That's how they. After the harvest, they burn down the residual crops. And interestingly so, the amount of air pollution and PM2.5s that are liberated by that process is devastating to the people who live only to the west of the sugarcane production.

[Dave Asprey]

Is that why there's so many mullets there?

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Too many what?

[Dave Asprey]

Mullets. The haircut.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Oh, mullets. No, there are a lot of mullet fish. But it's interesting because that's where the people who are working the crops.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, no.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

In places like Belglade, Florida, when the wind shifts out of the west and then blow the wind towards the east, they stop the burning. To the east of the crops are places like Palm Beach.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, no.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

So that when the wind blows out of the west, they do not burn the crops. Only when it's out of the east and can go to where these migrants live. We've got to fix that. Yeah. And you know, the other thing, I don't know why we're talking about this, but it's worth talking, talking about is the, you know, the, the it. The amount of pollutants that then go into the groundwater and into the surface water related to growing sugarcane is vast. Ends up in Lake Okeechobee, then drains down. It used to drain down through the river grass, through the Everglades, ended up in Florida Bay where the, the river of grass filter. But now it comes down. They've blocked all that off. Comes down through rivers, actual big rivers, and ends up causing algae blooms in places like where I live. And all along the toxic blue green.

[Dave Asprey]

Algae all the time, right.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Is absolutely toxic. Creates a chemical that is associated now with the product, with risk for Alzheimer's, risk for Lou Gehrig disease. And you know, it's. It's a very worrisome situation. So we wonder. I mean, it's been said, man, Is the only animal who will be foul his own nest. And in. In common parlance, you shouldn't poop where you eat.

[Dave Asprey]

Although having raised organic pigs on my farm, we might not be the only animal. That's true.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

You brought to. That you brought to us one day. It was really good pork though. Yeah, it was. And it was sad because I think the pork that you brought you name. It was. We. We met the pig.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Charlotte's whip.

[Dave Asprey]

It was really funny. I don't know if it was that specific pig, but yeah, I can share this. So one of my kids had been bullied in a. Very young. Very young. And so when we had our first pigs, there was a decision to name the pigs that I didn't support so well, what do you want to name the pig? And I said, do you want to name it after the bully and the child? I won't say which one. Just for an anemone says yes. And so she named the pig after bully and then nurtured the pig the whole time. And then.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Okay, anticipation.

[Dave Asprey]

And when it came time to butcher the pig, she said, make sure. When it came time to butcher the pig, that child said, make sure we label the box because that one's going to taste the best.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

You've told me this story before. It was. I think I ate that. I think you did.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, it was. It sounds kind of dark, but I will tell you it was the most healing and powerful thing because she got to nurture.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

We've sat down because I think we ate. I think it was on the boat. Yeah, yeah. I think I remember this story. Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

And it, it's. It, you know, psychologically speaking, I think it was a brilliant thing.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

But it also sounds that, yeah, it's dark, but I think it could have been healing. Yeah, maybe not. Gosh, that's retribution.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah. It was actually kind of magical. It wasn't. It wasn't as dark as it sounds. It was actually a beautiful thing.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

So we've pivoted from the metabolic state of microglial cells to eating one of your children's pigs.

[Dave Asprey]

Now, does pork cause Alzheimer's disease? Is it bad for you?

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

No, I mean, pork can be. I mean, in your case, here's a pig that's finding, you know, that you. I remember feeding it in your garden. I can't think that that would be a threat to him in any way.

[Dave Asprey]

Those were low toxin fed, they didn't eat any grains and they were intermittent fasted.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Right. And not low toxins with, with trichinosis. I Mean, you know, in Jewish religion, pork, of course, would not be a food to be eaten in. And one wonders, well, what was going on back then that would have caused that edict? And I would suspect it might have been. They noted that people who ate pork in those days possibly had issues with infectious disease or. And who knows what. But, you know, I think it's a wonderful food.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah. And appropriately raised.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Not certainly. Yeah. You know, typically commercially raised pork.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah. We don't want glyphosate marinated pork. That's not a good thing.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah. So we were clear. Glyphosate is a mitochondrial toxin. Just.

[Dave Asprey]

Thank you.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Taking us back to our original conversation. I'm giving a talk here tomorrow, and I'm going to open the talk with. Taking the audience back to 1982. And in the field of neurology, that was a very sentinel moment in that a neurologist, Dr. J. William Langston, was working in his office reading EEGs, when the residents burst in, said, you got to come down to the emergency room and see this patient. Lo and behold, they went to the ER and there was a man basically stuck in a position, frozen in a position, and they didn't know what to do. And there was admitted to the psych ward or admitted to the neurology ward, and ultimately they didn't know. They admitted the guy to the hospital and watched him and several other patients came in. So Dr. Langston did some detective work and determined that all of these individuals had used an intravenous heroin type drug. But somebody had built. Made this heroin in a lab, synthetic heroin, and ultimately determined that it gave these patients instantly Parkinson's disease. Wow. He treated them with the existing drugs for Parkinson's at the time, and they immediately resolved, giving them L. Dopa. Exactly. And what he learned 13 years later was that what happened was what he learned initially was that this contaminant in the injected drug mpp, mptp, rather, becomes mpp, which is the mitochondrial toxin. Immediately upon administration of this drug, these people fried their. Part of their brain you'd mentioned, or the substantia nigra, very metabolically active, developed Parkinson's just like that, responsive to the drug to treat the drug treatment. But what he learned 13 years later was what the drug did was activated their brain's immune cells.

