← Duologue with Leslie Heaney
Duologue with Leslie Heaney
Color, Creativity, and the Power of Jewelry with Nicholas Varney
01:01:35
In this episode of Duologue, Leslie sits down with Nicholas Varney. Nick is the founder and designer behind Nicholas Varney Jewels. His work has earned him widespread recognition—from appearances in Vogue, Town & Country, and W Magazine, to be...
Loading summary
Transcript225 lines
- [00:03]
A
Hey, everybody, it's Leslie. And you're listening to Duolog with Leslie Heaney. I am very excited about today's episode and my guest, Nicholas Varney. Nick is the founder and designer behind Nicholas Varney Jewels. His work has earned him widespread recognition, from appearances in Vogue, Town and Country, and W magazines to being named by Forbes as one of the five jewelers working today that you will be collecting tomorrow. In this episode, Nick and I talk about his creative inspirations, his design process, and what it was like growing up as the son of the legendary interior designer, the late Carlton Varney. We also explore where the world's most extraordinary gemstones come from, the journey that these jewels take before becoming jewelry. The stones Nick likes to work with most and just generally how he approaches his work, not just as a designer, but as a true artist. Nick is brilliant and funny and so talented. It was a pleasure talking with him. I enjoyed every minute of my conversation. I know that you will, too. So with that, here's Nicholas Varney. All right, Nick, Nick. Nick is coming in from his beautiful store in Palm Beach. I'm getting, like, a great view in the background.
- [01:17]
B
Got a little smiley Vice Nia. Why not?
- [01:22]
A
It really is working for you and I. And the I. I have a visual in the back, too, of some of your incredible creations.
- [01:30]
B
It's authentic. Like, this is. This is an extension of how I like to see the world. It's got my jars of Draper pink that I grew up with. Got a little bit of Sunny Crockett with the.
- [01:42]
A
Oh, that's what. Wait, so that's not a trim? That's a. Those are lights?
- [01:46]
B
Yeah. I can change the color.
- [01:48]
A
Stop it. You have the remote right there. We got our first fake Christmas tree this year because we were going to be away, like, before Christmas, and I was working.
- [01:57]
B
Did you do a white one with white tinsel?
- [01:59]
A
Well, this is why I brought it up. It was. It was green. I did. I did sort of.
- [02:03]
B
Look, if you're gonna go artificial, go full artistic artificial. Do the white tree from the 70s with, like, the white tinsel or the silver tinsel. Go totally Sake.
- [02:13]
A
I did want to kind of channel Dolly. Dolly Parton. Being in a Nashville with a white. With a white tree.
- [02:19]
B
Have you ever been to Pigeon four?
- [02:22]
A
No, but I want to go.
- [02:23]
B
You know, it's not far from here. If you're in Nashville, what you do is you go to stay at BlackBerry Farm for two days, and you go to Dolly World and Pigeon Ford. It's not that far away.
- [02:34]
A
Yeah. Oh, so you've done both of those things many times.
- [02:36]
B
I've done them multiple times. I've ended up. I think Dolly. I think Dolly Parton is one of the great Americans. I love Dolly Parton.
- [02:44]
A
She's just great. I love Dolly. I love Dolly. But anyway, I.
- [02:47]
B
Great American.
- [02:48]
A
You mentioned your Dorothy Draper pink, and I want to kind of take you back to kind of your life and your influences. Right. You mentioned Dorothy Draper. Tell us a little bit about, you know, your background and whatever a human
- [03:04]
B
being is subjected to in their life, like visually, stylistically, whatever it is, somehow they're going to react to that, whether it be a positive or a negative. Like some. My father used to always do these speeches who. Where he'd say, your first room is the foundation of your taste. And that could be like, you wanted to recreate it, or you. You hated it so much you never wanted to have anything to do with it. Like, if, you know, some people would have a Victorian home they grow up in, and they become, you know, postmodern people because they were tired of all that clutter or whatever.
- [03:35]
A
Yeah.
- [03:36]
B
And vice versa. So I think what your influences are, are reactions to what you've been surrounded with. And I was surrounded as a child with basically a lot of bright, what I call sugar colors, you know, flower colors.
- [03:55]
A
Right.
- [03:58]
B
And, you know, color theory and color awareness. I mean, that's what we. That's what we talked about as kids. Like, for instance, colors are a language. Bauhaus, for instance, was. Was built on using color as a language without borders. And that's why their logo was that sort of primary color circles that we all know. But we're trained as human beings by big business to make associations based on color. So, for instance, if you see the Pringles can and you see the Coke can and you see a Skittles bag, it's all the same red color. And what it means to someone who doesn't speak English, it means sugar. And that's an extension of a hibiscus being red. And the bird going in and getting the glucose from the flower.
- [04:48]
A
Wait, Nick, this is something that you. You actually, there's. You're speaking about this kind of with authority. There is, like, evidence to. To support that or there's research there. I love, like, the. When you're saying sort of the.
- [05:03]
B
No, that doesn't. The evidence is the world. I mean, like, right. When a bird goes into a flower and takes nectar out of that flower, they're taking sugar out of that flower. Right. That's what a bird is doing. And the flower colors resonate with that bird as here I am. This is a beacon of sugar. Come get me on sugar. Because we need it as human, as human beings and as animals need sugars. So when you look at our candy rack at Costco or Walgreens, all of the candy wrapper colors are colors of flowers. Where human beings are going to get their sugar. You don't see very many moss green Skittles bags, you know, or there's not a lot of aubergine candy bars. It's because they're not sugar colors, they're savory colors. The French have always done a very good job of actually balancing savory with sugar. And my father didn't do that. My father used a lot of sugar in the 70s. He did, but he used a lot of sugar colors because he liked that. He liked that old, like, ice cream parlor vibe in everything, you know, Greenbrier, Grand Hotel, all of them. I mean, he, he was not afraid of color. He wrote 41 books about color. And it was. It's a language. And I mean, it's historically understood as a language. You know, it's a language without border because everybody gets it. You know, when you put red up there and then that tone of red, you're gonna get. You can have like, you can get diabetes if you keep going back there.
- [06:46]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, was that it, like for him, your father, Carlton Varney? His, his color evolution, originally influenced by Dorothy Draper or how. How did that meld together was. What was the chicken and the egg of that?
