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- [00:05]
Leslie Heaney
Hello, everybody, it's Leslie. And you're listening to the interview with Leslie Heaney. This is my first episode back after a six week hiatus, and in my opinion, this episode is well worth the wait. Today I'm sitting down with Betsy Wills, who's the co author of a book called you'd Hidden Genius. She's also the co founder of a company called YouScience, which is a company that has democratized this formerly very expensive aptitude test. You can take this test and learn what your secret talents and your hidden genius is. In this conversation, Betsy and I talk about this subject of kind of unlocking your hidden genius or your talents. And we talk a lot about what this aptitude assessment actually measures and how for those who take it, you can actually learn not only what you're naturally good at, but also what kinds of careers are the right match for you. So not only did I sit down with Betsy, who I adore, who's a new friend here in Nashville, but I also read the book and took the test and felt like I had seen a shaman and a therapist and a fortune teller all in one. It's so insightful. It's a fascinating topic and it's something I think all of you should do. Read the book and take the assessment. And I think after hearing this conversation between me and Betsy, you will want to run out and do just that. So here's Betsy Wills. Betsy, so good to see you. Thank you so much for coming in to talk to me about Hidden Genius.
- [01:39]
Betsy Wills
I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me. Leslie.
- [01:42]
Leslie Heaney
Oh my gosh, are you kidding? So I, you know, you and I, we talked about your incredible book. I have not only read it, but I've actually done the assessment within it.
- [01:52]
Betsy Wills
Right.
- [01:53]
Leslie Heaney
So I'm so excited about your book and about your assessment and about sharing this with everybody who's listening because it's been a transformative, eye opening experience for me. But I think it's so interesting to hear about kind of how you got there and how you made this discovery. You had your own kind of experience with being at a point in your life where you kind of wanted to step back and think about what your hidden genius was or where, you know, where you are, what the next chapter looked like.
- [02:22]
Betsy Wills
Well, it was really an epiphany that I think a lot of people go through. I was fortunate enough, this is back in 2000, to be home with my children and they were, you know, I was a young mother, I will say, but I looked at a picture of my grandmothers. And I realized all of them were either 90 or 100 years old. Ridley's, my husband's and mine. And I thought, I'm going to live to be 100.
- [02:47]
Leslie Heaney
Oh my gosh, that's a lot of time.
- [02:50]
Betsy Wills
And I thought, well, I'm, you know, 32. And I kind of had thought at the time, oh, all the important decisions of my life are behind me. I think a lot of people go through that, particularly when you're, you know, mid children. And so a friend of mine said, hey, you should go do something called Johnson o' Connor, which is in Atlanta. This is back in again, 2000. So I went down there and they do aptitude testing and it took two days. It was frightfully expensive but incredibly impactful to me. And so I immediately came back to Nashville, enrolled in a graduate program at Vanderbilt in human resource development. And when I graduated from that, I thought, oh, I'm going to help all these women just like me.
- [03:38]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [03:38]
Betsy Wills
And so I wrote which there are so many, so many, so many who would have gold plated education. Yep. And you know, don't feel like that's it, but they, you know, they, they're having a hard time reentering or whatever it was. Well, so I wrote a curriculum called the Brain Spa. Okay. And I thought, I'm going to appeal to all these women.
- [03:57]
Leslie Heaney
By the way, I like this for, as a side for you, the Brain Spa, Brain Spot. You know, it's a great name and it's.
- [04:03]
Betsy Wills
Thank you. So tell me, get back into branding after this. But anyway, it turned out the, the key client group that called me were not women wanting to come back into the workforce. Ironically, they were 40 year old male lawyers.
- [04:17]
Leslie Heaney
Interesting.
- [04:18]
Betsy Wills
So that is when the light bulb went off for me, I was like, oh my goodness. Everyone, regardless, at some point or another is going to go through this nagging feeling like I'm not really fulfilling my potential or I'm dissatisfied, whatever it is. So that's the long story of how this started. But by the time I was working in branding and investor relations for an investment firm here in Nashville, computing power had come a long way. And so a long story of how we got here, but we started thinking about how we could help people who were taking so long to graduate, et cetera. And I said, you know what if it was possible to bring this very expensive analog assessment into an online environment. And as you know, you know, in 2000 we were playing Pong on Atari.
- [05:08]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Exactly.
- [05:10]
Betsy Wills
And by 2010 it was possible so we raised a bunch of money and brought it into an online environment, drove the price down to, you know, practically nothing. And now the assessment is available to people everywhere. We democratized it.
- [05:27]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [05:28]
Betsy Wills
So it's now in 25% of all US high schools and over 600 universities. And most importantly, all adults like you and me can access it for, you know, the price of my book, which is $20.
- [05:41]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, no, it's. It's so incredible. And I. I just. So interesting, though, what you were just saying about, you know, male lawyers at 40, that being a group, that was surprising to you. And then you've got sort of the people that are taking a little bit longer to launch in their 20s. I was just speaking with two college students that are seniors and the anxiety around that and next steps. But what this assessment does is really, no matter what your age, to your earlier point, it kind of helps you unravel. You sort of know what you enjoy doing, and most of us sort of know kind of what we're good at doing. But it's very hard to translate that into a tangible profession.
- [06:25]
Betsy Wills
Well, if you'll allow me, I'll go back a little bit and say understanding aptitudes have been around since the 1920s. So long history of that. The military's used them in many ways because they wanted to determine, you know, who do we train, who can learn fastest to do things like fly a plane or jump out of a plane or navigate a plane. And those are three different sets of aptitude patterns. So the problem has been that high schools in guidance have used something that you probably took and I took called the interest survey. Are you familiar with that?
