← Duologue with Leslie Heaney
Duologue with Leslie Heaney
Creede, USA: A Community in Conversation - with Kahane Cooperman and Innbo Shim
00:54:39
This episode is the perfect antidote to whatever you’re feeling the day after election day… in today’s episode, I sit down with two documentary filmmakers, Kahane Cooperman and Innbo Shim, to discuss their film, Creede USA. Creede is a small, remote...
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- [00:03]
A
Hey, everybody, this is Leslie, and you're listening to Duologue. This episode is really the perfect antidote to whatever you're feeling the day after election Day. In today's conversation, I sit down with two documentary filmmakers, Kahane, Cooperman, Inbo Shim, about their film, Creed usa. And it's a film that proves that differing political sides can find common ground and live harmoniously. This is true, folks, and respectfully with one another. So Crete is this small, remote mining town in Colorado, and it really serves as a microcosm of what's happening in the broader country today with differing political sides and debates. The town has this conservative mining families that have been there for generations, and then more progressive, liberal theater people that come into town during the summer. Thousands come in in the summer for their amazing repertory theater program. So this documentary kind of features these many individuals and perspectives that live in this small town of 300 year round. But with this huge influx in the summertime and how these residents are forced to confront each other and each other's differing views, not only does the film kind of COVID these really extraordinary individuals, but it also, in real time, follows these school board meetings that are tackling some of the pressing political hot button topics of our time. Issues like gun control, guns and schools, and gender identity, curriculum are all coming to a head and being discussed in these board meetings. But what's so extraordinary about this town is that its residents have these vehemently opposing political perspectives, yet they still are able to maintain respect for and civility toward one another. And in doing so, they've created a really strong and thriving community. And Creed. So this film, Creed usa, is really a love letter, in my view, to this community. And it's an amazing, amazing independent film. Both the Story and its creators, Kahane and InBo, are these two amazing female filmmakers behind the story. And both the Story and its filmmakers are truly inspirational. So in Bo Kahane, I'm so happy to see you both and so happy to be having this conversation as we were connected through a mutual friend. And I believe my friend Sam is involved with an organization where she sees sort of films early on and said, you would love this, because I was really interested in having a conversation about how we as Americans can have more civil discourse around areas of policy where we disagree. And this documentary that you did is just such an interesting and inspiring kind of example of that, I think, in a way. And so before we dive into the subject of the documentary or how you all went about filming it and the story you were trying to tell, tell us a little bit about the history of Creed. Right. This film is called Creed and it's a town in Colorado. But give us some background about it.
- [03:08]
B
I'll start off it's Creed usa. And it's called that because it is the name of this town. It's Creed with an e on the end. Creed is this incredible, very small 300 person town in rural, mountainous Colorado at 9,000ft. It's in the San Juan mountains and it's at the headwaters of the Rio Grande. It's the kind of place that's so off the grid that you're not going to pass it really on the way to anywhere else. You need to kind of want to go there. And it's got this incredible history. It was the last silver boom town in Colorado. It had a silver boom in the, in the. In 1890, 92. And mining became the economy there for decades and decades. And around the 1960s the economy was faltering. And this had been a town that was like a real. Had incredible wild west lore. Lots of historic events happened there. And it was a little rough on the edges. The kind of look of a town that when you imagine in a western American town, this is what you imagine is this Main street and the cliffs and everything.
- [04:24]
A
It's almost like tumbleweeds could go down.
- [04:29]
B
Tumbleweeds could. And, and probably have. And I've. Because we've seen them. But that being said, it's an incredibly charming and alluring town at this point in history. But back then it was more rough around the edges. And by the 1960s, mining, which was really the main source of income for this, for the whole community and the economy for the town was really petering out. And so someone in the town, a preacher in the town had an idea. And that idea.
- [05:06]
A
Honey, sorry to interrupt you. Wasn't it like at a chamber of commerce meeting or something? They thought they made this decision that they have to come up with.
- [05:13]
B
It was the jcs, which is the Junior Chamber of Commerce. It was made up of a group of all miners. And the preacher in the town approached them and said, I have a great idea. This was 1966. I have a great idea. Let's have a theater company here. And the miners were like, what are you talking about? He said, we can get college students to come in. It'll be a great opportunity for them and, and they can start it up. Well, there was resistance. That was something different. Most of the miners, the jcs weren't that interested. But luckily the president of the jcs, a Miner himself, Paul Dunkle said, you know, let's, let's give it a try. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but let's try it. So they look like a real life.
- [05:57]
A
Waiting for Guffman, you know, like that Christopher Guest. Right.