- [07:03]
B
The. The origins of Darcy Draper, which is the oldest established design firm in America, is the Brighton Pavilion in England, which was King George IV's sort of house by the sea. It's templish looking, you know, almost Indian styled building, but it is completely full of chinoiserie, which was very popular at the time in England, and very big bright colors. And Draper took a lot of the ideas from that, which is sort of painted white, baroque sconces, that kind of thing. And they put. She started putting it in hotels and around the United States. Like Braniff Airlines was all hers. A Panther Platinum 747 Orange Panther 736 Red. You know, like she was known as a major color person. And they did Howard Johnson's with the orange roofs.
- [07:52]
A
Oh, wow.
- [07:52]
B
Okay. So like, you know, that's. You go to Howard Johnson's for sugar. So you got those orange and that like, you know, slush puppy blue thing going. Yeah. And then my father took over the company and continued.
- [08:06]
A
What, what are we talking here, Nick?
- [08:08]
B
What, what late 60s.
- [08:10]
A
Okay.
- [08:11]
B
And he was spectacular. I mean, my father was an absolute, he was brilliant with color, specifically in the 70s and early 80s where he'd mix. You know, there was a little bit more freedom with color at that time.
- [08:26]
A
Yeah.
- [08:27]
B
But like, you know, I, I, I always, when people ask me about color, I always talk about cars because they're, they're sort of status quo, color wise. I mean, nowadays you've got 17 different choices of black and white and gray. You have to pay extra for a color if you, you know, some places. But in the 70s, you had Starsky and Hutch had that red thing and jokes of Hazzard had the orange.
- [08:50]
A
I was going to say jokes of hazard.
- [08:52]
B
Yeah, yeah. Like they, everybody had a burgundy car. Like, so it was, the fear of color at that time was non existent. Burt Reynolds had that black Firebird and, you know, it was fun.
- [09:07]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Back in the eyes, a lot of red.
- [09:11]
B
People were freer with color. Now you see it like, you know, in New York. There's no color in New York left. It's all gray. I mean, even the, even the rich people drive around in black suburbans, you know, pick each other up. It's not, it's a colorless town once you get inside some places and you have that. But, you know, we're slowly sucking color out of our society. Everything's beige. Even the museum, even the museums are beige. Like, like every museum has a white or gray wall, but not in Europe. Portrait gallery in London has a beautiful eggshell like Oricana eggshell blue. We're business is black and white. And I was never into that. I was into all that. I liked the sugar colors that my dad did, and I liked all that drama. I liked the circus. I liked Japan. And they're very good with color.
- [10:06]
A
Yeah. We were just saying that some people, as it relates to people having a reaction to their own childhood experience, that they either want to lean into that or they sometimes want to pivot and go an entirely different direction with their own style or colors. But you really, you know, those colors really resonated with you. You really wanted to lean into that. Not really.
- [10:34]
B
No.
- [10:34]
A
But in your, in your own bit. I mean, I'm looking at you. We got it, we got the, you got a pink wall. We've got.
- [10:40]
B
I didn't want to lean into it. I, I, I actually actively didn't want to lean into it. You know, like this bright, feminine toffee sort of pink that's on the walls or. I just didn't want to be afraid of it.
- [10:54]
A
Right.
- [10:54]
B
You know, I like. There's. There's no bad color. There's no bad color. There might be one that, you know, people think is gross or whatever that, like, that just. The color serves as a. As a. As a foil for something else. It's very important to have tones. And this bright pink. I thought it was Palm Beach. We did it with sort of chocolate brown palm tree veneer and brown leather. So it's red trim. We're a little whacked out. But that's what's fun for me, messing around with these color relationships and what they say to one another. Every time you wake up in the morning, you see the sky, and often it's orange and sort of light blue or lavender. Evening is. Is the same color combination generally, but it's a very different type of light. And the balance of what tones they are. You can change things so dramatically. Again, that's what I have the most fun with. I have a lot of fun with being able to move the impression by slight moves.
- [12:00]
A
I mean, I do know what you mean. And I. You're so, I mean, incredibly talented at it as reflected in your. All of your pieces. But did you. So tell me, when did you decide, you know, coming from this incredibly creative family, your father and your mother. Right. Who ran Carlton V. Which was, you know, did you sort of start gravitating towards going to the jewelry design business? I mean, you decided at some point, right, to pursue this and study this.
- [12:29]
B
What.
- [12:29]
A
What was the impetus of that?
- [12:31]
B
Not very bright. Like I'm saying, I never really made any special decision to. To become a jewelry. Let me tell you a story. When we was. When I was 11 years old, we went on a family trip. Sebastian, my brother, my mother and my father and my parents were getting divorced at the time. Essentially, there's a lot of anger, a lot of negative energy in the house. Yeah. And. But we, you know, daddy was rich, so we would. We went just to. To Staad, Switzerland, on a skiing holiday for Christmas.
- [13:06]
A
What are we talking? Is this like, 80s 1982? Okay.
- [13:11]
B
And my mother saw ring on the main street in Stad. And I went back with my father to look at it and talk to the jewelry designer. The name was Eric Berchant. Probably 15 times before we bargained. And we finally, my father and I would leave, we'd go to chocolate shop, think we'd go get a hot chocolate at the Swiss Chalet next door. And it was very Glamorous. And I had my cheek.
- [13:35]
A
I was gonna say I love, I love the scene, the scene that you're setting.
- [13:37]
B
Oh, there's a snow on these beautiful Tyrolean roofs. And even though it's not the Tyrol, the whole thing was fun. It's like glamorous, rich and travel. And I was like, you know, we're buying jewelry that sparkled. It was very captivating. And I was proud of my father that he could, he could afford this stuff because, you know, expensive. So after numbers of negotiations, he bought the ring from my mother and he gave the ring to my mother on Christmas morning. Okay. And it was like all the negativity in the family was gone. Like immediately she opened that little stupid thing by a ring. TORI M. And all those dark clouds were like blown out to see. Now it probably only lasted two weeks, but I'm pretty sure in my child mind I was like that little thing did that.
- [14:36]
A
Yeah.
- [14:36]
B
And I wanted to hit that note. If you could blow away all negativity by making something that sparkled and was pretty, I wanted to know about it. So that's ultimately what I did. And you know, at some point in time I thought I was a jewelry designer. I'm not a jewelry designer. I'm. I, it happens to be jewelry. Jewelry is my medium, but I'm a total artist. Like, you know, jewelry. I would make a distinction between jewelry design and art as whether or not decisions during the process of making the piece were made solely because of money. And when I make a money is like in the rear view mirror. Now that may seem negligent, but it's essential. Like you can't make something fresh if you're trying to. If the piece at the end of the day is. Looks like it was made to be, to be sold. I like to make the pieces because I and people look at them because I can't help it. You know, I would do this for free.