- [07:00]
Leslie Heaney
I mean, no, I actually, I never even. One of the things I find so striking is how resourceful this is and helpful this would be and how. Until what. What you've been doing, at least in my experience, having gone to private school. And maybe it's different, different schools have different offerings, but I. I never had that kind of exposure.
- [07:18]
Betsy Wills
Okay, well, in most high schools, yeah. Private. And employees. Employees.
- [07:23]
Leslie Heaney
Get this Myers Briggs, I've taken before, but not. Yes, the survey that you're talking about. Yeah.
- [07:29]
Betsy Wills
So it's self report. It asks you questions like, you know, Leslie, do you like building cabinets? Do you like inventing new cures for cancer? It's crazy. I mean, who would know at 17 or even 37 if what they really like doing based on a survey? And then it generates this report that is recommending jobs like, you know, funerary, funeral, mortician, forest ranger, doctor, Lawyer.
- [07:58]
Leslie Heaney
I wonder what, what the funeral mortician question would be to lead.
- [08:03]
Betsy Wills
But anyway, anything that's based on self report.
- [08:05]
Leslie Heaney
Exactly.
- [08:06]
Betsy Wills
Should not really be used to guide you, only that to be used to guide you on your job choices. And neither should Myers, Briggs or Enneagram. We've been using good tools for conversations, but inadequate tools for career guidance.
- [08:20]
Leslie Heaney
Well, you talked a little bit, but I think sort of distinguishing for people the difference between kind of what we like to do. Because if you had that survey and you gave it to me, it was like, do you like to sing? I'd be like, I love to sing. Doesn't mean I should be doing that professionally. Right. So it's like it's in the shower. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You've got to. Saturday night you have car karaoke. So how would you really describe, though, for people what aptitude is or what that distinguishing thing is about it versus kind of what you have an affinity for doing?
- [08:50]
Betsy Wills
Right. So you have interest in lots of things. That is very important, by the way, when you choose careers. But aptitudes are assessing you on your innate inborn abilities. Think of them as your brain's hard wiring.
- [09:03]
Leslie Heaney
Right. Okay.
- [09:04]
Betsy Wills
And if you're a parent, you really understand this by just watching your child or having two children and how different they can be. But for example, one of 52 aptitudes, by the way, that can be tested and people just don't realize this would be a spatial ability. So, you know, the child who's building the Taj Mahal out of Legos at, you know, 6 is indicating an early spatial ability. But you know, the other child you may have who has no interest in that at all and doesn't, you know, you don't even know what they're building. It's just a pile of bricks. That's probably someone who doesn't have a spatial ability. But again, there are 52 different abilities that can be measured. So everything from, you know, reasoning skills. Some are very cognitive and then others are physical. Like some people are very good at working with small tools. This is very important if you're going to be a surgeon, for example, or a dentist. Some people recognize color. Like they can just see the difference between oyster white and cream or, or whatever. And you know, they, they in fact give that kind of assessment when you go work for Porter paints or carpet companies. Exactly. So Anyway, there are 52 aptitudes that can be measured. In our assessment, we, we focus on 14 because they're not really all created equal.
- [10:26]
Leslie Heaney
Interesting. And so what are, what are the 14. I mean, maybe they're too many to list or which. What are the ones that sort of call that.
- [10:31]
Betsy Wills
In the book, we talk about the core four.
- [10:33]
Leslie Heaney
Four, right.
- [10:34]
Betsy Wills
But when someone buys the book, they can get a code to take the assessment included, and they'll be assessed on 14. But the core four would be sequential reasoning, which is how you sort of the logic aptitude, if you will. Some people mentally have a file cabinet in their head, and it's easy for them to make plans mentally. And other people need tools like filing cabinets and calendars, that kind of thing. And these are not good or bad spatial abilities. Number two. We talked about that. Then. Inductive reasoning, which affects people at work in a huge amount. Inductive reasoning is your ability to draw a conclusion under time pressure where there's a lot of ambiguity. So if you've ever played Connections on the New York Times and they give you, you know, pick the four things that go together, it's very much the. A game like that is the. The way the test works, and you're given six pictures, and you have to pick three, which three go together. Inductive reasoning is, you know, that speed of decision making where there's a lot of ambiguity. And so we assess that. The last one, I'm sure you have, because I actually looked at your scores, and I have as well, which is called idea rate. And so.
- [11:45]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, right, yes.
- [11:46]
Betsy Wills
Do you remember?
- [11:47]
Leslie Heaney
Yes.
- [11:48]
Betsy Wills
So this is literally a measure of the rate at which you come up with ideas. And, Leslie, yours is very, very fast.
- [11:56]
Leslie Heaney
That is so interesting that you. Anyway, keep going, because I.
- [12:00]
Betsy Wills
So we're looking at people who have a fast rate of ideas. And by the way, we're not measuring the quality of your ideas. They may all be terrible.
- [12:08]
Leslie Heaney
Exactly.
- [12:09]
Betsy Wills
Okay.
- [12:10]
Leslie Heaney
I bet they. I don't know if you got to see the breakout session of my ideas, but I was. When it was a time that I'm like. I just.
- [12:16]
Betsy Wills
I kept coming up with.
- [12:18]
Leslie Heaney
And they were not a lot of them were, you know.
- [12:20]
Betsy Wills
Well, it's like a blender with the top off, right?
- [12:22]
Leslie Heaney
Exactly.
