John Forté Pt. 1

Summary

Detailed Summary of "John Forté Pt. 1"

The Interview with Leslie Heaney features a compelling dialogue between host Leslie Heaney and Grammy-nominated recording artist, songwriter, activist, and filmmaker John Forté. In this first part of a two-part series released on September 18, 2024, Leslie delves deep into John’s multifaceted life, exploring his journey from a gifted child in Brooklyn to a pivotal figure in the music industry.

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1. Early Life and Upbringing

John Forté provides an intimate glimpse into his formative years in Brownsville, Brooklyn. Raised by a single mother who was a relentless supporter, John describes the community's influence and the absence of modern digital distractions during his childhood.

John Forté [04:08]: "I was raised in Brownsville, Brooklyn. That space occupies a significant part of my being to this day."

He recounts participating in activities like Little League baseball and playing the violin, highlighting his early engagement with music without direct parental influence.

John Forté [05:25]: "Mom was not instrumental in pushing me in any direction that I didn't raise my hand first and say, hey, you know, I'm interested."

2. Educational Journey and Musical Development

John’s academic path took a significant turn when he was identified as a gifted student. Initially attending P.S. 183, his talents were recognized, leading to a transfer to the more specialized Dr. Roseby English School (formerly PS327) in Brownsville, which offered a robust gifted and talented program.

John Forté [12:26]: "PS327... they had a so-called gifted and talented program."

At Exeter, John experienced a blend of classical training and exposure to diverse musical influences. Despite feeling out of depth initially in the orchestra, his determination saw him rise to first chair.

John Fortê [08:14]: "I had to... advance relatively quickly from relative obscurity to ultimately being first chair in my public school orchestra."

3. Transition to Hip Hop and Early Career

While excelling in classical music, John’s passion for hip hop also blossomed. His friendship with Talib Kweli, who would later become his roommate at NYU, played a pivotal role in his musical evolution. At NYU, John balanced his role as an A&R executive at an independent record company, Raucous, while nurturing his own artistic pursuits.

John Fortê [23:36]: "My roommate at NYU was Talib Kweli... we were roomies in 3rd Avenue North, right... around the corner from the Palladium."

His involvement with Raucous allowed John to bridge his business acumen with his creative instincts, fostering collaborations that would shape his career.

4. Collaboration with the Fugees

A turning point in John’s career was his encounter with the Fugees. Attending a Fugees showcase led to a serendipitous meeting with Lauryn Hill, establishing a lasting professional and personal relationship.

John Fortê [32:32]: "This is it. Stick around. I had no idea that they were incorporating live instrumentation into their set."

Their collaboration was instrumental in the creation of The Score, a seminal album that propelled both the Fugees and John Forté to international acclaim. John reflects on the magic of their creative synergy and the profound impact of their work.

John Fortê [43:30]: "There’s a magic... It's almost like... you can’t quite put your finger on when it all kind of comes together."

5. Solo Endeavors and "Poli Sci"

Buoyed by the success of The Score, John ventured into his solo career with the album Poli Sci. Determined to infuse his unique vision, he took the reins of his creative process, collaborating closely with Wyclef Jean.

John Fortê [51:07]: "I have a bunch of ideas of my own. I'm going to go to Conshohocken, Pennsylvania... I wanted to take reins of what I was going to do."

Despite the album receiving critical acclaim, it fell short of commercial expectations compared to the monumental success of the Fugees and other collaborators. This disparity led to feelings of inadequacy and disillusionment for John.

John Fortê [55:30]: "The album comes out to critical acclaim, but commercial disappointment."

6. Descent into Legal Troubles

Struggling with the pressures of rapid success and unmet personal aspirations, John’s narrative takes a darker turn as he becomes entangled in illicit activities. Seeking financial support to continue his musical endeavors, he becomes a middleman for drug couriers.

John Fortê [60:03]: "By doing what? By introducing this guy to couriers... I could turn a blind eye to it."

This decision ultimately leads to his arrest at Newark Airport during a drug sting operation, marking the end of the first part of his story.

John Fortê [63:12]: "I remember time slowing down. It's like a movie. And... they arrested us all."

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Notable Quotes:

• John Fortê [04:08]: "I was raised in Brownsville, Brooklyn. That space occupies a significant part of my being to this day."
• John Fortê [12:26]: "PS327... they had a so-called gifted and talented program."
• John Fortê [23:36]: "My roommate at NYU was Talib Kweli... we were roomies in 3rd Avenue North, right... around the corner from the Palladium."
• John Fortê [32:32]: "This is it. Stick around. I had no idea that they were incorporating live instrumentation into their set."
• John Fortê [43:30]: "There’s a magic... It's almost like... you can’t quite put your finger on when it all kind of comes together."
• John Fortê [51:07]: "I have a bunch of ideas of my own. I'm going to go to Conshohocken, Pennsylvania... I wanted to take reins of what I was going to do."
• John Fortê [55:30]: "The album comes out to critical acclaim, but commercial disappointment."
• John Fortê [63:12]: "I remember time slowing down. It's like a movie. And... they arrested us all."

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Conclusion

In this first installment, John Fortê’s narrative is a tapestry of immense talent, groundbreaking collaborations, personal ambition, and the vulnerabilities that come with rapid success. Leslie Heaney masterfully guides the conversation, allowing listeners to connect deeply with John’s experiences and the intricate interplay between his artistic pursuits and personal challenges. The episode sets the stage for an in-depth exploration of John’s resilience and redemption in the forthcoming second part.

Transcript

[Leslie Heaney]

Hello, this is Leslie, and you're listening to the interview with Leslie Heaney. I'm very happy to be back after my brief summer hiatus to bring you a truly inspirational story of someone who's experienced all of life's highs and lows and has come through it all thanks to his grace, his resilience, his great friends and his incredible talent. I'm honored to be speaking with Grammy nominated recording artist, songwriter, activist, filmmaker and friend, John Forte. John is probably best known for writing and producing songs for the Fugees and their multi platinum record the Score and for his collaborations with Wyclef Jean. After huge success as a producer in the late 90s and following the tough, unsuccessful, well, in John's mind at least, unsuccessful release of his first album, Poli Sci, John went into a deep isolation. When an opportunity presented itself for him to work as a middleman for drug careers, John took it. His focus then was less on the work he was doing and more on what he could do with the money that he was earning, which was to make more music. In July of 2000, John was arrested at Newark Airport as part of a drug sting operation and was sentenced to the mandatory minimum of 14 years in a federal prison. With friends like Carly Simon, with support from an unlikely ally and then Republican Senator Orrin Hatch, John's case was presented to President George W. Bush for commutation. And after seven years, John was finally free. After prison, John went on to do what he was always called to do, which is to make music. And for more than two decades, he has produced solo albums, scored countless soundtracks for television and films. John's story is so inspiring. He said one movie made already about his tour in Russia and life called the Russian Winter and has another movie about his life in production. And this is all while he's enjoying his wonderful life as a father of two living on Martha's Vineyard. In this two part interview, John and I talk about his upbringing, his incredible career, his life in prison, his commutation by President Bush and all the amazing work he's accomplished since then. Not to mention the wonderful life that he has built, savoring the simple pleasures like fishing and being a dad while also making music, writing and producing films. John's story is one of promise, hope, redemption and love. His life and example move and inspire me. And I know it will you too. So with that, here's John Forte. John, I'm so happy to see you. And I've been, we've been talking for a few months about getting together and having this Conversation. And I really appreciate you making the time to come in. We were also talking about me perhaps making a visit to your home territory of Martha's Vineyard, which we could still do. We could do a part two, I.

[John Forte]

Guess, if the fans write in and wave their hands and then you get this overwhelming response about this episode, and they're just like, you know, we.

[Leslie Heaney]

We want part two.

[John Forte]

We need more. Totally. Yeah. Hop on a ferry.

