← Duologue with Leslie Heaney
Duologue with Leslie Heaney
Behind the Kilts: The Real History of Outlander with Daisy Prince
00:52:49
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- [00:03]
A
Hey, everybody, this is Leslie, and you're listening to Duologue with Leslie Heaney. An editor and journalist friend of mine, Daisy Prince, wrote a great article for Vogue magazine a few months ago highlighting the history behind Starr's hit show Outlander and its real life Frasier clan. That article was all in anticipation of the release of the prequel for Outlander that came out this past August called Blood of My Blood. So I loved Daisy's article, and I wanted to learn more about the Frasers and Scottish history. So I reached out to Daisy to see if she would be willing to come on the podcast to tell us all a little bit more about it. And thankfully for us, she said yes. So in this episode, Daisy and I talk about the origins of the Frasier clan, life in the highlands in the 18th century, mid to early 18th century. And then we take it all the way through to the famous Simon Shimmy Fraser, who was a World War II hero, and discuss him all the way up to the descendants that are living in Scotland today, the current 16th Lord Lovett. And then we even cover some Frasiers that you might not expect, including actor Russell Crowe. So for fans of Outlander or just listeners who are interested in Scottish history, this episode is one you will not want to miss. Daisy, I'm so happy to see you. Daisy's looking gorgeous, wearing a beautiful red top and red lipstick for those that are listening in the car, which is, as I said, very appropriate for discussing Blood of My Blood among other things today as we're discussing Outlander and its history. But, Daisy, I'm so happy to see you.
- [01:39]
B
Great to see you too, Leslie. Thank you for asking me to be on your show.
- [01:42]
A
Well, as you know, I read this incredible article that you wrote in Vogue about the sort of the real historical background behind Outlander. Actually, I was walking, as I told you, with a friend of mine this morning in Nashville, and I said, I have to get back home. I've got to, you know, put my face on because I've got a podcast at 10:30. And she asked what it was about, and this woman was like, when is that coming out? I mean, people are so excited. She said she had a poster of Jamie Frazier that she gave to. And as a joke like, I think, I don't know if it's just women of a certain age, but we all are captivated by Jamie Frazier and the Frasier clan and, you know, men in kilts. It really has really captured our imagination. And, you know, I love that, you know, you know, had the same idea and Thought about writing that in that article.
- [02:30]
B
Yeah. Well, I mean, as I said, you know, in the article, for me, it was. I sort of stumbled on it. I mean, I was. I had just had my second child, and, you know, those are some long nights and days of breastfeeding and kind of, you know, you're in a sort of a different space. And I really responded to the idea of this woman being taken out of her world into a new world and having to kind of fend for herself and using some of her skillset. You know, Claire is a great character because she's independent and she's strong, and she's already like a trained nurse in World War II. So she brought with her a level of kind of excellence and cleverness that, you know, you might not have expected somebody from that period to naturally come by. And, you know, she's feisty, she has a glass of whiskey. You know, she's a great heroine. And then she meets, you know, her match and Jamie, who's five years younger and whom she's forced to marry. So this is a sort of an interesting, you know, the whole story and the twists and. And how the Scots treat her, and then, you know, ultimately this sort of evil sadist and Captain Blackjack Randall. Yeah, I just found it really fascinating. And all of it, of course, being in the historical backdrop in the lead up to the Battle of Culloden, one of the most disastrous and sort of horrible, gory moments in Scottish and English history. I mean, 1500 Scots died, 300 British cavalry did, and it was the decimation of Highland culture. I mean, that's what's really interesting to me.
- [03:58]
A
So that is so fascinating because until I sort of watched Outlander, I did not realize just how much the Scottish culture at that time was sort of, you know, revolved a bit around mysticism and healers and sort of all. And you know, and the clans and as you said, and I want to get to sort of. We'll kind of start there and then get to that battle. And how that kind of shifted, didn't that sort of demolish, as you just said, in some ways, that entire way of life completely.
- [04:28]
B
I mean, it really was. It was forbidden. You couldn't speak Gaelic, you couldn't wear tartan, you couldn't bear arms. They were a very conquered people.
- [04:38]
A
So for people that are just listening, that might be sort of interested in Scottish history, our daughter just started her freshman year at St. Andrews. So when you're over there, I don't know, you just. Or people that like to Play golf, like to spend time in Scotland or just sort of interested in it and not as familiar with Outlander. It's going into its eighth season. It's having its eighth and final season in early 2026. But just this past August, the prequel to it called Blood of My Blood was just released. And it's all based on these best selling books from Diana, I think it's pronounced Gabaldon. Is her last name Gabaldon?
- [05:14]
B
Yeah, Gabaldon or Gabaldon.
- [05:15]
A
Yeah, it could be like tomato Tomaho on the gabled in front. But even though this is fictional based on these fictional books, there is some historical fiction and some historical events that are true and some real life historical figures. And it was set sort of in the time period of the first season was anyway in the 1740s. Tell us a little bit about what that movement was a little bit. And kind of the background that kind of led up to the battle that you just mentioned and kind of that big shift in life in Scotland.
- [05:52]
B
Well, I believe that it was after. It was after the glorious revolution of 1688. You know, they deposed the Catholic king and so Bonnie Prince Charlie's father was raised in exile and there was a great. It was really this sort of as a Protestant Catholic divide. And there was a very strong wish to get a Catholic king, a Stuart king, back on the throne. And so the Scots were mostly Catholic and they were rising, they went around raising funds, it looks like, you know, taking rents and things like that to try and get the Stuart king back, back on the throne. And Bonnie Prince Charlie was sort of, they said Bonnie being obviously a good looking or you know, like a, a special kind of guy, was the hero and they wanted to bring him back from France and put him on the throne. And that ultimately ended up being a complete disaster. It wasn't a well thought out plan. I think you can say it was like the storytelling and the mythology of the Scots brought them all together. But the canons and the organization of the British, they were no match for that. So it was a pretty bad defeat.
