← Duologue with Leslie Heaney
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- [00:05]
Leslie Heaney
Hello, everyone, this is Leslie, and you're listening to the interview with Leslie Heaney. A Harvard survey found that 44% of Gen Z young adults feel like they don't matter to others, and 34% reported loneliness. A Gallup survey found that 31% of Gen Zers ages 12 to 26 often don't feel loved, 35% often don't feel supported, and 30% always or often feel like nobody knows them. Well, I know I speak for all parents when I say that these stats are truly frightening, but thankfully there's a group of women who are working to address the crisis. Today I'm speaking with Dr. Sarah Bennison. Dr. Bennison is the CEO and co founder of the Mattering Movement. She's an educational leader, activist, founder of the Trinity School in New York City's Office of Public Service, and is also now an adjunct professor at New York University. Dr. Bennison Co founded the Mattering Movement along with journalist Jenny Wallace, who's the author of the bestselling book Never Enough. When Achievement Culture Becomes Toxic and what We Can Do About It. They're joined in founding the Mattering Movement with two other remarkable women, Kimberly Kravis and Kim Towner. The Mattering Movement is working to address the pandemic of loneliness and despair that's plaguing our children and our adolescents today. In this episode, Dr. Benison and I talk about this crisis and we talk about what we can do to help our children and what we can do to even help ourselves develop a happier and more fulfilled life. Or as Dr. Bennison would say, a life that matters. And with that, here is my friend, educator, guide and sage, really, Dr. Sarah Bennison.
- [01:54]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Thanks for having me. Oh, Sarah, it's really nice of you.
- [01:58]
Leslie Heaney
So happy to see you.
- [01:59]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
I know, you too.
- [02:00]
Leslie Heaney
I'm so excited about what you're doing. I think it's so important and I think it's such a. It's an incredible story about how you kind of got together and actually really kind of honed in on what's happening with our children and adolescents in our country today and identifying what that is, which I think your co founder talks a bit about in her book. And then most importantly, figuring out kind of what steps parents and schools can take to address some of that. But for people who are listening, Sarah, in addition to being a great friend, is the CEO of the Mattering Movement. And before we talk about the Mattering Movement, I wanna talk sort of generally about what is mattering and what does it mean? To matter. So we can kind of lay the groundwork for the discussion about all the work that you're doing in it. But what is mattering and what does it mean to matter?
- [02:57]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
So you know, most people have heard or understand what it feels like when you feel truly seen, heard and valued. But a lot of people don't know the word mattering and they don't realize that there's a large body of scientific research behind this concept of mattering. And the most basic definition of mattering is feeling valued inherently at your core, regardless of external successes or failures. And this is a critical piece. Adding value to the world. So when you add value to the world around you, you feel valued and when you feel more valued, you're more likely to add value. So there's actually. It's cyclical and it's contagious and it grows. So in some ways, the first step to having a strong sense of mattering is being relied on to contribute to the world around you. And a large body of scientific research strongly correlates feelings of mattering with positive mental health outcomes.
- [04:00]
Leslie Heaney
So one of your co founders and we'll talk about how the mattering movement started and who the leadership is in your organization. But is Jennifer Wallace, who wrote this book called Never Enough when achievement culture becomes toxic and what we can do about it. And I read the book and it's very eye opening and it's actually had me pause a bit about how I am approaching my own parenting and the language that I'm using. But in it she talks about, and you mentioned it obviously the research, but around adolescence and how they connect and I think many people do actually, even adults their own self worth with kind of achievement. And I'm putting achievement kind of in quotes. Do you want to talk about that? That kind of achievement culture and the correlation between sort of external achievement or kind of resume building type of achievement and how that is connected for many adolescents and adults with their sense of self worth and how that can be very damaging.
