← Duologue with Leslie Heaney
Duologue with Leslie Heaney
Beyond Blue and White: The Untold Story of Delftware with Genevieve Wheeler Brown
00:59:34
Five years ago, Genevieve "Veve" Wheeler Brown flipped over a jug and found a woman's signature. What followed was a five-year quest across three continents — and a book. In this episode, Leslie sits down with her longtime friend and author of Beyond...
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- [00:03]
A
Hey, everybody, this is Leslie, and you're listening to Duologue with Leslie Heaney. One of the things that I have truly loved about hosting a podcast is having the opportunity to interview friends of mine and learn more about their professional lives and expertise. And one of these friends is this week's guest, Genevieve or Vivi Wheeler Brown. Vivi is an expert in decorative arts. After years at Christie's auction house and the founder of her own art advisory firm. Her discovery of a mystery collection of delftware in a cabinet at the National Society of Colonial Danes headquarters led her in a five year quest to uncover the who, why, what, and where behind this incredible delftware collection. Her journey takes us from the Netherlands in the 1600s to the gilded Age in New York in the late 19th century all the way to present day. Her quest and amazing research culminated with her writing of this fantastic book, Beyond Blue and the Hidden History of Delftware and the Woman behind the Iconic Ceramic. In this episode, Vivi and I explore the untold story of women who were cultural and business leaders, artists and collectors from the mid-1600s all the way to today. It's an inspiring conversation. It's the perfect listen to end Women's History Month, if I do say so myself. Vivi is fascinating and it's an episode that you won't want to miss. So with that, here is Genevieve Wheeler Brown. I mean, this is like, it's the best way to start my. My weekend. I must tell you, getting to see.
- [01:32]
B
Oh, my friend, I can't. I know. It's so great to be with you.
- [01:36]
A
I know. I. For listeners. Vivi and I first met when we were pregnant with our daughters. That's right. Who were born, I think, four or five days apart. And they'll be 21. Not to date us, but they'll be 21 in October, which is.
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B
Oh, my goodness. I know. We gotta get planning. This is not a big deal. Or maybe they don't want us actually.
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A
Right.
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B
Bye.
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A
I think that's probably more likely. Maybe you and I could just invite them for a drink and ask them to buy. But yeah, the girls did that. They had many a birthday, joint birthday together. We orchestrated a barn themed birthday party.
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B
Oh, my gosh. That's right. With live animals.
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A
With live animals in a ballroom of a club that we will not disclose because it was very nice that they allowed us. And watching, like a baby goat try to get traction on a waxed floor was really something else, but we did it. And for listeners, you know, we're going beyond the blue and white and I.
- [02:34]
B
That's right. We're doing the deep dive.
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A
You know, it is Women's History Month, which is why I'm so excited to be.
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B
Yeah, right. And I can't. I can't imagine. I mean, the need for engaging and inspiring stories about women. I mean, frankly. Right. Has never been greater. Right.
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A
Yeah. And you've sort of uncovered. You know, it's not just. You know, what's so fascinating is through this collection and learning more about the journey of this particular collection of delftware, you were able to unearth these incredibly strong women leaders, patrons, collectors, businesswomen from the 1600s all the way up until the present day. So without further ado, I want to. Let's kick it off. Telling. Tell us sort of how you discovered this collection and began this journey with this collection of delftware.
- [03:27]
B
Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you, Leslie, so much for having me. This is such a pleasure to be with you, my friend. And, yeah, it was a journey that. I mean, it. It was over for me personally. It was five years researching here in America, but also in England and, of course, the Netherlands. But the story actually began much closer to home in Manhattan, just a few blocks away from where I live. And it was actually started with something really quite small, which was a blue and white jug, and it was sitting in a corner behind some chargers on a quiet shelf. But it was this small object that opened a larger story of hidden histories of women whose influence have really been long overlooked. So it was the summer of 2019, and I got a phone call from the head of the Arts and Collections Committee of a women's group that was founded during the Gilded Age. And that's the National Society of Colonial Dames. It was out of the blue, and they wanted me to come and take a look.
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A
Sorry, be out of the blue?
- [04:33]
B
No, literally, I was receiving, like, numerous phone calls, and they. They wanted me to see what was really a small, small part of their kind of an exquisite collection. And I really thought I hit it over, and what I thought was really going to be a handful of objects, maybe a few vases. Right. A few chargers or plates. What it was was over 75 pieces of rare 17th and 18th century Dutch Delftware. I mean, it's. This is an incredibly unique cache hidden in an upper floor of a building on the Upper east side. So it was. And that's.
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A
Did you know that immediately when you saw it? Was it like, you know, do you.
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B
Yeah, it was.
- [05:12]
A
Yeah. This was not the Holy Grail adelpho for you there. Because if I recall from the book that you sort of. Someone was like, would you come take a look at this? We're not quite sure what this is. And then you. As you said, you went up to this. It was like, in the back of a cabinet, and it's all this very. Just unique collection. You immediately were like, wow, this is. This is really something.
- [05:32]
B
Yeah. I mean, it just opened a door. I mean, that's what happened. You look at it and you're like, okay, who? What? When, Where, Why? How? I mean, what. You know, what is the story like? Anyone, you know, from, you know, in the auction world knows that, you know, a collection is a story, and a collection represents a person or people who put it together. So, I mean, that's. You know, it's. You know, you look at the beauty of an object, but then you're like, wait, this is only half of the story. So it becomes really a detective, you know, story as well, because you have to unwind the story through archives, through documents, through, you know, looking for similar, you know, similar pieces in museums and. And then just digging. And.
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A
So was that part of kind of the commission of the work? I feel like there was a moment when you.
- [06:22]
B
No. So this is what. Basically, I was there, you know. No, then I was. When I said, you know, look, this is a fantastic collection. And they said, well, would you be interested in. In creating a lecture based on it? And that lecture that I gave during COVID was seen by a literary agent. And that literary agent said, look, you know, what you have here is not just a lecture. This could be a book. And I said, that's really interesting. So this book is also a story of. Of Serendipity.
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A
You know, I think there was a part where you flipped over a jug. I think it was a jug that had, you know, the initials of someone. I think this was gv.