- [06:58]
A
So Bonnie Prince Charlie, right, he's part of the Stuart dynasty. He's living in France, I guess his real name is Charles Edward Stewart. His formal When Outlander begins and you're seeing like the redcoats are there and the British are kind of having these conflicts with these different Scottish clans. Are they at that point trying to snuff out what they see as kind of the origins of that movement are they remind me kind of what those initial conflicts were battling.
- [07:25]
B
I Think they just wanted to. There was a control aspect, right? They were just kind of harassing them. I think that they didn't, you know, from the beginning of the series, you know, they're sort of. They would harass. They would harass the clans up and down, you know, from during all of the 18th century, kind of just skirmishing. I mean, they were. They were unified. I believe it was the unification of 1707. But I think, you know, there was. I just saw a clip which was like, you know, why are Scotland and England, were they so fiercely against each other? And even now, it's like a marriage where they got together kind of too young. They're always deciding whether or not to get divorced. And, you know, but then they have the pension and like the house and. And so it's kind of. It's. It's. It's one of those, you know, one of those ideas. I thought that was kind of a funny way of looking at it. I think there was control. I think that the English wanted to ex control over the Scots. And the Scots were ultimately, you know, originally this sort of band of warriors. I mean, the whole Highland culture, it's a little bit sort of Viking and pagan and irreverent. It doesn't like authority. It's interesting. Some of it has some of the strains. After the Battle of Culloden, sort of 900 Scots were deported to the Americas, North Carolina and so on. And, you know, they brought, I think, a lot of the fear and distrust of government to this day. That's kind of a big part of kind of that Appalachian kind of strong culture. It's interesting.
- [08:45]
A
That is very interesting. And, you know, I told you when you and I were speaking before, before this, just how I've watched season one of Outlander, I hadn't. I sort of was jumping ahead and I'm like, what are they doing in the United States? I didn't. And then when I was sort of researching for this conversation, understanding, as you just said, that there were a lot of Scots that were deported, essentially deported to the US As a punishment after that battle. But, you know, and not to, because I know you're not a Scottish historian per se, but, you know, if you look at other, you know, kind of historical fiction in film and television, like Braveheart, for example.
- [09:19]
B
Right.
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A
Not to throw, but I think that kind of captures some of that. The clan relationships with the English that struggle even then. And that was 200 years, I think, before even longer.
- [09:30]
B
Wasn't it like 1300 or something? I know. I watch It. I watch Braveheart. I like the scene. It's a good scene to run to, actually, is when they're fighting the English are fighting the Scots, you know, in.
- [09:42]
A
That movie, you know, thinking about it now as we're talking, you know, William Wallace, when he marries his bride, it is a pagan ceremony. So back then. So it's interesting to me that the Scots would even want to kind of weigh in or have a stake in who is assuming the English crown, like wanting to even bring somebody back from exile or have anything to do with it, because they seemed. So there must have been something about Bonnie Prince Charlie that was compelling to them in some way.
- [10:10]
B
I think it was because he was Catholic. I think that was probably the main. If I'm not mistaken, it might have been the Catholicism.
- [10:17]
A
You're right. Braveheart was set during the late 13th and early 14th century, so around 1296 to 1305. And that was them leading a rebellion against the English occupation of Scotland under King Edward I. So you're right that, like that young marriage or that, you know, sort of tumultuous relationship between the Scots and the English has been going on for a long, long time. I actually interviewed this guy called Tom Oprah, who produced a film called the Last Keeper, which is about the keepers of the estates in Scotland, in the Highlands, and how there is this conflict between people in cities wanting to have. Impose certain policies on them that are kind of against sort of their traditional. Hundreds of years of maintaining these estates, including how they're managing different plant life and different animals. And it's really interesting. And he was saying it just sort of goes back to that original tensions between some Scots feeling like the English came in and were given these. When Queen Victoria kind of decided that Balmoral was going to be her place, a lot of wealthy English went and bought these or built these incredible castles and manor homes there. And so that tension kind of exists, he was saying, even today.
- [11:34]
B
Yeah, I would say that it certainly is there. James II of England was deposed in 1688 in the Glorious Revolution. It was glorious because he did not get his head chopped off as would have happened maybe in previous. You know, we all grow up on the tales of Henry VIII and all that.
- [11:50]
A
We love a good beheading. We love a good beheading.
- [11:52]
B
We love a good beheading. Well, this time they didn't. It was, you know, William and Mary of Orange, right. You know, Dutch Protestants, and they came over and was the Glorious Revolution. So it turns out that he, you know, his son, who was James Francis Edward Stuart and grandson Bonnie Prince Charlie Charles Edward Stewart were both Catholic. And, you know, I think that in Scotland, in the Highlands, it was not a purely religious motivation because many of the Protestants backed the Jacobites too, but it was really motivated by, I think, loyalty to the clan, resentment of English rule, and a desire to restore Scottish sovereignty. So it was really just this idea of bringing back, I guess, one of their own on throne, so they really, you know, wanted it. And also in lowland Scotland, Bonnie Prince Charlie was. It was more about the idea of Catholic absolutism returning foreign influence. So it was a big reason, but not entirely the only reason. So.
- [12:46]
A
So as we said, so out. Outlander itself is. Is fictional, but the producers kind of went to great pains to really accurately portray what life was like during that time.
- [12:56]
B
Right.
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A
You talk about some. I mean, a lot of the. We mentioned a little bit of kind of the paganism or like, sort of the mysticism of kind of their herbal remedies and, you know, the role of superstition and kind of the dynamics between the clans. All of that stuff is covered pretty accurately and thoughtfully, you know, in the series.