[Dave Asprey]

No kidding.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Their microglia, that then digested away the neuromelanin, the parts, you know, that involved in the production of dopamine and develop Parkinson's. And here's what I'll talk about tomorrow. The real interesting part of the story that he learned 13 years later. And I'll show the brain images of the substantia nigra being depopulated by the still alive microglial cells that continue to be activated and shifted to being the evil twin was that after that initial confrontation with the drug, they remained in the evil twin configuration and continued to digest away the brain for as long as that person lived. Wow. And why that matters is because we see the same thing in Alzheimer's. We see it in chronic traumatic encephalopathy, what football players get long after they're not bashing their heads in football anymore, but they continue to decline. Why? Because once those microglial cells in the brain, the brain's immune cells shift to becoming damaging as opposed to loving and nurturing. They continue to spread that damage, and like Zom, they attack good, healthy M2 microglia and convert them. And that's why it spreads through the brain.

[Dave Asprey]

So metabolic signals from food or light or lasers, infrared light. What else can we do to just tell the microglia, hey, chill.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

A lot of things and, you know, you touched on a few. You know, primarily it's the big levers.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

What are you eating? How well are you sleeping? How well are you connected to nature? How well are you connected to other people? You know, and you want to get more. And how well are sleeping, of course, and what exercise you get. Then we step it to a little bit more granularity, then. What is your fasting blood sugar? What is your fasting? Insulin. How is your, you know, your continuous glucose monitor? What is it telling you deeper than that? What is your. Are your inflammatory markers? What are the levels of the inflammatory cytokines in your blood? What are things like neurofilament, light level, light chain levels. And, you know, we can get even deeper and deeper, but. But the big levers are what you mentioned. But there are some other more exciting things that are being used that you know about. Things like hyperbaric oxygen, ketogenic diet, urolithin A, coenzyme Q10, and even, you know, things that people may not know about, like Rosmarinic acid, dihydromyracetin.

[Dave Asprey]

I take both of them.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah, I know you do. I heard you talk about that before. And then nicotine, Nicotine as well. And lithium as well. Oh, yeah, that's how lithium works. Lithium works directly by targeting the metabolism of the microglial cells.

[Dave Asprey]

I didn't know that. I do three capsules of lithium. Orotate.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Orotate is the one you want to take. Yeah, yeah. And even you know, there are things that are not yet available, but targeting a specific receptor on the microglial cell that keeps them in M2 called the TRMM2 receptor. That's why we want to target. And people who have genetic downregulation or deficiencies of that TREM2 receptor have a dramatically increased risk of Alzheimer's.

[Dave Asprey]

There are some Trem peptides, there are.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Ways of activating TREM2, but if you become obese and diabetic, then your level of trem2 dramatically falls. So we can talk about developing these peptides and developing gene therapy to activate the TREM2 receptor to keep our microglia being friend, not foe. But you can do it with your. With lifestyle as well. But that's where the research is taking us, to look at these microglial cells. How in the heck can we keep them loving and supportive of our brain? Hyperbaric oxygen, 40 Hz light, 40 Hz sound, gamma oscillation in the brain work of Dr. Li Wei, SAO at MIT. That's why she did it, to target the microglial cells.

[Dave Asprey]

Did we ever talk about when I met Li Wei?

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

No, but I've heard you mention this on your podcast.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay. The story about the pajamas.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

No, I didn't know.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay, this is a quick.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

It's going to be interesting though. Li Wei Sigh in pajamas. Go ahead.

[Dave Asprey]

I went to an event right next to the Salk Institute, and it was a pajama party at some event. So it was mostly VCs, and they all dressed like unicorns because of course they would. And I told my assistant, send me some pajamas for pajama party. And she gives me red Hugh Hefner silk pajama things. And I'm like, oh God. And I show up and liyue's there in like a white lab coat.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Cause you know, Li Huay sigh.

[Dave Asprey]

Of course. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

That's what she sleeps in, I think so.

[Dave Asprey]

And so we ended up sitting on a couch and I'm like dressed like Hugh Hefner. And we spent the entire like two hours just talking about this research and all this stuff. It was one of the most fascinating conversations ever.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And you know what prompted her is the story that she relates about. I don't remember how old. I think she was 12. And she was with her grandmother. And she said to her grandmother, time to go home. And her grandmother said, home? Where is home? Oh, wow. That prompted her to do what she did. Amazing. Is it landmark? It's beyond landmark.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

I mean, using 40 Hz light. 40 Hz sound to re establish gamma oscillation in the brain to create a healing environment. That does what? It shifts our brain defenders back to being supportive. Our brains. It's targeting the brain's immune system.

[Dave Asprey]

Wow.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

That is so amazing. Just light could do that. I have another brain light story that I want to get your take on.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Okay.

[Dave Asprey]

Way back before. Yeah, this is before I, I started the biohacking movement. There was a study of infrared light on mice brains that said it was doing something special. And I found this guy on Yahoo Groups who made a couple hundred of these little high powered infrared emitters. They were handmade pill cases. And he told this story, he said, well, my brain isn't working very well. And I saw the mouse research, so I built this thing and I used it down the cerebellar vermis and on a couple other parts of the brain. And I've had profound changes in my brain function. So of course I bought one and for years it was my most important biohacking toy because it would turn my brain back on. I would just expose it to infrared light. And now, you know, infrared affects the viscosity of water and can turn on mitochondrial function to make it better. But it really changed things to the point that I put it one time over the language processing part of the brain. And I did that because I just never hear French words, no matter how much I try. So maybe that'll fix it. And I left it on for maybe more time than I should have. And I spoke in garbled words for the next six hours. It kind of freaked me out because I made my living on, you know, texture cloud computing on stages. But this had a direct metabolic effect on the brain. And today I, I use, you know, infrared and red laser helmets and things. Is that affecting the microglia or the neurons or just all mitochondria?

