← Duologue with Leslie Heaney
Duologue with Leslie Heaney
Inside a Rare Matisse Exhibition with Eleanor Acquavella
00:42:48
When Acquavella Galleries first mounted a Matisse exhibition in 1973, the lines stretched down the block. Now, more than fifty years later, the gallery has done it again — and the wait was worth it. Leslie sits down with Eleanor Acquavella, Director...
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- [00:03]
A
Hey, everybody, this is Leslie, and you're listening to Duologue. I recently had the great pleasure of sitting down with my dear friend and a director and co owner of Aquavella Galleries, Eleanor Aquavella, to talk about Aquavella's extraordinary Matisse show, the Pursuit of Happiness, which is happening right now at Aquavella Galleries in New York City. Not only has it been a half a century since Aquavella has had a Matisse show, but the show is also so special because many of the pieces are from private collections, so you would not be able to see these works otherwise. The show opened, as I mentioned last week, to great critical acclaim. There are lines around the block, and the show is free and open to the public until May 22. In this episode, Eleanor and I talk about this amazing show. What's in it, how Aquavella put it together, why it's such an impressive collection of pieces. Eleanor also speaks to why Matisse is such an important figure in the history of art. We talk about his competition with Picasso. We talk about just the fauvas in general and how the world also is having a Matisse moment right now. With several exhibits happening at museums worldwide, Aquavella's show is the only one that is taking place in New York. So for lovers of art, this is a conversation with an expert art dealer and collector, not to mention a brilliant and hilarious guest. It's an episode that you do not
- [01:25]
B
want to miss,
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A
Eleanor. I mean, besides the fact that we're going to be talking about such an exciting show that Aquavella has and all about Matisse, who not only has great interest for me, but I know all of my listeners and people worldwide. But I'm just so happy I get to see you and catch up. We haven't seen each other in a couple of months.
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B
I know. It's a pleasure.
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A
All right, so let's jump right in and talk about this exhibition. There's been some great sort of press around the excitement of it. You know, New York magazine called it brilliant last week. And then we've got the New York Times had a great article about it, kind of talking about how it was put together and the history of, you know, some of the pieces that are in it. So tell me this is the first time Aquavella has had an exhibition of Matisse since 1973. Tell us about it. Tell us about what's in the exhibition. It's titled the Pursuit of Harmony. It's opened yesterday, right? April 9th.
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B
Yep. Opened yesterday.
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A
Tell us about it.
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B
I will.
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A
What's the why? Let's get to the why.
- [02:35]
B
Okay. Thank you so much first for having me, and it's a pleasure to talk about this exhibition, which is very personal for my family and for the gallery. The first exhibition we had of Matisse, my father put together in 1973 in the same location where we've been since the early 60s. That show was incredibly popular. We had lines down the block, and my father couldn't believe how popular it was and how well attended it was by not only art lovers, but New Yorkers, people from out of town, and particularly artists. It's an artist that's very near and dear to us. We have lived. We've had the pleasure of living with Matisses for many years and selling many Matisses over the years. And we always knew we wanted to put together another lone exhibition of Matisse. So nothing's for sale. It's purely borrowed from institutions, private collectors, and other lenders. It's a very complicated show to put on because the values are very high, and getting people to part with their very precious paintings can take some convincing. But since it's an artist that we have dealt in in many years, my father knew a lot of the collectors personally and could sort of make a case for why this was a great moment to lend and to have the works on view to the public in New York. So the great thing is there's a lot of works in here that people have maybe never seen in person, only in. In books or photographs, and a lot of works that haven't been viewed in over 30 years.
- [04:15]
A
Yeah, that's what I was reading. That part of this. One of the unique. Incredibly unique factors. Right. Is that a lot of these works are on loan from private collections, so people wouldn't be able to see them otherwise. You were able to procure them Right, through these relationships that your families had with.
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B
Exactly.