- [13:15]
B
Absolutely. And also, frankly, you know, the punishments. I mean, you know, I remember one of. In one of the series, you know, some poor boy has, like, stolen a bannock or some bread, and he's, like, nailed, you know, to. To a wooden cart, and Jamie has to help him rip his ear. I mean, you know, stuff like that where you're like, oh, okay, you know, those reminders, in a way, reminders of, you know, however, what's going on with you now, you know, life is better. You know, it's gonna be more like.
- [13:42]
A
Those are some interesting parenting tips or way. I mean, I don't know, the. The nailing the ear to the cart.
- [13:47]
B
The nailing the ear to the cart, that kind of thing. I. You know, that. That always struck me something very, very intense. And, you know, there's also, you know, just. Just the fear of witchcraft. You know, at one point, Claire and Gaylis are imprisoned because they are healers and they are good at doing spells and things like that. And when you went against the church and maybe you could heal a child and unlike, you know, that was. That was a big unlike. They were very superstitious. They believe the devil possessed you. And so that was sort of part of the. Part of the suspicion and superstition against women, and particularly in that. And at least as it was portrayed in that series.
- [14:21]
A
Oh, yeah. Well, you know, it's actually, you know, you mentioned it earlier Sort of her being so resourceful and commanding and strong. I mean, she had all of those skills, obviously, as being a nurse during World War II, but coming into that time period and being a nurse and having actual medical training and knowing what to do, because things were not super advanced, as we mentioned back then. So having her have those skills were almost immediately. It's almost like Salem. Salem in the U.S. right. Sort of like having those kind of. Those skills sort of had her be kind of labeled as a. Perhaps a witch or having some mythical powers. All right, so Jamie Fraser, as we've mentioned, unfortunately, is a fictional character. Fortunately, he's a character that we all get to watch. Kilt on, kilt off. You know, I'll take it either way. But the Frasier clan, the clan itself that he comes from, is a real Scottish clan, and that's really what you wrote about in that great article. Tell us, give us a background on the Frasers.
- [15:29]
B
So they were really. They really sort of were first mentioned, I think, in about 1160, and, you know, as one of the big Highland groups up there. And they kind of gathered and amassed power, I think, not so much really through fighting, but really through marriages and by kind of gathering properties and things like that. And so they were one of the big groups there. And then they. They very much got drawn into this Jacobite cause. Lord Lovett was very famously the last man to be beheaded, I believe, in England. So this is after the Battle of Culloden. I mean, he was. And he does feature in the Blood of My Blood series, where he kind of plays both sides off the middle. I mean, he's a traitor to everybody. And he was. He's.
- [16:11]
A
Which, by the way, was historically accurate. Right. So he. For people, Lord Lovett, who is a real historical figure, Simon Fraser is his name.
- [16:19]
B
Sorry. Yeah, Fraser. So love it is the title. So you would say Lord Lovett, and then his name is. And so that's the title. Is. Is. Is. Is the. Love it.
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A
Okay.
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B
The. The name of the title, and then their. Their. Their given name is Fraser, which is an interesting thing. So I. Americans, we don't do titles. Right. That's not our thing.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So, but if you have. You'll have. In a family, everybody will have the same name. Like. Like Windsor. Right. But they would have, like, Windsor is their name, but then their titles are the Prince of Wales, the Princess of Wales. So his name is William Wales, actually. William Wales, William Windsor. But then it's. His title is the Prince of Wales. So his title is. It was Lord Lovett. He was Simon Fraser.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And he was the 11th. I'm going to look this up, but I believe that he was the 11th Lord Lovett. And he was. He was known as the Old Fox because he was constantly, I think, shifting alliances and, I don't know, playing one thing off the other and kind of terrible, basically, to both sides. So after the Battle of Culloden, he was captured and he was tried for treason. And I do know that the phrase laughing your head off comes from him. And I verified this with his descendant, the current Lord Lovett, which is that he was, as he was being beheaded and the noose was around his neck, the stand of onlookers, because people would come and watch beheadings because, I guess, something to do. Why not?
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A
Yeah, it was like movies or something.
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B
Yeah, yeah. Like the movies or the circus. And the stand collapsed, you know, while he was, you know, getting the noose around his neck. So he. Well, while he was being executed, he started laughing, like, at this. So it's called, you know, laughing your head off. And that was, you know, and actually, I'm not sure even if maybe he was guillotined or hung. I don't have that. Nope, it was beheaded. So there you go. Before he was beheaded, he was laughing at the onlookers. So I love it. It's. Yep, he was. So that was the character. But it's kind of fascinating. The other thing I didn't actually write about in the article, but I think is interesting to talk about a little bit, is about when you talk about that clan history and its emergence in the States and how very strong and powerful it is actually, as a unifying bond and community. There's a really big resurgence of interesting Scottish history, Highland games. They do a lot of these things sort of in North Carolina, in the. In different places. I was looking them up and I do know I had another friend called Donald Cameron, who's the head of Clan Cameron in the uk, and I haven't seen him for years, but he did tell me a great story about when he went down to visit one of these places, one of these games, and they were so excited to have him, and they said, this is great that you're here. You know, you're in your tartan now. We dip the wick. And he was like, the what? So everybody would take the ends of their tartan and they would dip it in whiskey and then suck the end of this. And he was like, what? And this is sort of. This is so interesting to me that they. That the American clans had taken this practice and kind of. It had come up from their own traditions, and he was perfectly delighted to take part in it, but it had never been done in Scotland. And Lord Lovett, the current Lord Lovett, I asked him about this, and he said that, yes, something quite similar had happened to him. So I thought it was sort of interesting. The Americans have taken this culture and made it their own, in a way. So I don't know.
- [19:38]
A
That is fascinating because I have seen sort of advertisements for those things in the US I've seen it in Scotland, too. Like, you know, that things are happening when I've gone to see our daughter. But I sort of assumed they were always like, when you'd go to like. Like medieval times or something. Like, I didn't think it was actually based in real. I thought it was more just sort of fun reenactments and not having kind of an origin story of maybe tracing back to their own Scottish ancestors, descendants that actually came to the US and maybe even came from the Highlands or as part of that kind of excommunication that took place after that battle.