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B
Gertrude Verstella. Yeah, the gvs.
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A
I was gonna let you do that.
- [07:09]
B
Yeah.
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A
Let you say that because I was a little.
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B
Yeah, no, and literally, I was like, oh, I'm so great with languages.
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A
Dutch.
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B
No, Dutch is like a singular. Yeah, I'm working on it, though.
- [07:20]
A
Yeah. Very impressive. And then Ryan, right, was a woman. So I think that was. Wasn't that sort of the hook for you and wanting to. For the book was that, you know, you found this jug, like, I wonder whose initials the. You know, these are. And then, oh, wait, this is not a man who. The majority of Delft Potters were. This is a woman. And that. That Really, I think took you into a, you know.
- [07:45]
B
Yeah, it takes, it takes you by surprise because just so few women are noted in the decorative arts pre modern, you know, so, you know, 15, you know, 16th, 17th, 18th, 18th century. And most of the decorative arts, you know, aren't including delftware, aren't signed, you know, by the, you know, the potters or the. Or the painters. So coming across something like this was. Was really made me question. And then. Yeah, so you're stepping back and saying, okay, there's this one woman. Are there more? So that opens the door and.
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A
Yeah, just understanding how unique that is. And for people who are not as familiar with delftware, what it is, why it, you know, why it matters.
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B
Right.
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A
For centuries. Will you give us a little. A little background?
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B
Sure.
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A
A little.
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B
Yeah.
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A
About it.
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B
I mean, it's like. So when I say the word delftware, a lot of things will probably come to mind. You might think of those small square, you know, Dutch tiles that are about that big. Or you might think of a plate, you know, one of those beautiful plates with flowers or birds. Or maybe you'll think of those incredible tulip towers, those pyramids with the little spouts.
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A
Will you give that a whirl on the pronunciation?
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B
Oh, my gosh.
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A
Or something?
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B
Yeah, they're phenomenal. And they weren't just for tulips. They were made in the late 1600s, was when the form was developed, and they were made for all flowers, you know. But delphoir is actually a lot, lot more than in. Than just that. So basically, one way to look at it is there are three main kinds of ceramics in the world. There's porcelain, of course, there's stoneware, and then there's earthenware. And earthenware is probably oldest form of ceramic that was made. It dates from. They started producing it maybe 20,000 years ago. It has sort of buff or, you know, reddish clay. And delftware is tin glazed earthenware. So which is to say it was made in the technique that developed in the Middle east by the 9th century. And it's a way for potters without access to Chinese white clay to make something that imitates it. Right. So you're taking buff earthenware and you're dipping it in a white glaze. And so then all of a sudden it looks, you know, luminous and non porous. And then they would paint cobalt over it to imitate Chinese porcelain.
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A
And it was created mostly manufactured in the town of Delta.
- [10:19]
B
So it's named. Yeah. After the town where it Was made specifically from about 1620 to 1850. Very short period. That's it. But why it matters, you have to set the scene. Because this. This period of 1620 to the, you know, to the late 18th century was the Dutch golden age. So this is the same time as Vermeer, you know, Rembrandt and then amazing female artists like Rachel Reusch. And it was an incredibly. I mean, this was. The Dutch Republic was an economic powerhouse. I mean, they were rich in trade, rich in art. And what was driving this was the Dutch East India Company. And they were. Yeah. And that was founded in 1602. So they're. They're. I mean, it's just the. The meaning. The first sort of massive global enterprise. And they were bringing back, I mean, everything from, you know, tea, spices, lacquer, but also porcelain from China into Europe. And so in the mid-1600s, you know, there's a. A dynastic shift in China and civil war. And during this period, the trades was severely crippled. And so what were formerly maybe a quarter of a million of pieces of porcelain that were being brought to Europe by the Dutch becomes, like, mere trickle. So you have this incredible need and, you know, you know, China, Chinese porcelain is just, you know, the most coveted, you know, rare, you know, products in Europe. But then all of a sudden, your source dries up, right? So these small. The small town of Delft, a group of potters sat down and they said, hey, well, if you can't beat them, join them. Maybe we can make copies. So they started making their own version of Chinese porcelain. And they did a really good job because sometimes you can't tell the difference. But then quickly Delftware evolves into its own art form. So begins as imitative, and then they're off to the races, creating. Yeah, so that's the story.
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A
The Dutch is this powerhouse, Right. During the time. I mean, they.
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B
Oh, my God.
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A
Actually were the ones who came and settled New York. Right. I mean. So.
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B
Oh, yes.
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A
Connection between, you know, Amsterdam, New Amsterdam. Right. And I, you know, I think people think of, you know, the English, but it was really the Dutch.
- [12:50]
B
Yeah, People forget. Yeah. We're like. Yeah, we're first. We're first Dutch. One of the amazing things about the Dutch Republic is that it was a place of refuge for people. Whether it was, you know, for your religious reasons or, you know, persecution or philosophical scholars, they all would come. The Dutch Republic was a place of refuge. And so you could. Whether you were a Huguenot or a pilgrim, you could come to the Dutch Republic. And find, you know, and find a home. They had an open. It was, in its way, a tolerant society that allowed, you know, people in need to come. So it was, it created an environment like this, vibrant environment as a result.
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A
Well, not to touch on a political topic, but I think there was one part that I read in the book about just sort of, you know, one of the ways that they, they, they found great strength was in having different immigrants come. You know, whether it was exactly coming there. Right. And bringing their different skill sets. And, and we really attribute.
- [13:54]
B
Yeah. And. Yeah. Couldn't be more relevant today. I mean, it was the key. One of the key factors of the Dutch Republic, and frankly, it's the key factor of the United States. You know, we drew that, you know, that foundation from the Dutch and from other societies that embraced, you know, immigration.
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A
And then the Dutch also had a really different attitude toward women compared to other European countries. And I. Oh, yes. I don't want to. I don't want to.
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B
The shock and horror of. Yeah. European travel writers. It's. It's pretty darn funny, actually. When you read these ledgers, they're like, oh, my goodness, a girl made fun of her brother.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, or, or a girl was
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A
in school with her brother.
