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- [00:05]
Leslie Heaney
Hello everyone, this is Leslie and you're listening to the interview with Leslie Heaney. I am thrilled to be back with part two of my conversation with the incredibly talented Grammy nominated recording artist, songwriter, activist and filmmaker, John Forte. In part one, John and I talked about his incredible life leading up to his production of the Fugees multi platinum record, the Score. Part one ended with John's arrest at Newark Airport following a drug sting operation. We pick up here in part two, where John and I talk about his court case, his time in prison, the commutation of his sentence by President George W. Bush, and most importantly, about the amazing life, family and career John has built since then. John's story is one of promise, hope, redemption and love. John is an inspiration to me and I think should be an inspiration to all of us. So with that, here's John Forte. I was just listening to our, where we left off on part one, and you know, it's, it's hard for us to pick up there because I. One of the things you said was it was just as you were being sentenced and you said, and they took me away, actually took my breath away hearing you say that. And so I'm taking you back there. Like, maybe not there, you know, exactly, but that time period you've been sentenced, your lawyer says to you, like, this isn't the end of the fight. And then at that point, I think you had, you know, friends, colleagues kind of rally around you to help you. Right, right. During that part of the appeal, I know we talked about your relationship with Ben Taylor and Carly Simon, but you were sentenced and then what happened?
- [01:58]
John Forte
So I began my sentence in where, where I lost child, which was Houston, Texas. And I was immediately taken into custody there. Although, you know, that's not always the case. Sometimes you can kind of raise your hand and say, hey, I'd like to get my affairs in order. Can I, can I, can I report to prison at a later date? Right. I did not have that option. They took me into custody immediately. Even though that wasn't my home jurisdiction, that was where I was going to begin my sentence. And so it took me a number of months while I was in the Houston Federal Detention center, adjusting and adapting and figuring out what was next and essentially waiting to get closer to home because the Federal Bureau of Prisons had, and I don't know if they still do have, but they had at that time a policy in place where prisoners were supposed to be within 500 miles of their home address. So they were supposed to be relatively local, actually close than 500 miles. I'm so sorry. But it was, but it was supposed to be a matter of convenience, right? Like you were supposed to be close enough so that your family could see you, even if that meant, you know, within a five hour drive. That was supposedly close enough, but you weren't supposed to be, you know, across the country, right? Necessarily. And so, but remind me again.
- [03:36]
Leslie Heaney
I don't. But you were the jurisdiction. There was jurisdiction in Houston because that's where the flight originated. Or why was Texas involved? Remind me again.
- [03:47]
John Forte
Yes, because that's where the couriers were initially caught, apprehended, and began working with the authorities to build a case.
- [03:54]
Leslie Heaney
Was it the FBI?
- [03:55]
John Forte
It was FBI, dea, local state law enforcement. It was, it was coordinated.
- [04:04]
Leslie Heaney
I mean, it seems like it's a, you know, that's a lot, it's a lot of manpower to sort of, you know, this is not. Anyway, I guess they didn't have other, you know, more important things to focus on at the time. And so you're, you then start the process of trying to get moved to a different location before you even.
- [04:24]
John Forte
And I smile because I remember going through the prison handbook thinking, oh, this is kind of like find a college, you know, you're looking for, you're looking for facilities that, that have, that have certain programs. And well, what. How can I make the most from this? And well, where's this facility located? Is it in the mountains? Is it in some, you know, and so you're, you're going through, how long has it been around? And so I went through.
- [04:53]
Leslie Heaney
And what now, what to that. What, what were you looking for? Were you looking for?
- [04:58]
John Forte
I had no idea, I had no idea what I was looking for. I was looking for residents. I was looking for proximity.
- [05:04]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [05:06]
John Forte
And whatever that meant. And so in fact, when I went through the handbook, there was one facility that used to be a monastery in western Pennsylvania. And I thought to myself, huh, well that's gotta have some good, some good energetic vibes, right? A place that wasn't constructed with the intention of, of incarcerating folks. That to me felt like, well, if I have to be in a place like this, I pick that place. And so that was my first choice. And that was FCI Loretto in Loretto, Pennsylvania. Not to be confused with Laredo.
- [05:51]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [05:52]
John Forte
Which is Texas. Correct.
- [05:53]
Leslie Heaney
But you were. So you ed'd the Pennsylvania place. That was your first pick. And then, and did you get it?
- [06:02]
John Forte
I did, I did. And I thought it was going to be a straight shot. I thought when they called my name for me to transfer to my new facility, which is going to be my designated facility for the foreseeable future, that I'd get there in a couple of days. Unbeknownst to me, it was a very circuitous, lengthy process. It took me maybe three months to get there once I was in transit. And that was sending me through different facilities and, you know, so called Con Air. Right. Like, like, like Nicholas Cage and you know, being on the tarmac literally with folks who were getting on a plane for the first time. Right. But we were shackled at the ankles and the wrists.
- [06:47]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, stop it. So you, so you. Those designated flights, I are they, they do exist like that? I did not know that. Now was everyone going to different, different facilities?
- [06:59]
John Forte
Some people were going out west, some people were going to different security clearances as well. Some people were going to minimum security institutions, some people going to supermaxes. And so, you know, you're just surrounded by canines and guns and. Yeah, it's, it's intense. Yeah, I mean, from there, I think, I mean, I ended up going to Atlanta, United States Penitentiary, Lewisburg, United States Penitentiary, Brooklyn, mdc.
- [07:33]
Leslie Heaney
Wait, so you were working or what kind of your. They stopped you along the way?
- [07:37]
John Forte
Okay, Whatever was convenient and you know, I guess the grand scheme of their travels in order to get us to where we needed to get to, which was rarely a straight, a direct flight.
- [07:51]
Leslie Heaney
So once you got there, then you're like, okay, now I'm at the place that I, you know, at a better place. Proximity. You felt like. It felt better because it had, you know, a history that was, you know.
- [08:03]
John Forte
Yes, and, and there's stability. Right. So you're there, you. For the foreseeable future and you can kind of lean into the experience and you can do what's called programming, right? Like you can program and I think most importantly, you can fight your case. Right? Like you, you're, you're, you're in a place where you have access to the law library and therefore, or presumably you know, the telephones at least for a few minutes a day. So you can, you can set up shop and start to fight. And that's what I, that's what I did initially.
- [08:38]
Leslie Heaney
Now how did that work? So you, so you have access to the library. You said you were limited to a certain number of calls a day, a certain amount of time a day. And, and you would have to figure out how to allocate that right between talking to your attorney and talking to your family. How did you manage that? And what, what was that like On a day to day basis, it was stressful.