- [20:14]
B
Definitely, it's really important. I mean, that battle, that people, that ideology. And the other interesting thing I find about it is, so you remember, these were not the Puritans who came. I mean, Puritan culture, which is really strong and basically kind of American Founding fathers super strong in the Northeast, it's lessened much, much less down, you know, in the south and where you are in Nashville and everything, it's really not about. And so that there's a real. As I say, there's a real sense of the individual, of community, of. Of all of those things is very important, I think, in Southern and Appalachian culture. And it comes, I think, and I think, a little bit of suspicion of distrust of a big government. You know, they. They're. You know, they. They're clan, clannish, smaller community people. And I think that it's quite reflective. Even now you might find tenants of that.
- [21:02]
A
So that is really interesting, Daisy, now that you say that, because you do, there is such a sense. You're much more. Like when we moved, for example, our neighbors came over with a tomato pie and a bottle of wine, and all of the neighbors came over and introduced themselves to us. And, you know, you might see that, you know, some. You might see that in. In the Northeast, but the way it was done and it just seemed very intentional and it seemed very common, meaning it wasn't sort of like just these particular people in the Northeast. It might be like we Have a really nice neighbor on our street. They came by and introduced themselves, but it's very much sort of more of the individual versus the community. There's a lot of casseroles that go around these parts. There's a lot of, you know. And I notice when people ask me how I do, I like living here. The people are very inclusive. Like, they're very, you know, come over, come to. Come to this thing. And so that's very interesting that that might be actually connected to the origins of those that came here a very, very long time ago. Okay, so the show, as we know, kind of builds towards this battle of. Yeah, I want to say Culloden. I mean, I have some real.
- [22:15]
B
Culloden. Yes.
- [22:16]
A
See this. I have some real pronunciation challenges at 51. So I'm gonna let you. I'm just gonna call it the battle. But what actually. So was it something that happened by happenstance or was like, the Lord Lovatts and the Scots that were pro Stuart, were they really pushing to have this conflict to sort of. Did they think they were gonna be successful? Were they looking forward to this battle as sort of the final moment to get their king back on the throne?
- [22:45]
B
I think they were. I think it was kind of. I think they were really thinking that this was the moment that it was all going to kind of go their way. And maybe it was a lack of communication and you people were not. I mean, that might have also been. Maybe that also played a part in it. But what was very clear. It was a very, very bloody and quick battle. It was over in an hour. 1500 Scots died, 300 British cavalry or British soldiers died, and it was the end of it. I mean, they were sort of annihilated because they didn't, you know, they had pickaxes and guns, but they did not have cannons and organization and the hierarchy, which is what the British arm, you know, they. They conquered the world. And that was.
- [23:31]
A
Right.
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B
You know, that was. That's why. I mean, it's funny because I think as Americans, we think of how we. We won against the Brits and how that. Why that. You know, you might wonder why. Why the. You know, they were easy to pick off for our militia, Right. That was because they were wearing the red coats. But this is. That. This was a different topography perhaps, you know, it was an open plane as opposed to, say, fighting in trees and things like that.
- [23:53]
A
That's exactly what I was going to say to you, is that, you know, a military historian. I am not. But I would just having. From what I understand. Of the American Revolution, a lot of it was these skirmishes of our militias. Right. I mean, you had the formal army kind of led by Washington, but he would have to go and he was getting people. Can I grab these guys? These guys? I mean. And it was a lot of. Kind of what we would think of, more of a guerrilla warfare than the line fighting that you'd see the Brits engage in in the American Revolution to some extent, when we were fighting them in that way. But a lot of our fighting happened, you know, jumping out of trees and having, you know, booby traps and just knowing our terrain and kind of doing things in a bit of a different way. Okay, so where. Give me the setting battle.
- [24:40]
B
Yeah, I mean, it was sort of interesting. I think that the Jacobite army just had marched south into England and then back north. So it had covered hundreds of miles in winter. They were tired, they were hungry, they were badly supplied. And so basically they ended up having a confrontation which was. It was the Duke of Cumberland's army, and he had like 9,000 thousand very well trained troops against 5,000 Jacobite soldiers. And Culloden Moore is flat and boggy and open. It's the worst ground for the Scott, for the Jacobites main tactic, which is the Highland charge. I mean, look, a bunch of Scots coming at you, like, charging with all of that pagan. You know, that would be scary, right? But that was. They were kind of their traditional rush with broadswords and, you know, shields was slowed in the mud and easy to cut down by musket fire and cannons. So they were. So that's kind of. They were cannon fought, I mean, not fodder. They were mowed down. It was a terrible moment. So it was just. It was a military. It was a military decision. It was a military disaster. But, you know, it was. Bonnie Prince Charlie apparently insisted on fighting there, so he was not the right leader to follow. And they died.
- [25:41]
A
So what? So did he die at the battle? Tell me what happened to him. And was part of the charge. Was he seen by the English as one of the leaders of the rebellion, or was he just sort of at the wrong place at the wrong time or.
- [25:54]
B
I know that Bonnie's Minch Charlie, I think, was spirited away on a. On a boat to France. As far as I can tell, that he retreated. I will double check that, but I recall that. And Lord Lovett, I doubt was at the charge. I. But I will. I can find. I don't think he was at the charge, but was. You know, I can ask if he Was. I think he might have been around, but something tells me that. That he was not, you know, but.
- [26:13]
A
He was identified as a. As a leader or conspirator, which is why he was killed.
- [26:17]
B
Yes, well, because he was also fundraising and, you know, you can. You can. You know, he was definitely part of the Jacobite cause. If not maybe at the actual battle, risking his personal hide, you know, so. But I'll just find out if he actually was there or not. No, he wasn't. He was actually 80. He was too old, and they beheaded him at 80.