- [05:02]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it actually relates to how I kind of came to this work and founding the mattering movement with Jennifer Wallace. My own experience. I'm a longtime educator. I've been an educator for about 30 years. And over time the focus of all my work in education was really thinking about social impact, curriculum building, programming, and trying to connect what was happening in schools and in classrooms with genuine needs in the world. And so in 2016 I went to an independent school in New York City called Trinity where I was asked to develop a kind of innovative service learning initiative, kindergarten through 12th grade. And when I went to interview for that job, they said to me, you know, we're really looking for someone to help us shift our culture here, because that's a very high achieving school. And even in 2016, what they were seeing there was really high rates of competition and comparison amongst students, fueled by the college process, Kind of a fragmentation of the community and kids really struggling with anxiety, depression, some of these mental health issues that we hear so much about. You know, many schools, of course, were starting to think about those issues then and even now, but approaching it through a very singular lens of, oh, well, we should start a wellness program. The idea there was actually that potentially creating a meaningful service program could also help to address some of these other ancillary things that were happening in the school. So I was really given a blank slate to try new things and to integrate into the daily life of students meaningful social impact work. Where they were leaving the school. And because the school is on the upper west side of New York, in a very diverse pocket of New York, I developed 16 community partners all within five blocks of the school. And so high schoolers were devoting free periods, going out into the community once a week, engaging in meaningful work, coming back. And I set this up so that the kids were always checking in with me, so they would come see me when they were leaving the building, and then they would come back. And at that time, what I was seeing anecdotally was kids coming back, saying to me, I feel so much better, I feel less stressed. I have such a better perspective, telling me about things they were learning, conversations they were having with both adults and other kids that they were just meeting for the first time, getting out of their comfort zones, kind of recalibrating this grind culture that they were heavily steeped in on a daily basis. And at the time. So I was kind of noting this and starting to see, in addition to kind of shifting the culture at school around more of the common good and that sort of mission, I also was seeing these profound mental health benefits. But at the time, I didn't know the language around mattering. But when I met Jennifer Wallace, when she was in the final stages of writing, Never enough, she and I got to talking. And she started telling me that what she discovered in her first of its kind parenting survey that 6,500 families completed all over the United States in all kinds of schools, public, private. She looked at the top 25% income bracket, but all different geograph regions and different kinds of schools. She Started asking the question, who are the healthy strivers? Who are the kids that are able to navigate the pressures that they're under and still have a healthy sense of self worth and not struggle as much with mental health issues like anxiety and depression? And who were the kids who really, really struggled? And she found in her research that the secret ingredient was the same thing that I had witnessed anecdotally, which was that those kids had a strong sense of mattering. They understood their unique gifts, and they were relied on to add value to the world through taking those gifts and doing something beyond themselves. And that's what yielded these mental health benefits. So I realized what I was witnessing at the school in New York was I started to call mattering in action.
- [09:11]
Leslie Heaney
So that was what you found in having that conversation with her, was that her research was supporting what you had seen kind of live on the ground with your own experiment with the programs that you were doing.
- [09:23]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Exactly.
- [09:24]
Leslie Heaney
At Trinity. And was probably interesting for those kids too, that would leave and then come back. They were probably, depending on where they were volunteering, getting really positive feedback. Right. That kind of. And feedback that them being there really mattered to the people that were at that organization. And they probably thought, gosh, I've never had that kind of positive feedback loop coming from me. Just being a part of something that wasn't connected to grades or academic performance or athletic performance, which are two kind of common measurements that kids look at Right. When they're in school.
- [09:59]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Exactly. It wasn't about self advancement. It was really about something beyond themselves. And at the same time, I really started thinking about all of that as a leadership incubator where kids were learning these extremely valuable leadership skills that you need, or life, you call them life skills. But even things, you know, people talk about developing cross cultural competencies.
- [10:25]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [10:26]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
How do you talk to people in different, you know, areas? Organizing things, taking initiative and leadership, leaving your own comfort zone, going out into the world. So they were, you know, I was starting to think about this. What was, you know, people would originally say, community service work is kind of, everyone should do community service. No, it became much more than that. And it was kind of meeting all these other needs that kids were having.
- [10:49]
Leslie Heaney
What was so in Jennifer Wallace's research, was there, you mentioned it was the top 25% income bracket at different schools across the country. And was she finding that those kids were most at risk of the negative kind of mental health consequences of being so focused on achievement, or was it. Did she just happen to focus on that group? I guess what I'm trying to get at is that universal, this experience of kind of toxic achievement culture, or is it really very much associated with the 25% top income bracket?
- [11:24]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
The focus of Jenny's book was on that demographic intentionally because it came off some other research she was doing for an article she had written in the Washington Post, which cited two large scientific studies that named kids in high achieving schools as an at risk group along with kids who live in poverty, kids with incarcerated parents. And the newly added at risk group were those kids. So that kind of propelled Jenny on her, and she should speak more to this about her own research process. But mattering, aside from our need for food and shelter, mattering is our most basic human need that everyone shares. So in that way, it's very powerful. It's not confined to any demographic and achievement culture, as we've seen from the mattering movement, because the mattering movement's mission is really to reach all kinds of kids. And actually in the pilot that we just ran in the spring, 40% of the schools that we worked with serve predominantly low income students. So we're working with kids across the socioeconomic and geographic spectrum and we're finding that achievement culture exists everywhere and it manifests itself in different ways depending on life circumstances. But in some cases, you can find even more acute achievement culture pressures or toxic achievement cultures in places where kids are the first in their family.
- [12:59]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [12:59]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
First generation, first generation, or navigating other kinds of cultural boundaries or, you know, different kinds of situations. It depends on the kids. But it's certainly a universal need. And also we see the toxic effects of achievement culture everywhere.