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A
Without knowing this, I'm going to throw this out there. You. You may have even dealt with helping some of those collectors purchase some of those pieces that are in the collection.
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B
Well, exactly. That's why we know where they are, because we sold them.
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A
Okay.
- [04:45]
B
And so. And it's an artist that. Sorry, not to interrupt, but it's an artist that, you know, we. I say we with air quotes because, you know, I have not quite been alive for as long as some of these have been traded to the. To said collectors. But it's an. You know, it's an artist that we have handled for so long, and we've sold a lot of the works, and we really know the best work. Certainly my father knows top quality Matisse, where a lot of them are. He's placed a lot of them in institutions. He's placed a lot of them with private collectors, which just made having this show really something only our gallery could. Could put together, certainly amongst other non institutional locations.
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A
Yeah. Well, you know, you talked about the last time was 1973. And little fun fact we might mention that you were born in September of 1973. So Bill Aquavella clearly had a lot going on.
- [05:42]
B
That's right. It was a big year for Bill in 1973.
- [05:46]
A
But tell us about that. What is the sequence of that? So I had read that your father, and I'm sure you and your brothers were all sort of on the same page of wanting to put this together, recognizing that it's not easy to do. Right. Because the values of these pieces and because how sort of few there are that are important pieces, Right, that you'd want to have in an exhibition or a show like this. Did you start with reaching out to the private collectors and then reached out to the museums? Does that happen simultaneously? What does that mean? It kind of happened sideways.
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B
It kind of happens simultaneously. The museums have a much longer lead time on how much notice they need to lend a painting. It's more complicated for museums. There's more hurdles to overcome when you request paintings from them. So they need more than a year to kind of get the loan processed and come back with an answer. The private collectors, depending on the relationship and where the painting is located, maybe don't need quite as much time. But. But to say that we started this about two years ago, but it's a show we've been talking about doing for, I mean, probably 10 years, just. Just bringing this really exceptional group of works back together. Then curatorially, we wanted to. To put a interesting intellectual seam together. And we have a wonderful person that works at the gallery. His name is Emily Crowley and she was the curator for this show. And so she wanted to show the relationship between sculpture and painting and drawing, which was very important to Matisse's practice. So the easy way to say it is that when he would get in a rut, let's say it's hard to imagine Matisse in a rut, by the way, if you know the work. But it does happen, he would switch medium and go, let's say, from sculpture to painting or painting to sculpture, so that he could work through the form a bit and then go back to, let's say, painting after he had made a Couple of sculptures and be able to translate that into a two dimensional painting that sort of helped him with the form and the figure. In a lot of cases, there are still lifes and figures in this exhibition, but there are specific pairings that you will see throughout it when hopefully most people come to see it, that are able to. That show the form of a sculpture, a curve of a woman next to the curve of a geranium in a pot, for example. And those two particular pieces were made within one year of each other. The sculpture is in 1909 and the painting in 1910. And you can clearly see how working on these sculptures sort of opened up a new way of form and a new way of creating still life or a flower or whatever the subject is in the case that he was pairing it with the sculpture. And it's amazing to see that throughout the whole show. And there are sculptures and paintings in every room that are clearly influenced by each other or as a result of the other.
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A
So is that when you came up with the title of the show, the Pursuit of Harmony? Is that the idea, just finding these sort of. Or you were talking about the intellectual piece of it, like finding these common threads among and between, like the painting and the sculpture and the drawing of sort of how he was either influenced by one or the other, or he wanted to sort of continue that theme or that thread through his work.
- [09:32]
B
Right. And needed to sort of break free of whatever he was stuck on when he was trying to make the current painting of that moment. And, you know, the other practical part of this is that our gallery is in a townhouse on 79th street, and we have four public exhibition rooms. So you can only fit so many works and you want to have some cohesion to how they're installed and how they look together. And so you have to really think about that when you're requesting works from a size standpoint and how many works you can fit. We have over 50 works in the show, which is also really unique.