- [12:23]
Betsy Wills
And your kids is, like, spewing everywhere. I don't know if you have to have a glass of wine at night to shut it down, but it's, you know, fast. So teachers have this. Journalists have this. Podcast hosts have this. Oftentimes, writers, consultants often have this. You don't want your pilot or your surgeon to have this. Okay. You don't want your surgeon coming up with new ways to sell you up, coming up, new ideas. All the Time you want them focused on that. And it's not add, but it is back to. With aptitudes. It's neither good or bad if you have them. Most people's pattern looks more like a, a soundboard.
- [12:59]
Leslie Heaney
Okay.
- [13:00]
Betsy Wills
Beautiful. Music is made with a combination of highs and lows.
- [13:03]
Leslie Heaney
What you talk about in the book, just also the, the concept. You've got aptitude. Then you have amplifiers.
- [13:08]
Betsy Wills
Right.
- [13:08]
Leslie Heaney
Of your different aptitudes.
- [13:10]
Betsy Wills
Right.
- [13:10]
Leslie Heaney
So I like that soundboard.
- [13:12]
Betsy Wills
Yes.
- [13:12]
Leslie Heaney
Description that you just gave. Yeah.
- [13:14]
Betsy Wills
So they're not all created equal. They're, you know, in very various patterns. But those patterns tell us. Oh, you know, instead of just you can be anything, why don't you look at this group of things that you might consider doing? Because you're going to love them. You're going to find a lot of satisfaction and your learning rate will be very quick if you're using your aptitudes in your work that are matched to these patterns.
- [13:39]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. I think it's really interesting because I think people, you know, young people and even, you know, at least myself at different points in my, my professional life sort of think, thinking, what am I quote, meant to do? I think kids feel that pressure of finding out what they're meant to do. And I think what was so interesting for me about taking this assessment because at the end, after you, you know, you go through the testing and then you get your report, which is so detailed. I felt like I was going to a fortune teller. I mean, I really felt like it was like a. And a fortune teller and a guide and everything else sort of rolled into one. But they at the end kind of spit out sort of a whole host like at least a dozen different careers that would be a match for your aptitudes. And they're really, at least in my case, and I'm assuming this is probably the case for a lot of people, pretty diverse.
- [14:31]
Betsy Wills
Oh yes. Yeah. I mean the same aptitude pattern, for example, for a fine art photographer is the same for a high end restoration contractor, is the same for a department store manager, in fact.
- [14:45]
Leslie Heaney
Interesting.
- [14:45]
Betsy Wills
So aptitudes are the starting point and then the key is to explore, but the key is not to be exploring randomly in the dark, zigging and zagging all the time, but to kind of give you a narrower band to then look into to see where your interest actually may lie. So aptitudes precede interest, but it's been the opposite for a long, long time because we didn't have the way to test aptitudes at scale.
- [15:13]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [15:14]
Betsy Wills
And that's really what it's about.
- [15:15]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, but I think so when you were talking about when you went to get your own testing, right. And had that kind of aha moment, that was the same test that's in this book.
- [15:26]
Betsy Wills
Yes.
- [15:27]
Leslie Heaney
This is not like you trying to create a new science. We did not come up with this. It's about you democratizing access to this and then coming out of that. What were the recommendations for you? Was it to go work at in finance and doing that?
- [15:40]
Betsy Wills
Well, I did have numerical ability, but really for me it's high inductive reasoning, you know, the ability to make a decision under time pressure, which a lot of people who like to solve problems, that's really what that comes down to. But also high idea rate. So marketing was a good fit for me writing, I enjoyed writing. So, you know, communications, that type of thing was a good fit. But I liked working in an area where numbers were involved. So I was not doing the investing, of course, but I had to explain our investments to our investors. And so that was fun to be in a area where numbers were involved. But I was really on the marketing and, you know, investor relations side of things.
- [16:22]
Leslie Heaney
Well, that's something I thought, I think is so interesting because you and I've talked about this before, is that in the, the assessment, it kind of can debunk some of your own preconceived notions about yourself or assumptions. Like, for example, I'm quote bad at math. Well, actually that would be an assumption that I made by myself. And I don't, I think that my report would probably be in concert with that. But, but, but as you were saying to me, that is not necessarily like, I think people sometimes shut down certain career paths. Right. Because they think that includes things that they're not quite quote, good at, but they're within different disciplines. Like math, for example. Math is not the same thing as interpreting an report of numbers.
- [17:02]
Betsy Wills
Right, right, exactly. I mean, I'm not a great in math, but I like numbers, I like trends, I like trend analysis, love data. So most people get shut down about math because either they have a poor math teacher or they interpret math as higher math.
- [17:17]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
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Betsy Wills
I'm not that.
- [17:18]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [17:18]
Betsy Wills
But applied math, which we also assess, which we assess both in the assessment, applied math and higher math. Really? And some people do really well at the applied math portion, but not the higher math. And they're surprised. And I'm like, no, don't be afraid of math. Math fear is what I'd say. Women, though, the fascinating thing about the Data, we've assessed over four and a half million people now. So we have a lot of information and data. But women tend to make their career choices based on what's, you know, a lot of them based on what they've been exposed to and socialized around.
- [17:54]
Leslie Heaney
Right, right.
- [17:55]
Betsy Wills
And that's really the game changer for a lot of people using this assessment. They're like, wait a minute, I could, you know, be something, not just a teacher, a nurse or whatever it is. And nothing's wrong with those careers if that's actually where you fit. But what happens is people leave a lot on the table because they make these decisions sort of in a vacuum too early. And so their self understanding is not as clear as it could be. And so no matter what age you are taking, this will kind of open your mind to, wait a minute, maybe I could, you know, try this or try that and be successful.
