A (3:17)

And I, Holly, sort of interrupt you. Was it just the pain or was there. Did you also discover a lump? Just the pain.

B (3:23)

Just the pain. Yep. Just the pain. Yeah. And it turns out that I had dense breasts, which increases the likelihood of a breast cancer diagnosis. I didn't know this because I had no family history, and I had no reason to suspect anything. So I go to the mammogram and ultrasound appointment, and I knew there was an issue when the radiologist said that he wanted to see me before leaving. And I remember walking into his office and seeing images of my breasts on these four large computer monitors. And I thought, that's not good.

A (4:03)

Yeah.

B (4:04)

And the radiologist said, you're a nurse, right? And I said yes confidently. And he then said, well, that means I can talk with you more frankly than I could someone else. And I said yes. Now kind of hesitant, and we were.

A (4:21)

Saying, maybe I don't want you to do. I would correct that. Yeah.

B (4:25)

So he went on to say, you have four tumors in your right breast and three in your left, and we need to do a biopsy this afternoon for what I highly suspect to be breast cancer. I don't remember much about that day, but my clinical experience told me that people typically forget most everything that comes after the word cancer. So intuitively, I needed. Knew that I needed to write down everything that I was about to hear. And I remember reaching for the journal that was in my bag and looking at my hands, and they were literally shaking. So in an instant, my world stopped.

A (5:04)

And how did you. So you. You get this diagnosis and then walk us through. Because you had. I think there was a point where you sort of decided very intentionally that you were going to have the roles be reversed, right? Because you had been a. You know, through being a nurse and a social worker, a caregiver. And you said, sort of said to yourself, okay, I have to step back here and say, how would I help a girlfriend? How would I help a patient? And you talked about sort of putting on your virtual scrubs, which I thought was such a. Like a Beautiful and powerful way to put it. But was that. Was that something that you just. That came sort of shortly thereafter, the diagnosis, or how did you make that call?

B (5:46)

I found myself in this unique position, moving from the side of the bed as a healthcare professional into the bed as a patient. And it gave me this whole new conscious sensitivity to the physical aspects of being a patient, the emotional aspects of. Of being a patient. And shortly after my diagnosis, I literally felt like I was lost in.

A (6:11)

A.

B (6:11)

Cobweb filled forest, one in which I had never been. I literally had no idea which way to turn or how to proceed, proceed. And so I gave myself kind of this snap out of it moment and reminded myself, okay, you're a nurse and a social worker and have a lot of experience. There's actually no one better prepared to handle what you're facing. So I asked myself, how would I help a patient who was in the situation? And then more personally, how would I help a friend? And that's how I shifted my perspective, to be able to move myself from what felt like a state of paralysis after a cancer diagnosis into a place of action. And so that's how it went. And it was almost this slightly dissociated space where I was a clinician telling myself what to do, what do I need to do first? And the first thing that I reminded myself, and this is the case with the majority of cancer diagnoses, is, though, it feels like an emergency. And boy, oh boy, do I know that it does. It actually isn't. And so I needed to. To create a bit of space to pause and to recalibrate and approach this from a very calm, rational perspective. And that helped immensely because a cancer diagnosis absolutely feels like an emergency. And it's, what do I need to do right now? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Pump the brakes a bit. Start with pumping the brakes.

A (7:56)

It's so understandable that you would feel that way, particularly when you go in for a mammogram. You think it's nothing, you're 39, you don't have a lump, you just have pain. And then the radiologist says, we have to biopsy these this afternoon. So that definitely sort of adds a layer of urgency, right? If I were in your shoes, it's absolutely understandable and that you would feel like, okay, the train has left the station and we need to start moving really fast to start addressing whatever this is. You decided at that moment that you were going to sort of figure out how you could advise yourself like you would advise someone else. Did you have experience with Cancer patients before that, you kind of knew that roadmap, or was it just more about you kind of taking that deep breath and being intentional about what next steps do I think I might need to take in order to get the best care?

B (8:48)

Yes. Yes. I both had professional experience working with people who had cancer, as well as my very best friend, with whom I went to nursing school, had had breast cancer about two years prior to me. So after I left the radiologist's office, my first call was to my primary physician, with whom I had a great relationship. And he was the first one who said, whoa, whoa, whoa.

A (9:19)

Let's.

B (9:20)

Let's take a beat here. Hold on. And so we started to make a plan, and he said, you actually don't need a biopsy this afternoon. I really would prefer that you have a breast surgeon do your biopsy. And that was fantastic. I felt incredibly fortunate that I have had the opportunity to have health care where I can call my doctor, have a conversation.

A (9:48)

Right.

B (9:49)

And then take very thoughtful steps forward. And then my second call was to my best friend, and it was, you're never going to believe this. I'm following in your footsteps. And between my best friend and my physician, they were the ones who really helped to remind me that this is not an emergency. And so that's when I was able to take a step back. How would I help a patient, many of whom I had in the past, and how would I help a friend?