- [13:18]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, I have this quote that I wrote down from the book. Just, you know, there was a comment made that, you know, young people, their sense of mattering is so contingent on their performance and they don't feel like they can ever perform well enough. So if you're chasing, not that you can't achieve, you know, great grades or all that thing, but if the goalpost keeps moving, right, if you're keeping and you're not able to find that kind of sense of, for lack of a better word, achievement or satisfaction within you, it's just, it's an ongoing process, right, or an ongoing race, I guess, for these kids. And I think that part of her research, and the research maybe that she was citing in that article was this Harvard Graduate School of Education report. Is that one of the ones that you're thinking about where it says it looked at mental health of Gen Z and found that young adults ages 18 to 25 are suffering from anxiety and depression at about twice the rate of younger teens with the guardrails of parents and the predictability of school, they seem to feel adrift without it. Sorry. And the reporter attributed that to a lack of mattering. And that makes great sense. Right. Because when you remove kind of the. He used the term guardrails or the parameters for what is deemed success, if you don't have that kind of built within you, that sense of mattering, and then you're out in the world where there isn't kind of a very clear roadmap of what does it mean to achieve. Right. Because in school it's like you get the A or you're trying out for this team. It can really set adolescents and young adults adrift.
- [14:54]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Yeah.
- [14:54]
Leslie Heaney
I mean, I've seen it anecdotally, they just kind of get out of school and they're not quite sure what to do next because there isn't a clear laid out path like there is, you know, within a. Within an academic setting.
- [15:06]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Yeah, yeah. And I think the key to it is, and these are the words that Jenny uses in her book is untangling self worth from achievement.
- [15:15]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [15:16]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
And you know, that's why the important thing about mattering is not only feeling valued, it's about adding value. Because if it's only about feeling valued, oftentimes that's interpreted that you're valued when you continue to perform.
- [15:31]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [15:31]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
When you get the A, when you get the lead in the play, when you're on the varsity team and when your self worth is caught up in that, you need to keep performing and inevitably you will fall at some point. And so the implications for your self perception and self worth can be really, really damaging. So by adding value, it's a reminder again, in Jenny's words, it's like social proof that you matter. Because just as we were giving the example before, when a kid is going out into the community and adding value somewhere that is really genuine, they are reminded by that situation that they are enough for who they are, that they have great gifts inside that are apart from any achievement and that they can contribute to the world in meaningful ways.
- [16:27]
Leslie Heaney
We talked about sort of that give back piece. But what is the best way for kids to feel that they matter? Is it participating in some of these, this kind of work outside of their kind of constructed school or academic environment? What is the best step or best way for them to look for that?
- [16:50]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
You know, it's not that hard. That's the great thing about mattering. It's very actionable and small things go a long way. And Jenny writes about this very eloquently in her book. And there are lots of examples, but one that's always struck me, and Jenny has talked to a lot of psychologists and educators and researchers in coming up with a lot of these ideas. But one core idea is to make the implicit explicit. So, you know, parents often talk to their kids and praise them for performing when they do well on things. And encouraging your child, of course, is a good thing. But there's a very different message when you say to your child, I want you to know that your worth never changes, Regardless of successes or failures. Your worth never changes. And messaging that in really clear ways to kids, even as simple as what I just said, research shows that it actually goes a long way to reminding kids the culture. Our kids are in cultures every single day that are messaging to them. You only matter when. You only matter when you achieve. You're in this competitive environment. So, you know, Jenny talks a lot about home being a haven from those pressures that our kids are feeling all the time. And the other thing is, you know, people think, when we use the term social impact, people think you have to do something huge. You know, you have to create a big project or start an organization or something. No, actually, the research shows that small actions, not only psychologically, but also in terms of the ripple effect of impact, are extremely important. So whether it's writing a nice note to a friend, making eye contact, holding the door for someone, these are things that we're trying to teach kids in school are really important to do, and they increase your mattering. Because even when you hold the door for someone, you make the person you held the door for feel like they matter. Maybe you make eye contact, and then you are reminded, oh, I matter. So this all happens unconsciously, but you actually get an endorphin boost from that small action. So there are lots of little ways that this can happen.
- [19:04]
Leslie Heaney
So, you know, you mentioned kind of having the home be the safe haven. And I want to talk sort of about what we can do as parents to kind of foster that sense of mattering. Because in reading the book, I think it's very difficult for parents to sort of thread the needle or kind of walk that tightrope between, first of all, having conversations with your teenager or middle schooler. They're studying for a test. The night before you pick them up, I would say, how'd it go? How was the test? Right. Never thinking that that was adding pressure or making any of them feel as if their performance was linked to how I would feel about them. But in reading the book now, I'm like, what's for lunch? I mean, I'm not even gonna touch it. Even if I spent two hours the night before quizzing them, they asked me to quiz them on the vocab word. So, you know, and I think part of this. This achievement culture and this kind of kids linking their worth with their performance, I think is a result of our generation. This is at least my own thought coming out of reading the book is at least in my house. If my parents knew where I was, that was. I mean, they didn't know where I was. They didn't know if I was doing my homework. I mean, there wasn't helicopter parenting that we see today. And I think that's very common in our generation to be that sort of a parent. Even though there's a lot of research and books coming out that say that we actually shouldn't be doing that. Right. We need to sort of let them praise their effort, not the outcome. We need to let them fail. Right. So they can learn from that. And so what can we do where we're, as you said a little bit earlier, encouraging them and supporting them but not sending them the wrong message that, you know, their performance or the outcome of what they're working on matters to us to the extent that it relates to how much we value them.