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A
I was reading some auctioneer or an auction house, I think it might have been Christie's, was talking about how unique this show is because of the fact that it's rare to have more than one or two of his pieces in it. So. So the idea that you were able to put together 50 and with such different types of medium. Right. Sculpture, drawing, and painting. Also, apparently there was some emphasis on the expiration of the female nude, which was, I think, something that he really focused on in the 20s and 30s.
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B
Correct.
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A
Okay. And is that what you were talking about sort of the curve of the woman and having that flow into.
- [10:45]
B
Exactly. You see a clear tie in. In the timing of nude women sculptures that he made, and also nude women paintings. One of his favorite subjects was the odalisque, which he was very influenced by his travels to Morocco and Algeria. And he loved all the. All the fabrics and the patterns and the luscious, rich textiles, and that influenced his work a lot. I mean, all that. You know, Matisse is always thought. Not always, but a lot of times is thought as a colorist. And that was the other thing about this show is we wanted to show how amazing he is with composition and form. And bringing the sculpture in really shows the relationship between the form, because the sculpture doesn't have color. It's bronze. It's just the patina is brown. And the paintings are very colorful, which maybe on the surface, some people might think, oh, they're sort of simple, because they're just amazing colors. And you don't spend time really getting to know the forms. But we find that having the sculptures paired with it shows you very much how impressive and innovative his forms and the structure of the actual paintings are. But Matisse had, like, all these costumes, all these textiles, all these fabrics in his studio, in his apartments, in his studios. And he would create these scenes with his daughter and also another model. And he had several different models and create these amazing scenes that were based on things that he had seen during his travels to other parts of the world, but brought back and sort of brought to life in his apartment and in his studio. We have one very beautiful double portrait in his apartment in Nice, which he had with the sea in the background and the doors are open. One person is sitting in harem pants holding something, and then another person is reclining on an ottoman and another beautifully elaborate textile. And then there's. Some of the paintings have a curtain in the background or another painting in the background, and plants or their plants. I mean, you just. There's all these sort of richly drawn, beautifully painted, the most amazing color combinations you have ever seen. And that was one of his many strengths, and that's what this show tries to reinforce.
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A
That's so interesting that he would. It's almost like, you know, when you listen, this hasn't happened to me since landscape seascape at St. Georgia is my. Like these scenes, you know, that I think I got a C plus or B minus in that class. But, you know, when you're. That I didn't realize he would actually set up the. You know, it wasn't Just that he was having some, you know, he was painting from memory, or he happened to be sitting in that room that he would sort of write in influences and create a scene like you would. A still life, maybe. And then on top of that. So for listeners that maybe are not as familiar about Matisse. I've heard of Matisse. Can, you know, can, you know, think about some of his more famous paintings, whether it's the Dance or the Red Room or some of these ones that people may just know from books or from visiting museums? Tell us a little bit about him as an artist. Kind of what influenced him during this time, these paintings. You know, most of his paintings were late 19th, early 20th century or his work, I should say, not just his paintings. And he was part of the Fauvist movement.
- [14:13]
B
He was one of the founders. He and Deran started the Fauvist movement. And Fauve is a term that comes from a critic who saw the show. So the Fauve paintings are known for their extremely bold, bright, incredible colors that are, some might say, not realistic, but absolutely with artistic liberty. And the result is these absolutely fabulous, breathtaking paintings that he was doing around 1904, 5, 6. And we have a couple examples in the show, which is exciting as well. But those. That movement there was. There was an exhibition, and a critic went to see it, and he. And he referred to the artists as Beau because. Which in French is wild Beast, because they were. They were so. They seem so out of place and so reckless and so such a departure from what people had been doing, you know, so Matisse was very influential from that point of view, too. And there's other Fauvists, Dera Vla Minck and others that were a very big part of that movement. But that was a very specific focus, time period. And then Matisse went on to do his odalisques, which carried sort of the amazing use of color forward. He did a very, you know, a lot of painting in his apartment in Nice, which I mentioned earlier, portraits of women and very elaborate, very beautiful costumes and hats and all kinds of things, because he loved the textures and all the different layers of coloring and patterning and how they all came together on the canvas and created just these richly painted, incredible feast for the eyes, really.