[Leslie Heaney]

I was telling my husband that I was gonna go see John on the Vineyard, and I think maybe it was February that I was texting with you about it, and he said, don't you wanna wait until at least May before you do that? And so we did. But of course, we're like, you know, in New York, so I'm not quite sure where to begin, because you've had such an extraordinary life and incredible, incredible highs and some lows, as we all have, but I.

[John Forte]

C'est la vie.

[Leslie Heaney]

Exactly. That is life as we know. But I think, you know, I love hearing people's origin stories. Let's take it from the top. You know, where did you grow up? And how did we get from young John Forte to the incredible John Forte sitting across from me now?

[John Forte]

Oh, boy. Left turns, right turns, U turns, detours, jug handles.

[Leslie Heaney]

I'm from New Jersey. I love throwing in a jug handle every once in a while.

[John Forte]

Yeah. My mom's in New Jersey now. I was raised in Brownsville, Brooklyn. That it's a space that it occupies a significant part of my being to this day, when I think about the community that existed there. And my mom being this force of one, shepherding my older sister Natasha and me during the late 70s and early 80s, long before the Internet. Right. When we played outside and connected in a way that didn't involve, you know, screens. Right. Tender moments, moments of realization and coming online in a different way. Just awareness of my place in space and time. I played Little League baseball. I played the violin.

[Leslie Heaney]

I was going to ask you about when and how did music come into your life? And was your mom kind of instrumental, I guess? No.

[John Forte]

No pun intended. Yeah, you're good. You're good. Where did that music come in?

[Leslie Heaney]

Oh, yeah.

[John Forte]

Is mom instrumental? Mom. Mom was not instrumental in pushing me in any direction that I didn't raise my hand first and say, hey, you know, I'm interested. All to say that before there was the violin, I spent a summer at the Brooklyn Museum, taking art classes, oil painting, because it was offered. And I said to my mom, hey, that was something that I'd want to Do. And so she was never one to over promise and under deliver, but if she could make it happen, she did. And so she supported my dreams. One day I came home and I said, got this violin. I don't know how to play it.

[Leslie Heaney]

But was it from music class that you.

[John Forte]

No, it was. It was from. It was from our elementary school orchestra.

[Leslie Heaney]

Okay.

[John Forte]

And, you know, I tell the story because the day. The day happened, and they said, all right, today, you know, we're handing out instruments and there's the band and then there's the orchestra. And I went to these two rooms, and the band class had a really long line. I mean, it was like, I don't know, 15 kids, maybe 20.

[Leslie Heaney]

Like a band, like rock band.

[John Forte]

It was. It was the school band.

[Leslie Heaney]

Okay.

[John Forte]

And so you were getting instruments that would have you play, presumably, you know, popular music.

[Leslie Heaney]

Okay. I didn't know if it would cause, you know, I don't mean to. To stigmatize certain bands, but, you know, the school bands that do. Like the outside with me.

[John Forte]

Correct? Correct. Yes.

[Leslie Heaney]

For football games versus the.

[John Forte]

Versus the orchestra, which was across the hall. And there was no line whatsoever. So then I thought to myself, ah, I could sit here and wait for 20 minutes, or I could just walk right in and walk right out with an instrument. And that's what determined my fate. Or at least, you know, initially it was the availability. It was the instant access to something. And so I walked in and the teacher looked at me and said, well, violin, viola, cello, bass. And I said, so you.

[Leslie Heaney]

So you just picked one?

[John Forte]

I just picked one.

[Leslie Heaney]

And then did you have a natural affinity for it? Were you kind of driven to get better at it or. Because that's really. To me, that's really speaks a lot to someone's, you know, just sort of natural drive if you have that compulsion to kind of want to get better. Because at least having my own kids, like, I don't want to do that. I'm not good at it. I'm like, you can't get good at it unless you practice it. Right. No matter what it is. Did you start practicing a lot or taking lessons or what was the.

[John Forte]

I had to.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[John Forte]

And, you know, there's this. What's known as the phenomenon of woodshedding. You take music out to the woodshed because you can't do it around your friends and family. Cause you drive them crazy. And so you woodshed the music, and you learn it in a place where you can make a lot of mistakes.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah, but how do you woodshed in an Apartment or in a brownstone basement?

[John Forte]

No, no, no. I wish. I wish we had a basement. I wish I went into my room and I closed the door. And my family, they were incredibly tolerant. Yeah, I was. I was gonna say, you know, I was no prodigy. Although I did advance relatively quickly from, you know, relative obscurity to ultimately, you know, being first chair in my public school orchestra.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[John Forte]

Which meant that, you know, I was able to play Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star at the Brooklyn Academy and Museum during our recital and stand up and, you know, do my part. But it didn't mean that, you know, years later, by the time I got to Exeter and met your husband, that when I joined the orchestra there, that my skill set was anywhere near my peers because, you know, they had access to, you know, Suzuki private lessons. And they started a lot younger. You know, I was, I think, eight when I started, so I was. I was pretty old.

[Leslie Heaney]

I think that's the universal Exeter experience. So as you get there, and it's like shock and awe, seriously.

[John Forte]

Feeling. Feeling that you're. You're a little out of depth.

[Leslie Heaney]

But I thought.

[John Forte]

I thought my science project was impressive.

[Leslie Heaney]

Exactly. I thought I. Oh, I'm. I'm going to be on the thirds team. I mean, at least that was Andrew's experience was like, you know, he. You know. Anyway, I think it's humbling no matter what. You know, whether you came into it with the music or, you know, arts or sports, they really. It's about breaking you down before they build you back up. It's. It's. It's so true. It gets real there. So how did you find Exeter? How did that come about?

[John Forte]

I think that.

[Leslie Heaney]

Or how did Exeter find you?

[John Forte]

Yeah, I think it was a lot of that, you know, after. So I was at a school in Brownsville called P.S. 183 when we first moved into the neighborhood. And it was my first day at P.S. 183 when my mom was called and I was called out of class, and I thought that I was in trouble, and my mom had to leave her job at the phone company in the middle of the day in order to come and pick me up. And I was waiting outside of the principal's office, and I thought, you know, this is day one. What did I do? I didn't know what I did. And so my mom came out of the principal's office and she walked me away, and she said, the school has just informed me. And I said, I didn't do it. I didn't do it. And she said, wait, wait, Wait.

[Leslie Heaney]

Hopefully they gave her that heads up before she, you know, took the bus or however she got over there to let her know that you weren't in trouble.

[John Forte]

I hope so. I don't know. I don't know. But when we walked out, she said, you know, the school just let me know that after they ran you through a series of tests today, they realized that they didn't have programs here that they could offer you that they thought would match your abilities. And so they suggested a school that is a little further away that will require a commute, but that is not your zone school. And that was PS327, which is now Dr. Roseby English School in Brownsville. So it was a further hike, but they had a so called gifted and talented program.

[Leslie Heaney]

Okay.

[John Forte]

And so, you know, kind of a magnet thing. And they identified, quote, unquote, kids with abilities at that time that they could focus on.

[Leslie Heaney]

Because you're being very humble. They were, they were. I mean, I know we. I think everyone listening knows what happened that they identified, you know, your. You being exceptional, right. From the testing and how you're performing at school. And they wanted to make sure that they put you in another school that had. Right. Had programs that could, could help you kind of realize that potential.

[John Forte]

And the. Again, this was the 80s, right. Like, class sizes were still relatively enormous compared to, you know, like private schools and their abilities to serve, to service their student population. But PS327, man, I just remember them offering so much or so much more.

[Leslie Heaney]

Than what you had.

[John Forte]

Correct, correct. Just when it came to things to do things to keep you interested and inspired and curious. Whether it was the drama department, orchestra, science, they were great at paying attention and seeing us. And I remember that, you know, and then.

[Leslie Heaney]

So Exeter finds you and the orchestra, there was a bit of shock and awe. But as we've discussed, that's, I think, everyone's experience, no matter where they're coming from there, it's because there's always someone, as Andrew said, there was always someone who was like, you know, was smarter. I mean, he just was, you know.