A (10:22)

So when your primary doctor said, let's take a deep breath, and I don't want you to have the biopsy this afternoon. I want you to have it from a breast surgeon. I think for people who are listening, who may have just gotten a diagnosis or have friends who have. I myself have been involved with Memorial Sloan Kettering for a long time. So I will get a friend that will call me and say, can you help me? I need to find an expert here or here. But I'm going to this doctor or this doctor. And I've always said to them, you really want to start with your. With going to the surgeon that would be doing. At the hospital. We were doing your. After treatment. And try to go to a cancer center if you can, because that's all they do, right. Is they specialize in cancer. Is that something like, what recommendations would you give for people who've. They just walked into the radiologist and they got a diagnosis. Because to your point, it is so overwhelming. And the whole. It's just like the world stops. Right? What you're describing of. I don't really remember what happened that day is so common because you're just sort of in shock by what has just been told to you. So what would you, as a first step, as a healthcare professional, what would be some recommendations from you about what people should do once they hear you hear the C word and like, and then what. The deep breath is a great one. You know, just that it's not that, you know, we don't have to act at this exact moment.

B (11:43)

Deep breathing. Yeah, it's. It's funny when we get, when we move into that sympathetic state of our nervous system and it's fight or flight, it's just, hold on, breathe, breathe. Remind yourself that this is not an emergency. And you're absolutely right about ideally being able to go to a facility, to an institution where this is what they do. And typically, typically radiologists don't do biopsies on a regular basis. Some, some may, but this. Typically, they don't. And my physician, who sent me directly to a breast surgeon, his explanation to me was, some radiologists who are not necessarily experienced in doing biopsies can miss the tumor and cause bruising that can either cover tumors and block them, so you're not able to see them or access them. And so it can, it can actually cause more harm than good. So that's one of the benefits to taking a step back, getting your ducks in a row, talking with your primary care physician, if you have one, and moving methodically, moving slowly. After I did get the diagnosis, I began to assemble a team of doctors, as you alluded to, Leslie, you know, going to an MSK type of cancer institution, that's a, that's the thing to do. You know, this is, this is what they do. And so many people believe or are told by a primary care physician that, well, this is going to be your oncologist, this is going to be your surgeon. And so they. People have a tendency to believe that, but it's actually not true. You know, the most important thing that a person with a disease process, with a cancer process can do is assemble a team of people to care for them. And I always use the analogy of you're not going to build a house with someone who says, well, this is going to be your builder. You're going to interview builders, you're going to interview architects, you're going to interview people who are going to build your house or do a renovation. Well, health care is the exact same way. And especially, and you know, I really want to reiterate that it's, I'm speaking from A place of privilege, a place of access, a place of health care experience. I have insurance, and there are a lot of people who don't have that. And I worked as a nurse and a social worker with many people who don't. And that makes it even more challenging.

A (14:40)

So it's so funny. I mean, we didn't know each other, Holly, back. Back then, but I have a very dear friend who was diagnosed with colon cancer. And when it happened, I remember having conversations with her husband about really, you know, wanting them to go to Sloan Kettering. They were living in Connecticut, but not too far. And they had someone was at local doctor and that they knew was a great guy. And I said to my very dear friend's husband, you would get two quotes to tile your bathroom. Why are we not meeting with multiple doctors and his Sloan Kettering? But I use that. It's so funny that you also use the house analogy, because it's so true. There's nothing more important than your health. And yet I think sometimes when you're faced with this daunting diagnosis and the fear and everything, you just want just sort of, as you said, you kind of instinctively want to move quickly and maybe perhaps figure out something that's comfortable, like, well, this person's right next door or this place is. But it's really important that you take the step back and try to find the best place and the best team for you. And part of that involves, as you said, interviewing. And one of the things you said is you can actually interview your oncologist, which I don't think people realize.

B (15:56)

No, I interviewed three oncologists before I found the right connection. So something that was very important to me was to have palliative care on my team. Palliative care is an area of medicine that specializes in pain and symptom management. Many people associate palliative care with hospice and end of life. End of life?

A (16:21)

Yeah.

B (16:22)

Palliative care is not exclusively end of life. Are they part and parcel of hospice care? Absolutely. And pain and symptom management is their focus and their expertise. So I remember interviewing one woman, and she was kind of bossy, kind of insistent, and I didn't like the vibe just to begin. And I said, well, I'm planning on having palliative care as part of my team. And then she went into this awful, oh, Holly, you're being dramatic. You're not dying. You just have breast cancer and you don't need palliative care. Well, in addition to knowing definitely that I was not going to hire her I proceeded to school her on exactly what palliative care is and what palliative care does. I said, I'm about to have a double mastectomy and reconstruction, six months of chemotherapy, 30 rounds of radiation. There could be some pain, there can be some symptom issues that I'm going to want to have palliative care on my team. Maybe I would never even need to use them, but I'm going to have them on my team. So I schooled her and then proceeded to tell her that I'm not going to hire you because of the way that you've treated me, and I really hope that you don't this way. And then I went on to. And it was really. It was the oncologist I ended up working with. Ah, he's fantastic. And I'm sitting there and I'm talking with him, and I'm just kind of like, yeah, you're, you know, you're my guy. You're awesome. And then he said, now I just want to let you know that we have palliative care for all of our patients, and that is part of our care. I was like, you're hired.