- [18:31]
Leslie Heaney
So I remember you talking to me about that as well and saying that women or, you know, females are sort of have a proclivity or more inclined in their aptitude side in computer science.
- [18:42]
Betsy Wills
Yes, yes.
- [18:43]
Leslie Heaney
Which is not. And there are so few women that are actually in computer science. As an example of your, you know, your comment about kind of us women sort of tending towards careers that they have sort of been more socialized to think is, is the right fit when in fact they might have their aptitude, might be telling them something totally different.
- [19:01]
Betsy Wills
Right. I mean, the outcome is, is a huge amount of confidence to try something because you're going to see very clearly, yes, you do have the aptitude to do this. Why don't you explore it? So that's key. And then let's talk about though avocations.
- [19:16]
Leslie Heaney
Right?
- [19:17]
Betsy Wills
Right. Yes. Because this doesn't just apply to your job. I think most of us are, have bought into the myth that there's one perfect job. There's not. Okay. But when you understand what your aptitudes are, you can see what you may have left on the table and what you need to maybe nurture to make that job you're doing for paid work more satisfying. You know, maybe it's taking a pottery class on the weekends or volunteering to be the treasurer at your, you know, church or volunteer organization. I mean, there's lots of ways to use them. I started an art blog which had nothing to do with, you know, work in investor relations and I've gotten so much joy out of that and I wasn't going to find an outlet for that in paid work.
- [19:59]
Leslie Heaney
So. Interesting. You do talk about that in the book, and I thought that that was such a important point to make is that, you know, I think we, we all do sort of compartmentalize. It's. Someone was saying or I read something about that we should all be approaching our life like preschoolers. Yes.
- [20:14]
Betsy Wills
Camp.
- [20:14]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, exactly. You have a nap, you know, you, but you're, but you're doing art and you're doing news or you're exposing yourselves to these different parts of your brain or kind of parts of your soul. And I love that you're discussing that. If you're not. If you, you have these aptitudes and you have these sort of natural affinities for certain things, or I guess not affinities, but talents for certain things. And you don't have to do it all in one from nine to five at your desk. They can be things that you're doing on the weekends or your hobbies or your volunteer work to help kind of fulfill those parts of you that are not being fulfilled at work. But I do love the idea that these 40 year old male lawyers, I think being a recovering lawyer myself, you know, the thought is when you go to law school, you're like, I just, you know, you're, that's gonna be a lawyer. And you can apply it to. Because it's the law, but it's actually it, it isn't. You kind of have to find your, which, your type of practice. And so I love that some other people have had a similar kind of, you know, epiphany that maybe this is not.
- [21:15]
Betsy Wills
But you know, I always tell people, don't put your job on the witness stand and interrogate it like you're the problem. I think a lot of, a lot of people's, you know, call it depression or wanting to quit. It could be that they have a bad boss or maybe they truly are miserable. But usually it's an, an aptitude they've discounted or left on the sideline and they need to draw that out and find a use for it.
- [21:39]
Leslie Heaney
So that is. And find they could find that outside of work and be satisfied, even sort of satisfied within work.
- [21:46]
Betsy Wills
Well, or you know, pivoting their practice maybe a little bit like someone with a spatial ability who's in law. Law is very abstract.
- [21:53]
Leslie Heaney
Yep.
- [21:54]
Betsy Wills
But there's quite a few lawyers who have spatial abilities and maybe they would enjoy, you know, doing more, getting more clients in real estate development for instance, or something. Manufacturing or patent law.
- [22:06]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, interesting.
- [22:07]
Betsy Wills
Or, you know, I knew lawyers who would go buy broken toasters at garage sales and they'd come home and put them together and take them apart and put them together on the weekend just because it made them happy to do that or, you know, so there's lots of ways. I know that sounds silly, but.
- [22:22]
Leslie Heaney
No, it doesn't. I think actually, for my own. In reading your book, it really had me reflect upon my own kind of career and professional journey and the things I enjoyed about practicing law. I practiced family law, matrimonial law. I enjoyed the contact with my clients. I enjoyed sort of.
- [22:41]
Betsy Wills
This is sort of similar.
- [22:42]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. Navigating, helping them navigate through things I did not enjoy. I didn't mind writing briefs. I hated doing research. I hated reading. Sort of like really kind of obtuse. Anyway. I just. There were so many things I hated about it, and I knew that it was. Anyway, I could go on and on. Should we get a sofa here?
- [23:01]
Betsy Wills
And.
- [23:04]
Leslie Heaney
But I feel like, you know, it was so interesting for me to read the assessments that. From your book that. My own report, because it really kind of honed in. The things that I liked about that job were the things that I had an aptitude for.
- [23:17]
Betsy Wills
Absolutely.
- [23:18]
Leslie Heaney
And the things I didn't were the things that I really didn't like about that job.
- [23:22]
Betsy Wills
Right. I mean, why. Why not just get off the struggle bus is, you know, just, you know, doing things that feel like an uphill battle are really, you know, hard. But I would not say that, you know, you don't have to do things that are hard. We do. But when you can see clearly with your aptitude pattern why that's harder for you or why you have to spend more time in that area, you can start to either offload those activities as much as possible or make time when it's something that is going to be a struggle for you and understand what's going on, you know, and that's okay because there's no perfect job. We can't just, like, I can't do that. But when you understand the. Why, you can tolerate it a lot better and diminish the impact that it may be having on you. That's what I'd say.
- [24:08]
Leslie Heaney
Well, one of the things I thought was really interesting, too, about the book is how you sort of set up to how you. How you got to where you are now in terms of sort of the history of how Americans have approached kind of career counseling.
- [24:21]
Betsy Wills
Right.