[John Forte]

Or who is more impressive in some shape, form or fashion. But like in a really, really, you know, significant and material way, right. Where you're just blown away by your peers and you felt that all the time.

[Leslie Heaney]

So you arrived there, you got involved with music there immediately. Obviously, immediately you enjoyed your time there. I did, yeah.

[John Forte]

I did. It was lovely. You know, and again, when my guidance counselor at. Because I went from PS327 in Brownsville to Philip A Schuyler Middle School for the Gifted and Talented, right. In Bushwick for seventh and eighth grade. And it was there that my guidance counselor pulled me to the side and said, we think you should consider boarding school. And I was super. I was just, what? I'm a good kid. What are you? Boarding school. I had no concept. I thought that she was talking about reform school. And I had to protect what I thought was my integrity. I'm just like, I'm a good kid. Are you done? Yes. And then she went into her desk and pulled out a brochure for Tabor Academy. And I was like, robots? Yeah. I was like, what is this, gazebos on a campus? And at the time, my zone school in Brownsville, Brooklyn. If I didn't get into my public school of choice in New York, I was going to go to Thomas Jefferson High School, which was around the corner from where I was in Brownsville. And that was the year that metal detectors were installed.

[Leslie Heaney]

Wow.

[John Forte]

So it was a no brainer for me. It was okay, you know, take the risk of.

[Leslie Heaney]

Now, was your sister Natasha there? She's your older sister. Did she go to, was she at that high school?

[John Forte]

She wasn't at that high school she went to. She got into a specialized school for nursing. So she was at a Murray Bertram, if I'm sticking in Manhattan. So she was commuting every day. But I don't know, it wasn't like she was coming home with glowing reports of her experience either. And so the brochure, the reality check of what was going on in my community at that time made the boarding school experience a whole lot more attractive. Even before knowing that Exeter was a choice, you know, just looking at a pamphlet of something that just felt better.

[Leslie Heaney]

Than the option around the corner.

[John Forte]

Correct.

[Leslie Heaney]

And you had already had that experience, right, of going from taking the risk of going from one school to the other and seeing how that can open up all these different other opportunities. Right. By going to that other school. So you get there, you had a fine, nice experience at Exeter. You go to nyu. Tell us what happens at nyu, because that's when you sort of get. Or tell me, actually, did you transition from kind of classical music and orchestra at Exeter into music production or singing or doing other things there, or did that happen at nyu? What was your kind of musical career progression there?

[John Forte]

So I show up to Exeter ready to join orchestra and ready to excel.

[Leslie Heaney]

You've got Twinkle, twinkle under, you know, the star under your belt. You're ready to go.

[John Forte]

I'm glad you reminded. I'm glad you reminded your listening audience that the material. Because when we sat down on the first day, the professor handed out this music that was so complex. I don't even remember what the music was in retrospect, but I remember looking at the number of notes and thinking to myself, I'm gonna have to woodshed this. So many notes. Right, so to your point, yeah, it wasn't Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star anymore, but I realized very, very quickly that I was. I was out of my depth. And so I was able to do something else. And I took piano lessons very, very briefly, only to realize that, well, maybe that wasn't for me at that time. But as it goes, a friend of mine in a. I was in Wentworth, my friend, another friend of mine was in Webster, just, you know, a stone's throw across and he had a mini studio in his dorm room. And what does that mean in 1989?

[Leslie Heaney]

I was gonna ask you, like, this is like, it's a mixer. No, I'm not a mixer. So.

[John Forte]

Well, yes. All right. But we have, we have a keyboard, we have a beat machine, a Roland TR808. I know Roland doesn't sponsor this podcast, but they might want to now that we've name dropped them. So we have a right. We have a beat machine, we have a keyboard, and we have a microphone, and we have a four track TASCAM tape recorder which allows us to not just record one performance, but to record either four inputs at the same time or we can overdub four times. So it gave us more opportunity to have a rudimentary, albeit real studio experience.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah. Now how is that woodshedding for that friend of yours? Roommate? I mean, what was the. What is.

[John Forte]

Beau was always making demos. Yeah, he was from Minnesota. He was making dance music. And so I was listening to and learning what he was doing and also just paying a whole lot of attention. And so I would go from that environment during my school year and then I'd go back to Brooklyn on vacations, summertime and things like that. And it was during that time in Brooklyn, my freshman year, that a friend of a friend introduced me to another producer, DJ Premier.

[Leslie Heaney]

Okay.

[John Forte]

And it was DJ Premier. He was with this group called Gang Star, and they were actually out of Boston, but they were making their music in Brooklyn. So I learned how to make beats by watching DJ Premier, who is. Now, if anyone is, if anyone listening knows anything about hip hop, they'll know who DJ Premier is.

[Leslie Heaney]

But as a student now, were they in their own. Did they have their own studio there?

[John Forte]

They. At home studio.

[Leslie Heaney]

Their home studios. Okay.

[John Forte]

And actually, you know, well, you know, home studios where you could really make a demo. Right. But you had to go to a professional studio ultimately in order to refine the demo. You couldn't.

[Leslie Heaney]

Okay.

[John Forte]

You know, home studios weren't anywhere where they are now where you can, you know, you just can't tell the difference. But in the 80s, you had to do your pre production. You know, you could get away with doing your pre production in someone else's space in their living room just to.

[Leslie Heaney]

Like, work out all the kinks and the notes.

[John Forte]

You had to professionalize it. And professionalize it meant space, spending 300, $400 an hour. And unless you had record company support, the examples of being able to do that successfully were few and far between.

[Leslie Heaney]

Okay.

[John Forte]

Not impossible, but unlikely.

[Leslie Heaney]

So you're like, you're at Exeter, you're getting this classical music education right in the orchestra there. You're hanging out with Beau from Minnesota, mixing in his.

[John Forte]

Who's making dance music in his drum room.

[Leslie Heaney]

And then you're going on, you know.

[John Forte]

Back to East New York, hanging out.

[Leslie Heaney]

Hanging out with DJ Premier.

[John Forte]

Correct.

[Leslie Heaney]

And watching his process.

[John Forte]

Right.

[Leslie Heaney]

And then how did that change what you were doing? Did you then just. You're just learning and listening and then you're just kind of pushing yourself to try different forms and. Or did you start singing at that time? And then how did you kind of bring that all together?

[John Forte]

Being a student of peers and heroes allowed me to learn in a way that folks access Google today to see by example or to learn by seeing. And so my mentors, they were brilliant before me, and I did my best to pay attention. Right. Like I was a good student to your earlier point, I wrote my first rap probably the same year that I picked up the violin when I was eight. Different context, different scene, different setting. But I was hanging out with an older cousin on summer vacation in Virginia, and we had some sort of braggadocio competition, and he was listening to Run DMC at the time, and he challenged me, well, you can't do that. Well, yes, I can. And so I remember writing my first rap that summer, then going back to school and then having access to my first instrument. It showed me that I could actually involve myself in community. Right. And play a part. I didn't need to be the person front row and center, but to be in the band, to be a participant, to be a deliberate co creator, was altogether empowering. Whether I was playing the violin, whether I was writing a chorus based on a song, based on something else. The ability to participate. I mean, that's what songwriting ultimately became for me, Right? The ability to participate and actually, I.

[Leslie Heaney]

Guess, produce or pull the best parts, right? Whether it's Bo or the violin or what you're. Or your cousin or whomever, like pulling those best parts and then creating something that's your own. So you leave Exeter, you go to nyu. Now, I'm sure, obviously, you're continuing all through Exeter, right, with this drawing from all these different influences. Then you get there and you meet Lauryn Hill there. Was that the. No. You first became part of the refugee camp All Stars. Was that at nyu?

[John Forte]

No. So my roommate at NYU was Talib Kweli. Tlib Kweli and I, we'd actually known each other since we were 12 years old and growing up in Brooklyn together, Westeroom together. We did.

[Leslie Heaney]

I was gonna say, did they even allow that back then? I don't remember.

