Podcast Summary: The Interview with Leslie Heaney – Episode: "Blind Spots" Featuring Dr. Kimberly Berens, Ph.D.

Overview

In the March 5, 2025 episode of "The Interview with Leslie Heaney," host Leslie Heaney engages in a profound discussion with Dr. Kimberly Nix Behrens, a leading expert in education reform and the founder of FIT Learning. The conversation delves into the current state of the U.S. education system, highlighting systemic issues and presenting science-based solutions to enhance student proficiency.

State of the U.S. Education System

Leslie opens the discussion by presenting alarming statistics regarding student proficiency in the United States. She states:

“Today in the US close to 70% of all of our students are below proficiency in math and reading.” ([00:05])

Dr. Behrens elaborates on these figures, emphasizing the disproportionate impact on students from low-income families:

“90% of those students are below proficiency.” ([00:12])

She underscores an ongoing educational crisis, noting that this trend has persisted since the inception of national academic assessments:

“Never once in the entire history of that assessment has a majority of students in the United States scored at the proficient level.” ([12:48])

Direct Instruction vs. Inquiry-Based Learning

A core segment of the podcast contrasts Direct Instruction with the dominant Inquiry-Based (Discovery-Based) Learning model prevalent in U.S. schools. Dr. Behrens critiques the inquiry-based approach, arguing that it is rooted in outdated educational philosophies rather than scientific evidence:

“Asnd that’s how learning works. It’s that’s what schools are designed based on belief systems, not based on science.” ([05:45])

She explains how inquiries-based methods favor students who already possess prior knowledge, leaving behind those who do not:

“It only benefits and reinforces and almost like admire, it allows admiration of the kids who have the opportunity to come from an enriched background and know this stuff already.” ([25:43])

Findings from Project Follow Through

Dr. Behrens references the Project Follow Through, the largest federally funded study on educational methods conducted between the late 1960s and early 1970s. The study's results favored Direct Instruction over progressive, inquiry-based methods:

“The results of the study were undeniable. Direct Instruction outperformed every other method by multiple standard deviations.” ([29:13])

Despite these findings, she points out that systemic inertia and lobbying by proponents of progressive education hinder the adoption of more effective teaching methodologies.

Science-Based Learning Approaches

Dr. Behrens introduces FIT Learning's Technology of Teaching, a synthesis of Direct Instruction, Precision Teaching, and Curriculum-Based Measurement (CBM). She explains each component:

1. Direct Instruction:
   Emphasizes active student participation and immediate feedback.

   “Sitting and staring doesn't. Yeah. If kids sitting and staring in a desk half asleep, drooling on themselves, messing with their neighbor, doodling, that they're never going to learn the material.” ([23:48])

2. Precision Teaching:
   Focuses on measuring the rate of correct responses to guide instruction.

   “Precision teaching is a way of measuring learning and evaluating instruction so that powerfully effective instructional, more data-driven instructional decisions can be made.” ([36:54])

3. Curriculum-Based Measurement (CBM):
   Provides ongoing assessments to monitor student progress toward grade-level proficiency.

   “CBM was a way to use short assessments designed directly from classroom curricula that teachers can do every single week.” ([43:32])

FIT Learning Methodology

Dr. Behrens details how FIT Learning implements these methodologies to achieve significant academic growth:

• Assessment:
  Identifying specific skill deficits through precise, timed assessments.

  “It's literally the most remarkable process. Parents who've been told, your child has dyslexia, your child has auditory processing disorder... they can see every single component skill involved in being a proficient reader assessed in separate timed practice periods with a fluency measure.” ([48:57])

• Instruction:
  Developing customized fluency-building programs based on assessment data.

• Data-Driven Adjustments:
  Continuously monitoring progress and adjusting instruction to ensure rapid learning gains.

  “We make instructional decisions to ensure that rapid gains are being made, and it's transformative.” ([41:20])

Implementation and Outreach

Dr. Behrens discusses FIT Learning's expansion, including its online division launched during COVID-19, which ensures accessibility for students regardless of geographic location. She highlights partnerships with schools, such as the recent collaboration with a Bronx principal to provide high-impact literacy interventions:

“We just started a high impact literacy intervention for their junior and seniors who are graduating and are functionally illiterate.” ([53:02])

Impact and Testimonials

The effectiveness of FIT Learning's approach is evident in the transformative outcomes for students. Dr. Behrens shares personal anecdotes, including her own experiences as a parent, to illustrate the program's success in improving both academic skills and self-esteem among students:

“It's not subjectively, like the tutor's making up what they're going to work on every day... it is a systematic, unbelievably precise, data-driven method of instruction that transforms kids' lives every single time. We never fail.” ([61:52])

Conclusion and Final Remarks

The episode concludes with a call to action for parents to advocate for scientifically-backed instructional methods in their children's education. Dr. Behrens emphasizes the importance of understanding how children learn and the necessity of changing instructional strategies to ensure student success:

“Give your kid the benefit of the doubt. Give yourself a break. You're not supposed to be a math teacher at night.” ([60:18])

Leslie expresses her gratitude and admiration for Dr. Behrens' work, highlighting the significant role of FIT Learning in addressing educational blind spots and fostering a more effective learning environment for students.

Notable Quotes

• Leslie Heaney:
  “With an overwhelming majority of students in our country graduating below proficiency in all academic subjects, I think it's fair to say that the US is in the middle of an educational crisis.” ([00:05])

• Dr. Kimberly Nix Behrens:
  “Learning occurs only through the repeated reinforcement of behavior over time.” ([23:48])

• Dr. Kimberly Nix Behrens:
  “Our education system should be transformed and designed according to science, according to what we know works, dictated by how learning works.” ([35:29])

• Dr. Kimberly Nix Behrens:
  “We are 100% accountable for the learning gains we produce and our failure to produce them.” ([61:53])

Conclusion

This episode of "The Interview with Leslie Heaney" offers a critical examination of the American education system's shortcomings and presents FIT Learning's evidence-based methodologies as a viable solution to enhance student proficiency. Dr. Kimberly Nix Behrens' insights provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of how targeted, scientifically grounded instructional strategies can address pervasive educational challenges.