- [15:39]
A
I love the reason why people, you know, want to buy your pieces is because of the art, right? Is because of how you are combining color, how your designs are unique to you. I mean, to your point, I bet you could come up with a formula. And I. There are some big names, you know, jewelry people that you and I both know that we. That have a ring. Right. You can change the color, but it's the, you know, it's a sort of a, you know what people like and would buy. But in your. I don't know, I'm saying people do. There is a there as you said you could design to that to that goal, if you wanted to be as.
- [16:22]
B
As clear as I think I tried to do that. I tried to please people when I first started, I did. I want to. I made a piece of jewelry, and I. If somebody made a suggestion, I'd be like, you know what? I want to please you. And that's what people expect. Jewelry designer, they come into the store and they say, hey, Nick, can you do a peridot here instead of a so and so and a so and so? And the jewelry designer always goes, yes, I can do that. I'd love to help you with that, Jeanine. And they do it for them. But if you can't walk into a painter and say, hey, Randy the painter, my wife likes coral. Can you just do the top left portion of the painting in coral so it matches the right. The. The Drapers. The artists will kick you out.
- [17:13]
A
Right.
- [17:14]
B
So what's the difference? It's one who's accommodating people and one who's totally not accommodating. Like, you don't tell. You tell an artist. I'm totally not accommodating.
- [17:27]
A
I love it, by the way. I love that. And I think that probably, you know, obviously it's definitely resonating with. With your clients because you have to trust the artist. Right there. They are funny.
- [17:37]
B
It's funny. Like, I had a couple people come in here the other day, and they sort of, you know, they were used to. They were commissioning something, and they were used to sort of having a say and wanting to make sure that the person who's made it for them didn't go up the rails. And so she was telling me what she wanted. But at the end of the conversation, she would say, but I don't want you to really listen to me. Just do what you want to do.
- [18:01]
A
Yeah.
- [18:01]
B
And I finally said to her, I was like, look, I heard you, everything you said about what you wanted, but I'm going to forget it by the time you walk out the door. Which is totally true. I, like, I can't do a good job for her unless I'm totally happy myself. And sometimes they say something, and I feel like I can work it into the design and it might be sort of fun, and I learned something from it, so I do that. But no, I do exactly what I want. I love it.
- [18:30]
A
I mean, I just. The whole. This whole Varney, it really. There is a common Varney thread. You must know that. And that kind of encapsulates it right there. You guys, how can you be an
- [18:39]
B
artist and try to please everybody. Like, you know, David Bowie used to talk about it. Say. He'd say, an artist does his worst work when he tries to fulfill the expectations of somebody else. I don't know what people want.
- [18:52]
A
I have.
- [18:52]
B
I grew up in an absolutely wacky household. I have no idea what the average American wants.
- [19:00]
A
Well, let's get back to the wacky, though, for a second.
- [19:02]
B
So you.
- [19:03]
A
You have this moment in Staad, right, which sort of changed your perception, or you had this. The power of that particular item, or you just loved how that piece or that thing was able to transform, you know, a mood, a dynamic. You just saw the power in it, right. In a positive way there. And then you decide, you know, you go to college, right. You graduate. Did you already. Did you have in your mind. Okay, I. I do want to pursue that and study that. Or study. Go to the Gemological Institute of America in Vincenzo. I want you to note my, My, My pronunciation there. And then, you know. So at some point you decided, I want to pursue this. Right? Yeah, formally. And then you go there. How long do you study there?
- [19:53]
B
I studied there about stones for about a year.
- [19:56]
A
Okay. And what is happening there? Is that like the epicenter of that is a place to go or what? What. Why did you choose that look?
- [20:04]
B
Great time. I like. I really just wanted to go to Europe and have a nice time. And I had this beautiful Panamanian girlfriend, and she would.
- [20:13]
A
Panamanian?
- [20:14]
B
Yeah, my college girlfriend. She. I was fabulous woman, and she was living in Paris. And I go up to Paris where I literally just sort of doing.
- [20:23]
A
Yeah, I'm with you. It's very romantic.
- [20:24]
B
I'm always trying to enjoy my life. And I was trying to. I was trying to learn about gemstones, not because I got a credential, but because I really was interested. So, you know, it was never really work. It was never really school. It was super fun. And then on the days off, I. In the pouring rain, I'd get on the train, I'd go to Venice and walk around the streets for six hours. And I'd made friends. You just go on walkabout. So that's what I did. I went on walkabout.
- [20:50]
A
So you had a one year walkabout and then you come back to New York?
- [20:56]
B
Came back to New York, worked at David Webb, which was on 57th street at the time, for a year. And it was a fabulous experience because everybody hated me. And I was going to ask how that was. All the Salespeople were like 90 and they middle of the day, they'd asked me to like color their shoe with a marker. It was the weirdest shit. And they would never let me talk to anybody who was. Had anything like was going to buy anything. They just, they. There was an angry client.
- [21:27]
A
So you, you were back of house. You were not front of house at all.
- [21:31]
B
I was a whipping boy and I was getting, they were getting paid nothing. And I learned so much. It was incredible. The biggest one was that when with web pieces like they, they're very heavy. So women complain about the weight on their ears, not that they're not beautiful. I love web jewelry. But I would get the women who came in with like a real mean on that were like, these earrings suck and they're too heavy. So like the beat, the, the beating that I consistently got was by the weight of an earring. You know, you make web lengths big earrings and I always liked those big earrings. So the great lesson from that first year of David Webb was like, make an earring the right way. And it served me. I can't even tell you how important that is. Like, you know, people forget, designers forget about how important it is that a woman doesn't like take her earring off at 8:30 at night at a dinner party and like, you know what? And just, just going, oh my God. I'm like, my eyes are watering. You can't do that. Jill girl, you were so.
- [22:29]
A
I never. Because guess what? The ones that cinch my ears and we can talk offline. I can tell you who, who made them. Yeah, I do take them off. And actually if I'm deciding which ones to wear, I. You want to wear the ones that don't hurt your ears?
- [22:44]
B
Clearly, no.
- [22:45]
A
Is there a sweet spot weight on that or you just kind of know. Did you like do some trial and error, like have.