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B
Yeah. Oh, my God. A girl.
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A
You know, financial does math. Yeah, exactly. So I, I think you and I were talking a little bit before we started. I was just saying to you that, you know, you know, I don't know what the chicken and egg is of that, but that there was this big event that happened right, in Delft that wiped out part of the population. And you're going to speak to this because I don't want to get it wrong.
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B
Sure, yeah. The Delft Thunderclass.
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A
Yeah. It also sort of opened up, you know, through that, you know, you lost a lot of people, a lot of men that were manuf, you know, producing Delft, where. And then there's this void and who can fill the void but the women there and then the women coming in to assume that role. They sort of.
- [15:23]
B
Well, there's. Yeah, there. You're right, there's this. There's a population disparity in the Dutch Republic. Right. I mean, there was the Thunderclap, but even, even worse was the Dutch East India Company, because, I mean, there are some pretty amazing stats on, I mean, this was one of the most successful companies in, like, in the history of, you know, business. But on any of their voyages, I mean, they know that, you know, for example, one, you know, of the. Of the residents of the town of Delft, say, if sick of the 6,000, was it the 8,000 men who went abroad on these trade voyages? Yeah, something like. Only like, you know, four or 5,000 would return. And then the stats are even worse for the soldiers that went. So you had. Across the board, across the Dutch Republic, there were more women than men. So women had to step up. And they didn't just step up, they expanded businesses. It was. It was amazing. But they came to the table, though, with an incredible and unique situation because the Dutch, you know, women were able to run businesses. And it wasn't just elf ware. It was many different forms of business in the Dutch Republic. And it was really because of their legal rights, their education, and then just the, as you mentioned, the sheer necessity they had, you know, a Dutch. A Dutch girl could inherit equally as her brother. Equally. That blew the British mind. They're like, what do you mean? That's like, you know, they had. Yeah, no primogenitor. No, they had. It was. It was a. Like a straight cut. And they even had, you know, the city of Dell, for example, had its own offices to help implement that specific job, you know, if you're, you know, if your parents died. So the. Add to that, you know, widespread education. Girls and boys in school together from, you know, talk about, you know, New York City and Pre K. I mean, the Dutch had that in 1605. So they were together. I mean, they were learning. Not just, you know, writing and arithmetic, if you can wait. I mean, just incredibly, girls were also taught bookkeeping. This is a part of standard. So they had girls and boys. When I was reading financial literacy, all
- [17:49]
A
this stuff, I was like, I wish I had gone to school. Like, I need him. I know.
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B
So now all of a sudden. Yeah, like the World Bank. I mean, everyone wants to start programs for women. I mean, guilt and guilty is charged. Do I know as much? No, I'm like, I. But no. So you were taught.
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A
Right. There was a guild that kind of like a master guild that was sort of. Kind of the arbiter of the producers of Delftware.
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B
Right? Yeah. The Guild of St. Luke. Yeah. So each major city would have its
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A
guild and women, if they were widows, as being a widow, they would inherit their husband's business, which is also kind of unheard of. Right. They would take over.
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B
Oh, yeah, yeah. You could immediately pivot. Yeah.
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A
And the guild would sort of say, you know what? Your husband was a master. He was a member of the guild and was a master potter. We're just going to let you Take over kind of his master, I think.
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B
Yeah, they had. And it was interesting because, I mean, ironically, they established this rule in 1654. This like the. I think it was in the spring of 1654, saying, if your husband dies, don't worry about it. We'll just immediately shift the business, you know, operations to your name. No questions asked, no master's test. This is business. We don't want, you know, six months down in production. We want your business to continue. But I think in having that rule, you're kind of also revealing that the women were partners all along.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So they're sort of admitting that, you know, ladies, this is. Yeah, we understand, you know, we don't want, you know, and your. Your businesses are the livelihood for families. I mean, there are like at least 30 to 50 workers in each of these potteries and each pottery producing more than a quarter of a million pieces a year. I mean, it's huge. And they're shipping worldwide. So, you know, they did. They had no interest in curtailing business. And women were just, you know, this is. This was no, nothing special. They were, you know, a part of that, you know, worldwide economy.
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A
But you're so right that they. The women were. You researched this yourself in your book. And I had the benefit of only learning about it might be reading that. But the women were. Were working alongside their husband. That's why it was sort of the cases of seamless, you know, transition from the husband died into when they took over. Other thing just very interesting for people who are interested in art history, is that Johannes Vermeer was a. Was head of one of these guilds, one of these elfware guilds. Right. Even though he's a paper doing all these.
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B
Yeah, he was the. One of the. The co. You know, they called him the headman. And while he was headman in 1671, he admitted one of his neighbors actually, who was a girl he grew up with, she was five years older than he, and her name was Barbara Rodeville. And Barbara, she was the, you know, a golden age girl. She grew up in Delft. She married. She had, you know, she married a notary, actually. She had several children. She was widowed. She survives the thunderclap, as you mentioned, that. That incredible event that happens in Delft, because Delft is known for basically three things. They're known for Vermeer, clearly, they're known for Delfware, but also this thunderclap, which was when £100,000 of gunpowder ignited in a secret storage under Delft, and it created the. The. It was the biggest explosion, man made explosion in the world up to that time. And they could hear it. They apparently heard, they know from. From, you know, descriptions from the period that a sonic boom was heard 70 miles away. So this incinerated a third of Delft. And but this one woman, Barbara Rodeville, she survives, she rebuilds and she starts her own pottery, which is really incredible. So, you know, it's. And then, you know it.
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A
And it continued with the three bells. Right. Which is really.
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B
She's. Three bells. She is.
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A
Three bell bells and that she, you know, she died, I think in the early 18th century. Right, correct.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And then she then. But. But the three bells would go on to endure for another.
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B
Oh yeah, it's. Yeah. Her legacy. Yeah. Continued like a massively successful business and. Yeah, it was, yeah. And she was one of the longest owners, I mean, of, you know, of she. For almost 30 years she, you know, owned and basically effectively ran this business.