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Well, it's affecting mitochondria and as such affects the microglia. And here's something to consider, and that is that microglial metabolism mirrors body metabolism. So that when you're using a device like that, even if it's not on your head per se, that if you're able to reduce inflammation, upregulate mitochondrial function, it has an effect throughout the body, in every part of your body, including the brain. And that microglia are able to participate in the sharing of their mitochondria. Yes, via microtubules. And that mitochondria are actually able to migrate throughout the body. This is it's leading edge and it's, you know, there are Things that happen. And at first you say, ah, you know, that's just a little bit too out there for me. And then suddenly, you know, it becomes.

[Dave Asprey]

Self evident and there's social organisms and the ones in neurons are really interesting because they can actually move mitochondria around. Like when a neuron needs extra energy, it's sort of like if there's a big concert, it's sort of like if there's a big concert, they bring a bunch of generators in because they need it that night. The brain's doing that all the time with mitochondrial.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

All the time. It's. And interestingly, there is a, a genetic issue that lrk that virtually causes Parkinson's. If you have almost surely you're going to get Parkinson's. And they've traced the, the defect to lack of formation of those microtubules that share the mitochondria. So bringing this back to neurodegenerative conditions, all of them are related to dysfunction of the brain's immune system.

[Dave Asprey]

Is it mitochondria or immune system or both?

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Both. I mean, so you know, I for years said Alzheimer's is an acquired mitochondriopathy and Parkinson's is an acquired. Because, you know, in medical school we learned about the mitochondropathies. They're Kern Ser syndrome, aggressive external ophthalmoplegia. You have to, to be able to know these.

[Dave Asprey]

Right.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Because in these we see mitochondrial dysfunction. And, but yet we acquire mitochondrial dysfunction as we age, as we're exposed to all the multitude of things that we've already talked about. And so, you know, our mission, should you decide to accept it, is to really target our mitochondria. And as such, then getting back into relationship. We are targeting microglial, the brain's immune system metabolism and are insinuating ourselves into the decision as to whether our brains immune cells will be supportive and loving versus destructive and how unsupportive.

[Dave Asprey]

You just took it up to behavior. And in my most recent book, I think the ego is actually a manifestation of mitochondria, without question. Wow. Because you're aligned with that.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah. And so even as we take it to vis a vis your book, mood issues and things like depression, anxiety are as we now know, are clearly related to mechanisms like inflammation. And inflammation is a downstream manifestation of dysregulation or problems of balance of the immune system. That's what ends up when the immune system is out of balance. Then our immune cells create destructive inflammatory chemicals called cytokines. And these are created by immune cells like the macrophages in the body and the microglial cells in the brain. And why that becomes a feed forward self perpetuating process is because the microglial cells and the macrophages are sensitive to cytokines, inflammatory cells, and it causes them to shift from being supportive M2 to destructive M1. And then when they're M1, they make more cytokines. So this is the feed forward process and it spreads through in the case of the brain, like a cancer. Wow.

[Dave Asprey]

And it's something we can turn off pretty effectively most of the time.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yes. And interestingly, a thought comes to mind, which is, I guess, where most thoughts end up coming to.

[Dave Asprey]

Right.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

A thought comes to my ileocecal valve. No, not quite. But that the shift in the metabolism from oxidative phosphorylation to glycolysis of our immune cells is akin. You know, I made the analogy to cancer cells to the, the Warburg effect.

[Dave Asprey]

It kind of is.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

It is in fact. Yeah, exactly. And one wonders then why the ketogenic diet, which people, some people are using for cancer therapy? You know, forward thinking individuals, in conjunction.

[Dave Asprey]

I might add, with radiation therapy and hyperbarics and all this. All the things like Dom Dugestino was one of the first 10 guests on the show, who was one of the pioneers of that.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And why people are looking at that in cancer therapy. And gee whiz, I mean, look at the work done in using ketogenic diet in Alzheimer's.

[Dave Asprey]

In part, yes.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

So it's interesting because now we're seeing a great convergence of therapies and understanding about what makes a good body go bad and by what we can do to heal as opposed to this huge divergence that we all experience that, oh, you know, true. We treat cancer one way, autism in one way, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, really unique, you know, splitters, not groupers. Now we're groupers. Now we're thinking, oh gosh, what is aligned in all these processes? And it's all about, hey, these things make you sick and these things make you well. I had somebody on my podcast earlier this week talking about infertility and what, you know, how does infertility relate to neurology? Not at all. And she's saying, yes, you know, what we see in the underlying infertility in general is problems with metabolic health. These people, men and women, are not metabolically healthy. They are. They have mitochondrial dysfunction, they have high levels of inflammation, they've been exposed to various things that are toxic to their cells. And I Said, you know, I didn't think there'd be much overlap with my world in brain health. And we both looked each other and smiled and. And we realized, you know, these things make the body go bad. These make the body go good. And so therefore, I mean, you and I right now are at a huge conference and you walk to the exhibit hall and pretty much, although everything's unique, you know, biohack this way, biohack that way. Term that you apparently coined.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And it's. But they're all ultimately filtering down to the same issues, aren't they?