[John Forte]

So he was graduating, and then he. I'm applying to NYU early. I said, oh, I am, too. He said, oh, well, you know, if you get in, we should be roomies, right? And so he got in and I got in. And so we raised our hands and we wanted to room together. So we were roomies in 3rd Avenue north, which is a fantastic experience, right, because you're in this dorm apartment building smack dab in the city, around the corner from the Palladium and up the street from Washington Square park, which is where we congregated and just hung out for years. And so we were in our hood. First week we're at nyu, I'm there. I'm really jazzed up. I'm going to, I don't know, some music composition, business amalgamation, you know, class. And then I get a notification that my presence is requested at the bursar's office. If anyone's listening to this, doesn't know what that means. It's where you get financial aid. That's where you deal with your scholarship. And so I walked in the office, and they informed me that I owed the school $7,200, and I needed to give them that within the week or else.

[Leslie Heaney]

But how soon after you started?

[John Forte]

Within the first week. Within the first week. So I didn't have a clear understanding of what my scholarship, a package represented. And they were letting me know that, oh, no, you didn't have the full ride that you thought you did, which included, you know, housing, food. It hit me hard, but I took it as divine intervention that, well, now wasn't my time to have the college experience. And so I stayed in the dorm for as long as I could until my student ID didn't work.

[Leslie Heaney]

How long before they. Because it's a big school. You probably got away with that for at least a month. Okay, I was going to say a month.

[John Forte]

And then that coincided with a friend from Exeter giving me a call one day saying, hey, you should meet a couple of friends of mine getting ready to graduate from Brown. Jarrett Meyer, Brian Brader, and they want to start a record company. And I told them about you and they want to. They want to meet you. So I thought, oh, man. Some young guys starting the independent record company. Okay, I'll see what they have to say now.

[Leslie Heaney]

You're like, 18.

[John Forte]

I am 18.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[John Forte]

I'm 18 at the time.

[Leslie Heaney]

Amazing.

[John Forte]

And they're down on Reed street, which is in walking distance, pretty much. I'm like, okay, well, you know, this kind of kismet, right? You're in the hood. And I walked in the office and I. And I just remember thinking to myself, ah, I don't even know if I want to. If I'd even consider signing to an independent record company. I'm a major label type of artist, you know? And it was kind of like. It was kind of like that guidance counselor who showed me the brochure. It's like, are you done?

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah, I guess.

[John Forte]

Well, yeah, we weren't interested in you as an artist. What? You're not What? Well, no. Our friend Diana told us that you are connected to a bunch of artists. And so we'd be interested in hiring you as our director of A and R. You'd be the person responsible for finding, signing, cultivating our artists. I called my mom.

[Leslie Heaney]

Mom, I got a job.

[John Forte]

I just got offered this job. And she said, what do you think? And I'm like, well, it's, you know, it's an independent record company. And she said, okay, well, do you have a job? No. Are you in school? No.

[Leslie Heaney]

She's like, take the job.

[John Forte]

Duh. Take the job. And I took the job.

[Leslie Heaney]

So what does A and R stand for?

[John Forte]

Artist and repertoire.

[Leslie Heaney]

Okay.

[John Forte]

And so that's sort of like you're.

[Leslie Heaney]

Kind of their agent. Right?

[John Forte]

I'm the liaison. I liaise between the record company and between the artists. Right. So I'm the. I'm supposed to be sympathetic to the business model, although compassionate. Wholly compassionate to the artist.

[Leslie Heaney]

And so you're kind of the perfect.

[John Forte]

Person for your job. I speak artists.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yes.

[John Forte]

But at the same time, I understand that there's a bottom line. Right. And so they put me in that position to learn on the fly. And it was enlightening and inspiring.

[Leslie Heaney]

And so would you go. Were you going to, like, clubs and like, maybe even maybe. Maybe schools like NYU might have had bands or people or just mostly clubs and mostly clubs.

[John Forte]

And because I'd spent years, years, years just cultivating friendships within the community, I ended up taking these guys to my friends and said, yeah, hop on the train. We're going to go out to East New York, we're going to go out to Brownsville, and you're gonna hear 30 guys rap to you in an apartment, essentially auditioning for you. It was like the era of Wu Tang.

[Leslie Heaney]

It was like, now, what's their background? They just loved music and they were just interested and they had some backing and they.

[John Forte]

Yeah, correct. And we're talking about, you know, Jarrett Meyer, Brian Brater and James Murdoch. And I don't know, I think James did not finish Harvard that year. I think he dropped out his senior year in order to start Raucous. So there was so. It was not, you know, it was not without its own sort of push points or controversies for them to get that off the ground.

[Leslie Heaney]

So you're bringing them out, you're taking them to the home. Those home studios, right, of your friends, and then you then become part of the refugee camp All Stars band or group. As this is happening.

[John Forte]

So as this is happening, as I'm wearing this hat, this. Where I'm thinking to myself, okay, you know, I'm a music business executive. That's who I am.

[Leslie Heaney]

I love this, by the way. And back then you probably had business.

[John Forte]

Cards and you were 100% business cards with logos.

[Leslie Heaney]

You had your sharp, not sharp, StarTac. And you were like, you know, we.

[John Forte]

Had all sorts of tech. Yeah, yeah, all sorts of tech on our way to more tech. And. But I said to myself, okay, you know what? Yeah, this is what I'm doing. I'm an A and R guy. Like, I'm doing the business of it. And I'm hanging out and a friend of a friend's space, and my friend and colleague Jeff Burroughs is there and he comes in and he's waving a video cassette tape, a vhs. And he said, I've got the future of music here. And at the time, he's working at Columbia Records, Sony, Columbia, and he pops it in and it's a black and white video. Two guys and a girl. And they're singing this song called Boof Bath. And they're jumping around and they've got all this energy. It's some it's just like. It's just like, wow. And I'm just like, wow, there's so much energy. But okay, I'm interested. And he said, you are. Great. Come to the supper club tonight because they're playing it at 8:00. I'll put you on the list. Fine. I walk into the supper club later that night.

[Leslie Heaney]

Wait, sorry. James Burrow is working at Columbia Records and he's working with you all at Rockets, where he just.

[John Forte]

No, no, no, no. We're just friends. Okay? We're just friends. We're just friends. And in fact, he was roommates with a person who used to manage me and who was one of New York City's biggest party promoters, Jessica Rosenblum, who managed Funk Master Flex. And I mean, this is. This is at a time again in the 90s now. We're talking about when clubs could have 10,000 young people in them at once. Can you imagine 10,000 young people in one space? Right? Like the Limelight, the Palladium, the Tunnel. So we had all of these. All of these access and touch points to the scene, to the nightlife. Because it was all connected, right? It was all connected. And Jeff Burroughs was a friend of mine from that whole world. Via Jessica Rosenblum. I walk into the supper club to go see the Fugees, and there's a stage that has instruments on it. And I immediately walked in and thought, oh, my God, I'm at the wrong place. And the security guards. And I said I was here to see a hip hop group called the Fugees. Oh, man. Yeah, this is it. Stick around. I had no idea that they were incorporating live instrumentation into their set, because the expectation was if you were a hip hop artist, you had a dj.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yep, yep.

[John Forte]

And so you walk into a hip hop showcase, you're going to see turntables, you're going to see microphones, but you're not going to see keyboards, saxophones, guitars, drum risers. You're not going to see that until you did. And I stuck around and I saw the show. And afterwards I stayed on the meet and greet line to meet them. And that was the first night that I met Lauren. And we were on the meet and greet line. And I told her, I said, hey, I'm an A and R guy at Raucous. I was at nyu, but I really loved your show. And we spoke for seven to 10 minutes on the meet and greet line.

[Leslie Heaney]

While there are other people waiting, waiting.

[John Forte]

So we became friends.

[Leslie Heaney]

Now who's meeting now? Are they. There's Obviously, probably other executives in the audience to see them. Or was it mostly.

[John Forte]

They were already signed at that point?

[Leslie Heaney]

They were okay.