- [08:57]
John Forte
Everyone received 300 minutes a month. We were in a facility where maybe there were eight phones and 300, you know, so called residents waiting there to use those phones. And so in the beginning of the month they're usually those long lines. And then towards the middle of the month they get smaller and smaller. And at the end of the month, I mean, there are just no lines because no one has minutes. Right. It does. Your mind in. It really does. It's different.
- [09:27]
Leslie Heaney
And you know, back then too, you know, now you could probably, I don't know, I don't know if inmates have access to computers where they could zoom with. Zoom with their lawyer. Right.
- [09:37]
John Forte
Well, I don't know about zoom, but I mean, even emailing, when that, when that came through, that, that came through shortly before, I can't. But that was a game changer, right, to be able to send instant correspondence rather than waiting three days for your letter to arrive, maybe more, and then another three days for the mail to come back. It was, yeah, it was a lot of waiting.
- [09:58]
Leslie Heaney
So you then get, you're immediately in touch with your attorney and like, how do we go about appealing it? It was the focus to appeal the set this sentence, the length of the sentence.
- [10:07]
John Forte
Yes, yes. And we went through, and we went through the appellate process and it was familiarizing myself with what that was. And you know, you have your direct appeal, you have your writ of cert, you have your 2255. And I think you go to, you go to the highest court and then once that's it. And that's it. But you have your, you have that process and you learn about it. And you know, no one was going to fight for my freedom the way that I was. Right. And so me going to the law library was essential. And just remembering the details of my case and trying to remind my representation of the facts and our merits and.
- [10:51]
Leslie Heaney
Just comparing your sentence to the sentence of the couriers themselves. Right. I mean, I don't know if that was any. A fruitful area for them to kind of explore, you know, And I think that does happen, right, where people do plea deals. But just to see what you got versus what they got is really shocking. And so when you were unsuccessful, you were unsuccessful then, you know, in those appeals. Right. And is that the time that you sort of said, okay, we have to take a different approach and the best way to do that is to try to pursue having the sentence commuted? Right, yes.
- [11:25]
John Forte
And that, and that to me felt like, I mean, that was the longest shot. So that coincided with me also deciding to go back to school because one of my mentors while I was away was Professor Charles Ogletree, who had been. I was in contact with. For the first couple of years of my incarceration. And. But I remember when I lost.
- [11:47]
Leslie Heaney
Was he a professor at nyu? Is he at nyu? Professor at Harvard.
- [11:50]
John Forte
At Harvard.
- [11:51]
Leslie Heaney
Harvard, okay.
- [11:52]
John Forte
And he was connected to President Obama as well. But Tree was a force and an incredible mentor to me and a friend, and he encouraged me to apply to Harvard, and I did. And I remember the day when the interviewer came to interview me for my. Stop it. It was. It was on a regular visit. You know, I got dressed up and they called me out to the visitor room, and it was like half. Half the prison knew what I was doing, right? And so I'm walking out there and they give me high fives and wishing me, wishing me luck. And as you can imagine, you know, walking in, tell us what makes you a Harvard major?
- [12:40]
Leslie Heaney
You know, but by the way, I mean, how awesome is it that you got that you. That they came, that you got an interview, you know, that you write? I mean, what was that like? So the guy. So the guy or the gal, I mean, whoever was coming to interview from Harvard, they. They sent their local rep, right, their Pennsylvania rep, to come meet you, and you were applying to transfer. Was that the idea, like, to transfer to Harvard or.
- [13:06]
John Forte
No, I was. I was. I was applying to. To basically finish my undergrad. My undergraduate degree, right? Yes, correct.
- [13:13]
Leslie Heaney
Yes. From nyu, because you started.
- [13:15]
John Forte
Correct, exactly.
- [13:16]
Leslie Heaney
So they ask you, like, so tell me about yourself or would you.
- [13:20]
John Forte
Yeah, right. I mean, it was, you know, I think it was. There weren't any sort of surprise questions given. Given the circumstances of, you know, our environment or our interview environment. But, you know, the same nerves were in place, and it obviously felt like there was so much at stake. And so the pressure. The pressure was there for me. I remember just waiting, you know, a couple. Few weeks afterwards, just waiting to hear. Waiting to hear and waiting to hear. And finally I received my letter, which was, you know, thank you for your application. We regret to inform you, blah, blah. So I was rejected. And I remember calling up tree and saying, see, like I told you. So, like, why did I go through. Why did I go through this exercise only to get shot down? And he says, what you didn't know or what you don't know, what's not in that letter is what you know was told to me. He said what was told to you? And he said, well, if you can get into another program that they deem has the sort of equivalence and merits, whatever that means, then they would consider transferring me in. Which wasn't a win by any stretch of the imagination, but it wasn't an outright no and it still preserved some hope that I was still somehow the possible candidate. And so I've applied to two more schools or I was getting ready to apply to two more schools. One was the University of South Africa where Nelson Mandela received, you know, his studying when, when he was away because they offered a correspondence program and then the London School of Economics.
- [14:57]
Leslie Heaney
What was your thinking in even doing that at that time?
- [15:02]
John Forte
Meaning needing for. I needed something to show for the time that I was going to spend.
- [15:09]
Leslie Heaney
That's what I was, you were thinking about, right, the next step. Like I, and, but, but practically and logistically would you have been able to, would they, was there a remote Harvard option? Like how would you have been able to execute? Or just, you would kind of just have that? It was really the hope of it. Right.
- [15:27]
John Forte
And it was the hope. And also it was unprecedented. We were going to pursue our chances until someone said no. Right? We were going to, we were going to keep, we're going to keep looking, we're going to keep hoping and ultimately do more than just hope, but to keep doing until someone said no, you can't do that. And I remember going to my so called counselor in the prison at the time, you know, after getting rejected from Harvard, saying, all right, well, you know, I got reinvigorated hoping, so I'm going to apply to the London School of Economics. And she looked at me and she said, well, you know, we've got to, there's a, there's a technical repair course that the, that the local college offers that we have a partnership with. Whatever it was, it was something that was, that felt like low hanging fruit that folks had access to that. She said, well, you know, why, why are you, why are you doing this when we can just, we can just keep it simpler. And I said, well, with all due respect, is that the same advice that you would give your child?