A (18:06)

You're ed.

B (18:07)

Totally an example of the interview process. And just because you're scared, just because someone's wearing a white coat, just because someone has a different area of education or expertise than you, doesn't mean that they know more about you, that they know more about what's best for you, because they don't.

A (18:30)

So it sort of goes back to that, you know, old, you know, sort of advice that you, you are your best advocate and you need to be your best advocate.

B (18:39)

Absolutely.

A (18:40)

So who else? So you knew because of your. Your own professional experience, palliative care should definitely be part of your team. What other doctors or, you know, care providers did you feel were important to have as part of your team? As you said, even if you don't even use them, you want to be sort of ahead of the game and proactive. Right. So you're not in the middle of treatment, feeling miserable, and then trying to find a palliative care doctor. But who else. Who else was or what other professions you think it was important to have part of your group?

B (19:11)

So. So there's a really holistic component aspect to the cancer experience. And typically, cancer centers have teams available. So, for example, nutrition is very, very important, especially as you may or may not develop side effects to treatments, having psychosocial support through in the form of a therapist, a coach, a social worker, and again, to reiterate These people are typically at a cancer center. Child life specialists are very important to help facilitate conversations with children in a family. At the time of my diagnosis, my daughter was four and three quarters. At that age, every quarter counts, you know.

A (20:09)

Yeah.

B (20:10)

And so I'm very acutely aware as a pediatric hospice nurse that children need to be included in a cancer experience from the time of diagnosis through treatment and recovery. And there are ways to inquire, incorporate children using developmentally appropriate language, different communication techniques with children. So a child life specialist is a very important component to the team. I had excruciating awful nausea and so I worked with an acupuncturist to mitigate those symptoms. I did yoga with the, through the cancer center and that was incredibly helpful just to, for my, for my body and stretching and finding comfort in breath work. Meditation is another important to it. And again, I'm repeating myself intentionally to reiterate that the teams of people are typically available at a place where they do cancer treatment.

A (21:25)

And did you, so when you, before you told your daughter, did you, you spoke to the child life specialist first to kind of get guidance on the best way to have that conversation. And then I remember reading that you, that you also sort of brought your daughter along. I think you brought her to a radiology appointment. You really had her be part of it. Because I think some parents want to protect their children from, you know, any sort of upsetting thing that a parent is going through. But I think you made the point that the walls have ears. They know what's going on and it's probably less anxiety provoking for them and stressful if they actually have some real visibility into what your treatments are and how you're working to get well than to kind of shut them out of your process and your recovery.

B (22:14)

As a child development specialist myself and a pediatric hospice nurse, I knew how.

A (22:22)

To, how to do it. I say okay.

B (22:25)

And so, you know, all too often parents, healthcare professionals, they don't include children because they believe that they're too young, they couldn't possibly understand or it's too painful now. It's painful, it's awful. However, not including them is far worse. They can understand children as young as age 2 can understand using developmentally appropriate language. And here's the thing that a lot of people don't know is that when children are not included, their imaginations create things that are far worse than the and than the reality. And people say, oh my gosh, well, what could be far worse? Well, I'll tell you. A child in the Developmental stage of three to five and upwards, have something called magical thinking. Magical thinking is a beautiful thing. They think that everything that happens in their world and around their world happens because they make it happen. Right. But here's the thing.

A (23:36)

Well, that's great. I wish we could bottle that for, you know.

B (23:41)

But here's the thing. The flip side of that coin is children that age think that they can cause cancer. Oh, because I misbehaved, Mommy got cancer, or I can get rid of the cancer. And when they can't, then they feel guilty or they think something's wrong with them.

A (24:01)

Right.

B (24:01)

So their imagination has the capacity to create things that are far worse than reality. So when it came time to talk with my daughter, I mean, talk about irony, here I was in this position now having to utilize the advice that I had given to so many people over the years. And yet my guiding light was that children always know. They always know. And so working with a child life specialist, they can help you prepare for the conversation, which involves literally writing down what you're going to say. I practiced in front of the mirror what I was going to say. I planned for it. I had another adult with me when I told her. And so there are ways to do it. And I can't overstate the importance of including children.