- [22:50]
B
Oh, yeah, yeah. Balance plays into it too. I mean, basically 14, 13 pennyweights would be very high for me, but I've done it. But it has to be balanced perfectly. You know, I just can't get away with it. If an earring hurts somebody, I'm going to hear about it and I really don't hear about it. So I just make sure also the
- [23:07]
A
cinching with the, if you have the piercing with the clip that's like, I
- [23:14]
B
do clip on everything, but you have
- [23:16]
A
to have the right clip. Otherwise, I mean, I could give some of my earrings to the United States, you know, Secret Service or the CIA to use an interrogation technique.
- [23:25]
B
Wrong jewelry box can look like a torture chamber.
- [23:27]
A
Yeah. Yep. By the way, we need, we could make that into a bumper T shirt. All right, so you come out, you're working at David Webb. At what point were you like, you know what? I've got this weight thing down. I know that, like I need to get. That needs to be perfected. You're learning a lot. You're back a house, you're coloring people's shoes. These older ladies.
- [23:50]
B
I was jacked up. But it was great. It was a good time for Joel Ribbon. Then Harry Winston called me and this guy named Eddie Vander Geest and he said, why don't you come work for Winston? I thought this would be nice. I'll go work. So I went and interviewed at Winston with this guy who was definitely on coke during the, during the interview. Forget his name.
- [24:07]
A
What was the tip off the jaw was a jaw movement or it wasn't.
- [24:12]
B
Put it this way as it wasn't close. It was like noon and leave it like. I followed up with him five times. They never called me back. I'd already sort of left Webb saying I was going to go to Winston, but they never called me back and I had no job. So I wound up. I knew I always wanted to make sure. I was like, might as well make it now. So I started making it now or then and haven't really looked back. But it's been a sort of. It hasn't been a direct line to the goalpost.
- [24:45]
A
When was this?
- [24:46]
B
We're looking at like 1994.
- [24:51]
A
Okay. And so you decide to go out on your own. You already sort of mentioned that you kind of at the beginning, which makes sense. You're like, you know, a starting out entrepreneur. Maybe you're taking feedback from clients about what they want, trying to please your clients. Where do you. Then and now? Maybe it's evolved over time. But get your. Where do you get your inspirations for your designs? You mentioned like the sunset and the colors of the sunset.
- [25:17]
B
I don't think about it, you know, I really don't think about. I don't sit down and try to design. I walk with the dog. You know, stuff comes to me. It's just. I try to stay an open channel. Do you know what I mean? Rather than sort of, I'm gonna do designs from 2 until 4 and I'm gonna work it out. Think about. I don't think. Just happens. I. Sometimes I wake up in the morning, it's there.
- [25:39]
A
So I interviewed this guy, Adir Abergel, who's a friend of mine. He and I met on a hiking trip. It's a longer story. In Italy. And he said to me, he will sit in Paris sometimes. Not to your point. Not like he's reserving a particular time, but if he's in a cafe, he just kind of looks to see he's a hair stylist. And to celebrities and stuff, like, what's, what kind of trends, like what's happening. Or he finds inspiration just like watching people on the street in certain cities, what, what they're doing, what they're wearing, what they're. What they're gravitating towards. For you, is it more. You mentioned walking the dogs. Is it more like natural influences? Like looking at. You know, you talked about flowers with the color earlier.
- [26:23]
B
My goal with the whole thing is to make something that helps me understand how I coexist with the rest of the world. Because I don't really feel like I, I'm not on the same wavelength as most people. I don't think. I don't know what most people are talking about. I'm not computer oriented, like, probably a dinosaur in many ways. And I've always probably felt like I was a little bit outside of the, you know, the cool kids. Ultimately, just.
- [26:55]
A
I think that would be how people perceive you. But it's interesting that you perceive yourself.
- [27:00]
B
I, you know, I see myself that way.
- [27:03]
A
Okay.
- [27:03]
B
And I really have only focused on making things that help me tune into how I, How I coexist with the world. And that's the point of the pieces. It's not really to sell them. It's to find my own voice ultimately. Like, what. What do I think is beautiful? How can I put all the pieces of this diverse exposure into one place that says it all in one concise package? And that's been, that's been the trip. And it's been trying to get there, and it's hard to get there. Your ego will get in the way. Like, you'll get. You'll talk to people who will say, you need to try this or try that. You know, you, like, you know, you were saying a lot of stacking bracelets is really popular. Like, and you'll go, maybe I should like a stacking bracelet. I've never done well when I sort of followed a trend or tried to be like anybody else. I only got someone where, when I tried something, it was usually risky and it worked and.
- [28:16]
A
Well, maybe you're actually setting the trend.
- [28:19]
B
No, I don't think. I don't. I don't make enough money to set the trend. I don't have a PR person. I'm not trying to set a trend.
- [28:24]
A
I don't know, Nick, but, like, I. I mean, you would know better than I. But, like, I. You know, I just feel like at some point when, you know, people are real artists and they're. And they're kind of pushing, doing things, as you said, kind of outside the lines or, you know, or you looking in, you then do tend to do things that are, you know, people that are unique and you're not seeing everywhere.
- [28:46]
B
And I could. I sign the pieces? You know, I'm always like Instagram or something like that. When they say. When somebody posts something and people say something to it, I see that sometimes. And they say, instantly identifiable. That's the greatest compliment I could get. Instantly identifiable. I don't really care if they like it or don't like it. They. The fact that it's instantly identifiable turns me on.
- [29:10]
A
That's cool.
- [29:11]
B
It feels like I've been repetitive enough with my voice that people get it, you know, and obviously, there are some things that are. There's a. There are commonalities. Like, I use abalone a lot in pieces. I love natural pearls and agate. You know, Agate. It took me a very long time to come to agate, but I used to go to the Tucson jump show. I still do. I just go back and, you know, I guess at one point in your life, you think you should be looking at Burmese rubies to sell them. But I was always picking up these weird pieces of agate. Like, I still do, like, this stuff. They're all sitting all over my desk.
- [29:46]
A
I want to do a deeper dive into that. It's like your. Your process and the stones and stuff.
- [29:50]
B
Like you mentioned, this is my desk. It's a bowl of tea, cash, some. Some, like, a lot of rocks.
- [29:58]
A
I mean, the cash on top. I mean, it's. There's a scene in Scarface where he's in that big office with the one going too. So wait, so. But you get inspired by something, right? And you said, maybe it's a natural world. You start designing it. Do you. Then when you decide what stones to use, is that based on availability? Is that based on. You're like, I had that piece of agate. Like, how does your. How do your materials influence your design and vice versa?