- [16:33]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [16:34]
John Forte
And she could have, you know, she heard me out and she saw, she grit and beared and all right, well let's go through with this. And yet a couple of months later, LSE said yes. And so it was admitted in the LSE for my undergrad in politics and international relations and I began finishing my studies there. I ended up writing for their, their alumni magazine as well.
- [17:01]
Leslie Heaney
Stop it. So how did you so you. You get the acceptance letter, right? You must have been like, this is now where they. They accept you, and then they send you the curriculum and the book or how are you going to.
- [17:13]
John Forte
They. They have. They have. They have a distance learning program in place. And so unlike my peer group, who had access to, you know each other, right, by either study groups or computers, I did not. I was, you know, off on my own. But I did have a course guide. I had a curriculum that was designed particularly for distance learning and independent learning. But what I did almost immediately was I formed a study group inside the prison. And by this time, I was at Fort Dixon in New Jersey because there were other guys around me who were interested in what I was interested in, but didn't necessarily go through the process. And so I had a weekly study group that we worked through. We worked through the curriculum together. Wait, that is, as you can imagine, just the dialogue, right? Like, that just happens in the meth hall. And then you're walking around the facility, and the stuff that we were talking about was. It was inspiring. And, you know, global events, macro and micro. Right. And connecting the dots. It was really cool.
- [18:24]
Leslie Heaney
But you were the student, and then you also became the teacher. Right. You're actually sharing the curriculum with them that you're getting from the London School. Right. Is that what's happened?
- [18:34]
John Forte
Yes.
- [18:34]
Leslie Heaney
That must have been so rewarding for you too, right? To have that kind of broader. That broader purpose. Right. To have that impact. There's a program called the Bard Prison Initiative. Are you familiar with it? And I've got a friend that's really involved with it, and I've gone to some of their events and heard was the director speak and then former inmates speak who now have their degree, are either involved with the program or out in the world doing great things. And it's just so I would think, just having exactly what you're talking about. Right. You're having that. The dialogue in the mess hall. Having that sense of, like, purpose and hope outside of what's the fall. The four walls that are around you has to be a real lifeline. Right. I would think when you're in that.
- [19:20]
John Forte
Those circumstances, 100%, you know, I mean, it does. That thing that I'll always remember, you know, coming from George W. Bush, ironically, coincidentally enough. Right. It defies the soft bigotry of low expectations.
- [19:35]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. Yep.
- [19:37]
John Forte
And that's. That was always, you know, a reminder of time well spent.
- [19:47]
Leslie Heaney
So you're pursuing that, and at the same time, you're pursuing your. Now that the Appeal is. Process has sort of been exhausted. You're like, okay, we're going to work on the sentence commuting. You've got. I love this part of the story because I just love sort of the unlikely bedfellows, particularly in today's political environment, that Carly Simon and Orrin Hatch are friends and were in a. I guess in a band or. Explain to me how that. Am I wrong? I think I'm right about that there. He played in the band and.
- [20:17]
John Forte
Well, they both had their respective bands, as it were. Yeah, yeah.
- [20:27]
Leslie Heaney
I was gonna say Carly probably didn't need to be jamming with Orin. I probably, you know, different.
- [20:30]
John Forte
Although, Although, you know, sets. They actually did jam. I mean, they, they, they, they had, they had some moments of creative exchange. As far as I know. I wasn't in the room. Um, but I know that, that Senator Hatch extended the, the invitation and he was a, he was, he was a big lover of music. Um, and he for. And he was a writer.
- [20:57]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, I didn't know that. No, I was going to say he was a Republican senator from Utah. And I think that's how Carly and Orin had that connect, obviously, is through music, not through music.
- [21:10]
John Forte
That's right.
- [21:11]
Leslie Heaney
Sharing political perspectives. But Carly knows your story. She's a close friend. Tell me what happened next there. Did she reach out to Orrin Hatch to tell him your story or how did that kind of evolve?
- [21:24]
John Forte
She met senator hatch in D.C. i'm pretty sure she was promoting a new album at the time and was touring and found herself in D.C. and was able to meet with Senator Hatch in his office and they got the ball rolling. Senator Hatch wrote me shortly thereafter. That letter is framed on my mother's wall in New Jersey right now. And it was my first official correspondence from him, certainly not my last, but it was him letting me know that he knew about my situation and that I was remembered and that I shouldn't lose hope. I'm pretty sure he alluded to something about music telling me to, to, you know, to keep doing what I, what I did in some shape, form or fashion. He was a very, very positive.
- [22:21]
Leslie Heaney
I mean, what was that like, getting that. I mean, you.
- [22:24]
John Forte
It was surreal because, you know, it was a Republican administration at the time and there was some. I had some support from Democratic senators and congressmen, but Senator Hatch was kind of the first person from the so called other side to align himself with my cause very, very publicly. In fact, it made a difference.
- [22:49]
Leslie Heaney
How did he. When you say publicly, what public efforts was Carly making or Were you making, to the extent that you could at that time around it, who were you appealing to? I mean, obviously with the sentence commuting for people who don't know, kind of how that works with presidents is when they leave office, they are allowed to, you know, commute sentences for people that they feel are, that are unfair. Am I summarizing that? Well, maybe that's too basic, but no.
- [23:17]
John Forte
No, I think that, I think that's, that's about it. You know, the one other thing that I'll say is I had a, you know, in addition to advocates like Carly and Senator Hatch, I had a pardon attorney as well, Margaret Colgate Love, who specialized in the field. Right. And so that was her area of expertise. And so to your point about, you know, what could have been done publicly, it was, you know, part of her, part of her abilities was to have a public facing, some public facing initiative. And so she would engage with the press to get some attention to notable cases with that within her, within her purview. Right. That she wanted to, wanted to gain public favor. And so, and so she would reach out to certain members of the press and let them know about, hey, these are the circumstances of the case and to put it out there while we were simultaneously pursuing what the official depth of the, of the commutation process. So to your earlier question, you know, well, what was being done public? I do remember there being some newspaper articles. There was definitely higher profile stuff, but that was, I think earlier on, like Rolling Stone, Boston Globe, where you are, you know, you're trying to make your case publicly.
- [24:52]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [24:52]
John Forte
Yes.
- [24:54]
Leslie Heaney
And so Hatch would allow himself to be interviewed for those. Or he was. He was.
- [24:58]
John Forte
I believe so. And again, I want the fact checkers to call me on this if that's not the case because we should probably be able to find it relatively easy. But I recall him at least in one article offering public support for me in my case.
