LIVE from New York! - feat. Lindsay Shookus

Summary

Podcast Summary: LIVE from New York! - feat. Lindsay Shookus

Introduction and Background

In this captivating episode of The Interview with Leslie Heaney, host Leslie Heaney welcomes Lindsay Shookus, a seven-time Emmy winner renowned for her two-decade tenure as the head of the talent department at Saturday Night Live (SNL). Released on January 22, 2025, the episode delves deep into Lindsay's remarkable journey, her experiences at one of television's longest-running comedy shows, and her ventures post-SNL.

Lindsay’s Journey to SNL

Lindsay recounts her unconventional path to SNL, illustrating the serendipitous nature of her career. Graduating from UNC Chapel Hill, she moved to New York City without a job and swiftly landed a position at SNL by September 30th of her first year.

Lindsay Shookus [04:09]: "I moved here like Labor Day weekend, and by September 30, I had a job at SNL."

Her entry was facilitated by maintaining a strong relationship with her college internship boss, whom she generously sent homemade chocolate chip cookies.

Behind the Scenes at SNL

As the head of the talent department, Lindsay was instrumental in discovering and managing some of the show's most iconic talents. She shares anecdotes about scouting legends like Kristen Wiig and Bill Hader, highlighting the rigorous yet rewarding process of assembling the SNL cast.

Lindsay Shookus [07:04]: "Employees would often surprise us with incredible talent, and Bill was such an extraordinary talent that it was pretty obvious pretty quickly."

Lindsay emphasizes the collaborative and high-energy environment of SNL, where creativity thrived under tight deadlines.

Notable Experiences and Stories

Throughout her time at SNL, Lindsay accumulated a treasure trove of memorable stories. From securing Snickers bars and vodka for the ever-charming Betty White to her interactions with Alec Baldwin, Lindsay provides an insider's look into the show's vibrant atmosphere.

Lindsay Shookus [38:12]: "Betty White was probably one of the most phenomenal people to work with and get to experience. She was so funny and kind."

She also touches upon the spontaneous nature of SNL's creative process, where ideas like Justin Timberlake's "Dick in a Box" emerged almost overnight, embodying the show's unique magic.

Life Lessons and Work-Life Balance

Balancing a demanding career with personal life, Lindsay opens up about the challenges of motherhood while managing a pivotal role at SNL. She candidly discusses the difficulties of maintaining presence in her daughter's life amidst her professional commitments.

Lindsay Shookus [32:35]: "I just felt like I had to show up. And so I just figured it out... it was really hard."

Lindsay reflects on the importance of being present and how stepping away from SNL allowed her to reclaim aspects of her life she had previously neglected.

Post-SNL Ventures and Women Work Effing Hard

After leaving SNL in 2023, Lindsay transitioned into motivational speaking and co-founded Women Work Effing Hard, a community dedicated to empowering women by fostering connections and supporting their professional growth. She shares the genesis of the group, initially intended as a one-time event, which organically evolved into a movement focused on mutual support among women.

Lindsay Shookus [46:10]: "We are just trying to help people get better at helping people."

Women Work Effing Hard hosts intimate events across various cities, emphasizing quality connections over scaling rapidly, ensuring each event maintains its personal touch.

Speaking and Future Projects

Lindsay has embraced her role as a speaker, focusing on themes like trust, vulnerability, and adaptability. Her speaking engagements are enriched with personal stories from her time at SNL, offering actionable insights alongside heartfelt narratives.

Lindsay Shookus [49:40]: "Trust is at the forefront of what most of us do in business and in life, and yet I don't think we really think about that much."

Looking forward, Lindsay is involved in several projects, including a documentary set to release in the summer and a potential podcast. Her philosophy centers on following her passions, collaborating with great people, and remaining open to unexpected opportunities.

Conclusion

This episode offers a profound exploration of Lindsay Shookus's life and career, from her impactful years at SNL to her inspiring endeavors post-show. Listeners gain valuable insights into the workings of a legendary television institution, the importance of work-life balance, and the power of community and personal growth. Lindsay's story is a testament to adaptability, resilience, and the continual pursuit of fulfillment beyond one's initial success.

Notable Quotes:

• Lindsay Shookus [04:09]: "I moved here like Labor Day weekend, and by September 30, I had a job at SNL."
• Lindsay Shookus [07:04]: "Employees would often surprise us with incredible talent, and Bill was such an extraordinary talent that it was pretty obvious pretty quickly."
• Lindsay Shookus [38:12]: "Betty White was probably one of the most phenomenal people to work with and get to experience. She was so funny and kind."
• Lindsay Shookus [32:35]: "I just felt like I had to show up. And so I just figured it out... it was really hard."
• Lindsay Shookus [46:10]: "We are just trying to help people get better at helping people."
• Lindsay Shookus [49:40]: "Trust is at the forefront of what most of us do in business and in life, and yet I don't think we really think about that much."