[Dave Asprey]

It's always, how do we get the toxins out? How do we make the mitochondria work better?

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Right. And whether it's by looking at your microbiome and targeting your microbiome to make it work better, because that's. Well, what does that do? I mean, when your microbiome is working better, your gut is healthier and it's less leaky. Why do you want that? Because if it's leaky, then you're up regulating these inflammatory chemicals that we just talked about that target your brain's immune cells, that target, you know, your ability to become pregnant, whatever it may be. And so there's a great convergence now we're all saying the same thing. And, yeah, you know, the road has become a lot less cluttered in terms of what the ultimate goal here is.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah, it's sort of like earlier we talked about, let's treat these tangles in the brain. Those are maybe the smoke coming off the fire that's underneath it, but we're just treating the smoke. And almost all of these conditions, but not all. Just almost all the great majority really do come down to mitochondria.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah, Right. And we get those guys happy.

[Dave Asprey]

And all of this stuff that we think is a unique thing. It's not that unique.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

But they're not guys. They're girls.

[Dave Asprey]

This is true. They only come from women.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

They're girls. And there are. That's why they're so nurturing. Yeah. It's the feminine energy. It's that feminine loving, not aggressive war like Mars energy. It's the loving, nurturing energy. It's what the M2 microglia want to do for us if we just get out of the way.

[Dave Asprey]

It's where life force energy, or qi comes from. It's all mitochondria at the end of the day.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And this is not psilocybin induced. Right now. This is really speaking science.

[Dave Asprey]

Science, mechanistically, it works. And when I put out that Hypothesis about the ego coming from this, it's 10 years of altered states, neurofeedback and some other things. And then it became the best selling philosophy book in the country for a little while and a lot of Buddhist scholars are reading going, this explains a.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Lot of that stuff.

[Dave Asprey]

And wow. So if my mitochondria dysregulated, I'm probably gonna act like a jerk.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah, yeah. And again, where do they come from? I mean, Lynn Margulis, you know the endosymbiont theory of our mitochondria being free living bacteria that took up resonance in another cell and said, hey guys, I'll do this, I'll take care of the energy production and other things, you know. The mitochondria wield the sword of damocles. They determine whether a cell will live or die. They control this process of apoptosis by virtue of their regulation of what are called the caspase enzymes. Times they say it's time for this cell to go or live. So. But they said, I'll take care of these functions. In exchange, I need you to develop these mechanisms whereby I will get the food. I need glucose primarily as my fuel and oxygen, and I will do these nice things for you.

[Dave Asprey]

I think that original theory was wrong.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Which endosymbiont?

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah, I think it did happen, but it's more some intelligent bacteria were floating around and they found another cell and said, let's make it our mobile petri dish, let's take over and let's never let go of control. And that they're actually driving our cells ourselves, driving them out of control.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

That's another perspective. And I'm willing to go there and I'll noodle that one tonight.

[Dave Asprey]

And I mean it's. You could argue either way, but I don't. I think just because of that original theory that like we were the cell and this is our energy. They look like puppet masters when you get really down into it. And like they're living within ourselves, they're moving around, they're doing what they want to do. And like, oh, oh, you didn't do what I wanted. Have some cravings. Right.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And so yeah, that's induced by basically inflammation. When you think about it. What does inflammation do? Inflammation cuts us off from relating to our prefrontal cortex. Yes. And locks us back into amygdala based behavior that I have these cravings but beyond having the cravings is I'm therefore going to satisfy those cravings right now. The rest of everything be damned, my health be damned. Other people Be damned, my future health be damned and the planet be damned. That's what locking into immune based behavior does. As opposed to making decisions from leveraging what the input is from the prefrontal cortex. The top down control the adult in the room saying well you shouldn't really eat that. We know this could spike your glucose. You shouldn't do this because it's bad for your neighbor, you're bad for your neighborhood, spraying on your lawn of glyphosate, whatever it may be. That's a prefrontal influence where you take multiple data points and you come up with a more balanced decision. It is the adult in the room and we want that adult in the room to have top down control over the child in the room, the amygdala and say yeah, I know you want to stay up late, I know you want to eat this or do whatever is not good for you, but we're just going to rein you in. Inflammation, I love that cuts us off. It's called the anterior cingulate pathway. And inflammation severs that pathway and the amygdala takes over, says screw it, I'm doing all whatever I want. And then those crappy lifestyle choices do what? You're eating the wrong food, you're staying up late, not getting restorative sleep, inflammation increase further and you're locked into the amygdala. Now let me take these further if I may. With the global change in food becoming from the standard American diet to then the western diet to the global diet, call it what it is, you know, featuring ultra processed foods as the mainstay which is profoundly pro inflammatory. What is then happening is globally we are keeping people away from their prefrontal cortex and locking them into I am better than you, I don't want to have any relationship with other people who are different from me. And we're going to do everything we can to. You see where I'm going with this about what's happening globally as a consequence of the foods that people are eating causing more inflammation in the world. Wow.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah, it's kind of dark, but it's also easy to fix.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

It is. And people are recognizing it. And so I promised I was going to take it to a place, I was going to ask, right, because we're down, there's a segue. So what some have described happening with the over or the vast utilization globally of GLP1 agonist drugs, Ozempic like drugs, and this is not being pro or cons is an observation that somebody made and I'm going to relate it to you you is that we know that these drugs have a huge effect on behavior and have an effect on the reward system parts of the brain such that there's less craving. And it's interesting you and I have this discussion. However many floors above the casino and if you walk through the casino are you noticing there are less people playing the games?