[John Forte]

But this was a showcase and so they were folks from the league.

[Leslie Heaney]

Oh, that's the word I'm looking. See, I've got to get all the lingo. The lingo. The industry lingo here.

[John Forte]

So. Yes, absolutely. Columbia was introducing them to New York DJs, to tastemakers to. DJs weren't really even a phenomenon at that point just yet because they didn't have regular shows. Funkmaster Flex was on his way to becoming the juggernaut that he would. But it was still relatively underground at that time. So major label support like this was pretty critical in terms of garnering national support. Right. Because you still wanted to lean into radio as much as you could, because radio was king.

[Leslie Heaney]

So was like wplj, DJ reps are there.

[John Forte]

Exactly.

[Leslie Heaney]

Ok.

[John Forte]

Exactly. That's exactly right. Right. Folks needing to know that. That, that this was the next wave of what was coming.

[Leslie Heaney]

So you talked to her for seven or 10 minutes and obviously, you know, you guys hit it off. You're very handsome. She's beautiful. Was there a. I mean, was this. You just were just chatting? It was more professional.

[John Forte]

Yes.

[Leslie Heaney]

Okay.

[John Forte]

Initially.

[Leslie Heaney]

Okay. And then you. By the way, I wasn't even sure if that ever progressed anywhere. I just thought I'd throw that out there because I'm thinking, wait, what? Why is she spending seven to 10 minutes talking to you in line? Unless she's, you know. So okay, so then what happens? Did you give her your business card?

[John Forte]

And you know. You know what? We became friends and we became confidants.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[John Forte]

And she began sharing music with me. I began sharing music with her even though I was doing my A and R thing. What Lauren knew about me at that time that a lot of people didn't know was that after my artist would leave the studio at 1 or 2 in the morning, I would still hang out and I'd make music. I'd make beats.

[Leslie Heaney]

Wait, let me ask the question about that. So within which I guess makes sense, your label, I mean, you're an exec, you have your own studio.

[John Forte]

Well, exactly. Okay, so I was responsible for building or helping. Helping Raucous to build its studio. Right. Because of my experience. And so working with other sound engineers to build our own studio space, which we had in. I think it was the time. Building on 30. No, it was the New Yorker. The Hotel New York. Hotel New York on 34th street and 8th Avenue. We had. We had a rental Space up there that became raucous studio where we would bring in our artists. And so that was our ability to control the process as much as we could without outsourcing it. It was power to have your own studio, right? To be able to dictate when you could bring your artists in for how long. And so for me that was just okay. I had artisan for 12 hours, but now they're leaving at 2 in the morning and I can stay here for another three hours and just work on my own thing, which I ultimately did.

[Leslie Heaney]

So you're talking with her, she comes into your studio and then you're sharing music.

[John Forte]

We're sharing music, we're sharing ideas, we're sharing our visions of how we see things. And so she's calling me from the road and this is what's going on. And so one day she calls me and she says, yeah, I just found out from the label that based on the success, like it was the last minute remix done by Salaam Remy of their song Fujila that was on Blunted on Reality. It was a remix. It became an underground sensation enough for Sony to say, okay, we're going to renew your contract. We're going to give you guys another shot to do this. And so Lauren called me from Hawaii and she's like, oh, Sony's giving us another shot. Oh, that's amazing. Congratulations. So proud of you. And she says, when I come home, I want you to, I want you to come to the studio and I want you to play the guys what you played me. And I'm like, what? I said, no, I said I'm an executive, I'm not a producer. Right. Like I'm a director of A and.

[Leslie Heaney]

R. Did you not see my business card that I gave you?

[John Forte]

Yeah, I gave you a bunch of my business cards. Right. And it didn't take much arm twisting. But yeah, I remember being resistant to the notion initially of sharing beyond my friend.

[Leslie Heaney]

That was it like more of an imposter syndrome or.

[John Forte]

No, it was just fear of rejection, I think. I didn't want to show up in the and to. And to feel like I was outclassed again.

[Leslie Heaney]

You mean again. Are you referring to the Exeter Violin? Violin, I was going to say the orchestra.

[John Forte]

Yeah, sure. Or showing up into a so called cipher in Washington Square park and thinking that you've got the best freestyle lyrics only to find out that there's an emcee named Supernatural that will always be a better freestyle than you.

[Leslie Heaney]

So she says to you based on this exchange that you Both have had for some time. Like, no, I want you to play for the rest of the band the stuff that you've been sharing with me. So you get over there. Now they have their own recording studio where they're part of Sony Records. Okay. So they're already kind of on their way.

[John Forte]

They are.

[Leslie Heaney]

But the score was. There was every pun intended. It was. It was like the big deal. Right? So you go over, you start playing your music for the group, and then what do they say? They're like, john, we want you to. Let's do this together. We're working on this album. Or was it.

[John Forte]

Once I saw that there was resonance with one or two of the tracks and Clef was. Wyclef was very much vocal about his support. Like, oh, man, this is. You got something here. This is pretty good stuff. And I said, oh, well, you like the beat? Well, I also wrote a rhyme that goes something like, D D, D, D, D. Yeah. And so he said, oh. So it's not just the beat, but, you know, you. You sing, you're rhyming, you're rapping. I wasn't singing. I was rapping. I was rapping. I wasn't singing. Not that. Not. Not yet.

[Leslie Heaney]

I was gonna say, but you can do that, too.

[John Forte]

I didn't now, but. But. But not then. Back then, it was. It was. It was. It was. I was making beats and I was wrong. It left a decent. A solid enough of an impression on everyone who was in that basement that night. And it was a lot of people in that basement. Their studio was called the Booga basement.

[Leslie Heaney]

And where was it?

[John Forte]

Was it South Orange, New Jersey? It was in the basement of Jerry Duplessis, who was Wyclef's cousin and another co producer on the score. It was in the basement of their townhouse in South Orange, and it was the hub of all things Fuji.

[Leslie Heaney]

Was that sort of what you would consider like a home studio? Or did they.

[John Forte]

Okay, it was. It was a home studio, but it was incredibly professionalized.

[Leslie Heaney]

Okay. But then they would kick it up a notch, like for the final cut, and take it to. No, no, that was the place.

[John Forte]

They didn't have to. They did not have to. They had. I don't know if they had a neve board or an ssl, but they had a mixing console that might have had a few years on it, but it was a mixing console that could rival any studio that you're paying $300, $400 an hour for. Not to mention the real, real tape machines that we were recording on. And they had an in house engineer, Warren Riker, who was essentially full time professional gear head but knew enough about everything in there to professionalize their sound in a way that put them light years ahead of their peers. Right. Because they were able to just woodshed to the nth degree because they weren't worried about, you know, keeping the lights on. It was in the basement.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's amazing. And so the basement's packed. You are rapping, you're sharing the music that you shared with Lauren. And at that moment they sort of were like, john, we want you to.

[John Forte]

Be a part of this. We want you to contribute.

[Leslie Heaney]

You're going to be in the basement with us. We're all together in the basement. And how, you know, what happened then and did you know at that time as your. That this was going to be as big as it was?

[John Forte]

The moment I knew or the moment I suspected that the score had a shot to have the resonance that it did was when we had, we had a private listening party in the, in the book of Basement. It was the day that somebody ran over the last reel to reel tape to Sony to say, you know, the album's done. But before we did it with the industry, before we had an industry listening party, we had a listening party amongst ourselves. Where I remember they started it from the beginning and this had all the skits in there and everything. Like we got to hear it in its completion and you could hear a pin drop throughout. And there was the moment when the album ended, the silence continued throughout. Almost as the reality of the greatness of that act again of deliberate co creation set into any and everyone within earshot, we were able to really appreciate what it took to have that offering. But it was in that moment where I thought to myself, wow, this is.

[Leslie Heaney]

Really, really great because it's almost like. And you hear about these, you know, when the Beatles or these incredible bands that come together, there's sort of a, you know, not to get spiritual about it, but it's sort of a magic, right?