Key Takeaways:

• Lindsay Shookus played a pivotal role in shaping SNL's talent pool, discovering and nurturing some of the most influential comedians and actors.
• Her experiences at SNL taught her invaluable life lessons about trust, adaptability, and the importance of being present both professionally and personally.
• Post-SNL, Lindsay channels her expertise into empowering women through her community, Women Work Effing Hard, promoting supportive networks over competitive scaling.
• Lindsay continues to evolve, engaging in speaking, consulting, and creative projects that align with her passion for connection and personal growth.

For those interested in the interplay between creative industries and personal development, this episode offers a wealth of knowledge and inspiration drawn from Lindsay Shookus’s rich career and life experiences.

Transcript

[Leslie Heaney]

This is Leslie and you're listening to the interview with Leslie Heaney. It's hard to believe, but it was 50 years ago this year that Saturday Night Live made its debut on television. And there's a four part episode docu series that's coming out this week on Peacock called SNL 50 beyond Saturday which gives us all a look inside the making of the show. Who knew that the interview was also so timely as my next guest is a seven time Emmy winner from her work on Saturday Night Live. Lindsay Shookus. For over 20 years, Lindsay worked for and became head of the talent department at snl. Not only did she have one of the most exciting and as she would say, pinch me careers in entertainment, managing, booking and discovering the talent for one of the greatest and longest running comedy shows ever on television, but she also learned a ton of important life lessons along the way. After leaving SNL in 2023, Lindsay's gone on to speak to thousands of people about these life experiences and about the importance of cultivating relationships with people during her career. Lindsay's also the co founder of Women Work Effing Hard, a group connecting and boosting women. In this episode, Lindsay gives us a behind the scenes look of the production of SNL and and shares so many amazing stories and experiences she had during her time there. We cover everything from her getting Snickers bars and vodka for the amazing Betty White, to discovering Kristen Wiig on a tape, to getting a boost to her career from Alec Baldwin who went to Lorne Michaels to talk about how terrific she was.

[Lindsay Shookus]

And we talked about all of the.

[Leslie Heaney]

Amazing life lessons that she learned from her time there, working in a really high energy 247 environment and what it's like to kind of incorporate that type of work life with your personal life and most importantly, your life while being a mother. Lindsay and I talk about how she approaches her life today, her work and all the incredible projects that she's working on now. I absolutely loved taping this episode. I enjoyed every minute of my conversation with Lindsay. She's down to earth, she's hilarious and she's incredibly wise and I know that you'll love listening to her amazing stories about SNL and getting kind of that behind the scenes look at the making of that incredible and iconic show. But I think you'll also really enjoy some of the important life lessons that Lindsay learned from her time there. So with that, Lindsay Shokis.

[Lindsay Shookus]

Lindsay, I'm so happy to see you. I'm so grateful to you for coming on the pod.

Happy to be Here, baby.

I can't wait to do a full behind the music on your incredible career.

VH1 behind me. I know everyone's clamoring for it. We're ready.

Did I. So this is a sidebar, but I met Meat Loaf in a bar, and my husband and I ended up spending. I'm in, like, hours with him. Hours. And somehow, you know, over the course of too many wines, I turned to him. I'm like, I want you to know you were my second favorite behind the music. You're my second favorite behind Jovi was my number one, being a native New Jerseyan. But anyway, he was terrific. I got the full backstory in paradise by the Dashboard Light.

Wow.

Which was the mayor of Dallas's daughter. He wouldn't. I did ask him. You do anything for love, but you won't do that. What's that? He wouldn't tell me. So, like, I.

Anyway, by the way, that has to be, like. You must tell this story quite a bit, right? This is going to be, like, at a party. Are you, like, guess who met Milo?

Oh, my God. Know, I should use it more. I should use it like two Truth and a lie. I know.

I mean, it's, like, perfect.

I know.

He was.

Anyway, he was great. He was great. But I'm so excited to talk to you, and I want.

Speaking of meatloaf.

Speaking of meat, which is what his friends, like, me call him. You can call him me. Okay. So you graduate from UNC Chapel Hill, and how do you find yourself from there to snl?

Yeah, it was. You know, whenever I tell this story, I. I say, it's like, it's pretty ridiculous. I graduated. I went back to Buffalo, where I'm from, for a few months to, like, make some money. As a waitress? Yeah. Yeah. Had a friend who I was going to be my roommate in New York City, and I moved here without a job. And I was like, I'll just, like, you know, knock on some doors and find something. And I moved here, like, Labor Day weekend, and by September 30, I had a job at SNL.