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A
You mentioned Picasso and you mentioned some of the other artists during this time that were. That were Fauvis Valvis.
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B
You did a good job.
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A
It's like part of my. Like, it's like some sort of learning. Just. I can't.
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B
You know, it's a motto I really
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A
am having a hard time with it. I need to figure that out. But anyway, so. So they're all, you know, it's different, right? Because you're not sort of talking on the phone. You're not. Are they all, you know, you're not texting each other, you're not FaceTiming. But yet their work is all influencing each other and Picasso's painting at the same time. And he and Matisse are a bit competitive at this time, right? And I.
- [16:38]
B
Correct. And Matisse was older, so Matisse was like, I don't know, 13 years older or something like that. So Picasso sort of looked up to him and knew of him because, you know, they were all in Paris and Paris was small like cities can be. And certainly at that time, I mean, all the artists, they knew where they wanted to be. They knew they wanted to be near the other artists. So there were these pockets of great artistic studios and people that were clustered and they'd all go to the same bar and drink and talk, and there were poets and there were photographers and just this amazing conglomerate of artistic people that all just thrived off each other and sponged off each other to develop all these different things. You know, after Fauvism, then there was Surrealism. I mean, Matisse was not a surrealist, but all these influences that were just swirling around in this very sort of provocative, exciting time in art history. And there's no question that they all fed off each other and wanted to be together. And they would look at each other's work and they were competitive. I mean, Matisse and Picasso were very competitive. Picasso did. Matisse died in 1954, and that's when Picasso started his Odalisque series. Because obviously Matisse had painted the odalisque for decades, and it was one of his really, you know, seminal subjects. And so Picasso famously said, when Matisse died, he left me his odalisques as a legacy. So then he did this whole series in the 50s of these odalisques that look very different. But, you know, it feels like Picasso was afraid to take on the odalisque until Matisse, Right. Because he. Because just nobody could. Could do. Do what Matisse had done with that subject. In fact, Picasso's series of odalisques is these sort of larger format, quite impressive canvases also. But, you know, there was a real sort of love, hate, competitiveness between those two artists that I think, you know, resulted in some of the. The great work of the 20th century.
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A
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B
Right?
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A
Everybody's exactly off of each other. They're in, they're influencing each other. And, and that kind of the impact of that probably can't be overstated. Not that I'm an art historian, I just play one on tv, but, but I, but I were there all the same time. And then Matisse, you know, you sort of, I read that, you know, sort of in the beginning of his work. And I also found it was fascinating, by the way, as a sidebar for listeners that he was, he was studying to be a lawyer. He was, already had kind of passed the equivalent of the bar exam. Got sick with something.
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B
Yeah, he was sick and his mother brought him some paints and he started painting and just felt like he came alive for the first time.
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A
Gosh, I wish that could happen with our kids.
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B
I mean,
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A
and then sort of, you Know, he pursued that with great passion and then was influenced by other artists along the way. But he started. His paintings were fairly muted still lifes. Right. And then the color hit. And I think the color hit in the early, early 20th century.
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B
Right.
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A
Was that because of his connection with some of these other artists that you mentioned?
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B
Yes, absolutely. I mean, Covism was the first time that they applied the color in such an unrealistic way. That was kind of what was amazing about it. I mean, Van Gogh had made these incredibly vividly colored, very unrealistic in their own way. Incredible paintings. But, but Fauvism really took it to the next level. But, you know, you can draw these amazing comparisons. I mean, you can really see how art history comes from what came before it. Right. So all the great artists would not exist without something that came before them.
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A
Was this period that we're talking about where everybody's kind of together in Paris smoking, which sounds delightful. Maybe they're having wine. You know what they're, they're chit chatting.