- [25:18]
Leslie Heaney
But I think the, when you were talking about sort of getting kind of having that outreach and help from, quote, the other side or the perception of the other side. Right. You know, I think when anyone hears your story and as you said, you made a mistake. Right. But there's a, there should be a, the consequence. Right. Or the, quote, punishment should be equivalent. Right. To, you know, to that. Right. And I think anyone who hears about your story would see that this real injustice happened here. And I think that's why, you know, you were. And probably in addition to, I'm assuming when you go through the commutation process, they're also asking, like, what are you doing now? Like. Or what do you plan to do when you're. When you are released? And, you know, all those things anyway. You're just such a compelling person that I. People would see that that was the right. The right thing. The right thing. In fact, I mean, even when it happened, you'd served seven years. Right. By the time. But I guess I'm jumping ahead. I mean, I.
- [26:24]
John Forte
Not too far. We're closer. We're closer than we were at this point.
- [26:31]
Leslie Heaney
But my husband Andrew, and I heard your story from a friend who had come over to our apartment, and she was working on this project with you and was just telling your story. And Andrew said, oh, my gosh. I didn't know that any of this had happened or maybe had heard something, but didn't realize, you know, anything significantly about what happened and decided to, you know, wanted to get in touch and started, you know, reaching out. You guys started. Started writing letters. And then Mandy, our mutual friend, was also, I think, trying to be helpful. And. And so I think your. Your friends were very committed to helping this process. Right.
- [27:11]
John Forte
And, you know, I'm. I am moved tears quite often, especially recently. I spent so many years never shedding a tear that I think I've got more than my. More than my fair share. Like, I cry a lot. I cry easily. I went fishing this morning before jumping on this call with you, and it was going out into the water. It's just still. I mean, it looked like a lake. And we were. We were not in the lake. We were. You know, we're in the ocean. And I was moved to tears. Right? The sun on the water. Because not a day goes by or not a day has gone by that I've been home, that I don't remember what it was like not to be here and not to be able to do the little things. All I ever missed were the little things. I never missed the, you know, the world tours or the hyperbole. Like, I missed being able to take a walk or being able to dip my feet in the water, taking a bath. And so every day as I go through the motions, especially with the little things, I'm reminded of when I couldn't do those little things. And that's a discipline and one that I'm grateful for. Not that I live in the past. I'm grateful to be here in my present.
- [28:30]
Leslie Heaney
It's so beautiful. And I think. Not that I would want to say that. That it was a gift in any way, but there are so many people who go through life and don't appreciate that calm water or fishing in the morning or, you know, all those things that make life just are the beautiful sort of simple things that. That mean all the. All the big things. Spending time with your family and your friends. But back to the crying thing, I think. I don't know if that's. I. I feel like everyone over 50, I said to Andrew, is it low? T. Is it. Is it low? You know? Yeah, we're all, like, crying all the time. I mean, I think. Don't you notice that? I remember when speaking of the bushes, when George H.W. bush, he was one of the greatest Americans to ever live. In my estimation, he. As he got older, he'd be in interviews and he would just start crying. I mean, Bill Clinton, all these older. They're just these, you know, these are leaders among men. And, you know, I think something about. As you get closer, you know, on the. When you're on the back nine, I think you just get a little bit more sentimental, right. About the whole. The whole thing. So Orin Hatch is writing his letter. My dad wrote, you know, we wrote a letter. Who was involved the Republican Party under H.W. and Reagan. Again, another person who heard your story, just like others who heard your story and was, you know, felt compelled to get involved.
- [30:00]
John Forte
And thank you, Mr. Bethgate.
- [30:02]
Leslie Heaney
But you. Please. I mean, what was that like? So tell me. You're like, all the letters are in. You've got. Margaret Love has put together, you know, this. Your letters. I don't know if there's an interview process also for you or if she acts as your representative. They have a meeting then with. With White House counsel, as I think, how it works. Right. Or there's a deposition. Explain the. The process.
- [30:24]
John Forte
There. There is a meeting with the. Whoever. The. There's clemency. The clemency attorney. And I don't know if they met with the clemency attorney directly or a representative from the clemency attorney's office, but that was a process very similar to trying to get into college. Your college. Right. Trying to get into college of your first choice. What was it like? There was momentum, there was energy, but it was also nearing the end of the president's term. So it felt like as urgent as anything has ever felt. And to that point, it was so timely that I couldn't allow myself to be too hopeful. So I had to have a tempered response to all of the good things that were going on.
- [31:17]
Leslie Heaney
Because you didn't want to be disappointed. I mean, you had the Appeals that didn't work out. You had the heart. You had some, I'm sure, with the appeals, tremendous disappointment. And so you were trying to get a balance.
- [31:28]
John Forte
And with every opportunity, right, it was like the actual percentage chance gets slimmer and slimmer. And, I mean, this was the last. It was the last shot. Barring the introduction of some new evidence and new testimony or somebody coming, this was it. So while I was definitely encouraged and feeling the love, literally, figuratively, I was cautiously optimistic. And I was also able to focus on my studies. I was able to focus on lse. I was able to focus on learning and teaching the guitar, which was happening simultaneously. So I had other really good, tangible things within my immediate focus that allowed me to effectuate change, right. In real time. At least that's what it felt like for me, Right. Like learning a new chord on the guitar is progress. Right? Now I can play a song that I wasn't able to play before because I had access to more access to the language and similar with my studies, Right. Like reading the newspaper is different after. You've got, you know, context and foundation and additional information to help you sort out the world around you. So I was pleasantly distracted.
- [32:48]
Leslie Heaney
So what's the. So take me to the day of.
- [32:51]
John Forte
It was just waiting. It was just waiting. It was never knowing.
- [32:55]
Leslie Heaney
And then it's announced. Is it like, announced? It's by facts. Margaret Love your gets a phone call. What is the.
- [33:03]
John Forte
So what happened was. It was November 20, 2008. I remember being on the phone line. It was in the evening. It was 6pm or something like that. And I called my attorney. I called one of my attorneys, Artie Tandon, who is also my dear friend. I had a few minutes left. It was nearing the end of the month, but I. But I saved some minutes and I. And I called Artie. And there was this pause. Say Artie. And pause. Artie. She says, john. John. Yeah. She said, did you hear anything? And I said, no, I'm calling you. And she says, it was announced. I said, what? And she said, it was announced you'll be home within 30 days. And the president commuted your sentence. And I didn't cry then. I just sighed and I said, thank you. And I hung up the phone. And I was walking back to my bunk. And the guy that I barely knew, he came up to me in the hallway. He says, what's your middle name? And I told him. And he says. And actually, he didn't say anything. He hugged me. He said, congratulations. And he said, I just heard them read Your name on the news. Because it was 11. It was 11 names. And so they read the full names, and he was listening to npr, and then the news just went. It spread all around the prison, and people just coming over to my bunk and is it true? Is it true? And.