- [30:32]
B
There is no method to this madness. There really isn't. Like, I like. And I think the more you simplify life, the more you understand. And at 54 years old now, I have figured out what I like in my life. I like to play tennis, and I like women. Yeah, I Like women who are confident and feel beautiful. And if I can do something with little rocks and pebbles and shells to make that woman feel really beautiful, I love that. And if I can do exactly what. What I want to do, that I think she would look beautiful without, like, it's so great. I get to make something that makes a woman feel beautiful. It makes her change her walk, makes her. Makes her glow. And. And especially earrings. Like, earrings to me are by far the most important piece of jewelry. A ring is, you know, like, to some extent your property. You know, you get, I think, you know, like, you have security. You're good. Yeah, look, I'm rich, too. I'm married. I got. I have.
- [31:39]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [31:39]
B
I have a German shepherd or golden retriever. The necklace is good. It's fine. Bracelets are, you know, slavery. But an earring. An earring doesn't mean anybody's rich. It doesn't mean they belong to anybody. It just, it's. It. It makes a woman feel really great about herself. It's her beauty. And she gets to walk into Rome and light up the fucking room.
- [32:05]
A
Let's talk about. Because I feel like there are trends. I know you don't follow the trends, but there are trends in jewelry. Like, you know, let's talk 20 years ago might have been a bigger, like, post hearing, and now I feel like it's a lot of chandelier earrings. Am I right about that or is that okay?
- [32:23]
B
Maybe it's a different way of hitting the same note. The note is, woman feels pretty. You know what I mean? Women. And that doesn't change that much. Like an earring. You can look at the old Klimt paintings in Vienna and like, they've got these fabulous symbolist earrings on. You know, there's a little bit of culture conversation, political conversation in any good art if it's done at that time, you know.
- [32:47]
A
But how about that? Do you look back, do you, like, collect old. I mean, I know, like, interior designers and I don't know if this is your dad's experience, but, you know, I look at books of other people's work or you might look in magazines at their current work and find inspiration there, or you bringing back a color or you're bringing back. Is there anything like that where you're looking back at old Verdura or you're looking back at David Webb or Harry. Where. Wherever. Cartier. Old things that you are like, gosh, that. That design I find interesting. Or maybe I could work that into what I'm doing now, but I don't
- [33:21]
B
really think, like, keep in mind that the pieces that were made in 1940 and 1930 and 1920 were being made because those people making them were having coffee at the end of the street and they were having conversations about wars happening, about to happen, what the styles were. Okay? The styles are always a result of the politics. Is Art Deco coexisting with World War I by accident? No, it's not Art Deco. Art Nouveau went out and Art Nouveau came. And Art Deco came in in, like, 10 minutes. And why did that happen? Why did we go from large carved heron hat racks to just squares? And it was because everybody knew that the war was coming. And everything had to be in. Ammunition had to be stackable in the corner. You saw this machinery coming in. Rounds and geometry became major because organization what you needed most during wartime. So the styles at the time are really just the echoes of the politics. If it's relevant. And the art gets credit for being relevant, if it actually talks about the zeitgeist of that time.
- [34:36]
A
Right, Interesting.
- [34:36]
B
So I can't make an art deco piece of jewelry, although I love art deco, and maybe it has some kind of minor role in it because I never lived in 1926. You know, I didn't go to the Paris exhibition of 1925. I didn't know what those people were talking about. I know what they're talking about now. I know what they're talking about at the corner, and I know what my views on those things are at the corner. And what I make is a reaction to the politics on some level. And I mean, like, I don't like futuristic designs. I like old 1960s Hollywood stuff. I like big hair from Texas. And I like. You know, what I like is not very futuristic.
- [35:23]
A
Right.
- [35:24]
B
I look backwards or for. For glamour more than forwards. And I'm not right doing that. It's just the way I handle it. And my jewelry sort of a result of that. Like, I like big earrings, like Webb. Did I look at Webb things? Yes, that was. His look is 19. It's 19 late 60s, early 70s. It's very Dallas to me. There's Houston, because all those girls loved all that big gold stuff during the oil.
- [35:53]
A
Yeah, I love that too. I'm very. I'm into the whole dynasty feel of things. What about. So you would say that your designs, though, are. And maybe you wouldn't like this term, but like, more classic and have longevity as opposed to. Because I also, you know, there are certain stones that I think have had. Have been kind of trendier. Like I remember right around the time that I got engaged. This is like 27 years ago. I have a sapphire engagement ring with two diamonds on the either side. But a lot of yellow diamonds were kind of popping up around there as, like a tre. I don't know, trendy. But it was right maybe like three or four years after I got engaged. Yellow diamonds were really colored diamonds. Pink diamonds, yellow diamonds. Are you seeing that now? Like, there are certain types of stones that are more popular, and is that because of jewelers and jewelry designers sort of looking to sell, you know, fulfill that trend? Or is it because those stones are more available or. Or what is, like, what is the availability of the natural resource? How does that, like, I guess what's
- [37:04]
B
driving it look the same thing? When we were in college, like, there was a. There was a pesto salad in every restaurant. Yeah, yeah. Up in college. I haven't seen a pesto salad on a menu in seven years. So shit's change, you know, I mean,
- [37:17]
A
like, what's the new kale? Nick, what's the new kale?
- [37:20]
B
I don't know. Like, there's always a new quinoa. There's always a new kale. Always. It's the same thing in jewelry. They're trying, like, you know, these are added to editors making up what's the next new thing that, you know, some business person says, let's sell this. Well, we want to get rid of that stuff. All money. It's all money. Like, so, yeah, trends will change. Right now there's these stackable things that everybody likes. What's in vogue? Like, lockets were in vogue at some point in time, and, you know, people had their moments. There were a lot of people have their moments.
- [37:52]
A
Yeah. Charm bracelets, I think, have had kind of had multiple coming back. Although those are also kind of, you know, classic depending on. But what about, like, the actual stones themselves? Like, I. Is that driven by availability at all? Like, would someone be like, I'm going to make this earring with yellow diamonds because there are plenty right now, and I can't really find X. And I don't know how, like, tariffs plays a role in this or trade issues. But rarity.