- [21:07]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Yeah. Yeah, It's.
- [21:08]
Leslie Heaney
Does that make any sense?
- [21:09]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Yes, totally.
- [21:10]
Leslie Heaney
I'm sure you, you know, I know you very well, and I know your three children, and I. You're an incredible parent. And I. But I. I'm sure there are times when you ask, just because you're making conversation, how did the tests go? Or, you know, we, you know, all those things that we're. We think we're just being conscientious and thoughtful, and we are. That's our intention. But it might be being heard by our children or internalized in a different way.
- [21:34]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
It's really, really hard. But one thing I will say that I have tweaked in my home, that's helped. I used to always think, my kids are so busy, I'm not going to ask them to set the table or help load the dishes, go off, go get your homework started, whatever. And now I realize that if they take five or ten minutes to contribute to the family, it kind of sets them up emotionally for success, whether they know it or not success. It sets them up to. People are using these. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I'm perpetuating achievement Culture. But it's like, I tell myself, it gives them a mattering boost before they have to sit down, you know, and do A, B or C. So. But it's. But it's. I mean, it's extremely hard. And also, we are in a really different environment, even in terms of macroeconomics. And the competition that our children are under and we're under as parents is unprecedented.
- [22:40]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [22:40]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
So we're operating in a complete. You know, it's like swimming in different waters in a way, than our parents were.
- [22:45]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, for sure.
- [22:46]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Yeah.
- [22:47]
Leslie Heaney
And between just sort of the. I think the generational differences and parenting, I think as a reaction to 70s parenting and early 80s parenting. And then you have social media. You have all these different factors. Right. That are putting, you know, pressure on kids, seeing what they. Oh, do I have to have look like that or own that on Instagram or have as many likes, all of those things, in addition to them feeling like they have to be achieving, you know, in school, not only socially, with all those other things that are on social media, but academically and athletically and.
- [23:20]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Yeah.
- [23:21]
Leslie Heaney
All the other, you know, parts of their lives outside of the social part.
- [23:26]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Yeah.
- [23:27]
Leslie Heaney
Okay, so let's talk about the mattering movement, how to get started. Who are your fellow co founders?
- [23:34]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
A friend said, you know, so many parents want to know about how to engage their kids in meaningful service work. Would you come give a small talk just based on your experience?
- [23:44]
Leslie Heaney
This is coming out of your work at Trinity?
- [23:46]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
This was. Yeah, yeah. And so I gave this. I was talking to a small group just at a friend's apartment, and Jenny Wallace was there. And as I was talking about my work and citing different researchers I had been influenced by and things like that, I could see her nodding and it was clear. And then she started telling me about.
- [24:07]
Leslie Heaney
The book that she.
- [24:07]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
The book that she was just finishing. So within a few weeks, you know, we just called each other and said we should start a movement around this. I had been looking personally, I was starting to think, you know, if you're a kid who's lucky enough to go to a school like where I worked at Trinity, and you had all those opportunities, that was amazing. But there's so many kids that don't have that. And I was trying to figure out, because I felt like over those years, I had all this anecdotal evidence and even empirical evidence, because I'd been tracking, you know, kind of statistics of what we were seeing with kids through the years of developing the service program there. But I was thinking, how can we take that model and kind of amplify it and reach different kinds of kids and different kinds of schools. And in my own background, I started my teaching career in New York City public schools in the South Bronx. And I had done a bunch of different work with different communities. So when we started the mattering movement, part of the idea was how can we take the research from Jenny's book around mattering and all. She's interviewed so many experts, really across fields, my experience as an educator, and bring these ideas together. And initially we actually were focusing on parents and we have parent toolkits, but we always had teachers in schools in mind and students. And pretty quickly after we launched, we started getting a lot of outreach from teachers, especially saying, you know, really from all over the world saying, you know, do you have tools and resources? And it just highlighted the kind of increasingly complex mental health landscape that teachers are facing on a daily basis and their, you know, real desire to have better tools to address those things. So, anyway, so a couple of other people who were at that initial talk stepped forward and were very interested in becoming more involved, Kimberly Kravis being one of them, and Kim Towner. And they have very complimentary skill sets. So the four of us kind of started. And then we also have an amazing advisory group, also people who were there that day who expressed interest in being involved and have been very supportive. And then we have this great group of academic advisors, really top notch academic advisors who are sounding boards for us and have helped us develop things.