- [06:01]
B
A lot of people are making that comparison. The theater itself is not waiting for Guffman at all. But the bottom line is they did get. They put up notices around universities and colleges in the area. Only got one response from the university of Kansas, an 18 year old in the theater department. And he and his 19 year old buddy drove to Creed, said we could start a summer theater for you. And they all shook hands. And thus was the very, very beginning of the Creed Repertory Theater. 60 years later, that theater still exists and in this town which holds very tightly to its mining heritage, its traditions. And so it's a very interesting place to spend time with a camera for the last few years.
- [06:50]
A
Oh my God. So I mean here it's like you mentioned, you kind of described the town and its, its history, its economic history as being a mining town. But the setting of it, it's as you describe, it's this old western town and it's got this kind of striking mountain, like sort of in it. Right. So it's incredible backdrop. And then they have this economic sort of downturn because I think the last. Did the last mine, maybe the last mine closed maybe in the 80s, but most of the mines were closing. They had no. Nothing was really happening. And then I love it that this college kid's like, I can do this. So it started right as a summer, as just sort of these volunteer, these kids coming in the summer. And then you mentioned it's 60 years later, it's expanded to now. Right.
- [07:35]
B
Sort of talk about creed repertory theater.
- [07:37]
A
The evolution of this incredible theater.
- [07:39]
B
Yeah, it's the creed repertory theater. Now it's been there for 60 years and I think when the theater first came and it actually was really quality stuff and stayed, I think, you know, it did help with the town's economy. It's one of the factors that, that I think helped keep it alive. But what the town didn't anticipate was that with a theater comes theater people where things get interesting.
- [08:09]
A
Right, exactly. Yeah. So tell us about those. So they start in the summer and then it becomes. Right. There's a big influx of people coming and that's been the tradition, I think for the past 60 years. But there are also full time people that run the theater there throughout the year. And you mentioned Sort of this, you know, with the theater comes theater people. How did you both. Inbo, how did you and Kahani sort of discover Creed USA and know that this was an. You were just so interested in kind of exploring this. The juxtaposition of these two worlds kind of coming together in this wild west town.
- [08:48]
B
The way I first learned about Creed was that I read an article in the New York Times about the theater company itself, and I have a bit of a theater background from my college days, so I was curious. It also came with these really beautiful, like, striking photographs that almost didn't. They just seemed. They almost like the images I was seeing almost didn't go together in a way. And I read about the theater, and I just was curious, you know, how does a theater company work? And really, my initial question was, how does a theater company survive for this long in such a remote place in such a small town? And that was really interesting to me. But it was Also August of 2021, as I mentioned, and because I gleaned from the article that this was a pretty conservative town, and I know generally theaters don't skew more progressive. I also wondered how that dynamic worked. And it resonated personally, because I was existing in a bit of a bubble myself and realizing that I wasn't engaging. I didn't have the opportunity, and I wasn't engaging with people who I had differing opinions from, and that just didn't feel right. So this town just became interesting to me to explore and to find out how do they make it work in this town if they do. So I went there by myself a couple of times after initially reaching out to the artistic director, John d' Antonio of Creed Repertory Theater. You fly to Denver, you drive five hours, it's in the middle of nowhere. I was an outsider, for sure, but, you know, I met with some people. They introduced me to the next person who introduced me to the next person. And very quickly, I was having incredible conversations with the very people that I found. Had found it very easy to other eyes bubble. And it was so illuminating and heartwarming and. And interesting. And I just was like, how do the people in this town make it work for themselves, given that they have these incredibly different points of view, but they. They have to live together. And so that's kind of the starting point of exploring this town.
- [11:15]
A
So when you went out there to explore it initially, was it just. You said, I'm just. I read this article in the Times, and I just wanted to visit here. How did you kind of present your being There to the people that you were meeting with, you were saying, kind of having conversation after conversation was like, I'm actually just. Did you tell them that you were looking to understand how they were kind of all living together, or was it just you were just sort of having.
- [11:39]
B
Honestly? Well, initially, I mean. I mean, obviously when I reached out to the theater company, I learned about them from this article. So I mentioned the article, but I said, I'm really curious about the history of this town, the history of the theater. I thought both seemed really fascinating. But I also thought that it was potentially an interesting story to explore in these times. And I was very, you know, open about that. But the individual discussions I was having, it wasn't. I didn't have an agenda then. I needed to learn from them what this film could possibly be, because I didn't know. So it wasn't like I came in strong talking about politics. And, you know, in fact, I never once in all of our years of filming asked anyone who they voted for. It really wasn't about that. But what I did do was meet these people and try to, you know, just not even try to have conversations on a human level and connect on a human level with them, tell them about me, share something about myself. If I'm asking them to share something about them, then it's only right that I share something about myself. So we just kind of had these open, lovely conversations, and they would tell me about the town. And one thing I felt from across the board, from everyone, is how much they loved this place. And they were proud of this place where they. They live. Some of them have been there for many, many, many generations. Some of them have, you know, mining in their blood because, you know, they did it. Their fathers and grandfathers, their. Their moms were part of it, their families, their brothers, everyone was part of that. And it's such a part of the town. It's. You cannot separate the mining history from the people who live there. It's. And so that's a really interesting thing alone to talk to people about. And so you start there and then.