- [26:42]
A
Anyway, I feel like it's like, yeah, he should have some sort of suspended sentence. But I guess he, you know, at that time, they were probably so kind of threatened and, you know, by anybody. Like the fact that you have these elders kind of organizing against the Crown. Okay, so you talked about it a little bit earlier.
- [27:01]
B
His son fought. His son fought for him. His son was there. So he was there. He led the Fraser men into battle.
- [27:07]
A
What happened to the Klan after that? So an outlander, Jamie Frazier. Right. And Claire moved to. Or they're exiled to the. To the Americas, which, as we said, about 900 Scots were Americas and the Caribbean. But what happened to the Frasier clan, the real Frasier clan, after that battle? We know we lost Simon Frazier or Lord Lovett, but did his son survive?
- [27:31]
B
And his son survived. They were not entirely destroyed. You know, they were scattered. Some went to North America after the uprising to the Carolinas in Canada, and I think the current Lord Lovett has gone to visit them. And he loves clan. He loves clan culture, and he's actually really very interested in continuing that. Wanting to kind of continue that interest in the community and the history behind it. He finds it all really fascinating. This is the one who's alive today, who's. Yeah, like 48. And it was re. Established, apparently, the title in the 19th century, and they sort of regained, I guess, some standing in. In Scottish society. They. I think, you know, I have a feeling, you know, they might have, you know, done very well with sort of estate planning. They might have had some good advantageous marriages. That's kind of one of the way. I mean, they're. They're very. They're very attractive, the Frasier family, even.
- [28:19]
A
Like the real Frasiers. I was gonna say that the show got that right. Yeah. Taking a quick break here to tell you a little bit about my latest sponsor, Karun. I'm a huge fan and customer of their products, and I promise, once you see their things, you will be, too. Karun is A contemporary travel brand with the most beautiful custom bags, hand painted bags, totes luggage, travel accessories and more. They even have gorgeous mahjong mats that you won't find anywhere else. Their products are made of the finest Italian leather and canvas. And Karun really harkens back to a bygone era in their design of travel and exploration. Their products make the best hostess presents, birthday gifts, thank you gifts, particularly because they can all be personalized with someone's monogram or their pet or any creative thing that you come up with. You may have seen some of Karun's products on celebrities like Jennifer Aniston, Jennifer Garner, Reese Witherspoon, the list goes on there. And of course, they're also among Oprah's very favorite things. And what's more is duologue listeners get 20% off of any Karoon purchase. Just go to their website@www.karoon.com. karoon is spelled C O R, R O O. And so it's C O, double R, double O, N. Just enter the promo code Duolog when you check out for 20% off. Trust me, you will not be disappointed. The Frasier clan, though, yes, we're now like in the 1700s of the 18th century, but in the 20th century they had a World War II hero, right, the Frasers.
- [29:55]
B
Yes, yes, they did. He was apparently particularly amazing. He led the World War II commandos on D day with his own personal bagpiper on the bridge.
- [30:06]
A
Stop it.
- [30:08]
B
Yes, yes, he brought his own personal bagpiper. He was called Shimmy Shimmy Frazier. And he's really, really handsome. And he was known to be, it's not a very nice thing, but, you know, the handsomest, the handsomest man to sort of slit a throat is what Winston Churchill called him. But yeah, so he was. And he was a great war hero. I love.
- [30:25]
A
Now, did he survive D Day?
- [30:27]
B
He did. He survived. He survived and he went on. And in fact, it's kind of an interesting, if not, I wouldn't say necessarily, it's, it's a kind of a case of what's happened to British estates or British and Scottish estates now, which was that he did. He survived. He lived for a very long time and I think he died in, you know, his 80s. But he died and then unfortunately his son died very quickly. And with the British death duties, the estate was hit twice. So the young Simon Lovett, Lord Love it Now, was forced to sell the castle, Beaulieu Castle. And so I think that that was, you know, very difficult for the family. But they have actually been gathering. They actually do own property now. And they're. They're actually kind of gathering more and they're trying to get. That's a dream, I think, of theirs to buy back their. Their family seat, as they would call it. So I hope they do.
- [31:17]
A
So, not that you're, you know, a tax attorney in the uk, but how does their death tax compare to state taxes here? And what, you know, is it.
- [31:27]
B
How did they. Is it based on or 40%, something like that? And I think it might have even been higher at that time. So it was. Death duties were really known. They really crushed the British aristocracy in the sort of mid to late 20th century. You know, they were.
- [31:45]
A
That is fascinating. I did not realize that. I guess it makes, you know, you're following like the. The Downton Abbey. They're having their final season too. And obviously that's England, it's not Scotland. And we're talking sort of, I think around that same period maybe of the. Well, I don't know when the Frasers might have been much later than that. But when you start to get. After post World War I, there was just. The entire structure of English society took a hit. I think actually maybe just around the depression in the 20s. And then you had World War II and just people dying, leaders dying, and then having. It sounds like these big payments were very difficult to get ahead of.
- [32:28]
B
I mean, the estates in the 20th century actually reached as much as 70 or 80% for some of the really large estates. So they were really designed in order to break up these aristocratic holdings and redistribute wealth. So this was really actually intentional that it would happen. So.
- [32:45]
A
I see. Interesting. Okay, so today, Simon Fraser, who's the 16th Lord of Lovett, is living in Scotland. Right. With his wife living in Scotland. Tell us the name of that castle again, because I think I read Beaulieu.
- [33:00]
B
Beaulieu. B E A U L Y. Beaulieu Castle.
- [33:04]
A
And aren't they having people that are Outlander fans coming to check it out? Did I read this somewhere? I feel like.
- [33:12]
B
Did you?
- [33:12]
A
Tell me this? Tell me. Yeah, tell us about that. So if you are an Outlander, Huge Outlander fan, you too can go. Right. I'm sure there's other spots all over Scotland where they do a lot of filming, but they do have people kind of going up right near their. On their lands and near their castle and.