- [24:22]
Leslie Heaney
And so there is a long, really fascinating history right back. Was it Mark Twain that had his. You tell that Mark Twain story that in the book?
- [24:29]
Betsy Wills
Yeah. Well, that's just poppyville. Kind of. He went to get it. The fact is, is we have been using inadequate sets of tools. Yeah, okay. And we've effectively brought career management and guidance only recently out of the dark ages and into the data age. I mean, just like medicine, you expect that data will give you better outcomes. And that's the same with careers. Mark Twain, though, we talk about. We start the book with the story because it's true. He went to see a phrenologist.
- [24:59]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [24:59]
Betsy Wills
And it's hocus pocus, really. You know, they would feel your head and diagnose, you know, who your personality and abilities were.
- [25:08]
Leslie Heaney
But by the way, I love that he also was questioning what.
- [25:11]
Betsy Wills
Of course he was, but he was everyone.
- [25:13]
Leslie Heaney
What is his. You know, exactly.
- [25:15]
Betsy Wills
Everybody has the knee. So he went under an assumed name, and they started feeling his head, and they were like, oh, this is a bump here and a cavern here in your brain, you know, just feeling his skull. And they said, oh, dear, you know, there's no sense of humor here whatsoever. And, I mean, he was under an assumed name. And so then he goes back to the same person as Mark Twain, I think, four months later. And the man's like, oh, my goodness, feel this enormous sense of humor bump that you have. So it's just, you know, it. It's. We've come a long way, and there really are scientific ways now to assess our natural abilities. And, you know, our mission with the book and you science is to, you know, tell you. The good news is we can give you a much more refined sort of your possibilities.
- [26:04]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. It's so exciting. And I know you mentioned that it's in schools and isn't it so the entire state of Georgia. Yes, the public schools. Right. And how have they found.
- [26:13]
Betsy Wills
We're in every state but that. But they're doing it kind of universally with our company. That's where it started. But now, you know, it's everywhere. So 25% of all US high schools are using it now. It's incredible. Thank goodness is. Is really the thing. But the mission with my book is we had so many parents who would call or say, you know, yeah, why? I wish I'd had this. And the thing about aptitudes is, after we're 17, they don't change after we're.
- [26:40]
Leslie Heaney
Yes, we're. You talk about that. You and I talked about this in an earlier conversation. It's fascinating to me.
- [26:44]
Betsy Wills
Yes. So aptitudes are fixed after we finish puberty, but again, these are not skills. They're the seeds of our skills.
- [26:52]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [26:52]
Betsy Wills
So you can deploy them in many different ways all your life with learning new things, whatever that is. But they should be in alignment with your aptitudes. So yes you're a lawyer, but that, you know, you can see that's not the only one career that you could have. But you are best and are attracted to using this same set of aptitudes in different ways. So you can take this at 1737. We even have people in the book who took it at 79 years old. And one of them had taken it, he's the White House usher actually or the former one. And he had taken it 30 years ago at Johnson O' Connor like I had. And so we said, well would you take it again, you know, using the you science online because it's the same assessment and of course he scored exactly the same. So that's the good news.
- [27:41]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, it's so, so how is, you know, you've got you, it's deployed, it's in schools. And how are the schools using it? So the kids, they get their report which everyone who's listening wants you take it. I was just telling a friend about it. I couldn't get over the level of detail.
- [27:55]
Betsy Wills
Right.
- [27:55]
Leslie Heaney
I mean it's a, I wish I had it with me. I left 27 pages or 30. I mean it's really incredibly like a 50 page report.
- [28:03]
Betsy Wills
You also get reports for helping you write your resume, talk about yourself interview. I mean there's a million tools. It opens up sort of as you saw an online kind of career portal that you can come back to 10 years from now because you know, when we're making career decisions it's very episodic and so we wanted it to go with you instead of be trapped in a counselor's office.
- [28:24]
Leslie Heaney
Well, one of the things I, I, I had recently gone to go speak to a friend's class that of her call at her she's a college professor and I took the assessment after the fact and I noticed that one of the careers was school administrator or teacher. And I'm like, because I really, I loved it. I guess that was, I left, I said to my husband, I really enjoyed that. I wonder if there's, you know, so it was really interesting to see that that was one of the options the careers that spit out after I took the assessment. I mean I really think it's such an exciting, such an exciting tool and just incredibly impactful for particularly young people. But people, you know, that are kind of at their midlife saying, you know, I'm trying something different, you know, Do a podcast.
- [29:05]
Betsy Wills
I mean, everybody. I mean, I was again 32 when I took it the first time. But, you know, I go back to my results often as I'm making any kind of decision. And in my marriage, we use the results well. Oh, man. You know, because, I mean, it's not, again, it's not just about your job. It's about how you relate to people, how you lead, how your team works. You can find out so, so much about that, but just understanding your own aptitudes and then not looking at other people as a flawed version of you. Okay. It's, it's really interesting, Leslie. It's about empathy and love.
- [29:38]
Leslie Heaney
Interesting.
- [29:39]
Betsy Wills
Yeah. Looking at your children like, you know, all that potential, but not, you know, putting them in a box of what you know necessarily, but looking at what their options might be and encouraging them to explore them. Not to make a decision too quickly, but to really find that marriage and their fit.
- [29:59]
Leslie Heaney
That is so fascinating. I, you know, I gave, I emailed my report to my husband, I said, would you read this? This has been, this is nuts. I mean, this is like I went to a, you know, again, like a, like a fortune teller and a, and a therapist and a, you know, a shaman. I mean, I felt like I was covering past lives, future lives. And he was blown away by how accurate he felt it was.