A (24:50)

So you mentioned I had some. Another adult there with me when I told her. One of the other, I think, important things and as sort of part of your team, is to have someone there who's with you. Right. Who can document what your doctors are saying, what recommendations they're making. Because I do think there is a. And again, I just have experienced this through close friends and family. But there's a sort of fog that overtakes you because you're just focusing on what's coming next and don't have really the capacity to listen to the details in between. So it's good to have another adult there who's going to your appointments or taking notes, that sort of thing.

B (25:30)

Absolutely. It's ideal if you can have someone come with you who is organized, who's efficient, who can take notes. You know, prior to every appointment, it's really important to write down a list of questions and be prepared for your meeting. Approach it as though it is a business meeting and you're going into it in an organized way. And again, if you're foggy, which I was very foggy a lot prior to any and every conversation I had with a. With a physician, with a therapist, a nutritionist, I would always write down my list of Questions prior to going to an appointment. The appointments, they tend to be pretty quick. They. They have to be in the healthcare environment in which we live. And so making the. The best use of every moment of a meeting, I'll just call it a meeting, is really, really valuable. You can record meetings on your phone, on your devices.

A (26:33)

That's a great tip because then it's sort of in live time, you know, that, you know, the person that's there didn't miss anything that's there kind of taking notes. But I love that idea of being of thinking because it is so true. You have a certain amount of time with the doctor, and then when you're in the conversation, it happens for all different doctor's appointments, whether you're going for cancer or not. Just having, you know, knowing ahead of time what. What is an important question that's on your mind that you want to make sure that you get answered before you walk out that door is really important.

B (27:02)

Absolutely. I mean, I can't tell you the number of patients I've worked with who have said, oh, I wish I would have asked that question. Oh, why that question? So preparing that, you know you're gonna have an appointment and you can just jot down, you know, jot down your questions. There's no dumb question. There's just no dumb question. So ask any and all questions and go into every meeting appointment with a list of questions. And as the person with the cancer, I would go in and I would just sort of be present. And so I knew that I had someone with me who could take notes, who was recording the conversation. And then it was truly, truly a conversation that I was able to have with, you know, the physician, nurse practitioner, nutritionist, whoever I was meeting with.

A (27:52)

So in addition to your whole professional team that you assembled, your whole professional medical team, you also kind of came, you had engaged with friends in your community and had sort of a support team outside of that. And one of the things that you've said that I think is so powerful is that asking for help as a sign of strength, not a sign of weakness. Tell us about that. How did you engage your friends and family to sort of help you through this process? And did you sort of approach it in the same sort of organized and way that you did your medical treatment?

B (28:22)

No. Basically a hot mess when it came to that. It took cancer. I mean, literally it took cancer for me to get the meaning of that because I had been so stubborn. I was a no, I've got it, I can handle, I can do it. Kind of gal. You know, we live in this culture that's so upside down that says that. That, you know, you're weak if you need help. Well, I had subscribed to that, and cancer taught me an altogether different lesson. And so it started with being vulnerable. I mean, with. With my treatment, I was as sick as a person could be. And it turns out that that vulnerability is also a sign of self care, of courage, and of resilience. And so I learned that asking for help is truly a sign of strength, not weakness. And here's the other thing. Cancer doesn't happen in isolation. In other words, it didn't just happen to me. It happened to my friends, my family, and my community. And so people in my life were looking for ways to be a part of that experience. And so giving people things to do that could be helpful, that would enable me to just be. Was an absolutely great path forward. So my daughter's best friend's mom would pick her up from preschool and take her on play dates three, four, five, five times a week. You know, keeping a very regular schedule and routine for my daughter was also very important. Routines and schedules are so important for children. Allowing her to play well, that gave my. My girlfriend, you know, a sense of purpose and inclusion in the process. I have another friend who's an amazing cook, and she would drop food off, you know, three or four times a week, you know, for me and for my family. I had another friend who loved my dog and would take my dog for a walk. And so there are all these different ways that friends and community members and family members can. Can really help.

A (30:46)

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B (32:59)

Absolutely.

A (33:00)

So I love thinking about it that way. So you also, your husband, that's the other person, right. That you talk about making the ripple effect and making sure that. That your partner is okay as they're going through it or just coming up with ways so you can sort of recognize and support them. And one of the thoughts that you had, it wasn't the only reason why you did it, but was writing a blog to let people know what was happening with your treatments. And I think one of the reasons you said it was so powerful to do it so that your husband, when he went out with his friends, didn't have to talk about what was going on with your cancer treatment the whole time he could say, did you read Holly's blog talk about that? I just thought that was such a beautiful thing that you did. And what a great. Another sort of benefit of doing it was, you know, giving your husband that sort of outlet to direct his friends to.