[John Forte]

There's let's go there, let's get spiritual.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah. That you can't quite put your finger on when it all kind of comes together. And that I think really is one of those albums, like one of those great, great albums. And so it comes out, the album is released, the fugees explode, you're 20. Yep, yep, yeah, 20 and nominated for a Grammy at 21. Which is like pretty heady stuff for a 20. I mean, most of us are just excited that our ID Is finally legal for real. You're, you know, nominated for a Grammy. You have this incredible body of work. I mean, what was that like?

[John Forte]

It was awesome, right? It was awesome to be. To be seen, to be validated by peers, but to also be in the room, to have opportunities to work with artists like the Temptations, like Michael Jackson.

[Leslie Heaney]

Tell me about that. How did that kind of thing. Were you collaborating on songs with them, following that, or would they want to sing? You know, sometimes they'll be, like, at the Grammys, you'll have, you know, a guest artist come on to sing a song with the artist that actually sings that song. Was it that kind of collaboration or.

[John Forte]

Well, I ended up producing a. A remix for the Temptations. Call Stay. And that was just by me hanging out in the building at Sony. Just being in.

[Leslie Heaney]

Oh, stop it.

[John Forte]

Just hanging out and somebody being on the phone, you know, and an opportunity. Oh, the Temptations need a remix. Raise my hand, I'll take it on. Well, how much do you want for it? I threw out a number. You got it. Went to the studio that night and did the remix. You know, a week later, I'm at home and Clef calls me. We're doing. We're doing a song for Michael Jackson, Blood on the Dance Floor. You want to rap on it? Sure. And so I go to the studio and listen to the song. I write my rap. And now it's Michael Jackson featuring John Forte, produced by Wyclef Jean.

[Leslie Heaney]

Amazing.

[John Forte]

It's being in the room, right?

[Leslie Heaney]

Being in the room and being, you know, I also, you know, not being an artist, but, you know, playing one on TV or aspiring, like, being around them, people like you. But I, you know, I feel like, you know, and you'll hear about it, like, you'll see people interview or whether it's actors or musicians or. I wanted to work with that person. I've always wanted to work with that person. So collaborate. So having you and Wyclef and Lauren, everyone who was involved, kind of coming out of that with this incredible body of work. Right. And this album, you can see why Michael Jackson or Sony would say, like, this is our, like, latest and greatest talent, that let's take other great talents and bring it. Bring everybody together and see what we can create. Yeah. So then there's probably a tour, right There many. Were you on the tour or did you not need to be on the tour or how did that work?

[John Forte]

So I was still working at Raucous at the time. Oh, right.

[Leslie Heaney]

We didn't talk about. I know you and I could probably be here all weekend. I feel like we have so much to cover. But we didn't talk about sort of how, like, your side hustle, you're like, I was moonlighting.

[John Forte]

And then the next thing you know, you know, this record comes out, and I kind of have to go back to the office and have a heart to heart with these guys.

[Leslie Heaney]

I'm like, well, it only happened after hours.

[John Forte]

They've asked me to come out on the road. And so, you know, much to Jarrett, Bryan, and James credit, they gave me their blessing. They said, john, you know, you want to be an artist, give it a shot, and if, for whatever reason it doesn't work out, you know, come back, come back, come back.

[Leslie Heaney]

But also, having you out on the road, too, you know, you're in the room, right? In another room. Cause I'm sure, at least again, what I see on tv, you got. You're going on tour and other artists are coming and visiting, and there's conversations, and you're collaborating and just picking up and jamming or whatever you guys are doing.

[John Forte]

So you and the Fugees have this massive management machine behind them, right. David Sonnenberg, who manages at the time, Joan Osbourne. Who else does he have? I mean, he's got a stable of artists or the management companies, stable of artists. And so they're also in the business of connecting those dots. And so, next thing you know, they're making a movie about Muhammad Ali and the fight that he had with George Foreman, Rumble in the Jungle. And so we were out on tour at that time on Smoking Grooves. And I think we're out with Public Enemy, Cypress Hill, Tribe Called Quest, Busta Rhymes when that opportunity came through.

[Leslie Heaney]

Not that I'm gonna give you any ideas. I have a. But, like, all those bands you just mentioned, why don't they do, like, a tour? Even if it's just, like, just getting together? I mean, I. We're like, oh, my God. Tribe Called Quest. I love Tribe Called Quest. Like, you know, just.

[John Forte]

There's certainly a renaissance happening right now.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah, right.

[John Forte]

I feel, you know, people are going back out on the road.

[Leslie Heaney]

I know, because we're all turning 50 and we're like, oh, wait, we want to get. You know, you want to feel cool again. Exactly. Where is everybody? Let's get the band back together.

[John Forte]

Let's get the band back together.

[Leslie Heaney]

Literally and figuratively.

[John Forte]

But again, right? So being in the room or being on tour together would also foster opportunities for us to. We were in Nashville when that opportunity came through, and so we booked a room, and the next thing you know, we have this beautiful collaborative effort for Rumble in the Jungle, which we premiered at Radio City Music Hall. But again, these are, like, so cool, seminal spaces. And, you know, we're kids. We're kids in these. In these magnificent.

[Leslie Heaney]

Which is a lot. My husband have three children. Our daughter's 18, and she's a wonderful kid. But I think about how she would manage. Right. Kind of like the fame and the. I mean, it's a lot for 20, you know, again, I was thrilled that I was finally legal. I was definitely doing a legal keg stand somewhere. You were nominated for a Grammy, and we're, like, traveling all over the country and.

[John Forte]

And I am grateful that we didn't have phones. I know that we didn't preserve those moments the way that they can be now. I'm grateful that they're memories rather than videos.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah, well, I mean, we're gonna talk about that when the microphones go dark. Just earmuffs. I mean, I guess we wearing earmuffs right now, but it was, you know. Yeah.

[John Forte]

Oh. So again, it was all to say, yes, it was a lot. But our sort of stars and icons of this era, I think to myself, oh, I don't know if I could carry that much awareness of public. Right where you are, opinion and interjection, and, yeah, it's a lot.

[Leslie Heaney]

So then you are Ewan Wyclef. I want to call him Clef. He hasn't given me permission, obviously, but I call him Clef. But you guys then collaborate on your debut album, Poli Sci. Were they all in the basement or was that you and Clef, or who was involved with that?

[John Forte]

And great question. And I haven't really unpacked this publicly, so this is why you get the good. There was a tacit expectation that when I received my solo deal, Clef would. He would not just executive produce it, but he would be the creative vision behind it. And him, you know, maybe pras a little bit, but this was really like, Clef was going to big brother me right through it, through my solo debut. But I raised my hand pretty quickly, and I was just like, oh, man, you know what? I have a bunch of ideas of my own. I'm going to go to Conshohocken, Pennsylvania, which is where our record company had a studio, and I'm going to go out there for a few weeks. And again, it wasn't like I'd done pre production, but I wanted to take reins of what I was going to do, even though I Didn't necessarily want to.

[Leslie Heaney]

Because you wanted to make it your own. And by the way, I've heard about these kind of sojourn recording studios, like, in the. Right. Where they have them in, like, really unique places.

[John Forte]

Well, you don't want to be distracted.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right, Right.

[John Forte]

And so whether you're going out to rehearse, whether you're going out to write, I didn't want to be in an environment where you knew that there was something happening in the town every night.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right.

[John Forte]

Or that, you know, you wanted. I just didn't want the distractions. So I wanted isolation.

[Leslie Heaney]

It's like Jimmy Khan in Misery. You're like, in the cabin, Right. You're writing the thing.

[John Forte]

I was writing the thing. I was writing the thing in the cabin. In the cabin in Conshohocken. And, you know, that said, I remember coming back and playing a bunch of things for Clef and checking in with him throughout the process. And he would ultimately produce my first single, which was. He sampled Nena 99 luftballoons.

[Leslie Heaney]

Oh, yeah. Oh, my God.