- [34:56]
Leslie Heaney
And how did that feel? I mean, it must have been. You just must have been. I. I can't imagine the sense of relief. And also, you probably felt, you know, you're leaving behind your friends and. And people in prison who were.
- [35:12]
John Forte
That's certainly what I wanted to talk about. You know, earlier, I'm reminded of that, you know, as. As worthwhile as, you know, you and other friends and family members have thought the situation, my personal situation. The men that I met over the years, in my eyes, had honor, had reasons to be home, had shown remorse, had worked their way to improving themselves. You know, I was surrounded by models and examples of. Yeah. Men who made mistakes, but were doing everything within their power to be better people. And I don't know if I would have survived that situation were it not for those men. So while not a day goes by that I don't feel the gratitude for being seen, loved, remembered, and ultimately plucked out of hell, I know that I wasn't the only one who deserved it.
- [36:26]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. Oh, of course. And that must be. To that point, you also, as you're leaving prison, right. You have all of your boosters and supporters and friends that were there for you while you were in prison are there for you when you get out. And I think what's so difficult is for others who come out, it's hard. It's hard to get back into life. Right. Without having.
- [36:48]
John Forte
By design. By design. It's hard to get back. I mean, if our universities and colleges failed the way our prisons do. Right. And I mean that in terms of the recidivism rate, the. So. Right, right. And so if, like, how. How are the recidivism numbers so astronomical and that business deemed a success.
- [37:17]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. Well, it's so interesting to me because with the Barred Prison initiative, I have had someone say to me, and I think it's such an incredible program, oh, well, why should, you know, prisoners be getting a free education when. When other Americans don't have that. That opportunity? And, you know, to me, you know, the response there is, to your point, like, what is the goal? Right. And if you have people who are leaving, they don't have that hope while they're there. They don't have an opportunity to better themselves and. And come out of prison with a Fresh start, then they're going to end up back in prison. So if their perspective is tax dollars or whatever else it is, it's prevention versus intervention, in my view. I often think about that, just how, how hard it is for people coming out without. Without that support or being back in an environment with friends that might have been part of how they ended up there to begin with. You know, the.
- [38:18]
John Forte
That's exactly right.
- [38:19]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. So, okay, so you come out though, and did you still have to finish your London School of Economics degree? Were you still in the process of doing that?
- [38:29]
John Forte
I finished my first year. It was my first year of the three year program.
- [38:34]
Leslie Heaney
Okay.
- [38:35]
John Forte
And so I finished year one upon coming home, I was invited by LSE or a representative there to finish my program there or while I was in New York, but encouraged to do so. And like I said, I wrote an article for their alumni school or their alumni paper just on the importance of continuing education and especially being able to offer that to our incarcerated populations. But I did not. But I did not finish. But I still can.
- [39:08]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. I mean, just when you're in the middle of doing all the other things, you're doing kids and, and recording and everything else. Okay, so you come out and then you, you started teaching at the City of New York, am I right? City College of New York?
- [39:22]
John Forte
I did, I did.
- [39:24]
Leslie Heaney
And what was your thinking behind that? Like what, what, what compelled you to want to do that?
- [39:30]
John Forte
Well, it was an invitation. It was an invitation to participate in a program that already existed. And it was started by incredible man Terrence Stevens, who started a program for children of incarcerated parents, incarcerated adults. And so this was a community based initiative that allowed for local kids to take classes at City College and then to visit their incarcerated parents on the weekends together. Right. So he would plan bus trips, band trips in order to get these kids to see their parents. And so I showed up in a mentor capacity once a week doing, I think it was songwriting as catharsis. And so getting young people in contact with their feelings through the art of.
- [40:26]
Leslie Heaney
Songwriting, that must have been very gratifying for you to be able to do that, still have that kind of connection with the incarcerated community. Right. And holy.
- [40:35]
John Forte
And always.
- [40:36]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, yeah.
- [40:37]
John Forte
Yes.
- [40:38]
Leslie Heaney
So you come out and there must have been like a lot of expectations, right, for your friends, sort of like, when are we getting starting making music again? Did you come right out and start, like, did you want to go to the recording studio, by the way, when you first got out, what did you want to eat do? Like, what was your first, was there something that you. You know what I mean? I know mine would be like pizza and like bottles of Pinot Noir, but what would your. You know?
- [41:08]
John Forte
Yeah. Where did we go? I think we went to.
- [41:16]
Leslie Heaney
Now, who met you? Your mom. Your mom? I mean, who. Your whole family? Friends?
- [41:20]
John Forte
No, no, my. My. My friend and lawyer, Artie Tandon, she met me. She met me at the front gate at 7 o'clock in the morning. And my other good friend Daryl, he was filming, they picked me up at the gate. There's a video that's floating around out there called Life has Just Begun. And it. You can probably play a clip of it in this podcast and people can see that. That was the morning of my release, appropriately named. And I went, I went to my mom's place in New Jersey, went to go see my mom first, and then we went to lunch in the city and then I went to meet my probation officer because even though my sentence was commuted, I still had supervised release. So it wasn't like I was freed without any sort of conditions. In fact, I still had a term of probation, as it were, and I think it was five years, it might have been less. And so I had a probation officer in the New York City area that I had to meet upon leaving. And so after lunch, I met with him and he was incredibly clear. I appreciate him so much because you never really know. And he told me, he says, look, I'm not the type of person who's going to be waiting in the bushes for you to mess up. If you're honest with me, you're good with me. And he was just a straight shooter. And I think a month after that I went to him because Ben Taylor was going on a tour across Ireland and he knew how much I loved Ireland and he had invited me to join the tour, but I couldn't just up and leave. I had to get permission to go on this, to go on this five city tour across Ireland. And that was my first international trip. On the other side of coming home and going over to Ireland for three weeks and Limerick, Cork, Galway, Dublin. Showing up in these places and these halls and singing these songs immediately on the other side of coming home. It was incredible. It was wonderful.
- [43:41]
Leslie Heaney
That's great though. Are you still in contact with your probation officer? Maybe not. Maybe that's not something you want to keep.