B (33:51)

Absolutely. It was truly for him, you know, and I also didn't want him to feel the pressure of having to describe what was happening or what was going on. And so, yeah, when he left the house and I encouraged him to leave the house as often as possible, he could just, he could just breathe, you know, and he could be away from whatever was going on with me. And, and so I kind of just without intention, unknowingly, but intuitively started writing from both sides of the bed. So I would write about my experience from the perspective of patient and the perspective of nurse. So it was, it was kind of going back to, okay, how would I help a friend? So as I'm describ, for example, getting my port, a cath placed, I literally walked through what a port, a cath is, how it works, what it's going to do, why I decided to get one. Also from the perspective of the patient, what it felt like to get it. And oh, by the way, get pain medicine before you get a portico because it hurts, you know, and these types of things. So I was speaking kind of from both sides of the, the patient experience. And what I found as a nurse is that what people fear the most is the unknown. Not knowing what to expect is what makes the patient experience that much harder, that much more anxiety provoking is just like I have no idea what to expect.

A (35:34)

Yeah.

B (35:35)

And so that's kind of how the blog really evolved. And it was talking with my daughter and why do we need to talk to children? Why do we need to include children? How I did it, how I went about it. And so people started forwarding it saying, you've got to read it. And the feedback was really interesting. People who were patients were saying, you're giving me words for an experience for which I don't have the words. And the flip side of the coin was, oh, now caregivers, friends who say, now I understand what my loved one is going through, I have a better understanding of it.

A (36:17)

You know, that is so important because, you know, as your friends go through or family are going through treatment, they might say, I have another chemo session on Tuesday, or have. But unless you've gone through it before or you have a close loved one, you don't really know what that actually practically means or what those effects, you know, the side effects are or the physical treatment that you're getting. As you mentioned, like having a port installed, all those things sort of like the more you know, the more a part of the recovery process your friends and family feel.

B (36:50)

Absolutely. And the person who's the patient feels as well.

A (36:56)

So one of your friends, you mentioned you had your friend who's the great cook who would bring your food and then your dog lover friend who would walk your dog, but you had a friend you have A friend who was a photographer who offered to document your treatments for you. Tell us about that. And your friend Elizabeth.

B (37:14)

Yeah. So Elizabeth came over one day, and we were sitting there, and I just had my double mastectomy reconstruction, and she's looking at my chest, and she's like, so what do they look like? And I just found. After I had it done, I was like, well, do you want to see? You know? And so she's like, yeah. So I lift my shirt up. She's like, oh, my God, they're beautiful. And I was kind of like, I don't know about that, but okay. That's kind of weird, but okay. She's like, no, no, they are. So then she said, how about if I photograph you throughout this experience? She said. She said, you know, you don't need to ever even look at the photos, but if you want a recorded history of this, you'll. You'll have it. And she said. She goes, and I'm a photographer, and I don't know what the heck else to do for you because.

A (38:01)

Right.

B (38:01)

I'm not going to take care of your kids, I'm not going to walk your dog, and I want to be with you. So how about it? And so I was like, okay. You know, I mean. Okay. So she did. She photographed me throughout the experience. And it was really interesting because when she would send me the images from our time together, I would look at my double mastectomy in a very different way. You see, when I looked in the mirror, I saw somebody who was sick, somebody who felt awful, somebody who was, like, cut up. When I looked in the mirror, that's. That was the reflection I saw. And then when I looked at Elizabeth's photos, I was like, oh, they are kind of pretty. Oh, that's interesting. Oh, look at my bald head.

A (38:49)

Oh.

B (38:49)

Turns out my head's kind of, like, a nice shape. Okay. You know, I started to see myself differently through her images, and it was very powerful. And I remember one time. One time I'm looking at. I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is really pretty. And I called her, and I was like, did you Photoshop this? You know, this can't be it. She's. Yeah. She said, honey, I did not Photoshop it. No, that's what you look like. So it was this beautiful experience that I just. Boy, it gave me a very different perspective. And then what was really interesting was people were saying, well, you need to write a book as a result of the blog. And, yes. I was like, no, I'm not Writing a book? I don't know. No, I'm not writing a book. Absolutely not. And then one time, my husband wasn't able to go to chemo with me. And Elizabeth said, oh, I'll come. You know, I'll take you to chemo. I'm not doing anything today. So she came with me, and she always carries her camera around. And she started shooting. She started shooting, and I'm sitting in the chair and Kimo's going in, and we're chatting, and she's just taking photographs. It was so interesting because when those photographs came back, I was kind of like, oh, now I gotta write the book. Because. Because I realized that Elizabeth documented this experience in such a way that I had never seen before, that had never been done before. So she gave imagery to the experience, and I gave the words to the experience. And the coming together of both of those is what I wish that I had had when I was going through it. And that's when that light bulb moment came on. It was a little bit like, oh, gosh, here we go. And there's an opportunity to create the book that I wish that I had had going through it. And that is a book that was written by someone who is a health care professional and a patient, someone who was credible and hopeful, somebody who would speak truthfully and also supportively. And so that's how the book came to be.

A (41:06)

And that's also how you organize the book. Right. You would talk about sort of what. What actually was happening from a medical perspective. You know, whether it's this is what your port. Your port going in, or this is what happens with chemotherapy. And then you also provided the sort of the personal perspective of what it feels like being a patient, having. Having to go through that medical treatment.