- [13:30]
A
Now, where are you staying? Is there a little inn or. I mean, you said 300 people, I'm thinking, and I hear. I thought I live in a. You know, have lived in a small town in Millbrook, but that's exceptionally small. Sort of.
- [13:41]
C
We can give a little plug for Vacation Rental Collective, which is the local agency that. It's kind of like a local Airbnb. They have, like, rentals of little cabins and houses around. So it was really, like, family style. At our shoot, you know, it would be just me and Kahani, or sometimes it was Kahani and Lucas or associate producer Lucas Cooperman and our DP and a sound person. I mean, at most, our crew was five people. And, you know, we would just live together. You know, we were very limited in terms of not only where you could stay, but, like, where you could eat, like, and feed the crew, because things would close really early, and we would be shooting long days. So it would be like we would, you know, be in pajamas together, have breakfast together, and then go out there and film all day, have lunch during the day somewhere at a local cafe, and then, like, come back and cook dinner. So from morning to night, it was a pretty long day, but we got to know each other very well, very well, very quickly.
- [14:37]
A
Oh, I'm sure.
- [14:39]
B
Pajamas.
- [14:41]
A
I didn't know we were all so comfortable. I could have. I would have this morning.
- [14:46]
B
It was kind of a film camp situation for us. Yeah. That said, Creed does have. There's the Creed Hotel, which is, you know, I think it has four rooms, but it's historic, beautiful place. It also has a restaurant. There's a couple other options of places to stay. But for us also, you know, this is an independent film. We had a certain budget, and so the most economical thing for us was to rent a cabin and all. All camp out together there. It was pretty great. And you never had one that didn't have an incredible view and the view of the town.
- [15:21]
A
I wish. I mean, hopefully we can show some. Some visuals at some point, you know, and as we're promoting this conversation when we release the episode, because it's really. It is really striking. Okay, so you. Honey, you have these conversations, and you're like, you know, I feel like I can see a story here, a story to tell, because you're relating to these people that you assume have different views than you, but you're connecting with them on a human level. And then you go back to Montclair, New Jersey. Right. Which is where you're from or where you live.
- [15:51]
B
And.
- [15:53]
A
How does. When does Inbo come into the picture?
- [15:56]
C
So I also live in Montclair, New Jersey, which is just like a suburb outside of. In New Jersey, outside of New York City, which has, like, an unusual number of documentary filmmakers who live out here for some reason. You know, there's a great film festival, Montclair Film. And so Kahani and I had known each other socially, but we had never worked together. And actually, like, maybe six months before our first trip out To Creed, Kahani had already been decreed a couple of times and I had reached out to her not knowing that she was working on this at all, because I was having, I was working on a project, it was like a limited series and I was just having like, I was, I had hit like, really like a tough period just in my professional life. Like, I was just really at a crossroads and I wasn't sure what to do. And I don't know why, but Kahani came to mind. I knew that she had produced so many different from independent films to long running TV series like the Daily show to showrunning limited series. And I just wanted to ask a woman's advice on what to do at this stage in my career. And so we went out to breakfast together and I found myself, you know, just kind of sharing. So I'm not somebody who necessarily is like an oversharer, but I just found myself just kind of dumping everything onto her lap. And she was so empathetic. So, I mean, she listened to me so deeply and really just provided such just thoughtful but like, really humble, like, advice. And I just, like we had this instant connection there. But also she was starting to work on this project and as she was telling me about it, I was like, I can't even imagine a better person to tell the story. Just from the way that she had a conversation with me and the way she listened to me. And I felt like she was truly empathetically listening. I was like, wow, I can see why Kahani makes documentaries because. And I saw that like, come to fruition, like as we were in the field together, like the way she talks to people, I mean, it's really like human to human first. It's listening first. And it's also like, you know, leave your judgment or prejudgments or any sort of like preconceived notions at the door, because it's really about leaning into curiosity.