- [38:19]
B
Rarity has very little to do with jewelry value because you can have stones that are so rare that they can't build a market around it. You know, diamonds, there's plenty of diamonds. They want to make it sound rare, but there's. Look, there's enough diamonds for someone in double wide to have one and Queen of England to have one.
- [38:37]
A
Right. It Just depends on the quality of the diamond there. What country is South Africa still like the, the diamond. Is that the. Or Africa in general is where the, the primary source of diamonds.
- [38:50]
B
That's where the story started. De Beers, you know. Yeah, the mines there. But no, like, is South Africa the best diamond mine in the world? Now a Cape color stone is a light yellow. The Russians have the white ones. And the most diamonds in the world come from Australia. Like 42% of the world's diamond.
- [39:07]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [39:08]
B
From argyle. Like people don't even think of Australia. It's by far the most, most diamond producing country in the world.
- [39:15]
A
What about. So is Colombia the source of emeralds? I see that in the airport. I get my sources from the airport.
- [39:21]
B
What's that for a certain quality of emerald. Yeah, interesting. You know, it's a different emeralds exist in other places. Do they exist in ec In Egypt? They exist in, you know, all over the world.
- [39:35]
A
But what about India? Like, where do you go if you're going to go source stone? I feel like India is a popular place where the people are often going to source stones. Is that because the stone market's coming into India from other countries or is India actually a place where they're mined?
- [39:50]
B
The Indians, like, jewelry is part of their culture. You know, like the richest jewelers in the world are Indian jewelers. Because, you know, if I'm, if I get someone to walk in here and they, they buy a piece of jewelry, that's nice. But in India, somebody walks in and said, we have a wedding, we need 275 pieces of jewelry. Can you do it by, you know, the start of the wedding? Like it's part of their cultural thing. So the jewelers are making hundreds and hundreds of pieces for one party.
- [40:16]
A
Wow.
- [40:17]
B
You know, and they, and they love it. They wear lots of gold. You know, it's got a specific quality element to it and it has a specific look to it. I mean, you know what Indian jewelry looks like. These people love it. They love gold. You know, like Indians collect gold, they wear it like crazy. English people don't even know they want to make gold. Nine, nine carat English. So it's just, it's a different cultural vibe. So, you know. Yeah, they've got.
- [40:45]
A
But how does it affect your designs? Like, are you.
- [40:48]
B
I look at Indian jewelry, but I'm not into Indian jewelry. It's like Indian jewelry.
- [40:52]
A
No, I mean for yourself. Like when you're drawing something, you like, draw your design. I'm assuming. I don't know what your process Is. But then you're like, okay, agate. But are you thinking of that piece that you have there on the, on the Scarface coffee table with the money and all the stones there? Or are you thinking about it just agate in general, or are you.
- [41:11]
B
I'm just hanging out with the stones. Hold on, let me see. So I'm not trying. I'm just sitting here. I'm gonna do a. Do it. Not a close up for you. And I sit next to this basically all day, all this stuff. And I've been taking this, which is called phosphedrite and abalone by just. And then. Hold on. And then I have a couple stones. And I have a couple stones on the table here. And I'm not designing anything. I'm just hanging out with the stones and when I see a combination, it turns me on. Hold on. Sorry. Trying to get this thing.
- [41:59]
A
No, this is good. I like that you're. We're getting like a people. You need to watch this on YouTube if you're listening. So you can see all that. I mean, you can see. Maybe we can show it on Instagram
- [42:07]
B
too, but I don't know if it's in focus or not.
- [42:10]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [42:11]
B
Congolese tournament tourmaline. That's sort of orangey grain with phosphorite and abalone. Like, nobody's hanging out thinking about that shit. Like, what if I do? Because you can't with color. You don't. There's no such thing as clean color memory. You have to see it together. Or at least I do. And when I see something together, just hanging out, having my tea, and I know it's. It's talking to me. I know I can make a piece of jewelry out of it. And then I get to add diamonds and gold to these things. Going to win. It's gonna look good. It's gonna make you.
- [42:45]
A
Like last week you were at a gem show. Yes, right. And I just, I do wanna give people a little behind the music on the industry itself. So people like you, or people like Harry Winston or David Webb or whoever that work for those companies will go to the gem shows, look and see what's. What the different dealers are selling in terms of raw stone. It sounds like you might buy some things without even having the design done that you know, you're going to make that into a ring and then have it, like socialize with it, spend time with it, be inspired by it, and then design from what you've got on your table there. Or maybe you do that and you also do the going for the design.
- [43:28]
B
I buy all the stuff that I think is pretty. And there's a. I might not know why I think it's pretty, but I buy it and I stick it on the table. And I have multiple tables like this, and I just hang out with it. I like being around the rocks, you know, I like that.
- [43:43]
A
Maybe we should have a cocktail party around that. But I know you don't want my input because you've got your own. I want you.
- [43:48]
B
Look, I'll listen to you. I'll let it. I'll let her watch. Like poetry. There was a major mistake in. In the jewelry industry at some period in time. I can't put my finger on what it was, but they separated transparent stones and precious stones from the rest of the minerals in the world. So, like, if you go to Winston, you're going to see a ruby, a diamond, a sapphire, maybe a Perry. Of a tourmaline, yellow gold and white diamonds. You're not going to see any opaque stones, not. Or minerals. You're not going to see it. And part of what I do, or major part of what I do is putting the minerals back into the conversation. It's like putting the savory back into the color pattern. And so that's been a real advantage to me to be able to have and use stones that nobody else uses. And at one point, I was afraid of. I didn't think I could make fine jewelry with agate. I thought it was too cheap a material. Material. But, God, was I wrong. Agate. Agate is everything to me. Like, when you pick up a piece of agate and you realize it came from the earth, it can be nothing but God's paintbrush. Like these beautiful scopes that the earth will give. Like, look at these. That's a natural color.
- [45:20]
A
I know. It's crazy. It really is crazy because that's.
- [45:23]
B
So. These are like salmon slices. Like, this is my Scottish salmon slime. It's like, you know, so I have so many more paint colors now and so many more saturations of color to work with. Is the truly the most fortunate thing that's happened to me that I. I get the earth to provide me with all these tones and shades that I can't even anticipate.
- [45:46]
A
Yeah. Well, just looking at that one, the one you just held up with all the different colors in it, you know,
- [45:52]
B
what is this color? What is this? But that's. It's almost like a. I don't even know what to call it, but, man, will it set off something else so beautifully. There's a. There's a very important book by a guy named Sanzo Wada. He was a. He was. He's the great colorist of Japan. And he talks. The book is about color combinations that he makes or that defines the Japanese language of color. And it's. It's extraordinary. Learn so much from it. But all these different shades was that a certain.