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A
Well, you know, you were talking about, you know, I always sort of correlated the number of women running and owning these businesses to this thunderclap. Right. I didn't think about it until you just mentioned earlier that it was also because all these men were dying like on boats all over the world. Right. When they're shipping everything.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But you know, in terms of women in the workforce, generally Dutch women at that time, which is obviously unheard of in the rest of Europe. Right. Is that a quarter?
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B
Yeah, they just didn't have. There just weren't the corollaries of education or I mean, even. It's really interesting because Benjamin Franklin in the 1780s, he writes, you know, American women too should like the Dutch, you know, like we should maybe, you know, scroll back on the, you know, dancing and needlepoint, you know, love needlepoint, by the way, but, but like learn French,
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A
learn music and be able to just sort of enjoy the, you know, needlepoint, sort of the arts of women. I don't know, the art.
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B
Right. The. I think he was concerned, yeah. The welfare, because he's, you know, it's. He's. I think he's concerned about widowhood, he's concerned about the welfare and he had daughters. He was like, well, what's going to happen? And you know, and he called them the crafty men. I think he thought that, you know, people would, you know, pray, you know, that, that, that if women were armed with knowledge that they could, you know, they could protect themselves.
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A
Yeah, well, I mean that was, that was very progressive, obviously in 1780. But as, as you just pointed out, like for the Dutch. They'd been doing this a lot, and it was one at a long time. One in five. Did you say potter? Pottery makers. Delftware pottery makers. From the mid 17. So mid 1600s to the mid 1800s. Were women.
- [24:25]
B
Correct? Yeah. I mean, that's incredible if you look at it. And that's just the listed names of owners. I mean, that's, that's just a stat. So it can only be more, you know, in terms of involvement, total involvement, because you had to register as an owner for a pottery. So it's a listing. But, you know, what were the other roles? And, you know, it's my. I'm often asked, you know. Well, there were there female painters in Delf Ware, and we just don't know yet because they often. They didn't sign their works. The painter didn't sign their works usually. So we don't know.
- [25:01]
A
Yeah, you. You mentioned that like that. One of the things that kind of got you started when you discovered the collection was finding the initials jvs. You didn't know if those were male or female or what. And then you discovered it was a woman. And then that was even more intriguing because not many people signed their pieces.
- [25:18]
B
No, exactly. They had. Yeah. Or. Yeah, it's. It's. Yeah, it just opens the door to, you know, to finding out more.
- [25:27]
A
Finding out more. And so you. So we talked about Barbara Rodeville. Right. How did I do on that? How was that?
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B
You're pretty darn good. Look at that.
- [25:36]
A
And then another woman that really captured your attention. Right. That, that this collection, these pieces kind of flew to. Right. Is this Johanna van der Hol? See that there?
- [25:48]
B
Oh, maybe you got it.
- [25:49]
A
Yeah. Tell us about her. Because she was involved with the Greek A, which was this.
- [25:54]
B
Yeah, she is high end. Phenomenal. Yeah, she is phenomenal. And you know, it's. What's incredible is that she's. And ironically, she was the daughter of one of the Dutch Republic's greatest gunpowder makers. So she was very wealthy. But she marries the son, the scion of the Greek A. And this is the firm that makes those incredible tulip towers for Queen Mary ii. So she marries the son, but then. And we don't know how or why, but her husband dies maybe two or three years after they're married. She's 35 years old, no children yet, but she assumes ownership of the Greek A. You know, this is like sort of debatably the most important business of Delftware. And so she. She has this moment, you know, does she pursue this? Does she not? So but she does. And then she pivotally moves delftware into its next, like, in the most incredible direction. You know, developing colors, gilding. I talk about it in the book. But the famous, you know, black delftware. And there's a reason. Another question I get is, you know, why blue and white? Well, there's so much blue and white ceramics in the world, whether it's Chinese porcelain or. No, really Portuguese, you know, Italian in there. Why blue and white? Well, because blue, the cobalt is really. It's the. You know, the 27th element is really one of the strongest materials in the world. It can withstand heat. It's like the ultimate material that's so stable. It's so stable that we use it today to stabilize lithium batteries, and they use it in aerospace engineering to strengthen metal. So think about it. It's being used on ceramics because it's so reliable. This is a material, you know, like when you paint it.
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A
So, you know, I interest you because I'm just. Yeah. I've always thought his cobalt blue is, like, just a shade. Like you would say, you know, cornflower blue. Is a cornflower blue.
- [28:09]
B
Yes.
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A
Whatever.
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B
No, you're right.
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A
Shades of blue, powder blue, whatever. I just never. But you're right, it is. Their cobalt is in batteries, and so it's actually more the material than it is the color. Right. But you also. This is the explore, too. And I interviewed Nicholas Varney. He's a jewelry designer, and he talks a lot about color and the power of color.
- [28:33]
B
Yes. Oh, my gosh. That's a great subject.
- [28:35]
A
With blue. Oh, blue. Right. The. Just how. How blue makes people feel. Why?
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B
Psychological.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's the perennial. Yeah. And it's. Yeah. I mean, everyone from, like, Goethe to. I mean, they talk about the entrancing power, and it is. I mean, it's. You know, the Egyptians, they thought it had, you know, mythical. It had mystic, you know, powers. So they would depict gods with blue hair because it was, you know, the embodiment of power. And. And it's a perennial shape, like the shades of blue and white and blue itself. You know, it's a shade that we really. It's hard to walk away from.
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A
Right.
- [29:14]
B
It draws you in.
- [29:16]
A
So we. We're talking. And we're just talking about this. I don't know if it's Johanna or Joanna. I mean, I. I guess it's Joanna.
- [29:24]
B
I think it would. It would be if she were here
- [29:29]
A
looking at him like, wait a minute. I'm saying I'm doing a very Soft gay there, but maybe, but so she was, you know, a lot of the, the Delft word that was coming out of Greek A, as you mentioned, was going. Being, you know, going off to, to monarchs throughout Europe. And one of the great patrons of Delft, known as the Queen of Blue and White, was Queen Mary ii. And she really took.
- [29:53]
B
Oh, yes.