[Dave Asprey]

I have definitely noticed that and it was predicted.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Wow. That because. And there got to, you know, maybe who knows it's the time of year before a holiday when it whatever. But overall the number of people that are gambling is diminished significantly. The thought being perhaps it's the widespread utilization of these GLP agonist drugs that are predicted to ultimately be used in the next five years by 25% of the global population. Whoa. The economic impact in terms of gambling but also in terms of binge buying. I need this right now. You go onto your favorite portal of choice and you buy something you may not necessarily want. People derive satisfaction from that. Get a brief dopamine surge from the fact that they're able to buy this, that and the other. It's going to be delivered to their house tomorrow. That this will have a multi trillion dollar effect on global economy.

[Dave Asprey]

So GLB1s reduce cravings not just for food but for everything across the board.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And will have a dramatic effect on number of deaths related to alcohol consumption.

[Dave Asprey]

This is incredible.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Incredible. Via driving with alcohol on board. So it's an interesting, unpredicted but now recognized issue that's developed.

[Dave Asprey]

Wow.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

I've said since the first study for weight loss on GLP1s that but at low doses these look like longevity drugs. And more and more studies are saying it looks like at least their health span and maybe lifespan extending. And is there a role for microdosing these for healthy people?

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

It's a great question. I mean I'd love to see people study it. We're just beginning to see people actually engage the studies. But you know, your physiology is expecting a bump of GLP1 following fat in the diet, fiber in the diet. And that GLP1 lasts in your physiology stimulating those receptors for three to five minutes. This isn't microdosing, but standard pharmaceutical dosing is about a thousand fold increased level of that GLP1 lasting for seven days.

[Dave Asprey]

That's a lot.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

It's a lot. What does microdosing mean in terms of dosage in terms of the half life of that GLP1 agonist drug in your bloodstream? I don't know. I mean so we can't make A statement about is microdosing going to do X, Y or Z? Because it's all over the place in terms of, you know, half life of the drug, dosage of the drug, blood brain barrier permeability of the drug, which I think.

[Dave Asprey]

Which drug? Because there's GLP 1, 2 and 3s now.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Right. And I think that as it relates to, for example, the, may I dare I say, positive effects in certain aspects of the microglial cells, brain doesn't necessarily have to be related to blood brain barrier penetration. So there's a push in, in my world of neurology to develop GLP1 agonists that have better blood brain barrier penetration.

[Dave Asprey]

Interesting.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

I don't think you really need that. And why? Because as I mentioned earlier, the cytokines, the inflammatory cytokines readily transgress the blood brain barrier. And in so many people these days, that blood brain barrier is dysfunctional anyway. And we can talk about why, but and therefore are able these cytokines, inflammatory chemicals that may have had their origin from, from a leaky gut or chronic mold exposure or any number of things to make their way into the brain and nudge those supportive, loving M2 microglial cells to being the evil twin.

[Dave Asprey]

Wow.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

It's a fascinating story about how this one little compound we didn't even know about not very many years ago has such a profound effect on us. And in the earlier days we were looking at things like leptin and ghrelin. But what I think is missing from the conversation, and you're hinting at it, mitochondria in the body all talk to each other. They're a community and they talk with inflammatory cytokines, they talk with vibration, they talk with actually single biophotons that they emit to each other. It's one reason that blue light is so disruptive even on the skin, because there's light based signaling. And we also have, I think, convincing but early evidence that they're quantum entangled with each other. Right. So there's multiple communication networks between these things and many of those go right through the blood brain barrier. So you do something to stress the mitochondria in your leg, it's going to be reflected in the brain at a minimum by inflammatory cytokines and probably by many other pathways. So if you look at them as a community, you disturb a community enough, you get a systemic effect in the community. Right. And when you have this community based thing, and this is mostly Martin Paul, I think does the best job as a mitochondrial biologist of explaining how powerful community is for these little mitochondria. And so I. I would be on your side saying you probably don't have to get into the brain, just have to get into the mitochondria somewhere and they'll talk to each other.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Let me take it a little further, if I may.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

My mitochondria are talking to your mitochondria.

[Dave Asprey]

Yes, they are.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And my mitochondria, through this quantum relationship, are communicating with, you know, everyone's mitochondria. Oh, yeah. And, you know, it's time we recognize that.

[Dave Asprey]

Thank you for saying this, especially with, you know, your credentials and one of the. The Rupert Sheldrake model of consciousness says that microtubules are the things that. That collapse quantum probability into reality. It's one of the more, I think, accurate and esoteric things. But what they don't include in that theory is that what clusters are on microtubules, it's mitochondria. So the microtubules are the antennas of quantum reality and the mitochondria are guiding that.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Them. Yeah, but I think his explanation, microtubules was that, you know, well beyond the translocation of mitochondria. Yeah, more of a translocation of energy.

[Dave Asprey]

Absolutely. But something's directing them. Of course, they may not. That's right.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

But, you know, I. I think they'll come. I'm hoping it comes in my lifetime that we really are able, not just to embrace this notion of interconnectedness, but be able to recognize that when we foster that, we will. When you look at Paul Stamets newest book and spend time with him, you know, he makes it very clear that, you know, what the importance for our survival of not just recognizing, but embracing this relationship that we have with all living things. And then, you know, the question is, well, how do we define living? What does that mean? And it's not a. But it's not just an exercise.