- [46:24]
A
Last week was a gemstone.
- [46:26]
B
It was okay. Tucson Gem show is the only gem show in the world that really focuses and puts a spotlight on mineral world. And it's the direct result of Bisbee, Arizona opening years ago and having all the turquoise and all copper's in the ground down there. All the big copper companies on. And the colors are incredible. All those turquoises. We have peridot down there. We have copper agates, topaz.
- [47:01]
A
In the mineral situation, what are we?
- [47:03]
B
Topaz? Yeah, but they're not from there. But topaz. Topaz are hard stone to use because they have double cleavage, which means they can break at multiple different angles. It's not really grit stock for a ring pendant. Fine. What. Whatever. But there was a community that was. Existed in Arizona, like sort of a biker gang community. And they ran drugs over the border to Mexico. And people would pay for the drugs with gemstones and minerals. And those people still live. They're getting old now, but they have all of these incredible stones and minerals that were mined in namibia in the 60s. Like Sugilite that in their backyard with nine German shepherds around it and tarp cover.
- [47:46]
A
So wait, are you going there? No. Or did they bring into the show?
- [47:49]
B
I'm trying to find people that were involved in drug deals in like the early 70s.
- [47:54]
A
I was gonna say this sounds like the next Hulu series, limited series there. Like where.
- [48:00]
B
I can't go to Hong Kong. I can't go to Basel to find like jelly sugilite. That was mine in 65. No. I've got to get it from. From somebody like one of the cowboys.
- [48:10]
A
So you've got your cowboy sources. And then what are the other big show? Like what are the. What are the.
- [48:15]
B
The rest is fancy gem stuff. Like it's Hong Kong in September. I used to go to all the time. Basel used to have a show. There's the Geneva show. But these are people in suits trying to sell heads and stones and ask. Acting like fancy. Like I like to go to Tucson where I find incredible stuff. And the guy's smoking a joint in his jeans at the back from a pickup truck. You know me because yeah, that's where you really find, or I find those incredible colors to pair with all the things that we know. Diamond. Yeah, you're ultimate. We're dressing these stones.
- [48:54]
A
I was going to say that sort of like your version of high, low, like, but it's not. I mean, you're. You're really moved by the colors that the. Those stones.
- [49:01]
B
Hi, Low works. Hi, Low. Yang and yang. You know what I mean?
- [49:06]
A
So we talked about suppliers. Are there any other countries that we miss that are big producers of.
- [49:11]
B
Africa has beautiful, beautiful colors. India has an immense, fabulous history of gemstones. You know, Germany is very well known for all these agates. They used to heat them in different ways and carve them into birds and all that Hapsburg kind of carved clock, you know, thing that even Fergue did, you know.
- [49:32]
A
Oh, right, right.
- [49:33]
B
With all the banded. Like carving rhodochrosite into a hippopotamus. Now I like those things more now than I ever did because the. The humor in the jewelry and the use of. Of minerals is essential. If you only go with. To me. If you only go with the fancy stuff. You're getting emotional diabetes with all that sugar. Give me some. Give me some health food in my. And give me some modest materials, you
- [50:03]
A
know, you want the savory, you want the savory. Why would you study some minerals? Yeah, what about. How is your business affected by the larger world economy? Or dare mention it, politics? Like, did the tariff situation earlier this year was big impact on jewelry. Jewelry pricing, access to stones.
- [50:21]
B
Jewelers have been smuggling since. Since Tavernier did it in Venice. Like, I'm sure I. Look, I haven't brought anything in from Europe, but. And I'm sure that if I wanted to, I'd have to work around it sometimes. Like, the tariffs make it impossible to, like, get a stone in. I can't have a stone sent from Antwerp to the United States, pay the tariff on it and send it back because most of these things are on me. So, you know, I. I don't have to do that that often. There's stones. But I don't think it's going to really affect the jewelry community because they're just gonna. They're gonna smuggle it.
- [50:57]
A
Interesting.
- [50:59]
B
That, like, that's part of the jewelry lore. It's like they've been smuggling. Why do you think you're paying so much for a Burmese ruby? Because it got smuggled out of Burma and who knows where.
- [51:11]
A
Interesting.
- [51:12]
B
Yeah, it's.
- [51:13]
A
It's part of these sort of art and like, there Isn't with art, like an issue with establishing provenance? Like, you know, that it wasn't. It wasn't owned by, you know, someone that was taken from them, you know, in. In Germany, you know, in 1939. Is there anything like that equivalent in jewelry?
- [51:31]
B
You mean, like, did. Did jewelry get stolen from everybody?
- [51:34]
A
Well, it did. I mean, you look at like, you know, the Romanovs, you know, when they were shot, you know, one of the reasons why it took him so long to die, right? They had their jewelry sewn inside their clothes.
- [51:46]
B
Didn't they make. Didn't they make that movie Blood diamond with what's his face?
- [51:50]
A
Yes.
- [51:51]
B
Okay, so that's. That's a great story, but a blood diamond, let's say the diamond comes out of the ground at 15 carats, 26. And they find it and they chop someone's arm off. And that seven people have been killed by that 15 carat stone of existing. You trim it to 1475 and it's not the same stone.
- [52:10]
A
Wait, repeat that again. If you, if you.
- [52:12]
B
Once you. Diamond. Let's say. Let's say we. We have all found out that there was a 15 carat yellow diamond that came out of the ground in Letho and five people have been killed because of it, trying to smuggle it, like the movie, you know, suggests. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. If you trim that stone half a carat, all you have to do is say it's a different stone. So.
- [52:38]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [52:40]
B
You can clean it in 10 seconds. It just makes it easier for the big companies to buy it from these people, you know, because they can.
- [52:50]
A
There's no. Once you've made it in something else, who's to say what the origin of the stone is?
- [52:56]
B
Trim it no longer. 1506, 1432. It could be a. But definitely different stuff.
- [53:04]
A
Interesting.
- [53:06]
B
It's all Glick stories.
- [53:10]
A
I mean, I don't know why we don't have some kind of side deal with a. We need to have a side deal with a. With a streaming service. I mean, we've got like.
- [53:17]
B
I don't. I don't think this is like unique to jewelry, but it manage.
