Duologue with Leslie Heaney

Episode: "Behind the Kilts: The Real History of Outlander with Daisy Prince"

Date: October 29, 2025
Guests: Leslie Heaney (Host), Daisy Prince (Journalist & Editor)

Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Leslie Heaney invites journalist Daisy Prince to delve into the real-life history behind the Starz phenomenon "Outlander" and its celebrated Fraser clan. Inspired by Daisy’s recent Vogue article and timed with the release of the "Outlander" prequel "Blood of My Blood," the duo unpacks the factual origins of the Frasers, the transformative events of 18th-century Scotland, and the intersection between myth, history, and pop culture. Their witty, dynamic exchange covers everything from clan warfare and Highland mysticism to beheadings, WWII commandoes – and even Russell Crowe’s unexpected Fraser ties.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Enduring Fascination with "Outlander" and the Fraser Mythos

• Leslie notes the widespread obsession with Jamie Fraser and the allure of Highland romance ("We all are captivated by Jamie Fraser and the Fraser clan and, you know, men in kilts. It really has captured our imagination." – Leslie, [01:50])
• Daisy’s entry into Outlander came during long nights awake with her newborn, finding resonance in Claire’s resilience and the series’ historical authenticity.
  • "Claire is a great character because she's independent and she's strong ... She brought with her a level of kind of excellence and cleverness." – Daisy, [02:38]

2. The Historical Roots of the Story: Stuart Dynasty and the Battle of Culloden

• Post-Glorious Revolution Scotland saw deep divides: Protestant vs. Catholic, English Rule vs. Scottish Sovereignty.
• Daisy unpacks how Bonnie Prince Charlie became a figurehead for those seeking a Stuart restoration, leading to the catastrophic Battle of Culloden in 1746.
  • "It was the decimation of Highland culture. I mean, that's what's really interesting to me." – Daisy, [03:32]
• The consequences were dire: forbidden Gaelic, tartan, arms, and a crushed Highland society ([04:28]).

3. From Skirmishes to Diaspora: Culture and Conflict

• English oppression of Scottish clans dates centuries before Culloden, echoing even in pop culture depictions like "Braveheart."
  • "Even now, it's like a marriage where they got together kind of too young...always deciding whether or not to get divorced." – Daisy, [07:40]
• After Culloden, large numbers of Scots were forcibly deported to the Americas, especially the Carolinas and Appalachia, seeding cultural mistrust of centralized power and birthing distinctive Southern/Appalachian traditions in the United States ([08:32], [20:13]).

4. Life in the Scottish Highlands: Paganism, Clan Bonds, and Brutal Justice

• "Outlander" is praised for its accurate portrayal of both the mystical (herbalism, suspicion of witchcraft) and the harsh (draconic punishment, superstitions).
  • "Some poor boy has stolen a bannock or some bread, and he's nailed...to a wooden cart." – Daisy, [13:21]
• Parallels are drawn between accusations of witchcraft and similar patterns seen in places like Salem, MA.

5. The Real Fraser Clan: Origins, Influence, and Notorious Lords

• The Frasers first appear in the historical record circa 1160, rising to prominence through marriage and property accumulation.
• Simon Fraser (Lord Lovat), "The Old Fox," played both sides during the Jacobite uprising and was the last man beheaded in England. He is reputedly the inspiration for the phrase "laughing your head off," having laughed at onlookers during his own execution.
  • "As he was being beheaded ... the stand collapsed, and he started laughing. So it's called, you know, laughing your head off." – Daisy, [17:29]
• The tale continues with descendants’ outreach to the global Scottish diaspora and humorous anecdotes about American Scottish games and invented traditions like "dipping the wick" ([19:05]).

6. Death, Diaspora, and Modern Legacy

• Despite the shattering defeat, clan members survived and dispersed, some reestablishing influence in 19th-century Scotland and abroad:
  • "They were not entirely destroyed ... scattered. Some went to North America after the uprising to the Carolinas and Canada..." – Daisy, [27:30]
• The 20th century saw the rise of WWII hero Simon Fraser ("Shimi Fraser"), lauded by Winston Churchill as "the handsomest man to slit a throat," who led commandos at D-Day with a personal bagpiper ([30:07]).

7. The Aftermath – Suppression and Rebirth of Highland Identity

• Following Culloden, Highland traditions were outlawed (no tartan, Gaelic, or arms – [44:41]).
• Economic and tax changes in the 20th century led to the fragmentation of aristocratic estates like the Frasers’ Beaulieu Castle.
• Modern Lord Lovat (Simon Fraser, 16th Lord Lovat) is active in maintaining clan identity and welcoming Outlander fans – with the caveat that Jamie Fraser is, alas, fictional ([33:12], [34:09]).