- [18:13]
A
Yeah. And I think that empathy and I can't wait to actually dive in to talk about the documentary itself and how you all sort of highlighted what's happening there in that story. But Kahani, the empathy and sort of the lack of judgment comes through in the documentary. What I found really striking was that you were just, you were telling a story and you were presenting people explaining their, their views on things. Right. And how they're, and how they're connecting on other human levels without having your own opinion be evident in, in the film. Like, I wouldn't know. You know, I would assume because, you know, if we're gonna, you know, as you said, like you assume theater people might be a certain way or you assume people have. Depending on what state they're from or what. You can sort of make assumptions, we all do, about people's political perspectives sometimes. It's funny, my son, who's now 13, had a paper route when he was eight and he couldn't drive. And we were in Rhode island. So we would get up and there are people who said, I don't want anyone knowing what newspapers I'm reading. Like if people were reading the New York Post, they didn't want people knowing it. The people that were reading just the Times didn't want people knowing it. I thought, have we really gotten here? Is this really where we are? Anyway, I kind of went off piece there a bit. But you're not going into it with an agenda, I guess, to promote one particular perspective over another. You just are really sort of telling a story about how people are able to live respectfully and have discourse, to share their views in a respectful way and live together in a super tiny community without being divided.
- [19:59]
B
Well, thank you. I do think that, you know, I didn't have an agenda making this film, but I did have a very strong point of view. I think if I had had an agenda or if my goal had been to change people's minds, one, it's just not what I'm. What I was interested in, in telling the story of Creed. But also I think in a 300 person town where your relationships are absolutely everything, if people had ever gotten a whiff that I was going to, you know, come down hard with a hammer on a certain right, one way's right and one way's wrong, I would not have gotten all the yeses that I got the welcomes and had the substantive conversations that we were able to have. So, you know, it was imperative really to keep any of my own unconscious bias out of the picture. That being said, like, every single person surprised us. You know, it is. You can't. As a human being, you make assumptions when you first see someone. Everyone does. And every single person across the board surprised us along the way. And that was a really important thing to just on a human level, for myself, and probably imbo too like that. I mean, the cliche, you can't judge a book by its cover is pretty true. And so, yeah, it was really nice to be surprised by really each of these individuals. And hopefully when people see Creed usa they will be as well and give their judgments a second thought before they start making them.
- [21:46]
A
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- [23:54]
B
The school board ended up being the place where these points of view come together and have this incredibly compelling discourse. But we didn't know we were going to get that. We were well into shooting and filming and spending time there before that ever even became an option. But Just if you don't mind backing up just one bit, because I just want to talk about, you know, who you partner up with on a film is everything. And so I just want to just say, for Imbo, you know, I also had a lot of takeaway from that very meaningful conversation. I appreciated that Imbo admitted, like, needing some advice. And then as we were talking, because we hadn't worked together and we did know each other socially, but not that well, I just started having a feeling and also by reputation, I knew that Imbo was great, but you can't make a film without, like, an incredible producer. I am so lucky that I have that in Imbo. Imbo is a creative producer also really buttoned up and just, you know, was gave very important perspective. Also, as you know, we were making this film along the way. So, yeah, I just want to say, like, it was a real partnership and really important as we were making our way through figuring out what this film was. You know, I feel like I can.
- [25:22]
C
Deliver you to the school board. Just framing one thing that I forgot to mention before, and that is one of the many things that fascinated me was this annual cycle that this town lives through every year. It's a town of around 300 people year round, but for five to six months of every year, another 80 to 100 people arrive in town. And these are people who are from all over the country. You know, this is. First of all, this is a 97% white town. You know, largely conservative families, mining families, ranching families, people who have lived here and really become this, like, symbiotic community that really depends on each other. And then almost 100 people come in for six months every year. People of color, people from across the LGBTQ spectrum, people from cities, people from coasts all over the country. They literally descend upon this town. The theater provides housing for their actors, their crew, their stage crew, their directors. And this has been going on for 60 years. And through those 60 years, it's become progressively more diverse in terms of who's coming to this town. So for me, this is an ongoing social experiment that's been happening and unfolding over time. And I was just so fascinated by how does that work and what are the tensions and what are also the things that have. Like, kind of. How have people kind of grown towards each other, not just turned each other off. So I think, you know, when we started filming, it was at first, we were talking a lot about this annual cycle and kind of like, charting, like, you know, a year or a couple years of this town and Kind of like living through those rhythms. But then, you know, we weren't searching for it, but this opportunity came up with the school board and Kahani. Maybe you can talk a little bit about how that came about.