- [33:31]
B
Yeah, I don't know. Well, Beaulieu's no longer owned by the Frasiers, so that would probably not. Wouldn't work. But yes, definitely. No, Simon definitely has their. He has lands and he has. And he has been. And he's met some of these Outlander fans and he says it's fun and he loves that they're so enthusiastic about his family, although he does have to gently tell them that there are no stones and that it's not totally real. But, you know that he's thrilled that, you know, that they have such interests in the family and the Jamie rage, Jamie Fraser, the Jamie Fraser that we've all. This iconic figure that we're all interested in love with, that he doesn't actually exist. So that's.
- [34:10]
A
Sometimes.
- [34:10]
B
This is a tiny bit awkward, but. But otherwise, he's always thrilled, I think, to have people interested in his family. And I think it's been a big. I honestly think it's been a big boost for. I mean, it's really. It's been great. I mean, I think, you know, they, they, they have an estate and they do fishing and they have, like, a lodge that you can rent. I looked into it, and you can go and stay there. And so there is certainly. And it's beautiful. I mean, that area, if you have a chance to go, Leslie, it's absolutely stunning. I mean, the Highlands are so pretty up there. It is really worth, worth, worth the trip up. And you can. You feel the sense of majesty and expansiveness. And I think it's certainly worth the trip. So, yeah, I think people do go up and there's Highland history. And then the only other thing I was going to say that Simon noted to me in the article, which I thought was so interesting. So he is a friend of Russell Crowe, the actor.
- [35:07]
A
Oh, yes, you told me. Yes. Tell me about, Remind me about this.
- [35:10]
B
I found this totally fascinating. So Russell Crowe, somehow, and I didn't quite figure this out, is a descendant of the old Fox. So he's. So I guess the old Fox maybe had several children and I don't know, maybe this was a younger son line, you know, because a title would have gone to the oldest son. It's always the oldest son. So there would have been younger sons. And somebody in Russell's crow's family went to Australia and the direct descendant of that line, and he, a few years ago got really into his history and I guess he was introduced to the current Lord Lovett by a friend, a mutual friend of theirs in film business or something, and they became, they became buddies and so now they, they talk. And in fact, Russell Crowe, when he went to Wimbledon this year, wore a Frasier tie, borrowed from the Lord Lovett. Borrowed from the current Lord Lovett at the most English of English events at Wimbledon. So I thought that was a really.
- [36:08]
A
Sort of like his own statement.
- [36:11]
B
Yes. Like rebellion against. You know, I love that. Isn't that funny? So, yeah, so this tension still exists and, you know, one way or another.
- [36:21]
A
So Blood of My Blood, which admittedly I've not seen yet, but it is.
- [36:25]
B
Okay.
- [36:25]
A
It's the prequel. Right. And that was released in August and it's gotten actually great reviews.
- [36:30]
B
Yeah.
- [36:31]
A
What time period does that. You know, you mentioned that you're that Lord Lovett and the Old fox or the Silver fox. What are we. What do we. What's his nickname? The. The.
- [36:39]
B
I think we call him the Old Fox. I think he's called the Old Fox. There's nothing silvery about him, that he's grizzled and horrible.
- [36:47]
A
Maybe I'm just, you know, trying to impose my. My Jamie fantasies on top of the old man.
- [36:52]
B
But.
- [36:52]
A
But it goes back to. It sort of explores the period before this. Right. So earlier in the 18th century, and you were saying, you know, that just there was. Life had some really kind of brutal aspects to it then.
- [37:07]
B
There's a lot about the sort of birth and gynecological practices at that time and what happened with women in regards to marriage and children and childbirth. And one of the things that's interesting is that the Claire's mother. Who's the name, the main character's name I'm now forgetting, but it's Henry. And I can't remember what the other. What the main character is.
- [37:29]
A
She's telling her story. And I'm gonna look up the.
- [37:31]
B
She, you know, is carrying her. You know, it's a time travel. She's carrying Henry, her English husband's baby. She seems to have already given birth to Claire and who's living in the 20th century, I guess, and she's pregnant with this. With a baby and a baby boy. And she has to give birth in the 18th century, this time traveled lady. And there is this situation which apparently was. And I did go on a deep dive and look it up, which was called like. Like the. The Howdah H O W D I E which is where that was a sort of a midwife. But a midwife would come up and would help you give birth when you were part of the community. But she was also accompanied by what were called the Gossips. And the Gossips were a group of women, and they would come and they were supposed to give you, I think, reassurance and help and hold your hand and act like doulas. But it seems to me that at least in this particular situation, they were anything but. I mean, they were, they were gossiping.
- [38:33]
A
I mean, being like, my God, she's.
- [38:35]
B
Well, no, they were really, you know, saying, oh, is this your baby? Because in this particular. In the blood of my blood, the main character has to pretend she seduces Lord Lovett in order to pretend because she's already pregnant in order to say that that child is hers, that she's impregnated by Lord Lovett. It. And she's already carrying a child. So when she's giving birth, Brian Fraser, who is Jamie Fraser's father's mother, she's called Mistress Porter, is suspicious of this. And she says, you know, that can't be your baby. And she says it is, it is. And even until the end of this birth scene where these, the group of women who are called the Gossips, and that was actually the name for them in the 18th century, the gossips, accompanied by the howdah, which is the midwife, they're really yelling at her and trying to get her to admit that it's not her, that the baby is not Lord Lovett, it is not Lord Lovett's and she won't be broken by this moment. But it's a really slightly horrible sounding practice. And then not to go too into it, but there's another scene in which Ellen Mackenzie has to prove her virtue even though she's already begun her affair with Brian Fraser because she's supposed to be married to Malcolm Grant and they conduct a purity test on her. There was a book apparently called the Trotula, which is. Which had all these kinds of remedies in it where ladies, I guess, if, you know, they'd had a earlier boyfriend, could convince a purity test person, you know, that they were virgins. So that was.