8. Unexpected Frasers – Celebrity Connections

• Russell Crowe is a direct descendant of the Old Fox and a friend of the current Lord Lovat, going so far as to borrow a Fraser tie for Wimbledon as a nod to his Scottish roots and rebellion against English tradition.
  • "Russell Crowe…wore a Fraser tie, borrowed from the Lord Lovat … at Wimbledon. So I thought that was a really…" – Daisy, [36:01]

9. "Blood of My Blood": Gritty Realism in the Prequel

• The prequel delves even more deeply into 18th-century brutality, especially childbirth, gender, and class:
  • "There's a lot about the sort of birth and gynecological practices at that time…these, the group of women who are called the Gossips…" – Daisy, [37:07], [38:32]
• Discussion of historic "purity tests," the role of midwives ("howdies") and "gossips," and the pervasive suspicion of women’s sexuality.

10. Reflecting on Modern Scottish Identity and Traditions

• Rise of clan games and the reclamation of Highland culture in the 20th century ([44:58]).
• Diaspora stories: Daisy’s own in-laws (the Chisholms) who migrated from post-Culloden Highlands to London.

11. Lighter Moments: Kilts, Masculinity, and Cultural Customs

• An ongoing, tongue-in-cheek exploration of whether traditional Scots truly skip underwear under kilts (“I would think it'd be a little breezy, but yeah, you know, it could be.” – Daisy, [47:06]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the "Old Fox" and Last Beheading:

  • "As he was being beheaded ... the stand collapsed, and he started laughing. So it's called, you know, laughing your head off." – Daisy, [17:29]

• On Southern/Appalachian Culture:

  • "There's a real sense of the individual, of community ... of all those things ... in Southern and Appalachian culture ... I think it's quite reflective." – Daisy, [20:13]

• On Modern Fraser Connections:

  • "Russell Crowe somehow ... is a descendant of the old Fox ... when he went to Wimbledon this year, wore a Fraser tie, borrowed from the Lord Lovat." – Daisy, [35:09]–[36:01]

• On the Realities of 18th-Century Life:

  • "Life was tough and it was brutal ... how hard disease was, how difficult it was to even get fed, how powerless many people were, not just women ..." – Daisy, [43:20]

• On the Ongoing Allure of Jamie Fraser:

  • "Jamie Fraser, as we've mentioned, unfortunately, is a fictional character. Fortunately, he's a character that we all get to watch. Kilt on, kilt off. You know, I'll take it either way." – Leslie, [15:14]

Important Timestamps

• [02:29] – Daisy on her personal connection to Outlander and Claire’s appeal
• [05:51] – Historical background: Glorious Revolution, Stuart exile, and Bonnie Prince Charlie
• [13:14] – Life in the Highlands: superstition, punishment, and daily brutality
• [17:01] – The colorful, notorious "Old Fox," Lord Lovat/Simon Fraser
• [19:37] – Scottish diaspora and transatlantic clan culture
• [27:30] – Fraser clan survival after Culloden and modern descendants
• [30:07] – WWII hero "Shimi" Fraser and the decline of the family estate
• [36:08] – Russell Crowe's unexpected Fraser connection
• [37:07] – Realism and raw historical detail in "Blood of My Blood," especially around childbirth
• [44:13] – Aftermath of Culloden and suppression of clan identity
• [47:06] – The eternal question: what’s really under the kilt?

Episode Tone & Style

Reflecting Leslie and Daisy’s candid, lively exchange, the episode blends humor, rich historical detail, and personal anecdotes. Daisy’s deep research and journalistic style are woven with Leslie’s warm, inquisitive interview manner, making complex history and surprising trivia both accessible and entertaining.

Conclusion

Whether you’re an Outlander obsessive, a Scottish history buff, or just intrigued by the allure of men in kilts, Daisy and Leslie’s conversation provides a fresh, insightful, and often funny look at the real stories woven through the fabric of Scotland’s most famous fictional saga. The legacy of the Fraser clan—both real and imagined—continues to captivate, inspire, and surprise.

Recommended for:

• Fans of Outlander
• Lovers of Scottish history and culture
• Anyone curious about the intersection of myth, history, and media phenomenon

For more history, travel tips, and behind-the-scenes content, check out Leslie’s substack and website at duologpod.com.