- [27:13]
B
Yeah. So we always knew that Creed has this incredible, incredibly fascinating history itself. It's a Wild west kind of history. The mining's incredible. And then you have this theater company which also has an incredible history. It's very connected to the town, but it's also its own story. And in the Venn diagram of those things, it's like that little middle section that we knew was kind of going to be the meat of the film. It's like where these blend, where they come together, but where they intersect. Yeah, exactly where they intersect. Like, but we didn't know where is that going to be. Like, there's. This is a town with no stoplight, one gas station, one grocery store. And, you know, you can't have a. Cameras going everywhere 24 7. We. We just had one camera, and we, you know, we're in and out of the town over the course of years, and we just didn't know where we were going to find those conversations happening. We had the incredibly good fortune of a good. While into shooting, we were shooting amazing things, amazing interviews. We were figuring out who our main subjects were, who were interesting to follow, who represented different points of view and were compelling characters, but we weren't really sure how what was going to present itself, if anything, to really show us how they work together. So one of our characters, who we are main subjects, who we decided to follow, happened to be the educational director of the theater company. But also we learned that she was an elected member of the Board of Education, and that was really interesting. And that kind of gave us an organic connection to this entity, the Board of Education, where things were being discussed. And so I reached out to the board and I said that we'd be interested in filming their discussions. I had learned that they were discussing the issue about having guns in schools for school safety, and I thought that was an interesting topic. I thought it had some national resonance, and I thought it would be interesting to hear what those conversations were. The Board of Ed. I wrote to, you know, the president of the Board of Ed and the superintendent, and they said yes, which was just kind of remarkable. So for the next year or so, we were able to have our camera in there and follow the discussions, and it turned out to be that the Board of Ed itself was that middle of the Venn diagram. It's that little middle Section. It's where all the voices came together. The main subjects that you're following, all these points of views that we're hearing about the come together, having really respectful, civil discourse, but intense around really, really timely issues. And in the case of this film, the issues are guns in schools and the health curriculum, which included LGBT content. And around those two issues, we got our cameras around and, you know, we're able to observe how this community and how the board of Ed, together with the community, wraps their heads around these really divisive, really crucial issues. And that became this kind of through line to help us bring everyone together.
- [30:50]
A
And you mentioned. So the education director of the theater is on the board of that. She, if I recall, was from Jersey City, New Jersey. Right. She moved to theater group. Right. And she has a. You know, had a. For example, she wanted to change the curriculum to include curriculum about conversation around gender identity and then some LGBTQ content as well. And the other side, other people on the board felt that that wasn't age appropriate or they just. They didn't have a problem with.
- [31:25]
B
So basically, the. The state of Colorado requires a comprehensive health curriculum. Comprehensive health curriculums include LGBT topics around LGBT issues, including gender pronouns, you know, trans issues, stuff like that. So it was around this comprehensive health curriculum and because of its inclusion of some of these topics that both the school, some of the members of the school board and the community felt like it had an agenda and that it shouldn't be taught at the school level. So what you see are these two different points of view and all the complications around that, like, what. What are. What is a school's responsibility to teach? What's a family's responsibility to teach?
- [32:20]
A
Right.
- [32:21]
B
What do we equip our students with so that they emerge from high school with a sense of the world and be able to go out there and what we don't. So. So without. I don't want to give too much away, but it's about. It's about inclusion in a health curriculum that is supposed to be comprehensive. And, you know, in.
- [32:43]
A
But then it becomes. What is one person's definition of being comprehensive? Right. I think that's where.
- [32:48]
B
Exactly. And who should be included in that.
- [32:49]
A
And who should be making those teaching that, as you mentioned, it should be parents or should it be families, or should it be the school? And I. You know, but what struck me, and this is why I love the film so much, is that, you know, Britney has a very different perspective as other members of the board, and she, you know, you film these conversations, then you'd interview the people separately about, you know, kind of their takeaway or how they felt after having those conversations. And she said, you know, I vehemently disagree. And you know, and sometimes she would be, you know, as we all as humans would be a little annoyed that, you know, there was just that she was hitting a wall with some of her arguments. But she said, but you know, when I had my baby, that person dropped off food for me. And when I go, you know, just discussing all the touch points where there's more in common than there is, than there is not, I think, yeah, School.
- [33:41]
B
Board was a crucial part of the evolution of this story. You know, with documentary you can plan as much as you want, but, but really ultimately, you know, life is unfolding before your camera and you just don't have control over it. So you have to be willing to pivot at all times and change your, change your perspective or, you know, someone emerges as more of a subject than you thought they might be because of the way the stories are playing out. You just never know. So you have to be really nimble minded as you're going through this over the years. I mean, we shot for close to three years in this little town and.
- [34:21]
A
And did you see any change of opinion based on, you know, people living together and having that close contact with, you know, you talk about that sort of center in the Venn diagram. You know, they're having more contact and it did change people's perspective because they're having more of those conversations, you know, on each side, you know, over the course of that time period.