- [26:24]
Leslie Heaney
So you all get together, you find that you all have sort of this common interest, right? And passion and kind of trying to figure out how you can address this issue that you've seen working at Trinity that Jennifer Wallace has seen with her research. And I'm sure that your two other co founders have seen it with their own children at schools and in their own homes. And then how do you start to develop? So you've talked about your parent toolkits, you talked about working with schools. You have toolkits also for schools. But how did you begin to develop that curriculum? And was it based on the research that you. I know you have your advisory boards, but. And I want to kind of have you give me some real, like, steps and tips on. But we talked about the parent piece and you were like, I'm like, I just made a note setting the table, writing a thing, you know, like those kinds of things. But how did you go about developing those toolkits? And what was that process like? And I'm sure there are evolving Right. Every day.
- [27:21]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, essentially with the. With our curriculum. So we have. It's in three parts. We have lessons for students, modules for teachers. Think of those as like professional development. But we're thinking a lot about teacher mattering because, as you probably know, teachers are leaving the profession in droves. And then we have a parent companion because we really see ourselves at the intersection of families, schools, teachers and students. And part of our goal is because mattering is this deep human need. It's a very powerful lens, framework and language and entry point for all of these different constituencies to think about not only what we've talked about in terms of mattering itself, but as an umbrella need. Mattering encompasses things like community, belonging, self mastery, all of these other pieces that are so important in school life and in home life. So the curriculum draws on some of the research from Jenny's book and then some of the lessons that I had developed because I've been developing curriculum, really K to 12 curriculum for years now. And so I have actually tried a lot of different types of lessons with different age groups. And so our curriculum is focused on 6th to 12th grade, which is kind of a broad age range. But we ran a pilot this spring with 11 schools which reached 1400 students. And I can't remember the exact number of teachers, but this was a very diverse group of schools. And so we tried out these lessons on all these different grades. And the other thing I realized through my work is that, you know, a school schedule is so packed and there's so much pressure now for content and teachers feel that too. So to think about adding anything else on is completely overwhelming. But many schools do have time built into the school day where there's room to do something more meaningful. So some schools have advisory programs. And in my experience, it's been kind of a struggle to find short lessons that can, you know where you can. And sometimes you have a great advisor who naturally has conversations with kids about social, emotional issues or things that matter to them. But sometimes you have teachers who just aren't comfortable doing that and could really use the scaffolding to have those conversations. So that was really my model because I've also been an advisor for many years. So there are short lessons and so it's drawing on all of this, but everything is science based. And that's really important to us because there are many trends in education and we really want to emphasize that this is not just another cute name and another trend that's going to come and go, but that actually the research behind mattering goes back to the 1980s and it's actually increasing now. More and more people are thinking about mattering, talking about it, doing research around it.
- [30:22]
Leslie Heaney
So give me an example. When you talked about sort of the. By the way, I'm assuming sort of the 6th to 12th grade pilot is you're targeting those grades where the achievement culture begins to really kind of kick in. Right. I think around sixth grade. Just give us sort of an example of a curriculum.
- [30:41]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
So we've worked with a designer to basically take ideas and put them into a very interactive. It's kind of plug and play for teachers. Also thinking about lots of different kinds of teachers who might access this curriculum. So it's essentially, it's in kind of slide form, but with interactive pieces in it. And then it's filled with activities. So it's not just a teacher saying to a child, the research says this you should do. It's activities that the class can do together to create community and connection in the class, even fun activities that a classroom can do together. And one of the interesting lessons, and this is something I learned through this, is I was talking to one of our academic advisors who teaches at the University of Miami. His name is Isaac Priltenski. He's one of the leading experts in the world really on mattering. And I said to him, you know, Isaac, is there a difference between mattering and belonging? Because having worked in schools for so long, you know, belonging is such a critical issue and it's a topic of conversation. And he just looked at me and he said, have you ever technically belonged to a group but felt that you didn't matter?
- [31:52]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
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Dr. Sarah Bennison
And that really struck me because I think that happens a lot where not only kids, but adults are technically part of something, but don't feel truly seen or valued or are scared to speak up. So one of our lessons, for example, is about mattering and belonging. And through a series of activities, teaching kids about how we can go beyond belonging to create a classroom environment where each individual feels truly seen, heard and valued. And another lesson, and this is one step in doing that, is, you know, 80% of people don't know their innate strengths, especially kids.
- [32:32]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [32:33]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
And there are very easy tools to measure that. There's something called the Via Strength survey. It's a 10 minute survey and I've actually done this with kids. And it's incredible for young people to discover, you know, their innate creativity or their innate problem solving skills or their empathy or just to put language around the skills that are at your core, you know, not something that you're trying to work toward or achieve, but just who you are. And knowing your gifts is a first step in mattering because then you can take that inherent gift and think about how you can use it to contribute to the world around you. The first step is identifying the individual gifts and strengths in your classroom. And the second step is learning about those gifts with the people in your classroom and understanding that you are a community as a classroom. And so in that lesson, kids actually write down their top three core strengths and can post them on the wall. The teacher has a choice how they want to do it. But the idea is that in this room we have all this diverse range of strengths and how can we know each other in deeper ways and recognize in our work together over the course of the year. For example, that Leslie is a great creative problem solver. So the next time I have a problem, I can go to her and say, you know, I'm really struggling with this.