- [43:46]
John Forte
No, I'm not. And as it goes, because the probation system is just so burdened that they have more leeway, right. And so I came home with I think a five year term of Probation, but was granted an early termination with, I think it was, if it wasn't 18 months, it was two years. And so I didn't have to, you know, I didn't, I didn't have to do the full, the full, the full term. And so yeah, I've not been in contact with him since he signed off on my release, but I'm wholly appreciative. So if he's hearing this interview. Thanks, Mr. Chad.
- [44:33]
Leslie Heaney
So you get, so you get, you come back from your five city tour, right, with Ben Taylor. You're like, you were so. Must just feel so good to be making music again. Be with your close friend. You're in one of your favorite places and then. Then what? Where you're like, I want to get back to the studio. You're teaching your course. How do you begin to sort of try to figure out the next steps right in your life? Because you also did, you did this movie right, in 2011, the Russian winter, which followed, followed you through this nine week tour. Were you kind of thinking after that experience with Ben, like, I want to get back on the road and then you decided to do a movie around it or what were you doing in those interim years between the release and your Russia tour?
- [45:20]
John Forte
You know, I was never alone and so I was fortunate enough to always have access to a network of kind, loving, caring, intelligent people, you know, my advisors and friends. And so immediately upon coming home, I felt like I just had access to folks who wanted the best for me. And so I didn't feel any shortage of opportunity. I felt like I definitely needed and I sought folks advice and wisdom and counsel because the world felt so different. Remember Artie gave me a BlackBerry and she gave me an iPhone.
- [46:01]
Leslie Heaney
And that must have been, I mean that was shocking for me. And I was, I was already, you know, I, I just, I can't imagine like the coming out and jumping from the.
- [46:12]
John Forte
So, so, you know, this kind of, this kind of speaks to your, your earlier question, you know, did I want to go into the studio immediately? Yes, I did. But it was different for me because going into the studio in 2008 was different than going into the studio in 2000, namely with the technology that we were just talking about. And so the software updates felt like they were light years ahead of where I left them. And so I felt like a fish out of water when I was back in the studio. And this is coming from a guy who was used to producing, you know, his own music. I was the producer. I was the one who was sitting there and turning the knobs and running my sessions. And lo and behold, I was in a. I was in my friend's recording studio in Manhattan, and Ben Taylor walks in, and he sees there are two engineers there. And he looks at me, and I'm playing him some of the new music that I'm working on. And he says, john, who are these guys? And I said, well, they're the engineers. And he says, but you run your sessions. Why do you have these guys running your session for you? And I said, ben, I said, the software. I don't. I don't know it anymore. I can't do it. And he says, well, you know what I want you to do? I want you to take my software, use it for a month. Here's. Here's my. Here's my code. Here's my pass key. I want you to just use it for a month. And if it doesn't work, then it doesn't work. But if there's resonance and you start to get it again, then, you know, I'd encourage you to do that. And two weeks later, I remember I called him up and I was just like, I'm back. And it was. It was just my willingness to learn again, you know, and. And I just had to catch up. I had to catch up. And. And I've been, you know, running my sessions ever since. And that was. That was probably 2009, like, a couple of months after I came home, because I came home December 20, 2008. So, yeah, I had to play a little bit of catch up. You know, I was definitely writing different songs, playing the guitar, which was something that I didn't do before I left. So that was wholly different. Right? Being able to support myself, being able to travel on the road as a singer, songwriter, rather than needing a DJ or needing a band behind me or anyone else, I could just travel with a guitar and tell a story with the guitar and. And these words and these lyrics. So it was very, very different. And those opportunities in and of themselves were different for me to explore and to be able to show up in public spaces at conferences like Ted, to be able to, you know, tell. Tell my story and my experience. And so initially, yeah, when I came home, there was just a lot of that. A lot of opportunities to be able to share the songs as well as the stories. And there was receptivity and interest, and I rode that wave until. Another friend from Exeter, we got in contact, Christophe. Christophe Charlier, who was working in Moscow for a number of years, and he said, man, I think that the people over here would really appreciate what you're doing. I said, you think? Yeah, I think you should consider coming over here and sharing your music. And then that idea spread into a five city tour. Moscow, Nishny Novgorod, Yekaterinburg, Kazan. And I mean, it rolls off the tongue.
- [49:52]
Leslie Heaney
It rolls off the tongue. You've got a good. I mean, I know I can barely say Paris and you've got the whole, the whole Russia thing going. So that's how you got. I was wondering how, why Russia? And it's because you had this. And he was like, I really think that you're story would really resonate over here. People would love to hear your music.
- [50:11]
John Forte
Correct. And it was a different time. And so one thing led to another and before you know it, every place we went to, we ended up breaking bread, connecting with, collaborating with some local artists from different genres. But there was just undeniable resonance.
- [50:32]
Leslie Heaney
Now, did he help produce the tour? Is he.
- [50:35]
John Forte
Oh, he financed the. He financed the whole thing. And we started a production company as a, as a result and filmed it. And we premiered the film at the Tribeca Film Festival. It's called the Russian Winter, in fact, and it premiered in 2012. And we took it, we took it all around the world on the, on the festival circuit. We were in competition that year with the juggernaut of a film, Waiting for Sugar man or Searching for Sugar man, and that, I think it won the Academy Award. We lost to that film in every competition. And now, as fate would have it, I'm actually working with the producer of that film on my new movie.
- [51:22]
Leslie Heaney
So let's talk about that because. So you had that first experience, right? The Russian Winter, and now you're basically in the process of producing a documentary, I think, about your life. Am I right about that or what?
- [51:38]
John Forte
Correct. Yeah. After the Russian Winter, I mean, we were able to be part of a number of other films. Brooklyn Castle was a great film about some students from Brooklyn who excelled. They had a local chess team and I encourage anyone and everyone to find that movie. And so I got the bug, you know, being able to not just contribute music to films, but to also produce and as a form of storytelling, you know, just knowing the undeniable value in the medium.
- [52:17]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, talk about that too though. You've been working in addition to your work on producing films, you've been composing music for. For films and commercials.