- [34:42]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, one of the things, I mean this kind of might veer into spoilers. So without going into that, we do know because we've shared the film privately with all the participants, all the main participants of the film have watched through a private link. I can answer the question in two ways. One is it's not so much seeing people evolve in this three year period that we saw, but I do think that we saw these relationships play out. And afterwards we know from everyone watching the film, people have reached out to each other and said, I'm so glad you joined the board of Education. And despite the fact that we did not always agree, you know, I have so much respect for you. I mean there's, there's this kind of like full circle thing that happens in these relationships where people have conflicts and they still come to the table with respect and they, they, they talk it out like honestly and still can walk away and like shake Hands. I mean, and that's. And that's something that's. It's remarkable that. That's remarkable now, you know, like, that we are kind of, like, stunned that this can still happen. I do think that, you know, Creed is. Is such a. An amazing microcosm of our world that you see the way things change over time in a very clear way that it's harder to see in, like, you know, kind of the history of the world at large. You see the impact of people having to speak to each other face to face, having, like, real interactions and engagement to survive as a community, and also what it takes for someone to change their opinion over time. You know, it's like you think of Ramona, the owner of, you know, Mountain Man Beaver Emporium. I think I got that right. I always forget.
- [36:33]
A
What about Mountain Beaver Emporium?
- [36:35]
B
I don't.
- [36:36]
C
Is that the.
- [36:37]
A
Do they. Are there stuffed beavers? Are there beaver, hat beaver?
- [36:42]
B
There's all kinds of animal furs and. Yeah. Stuff in there. No, it's a great store.
- [36:49]
A
Yeah.
- [36:49]
C
Yeah. But, you know, through her story about her family, like, how she, you know, she's a, you know, a county commissioner. She is, you know, a conservative woman who's lived in Creed you know, most of her life. And, you know, she talks about her family, and like, her. She has one. One of each a liberal and a conservative as, you know, son and daughter and, like, how that works out. And, you know, her daughter married a black man. He's one of the very few black men in town, and how that's impacted her life. So you see, like, through these stories, that we're just kind of getting to know these people, how they've changed over time and how this interaction in this town is so key to that.
- [37:27]
A
You know, it's very interesting. You know, I mentioned to you, I think, when we've spoken before, that I lived in this small town, Millbrook. I was a town councilman before I moved to Nashville. And, you know, we have, I don't know, 4,500 or so residents here, and it is a small town, and we get an influx sort of similar to Cree. We get an influx of New Yorkers on weekends and in the summer, it's a sort of a. It's a kind of a weekend sort of community. And so we, too, have kind of this sort of these tensions of perspective sometimes, but the difference. And maybe it's because Creed is such a small community and it is remote, so you really have to rely on each other to, as she said, bring Food over when you have a baby or maybe there's a snowstorm or whatever. Because the conversations and the dialogue that are taking place, you know, when people come to share their views on a new development or whatever, the respect has just gone out the window. People are not having civil discourse. They're not presenting their views. I mean, not everybody, but. But many people. And the people that sometimes are the worst are those that are on zoom, kind of dialing in, you know, you're not there in person. So I don't know if this part of this issue, you know, with our society not being able to have conversations where you have different points of view without labeling the other person as bad. Right. Or wanting to walk away from the table is because of this lack of contact and dehumanization through social media. I don't know, but there's something there. And I think that's what I found so promising about this film, is that is sort of looking at it with the eye of like, what are they doing that's so right there that they're. And maybe it's the size, maybe it's. I don't know what it is. But they are able to have those conversations and still totally disagree when they walk out the door with the other person, but not label the other person as bad. Not no longer visit their diner or their store. They just move past it and try to identify those areas where there's common humanity as opposed to difference.
- [39:35]
B
Yeah, well, they all do have a shared love of the community. And that, I think, you know, is what bonds them, binds them. But, you know, I think Creed USA and the town of Creed itself and what we show of this town, it's not going to solve all the problems in this country. But I do think that I personally took away so much, and we hope audiences will, too, in seeing just how crucial it is to engage across differences in a respectful way. If we don't talk to each other, we're doomed is what I think. And so I am forever grateful and respectful to the people in Creed for allowing us to spend time in their town. Film these meetings. Film them in their homes, in the theater. Give us their perspective on things, because they do offer some hope. And they show a way to at least take one step, which is talk to each other. Talk to each other and listen to each other. And, you know, as. As Imbo said earlier, like, that shouldn't be remarkable, but these days it actually seems to be. It's a novelty talking to people who aren't in your bubble. You know, if you live in one like I have in the, you know, for much of my adult life, really. So I feel like there's a lot to take away from Creed, and hopefully even you don't have to live in a small town for that to, I think, hopefully impact you, because there's people who are having these kind of issues in their own. At their own dining room table.
- [41:15]
A
Yeah.
- [41:16]
B
You know, and no matter whether you live in a city or a suburb or a small town or where a coast or in the middle or whatever, these issues are everywhere. And how we engage and talk to each other is absolutely crucial. And I'm so grateful to the community of Creed that they allowed us to witness it and that we get the opportunity to share it through CreedUSA and hopefully make people think about how they're engaging with their fellow humans.