- [30:23]
Betsy Wills
Well, and he knows you.
- [30:24]
Leslie Heaney
Right? I just thought it was really, really fascinating. So in schools. So let's take Georgia as an example because they've rolled it out statewide. Are they, then they're taking this, the students are taking it, and then are they, then are the high schools there trying to help guide them to what would be a good.
- [30:41]
Betsy Wills
Yes. And again, you know, however many high school students there are in the United States, it's huge. And a huge number of these people go to four year universities and onto professional schools after that. And then a huge number are CTE students, career and technical education students.
- [30:59]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [30:59]
Betsy Wills
And that is a really incredible thing because it doesn't just say, you know, the results. You can sort by how much education do you think you really want to have or what can you afford? There's a lot of ways to sort the career suggestions based on who you are, where you are, up to you, how much, how much, how motivated are you, or, you know, what, what do you want to do? So they're using it to help students make decisions around their next education level post high school, whether it is CTE or four year college, etc. And so some of the things that you. Science also offers is certifications. So for someone who doesn't actually want to move to a four year university, they could get a certification and get to work right away. But again, if you are someone who wants to do four year education, it's going to, you know, guide you towards that as well. So it's not one size fits all.
- [31:55]
Leslie Heaney
You know, that's so interesting because I do know a lot of younger people, late 20s, 30s, who will have three different master's degrees, I'm not kidding. In different, different fields. And then they end up going to do something totally different. Totally different.
- [32:09]
Betsy Wills
Right.
- [32:10]
Leslie Heaney
And so it's so interesting, you know, that's, I was curious about how they're using it because I think in so many instances, people coming out of college, people we talked about earlier, people even our age are not always like, they don't really know what they want to do or what they're meant to do. And so you sort of, sometimes you just try on the different hats and see what kind of fits. But this is so exciting because it's giving them the tools to help kind.
- [32:33]
Betsy Wills
Of narrow down, just try to narrow, I mean, not have as many zigzags as they do. I mean the people who most often call me honestly are 26 year olds who somehow didn't get this and they've, you know, they, it's sort of like they test out different things and they feel like they should know and they've spent all this money in college and you know, the end of the road is not there. I mean it. Just because you major in something doesn't mean you can't change. Of course. Yeah. What we do want is for people to at least know themselves well enough to, you know, pick a major that, that can be applied into some skill as you grow. I mean, careers are really not chosen, they're constructed and it's over a long period of time. That's the truth. But you don't want to be just wandering around in the dark all the time. And this really brings that clarity and confidence.
- [33:23]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, a hundred percent. And I think, you know, looking at how Jeff Bezos, I obviously am not or one of these visionaries, Elon Musk, but I, you know, AI obviously is, you know, going to play a big role in the job market going it already sort of is a little bit. It's going to continue to be definitely. And so we're all going to need to be pretty flexible and be willing to pivot right into different fields. And so kind of having this, this roadmap, you know, and this.
- [33:51]
Betsy Wills
Yeah. I mean, it's equipping you.
- [33:53]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [33:54]
Betsy Wills
With the class we really should be taking in college, which is in high school, which is how to manage your career. Career.
- [34:00]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [34:00]
Betsy Wills
It's not necessarily to pick your career, it's how am I going to manage this? Because we don't even know what the job's going to be in 10 years. And that's getting, you know, more and more of a drumbeat now that, you know, this feeling of obsolescence or fear and this gets you back to center. Who am I, you know, what are the skills that I can develop in myself? What are the, the seeds of those skills that I can keep deploying to meet that marketplace in the best way I can?
- [34:29]
Leslie Heaney
So when the 26 year old comes to you and it's kind of lost. Right.
- [34:33]
Betsy Wills
Yeah.
- [34:34]
Leslie Heaney
I love what you just said about learning how to manage your career. What is the guidance that you give to them in terms of career management?
- [34:42]
Betsy Wills
Right. I mean, number one, people don't know how to talk about themselves. And so this gives you the tools to do that. There's all kinds of reports. Again, when you take this, I would say start with an assessment like this. Understand who you are, but then take those examples of things that you felt in the flow that match your aptitudes and start learning how to talk about yourself in a way that makes you appealing to the marketplace in general. And then really the key is getting unstuck by exploring. I always tell people, have a hundred conversations. I know that's daunting, but if you do have a hundred conversations with people, I mean, you're close circle and on out, you're going to learn a lot. The thing that people do is they default. They don't make choices, they actually default because defaulting is when you don't have choices in front of you that are real.
- [35:34]
Leslie Heaney
So defaulting you. An example of that for you might be, you know, someone doing, going on five different job interviews and got an offer from a company and taking the first one. Right.
- [35:45]
Betsy Wills
I mean, would you marry the first guy you kissed?
- [35:47]
Leslie Heaney
Yes.
- [35:48]
Betsy Wills
Sorry. But I mean, what people do is they get desperate.
- [35:52]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [35:52]
Betsy Wills
So they just take something and then they're miserable and then they jump out of that, you know, fire into the frying pan over and over and over again. It becomes a habit of defaulting instead of taking stock and really, truly exploring and creating, you know, if you have to create three job offers, that's hard work.
- [36:11]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [36:13]
Betsy Wills
But you're going to make an actual decision when you have three options. Whereas if you have one option, that's really a default.
- [36:19]
Leslie Heaney
I love the 100 conversations. When I mentioned that I spoke to my friend's class. You know, one of the things, a lot of the, the questions from students were about, you know, not knowing what their next step was. You know, things along those lines based on the course that she was teaching. And I said, you know, you're in a really unique position because you're in college, you're a young person, and people love talking to young people.