- [34:00]
Leslie Heaney
I need to take this. I mean I might, I might. I might have.
- [34:04]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
You should take it. I've taken it.
- [34:06]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, well, I did. It wasn't until I never had done well in standardized tests. And when I was studying finally with a tutor for the lsat. Yeah the difference in my score between my untimed and my timed was dramatic. And this tutor here in New York who's still around, I can't believe it called advantage testing. They said, have you ever been tested for a learning disability? And I said no. Anyway, turns out I have a reading speed in like the second percentile, which is. I was always the kid who wasn't finishing the test. But in that when I finally had the testing done, it turns out I could be a court reporter. My typing skills are in the. Whatever I found out, I'm like, if all else fails, I guess I could be a lounge singer or a court report. I have those two things. But does make you feel good to know what your strengths are.
- [34:49]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Isn't that so interesting though? Because for years you were probably, you know, you had learned how to navigate your way around that.
- [34:56]
Leslie Heaney
I did. I did. Of just sort of asking for extra time from teachers in the class or they'd let me stay after. And I never. It wasn't. It was really just hit me with standardized tests. I think the court reporting thing being the only positive thing that came out of that test. I'll add. But anyway I. So kids then. So then out of that. So they'll say I'm a creative thinker. I'm a. What other kinds of or I, you.
- [35:20]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Know, I naturally have empathy, I'm a great empath, or I'm trying to think of other examples. But the idea is that every person has superpowers.
- [35:33]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [35:34]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
And what is your superpower? And one girl said that her superpower was that she was the forgiveness girl.
- [35:41]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, that's amazing.
- [35:44]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
And so you don't think of the ability to forgive naturally as a superpower or strength. And you don't have time in a regular school day to talk about these things. But at the end of sixth grade, guess what that girl's going to remember about her sixth grade year? That she realized her superpower is she's the forgiveness girl.
- [36:05]
Leslie Heaney
Well, you know, it is so important, I think, and I'm so proud of the work that you're doing because, you know, our children spend, you know, our youngest is at a school in Nashville. He just started a month ago, God help them. It's a real, it's a change of pace for him for sure. But he has to be there at 7:30 in the morning and he gets home at 6:00 at night. And so if you're handing over your child to a place for 11 hours a day, you want to know that they're, that they're having, that it's not, they're not just being seen and heard by how they're performing on the athletic field in our case, which, you know, isn't necessarily, you know, a place where we're, we are high achieving or, you know, or in the classroom that they're having conversations and they're learning about what really, really matters. Right. Which is who you are as a person and your character and all those wonderful things that, that matter and that should matter to their classmates and to their school. And so having that curriculum embedded. So for parents who are listening, you know, I still want to, I have to take better notes about how I need to balance, you know, the questions that I ask and the things that I say. So I'm not sending the wrong message to my kids if I ask them how their test went. But what can we do if we want to work on fostering mattering in our own home? You mentioned sort of set the table, writing the notes and I know they can also. So I want to get some other tips from you and then I want to sort of direct anyone listening about where they can go to get more information. Parents.
- [37:36]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Yeah.
- [37:36]
Leslie Heaney
From the mattering movement. I know obviously you have a website and all that great stuff, but what was the thing you said to say.
- [37:41]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
That your, your Worth never changes.
- [37:43]
Leslie Heaney
Your worth never changes.
- [37:44]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Yeah. Yeah. You know, the other interesting thing, just getting back to the curriculum is that in our pilot, we conducted pre and post surveys that we worked a long time to develop, and we have called out really, really interesting data. And one of the things is simply about being able to have these conversations, because it's not. It's not only that we want our kids to be good people and care about these social, emotional things. It's also what's top of mind for kids, what they think about.
- [38:14]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [38:15]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Their relationships and how to navigate all that. And for teachers, too. And so one of the questions we asked for both teachers and students is having taken our pilot lessons, which is just three lessons, do you feel more comfortable and confident talking about mental health or social emotional issues at school? And the vast majority of both students and teachers said yes after these three lessons. And we also asked teachers, do you feel more comfortable and confident leading these kinds of discussions in your classroom? Because to your point, our kids are in school for most of their waking hours. So not to add. This is not meant to add more on a teacher's plate because teachers are stretched so thinly. But as I was saying, there are easy, very accessible ways of opening up conversations. And that's what we're trying to do where you really can kind of expand. You know, there aren't enough mental health professionals right now for kids. And so there's a real shortage. There's a real shortage. And so a lot of academic institutions are thinking about innovative ways of kind of magnifying mental health support and expanding definitions of what that looks like. So, for example, on college campuses that some colleges have started kind of peer to peer mental health counseling programs like Hamilton College is one of them. I've been following their director of counseling. And I'm not saying that's appropriate for younger kids, but I'm just saying if we can help to carve out space and scaffolding to have some of these conversations in school and to sort of expand how we're thinking about these mental health emotional issues, it can only be helpful. And it looks so far from our data, like our curriculum is really allowing students and teachers to do that, which is one of the most encouraging things, because once you can start a conversation, that's the starting point.