- [29:54]
A
To a whole new level. Can you talk about, like, let's talk about the time period who she married, which is really how she got access or I think to Delftware, how that really opened up her. Her world and then how she sort of wove it into all of her entertaining and, you know, sort of.
- [30:12]
B
She was a powerhouse, you know, over Europe because, yeah, the story of Delftware and women, you know, it's. It wasn't just the, you know, the owners of the potteries, it was also the patrons. And Mary was considered the patron of, of delftware, you know, shaping forms and styles and popularity. But yeah, so she was an English princess, though, who. So she was. And, and I love, I love this fact. So when she was 5 years old, well, she's the, the granddaughter of, of King Charles the First, who was an amazing art collector and her father was James, Duke of York. So. But when Mary was five years old, her father gave the executive order to, to take over this small town, you know, New Amsterdam. And so there we have it. So, yeah, when Mary's five years old, her father changes New Amsterdam to New York and the name sticks. So but she's sent off. When she's 15 years old, she's married off by James to her cousin William, who's, you know, stadtholder of the Dutch Republic. So she moves to the Dutch Republic where she falls in love. She literally falls in love with the Dutch, you know, itself, but also its ceramics. So when nobody wants James, her father, to be king, the aristocrats or the, you know, the public. So they invite William and Mary to come back from the Dutch Republic to assume co. Monarch, you know, ship, which is truly incredible. It's unheard of. Yeah. So it's. So they return and she brings that Delfware back with her and that popularity, including her, I mean, her number one designing, you know, best friend, Daniel Moreau, who was a French Huguenot, who was the. Who was a designer at Versailles. And in his infinite non. Wisdom, Louis XIV basically kicked out all of the Protestants in France. They were known as the Huguenots. And so which was a huge vacuum again of intellectuals and artists. And Moreau, like the Pilgrims, like many found Refuge in the Dutch Republic. But the Dutch. I mean, French style. I mean, that's, you know, that was. That was the apex of. Of 17th century and 18th century Interior design and decorative arts. So William and Mary said, you know, come with us, and they hired him to do. To do their, you know, all of their homes in the Dutch Republic. And then they brought him to England to continue the work. So they were the same age. So he's a young designer. It would be like, I've taken Miles Red with me. You know, I'm like. I'm like, I. You're coming with me, Guy. And so we're gonna redo my. We're gonna redo this horrendous castle that I haven't seen in a few years. And that was Hampton Court.
- [33:23]
A
And then. And then does Hampton Court then evolve into what is today Kensington palace? Or am I confused?
- [33:28]
B
So. No, two different locations. So they. Yeah, they also were doing their own thing. They really. Yeah, they did not want to live in, you know, in the city of London. It was smoky. It was decrepit. The palace in the city, which no longer exists, was just not. Not of interest to them. So they purchase a private property which becomes Kensington Palace. So that's the birth of Kensington Palace. It was. It was their home away from the. The government, you know, from Parliament. So they built. So they basically. Yeah, renovate that.
- [34:06]
A
What is Hetloo? Hetlu is the. Then that's the other castle.
- [34:10]
B
So Het Lou is fascinating, and I really like. I recommend anyone who's going to the Dutch Republic. You know, there are a couple of things. There's. There's this incredible modernist museum called the Kroller Muller, which is outside of Amsterdam. That's a whole other story with an incredible Van Gogh collection. But there's also.
- [34:29]
A
I'm gonna have you give all the secret spots in.
- [34:31]
B
In a. Oh, yeah, we did. We have got to do it.
- [34:34]
A
All my people subscribe, so they get.
- [34:36]
B
Oh, my God.
- [34:37]
A
To get all the secret hot spots. Tv. But. But.
- [34:41]
B
But this is. Yeah, I mean, Amsterdam is hot. It's like. Yeah, it's quite hot, but there's so much more, like, amazing contemporary art, amazing, you know, modernist. But there's also. What's really. It's like the Dutch Versailles. And the Dutch Versailles was called Hetloo. And it was this gorgeous hunting lodge, you know, summer residence. It's about an hour, you know, an hour or two drive from Amsterdam. And Moreau does. You know, they do an amazing. Moreau does an amazing design for the interiors, has gardens. I Mean, it's. It's phenomenal. And so that's the beginning of their design relationship. And then he comes with them. When that's done, they actually, you know, she moves to England and starts all over again with them and creates. Yeah. This.
- [35:33]
A
At the Water Gallery.
- [35:35]
B
Water Gallery together. Oh, yeah. So she basically, you know, she has. Yeah. So she inherits, like, the, you know, the also decrepit Hampton Court. And she's like, okay, you know, Christopher Wren, you know, the preeminent architect of, you know, like, you. I want you to start working on this, you know, on Hampton Court. And while we're at it, though, I'm going to move into this beautiful. Well, I mean, it was Henry VII's, one of his boathouses. It was a boathouse on the Thames at Hampton Court. But she transforms it into this jewel
- [36:07]
A
box retreat with Daniel Moreau. Like, with.
- [36:10]
B
With Daniel.
- [36:11]
A
With our miles.
- [36:12]
B
Yeah. So she puts together this team of. I mean, it really would have been really the only. The best of the best, which was Christopher Wren, Daniel Moreau doing the interiors. Grinling Gibbons, who is this incredible carver doing, you know, creating surrounds for mantelpieces and, you know, over mantels. I mean, just the. This is the pinnacle of decorative arts in the late 17th century. And so they create this Maison de Plaisir, which is where she and her, you know, her court would, I mean, intimate. It's like a little. Little house. Little house of pleasure. Yeah. And so. But everything was blue and white. So this was like a. It was a blue and white folly. And so where she could live and she could spy on the construction of. On Hampton Court.
- [37:01]
A
Yeah. I wanted that. You were mentioning sort of that they go back, William and Mary. I'm sort of stepping back for a second and to co. Reign. And do you think that, you know, it just strikes me that there might not be many other men in Europe who would be willing to co. Reign with their wife and that he might, being a Dutchman, just sort of have a different perspective.