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B
Definitely. Probably a little absinthe too. I don't know.
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A
Yeah, that could. I mean, I'm really talk about getting in a time machine. That sounds like party I'd want to be at. But, but is there. This is the 20s, like, is this after World War I? What time? Or is it before World War I?
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B
Well, so the, the fove period was 19o4 5, 6. Really, 1905 6. It was very quick. And then it, it went on from there. I mean, I mean this was all through the 20s, 30s, 40s, you know, this very innovative time in Paris when they're all together and you know, I mean, Picasso and Brock started Cubism. There was so much, you know, de Chirico and Dolly started surreal. You know, Surrealism was, was born, as they say. I mean it was, it was an incredible time for, for innovation and it was happening so much and so fast.
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A
Were there like alliances? Like. I think you just mentioned Picasso and, and Dolly. Did you say those two were together?
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B
No. Picasso and Brock.
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A
And Brock, sorry.
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B
They founded Cubism.
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A
So, so they, is it, so is it just. They kind of gravitated towards each other's work and they. Was it between these groups sort of competitive in terms of, you know, critics, critics, reactions to their work, the public's reactions to their work?
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B
Absolutely. Okay. I mean the, you know, you can imagine that the public was very rejecting of most of this. I mean, there were a few patrons that would sort of embrace the new. Some cutting edge patrons that would embrace the new. Of Whatever Picasso or Matisse or whoever was doing. But. But in general, the public was horrified by it.
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A
You know, you talked about patrons, and I thought it was really interesting when I was, you know, getting up to speed for this conversation, that I just thought, sort of thinking that what role does the patron play in the development of the artist's work? Like, there was the Red Room, for example, which is one of Matisse's famous works.
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B
I mean, one of his works, Russia.
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A
But yeah, that was commissioned by a Russian collector. So is that just. They would be told, I mean, I think about the Medicis, right, in Florence during the Renaissance, and their influence. Was there sort of patrons that stood out or did these. These artists. Were they so sort of known and. And moving around so much in this. In this space that you could have a page, you could have multiple patrons? I guess I'm just sort of trying to probe into what. How much of an influence patrons have on or had on these artists work.
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B
Well, I mean, the very basic way they influence them is that they provided income and a livelihood for them. So that part was very important. But also, artists, you know, need to feel like their work. I mean, this is a generalization, but it's nice for an artist to think people like the work and want to buy it. So if there's an exhibition and the work sells, that's a very rewarding thing for an artist. And of course, if you have patrons that follow your work and admire it and buy it and support it and give it to museums and have it in their homes and other people see it, it's like a stamp of approval and a seal of approval and exposure for the artist, which is also very important. You know, the big thing then was Americans didn't get to see that much European art because there wasn't this sort of global access that we have now that we, you know, a lot of people just like young people, take for granted because they just can't fathom life without it. But there was a European patrons supporting European artists, of course, but they really needed American patrons also to come and see the work and buy it and bring it to America so that word could sort of spread and get out and other artists could see it. I mean, that's sort of how, you know, the art world, the history of art develops by. By other people seeing other work in different parts of the country, different parts of the world, et cetera.
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A
So let's talk about that, because I had read and actually, I think it was part of. It was a. Was written in the catalog the aquavella catalog from 1973. Clement Greenberg, who I think was one
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B
of the most famous art critics.
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A
Okay. And he was talking about how Matisse's work influenced post war American painters. And the influence that he was sort of honing in on was how the compositions extended beyond the canvas edges, which I guess was an important influence on Abstract Expressionists, which could be in America and I guess globally. But that, that his work really did have an influence on American post war American painters.
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B
Absolutely. And actually Matisse's son Pierre was a dealer in a, in New York. And so he was one of the first people to, to show not only Matisse, but Giacometti Miro, a whole host of, of artists, and he brought them to New York. So they got exposure that they hadn't already had. So that, that's sort of a fun fact. Also. There was a good exchange happening already. I mean, moma had a show of Matisse. I think the first show was like in the 30s.