- [41:47]
A
Maybe Creed should. The residents of Creature wrote a manual for Thanksgiving dinner.
- [41:53]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [41:55]
C
Yeah.
- [41:56]
A
But was there something specific? I mean, you sort of touched upon a lot of these points, Kahane, but I don't know, Inbo, for you, like, your takeaway about, you know, you know, or anything you sort of learned from these people that you met. You philosophically sort of have differences of opinion on issues, perhaps.
- [42:17]
C
But, yeah, I mean, I think for me it's, you know, look, my family immigrated to the US in the 70s, you know, and we. We landed in New York City, which was, you know, not the welcoming, like, melting pot that we had necessarily dreamed it would be at first. Like, we moved into, like, genuinely, like, hostile spaces at times. And I think that, you know, at the time, I completely understand, especially in these big urban environments or big, dense suburbs, like, you need to find your safety. You need to find your people that will protect you. And so I think what I've learned from Creed is like, what a small town can teach us about that. Because I think in these bigger, anonymous spaces where you feel threatened, where you really do feel unsafe, like, finding community is so key to that. And so, you know, when I was old enough to choose where I could live, I always, like, went to very diverse, very progressive communities because that's where I felt safe. But I think the downside to that is that you start, like, just kind of over protecting yourself in a way, and you start never having difficult conversations.
- [43:31]
B
You.
- [43:32]
C
You start to all think alike. You start to get really emotional and have, like, just kind of fiery reactions to anybody who questions kind of like, what, you know, the way you think about things. And I do. I have really strong beliefs, and I have really strong convictions. I Do think there are things that are deal breakers, like, you know, racism or, you know, like. I think there is such a thing as, you know, human decency. And just what I really learned from a town like Creed is how key that is, how that person to person interaction is. Because you will never really change someone's opinion by sending them an article or.
- [44:13]
A
Speaking about something on Instagram and saying if they have one perspective or another.
- [44:19]
C
It's about like having hard conversations and seeing each other and agreeing not to disagree. But also, like, you see over time, things do change, things people soften and. And people move towards each other. And I think that's the key to sustainable change.
- [44:35]
A
You know, it's interesting, Kahana, you mentioned that, like that school board, right, where you're bringing together those two perspectives and they're being forced to have these conversations where they disagree in larger towns or in Montclair or our town. I don't know where there are those. I guess maybe at our town council meeting actually, like, about development, they're very small, specific perspectives on growth versus being very. Environmental protections and things like that. There was a lot of kind of. There were some different perspectives there coming to a head. But I think that is the difficult piece. And without getting political, which I think I am probably making this statement, but I think that universities and colleges used to be one of those places where people would come and have. That was the whole idea, having people come with different perspectives and from different places and be able to have. I don't know if that. I don't know if the Creed conversation is being had at all of our colleges and universities, meaning where they're encouraging discourse of different points of view. But I think that probably was the other place. And what's exciting about Creed is that because of its size perhaps and because of the theater, but because everybody in that community has to work together, right? This woman that as part of the theater ran for the school board and they were happy to have her and everyone, everyone was more, in some ways, more inclusive, frankly, to allowing people that are different to be part of those conversations, different than the people that were already in Creed when they arrived. So I just think it's a. It's very promising, but as you said, it's not. You know, we have a lot of more work to do to. To bring people together with different perspectives. I don't know where that will take place because it's hard when you are kind of in actually moving to Nashville was interesting for us coming from New York, because there are very different perspectives In Tennessee. And it is Nashville. It's a very blue city, but purple in some parts. So it is. You do get some different perspectives there. And people are generally very respectful of people having different points of view.
- [46:44]
B
Yeah, I think it's really important just to, you know, that Creed is not presented as a utopia and can have all the answers. And it's not a utopia, but I do think what's happening there and what we were able to show through our film, Creed USA is such an imperative step for all of us. And they show it in a really beautiful way.
- [47:15]
C
Way.
- [47:15]
B
Despite the fact that, like, not, you know, not everyone agrees, not everyone's happy. They have to work really hard at it. But when there's something they don't agree on, like, I just really respect the way they talk about it, and I really respect that they don't look for quick answers. They keep going back to the map, back to square one to try to figure out something that works for their community, out of love for their community. They just. They're doing the hard work and they're having the hard conversations in this knowledge, nondescript room in the school. And hats off to them, like, I. I need to be doing more of that myself personally. So. Yeah, but it's.
- [47:58]
A
It's utopia all day. I think we all do. But tell us. It is such a beautiful film. And I was. I, as you both know, I was so inspired by it. I. People who are listening that want to see it, want to learn more about it. Where can people go? Where can they see it? I know it's been a bunch of festivals. Maybe there's some things coming up this fall. Tell us how people can see Creed USA for themselves.