- [37:23]
B
Well, they were also like, the Dutch were hated by the English. I mean, this was like their rival. Can you imagine? You're like, okay, well, you know, Mary provides legitimacy to the rain, you know, as they. I mean, unheard of, you know, get rid of her father who flees to France. And how do you embrace a Dutch prince, you know, as your king? So it had to be a co. You know, a co rule.
- [37:50]
A
I see.
- [37:52]
B
And the delfware that's produced, so they basically, they start producing gorgeous del. Pieces of delftware that almost act as. So Delft becomes not just a signifier of wealth and prestige, it's also a political. It has a political role because it's, you know, they're creating these works of art that incorporate, you know, English and Dutch forms.
- [38:15]
A
Is it because of what, Everything?
- [38:17]
B
The forms, yeah. The. The motifs, the. And they were given to. They were given to, you know, members of court, you know, as diplomatic gifts or, you know, gifts of, you know, for, you know, for allegiance to William and Mary. So you have this dissemination of, like, gorgeous pieces that are being made and sent out. But. But the greatest pieces were made for the Water Gallery, and the few that remain are at Hampton Court to this day. But that's amazing.
- [38:48]
A
Oh, so you can go to Hampton Court and see.
- [38:51]
B
You can see them. So when she dies. So Mary dies of. I mean, she's not. My gosh, is she maybe 35 years old when she gets, you know, smallpox and, you know, she dies quickly. And then William, within two years, he's completely removed the Water Gallery. And we don't know why, but he's basically. It may have simply been that he was like. He. Some people say it's like he wanted a clear view from. From Hampton Court to the Thames. But you kind of have to ask, like, how, you know, why would you completely remove the very vestiges of your. And ship out, you know, all of her, you know, ceramics around the world, you know, basically erasing her legacy in many ways. Right.
- [39:42]
A
That's another memory of her. And he was. And he was.
- [39:45]
B
Yeah, we just don't know.
- [39:48]
A
That's so fascinating. I mean, as you said, sort of that's what's so for you in your work, like discovering these objects and objects and then asking like, you know, the who, what, why, when, where. But so Mary dies, right, London, in the 18th century. There's this craze around blue and white and around China. People were stealing china. Right. When women stealing china was a big thing.
- [40:10]
B
Yeah, it was interesting. Yeah. Collecting ceramics was hugely popular. I mean, this is where the birth of Christie's and Sotheby's in the 18th century, like, women were. It was, you know, it was a sporting art, you know, of, you know, heading to auctions to, you know, bid on. On ceramics. There were lots of, you know, the. The china. China women were the dealers. Women were dealers. It was very socially acceptable to. To shop for china. It was. And in a. In a.
- [40:40]
A
More.
- [40:40]
B
Yeah. In the English society where, you know, women's freedom was. Was somewhat limited, but it was seen as it was appropriate To. To, you know, to. To go shopping for China.
- [40:52]
A
The legacy of Mary. Do you think just sort of her being seen as the kind of.
- [40:57]
B
That's a great question. I think maybe the Demet. Like arts that are like, you know, domestic adjacent were more acceptable. Right. So they're not going necessarily, you know, but they were attending auctions and there were great collectors, you know, in the 18th century.
- [41:13]
A
So you're seeing, you know, the first. You're seeing Christie's and Sotheby's. Right. The rise of the auction house. During this time, you're seeing the emergence of Delftware tiles. Right, People.
- [41:23]
B
Well, no, the tiles were from. So, yeah, Dutch tiles were in development all along, you know, from the very beginning, you know. Yeah.
- [41:34]
A
London, during that time. Or maybe. I don't know how I have made a note.
- [41:38]
B
Oh, no, no. You know, no tiles. Tile and no. Tiles are fantastic. And they are. I mean, they. And what's interesting is that they're often called Delft tiles, but actually only a fraction of Dutch of tiles, blue and white tiles, were made in Delft. It was really. I mean, they were. The major centers were outside of Amsterdam and Mockam and throughout the countryside. And they were creating. I mean, there were hundreds of millions of tiles exported from the 1600s through the 19th century. So, yeah, that was just an explosive market. And so. And we see the shards to this day. You know, you dig up a building in New York and they're there. It's just. Yeah. Is that right?
- [42:23]
A
Everywhere? All right, well, let's. Let's jump to the US For a second. Right. We talked about the Dutch, you know, settling New Amsterdam that later became New York. And the. In the late 19th century, we see Delft mania emerge again or Chinamania. And we talked.
- [42:39]
B
Yeah.
- [42:39]
A
Talked about women collecting and then being at the forefront there.
- [42:42]
B
It's this boomerang. You'd have these boomerangs every century, you know, and, you know, by this time, the Delft potteries had all closed. You know, they had all folded. So this is collecting of the old Delft that becomes so.
- [42:59]
A
Okay. And then, you know, the New York Historical Society emerges.
- [43:06]
B
First museum. Right. The first groups of museums that are being in the United States. It's really interesting.
- [43:11]
A
Are coming together. Right. The Met at that time is coming together, I think 19th century, the Whitney.
- [43:17]
B
But yeah, but it'll. The. Yeah, it's interesting because, yeah, women were not invited to. To. To join. To be involved in the boards in the New York museums. Not until. I think it's more like 19 by 1930 or 1940. So you have, you have the, like the involvement of women is not. But at the same time, in the 19th century, you have this incredible growth in initiatives that are being propelled by women. So including, you know, we were, you know, we're. We're on the, you know, we're in our 250th anniversary, you know, right now in the United States. But the, you know, the centennial in 1876 was huge. It was massive. And for that, you know, Benjamin Franklin's great granddaughter oversaw what was called the women's. The women's pavilion there. I mean, this was the centennial fair. And Philadelphia was sort of pivotal to 1876 in America. And, you know, more than 10 million people visited this first American World's Fair. But I bring it up because it was. It's an example of all the initiatives that were. Women were assuming leadership in the United States. And so, so things like the colonial dames came out of this, you know, propel, you know, women assuming roles, you know, and, you know, they're in cultural life. So it's. It was part that. That narrative for women.