- [36:40]
Betsy Wills
Oh, they're happy to.
- [36:41]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. But I think people love talking to anybody. In my experience, for example, in starting this podcast, which was really kind of a bit out of nowhere, having I used to moderate this symposium for New York Presbyterian, and the same sound guy, you know, Steve would always hook up them every year. And I. And I came, you know, I finished and I went to have the microphone taken off. He's like, you know, you're good at this. You should really have a podcast.
- [37:07]
Betsy Wills
Right.
- [37:07]
Leslie Heaney
And I thought, gosh, you know, I really enjoy preparing for these symposiums. Maybe I should try that. And I can barely. I mean, Betsy knows I got lost here because I was looking at one.
- [37:18]
Betsy Wills
Well, your aptitude pattern, this job. Leslie, you're perfect.
- [37:22]
Leslie Heaney
But I mean, I. But I, you know, it's just I have no business doing anything, like, online or like, you know, I can't follow a map. Obviously I went to the wrong place this morning. But. But, you know, it's. It's interesting when you just kind of realize that you don't have to have all the. Now all the skill sets for that particular job. Right. You can sort of find the thing among your. Within your aptitude that is a match, and then fill the other parts out. Yeah.
- [37:48]
Betsy Wills
Upload the other or outsource the other, whatever it is. Exactly right.
- [37:52]
Leslie Heaney
Reaching out to people, they love to have the conversation. Or asking someone, if you just ask someone for advice. I think uniquely young people could sort of talk to anybody because people want to help college students and, and younger people, but even midlife folks like myself, I feel like I sort of, you.
- [38:11]
Betsy Wills
Know, yeah, keep talking. You may end up in a new career after today. But I mean, let's talk about the hundred conversations. Because what I always advise people, I'm like, call your aunt or call your next door neighbor and just say, I am having. I am. My goal is to have 100 conversations, okay. And then the heat is off that person because they're not. They're not being asked to worry about what your job's going to be.
- [38:37]
Leslie Heaney
Yes. Or to connect you with somebody.
- [38:39]
Betsy Wills
Or they do, because they're now they're invested Right. When you started off and just say, you know what my goal is over the next month, I'm going to have a hundred conversations. And so I just want to ask you a few things about what you do. And then, hey, if you know anybody else I should speak with, let me know. And they'll be like, oh, yes, call so and so, call so and so. Then all of a sudden you have all this team on your team and they're thinking about you and they're going to say, you know, I think you'd be perfect for this role and they're going to recommend you. Most of our, you know, jobs are actually gotten through loose ties.
- [39:12]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [39:13]
Betsy Wills
It's amazing. But you've got to get out there and you got to talk. But you don't have to be in a subservient sort of like, please, can you help me?
- [39:20]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, it's just.
- [39:21]
Betsy Wills
We're just talking.
- [39:23]
Leslie Heaney
I love that. I love how the importance of how the person who's asking for the conversation frames the ask.
- [39:28]
Betsy Wills
Frame it. Right.
- [39:29]
Leslie Heaney
Because, yeah, if people know that there's 99 other people that are doing this too, I feel like there's any, you know, particular pressure. And the person that's having the conversation is learning so much from the person that they asked.
- [39:42]
Betsy Wills
Well, and at that college age, or yes.
- [39:45]
Leslie Heaney
About to be. Yeah.
- [39:46]
Betsy Wills
Think about how much work it is to apply for college.
- [39:49]
Leslie Heaney
I know.
- [39:50]
Betsy Wills
Well, if people put even a scintilla of that much work into looking for their job, they would end up in a great spot. But somehow or another this interesting ends, you know, when you're out of college, it's expected, like, okay, there's going to be a magical job that lands on you. No, you have to work at that just like you did to get into college. But it can be fun, you know.
- [40:13]
Leslie Heaney
Well, I think what's interesting too is that, you know, and it's, it's more and more, if you talk to college counselors, for example, they're like, you have to frame, you know, or you have to sort of tell your story. Who are you to the college admissions person.
- [40:27]
Betsy Wills
Right.
- [40:27]
Leslie Heaney
Which is asking a lot of a, you know, 14, 15, 16, 17 year old. Then they get to a liberal arts college. Maybe they think, you know what I really want a major in? I don't know, this or that, whatever it is, biology. Because I think I want to be a doctor.
- [40:41]
Betsy Wills
Oh, 50% of the wake Forest's class Enters going to be premeditated, isn't it? So about 8%.
- [40:49]
Leslie Heaney
When we were, when we were touring different colleges, it was tons of computer science, which is actually terrific. I mean, these are all things that we need. But it was interesting to me. And then the one kid, you know, they'd go around the circle asking what your, you know, what your. What your major was or what your interest was.
- [41:06]
Betsy Wills
Yeah.
- [41:06]
Leslie Heaney
And then you'd have the one kid out of the 12 that would say, undecided, kind of turn to them, like, what is going on? And it was just as if they were confessing, like, you know, the most, like, horrible thing. But. But it shouldn't be. It should be. As you said, it's such a great way to think about. It is, you know, for them to spend as much time also in college, I think college, sometimes they're scrambling, thinking, I have to have that internship, so I have a job when I graduate.
- [41:31]
Betsy Wills
Yeah.
- [41:32]
Leslie Heaney
So figuring out the timing and how people can use this tool.
- [41:36]
Betsy Wills
Well, again, this will help you describe yourself and to kind of narrow down this tyranny of choice that comes with the message, you can do anything.
- [41:47]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [41:48]
Betsy Wills
No, you shouldn't. I mean, yes, you can with practice, but why would you.