B (41:28)

Exactly. So I. I divided each chapter into two sections. The first is the. The part that's my personal experience. So memoir. Ish. And within that, I have little boxes that. That I called lifelines that are like, oh, here's. Here's what I wish I had known or this happened. Yeah, try this. You know, it's kind of like the. The girlfriend conversation. And then the second half of each chapter is what I called practical matters. And those are the lists of things to. Things to know, the questions to ask the doctor. Here's what to do if you have needle phobia. Here's what to pack to, you know, to go to a chemo infusion room. Here's what to pack to take to the hospital. These are, like, the practical things that you need to Know, before you go. And there was one of the publishers said, you know, we don't really need any of that. We just want your memoir. And I was like, no, the practical, if anything, that's like the most important thing, because nobody cares about Holly Jacobs story before they're. The night before they're packing for surgery. They just want to know, what do I take to surgery, what do I take to the hospital? How do I. I'm freaking out about this blood draw. How do I tend to my needle phobia? That's like. When you're in it, you just need to know what to do. And so that's. That's why I outlined the chapters in the way that I did, which makes.

A (42:58)

Such sense, because as you said, you were. You were you when you had that moment of looking at the pictures. We have to make this book. It was for you to create a book that would have been that you believe so strongly will be helpful to others because it's what you wish that you had had when you had first gotten your diagnosis. So you had, as you mentioned, sort of extreme nausea. You did have some serious side effects from your cancer treatment. And during it, you kind of devised your own way of coping with it, which, you know, was to sort of look for silver linings. Will you talk a little bit about that?

B (43:33)

Absolutely, Absolutely. So when I talk about silver linings, it is not in a Pollyanna, oh, if you just look for a silver lining, everything will be fine. Because it wasn't the case at all. It turns out that silver linings, they don't get. They don't get rid of, like, nausea, vomiting, constipation, like, none of that. However, they just provide a buoy to help give me a different perspective. That's the. That's the beauty of silver linings for me is to give me the balance and the hope and the perspective to get me through some of the most difficult moments. I mean, I remember lying on the sofa. Like, it was like I had couch glue on. I couldn't stand up, I was so sick. And I look outside and there's a hummingbird out my windows, like, oh, that's nice. There's a silver lining. It's like a little silver lining. And for me, I found that silver linings, they come in small packages, like the perfect cup of ginger tea, you know, that would ease my nausea just. Just a little, tiny little bit. Just a little bit to the. To the bigger ones. I mean, I remember one time I was so sick, I was laying on my bathroom floor unable to get the six feet from my floor to my bed. And as I was laying there, I remember thinking, all right, Ms. Silver Lining, where's your silver lining now? Because you're so sick you can't get from this floor to your be. And I no sooner had that thought than my nearly 90 pound black lab walks through the door and he curls up into this ball next to me. And I'm laying there, I'm like, oh, there's a little silver lining. And then a couple minutes later, my husband came in. I didn't call him, he just walked in and instead of picking me up and carrying me in my bed, he just sat on the floor, put my bald head in his lap and he rubbed it. And like, that was my silver lining in that moment. It's. It's the little. It's the little things. And for me, that's what I needed in that moment. You know, I remember one time I was feeling like a little bit like kind of just good enough to go out on a drive by myself. And I just needed to get out of the house and I just needed to go for a drive. And I'm driving and I'm like, kind of getting tired, I'm getting more nauseous and I'm like, all right, it's time to go home. I had so much chemo, brain fog, I couldn't remember how to get home. And I pull off to the side of the road and I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, Jesus, Mary and Joseph, I don't know how to get home. And then like, I heard a little voice say, your address is this. Put it in your gps. And so I started laughing. I'm like, well, there's a silver lining. I remember my address. I don't know how to get there, but I had GPS in my car, you know, and it was like, so for me, that's what a silver lining is. It's the little things that would just help me move from moment to moment.

A (46:46)

And you've been doing a lot of public speaking and resilience coaching, and this is one of the messages I think that you share with your audience, because this is a. Looking for silver linings is not something that just should be applied or could be applied to managing cancer. Right? It's anything you're going through, whether it's divorce or a loss, having that be part of your practice can really help move you forward.

B (47:14)

Absolutely, absolutely. And the cultivation of resilience is a practice. You know, some people believe that resilience is either something you have or you don't. That's not true. And other people believe that resilience is like, you know, something that. That they, you know, resilient people, they don't have stress or problems or issues. No, that's not true. Resilience is. Is. Is a daily practice. It's something that you can. It's a dynamic skill that you can cultivate and build. And so building resilience, for me is one aspect of that, is looking for silver linings. It's just. It's like, okay, you know what? This is a terrible day. And, yeah, something. You know, there's something good in today. And so I'll remind myself, look outside. What do I see? Oh, there's a beautiful tree. You know, there's a beautiful tree that has a gorgeous color on it. You know, you'll start to be able to see things a little bit differently. Doesn't mean that your day still isn't like yucca. It just adds a little bit to it. And that's one way to really actively cultivate resilience.