- [40:12]
Leslie Heaney
And I think giving teachers the tools and the framework to have those conversations in a formalized curriculum, because teachers don't want to have the parents come in and say, gosh, why are you asking my child about how they feel about something? I don't know how, but they want to know that there's some framework around. It's not being done without. You talked about your curriculum being based in scientific research and having some of these programs be tested through pilot programs. All that stuff is important, I think, to kind of give teachers the legitimacy and framework of what they're doing is an important structured curriculum and that they have a real guide and they have something that they can refer to. So on the parent front, write a note, set the table. What other kinds of things? What's happening in the Benison McKeel's household? What else should I be doing? We have been. We do have chores and we do.
- [41:12]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Have, like, that's good.
- [41:14]
Leslie Heaney
Watering the plants. I've been accused. And letting the dogs out at six in the morning on weekends.
- [41:19]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Okay, that's good.
- [41:20]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, that's good. But I feel like they think that they matter just because I'm asking them to do things that I don't want to do. But anyway, that's a different, A different thing. Getting kids involved in things that are bigger than themselves outside of themselves, reminding them that they do matter outside of whatever else is happening in their friend group or on Instagram or Snap or in the classroom, that they're getting really positive feedback and a sense of worth from volunteering at that food bank or writing the note or looking someone in the eye or all of those things. That was just the one thing that I took away but didn't see it at the time as mattering. But it is sort of getting to. It is a mattering activity. Right. That's sort of what the. Is the root of it.
- [42:14]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Yeah. Yeah. It's actually more powerful, even the small things, than I even realized. And now that I'm so steeped in all this research and work, I. And you know, I'm teaching this class now at NYU Undergrads, and I've been trying a few things in terms of mattering with them and even taking time in class because again, the content pressure is huge. Like, I'm teaching a history seminar. We got a lot to go through. But I really have been taking time at the beginning of each class to say, do you know each other's names? And most of them don't. So now I'm saying we're going to take. I want you to. Everyone stand up. I want you to greet the person next to you. If you don't know their name, ask what their name is, look each other in the eye and you know, let's start our class in that way. We've done this three times now. The point is, before then, I never would have taken the time, especially with that age group.
- [43:10]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [43:10]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
You know, I would have just been like, okay, take out your books, let's get. You know, I've really recalibrated that because I think that deeper learning happens. I'm not detracting from what they're gonna learn.
- [43:21]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [43:21]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Because when you're setting that tone and people feel valued and invested and they're in a community with each other, they're ready for deep learning. I really firmly believe that.
- [43:32]
Leslie Heaney
So that's so interesting. And that makes great sense. Right. Having them take the time to get to know each other. They'll be more know, more likely to raise their hand.
- [43:43]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Yeah.
- [43:43]
Leslie Heaney
You know, feel comfortable and build that sort of sense of community within your own classroom.
- [43:49]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Yeah. Yeah.
- [43:50]
Leslie Heaney
Okay. So parents listing can go get your parent toolkit. They can, you know, make sure that their kids are engaging in activities or conversations at home around just their contributions in the house being seen as being important.
- [44:06]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Right.
- [44:06]
Leslie Heaney
You talked about setting the table, making eye contact.
- [44:09]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Rely on your kids. Rely on your kids to do something. It doesn't have to be big. It can be opening the door for the dog. Let the dogs out.
- [44:16]
Leslie Heaney
Okay.
- [44:17]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Even that when your kids are relied on, they. It's like social proof that they matter. It will booster their overall mental health and well being if they're relied on.
- [44:30]
Leslie Heaney
And then for schools, for people who are listening, who want to get their children's schools involved, what does that process look like? How do you go about engaging with schools and partnering with them with your curriculum?
- [44:44]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
So we just finalized the curriculum following this whole pilot and incorporating the data and everything. So now it's available for schools. So we have a lot of interested schools reaching out to us and signing on. The mattering movement is a 501 and there is a charge for this curriculum so that we can bring our work to underserved communities. But we've tried to make it very accessible and our real aim is to reach as many students in schools as possible. And because our pilot reached schools across the United States, even one in Jordan, in the Middle east, and it was boarding day, more progressive. One school for neurodiverse students in Atlanta. In a small group, we had two Title 1 public schools. A rural public school in Indiana has just bought the curriculum. So.
- [45:37]
Leslie Heaney
And how are they finding you online? Word of mouth or.
- [45:40]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
It's mainly word of mouth right now. I mean, we're a very lean team. We're all volunteers at this point. So we don't have a big, you know, marketing department or anything like that. It's, you know, we have Follow us on Mattering Movement on Instagram. We're kind of documenting what we're doing. And of course Jenny Wallace is out speaking to a lot of schools.
