Podcast Summary: The Interview with Leslie Heaney – “Land Between The Rivers: Iraq Then and Now” featuring Bartle Bull

Release Date: July 2, 2025

In this enlightening episode of "The Interview with Leslie Heaney," host Leslie Heaney engages in a profound conversation with Bartle Bull, the author of "Land Between The Rivers: Iraq Then and Now." The discussion delves deep into Iraq's extensive history, its pivotal role in human civilization, and the complex dynamics that shape its present and future. Below is a detailed summary capturing the essence of their dialogue.

1. The Centrality of Iraq in Human History

Leslie Heaney opens the conversation by highlighting Iraq's immense historical significance, posing the broad question: "Why is this region so important? Why has it always had such significance in history?" (00:00).

Bartle Bull responds by emphasizing Iraq's role as a historical crossroads. He states, "It's been probably the key crossroads since the very beginning of human history," (00:39) elaborating on Iraq's contributions, including the invention of writing, the wheel, and the zodiac. He underscores Iraq as the birthplace of the first cities, such as ancient Sumer, and notes its enduring role as a meeting and conflict point for civilizations over millennia.

2. Bartle Bull’s Experience as a Reporter in Iraq

Leslie inquires about Bartle’s personal journey into Iraqi history, especially his time as a reporter during the early 2000s conflicts (02:20). Bartle recounts arriving in Iraq post the 2003 American invasion, around the onset of the insurgency in 2004 (03:02). As a freelancer, he navigated the perilous landscape by securing assignments, notably writing about the Kurds, and ventured into Baghdad amidst escalating violence.

He reflects on the entrepreneurial nature of journalism, describing how freelancing necessitated an adaptable and risk-taking approach (05:25). Bartle shares anecdotes about securing safe accommodations through Kurdish-hosted hotels and sometimes residing in local homes, highlighting the immense courage and hospitality of the Iraqi people who sheltered him (08:27).

3. The Making of "Land Between The Rivers"

Leslie probes into Bartle’s decision to author a comprehensive history book spanning 5,000 years up to 1958 (10:21). Bartle explains that his goal was to present Iraq's rich history uninfluenced by contemporary conflicts, particularly the Iraq War. By ending his narrative in 1958—the year of the royal family's assassination—he aimed to provide a historical foundation without the bias of recent events (11:14).

He discusses his extensive research process, including accessing original sources in libraries such as the British Embassy in Tehran, and emphasizes the importance of storytelling through individual narratives. This method brings history to life by focusing on characters like Gilgamesh and King Faisal I, making the chronicle both engaging and informative (13:49).

4. Iraq’s Historical Dominance

Bartle articulates Iraq's unparalleled influence over five millennia. He asserts, "if you divide up the history of the world into 500 year segments for the last 5,000 years... nine out of 10 of those, the biggest city on earth was in Iraq," (21:30). This statement underscores cities like Uruk, Babylon, and Baghdad as historical hubs of civilization, innovation, and power.

5. The Treaty of Versailles and Modern Borders

Leslie references the Treaty of Versailles and its role in shaping modern Iraq, questioning whether the imposed borders were arbitrary or historically grounded (22:56).

Bartle Bull counters the common narrative that European powers haphazardly drew Iraq's borders. He explains that the 1920 delineations by the British Mandate aligned closely with ancient and Ottoman provincial lines, arguing that these borders were not merely colonial impositions but reflected longstanding geographic and cultural demarcations (23:57). He emphasizes that Iraq is an ancient and cohesive entity, debunking the myth of it being a "fake country" with illegitimate borders (28:51).

6. Ethnic and Religious Dynamics in Iraq

Leslie brings up the internal tensions among Sunnis, Shias, and Kurds within Iraq, prompting Bartle to clarify these complex dynamics (31:20).

Bartle breaks down the Sunni-Shia split, attributing its origins to a succession dispute after Prophet Muhammad's death in 632 AD. He explains that Shias were historically excluded from political power, leading to theological beliefs that deem earthly authority illegitimate until a messianic figure returns (33:49).

Regarding the Kurds, Bartle describes them as the world's largest stateless nation, dispersed across Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Turkey. He highlights their distinct ethnic and linguistic identity, separate from Arabs and Persians, and notes the additional layer of diversity within Kurdish communities themselves, including variations in religious affiliations (36:14).

7. The 1958 Coup and Its Aftermath

Leslie inquires about the pivotal event of the 1958 coup that ended the Iraqi monarchy, questioning its nature and consequences (37:20).

Bartle Bull details the coup led by mid-level army officers, which resulted in the assassination of the royal family on July 14, 1958 (37:55). He connects this event to the rise of figures like Saddam Hussein, who emerged from the chaos of the post-coup power vacuum. Bartle discusses how the monarchy's inability to withstand the ideological pressures of the 20th century, including fascism and communism, led to its downfall (39:35).

8. Iraq’s Modern Political Landscape and Iranian Influence

Leslie raises questions about Iraq's current state, governance, and international alliances (48:12). Bartle responds by outlining the post-2003 landscape:

• Elections and Governance: Since the first post-Saddam elections in 2005, Iraq has seen significant political participation, although ongoing issues like corruption and factionalism persist (51:16).

• Iran’s Dominance: Bartle argues that Iraq’s politics are now heavily influenced by Iran due to the U.S. withdrawal and regional power vacuums. He notes that while Iraqis seek modernity and Western alliances, Iran's pervasive influence remains a challenge (50:30).

• Potential and Resilience: Despite longstanding conflicts and external pressures, Bartle highlights Iraq's potential for stability and growth, praising the Iraqi people's resilience and their capacity for peaceful coexistence even amidst turmoil (54:31).

9. Reflections and Future Endeavors

As the interview concludes, Leslie expresses profound appreciation for Bartle’s work, emphasizing the book's role in deepening the understanding of Iraq's pivotal place in both history and contemporary affairs (55:34). She hints at the possibility of a sequel to cover Iraq’s history from 1958 to the present day, underscoring the richness and complexity of the subject matter.

Bartle Bull reciprocates the gratitude, underscoring his indebtedness to the Iraqi people who supported him during his reporting years and acknowledging the book as a culmination of his extensive research and personal experiences.

Notable Quotes:

• Bartle Bull on Iraq's Historical Role:

  "It's been probably the key crossroads since the very beginning of human history." (00:39)

• On Freelancing in Iraq:

  "Freelancing... rewards hustle... Getting yourself out there looking for these opportunities." (05:25)

• On Iraq’s Ancient Significance:

  "If you divide up the history of the world into 500 year segments for the last 5,000 years, nine out of 10 of those, the biggest city on earth was in Iraq." (21:30)

• Regarding Iraq’s Borders Post-Versailles:

  "Iraq is a real place and that its current borders... reflect almost as perfectly as they could be expected to something that is very, very ancient and very real." (28:51)

• On Sunni-Shia Split:

  "The Shias everywhere except for Iran, have largely been the ones excluded from power." (33:49)

• On Iran’s Influence Today:

  "The government's recent governments in Baghdad have been thoroughly dominated by Iran." (50:30)

Conclusion

This episode serves as a comprehensive exploration of Iraq's deep historical roots and its enduring influence on global civilization. Through Bartle Bull's expert insights and personal anecdotes, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of Iraq's complex socio-political fabric, historical milestones, and the challenges it faces today. The conversation not only highlights the scholarly depth of Bartle's work but also underscores the resilience and potential of the Iraqi people amidst a turbulent history.