A (48:29)

That is really interesting. I never connected. I was sort of thinking it more of kind of a, you know, as part of a gratitude practice. But having it be part of kind of resilience building is almost a more important way to look at it, right? Because you're developing a skill to help you get through life. And we're all going to be having those moments, those moments of loss, those moments of the medical diagnosis that just absolutely knocks you off your feet. Divorce. I mean, any. Any setback. There always are setbacks.

B (49:01)

And that's what I always say, Leslie. I always say, life is lifey. It's one of my favorite phrases. Life is lifey. It's not even remotely grammatically correct, but emotionally, it's spot on. And so when life is lifey, that's when resilience comes in. And all the daily practices, all the things that you do are ways to be able to adapt, recover and transform from adversity. And to me, that's the definition of resilience. You know, people, our culture describes resilience as like, bouncing back. I've never understood that. We're not going backwards. We're not bouncing. It's, to me, the ability to adapt, recover and transform from adversity. So having daily practices, cultivating the skills to be able to trust, know and believe that whatever comes your way and stuff's coming, because that's life being lifey, you're going to be able to handle it. Life being lifey.

A (50:02)

Holly, we've got to get some bumper stickers and say that or some T shirts. I love that. Life is lifey.

B (50:08)

Life is lifey. Yeah. And, and, and just trusting, knowing and believing that resilience is always available. It's one of the things in life that never changes, and that is the ability to choose how we respond, to be able to choose how we respond. And I'm not talking about Napoleona. Well, if I'm just positive, if I just live in gratitude. No, I'm not talking about that. Because when the, when the shit hits a fan, when things are really bad, when I'm laying on the bathroom floor, you know, and I can't even move. That's awful. You know, and things are scary and things are sad, you know, it's not about like, well, just be grateful, you know, that's Pollyanna. That's a platitude to me. It's like, all right, what's one little thing? What's one thing right now that I can do? And that, that's, that's what works for me. I know.

A (51:01)

And is that how you. So when you're. I might need to engage you, Holly, as my resilience coach. But when, when you're, when you're meeting with clients, seriously, is that, is there a formula or a framework that you give them to sort of start working on building their resilience? Maybe one of them is looking for silver linings. But are there other kind of recommendations that you make to people to help them, you know, kind of reframe their perspective as they're going through some, some real adversity?

B (51:29)

Absolutely. So, so one of my absolute favorite, favorite tools is a teeny tiny three letter word called Yet. It's my favorite yet. Y, E T. So, for example, I am no good at technology. I can't do it. It's just not my thing. Right. You might hear that, Holly.

A (51:52)

I mean, I mean, besides you and I using the house building analogy, we also share that. We share the no tech. No tech in common. Yeah.

B (52:00)

Well, let's try it a little bit differently, Leslie. I'm really. Tech is really challenging for me. I don't know how to do it yet.

A (52:09)

Yes, I see.

B (52:12)

I don't know how to bake bread yet. I. A lot of times people will have a feeling, a part of them that is not good enough. Imposter syndrome, for example, the compare and despair cycle. Oh, that's a doozy. That's a real doozy. You know, that's like being with a fire breathing dragon, blowing images of Self doubt right in your face, all while comparing yourself to a, you know, a face tuned image on Instagram. Right. This is not, it's just not true comparison. As Theodore Roosevelt said, comparison is a thief of joy. And so helping people move out of compare and despair. If they're not good at something, they're not good at something yet. I work with, I work with a lot of healthcare professionals, especially nursing, nursing professionals who are just beginning their practice and they feel overwhelmed, they feel scared. So I'm not good at starting IVs dot, dot, dot yet.

A (53:24)

Right.

B (53:24)

I'm not good at driving a truck yet. Do you see how it can, it can, it shifts your perspective.

A (53:34)

Yes, totally.

B (53:35)

Totally shifts your perspective. You know, when I first started doing public speaking, it was, oh, I'm, I'm not a public speaker. I'm not. No, I'm not a public speaker yet. You pivot, you change, you, you just, you reframe, you look at things a little bit differently. And that little shift makes all the difference in the world.

A (54:00)

Really does. That's really fascinating. You know, I've, I'm accused by my children of getting a lot of information from Instagram, Rails, which is, it's not. That's how I found you actually is through, is through Instagram. So I shouldn't knock it, but it is. You know, there's a lot of things that I get sent for whatever reason in my algorithm about sort of reframing how you think about things. So instead of saying like that always happens to me or I'm always having bad luck or I never just reframing how you're actually speaking to yourself and the tool of yet within that context of sort of reframing it and putting those statements to yourself or saying them in a new way with yet, you know, kind of as part of that is a really sort of positive way to. Because it's almost sort of like the growth mindset versus the fixed mindset.