- [48:25]
C
Yeah, we are having a great film festival run right now. We had our world premiere at the south by Southwest Film Festival in March, and we've been to a bunch of festivals since then. And we have some great festivals coming up that we're not allowed to announce just yet, but people can follow us on Instagram Reedusafilm or and also find us on Facebook Reedusa Film. As soon as we can announce, all of the announcements will be those social media handles. Also, I think that the film festival run has been so gratifying because all the audiences have been so warm and so surprised by the film. We're getting exactly the response that we hope. People have nothing but enormous respect for a town like Creed and what it can teach them in their own lives, no matter where they're from, but also, like, kind of navigating their personal relationships. Their families. But also they see this film as like a rare example of hope in this very bleak, political, divisive landscape. And, you know, the reminders in the film are astonishingly simple, but like, I think everyone feels like they need to hear it and they feel like other people need to hear it. And to that end, you know, we've also found these incredible organizations and that where this is their kind of mission right now, it's about bridging divides, whether it's Braver Angels, Builders, Bridge, Entertainment Labs, all of these organizations are kind of organizing groups around the country around, like having these discussions, having these hard discussions, finding common ground when right now it's just this completely like polarized battle of flip flopping, you know, with every, you know, we just have whiplash depending on like who's in power. And I feel like people are just really exhausted by that.
- [50:14]
B
Yeah. I also just want to say, you know, with Creed usa, it's. It's not just about these kind of big and heavy issues. You're. You also get to spend time as a viewer in this town, which is an incredible place, with the theater company, with the residents of the town at the mining competition, you know, in the mountains. And it's just all the charms of a small town are woven throughout, as are these school board meetings. But you really get to meet some incredible people and quite a few animals along the way who pop into frame. And it's an incredible window into this very wonderful, not perfect, but wonderful, fascinating place. And I. I hope as many people get to see it as possible and that we get to have these kind of conversations that Imbo is saying we're having during our Q&As after. After the film, because it's an important conversation and it's a really interesting conversation. And people get emotional from this film because I think they get. They're inspired and they feel a little hope. And that's a really great thing to be providing for people. Thank you, Creed.
- [51:31]
A
Well, I mean, and thank you both for sharing what's happening there with the rest of the world. I mean, I had the same reaction as, you know, to the film, and I know everybody who watches it will feel the same way. It does give you hope and it is inspiring, but it's how you saw it and how you told it in just such an open, empathetic way that I think it resonates with, with its viewers. And I'm. I'm a huge fan. As you know, everyone listening has got to go see it. So follow, you know, look on Their website, you'll be able to see where you can see it.
- [52:05]
B
And they don't have a website.
- [52:06]
A
I expect to.
- [52:08]
B
We don't have a website yet.
- [52:10]
A
Oh, okay. See their Instagram handle.
- [52:12]
B
Yep.
- [52:13]
A
At Creed.
- [52:14]
C
@ CreedUSA Film USA Film.
- [52:17]
A
And as I told you both when we met the first time, I expect to see you both on stage getting an Oscar. Because I really do think it's that much the message is that important and I think it resonates with people because as imbo, as you said, I think a lot of us are just sort of exhausted by not being able to sort of being like one way or the other and just want to kind of just be able to have a quiet, nice Thanksgiving, you know, just everybody just come together at that table, you know, literally and metaphorically. So I'm so grateful to you both for taking the time to share Creed USA with me and with everybody who's listening. And I can't wait to see it again and again. I can't wait to see you two on stage with that.
- [53:06]
B
I'm not sure that will happen, but we appreciate the positive thinking and we love talking with you and really it means a lot that the film resonated so deeply with you. And yeah, we can't wait for more people to see it.
- [53:21]
A
I can't wait for them to.
- [53:24]
C
Thank you so much, Leslie. This was such a great conversation.
- [53:30]
A
That brings us to the end of this episode of Duologue. A huge thank you to Kahani Cooperman and Inbo Shim for joining us on the podcast and sharing their amazing film Creed usa. Don't forget to follow them on Instagram creedusa Film to get showtimes for when this amazing film is screening at a festival or theater near you. Also, a huge shout out to this episode sponsor, Cozy Earth and their incredible products, their amazing sheet sets, bubble cuddle, blanket, and my favorite PJs in the whole wide world. Don't forget their Black Friday sale is starting and with that plus our Duologue promo code, you can get 40% off of all their amazing products. So run, don't walk and check out their website, gozeroth.com and as always, thank you to you, our listeners, for your amazing support. If you enjoyed this show, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. We release a new episode every Wednesday. And don't forget too to check our website, duologuepod.com where you can learn more about how to sign up for our substack. And you can check out all of our cool new merchandise. So until next Wednesday, this is Leslie. And thank you for listening to Duologie.