- [52:25]
John Forte
And films. Commercials, television, sports teams. I did the Brooklyn Nets theme song in 2012 when they moved to Brooklyn, which was an amazing honor, you know, being. Being From Brooklyn. And you know, composing has. Has been something that I've always aspired to, but only really been doing in full seriousness probably the last 10 years or so, which definitely picked up during COVID Right. The ability to be able to do this work from the studio here and to be able to, you know, support those storytelling initiatives. So, yeah, we are working on, among other things, a documentary feature about my life, about my story and my experience from the beginning up until now. In fact, after this interview, the director of that shoot is coming to my studio. They flew in from New York last night. So we have two more days of shooting here before we wrap up that fizzle reel and get it in the hands of our production partner. And that's all happening while I'm scoring a new film for Universal on Jack Kerouac and his story and Impact, directed by Eaves Bruno. So I started that a couple of weeks ago and we'll hopefully wrap that by Christmas. But I'm doing all of the music in that. Not just scoring it, but also the soundtrack work, which is something that I raised my hand to do and they said yes. And this is on the other. And this is on the other side of a few months ago doing six part series to HBO Eyes on the Prize, which was an award winning documentary series for pbs.
- [54:05]
Leslie Heaney
So Don Porter, are they releasing that is hbo. That's great.
- [54:11]
John Forte
Yes. So we did that last year, went down to New Orleans to tie it up. But that was an amazing, amazing experience and opportunity for me. It was the most composing that I'd done up until that point. Sharpened my sword. I think it definitely left me better than it found me and it's just prepared me for what's in front of me.
- [54:37]
Leslie Heaney
How does it work? So when you're composing something, and particularly something like Eyes on the Prize, right, Which is such an incredible. Just moving and you know, probably very personal for you subject, right. With what it's about. Do you watch the footage and then you think about how the footage made you feel and that helps you like what is the creative process?
- [55:02]
John Forte
So the creative process is for me is I watch the footage quite often, in fact. And then as I work to composing the picture, a lot of it is done on repeat for me. So it's. It's actually pretty traumatic. It's just certain aspects of it, especially with Eyes in the Prize because, you know, it's like I'm scoring Trayvon Martin's public execution and having to. Does this deserve xylophone or cello? And you know, and having to compartmentalize but also work through some really, really horrific stuff. And then they have to support it in a way that doesn't distract from what we're supposed to be paying attention to. Right. It's always supposed to be supportive and never, I guess, never about me. It's never about being like, I don't want people to even know that I'm in the room. Right. Like you should be leaning in because of the story that's being told, not because of the drums you're hearing, but.
- [56:10]
Leslie Heaney
The music that is set to movies or tele. Composing for a film or the point of it, right. Is to capture the emotion or enhance the experience that the viewer is having. The original Eyes in the Prize on PBS was a kind of a docu series about the civil rights movement. Is this sort of a more recent kind of update on.
- [56:40]
John Forte
It's the same premise. And so what was important with Eyes on the Prize when it was released back in the 80s was that they were covering an era with some form of hindsight. What was different about that series in its expressed nature was we're not going to cover this as a current event. We're going to cover this as a recently historical event which will give us the ability to unpack it, to synthesize it, to talk about it from, if not 30,000ft, from at least 10,000ft, so that we have some perspective. And so same thing here, the HBO series. We began in 1976 in New York and then we ended 2012 with the, with the murder of Trayvon Martin. I was born in 1975 and so doing this, HBO Eyes, doing this period from 1976 to 2012 felt very, very close to life as I remember it. Knew it, tasted it, experienced it.
- [57:42]
Leslie Heaney
It's not history. Right. It's actually in some ways your life experience or the, or the eras that you.
- [57:48]
John Forte
Correct, right, yes. I mean it felt incredibly, you know, not necessarily biographical, but proximate to, you know, it just felt like next door relatable.
- [58:00]
Leslie Heaney
Relatable, right. You talked about, you said, you know, giving back to the incarcerated community. You said always.
- [58:08]
John Forte
The Transformational Prison Project has been, has been my organization.
- [58:13]
Leslie Heaney
Okay.
- [58:15]
John Forte
For the last five years or so. They are working out of Massachusetts, although they're showing up nationally, but they're based in the Boston area.
- [58:26]
Leslie Heaney
And tell us about that group.
- [58:28]
John Forte
What is their Transformational Prison Project? They are all system impacted individuals who began this work of personal reform and rehabilitation and circles of truth, justice, activism, acknowledgement, awareness, hurt people, hurt people, healthy people, heal people. Right. And so they not Only run circles with offenders, but people who were impacted by crimes in order to have, I think the closest thing felt like a truth and reconciliation experience.
- [59:05]
Leslie Heaney
I would say like a reconciliation on.
- [59:06]
John Forte
This side of the pond to shoot. Sure. Yeah. And it's done in earnest with grounding and awareness and love.
- [59:14]
Leslie Heaney
Today, what is life? I know you're working on the movie with fishing.
- [59:17]
John Forte
I'm working on the movie.
- [59:18]
Leslie Heaney
You've got beautiful children.
- [59:20]
John Forte
Yeah. I'm going to go see my babies. Yeah. My babies are out at the beach this week and they're living their best lives before they go back to school. I'm currently in my studio. Yeah, I'm scoring, I'm writing. I live on Mother's Vineyard. I was boring a few months ago with fugees and doing some sold out arenas there. Just kind of reminiscing and reconnecting.
- [59:54]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. I was going to say, what was it like being back with the old gang?
- [59:57]
John Forte
It was everything. It was awesome. It was wonderful. It puts a big smile on my face just when I think about our ability there before the grace of God, still be able to not just do what gives us so much joy, but also what clearly gives other people great joy as well, you know, I mean, there were times when I didn't even have to sing my lyrics. I could just hold a microphone out because. Yeah, because they all knew it. And that's a sensation. That is incredible.
- [60:30]
Leslie Heaney
That's so awesome. I mean, I don't want to have people hang up on the podcast or else you and I could do that right now. I mean, I could. I could. You could. We could go Fuji lyric to Fuji lyric.
- [60:44]
John Forte
Yes, yes.
- [60:46]
Leslie Heaney
We should have planned that. We should have planned a little more of that. So I could have gotten prepared part three. Exactly. Exactly. Oh, my God. Okay, so today, what's next for you? What would be sort of your greatest dream or thing that you'd like to do that you haven't done yet? Is there a certain project or certain touring somewhere or a collaboration with someone?
- [61:11]
John Forte
I think always, you know, I mean, I'm. My career is rooted in collaboration and so that's always been something I've looked forward to, something I don't and have never wanted to micromanage. It's like that's. That's smelling. That's smelling the flowers for me. Right. Just because you never know who you're going to be in a room with and then the ability to create something together. So that's just something that I always look forward to, but not necessarily wanting or needing it to be anyone in particular, because I'm more often than not usually pleasantly surprised with the outcome. It's just what happens when you. When you put creative people together and, you know, just finding your way. Right. And. And. And then not knowing, which is so exciting and so rewarding. So that's just something I look forward to in. In general and. And also hopefully get to make more movies.