B (54:52)

Absolutely. Carol Dweck. For sure. For sure. Yes. It's pivoting. It's pivoting there. And another, another one is that I love is I've been traveling a lot and it's kind of grueling and I was lamenting about like, oh, I've got another trip coming up. And yes. And so I change, have to, oh, I have to travel this week to, oh, I get to, I get to travel. And that's the same concept of, of moving that and really feeling into that, truly feeling into it. Not have it be a platitude, not have it be. Well, I'm just going to change the words that I'm using.

A (55:33)

Like. Right.

B (55:33)

Really believe it. You know, I'm not good at tech yet. I'm not good at public speaking yet. Have to go on this trip. I get to go on this trip. Like, wow, okay, that's.

A (55:48)

I just said that this morning. I have to fly to Hartford to drive to go to a football game. And it, by the way, I'm so to your point, it's how great that I get to go watch my 13 year old play football. So you really just have to reframe that and how you're thinking about it and what words you're using.

B (56:05)

You don't have to reframe it. You get to reframe it.

A (56:08)

You get to reframe it. Holly, this is so great.

B (56:12)

It's really fun. And I use every tool that I engage with, every tool that I use with my clients because it just works and it makes difficult situations better. You know, it lifts, it lifts up experiences that feel heavy, you know, or when life is lifey, you know, it really, that's when these tools are incredibly useful and helpful. It just changes that when, you know, when you change the narrative, you change everything.

A (56:47)

Well, I mean, you're, you're leaving proof of, of just how, you know, important that reframe is. Right. Having the silver linings helped get you through that very, very adverse time. I think it's just so amazing that you actually took your experience and brought it to people who need that perspective and need that help when they're going through a cancer diagnosis and also for their loved ones because as you said, the ripple effect is so wide that it affects so many of us. And the silver lining, your book is certainly a great tool and you know, for others who are supporting their loved one through a diagnosis and a recovery.

B (57:31)

Absolutely. And there's actually a new app that I also wish that I had had access to when I was sick and that's called Cancer Buddy. It was developed by the Bone Marrow and Cancer foundation and it is great. It is an extraordinary app that connects people with the same cancers in the same age, connects caregivers with caregivers. It's, it's supervised by, by healthcare professionals. Actually. The, the founder who's the president of Bone Marrow Cancer Foundation, Christina Merrill. She was, you know. Christina. Oh my.

A (58:10)

Yeah, yeah.

B (58:11)

Because she developed it because she was. And she, she speaks publicly about this. She was, you know, doing some online dating and she's like, wait, why is there, why does this not exist for who have cancer. And so it is an incredible, I mean, talk about a silver lining to, you know, when you're up in the mid. When I, you know, when I was up in the middle of the night, you know, on my steroids before going for chemo and I had nobody to talk to and I was like, ra. I would have given anything to have had an app to connect me with other people who are going through similar experiences. So that's a. Talk about it. That's a silver lining that's come since, since my experience that I can't, can't recommend highly enough. Highly enough.

A (58:56)

What a great tool I did not know about and what. And I have, you know, unfortunately, I know we all do listening have very close friends, two of whom are going through treatment right now. So I'm going to reach out and let them know about cancer buddy.

B (59:12)

It's amazing.

A (59:14)

That is so great. Well, Holly, I loved every minute of chatting with you this morning.

B (59:20)

Oh, you too, Leslie. So fun.

A (59:22)

I can't thank you enough. And I just, your book is just such, as I said, such an incredible tool for people who are going through cancer themselves and for all their loved ones who are there supporting them. And I just, I mean, what your resilience practice. I'm just going to add yet to everything I'm, you know.

B (59:39)

Yeah, drop. Drop the yet.

A (59:41)

Yeah, drop the yet. We've got, we've got a lot of bumper stickers and T shirts, you know, that you and I could create too, Holly, besides our building the house analogy. But thank you so much for taking the time. It was so great to see you. I really appreciate it and I know all the listeners will really appreciate hearing from you about this too. So thank you so much.

B (60:00)

Absolutely. Thank you, Leslie.

A (60:03)

That brings us to the end of this episode of Duolog. A huge thank you to Holly Jacobs for joining and for sharing her inspiring story and her life altering advice. Also, a huge thank you too to our sponsor, Cozy Earth Run Don't Walk to treat yourself to some amazing products by Cozy Earth to start your new year off right. And don't forget to use the promo code duologue for 20% off at checkout. And if you get a post purchase survey, please don't forget to mention Duolog and that you heard about Cozy Earth from us. And last but not least, thank you all so much for listening and for your support of the podcast. I appreciate it so, so much. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate or review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We release a new episode every Wednesday day. So until next Wednesday, this is Leslie. And thanks for joining Duolog.