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A
And was. He was that sort of like, this is this new artist in from France. That's.
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B
Yeah, I mean, I mean, he was unknown. You know, there, there weren't, there wasn't the Internet. There wasn't even really as many books or photographs. So it was. And color photography wasn't such a thing so widely used then either. So people really hadn't seen it. So, you know, that's, that's what artists needed to sort of get their exposure. And of course, MoMA, with Alfred Barr at the helm, who was one of the most famous and important curators of art history, I would argue, you know, he was one, he was a great champion of European modern artists, which people didn't know about and hadn't. Hadn't seen before.
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A
And. So when did the modern art movement take off in the U.S. would that be after World War II?
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B
I mean, it had actually started before World War II. But then of course, that war put a stop to a lot of things. You know, work, traveling from Europe, it was a challenge during that time, obviously. And then it kind of picked right back up. I mean, you know, Americans have always loved Europe and, and all things European. Right. For the most part. So they, a lot of people traveled there, they would go to the museums. I mean, Europe's a lot older than we are, as you know, and they have had museums a lot longer than we have and amazing collections. And so that was always sort of an influence for people going over to see, and they loved going to see what was happening there. And fashion was ahead over there. I mean, Everything. It was like.
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A
Yeah, well, by the way, that. Like the 18th century. I mean, Jefferson exactly. Is going over to Paris to see what was happening.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So we talked a bit about, you know, sort of, you know, his influence and, you know, his later work. So I think the progression. And maybe he jumped around was. Was oil painting, sculpture, and then these cutouts.
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B
Yes.
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A
Can you explain what the cutouts are? And. And I think you have some in this show.
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B
We don't, actually, so. So will you explain what the cutouts are? Yeah, well, one. One thing to say why we don't have cutouts in the show, again, because we only have a certain amount of space. But the Pompidou in Paris has organized also this spring, an amazing late Matisse show. So that show, I think, starts in the early 40s and goes through the end of his life in 54. And so there's paintings and then a lot of cutouts on view now in Paris. Should anyone be going? It's really worth seeing. And there's also a Matisse show in Chicago, and there's one in San Francisco. I mean, there's a real Matisse moment happening, which is amazing because.
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A
Because there's. There's 60. I mean, the. Yeah, Baltimore's doing one.
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B
I know. And, you know, what's amazing is, like, you know, I'm sure these museums started planning their shows four or five years ago. We started planning ours two years ago. We've been talking about it for 10, maybe more. And so what's amazing is that they're all kind of coming out at the same time. I mean, it's just. There's a real Matisse moment happening, which is really exciting. So it's just a great opportunity for people to see a lot. Amazing work. And it's nice that each one has its own sort of curatorial twist or time period that it's focusing on. But anyway, back to the cutouts. Matisse became unwell later in his life, and he was immobile, so he was sort of bedridden, which made it very hard to paint. And so he started making works of art with paper cutouts. And it started really, just for practical reasons that he could not stand up at the easel for any length of time, and he was in a wheelchair. And so he could make these cutouts and then have them arranged on the wall so he could see how the composition was coming together. And they're just a really innovative, incredible body of work that is being highlighted in that show at the Pompidou.
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A
So tell me. It is so fascinating to me that there's this moment, like, obviously there's something in the zeitgeist that's like Matisse, whether it's the sense of color or harmony or what sort of among his work that's attracted all of these different museums and your gallery to having a show. But I'm also curious within that, what is the market for it? I mean, I know these are all. Your show is just an exhibition, right?
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B
It's not just loans. Yeah.
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A
Yes. So it, you know, I. I was reading that there was a. From John Rockefeller's collection, and I forget which piece of which.
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B
It's an odalisque like we were talking about. It's a reclining odalisque. Very beautiful.
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A
That painting sold. It was the. The largest amount or the.