- [62:13]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [62:14]
John Forte
To make more. To make. To make. To make more music that. That matters to people, especially people I care about, know about people that I know and love. Right. Like, when I think about the art that I make, a lot of it is one day hoping that my children will be able to access it and tap into it and take whatever they want or need from the experience. Like, it's pretty selfish for me. Like, I think about my music that way. Like, how will my kids enjoy this? How will my kids experience this? Will they like it? Will they respect it? Will they. Will they love it? Will they cherish it?
- [62:50]
Leslie Heaney
I didn't think about that too. Probably your music, you know, as parents, you know, our perspective on things, you know, when everything changes when you have kids. So you absolutely maybe are not, you know, dropping the F bomb as much or. I don't know. I don't know if you ever, ever did, but I'm just saying. I don't know. I did.
- [63:09]
John Forte
Oh, I did. I mean, so I'll take it a step further because, you know, look, I'll keep it real with you because I know and love you and therefore respect your audience as well. So I'll keep it this real with you. I don't say the N word anymore as a result of my going to prison and then coming home. Like, I stopped saying that word when I was in prison. I used to say it and, you know. Yeah, yeah, I used to defend it and put it in my music. I don't say it anymore. So when I think about my music and I think about my kids listening to my first album versus, you know, my more recent things, yeah, I think about the consequences of that, but I also think about the opportunity to be able to talk to them about how my music changed over time and, you know, what that choice has meant for me. And then the opportunity to be able to unpack that and just to. I never knew my dad, so I never had the opportunity to be what I am today or at least see what I am today. So I take real joy and pride and honor in being able to show up for my babies in a way that was not done for me.
- [64:30]
Leslie Heaney
What sort of prompted your decision to not use the N word anymore? Did the meaning of it change for you? Meaning why did the perspective of the use of the word change for you.
- [64:39]
John Forte
Having the word hit.
- [64:42]
Leslie Heaney
You just didn't want your kids to hear you say it?
- [64:44]
John Forte
No, no, that's not it at all. That's not it at all. I didn't have kids at the time. You know, this was me making the conscientious decision to stop doing while I was still incarcerated. Because. Because the word. The word hit differently. It felt differently to me. And so when I would show up to, you know, another prison or when I was going through transit or when somebody would use that word, I made it very clear that I don't. I don't. I don't use that word. And it wasn't. It wasn't a result of something that I saw or read over the years. It was how I felt while I was there.
- [65:26]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [65:26]
John Forte
And, And, And, And. And how that word landed on me in that space. And. And I said, I can't. I can't be complicit to.
- [65:35]
Leslie Heaney
I see. Yeah.
- [65:36]
John Forte
To. To. To this sort of energetic. What felt like energetic ambivalence, but it was anything but that. Right. It was. It was almost a confirmation and a reaffirma condition, especially in that space for me. It wasn't like anybody that was in my ear preaching to me or lecturing to me. It was me. It was just. It wasn't me just having it.
- [66:00]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. It wasn't me.
- [66:01]
John Forte
That awareness. Yeah.
- [66:02]
Leslie Heaney
It wasn't empowering for you in any way. It was more degrading or that you had.
- [66:06]
John Forte
100%. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. I didn't. I didn't. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't take any power from it.
- [66:12]
Leslie Heaney
So when. When does the documentary come out about your life? What's. What's the timeline? You've got the. You're working on the sizzle reel right after this.
- [66:20]
John Forte
Yeah, literally right after this. I don't know. We. We. We might see it as soon as next year. We might. We. We. We have so much. It feels like there's a lot going on, so maybe as soon as next year, it's happening.
- [66:35]
Leslie Heaney
It's so awesome. That's. And what. And when does the eye. When do. When do the Eyes and the Prize come out in hbo? When is that?
- [66:41]
John Forte
So, interestingly enough, I thought that that was actually supposed to be out already. I don't know what the holdup is, but it's. It's in the can and so it's kind of like one of those things waiting for. Waiting to hear from the pardon attorney. You hope that it's any day now.
- [66:57]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, it's. That's going to be so awesome. I can't wait to watch that. I can't wait to watch that. All right, so you've got. People are coming in. You've got an appointment after me. As you should. What happened? Fishing this morning. Did you get any. Any catch anything or.
- [67:12]
John Forte
We caught three bonitas and we're going to turn them into sushi this afternoon at 2:00.
- [67:16]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, my God. I love it. I wish I was. I'm.
- [67:19]
John Forte
My life is dope, Leslie.
- [67:21]
Leslie Heaney
I know. It really is.
- [67:23]
John Forte
Come on. I'm like, what? Like manna from heaven. I'm Cassidy. It's all happening.
- [67:31]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, so awesome. It's so awesome.
- [67:34]
John Forte
And I'm going to come to see you guys in Nashville.
- [67:36]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. When are you coming? When are you coming?
- [67:38]
John Forte
I don't know. But. But soon. I mean, I have enough. I have enough reason to get there. It's. It's not. It's not so far away, literally. My friends. My friends are here. Maybe when they open up the restaurant, we'll. We'll turn it into that.
- [67:49]
Leslie Heaney
And you're going to help me up with the name and the whole thing.
- [67:52]
John Forte
The whole thing.
- [67:54]
Leslie Heaney
I can't wait. I'm so happy to see you, my friend. Thank you. So, I mean, the. It's like the interview that never ends. I mean, I just. I could go on and on and on and on and look, we. And when. When. By the way, what is the documentary going to be called? Do you have a title for it yet?
- [68:08]
John Forte
Right now it's settling the score.
- [68:12]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, I love that. Double entendre, sort of. Right? Yeah. I mean, it's like, look at you. I mean, that's why I make the big bucks. That's why I make the big bucks. Ah, yes. Oh, but I. When that happens, we got to get you back on just to tell us the details of it. But we won't have. I won't drag you through three hours of interviews, but we have to make sure we get. Get the word out. I can't wait for it. It's going to be awesome.
- [68:39]
John Forte
Leslie, thank you so much.
- [68:41]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, it's my pleasure, my friend. Thank you. That brings us to the end of this episode of the interview. A huge thank you again to John Forte for joining us. And as always, thank you again for listening. If you enjoyed the show, please rate and review us on Apple podcasts and follow us on Instagram at the Interview with Leslie A new podcast is released every Wednesday. Until then, this is Leslie Heaney. And don't forget to join the interview.