- [40:12]
A
Wow.
- [40:13]
B
So it goes into all of this, really. And it's interesting because you're fascinated. Like, is this real? Does they make this up? I don't think they did make that up. And it's, it's a whole, it's a, it's an interesting study of 18th century gynecolog practices which. So who is. I had never known about, because when.
- [40:30]
A
I was reading about this, because you'd mentioned to me some of these, like, kind of barbaric practices, I, you know, did a little reading on the World Wide Web and I found out that men were not, as you mentioned, it was these. It was all women. Right. It was kind of the Midwives but then during. Later, during this time, men became. Because there was a male doctor whose name escapes me, who invented Forceps. And so once he invented Forceps, it sort of Men kind of. Or male doctors, or even just the practice of obstetrics medicine.
- [41:08]
B
Obstetrics, right. Yeah, yeah.
- [41:10]
A
I mean, gee, again, this is back to my pronunciation issues. That was sort of evolved during that time. And it was. And it was around the. The creation of that device, because prior to Forceps, there was some other horrible thing that they would use that was a. Because if the mother was dying in childbirth, they would have to use a way to extract the baby where the baby wasn't able to survive, whereas forceps. And they could. And then men started getting involved. So I'm just curious, who's doing these virgin exams? It's like the gossips. I mean, it sounds like.
- [41:45]
B
No, the virgin exam, at least in Blood of My Blood, is conducted by men. So that's the male doctor. In fact, they insist on it and they insist on not having the McKenzie doctor, whom they think, quite rightly, they'll just. We'll find for virtue, because it's very much in their interest. No, the grants provided their own physician and that physician gave the exam. But the idea was that before the exam, the trotula gave some tips and help as to how to fool that physician into things. It was famously. It was famous. Yeah, so it was an 18th. It was an 18th century book that was full of these kinds of practices, apparently. But I mean, the tests themselves were famously inaccurate. I mean, you know, it was.
- [42:32]
A
They were not a good. When people like the. The people trying to, you know, who have to take a drug test for something, you know, or like an alcohol, you know, or they get busted at school or whatever, all the different ways you try to avoid.
- [42:44]
B
Yeah, of course, you know. Yeah, that's exactly. So they were doing all that, they were doing that in those practices. But it was interesting to sort of see how important it was. And one of the things that comes out of it, and, you know, Ellen McKenzie says, well, I'll just distract the doctor by asking him questions and flattering him. And they said, no, you mustn't speak, because one of the things that makes you impure as a woman in the 18th century was actually if you talked and if you were talking too much, then they said that that's. That's a sign of a loose woman.
- [43:14]
A
I can't wait to see blood of my blood here. I thought that, you know, things in Outlander were pretty, you know, so I know.
- [43:20]
B
It's really. It's a hole. They go into a hole. There's less about the sort of. There's less about the sort of being swept off your feet by the handsome. I mean, there is some of that, but it's really more into the. Life was tough. I mean, that. That's what I take away so much from the series that I hadn't really expected was the escapism, of course. But life was tough and it was brutal. And the producers are really good at showing you how bad it was, how hard disease was, how difficult it was to even get fed, how powerless many people were, not just women, but even Brian Frazier, if you had. It was a very different and a more brutal time. And I think that's. There's a good recognition of that in the series, and I think that it makes you feel better about wherever you are now, I hope.
- [44:03]
A
Oh, for sure. And you mentioned the brutal kind of aftermath after the Battle of Sea. I'm not gonna try to pronounce it.
- [44:14]
B
The Battle of Culloden. Culloden.
- [44:15]
A
Culloden. Thank you. And you sort of touched on a little bit. But after that battle, you know, there were so many things that were kind of abolished about that Highland clan way of life. Right. They couldn't. You mentioned earlier, they couldn't. Weren't allowed to speak Gaelic. Right? They couldn't. Could they not get. When like a Russell Crowe's wearing the tartan tie, you know, were tartans. Were all of those kind of clan identifiers. Were they bad as well?
- [44:42]
B
Forbidden. Forbidden.
- [44:45]
A
So when did the Scots. And again, you're not a Scottish historian, so, you know, we don't have to. But when did they. Then was it more accepted that people could have their Highland Games and, you know, celebrate their tartans and.
- [44:58]
B
Probably mid to late 20th century. Yeah, I think that became the time. I mean, I will tell you even, you know, but it was interesting. I mean, people were decimated. The Scots were decimated. I can tell you even from my own. My, you know, my husband's family are. They're called the Chisholms, and they're mentioned sometimes in the series, which I always really found really fun. So my husband's ancestor, after the Battle of Culloden, he fought, you know, as a Jacobite. He walked down by foot. Henry Chisholm walked all the way to London and got himself a job in Buckingham palace as a footman. And that's kind of how, you know. And then they ended up staying down in London and, you know, kind of getting into life down there. But. And now they're English, but it's, it's kind of fascinating. And so there's a lot of diaspora, both in the state, going to the states, but also I think a lot of them came down. A lot of the Scots came down to London and found jobs. They had to. They were. They were going to starve.
- [45:51]
A
That is really interesting. That is really interesting. So my last and final question. Do we have any intel on the kilt situation or kilts? Like, I always. I might think that they're not, you know, that they're. So when you were talking about the Simon Frazier, you know, the 14th, the.
- [46:11]
B
Lord Lovett, the current games in North.
- [46:13]
A
Carolina, when he had to dip the wick or whatever, I was just wondering how he managed that. If he's, if he is a traditional Scot and perhaps not. Not having anything on underneath his kilt.
- [46:26]
B
I mean, it's a great question and I'm sure he did it to post from.
- [46:30]
A
I'm sure that he did now. But, but like, you know, back in the day, that is a real thing, right? The no underwear.