- [33:17]
B
Yeah. The highest price for a Matisse.
- [33:19]
A
The highest price. It was.
- [33:21]
B
I'm here for you, sister.
- [33:23]
A
Hashtag. This is 52. It was the highest price for Matisse ever.
- [33:29]
B
Yeah. That sold for almost $81 million.
- [33:31]
A
Okay. And that. Tell us about that piece. And is that kind of reflective in your view of. And actually, you know, again, knowing nothing, I'm not an art. An art historian or professional, but because of all these exhibitions and all these shows and these different museums and at your gallery would seem to me that. Wouldn't that actually create a stronger. Even a stronger market for Matisse?
- [33:57]
B
Absolutely. I mean, I mean, the. The quote, unquote problem with Matisse's market is that there isn't. There just isn't a lot of material that comes up for sale. The most recent group that came up was a group of sculptures that Leonard Lauderd owned, and they all sold at Sotheby's a couple of years ago. I mean, a year ago, I think. Was it last spring? No, it was in the fall. It was this past fall. But Leonard Lauder was an amazing art collector and had an amazing collection and had an amazing collection of cubist works that he donated to the Met. And so this group came up, and it was three very good examples of his sculptures. But my point is that really great, top quality Matisse works just are not around. They're not on the market. They're not for sale. They're either in very strong private hands, as we say, which means they're in really great collections that. Owned by people that love them and enjoy them and don't want to sell them, or they're a lot. You know, a lot of them are in institutions, which generally. Not always, but generally means that they are not for sale as well, so it. In a way, when things do come up, it's very exciting and very. An opportunity for people, but which means that the pricing can be very competitive, as they say, but also just, you know, you don't know when your next opportunity is going to happen. So if there's an opportunity to buy a great Matisse, we think it's a great idea.
- [35:25]
A
Right.
- [35:26]
B
You know, because it's. I mean, the market is strong, but it's not. It's not constant. So it's a little more difficult to really collect Matisse. Like, you could collect, let's say, Warhol, because Warhol was so prolific and there's so many works out there.
- [35:47]
A
Do someone like you, meaning your gallery or a museum, and I'm sure, like back to my earlier comment about, you know, pieces of art, you know, changing hands during World War II, without, you know, people like, you know, artwork being stolen and things like that, is there a sort of a. Do you generally have a understanding or do museums, top museums know kind of what's out there?
- [36:15]
B
For example, in our show, we have the set of backs. So they're called the backs. It's a set of four sculptures. The first back was done in 1908, and the last one was done in 1931. 32. What that means is he did the plaster and then it got cast in bronze at a later date. But when you list a sculpture like that, you talk about when it was conceived, and that's 1908 and then started, and then they were cast at different times. And then the last one he did is the most modern, the most abstracted version, and that's 1931. 32. So seeing all four together is really amazing.
- [36:53]
A
So he, like. He did the. The. The cast of a person's back.
- [36:59]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's the back of a. Of a bather. So it's influenced by Cezanne's bathers.
- [37:07]
A
Influenced by Cezanne.
- [37:09]
B
Cezanne's Bathers. So this is the back of a bather in a relief, a large format. You should look. Look at a photo and it will make more sense, obviously.
- [37:18]
A
Yeah. So, you know, you mentioned that you. Your dad and your, you know, your brothers. The gallery has sort of been talking about wanting to do this for 10 years without putting you on the spot, which I think I might be doing. What's sort of on your. Your wish list, the Aquavella wish list. Is there another show you'd love to put together at some time soon, like a Matisse show, maybe? Yes.
- [37:42]
B
You know, we do The. Well, we do these loan shows sort of every one and a half to two years for a variety of reasons. One is they require a lot of planning and work and logistics and all of that. Two, they're very expensive. Three, nothing's for sale, so that expense feels a little more painful.
- [38:03]
A
Right.
- [38:04]
B
And, but.