[John Forte]

Right? So he sampled that. And I remember I walked into his studio and he was at the Hit factory at the time. He had a room there. Very impressive room. Right. So, like, when he presented ideas, it was, you know, he was blowing you away. Right. So he played the track, and I was just like, oh, man, this is, like, really poppy. But it felt like a downstream sort of experience, and we went with it. And ultimately that became the first single off of Poli Sci. And so, you know, he's in the video. Prize is in the video. You know, we went out to la.

[Leslie Heaney]

And MTV is still.

[John Forte]

MTV is a thing. We have support from mtv, bet. We have support from them. I am being positioned to do well, right. In the wake of having already sort of done well again. By being in the room.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[John Forte]

And so.

[Leslie Heaney]

No, by you being in the room.

[John Forte]

Yes.

[Leslie Heaney]

I could be in the room, too. I could be in the room, too, John. And I wouldn't have again.

[John Forte]

And I did the work. Right. I wasn't just in the room, but it was like being in the room gave me the opportunity to do the work. And so we put this solo album out, and we have major label support. And. And, you know, I go around and I do this nationwide tour. There's a young group by the name of Destiny's Child that opens up for me.

[Leslie Heaney]

Stop it. By the way, I wish you could see John's face. Cause I know there's some behind the music and some of those people what we're not gonna say anything bad about Bay and I. He didn't, he didn't, he didn't at all. But I.

[John Forte]

But just to give the audience a little bit of perspective, you know, this is 1998 and it's just like, all right, Sony sends us out on the road with our own tour bus. I mean, I've got brand new, beautiful tour bus. It's a college tour now by the.

[Leslie Heaney]

Way, what's in a tour bus? You've got. Is there a bedroom? There are kitchenette, bedrooms, More than that.

[John Forte]

No, no, they're bunk beds. There's a sort of living room, bedroom area in the back.

[Leslie Heaney]

Okay. Which is for you.

[John Forte]

Yes, yes.

[Leslie Heaney]

I love this. I love this.

[John Forte]

There's definitely kitchenette area. It's. It's pretty self contained restaurant.

[Leslie Heaney]

You're like 2022.

[John Forte]

Yes. Yeah.

[Leslie Heaney]

I mean, so Destiny Child's opening for you, you're going on tour. Then what happens?

[John Forte]

The album comes out to critical acclaim, but commercial disappointment. What does that mean? It means that I think I sold 79,000 copies.

[Leslie Heaney]

That seems pretty incredible to me. But I understand, but partially. Is that because you're coming off of the score? I think that's correct.

[John Forte]

This is because we just sold 11 million albums with the score. And then wyclef just sold 3 million albums with his debut and then Pras just did a million with Ghetto Superstar.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right.

[John Forte]

And well, Lauren was poised to do what she was doing with Miseducation. But you know, and so I was in the middle and expectations were high. But it didn't happen. It didn't happen for me. And I did not take that well. I thought that everyone failed me. I thought management failed me. I thought everyone at the record company failed me. I thought everyone at the studios failed me. I thought every college promoter failed me. I thought everybody DJ failed me. The world failed me. And that was my attitude. Why? Because I'd only known success professionally.

[Leslie Heaney]

And you. Not that this is someone that should be a role model for every. But I think it was, it might have even been on a reel on Instagram. And I think it was Arnold Schwarzenegger. But I think what he was saying was something to the effect of you don't learn from your successes, you learn from your failures. And so at a young age when you have that great success. Right. It's hard. Not that your album was a failure by any means, but when you have those difficult moments, it's harder, I think have it following such a great success. Right.

[John Forte]

I didn't know how to handle.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[John Forte]

And it Felt like. I felt like an abject failure. It didn't feel like, you know, I charted. I think I came out. I think when my album came out, it was 15th on, you know, rap. Rap sales for the week, which was not inconsequential, but for me.

[Leslie Heaney]

I know, I think. But it's because of the people that you were in the basement with. Right. Who were having their moments with their albums. And your album, by any other measure, would have been a great success for a debut album, but. So you had this disappointment and then you ended up having an experience that kind of took you in a different direction.

[John Forte]

Well, sure. You know, it was after I blamed everyone for my failure that Sony ultimately released me from my contract. Oh, you think we failed you? Well, fine, go at it. You know, you're free to go. And this coincided with me meeting an individual. Didn't happen over the course of two weeks. It probably our relationship. This is somebody that I knew. I'd known this guy for 18 months, a couple of years, just from the scene, being out and about and so forth and so on. And it coincided with him giving me an opportunity to. Again, to liaise for me to be an independent. And this is how I'm framing it for myself. Right, right. So I could be an independent operator, I could be entrepreneurial. I could have one foot in nefarious activities without being wholly aware and. Or responsible. I could turn. I could turn a blind eye to it. By doing what? By introducing this guy to couriers, people that I've just known in my personal network over the years who might be interested in making money, taking trips.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right. But you also, I mean, we talked about. You mentioned those big clubs that hold 10,000 people back in the day, and it wouldn't be uncommon, I mean, for people at those clubs to be using the deliveries that you're helping to facilitate. Right. So it's sort of normalized. Right. I mean, as you're saying, as you said you were. How you were thinking about it is that you liaising and it just sort of. That would seem like a normal transition or progression because you had been doing that with music. Right.

[John Forte]

That's certainly how I compartmentalized. That's how I justified it. Right, yeah, that's what I told myself for sure.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[John Forte]

Yeah. I'm just introducing people to other people.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[John Forte]

That's what I'm doing. And I'm then using the proceeds from that to make my music, to make the music that I've always wanted to make, to make the music that will finally make the Difference that will fi. You know, this is.

[Leslie Heaney]

I have heard that there have been other, you know, great artists, hip hop artists, who have done a similar thing at some time. Correct. To help fund their music. Right. During.

[John Forte]

I was. I certainly wasn't a pioneer. There were other models. There were other folks who were doing it. Again, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't the standard, but there were certainly examples out there of folks who were independent artists and who were finding their way without major or minor record companies.

[Leslie Heaney]

So you have that moment, right, where you. You go to Newark Airport, you pick up a briefcase, you.

[John Forte]

No, you know what I was picking up. I was picking up two of the couriers.

[Leslie Heaney]

Oh, the couriers. Oh, I thought you were picking up actual.

[John Forte]

No. Okay, so what happened was two couriers went on a trip where they thought they were supposed to get a large amount of money and they were going to fly money from point A to point B. But when they showed up, there wasn't money there. There were drugs there instead.

[Leslie Heaney]

Okay.

[John Forte]

And so the couriers had the option, you end the trip here or you take this instead and then you get paid for it.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right, right. So they took that.

[John Forte]

So they. So they. So they took the drugs instead. And they were busted almost immediately once they hit the border town.

[Leslie Heaney]

Is this in Texas?

[John Forte]

This is in Texas. And that's. And they cooperated almost immediately and began calling me. And there was a series.

[Leslie Heaney]

I see. So, like, sort of like entrapment.

[John Forte]

It's a sting.

[Leslie Heaney]

It's a sting.

[John Forte]

Right. Well, you know, who is this going to. Now, keep in mind, this was the first of its kind because. And, you know, we testified, or I testified as much, ultimately, the way that this thing worked for me was because I was hands off when these calls happened. And then they connected me to, you know, to the good, so to speak. This was certainly the first time that it ever happened because they never brought anything to me. They were couriers working for this guy.

[Leslie Heaney]

I am shocked, John. I didn't realize that you actually never had hands on.

[John Forte]

Ever, ever. And so with the. So with the control, you know, sting, so to speak, they ultimately called and was like, hey, you know, we're coming into Newark, and so you have to come and get us. And I was like, what? Like, what do you mean, I have to come and get you?

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah, how about a yellow taxi there?

[John Forte]

Right? And so, you know, I mean, it was. It was all recorded as much. And so I ultimately said, all right, I'll come and get you.

[Leslie Heaney]

And so just by you picking them up. But but that was the. I mean, I understand you were having phone calls saying, like, okay, this is going to go to this person or whatever.