[Dave Asprey]

How do you. Now we've got to call Alberto Viotto, a mutual friend who you wrote a book with.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Right.

[Dave Asprey]

And the shamans will tell you the rocks are alive.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah, Right.

[Dave Asprey]

And they might be alive on a different level of consciousness in a different time scale. But I. I am of the opinion at this point in my life, having done all kinds of esoteric practice, that everything has some level of consciousness and.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

You're one with everything.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Well, you know, the classic definition, I think that the fallback was always that which metabolizes substrate, that which is able to alter its environment to enhance its survival. Great. I mean, those are good Working definitions. I don't necessarily. I will take it either less far or further. I will just offer up another idea. And it's interesting that you mentioned Alberto because this idea came to me when visiting him in Chile a couple years back. And I was walking along in the not woods in the scrub area and through their garden. He had a beautiful, they had a. Marcela, had a beautiful sunflower. And I was by myself and I went and looked at the sunflower and it was bearing seeds. It was a moment of fecundity for the sunflower. And I took a look at the seeds and if you ever study a sunflower seed, it's arrayed in a beautiful spiral. They're not just random.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And why is it in the spiral pattern? Well, that allows it to. In that area, likely the organization of that spiral allows it to be had the most seeds in any given area.

[Dave Asprey]

And the Fibonacci pattern reflects everywhere.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Right. And you know, is there some fractal component to that deeper in that plant? I would know that there is based on what I'm about to tell you. And I, you know, I, I understand how we would discuss that. You know, through trial and error, a Darwinian evolution would have finally selected out that chance mutation that caused this. I get it. I mean how we have five fingers, five to whatever. And then I went a little higher up on the mountain, started walking and pondering this and I decided that, that an alternative viewpoint might be reasonable to consider. Far be it for me to challenge Darwinian evolution, of course, but you challenged me earlier to think about something from a different perspective as well. I'm going to be with that. And here is the perspective was that health is being in touch with the field.

[Dave Asprey]

Thank you. A hundred percent.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And that when we're fully in touch with this field, it directs every aspect of our physiology and our manifestation. And the fact that we have five fingers and that the spiral array is what is demonstrated on the sunflower. It's a direct interpretation of that specific energy. Call it God energy, call it what you will. And to me that is then the definition of being alive. I walked upon a ridge and I came back, back and spoke to Alberto. I said I had a really nice walk up on that ridge. And Alberto said to me, Darwin once walked on that.

[Dave Asprey]

No, on that ridge. That's incredible.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

So maybe there's something special about that ridge. Yeah. Who knew? There was nothing on board at the time in, in terms of mind altering for me, but it was. I, I directed myself to a place that day that's why I was by myself. But anyway, it was an interesting day. Another reason I might have time to tell you, I don't know. But anyhow, so to me that was the definition for life because I'm not going to go to the place of must be metabolizing and must be altering its environment.

[Dave Asprey]

We're not meat robots.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

No, but look at the tardigrade. Yes, it's not when it's in space, in outer space and Israel just landed tardigrades on the moon, for crying out loud. The lander crashed. But to see if they could survive because they're not by that definition alive when they're in space. But they can then reestablish metabolism. Right. So I think there's an example that violates that of metabolism. But anyway, so there you go, another perspective.

[Dave Asprey]

I think there is a human biofield and there is a overall earth biofield and we're starting to even get ways to measure those, like early ways. And it's, it's funny, they're not meant to be apparent in our normal consciousness. Our bodies are not that well equipped. But they can be manipulated. Yeah, they can be manipulated and you can learn to sense them. And a lot of the shamanic training, some psychedelics, tantric sex, breath work, fasting for long periods, long periods of darkness. These are the tools of awakening that societies have used for many, many, many, many years to connect to that weird reality that's not our normal one.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Quickly, quickly. As opposed to years of psychotherapy. Yeah, exactly. And you know, embrace it. Gosh. I, I attended a lecture by a woman named Deborah Mash, who's an ibogaine researcher at University of Miami. And what she's been able to accomplish with addiction is just breathtaking. And not just her, her, you know, her research and her intervention but, but to, to explain why it's working and what a powerful tool in, you know, appropriate clinical. It's environment.

[Dave Asprey]

It's the one psychedelic that I haven't used because of the safety profile.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Exactly.

[Dave Asprey]

And I've, I would use it, but I like only with EKG and a cardiologist will I touch it. And I actually have an appointment sometime I think in February to go give it a try. Because I am a consciousness explorer amongst the other thing.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah. And I think your recognition of a, you know, this prolongation of the QT interval, if you will. Yeah. Having plenty of potassium on board would be a good thing. Thing. Yeah, for sure.

[Dave Asprey]

And, and so, and this is just a thing about psychedelics in general. They're not Always safe. I think ayahuasca has particular risks spiritually and others. People go crazy on some of these. Or you can have a serotonin crisis. And also if you're naive to these things, start slowly and have an appropriate facilitator, like especially for your first time, because you don't know if you have the genes for serotonin overload or not.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's true. Or you're on medication that might like a, you know.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah. If you're on an antidepressant or even high dose methylene blue could cause problems.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

You know, above all, do no harm. It's still the watchword even in this realm, if not more so. In this realm.

[Dave Asprey]

Agreed.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah. Wow.