- [38:05]
A
And question, though, about the expenses. For those who might not understand why it is, it's probably the insurance. Right?
- [38:11]
B
Well, the insurance and shipping is very expensive these days. And of course, you know, different people have different security requirements for their work when it's being shipped and all of that. So there's just a lot of logistics and you have to time everything so not everything comes in at once. And it just takes a lot of very involved orchestration and planning. So we try and spread out our loan shows so that they're sort of every one and a half to two years. The last one we did was our Pierre Bonard show, which was an amazing show also, and he was another great colorist, just coincidentally. Anyway, we have a couple other shows that we talk about and wish there's one in particular that if we can pull it off, it will be absolutely amazing. So stay tuned. I'm not going to say what it is because I don't want to give anyone a great idea.
- [39:02]
A
Yeah.
- [39:03]
B
Oh, oh, right.
- [39:03]
A
You can't let the cat out of the bag.
- [39:05]
B
But, you know, some of them are just. Some ideas we have are just too hard. You can't get the loans. They're. They're too far spread out across the world in regions that are difficult to access or people don't want to lend. And so anyway. But yes, we are always thinking about our next sort of big, important loan show that brings in lots of people. It's free to the public. It's a great way to see amazing art for people in a small, intimate and free place.
- [39:39]
A
The show opened yesterday, right.
- [39:43]
B
We had 300 people yesterday.
- [39:44]
A
I was gonna ask what, like, what has the reaction been?
- [39:47]
B
I mean, it's been. It's been great. Everyone that has seen it. I mean, I've gotten so many nice emails and texts and, you know, from people that have seen it or heard about it and can't wait to see it. And I think we're gonna have good, steady crowds and hopefully not too long of a line to get in, but it's. It's being incredibly, incredibly well received, as it should be.
- [40:14]
A
Well, I'm. I'm coming up the first week of May, probably to stay in your apartment, which I haven't arranged with you yet.
- [40:22]
B
But I can't wait.
- [40:26]
A
But when I do, I mean, I can't wait to see it.
- [40:29]
B
Oh, it's so, I'm telling you, it's really, really. I mean, I, I keep joking. Like, I have not seen my dad this happy in a very long time. Matisse is absolutely one of his favorite artists. One of maybe two or three. And he is, like, ecstatic. And that makes it even more wonderful.
- [40:52]
A
That's so great. That's so great. Well, I really appreciate, particularly, I don't want to give you a behind the music on this interview, springing this on Eleanor at the 11th hour and me having some technical issues, but I really appreciate it. I think it's just, it's such a. By the way, it's an important, it's a really just generous public service you all are doing and putting it together to give people access to this art that they might. That they wouldn't see otherwise. So thank you.
- [41:19]
B
Thank you. That's nice of you to say. And I mean, we love it. We love having it in our gallery and being able to see it every day. It's a total pleasure.
- [41:28]
A
Well, I know it's a pleasure for everyone else who's in line. And I'm hoping I get some, you know, I can get some secret pass.
- [41:35]
B
You. You can. You can. I'll get you in early. I'll get you in early. Okay. Well, thank you so much. I miss you. I can't wait to see you.
- [41:45]
A
That brings us to the end of this episode of Duologue. A huge thank you to Eleanor Acquivello for joining. I enjoyed everybody minute of our conversation. I learned so much and I can't wait to get up to New York to see this amazing show before it closes on May 22. Also, a big thank you and shout out to our sponsor, Cozy Earth. Cozy Earth is offering from now until April 18, a special offer in honor of Mother's Day where you can buy one and then give one for free. So you purchase one and you can get a second set of their bamboo sheet sets for free. Just go to www.cozyearth.com and put in our promo code duologuebogo or duologue b o g o for buy one, give one, run, don't walk. That's a great, great offer. And thank you all so much again for listening to this week's episode. If you enjoyed it, please rate or review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We release a new episode every Wednesday, so until next Wednesday, this is Leslie. And thanks so much for listening to Duologue.