So what door did you walk up to? 30 Rock and Knock on that door?

No, I. I had done an internship in college and in publicity and film, and I just. I stayed in touch with my boss. I always said, the year of my senior year, I sent her cookies on her birthday. I made. I had no money, but I made her chocolate chip cookies, and I sent them on her birthday. And the fact that I remembered that she was like, oh, yeah, she liked me. And Then she, like, helped me get my in at snl.

Stop it. Was she. Did she work for NBC or just.

My old boss, like, was like, you know, she was connected and.

Yeah.

In, like, in the industry. She knew somebody. She knew Jen.

Right, okay.

Our mutual connection. Okay, amazing. So I went and I met with Jen, and I remember I always. Jen was eating, like, a pita sandwich.

Yeah.

During my interview. And I remember being like, is this what interviews are like? I thought interviews were so much more like, you know, sit behind a desk and answer questions. And Jen was just, like, eating this pita sandwich.

I just finished half a bagel and I thought to myself, I really need to probably wrap this up before Lindsay rolls in with me. You know, eat having cream cheese all over my face in between my teeth. So you walk into Jen's office and was she looking for a particular.

No, Lauren was looking for, like, his fourth assistant at the time. And what I didn't know is they had already probably found somebody, but Jen was kind of meeting with me as, like, a favor. And so I talked with Jen. That's why it was very informal. You know, pita sandwiches. And. And by the end, she's like, you know, someone else might be looking for an assistant here. I'm going to. I'm going to pass you over to somebody else. I met with the other person who was in the talent department at snl. They had me meet Marcy Klein, who was the head department. And then a few weeks later, I started.

How does that work? Do people. I mean, some people. Do they come in unrepresented? Do they have agents? How do the. How does the talent find SNL and SNL find the talent?

You mean, like cast members?

Yeah, like all of them.

I mean, most people are represented. Like, I would say, like, it's very rare that someone would be hired without some sort of representation. Now, I will. I will say it has changed in the sense that, like, you know, back then it was like, we got vhs, they sent us vhs, and it would probably been an agent and you had to sign a release. Now it's like links and, you know, there's just so much online. You could find somebody online who's. Who's young and green and you. You know, maybe they won't have an agent. It's pretty rare still, though. So, yeah, agents would send us stuff managers and we'd also go to comedy clubs and Brownlean, Second City, ucb and. And we'd get also a ton of recommendations from current cast members and current writers and. Right.

Didn't Megan Mullally. I saw some interview with Bill Hader or maybe he was on smart list or something, talking about. She just called.

She called. Yeah, Lauren and. And was like. I. I think it was like her brother in law or someone in her family was in this was in Bilk's comedy group. And she saw. And she was like, not the person I'm related to, but Bill Hayt.

Yeah, exactly. That.

That's what she called Lauren.

But he also mentioned you in that interview because I was the first person who called him.

You know, it's like Lauren was like, oh, let's pass this to the talent department. I'll never forget, I had this yellow post it note that had his name and his number, and I put it in my little, like, composition notebook and I called him and I was like, we want to bring you in to just meet with you.

Yeah.

And I kept all my notebooks. So when Bill left, I actually still had the sticky that was. And I actually put it in, like, they were collecting things for him when he left. So I still. I was able to give him the like, original post it note.

That is amazing. Was it like, call, call Bill.

It was just like his name. It like in one of Lauren's assistant's handwriting. And so, yeah, I called him. He said he was in the bathroom, and I was like, we want to bring you in. We just met with him and then we saw him perform. And I mean, Bill was such an extraordinary talent that it was like, pretty obvious pretty quickly. So everybody has a different version of how they got to snl. You know, some it's like Pete Davidson. Bill Hader told us about Pete Davidson versus Leslie Jones. Chris Rock called versus Vanessa Bayer. We saw her perform versus Kate McKinnon was seen on a. On a tape, you know, on a link. So everybody has a different story.

So give me a time frame for when you started working with Marcy Klein.

This is so 2002. I started working the talent department, and I worked with her and another woman named Ayala Cohen, who was right beneath Marcy. And they kind of like, showed me the ropes. And, you know, really, it was like, it's pretty gut. You know, you watch so much of these tapes. Yeah, you watch them over and over, and you'd think, like, oh, my God, how fun. Fun. But a lot of it's not very good. You know, a lot of it. Very quickly you're like, oh, this isn't good. And so you kind of just. You just go through and you're trying to pull out things that seem like they're special. And then those are the ones I would show my boss things that were like.

So you would kind of. You were. Was that your first sort of. That was your entree into that department. You would start kind of culling through all of these tapes and.