[Dave Asprey]

I didn't think we were going to get to go to this kind of a conversation. David, this, this is, this is incredible. You're just one heck of a human being and you've consistently put out these books that are, are noteworthy. And I read all of your books because you always come up with a new way of thinking and you're just so well studied. But most of all, that underlying kindness, like you're genuinely working to make the world a better place. I think you've been doing that for many years.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

I appreciate that. I would shorten it. I'm generally working on it and it's clearly a work in progress. And I mentioned something earlier, maybe I didn't. Love thy neighbor as thyself. What a watchword. And, you know, I just wanted to deconstruct that for a moment. Love thy neighbor. Three words is not conditional. Love thy neighbor, provided they're Democrat, they're Republican, they're independent, they're black, they're white, they're from this country, that country, speak this language, or agree with you in any area whatsoever. It's just. Doesn't matter. Love thy neighbor. And it's hard to do.

[Dave Asprey]

Yes.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And then part two is as thyself. And that might even be harder.

[Dave Asprey]

Hey, gotta love yourself.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

But I think if you're able to love your neighbor, then loving yourself would be pretty easy. If you've worked on it, that depends.

[Dave Asprey]

On your neighbors, doesn't it?

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah, yeah. But if you've worked on that much, then yeah, yeah. The other one that I was thinking about the other day is judge not lest ye be judged. Thank you. It's not lest you be judged. It's transactional. Here's the consequence of judging somebody, then you'll be judged. And here's how I feel about that. I think judge not is Plenty. Just judged. Not. Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Judgment is an egoic manifestation. It's your mitochondria trying to be safe.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

But, you know, a lot of our judgment comes from early life programming, and that's part of what the work is all about, I think, is to. Barnett Bain has a new book out about being a friend, and he talks about how early in your life that there are challenges, that we were not good enough, we're not this enough, that enough are not deserving of love. All the things we spend an inordinate amount of a lot of our lives then establishing the calendars to those that allow us to be functional. I'm not good enough.

[Dave Asprey]

Yes, I am.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And here's why I'm not successful enough. Oh, yes, I am. I'm the head of a company. I'm rich, I've got a big house, I've got all these trappings.

[Dave Asprey]

You're still unhappy.

[Podcast Disclaimer Narrator]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

So. And then part three is that you finally get to the point you say that stuff doesn't matter a hoot, you know, and I am, you know, and that's the realization. That's the, you know, the enlightenment part is when you finally recognize that it's all good and it's all good enough.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And yeah, that's the work. That's the work part.

[Dave Asprey]

The work with a capital W. Ultimately, all of this, the. The idea of biohacking itself is. It's a Trojan horse to get people to pay attention to longevity and consciousness.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

There go Dave Asp. Holy Toledo. That's.

[Dave Asprey]

That's why I made it the way I did. And see, this has turned out to.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Be one heck of a combo.

[Dave Asprey]

It has, yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

God.

[Dave Asprey]

Because as soon as you realize you might live longer than you think, you don't be miserable for that long. So you might have to do something about that. And you'll have to do the consciousness work.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah. Everybody says, well, it's not longevity, it's health span. Okay. I think it's happiness span.

[Dave Asprey]

There you go. It's ultimately that and love span. When you do the work right, you're happy to go whenever you go. Right. And I personally, I like the idea of dying at a time and by a method of my choosing, because that is the most happiness I can think of. But if not, it's okay. Right. And to just be at peace with that. Your mitochondria don't want you to be at peace with that because they're single celled bacteria and they're like, you know, live at all costs, but it doesn't have to be that way.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

But yet they know when it's time.

[Dave Asprey]

They do.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And they will. If there's a cell that needs to go, they'll do it.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay. They don't mind a cell, but for the whole organism, there's so many systems there to keep our conscious brain from jumping off the cliffs and do it all.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

I wonder. I wonder if they have some global body wide recognition that it's time.

[Dave Asprey]

I've interviewed a couple hospice people and a woman who wrote a book, what Happens when we Die? Julie Lewis. Shoot. My brain isn't serving it up right now. And she's a psychic, but she also was a medical device CEO for many years and said, all right, guys, I'm gonna do this. She runs a great radio show, but she actually sent me her book. And it's like, here's what I see. When death is near and there are big things happen in individual humans feel. And I have so many friends now who have the ability to perceive things like that in a way that's unusual but not unprecedented in humans. And yeah, there's something that happens like the body knows and you can fight it to a certain point, but I don't think that's not a brain phenomena, that's a body phenomena. But I could be wrong.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah. And you can tune into that in others.

[Dave Asprey]

You're a medical professional. People who work with life and death. Absolutely. They know when someone's got to die. Like there's an inner knowing. Right. And have you experienced that? Yeah, yeah. And it's not something that most doctors are going to talk about because it's not scientific, but I, I have a great number of, of physician friends who've shared that with me. And sometimes with that patient you just know, like call the family. And there isn't data. They just know.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And it's not the intern, it's the.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah, it's the connection. Connection through our human field. And the best healers on earth are the ones who connect with other people in, in unseen ways to just know.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Years ago, I. I remember coming home and explaining to my wife that I could smell Parkinson's disease. Oh, yeah, I knew. I mean, I knew before I walked into the examining room. Yeah, I could smell it. And you know, the neijing. The yellow emperor in the fourth century B.C. described Parkinson's as being a liver issue. And there's this particular scent. And there was actually somebody written up the New York Times last year describing this. And I thought, well, that's a little bit of validation. But you know, Doctors didn't always have Mr. And, and blood work. It's totally that totally. They, they would need to rely on their ability to sense things and what needed correction. And, and the spiritual healers, the shamans and other forms of spiritual healers would work with the energy field which is overriding everything. And it's just too bad that we've gone to such physicality in terms of our understanding. It's a very Cartesian view of the human body which does not serve us well.