- [46:37]
B
Well, that, yes, apparently, yes. I mean, I again, didn't, didn't have never, you know, I have never verified. But as I say, I'm married to a person of Scottish descent who's very English and has never, to my knowledge, worn a kilt. I love a great source on that one.
- [47:00]
A
I just, I'm sure that, like, you know, maybe. But I just wonder when they're in these reenact, you know, the. It's.
- [47:06]
B
I'm sure they do. No, I mean, they would put that as a point of pride. I mean, they absolutely would. I would have no doubt that they would do that if that was. If that's the. If that's how it is, then that's how it is. I would think it'd be a little breezy, but yeah, you know, it could be.
- [47:21]
A
And when you're fighting the whole thing, I always found that during Braveheart. Okay, so what is next? So I love this article that you wrote and I love learning. It's so interesting to learn sort of what is the real history behind some of these great shows. I mentioned to you, the thought to reach out to you because I had interviewed the executive director, Trudy Cox, who, you know, about the Gilded Age and that historical time in Newport. What's next for Daisy Prince on these different articles? Is there anything else that sort of catches your, your interest that you might want to write something similar or. I know you're working on a bunch of different things, but oh yeah, I'm.
- [48:02]
B
Working on a few different things. I think the next thing I'm going to write is I went to Africa this summer with my mother and my boys and we had an amazing adventure. And I've been meaning to write this up just because it was so fascinating to go and I'm going to call it travels to Africa with my family and other animals.
- [48:24]
A
I love it.
- [48:25]
B
You know, and just writing about sort of where we are, you know, just it's, it's, it's, it's incredible really to go on that kind of experience. And my mother's 81, so it was my boys who are 11 and 14 and my 81 year old mother and she went ziplining for the, with me. I mean, you know, things like that I think that are really fascinating and fun to do and that's what I want to lean into right now. Just kind of, I think my, my whole thing is you should do at any age just seize it. You know, seize it. Go to Scotland and go visit all these things. Go and see Beely. Go and do it. Just seize it. Because you know, if you can, it's, it's great to travel. Traveling is one of the best things you can do because it teaches you to be out of your comfort zone. It teaches you how to figure it out when you're lost. It teaches you how to be resourceful. So it's, it's a big, that's, that's what I'm doing now. That's my big thing. As I say, I'm, I'm a travel mom. You know, you have soccer moms, stage moms, I'm a travel mom, so.
- [49:20]
A
Well, let me know where you're going, going next. Because I want to be, I mean I, I feel like I'm a travel mom. But to like Hartford Airport to go see Lockhart School, not really. I'd much rather be ziplining. You know, in Tanzania.
- [49:35]
B
That was really fun. I was in Zambia and everything. And otherwise other shows and things like that. I will, I don't know, I'm gonna have to have a deep dive around and see what other things are coming up. I can't wait to see Downton Abbey, the movie. I mean, are you gonna go and see that now?
- [49:48]
A
Yes, I'm looking forward to that. Although I feel like the American mother. I thought she died of cancer or something in one of the last seasons and now she's in the movie. So I don't know, it's almost like a Star wars is someone back. I don't know how they're gonna weave that in or what time period the movie's about, but I am looking forward to that. And I'm looking forward to watching Blood of My Blood because I have not.
- [50:07]
B
You should.
- [50:07]
A
I have not. And doing the full Outlander. Maybe that'll be my. Now that I'm an empty nester, that'll be my new binge series.
- [50:14]
B
You definitely should. You definitely should.
- [50:17]
A
Seven seasons.
- [50:18]
B
You definitely should. And I'm also starting my. Well, I'm sure you know this. I'm starting my substack. I'm taking the digital party and I'm moving it to substack. So that would be a fun adventure to kind of.
- [50:27]
A
Oh, that's great. I did not know that.
- [50:29]
B
Yes. That's my, my, my other plan. And then the only other thing I would just like to mention on your show is that so Simon Fraser, I love it. Married this terrific girl who's amazing called Petra Palumbo, who's also a designer, and she makes really beautiful kind of homewares and things like that. And I just bought some of them and I just thought I would do because they're really pretty and you can get them online. I happen to have seen them at a place called Lepicure east in Bridgehampton. But I think it's really interesting is she lives up there with him and they're raising their family back up in Beaulieu and sort of leaning into their heritage, but in a way that's kind of really fun.
- [51:03]
A
But I can't wait for the substack. Daisy, keep me posted on that. Thanks. And thank you so much for coming to talk about. I mean, I just think it's so, so interesting, but it's also just an excuse to chat with you, so that's always fun.
- [51:15]
B
No, this was really fun. And I hope that I had enough of, you know, the, you know, I really do. Yeah. I love the show and I was rewatching it, so it was a super fun assignment. I mean, getting to rewatch your favorite TV show.
- [51:27]
A
I know, exactly. I love that. It's so good. But thank you so much.
- [51:31]
B
Okay, thanks very much.
- [51:33]
A
A huge thank you to Daisy Prince for joining the podcast. I love spending time with Daisy learning everything behind the Frasiers in Scotland, and I hope that you did, too. To get even more info about the Fraser clan or an even deeper dive on this period of Scottish history, you can go to my website, duologpod.com and subscribe to my substack, where I not only do a deep dive on Scottish history, but I also share some recommendations for great places to visit and to stay in Scotland again. You can find all that out on my website@duologpod.com a big shout out, too, to this week's sponsor, Karun. You must check out their website, www.karoon.com. that's C O R R O O N. They have the most beautiful bags, luggage and travel accessories. And they're generously giving Dulag listeners a special 20% off. So be sure to check them out on their website and use the Duologue promo code to get that special 20% discount. And last but not least, a huge thank you to you, my listeners. I appreciate, we all appreciate here at the podcast all of your support, so, so much and very excited to bring you another episode next week. So until then, this is Leslie, and thank you again for joining Duolog.