- [44:54]
A
I love that that the sort of founder of the. This centennial or the woman who's propelling this centennial exhibition. Right. Or Women's Pavilion in Philadelphia, but also
- [45:06]
B
the entire centennial, I mean, she's attributed as really being one of the, like, the great forces, but yeah.
- [45:13]
A
Behind it. And she was Elizabeth Gillespie. Right. And I love that she's Franklin's great granddaughter because you were talking earlier about how he was such a proponent of the Dutch. Yeah.
- [45:24]
B
Yep.
- [45:25]
A
And they had the Dutch having women be involved in. In public life and. And in. And in business. So Elizabeth Gillespie, tell us about that. You know, you mentioned a little bit about it. And then Elizabeth Colt, too, was sort of the.
- [45:38]
B
Oh, yeah. So she puts together literally this team of like, the who's who of powerful women in the United States, and they put together their. Their pavilion. Elizabeth Colt other. I mean, she's from. She was the widow of the cult. You know, pistol. You know, the Colt firearms.
- [45:56]
A
Yeah, it's Colt.45. Right. Or is it exactly here? No, the firearms. Exactly.
- [46:02]
B
That's right. I'm sure you. But no, she was. Samuel Colt actually dies when Elizabeth is in her 30s. So she basically owns and assumes controlling interests of Colt all during the Civil War. And that's pretty incredible. I mean, it's probably one of the driving force of the Union. The Union supplies during the Civil War. And she's the woman. But she is also a huge art collector and yes. And she's another great leader, you know, founding initiatives, founding art schools, founding, you know, and she was also a part of this group that founds the Dames and which leads to this collection and this museum that. So it's, you know, around 18, in the 1890s, you have Mrs. Cornelius Vanderbilt, you have missed Mrs. J.P. morgan, Mrs. Stanford White, all of these women coming together saying, you know, we're great collectors, but we're not allowed to, you know, participate in museum boards. Well, why don't we start our own museum? And that's what they did. And so Mrs. Vanderbilt, Mrs. Morgan and Mrs. White and a group of women, they identify this property in the Bronx, which was a Dutch property, and so they create their own museum from it. And so that's where it comes full circle. You know, it's this, you know, a museum started by a group of women when they really, they couldn't vote and they couldn't, they couldn't do many things, but they felt strongly that they wanted to be a part. They wanted to sit at the table of, you know, cultural life in New York.
- [47:44]
A
They're thinking too, though, that they wanted to preserve early American history. Right. I think that was sort of the mission statement of the National.
- [47:54]
B
It's. Yeah, they wanted, yeah, it was, it, it was twofold. Yeah, they wanted to make sure because, you know, with, you know, how, you know, how would you identify and curate, you know, all of these objects? You know, and, but remember New York in the 1890s, at the turn of the century, it was a time of mass immigration. And so people were looking at identity. And so not just English identity, they were looking to other, other forms of the American, you know, of the American story. And so they're like, this is interesting. Why don't we, let's establish an American
- [48:29]
A
aristocracy, if you will.
- [48:31]
B
Let's. There are other stories. What about the Dutch? What about the Native American? What about. So they were like, okay, this will be our museum. And it wasn't just a museum, like a house museum per se. It had exhibitions, so it had themes. So it was. Yeah. Which. And it opened actually the same week as the Cooper Hewitt Museum in New York. And those are also. It was also two women, the Hewitt sisters. So it's actually interesting because this is in one week, the first two female led museums in the United States open in New York. So it's 1897.
- [49:08]
A
That's fascinating. So you see all these women sort of, okay, they're not being invited to, to, you know, join the board of the Met for example.
- [49:16]
B
And that's not gonna. I'm gonna say that ironically. It's. Mrs. Vanderbilt's daughter, Gertrude is one of the first to be asked actually ironically,
- [49:25]
A
be up to sit on the board than that.
- [49:27]
B
Yeah. And she's like, no, thanks. I'm gonna start my own museum, I think is how the story goes.
- [49:31]
A
And then she started the Whitney.
- [49:33]
B
Exactly.
- [49:34]
A
Okay.
- [49:34]
B
So you have. Yeah. So you have this backstory. Like before the Whitney, her mother was. Was sort of setting. I mean, maybe. Maybe Gertrude is looking at her mother and her, you know, and her mother's friends, Mrs. Morgan saying, you know, what if they can do it, I can do it.
- [49:53]
A
But they. So they were. They were part of, though, and the founders of kind of the New York chapter of the National Society of Clothes.
- [50:01]
B
Yeah. It was a national organization. And so they were falling in. Philip Elizabeth Gillespie and Philadelphia were the first.
- [50:09]
A
Right. Okay. And so they. And that the. That group, that original group was kind of the who's who of the Gilded Age. Right. And then they identify this property in the Bronx, this old Van Cortland House, decide they're going to make it into a museum. And then didn't Alice Vanderbilt have some big party. Right. She. To.
- [50:28]
B
So, yeah, before. Right. Because they didn't have an office. You know, where would you meet? How would you, you know, with. How would you administer a museum? Right. From. So they would actually do it from each other's homes. But I mean, Alice Vanderbilt, though, had quite the home at the time. I mean, it was an entire city block, which today it was torn down in the 20s, but today it includes Bergdorf Goodman, Van Cleef, you know, like the whole. That entire block next to the plaza was just her home. And so they would meet there. So they would have. Yeah. Discussions. So in the book, I have a chap at the beginning, the chapter describing one of their meetings. And they would often bring objects to share with each other. So they would have, you know, you would send over a part of your collection to Mrs. Vanderbilt's house, and they would arrange a temporary exhibition and then you would have tea and they'd be, you know, they bring in a lecturer. I mean, it sounds like it's, you know it and it was. That's how they did it in each other's. They call them their drawing rooms. So you would have, you know, meetings in our drawing rooms. So.
- [51:39]
A
And so it's so interesting, you know, the show the Gilded Age should. Should weave some of this in.
- [51:45]
B
Right.
- [51:45]
A
It'd be really interesting.
- [51:46]
B
Oh, right. I don't Think the show actually gives you even, like. I mean, it's even grander than I think. I think they dumb it down, actually. I mean, there were.