[Dave Asprey]

It's not very accurate at the end of the day.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Oh and it's so destabilizing in terms of what we're able to do and people, you know, I'll go on an interview and somebody say doctor, do you think there's a relationship between the gut and the brain, the so called gut brain connection? And the simple answer that I would like to offer, though I go into the more elaborate answer is why would you think there is this. Yeah, I'm doing a Talk tomorrow with Dr. Mark Houston on the heart brain connection.

[Dave Asprey]

Oh, beautiful.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

And why would we not think their intimate connection. Why would we not think that you and I have a heart. Heart connection right now? Or a liver, liver, whatever, you know, mitochondrial connection. Everything is sharing in this energy field that really wants goodness, really wants things to be intact and favor, you know, get us away from. Then you know, really fight entropy. You know, there is entropy in the universe as part of the expansion of the universe. But there has to be a white versus dark or dark versus light.

[Dave Asprey]

You can't have, there has to be light without that.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Right. And I think that's, that's what this spirit energy, call it what you will, that's invest itself in every subatomic particle in every part of the universe and every, it is all about. It's the, that's what balances entropy. It's organization, it's, it's so beautiful.

[Dave Asprey]

And yeah, there's an inherent goodness in all things at the end of the day. And sometimes it's just challenging to see that if you're inflamed.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah, I think there's inherent goodness in all things in the beginning of the day in all parts of the day. And I think it's just, you know, it's really up to us to take that deep breath and breathe it in and realize it just, it's there. It's not bad. We've got to get away from the fight or flight. The amygdala has got to stop ruling the day and we've got to recognize that Everybody around the world, we're all in this together.

[Dave Asprey]

Yes, indeed. David. What an amazing conversation. Every time we get to hang out, whether it's over dinner or on the show, we always.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

We never know. Right?

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Wow. Gosh.

[Dave Asprey]

Well, I appreciate you. I want to have you back on when your next book comes out.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Great.

[Dave Asprey]

Just educate the world about microglia. Let's take those neurons down a couple notches and elevate the microglia as equally valuable.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

The day of the microglia. I want to quick story on how I got up here. Yeah. So we're in a hotel room. You have to go through the security to get up to your room. I'm thinking about. Because of the field, and I. I didn't have the card to come up here. And I. You remember the scene? These are not the droids we were looking for.

[Dave Asprey]

Yes.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

We are not the droids you were looking for. So just tap into the. What do they call it in. In Star Wars? The field.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

No, the Force. Let the Force be with you all the same. Wow. So that was my experience coming up here.

[Dave Asprey]

Okay. I got to tell one more story, even though we're at the end of this, that's directly related to this the first time. I did training with Alberto Viota, the friend we talked about earlier on the show. So I've done training with him. He's been a guest as well. And I finished seven days, 10 days in the desert in altered states. No drugs involved, but just lots of meditation and altered states work. And I went to the airport in the Palm Desert, and I was in.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

A very weird state.

[Dave Asprey]

Not a bad one, just. Just different than normal. And I get there, there's a three hour line. I'm going to miss my flight. So I just put on this I belong here kind of thing. And I walked in through the employee entrance like I'm an airline employee. And it was exactly that. These are not the toys you're looking for. And they just waved me through. I was gonna say, well, I have a first class ticket. I didn't have to. And then we get to the little scanner, so I want to go through there.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Okay.

[Dave Asprey]

No, put it in here. And I. Oh, wow. And three minutes later, I'm on the other side. And I'm just kind of looking around going, what just happened? But it was the most amazing thing. But I think it was from all of that work.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah.

[Dave Asprey]

I've never experienced anything like that. But that these are not the droids.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Yeah. Again, we're at this conference. I'm giving a big talk, but only the people who are registered for the talk can get in, Right? And there are people from the convention floor who are doing business here. And they said, I'd really like to go to your talk, but I don't have the pass. And I said to them, don't be the droid they're looking for. And one, there are two guys. One guy got it it. The other guy didn't get it.

[Dave Asprey]

I'm gonna make a T shirt that.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

Says that I'm not the droid.

[Dave Asprey]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just don't be the droid they're looking for.

[Dr. David Perlmutter]

That's so good. Yeah, let's do that. Let's make a T shirt. Yeah, absolutely. We'll remember this day when we do that. Okay. All right.

[Podcast Disclaimer Narrator]

The Human Upgrade, formerly Bulletproof Radio, was created and is hosted by Dave Asprey. The information contained in this podcast is provided for informational purposes only and is not intended for the purpose the purposes of diagnosing, treating, curing, or preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced on the podcast, consult with your healthcare provider carefully read all labels and heed all directions and cautions that accompany the products. Information found or received through the podcast should not be used in place of a consultation or advice from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you have a medical problem or should you have any healthcare questions, please promptly call or see your healthcare provider. This podcast, including Dave Asprey and the producers, disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained herein. Opinions of guests are their own and this podcast does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast does not make any representations or warranties about guest qualifications or credibility. This podcast may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products or services. Individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to herein. This podcast is okay, owned by Bulletproof Media.