- [41:53]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [41:54]
Betsy Wills
You know, so that's not a really good message. You should be anything.
- [41:58]
Leslie Heaney
So that's. I always say, like, passion. Yeah. I like you. You know, which, by the way, that saying, follow your passion, I feel like, is such a hard message because you're. At least. This was my own experience. So, like, I'm not quite sure exactly what that is.
- [42:13]
Betsy Wills
No, I. I say br. Bring passion.
- [42:15]
Leslie Heaney
Okay.
- [42:15]
Betsy Wills
To your work. Okay. Find something where you can bring your passion and so spend time knowing yourself and then exploring first. I mean, we don't have a talent gap in this country.
- [42:27]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [42:27]
Betsy Wills
What we have is an exposure gap.
- [42:30]
Leslie Heaney
Interesting. Well, that is also, as I mentioned, you know, my own report. One of the things, for me that was so terrific about thinking about the different ways these reports can be deployed is that you're looking at all of the different options that are things you might have never even heard of. And if you're a young person who's thinking about, do I go to a vocational school? That might make the most sense because I really enjoy that and I'm good at it, as opposed to continuing to get a liberal arts degree in something that I may never enjoy or pursue setup.
- [43:04]
Betsy Wills
You can see what the average salary is, where the jobs are, what states those jobs are in. What does this job do? There's a lot of information. After you take the assessment on that platform, that. That gives you clarity of just like, what is this? You don't have to call someone. You can read about it first.
- [43:21]
Leslie Heaney
Well, what I love too, about the book and everyone listening has to run out and buy the book because you will love the book. It's really just. It's just like getting a kind of a window into your. Yourself. You start reading and it kind of explains kind of the background and what's going to. What. What is happening. And then you stop and you take the assessment.
- [43:39]
Betsy Wills
Right. Chapter three, page 28.
- [43:40]
Leslie Heaney
And then you read through. But it was, for me, such a great read. And by the way, you are a terrific writer and so is your co author, Alex Ellison. I was really quite impressed by just, my gosh, this is your first book. And it was just a page turner and I was engaged. It was great and incredibly, as I mentioned, transformative for me. And the report is, you know, I feel like I should give it to my children, give it to my. Give it to my parents.
- [44:11]
Betsy Wills
Yeah. Well, I'm glad you gave it to your husband. I mean, it really can open up some nice conversations.
- [44:17]
Leslie Heaney
Well, now I want him to take it because I know sort of I know what I think, you know, the different pieces to that puzzle are. But it'd be interesting for him to sort of think, gosh, maybe that does explain why.
- [44:28]
Betsy Wills
Did I tell you about my husband's results?
- [44:30]
Leslie Heaney
No.
- [44:31]
Betsy Wills
Okay. Well, just an example. My husband has perfect pitch, which we actually is not related to music. It's related to your ability to discern really fine differences in things. Like, that's crooked. This doesn't taste right. That's off. It can be sound, but it's. It's so many other things. And I am a 98 percenter. You know, I will leave that wine glass out by the sink at night. Yeah, I'll get that in the morning.
- [45:03]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [45:04]
Betsy Wills
Well, all he sees is what's off. And so he would come in and be like, why is the house so dirty? Looking at the one wine glass. And I would be like, I am really. This is not going to work between us at all. But when we found out that that was one of his aptitudes, then we really understood why it was.
- [45:21]
Leslie Heaney
Yes.
- [45:22]
Betsy Wills
That that's where his eye was going, you know, in the house. And it took the personal aspect of it.
- [45:28]
Leslie Heaney
Yes.
- [45:28]
Betsy Wills
I still said, please don't criticize me.
- [45:31]
Leslie Heaney
I think that this can be used for, you know, career development and marriage counseling.
- [45:36]
Betsy Wills
Yes and no. But it's true. It really can be. So, you know, the growth is, is in every part of your life, not just your career.
- [45:43]
Leslie Heaney
Well, it is an incredible book. It is an incredible sort of service that you're doing for our communities and our country. Because I, I think it is something that so many people struggle with. And as you said, people often, they're depressed or they just feel, you know, like they haven't really found their, their why. Yes, as the young people like to say, I've all of these 20 something being like, what's your why? I'm like, oh my gosh. I mean, but, but now I, now I have so many more, so much more, more information and tools and guidance on how I can talk about my why. But it really is a tremendous service. I am just a huge, huge fan and a real advocate of people going through this process and taking this test and buying your book.
- [46:28]
Betsy Wills
Invite all your listeners to do it. And as you know, there's a code on the back of the book. Yes, every book has one code to take the assessment, which is a great deal because if you go online, it's $49.
- [46:39]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [46:40]
Betsy Wills
But the book you can just buy and it includes that.
- [46:42]
Leslie Heaney
Yes. No, I got my code again, seeing that that's not one of my aptitudes, figuring out how to do those things. There's also a help desk which I, which helped guide me. But I know that 99% of the people listening will be able to do it without the help desk. But, but it was, as I said, such a helpful exercise for me. And I think it's going to be so helpful to everyone who takes it and who buys the book. So Hidden Genius by Betsy Wills and Alex Ellison. And Betsy, thank you so much for coming to talk to us about it today.
- [47:13]
Betsy Wills
Thank you.
- [47:14]
Leslie Heaney
So fun always to see you.
- [47:15]
Betsy Wills
You too.
- [47:18]
Leslie Heaney
That brings us to the end of this episode of the interview. Huge thank you to Betsy Wills for joining us. And as always, thank you all so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We release a new episode every Wednesday, so until next Wednesday, this is Leslie. And thank you for joining the interview.