[John Forte]

So I go to pick them up in Newark Airport, and I see them on the curb, and, John, so good to see you. It's so good to see you. Welcome home. And that's when. Freeze, freeze. And, you know, law enforcement, federal, local, state, they just hop out. And, you know, oh, my God.

[Leslie Heaney]

It's just.

[John Forte]

I remember time slowing down. It's like a movie. And. And they arrested us all. And I'm thinking it's very discombobulated, disorienting. And the girls were crying, John, what's going on? What's happening? I was like, I don't know. I don't know. And they arrested us all.

[Leslie Heaney]

Oh, so you had friends in the car with you, and they also. Oh, the girls or the couriers?

[John Forte]

They arrested the couriers. Right.

[Leslie Heaney]

Oh, but the couriers didn't know that they were being part of the setup.

[John Forte]

They did, but they didn't want me to know.

[Leslie Heaney]

Oh, my gosh.

[John Forte]

All right. So they wanted me to. Or everyone wanted. I couldn't be in on it. I couldn't know that this was a controlled delivery or that the girls were cooperating with law. I couldn't know that. And they were keeping me in the dark as much as they could, you know, trying to question me and interrogate me. And so, yeah, I got arrested.

[Leslie Heaney]

So you get arrested, and somehow Ben Taylor's cousin was at Exeter with you?

[John Forte]

Mm.

[Leslie Heaney]

Were they helping you with your navigating your legal defense?

[John Forte]

Almost immediately. But not because of my relationship to Ben's cousin Liz.

[Leslie Heaney]

Okay.

[John Forte]

Who. Yes, we went to. We were at. We were at Exeter together for all four years, and we were in freshman math together. I still see Liz to this day on the Vineyard. But I cultivated my relationship with Ben separately.

[Leslie Heaney]

Okay.

[John Forte]

Because a friend of ours, a mutual friend of ours from the industry, Karen Rackman, in 1997 or something like that, sent me Ben's demo tape and knew that I was working on Poli Sci, and. And so sent Ben an advanced copy of Polycyth. So Ben and I, we met.

[Leslie Heaney]

So he was making music back then, too.

[John Forte]

Okay, he was making beautiful music. Absolutely. And I didn't listen to his demo tape for weeks until I did. And I remember I couldn't get past the first song. And I called Karen, and I'm like, who is this guy? I love this song. And she's like, oh, it's Ben. And he's in New York, and You guys should connect.

[Leslie Heaney]

And so was he your first phone call?

[John Forte]

Yeah, it was Ben.

[Leslie Heaney]

It was Ben. And you said, I need help. I need a lawyer. You gotta help me. Actually, my husband told me that the reason that he married me was he knew that I could help get him out of prison if he was ever, like, arrested. Just. Who's the person that you call right to? Like, I need to figure out how to get out of or what the next step is. And so that call for you was Ben.

[John Forte]

You know how your father helped me.

[Leslie Heaney]

I do, I do. I do. But. So tell me. So, Ben. Well, we're gonna talk about that. So Ben. Ben helps you. You get a lawyer, right?

[John Forte]

No. You know who helped me get my lawyer was another Exeter friend, my friend Camilla. My lawyer was a San Francisco hippie dippy attorney named Tony Serra, whose brother is Richard Serra. And Tony Serra had this long, white ponytail represented, you know, Hell's Angels and Black Panther.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah, just the white ponytail. Visual. I feel like I can see him in the courtroom, and I'm. When you just mentioned that and, you.

[John Forte]

Know, like, Native American jewelry, like, just striking presence in a forest. I remember walking in the courtroom with him in Houston. And again.

[Leslie Heaney]

Oh, so this is Texas.

[John Forte]

This is Texas because that's where the case originated. Because that's. That's where they began cooperating.

[Leslie Heaney]

So it wasn't New Jersey based on.

[John Forte]

And we certainly tried for change of venue.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[John Forte]

But no, Texas wanted it. Texas did not want to let us go, and they didn't. So we walked into a courtroom in Houston, Texas. Tony Cerra with his long white ponytail and me at the time with back full of dreads, you know, down to my butt. All to say that, you know, the jury of our peers.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm with you. I'm totally with you on that.

[John Forte]

More alien.

[Leslie Heaney]

Then who was prosecuting the case? Because if it's crossing state lines, is it then become a federal.

[John Forte]

It was federal.

[Leslie Heaney]

It was federal. Yes. So they offer you a plea. And so. Or. Tell me about that.

[John Forte]

I mean, see, this is why we're gonna need to do a part two.

[Leslie Heaney]

We are gonna need to do a part two, because I, Jess, is like, I've got a. I've got my. I got no water and got my makeup on, and.

[John Forte]

Yeah, there's still more to tell.

[Leslie Heaney]

Oh, my God.

[John Forte]

You know, so the couriers were not the only ones who were testifying against me a couple of weeks later, because this shipment never made it. The guy who was the guy who actually employed the couriers he made a risky move in another. I think he was in Atlanta or something like that, because he lost his shipment. And so he ended up making a bad deal and getting apprehended and then connecting himself to this case as the guy. And so he ultimately, as the kingpin, testified against me. And then the couriers who were supposedly underneath me within the food chain, they testified against me as well. So, you know, here I am again, liaising. Right. Like I'm in the middle between the kingpin and the character.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right. And they're all. And they're all copying, selling you out.

[John Forte]

They're all cooperating so that they get leniency.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right. A lighter sentence. But you're not the big fish in that. In that business.

[John Forte]

But it didn't matter because I was cooperating and I did have a name.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right. I know that is interesting, but I think in a way that would be helpful to you and not a hindrance to you, but it sounds like it definitely wasn't. So what did the couriers. What were their plea deals and what was the.

[John Forte]

They pled guilty and they ended up getting six months.

[Leslie Heaney]

Wow.

[John Forte]

And they didn't have to do any time. It was some sort of drug court.

[Leslie Heaney]

That allowed them to community service or probation or something. Yeah.

[John Forte]

Yes.

[Leslie Heaney]

And what about the actual dealer?

[John Forte]

Yeah, he ended up getting, I think, a five year sentence. Oh. But that was only after. Like they were going to let him go because he was. He was. He was cooperating with them on not only my case, but with other cases and.

[Leslie Heaney]

I see.

[John Forte]

And. But he absconded and then they ultimately caught up with him and that's when he had only gotten five years after he ran away. So I don't know. They were willing and dealing with him until he. Until he took off, and then they ended up giving him five years. I was found guilty in that court of law and I was sentenced to 168 months in federal prison. 14 years. Yeah.

[Leslie Heaney]

Did you see my mind, you can see the math on that was not my strength, but I knew. And those were the mandatory guidelines.

[John Forte]

Right. Yeah, yeah. Although my judge.

[Leslie Heaney]

Did the judge have any.

[John Forte]

He did. He did. And at one point he. He mentioned downward departing based on me being first time nonviolent.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah, yeah.

[John Forte]

And so leaning towards it, but the federal prosecutor, she objected to that. And so he said that his hands were tied and then issued me that sentence, which just like you, I had to do the math as well because they issue guideline ranges in months rather than years. So they make you. They make you calculate it's kind of cruel and unusual in an episode.

[Leslie Heaney]

So I mean, in that moment I just I is your mom there? Is your sister there? Everyone, everyone's there. Ben Taylor's there, Everyone's there. What was your thinking at that moment? Or that was it? Also, did time slow down?

[John Forte]

Sure, it certainly did. Tony gave me a big hug and he told me to be strong and he said, this is not over. It doesn't end here. And then they took me away.

[Leslie Heaney]

That brings us to the end of part one of this episode with the amazing John Forte. I hope you'll tune in next week for part two and as always, thank you all for listening. If you enjoy the show, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts and follow us on Instagram at The Interview with Leslie A new podcast is released every Wednesday. Until then, this is Leslie Heaney and don't forget to join the interview.