- [46:02]
Leslie Heaney
I saw on your website there said speaking events for 2024 and there was maybe a hundred listed. And I don't know if it's Jenny Wallace or you, but that could be another avenue. People listening. If a school doesn't want to jump into a curriculum, they could probably reach out to you and maybe one of you might be available to speak to their school or talk to their parent group or get involved in that way.
- [46:31]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Yes, and I'm doing more and more of that and Jenny and I sometimes go together and we just did a set of opening meetings at a school in Minneapolis and I'll be up at Hotchkiss over family weekend speaking. And so, yeah, we're doing more and more of that. And a lot of parents associations are also very interested in reading Never Enough and then following up with actions. Because really the mattering movement is putting into creating bite sized actions from the research in Jenny's book, plus my experience as an educator. So if you read this book and say, oh, this is great, but what can I do? Come see the mattering movement. Right. Because our parent toolkits are structured on what to think about what to try. And then we're eager to get the word out to school. So, you know, go to your. Anyone listening? Go to your school, tell them about what we're doing.
- [47:25]
Leslie Heaney
Who do they talk to? I mean, you could go to the head of school or the principal or whatever, the dean of maybe student life or academics. You could try them. All right.
- [47:36]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes we have the director of counseling reaches out to us. You know, it's really whoever is thinking about curriculum at your school is probably the right person. But again, you know, this is designed for advisory wellness initiatives we've worked. One of our pilot programs is called Breakthrough Miami, which is actually an educational enrichment program that identifies. It's sort of like prep for prep. They identify promising students and offer academic enrichment so that they can go to competitive high schools and things. So we just piloted with them as well. And that's an after school program. So it's. The curriculum is very adaptable to many different kinds of environments.
- [48:27]
Leslie Heaney
So what's next? So if you and Jenny and KK and Kim having glasses of wine and are up late and talking about like if the skies are the limit. Like if there's anything that we could do next for the mattering movement or where we'd like to see their curriculum or what we'd like to. To be able to do next to kind of spread this movement, what would it be?
- [48:49]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
I mean, I think the main goal overall is just reach. We really all feel passionately that this really is a tangible pathway to not only improve mental health, but community connection. And coming off of these Covid years and what we're seeing are a lot of fragmented school communities and some lack of trust and things like that. So, you know, this is a pathway forward. So we just really want to get the word out to as many schools as we can. Diverse schools. We're also thinking a lot about the kind of bookend. So in a way, by the time you get to junior year in high school, I don't want to say it's too late, but it would have been great to start learning about mattering in fourth grade.
- [49:35]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [49:36]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
So our curriculum could be very easily adapted to lower school. So at some point I'm going to be thinking about creating versions for younger kids. And then on the other hand, also thinking about undergrads. It's not just for thinking about a classroom curriculum, but even things like residential life for boarding schools or even colleges where you have student prefects or student leaders. You know, mattering again is such a powerful framework because what. What wouldn't you want except a dorm or a community within school where people really feel like they matter and people can learn how to foster that. So those are some of the things we're thinking about. There are also life phases where people are especially vulnerable to low levels of mattering. One are teenagers and now also young adults. The other are people like us.
- [50:30]
Leslie Heaney
I was going to say empty nesters.
- [50:31]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Empty nesters.
- [50:32]
Leslie Heaney
I'm not there yet, but close.
- [50:34]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Exactly. And then retirement age people.
- [50:37]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [50:38]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
So, you know, longer, longer term, there's just so much potential and opportunity for mattering at every age. I mean, I can see, you know, mattering groups for older people or thinking about new ways of structuring activities and assisted living or, you know, we've talked about, you know, in our, like pie in the sky conversations, we talk about all this kind of stuff.
- [51:03]
Leslie Heaney
Well, I applaud you so much for what you're doing because I know.
- [51:08]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Thank you.
- [51:09]
Leslie Heaney
As we talked about what important work it is. But I also know that you have a thousand other things that you're doing. So having you lead this charge with your co founders is really a tremendous act of service to all different communities and so many communities. And it's really terrific what you're doing. So congratulations for what an incredible effort and incredible work and I'm very excited for my parent toolkit. I just can't wait to watch this movement pick up and get real momentum across the country.
- [51:43]
Dr. Sarah Bennison
Well, thank you so much, Leslie for having me. It's such a treat and I'm so grateful to talk to you about all this. I really appreciate it.
- [51:50]
Leslie Heaney
Well, thank you Sarah. Thank you for coming. That brings us to the end of this episode of the interview. A huge thank you again to Sarah Bennison for joining and as always, thank you again for listening. If you enjoyed the show, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and follow us on Instagram at the Interview with Leslie Heaney. A new podcast is released every Wednesday and until then, this is Leslie and don't forget to join the interview.