- [51:56]
A
Right. And have it be more about kind of social hierarchy than about kind of some of these women leading.
- [52:03]
B
Who are up to. Yeah, exactly.
- [52:05]
A
Change and leading, you know, preservation in the arts. So, okay, so they get this incredible display in the Van Cortlandt. They have all these different exhibitions, but they have a great collection that's housed there of delftware. And then in the night.
- [52:20]
B
Yeah, so it becomes. It becomes an. They build an exhibition space just to study Dutch ceramics. And so over 60 years. So from 1897, when they have this party and they start their museum and they, you know, they open their doors to the 1960s, they're developing this incredibly encyclopedic collection that tells you really the story of, you know, them. Who were the makers, how was it made? You know, what were forms? You know, things like, everything from, you know, they had, you know, things. The forms that we don't even exist anymore. Like a. Like what would be like a barber's bowl. So, you know, men used to have these bowls with. It would have a big notch where you could place it under the neck. And so you'd lean back and then the barber would. No, no, no. So they had, you know, forms that could teach, that could, you know, show you about, you know, lives in the past. So they create this incredible collection and then, you know, to illustrate the, you know, Dutch culture. This is New York City, 1960s. And so this little museum is in the middle of Van Cortlandt park in the Bronx. And the city, in its infinite wisdom at the time, decided to cut off electricity to sections of the Bronx. So if you drove to the museum in 1965, there were no street lights from, say, the sawmill to the. Where you cut off to go to the museum. So you can imagine the communities that were impacted. And so the women were. It was really a crossroads. And so they had. They did not want to move the delf where, but they had to make this decision to ensure its safety at a time when there was really. I mean, the city had cut back sanitation, policing. I mean, this was like a New York you don't want to return to. So they pack up the delf. Where and where do you take it? And I said, well, so then it reemerges. They move it down to Manhattan.
- [54:25]
A
Was it moved in the middle of the night? I feel.
- [54:27]
B
Maybe. I'm feel like it was, you know, it would Be an all day pack. I mean, it's a long process. And so they probably, it probably started in the morning and then by the evening they were. By the late afternoon they were ready to go. So they probably, you know, brought the trucks in and then they headed right into the city and then took it up. And it was placed in an upper gallery in the townhouse. So they had built, by the 1930s, they built a headquarters, you know, where they could meet to administer. It was like the museum offices, right. So they take all of the pieces back to the headquarters to these offices and they place it like high up above, and then it is forgotten, essentially.
- [55:14]
A
So having gone on this journey first discovering this collection, giving that lecture, having this literary agent say there's a book here, what does this collection or what does that experience kind of represent to you? And then I guess it maybe in some ways has a lot to do about the role of women, but. And kind of uncovering those stories that really have not been publicly told. It's almost like the secret history, right, of, of women for the past several hundred years.
- [55:46]
B
Yeah, I feel like it, you know, it, it speaks to, right, the untold stories, like the hidden histories that are just. They're right here in front of us and we don't get to see them. And I feel that, you know, like all of these women, they could have been. I mean, it probably it's no coincidence that, you know, women are called like the weaker vessel, you know, these ceramic terms. And I think it's just so ironic. So I think that, you know, this collection, it, it's so important. I mean, no, it's not the Rijksmuseum and it doesn't have royal provenance, these pieces, but, but it speaks to ambition and resistance and resilience and of generations of women. So it's just, yeah, it, it, it transcends beauty. And I hope that when people look at Delf where now whether it's in a museum case or you know, pieces, as you said, from my own family, that you can look at Delf where just a little bit differently now, you know, because it can also tell like these fantastic stories of, of women's experience and, and ability.
- [56:53]
A
That's amazing, Vivi. That's really, really beautiful. And I will say, you know, as I said to you, my mother in law has some pieces that we have somewhere. And I, I'm so curious. I mean, it's just. And I'm also curious about all the other own Untold stories, right, and Untold Histories, whether it's in decorative objects or, you know, other art or just women in general. Because it's just.
- [57:16]
B
Yeah, I think we're just scratching the surface, whether it's paintings or decorative arts. And I think, you know, we're moving into this golden age. Speaking of golden ages of, of archives in general, like that huge trenches of information that are now available to researchers. And you can. Because the information's there, but it's, it's, you know, connecting the dots. Right. Like, you know, and that's that, you know, the, you know, the, the researchers and scholars behind, you know, connecting those dots are just going to reveal. I mean, I can't wait.
- [57:50]
A
I said there's a series here. Vivi, you starting? I mean, I'm like, who's gonna. Is Julia Roberts would play you?
- [58:00]
B
I think you need to produce it. I think you're the woman to produce said Netflix series. And no, I'm just joking.
- [58:08]
A
I'm also for listeners, Vivi's going to give us all her secret best places to visit.
- [58:14]
B
Yes. Let's put together a list. I think that'd be.
- [58:17]
A
And it's only going to be available to you if you subscribe to my substack. So that's a great idea. Oh, yeah, no, I. Well, we're going to do the write up for the substack.
- [58:25]
B
Yep. And people often ask, like, where, you know, what to do, what to do. In Delft itself. Yeah, it's, it's such a great trip.
- [58:32]
A
You're going to get it from the real expert here. But Vivi, like the fact that, you know, we get to spend an hour together on a Saturday morning because.
- [58:41]
B
Okay, this is a dream. Exactly.
- [58:43]
A
When are we going to do the, I mean, the 21st birthday, you know, I guess in October. When I'll get to see you before then.
- [58:51]
B
Oh, my gosh. I know. Wait. Yes. Let's do it.
- [58:55]
A
Thank you so much for joining. Thank you so much.
- [58:57]
B
Thank you for having me, Leslie.
- [58:59]
A
I'm so.
- [58:59]
B
And your team, I mean, you guys are just the best.
- [59:04]
A
That brings us to the end of this episode of Duologue. A huge thank you to Genevieve Wheeler Brown for joining. I so enjoyed my conversation with Vivi. I hope that you did as well. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate or review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We really appreciate your support and we release a new episode every Wednesday, so tune in next Wednesday for a new episode. And until then, this is Leslie and thanks for listening to Duolog.