- [53:23]
A
No, it's not. No, it's not. But there's some good stories. To your point. There's some really good stories. Okay, what about Pinnacle? Like, is there any accolade for you personally or just to give people more of a window into this world? Like for jewelry designers in general, that's kind of like your Oscars or your Academy Awards or a certain show or
- [53:44]
B
what I like Doing the most. What's the best thing for me, like, it could be the most complimentary deal is when I'm having cocktails, smoking a joint with other artists that I admire. When we sit around and we talk about art stuff, we talk about art, people, things. Yeah. You know, you're in the club when you're in the club. Like, I've sit with great artists, like, truly people that I admire, the fucking titans of the world. And they talk to me as if I'm on their same level. That is so gratifying. It's the most great. There's no award, no speech, no anything.
- [54:25]
A
Right.
- [54:26]
B
Hanging out with people that have invited you to be in their club.
- [54:33]
A
Right. In their. In their sort of. With. Among their other.
- [54:37]
B
Yeah. And for me, that's not always. That's not. That's not jewelry. People per se can be. And some of them are. But it's painters, it's sculpture, it's musicians, it's people in the arts that are trying to make a difference or can't help it. You know, they've got their own language. That's a very easy conversation, that it feels good.
- [54:58]
A
That's a very cool way to think about it.
- [55:00]
B
Like, I can't have more fun than going out to a shit restaurant playing dominoes with artists and, like, talking about things that would be very hard for other people to sort of get the gist of, you know, like.
- [55:14]
A
And are you having. Getting inspiration from those conversations for your own work?
- [55:17]
B
100. I learned a lot from those conversations.
- [55:19]
A
What about, though? There has to be, though. I mean, you've been in a lot of shows, your art, like, your pieces as art viewed, you know, by others. Not for it to be on, to be for sale necessarily, but to kind of build up. And I don't know much about this. I'm looking for you to tell me, but I think that there is, like. If it is like art, let's say like paintings or a sculptor or sculpture. Excuse me, like, they're. The value of that piece goes up depending on what show it's in or what museum it's been in or who's. Who's. Right. So is there an equivalent.
- [55:56]
B
I'm sure that counts. All problems, counts process.
- [55:58]
A
Like within jewelry. And like, is there an Academy Awards? Is there a. You know, for podcasters, it's the Webby Awards, which at this point I've given up. They're fitting too.
- [56:08]
B
But there are jewelry awards, certainly.
- [56:10]
A
Okay.
- [56:11]
B
I mean, and I don't really think they. I've never. I can Never get invited. Like, I don't, I don't think I've ever been invited to a jewel reward. Look, I'd go. I mean if they invited me and they said we wanted. But like I don't get invited and probably for good reason. The, those award ceremonies are generally in my book, not just about jewelry but like movies. It's. Let's give ourselves an award for like it's not coming from the place that art comes from, really comes from commerce. And if commerce is your North Star and looking in is. Isn't. I shouldn't get bored nor I don't like. It's. It's just a totally different conversation. Like, you know, if you were to ask me what I prefer, do I prefer a. A macro summer blockbuster or a micro intimate small film from Europe? I take the intimate small film from Europe, but that's not going to be a commercial success. Yeah, but that says more to me. That's more protein to me.
- [57:28]
A
Yep. We're about the savory here.
- [57:31]
B
We're about to savory people in the jewelry business that I, I do look at and, and I do, I do learn from. And there are people in painting and sculpture and all those sort of things. Yeah. And that is a great, I get a great deal of joy out of that and it. And struggle from it because sometimes, you know, you see something, you're like person got that like, you know, you don't want to copy them. You don't. But you could you acknowledge the success. That's a different language than Mysa. But I like whatever little, little explosion happened there. There's like a detonation device in that piece of jewelry. Why did it happen? You want to understand what are the ingredients that caused it to explode in that beautiful way.
- [58:14]
A
Yeah. So what's next for you? Is there.
- [58:18]
B
So we're doing a book right now which we like.
- [58:21]
A
Oh, that's great.
- [58:23]
B
So it's just, you know, sort of getting the, getting it together and what kind of tone you want. I always liked, I like. Do you know what a palimpsest is?
- [58:34]
A
What is it?
- [58:35]
B
A palimpsest. Wrote a book called Palimpsest and palimpsest is a, is when somebody writes something down on paper. Right. They write it or they draw it and then they go back and they erase part of it and they were rework it again. It's layers of, of time and ideas by the same person and they change, I think. And so you get this depth. You get a depth of experience, I think through the work and I hope that, that's where I'm going. So that the depth of light or the depth of meaning to a piece gets thicker. Like, you know, with a lot of these pieces now, especially the earrings, I'm trying to use as many different types of light as possible. So opaque light, translucent light shell, nacarous light, agilescence, which is a billowy light, transparent. The more values of light that you have in things, the more thickness and more velvet and get. And I'm. That's where I'm headed. I want to make it as deep and as plush as I possibly can through light because that's what, you know, that's what we're ultimately working with with gemstones. It's the diffusion of light or the refraction of light or the reflection of light. It's how I can make dance light dance the way I want it to dance.
- [59:57]
A
I love that. And so by doing the book, is that process. Are you.
- [60:02]
B
Yeah, I just want it to come off like a palimpsest where it looks like things I erased. I don't want it to, to be a one shot, clean, crispy affair. I want, I want, I want dirt.
- [60:13]
A
I'm just so excited about the book coming out. But, you know, more, more. Just inspired by your process, Nick.
- [60:19]
B
You know, it's. The goal is to just be you. If you can be you and people and survive, most you, you can be. Life gets so easy. You don't have to figure out who else you have to be.
- [60:35]
A
Yeah, I don't know how well I'm surviving, but I'm definitely me. So, Nick, thank you so much.
- [60:42]
B
Leslie, you're awesome. Thank you for, for having me and chatting with me. I thought many people can put up with it.
- [60:48]
A
Oh my God, I love talking to you. That brings us to the end of this episode with Nicholas Varney. A huge thank you to Nick for joining. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to like it, rate it it, rate a review and subscribe to our podcast. And also be sure to join us over on Substack at Duologue Diaries. This is where I release behind the scene peaks from my episodes. Deep dives into the episode. More exclusive content including giveaways and live Q and A with special guests where you can ask your own questions of my guests. So that's at Duologue Diaries on Substack or you can find it also on our website at Dualog. In the meantime, this is Leslie and thanks for joining Duolog. We release a new episode next Wednesday.