Yeah, well, that was. And then the casting was really like a small part of the job, really. The talent department's also just dealing with the hosts, the musical guests, and then all the experiences throughout the week, anything talent related. So my first day, I always joke about my first day. You know, again, first job out of college, my first day I met Matt Damon because he was the host that week. And I, four days later, I got to watch Bruce Springsteen perform or rehearse for his musical performance. And I remember being like, how is this a job? Like, what. You know, and the funny. I always laugh like, the funny thing is, it's definitely a job. I mean, I worked, I worked so hard at starting live. I worked the hours I worked, the time the Spent the energy, the stress, but it was a pretty phenomenal way to get your sea legs in show business, for sure.

Oh, I mean, it was so exciting. And I just have my own. I mean, I live vicariously through Jen, obviously, and I know a little bit about your schedule. You being in talent had a whole other, like, obligations and stresses in terms of having to be there all the time. But she was there all the time.

Yeah, no, you. I live there. Yeah, I live there. I also met my ex husband and I met on the first day, my first day at snl. So we, I not only like, lived there and all my friends were there. I also met the person I ended up marrying and we were. Me and my husband at the time were there and we had offices next to each other and kind of probably. And then we had a daughter there. You know, like, we, we really had an SNL life. I mean, at our, at our wedding, it was like 70 people from the show, you know, because it was like everything to me.

Yeah.

I didn't have time for anything else. Yeah.

I was going to say you, you're not going to meet somebody like at a bar when you're, when you're at snl. Okay, so you. So I, for. I didn't. I forgot about that part. I wasn't really thinking through so much that it's not just obviously just looking for new talent and cultivating the talent that's there. It's. It's handling all of the guests that are coming on.

And I would say the majority of it is the opposite. It's like maybe it's 15 casting for new cast members because that really happens in the summer when things are on hiatus.

Okay.

The rest of the job is really like talent, talent relations, booking, making sure you've seen all the movies and all the shows and you go to a million concerts to make sure you know what's like the hot new artists you want to book and if they're good live and then dealing with all the problems and the like talent producing throughout the six days of the show. So that was really the focus of my, of my job when I was there.

So you've mentioned Matt Damon as your first guest. Right. So he's coming on that week. Maybe he's got a big movie coming out or whatever. Do the writers have the schedule for the next, I don't know, six weeks, two months to kind of be able to anticipate who's coming on or is that all kind of happening?

It really does happen the week of like when I. People don't believe it, but like, you know, you could like, let's say, you know, you might have a reoccurring sketch that you like, like to do like a sketch that you know you've seen before. Like Kristen Wiig, like one of her like the target lady, let's say.

Yeah.

And she might be like, oh, I want to do a target lady. And she might be able to look at the next, you know, however many hosts we have booked and we didn't always have them all booked. But she'd be like, oh, you know who would be really fun. I want to do that with, you know, Ray Romano. I don't know why that, that wasn't my early host, like, and so she might save it. Like I'm going to do that for Ray Romano in four weeks. But other than that, it really was, it was like they made Monday with the host would come in at like 5:00 and that was the start of the show. And then writers would start writing and everything was created within that basically five day period.

Oh, so the host is part of that creative process the entire week.

The entire week. They are a big part of it.

And you don't have to name names, but I'm sure there have been times when the host is there like day two and you're like, oh, geez, I don't know if this is going to pan out.

I will say I found in my experience of 20 years that I was often pleasantly surprised. Even if people had a reputation for being kind of Hard to work with. You come into SNL and you are putting yourself out there. It is a live show. There is no. There's no. Not even a five second delay. And you are doing something that you've never done before for the most part. So you need people to help you. You need them to like you and to pull for you, and you need everyone to kind of rally around you. So typically, people were on good behavior. You know, once in a while you'd see someone on. On Tuesday or Wednesday and you'd be like, oof. They're not probably gonna be very good, or they're kind of a jerk. But like, I would say that didn't happen very often. The jerk part, sometimes you'd be like, this is gonna be rough. We're gonna have to really help them, you know, because think about it, it's a skill set, you know, live comedy, where you're doing 10 different, you know, characters or voices and impressions. Like, who does that? Very few people do that.

But then you'll get some people that are like, athletes, right? Like, I don't know if I'm thinking of Peyton Manning or Eli Manning, but one of them was almost great.

Peyton was amazing. Yeah. And it was such a surprise. It was, Yeah. I mean, I love Payton. I love both, both the guys. But like, it was. It was the best. You know, he came in and before he came to snl, I think everyone kind of thought he was a little bit boring, honestly. And. And then since then, everyone just like, he was. He was the greatest surprise. And the best part was, is, like, he didn't feel any pressure. You know, he didn't feel. I remember asking him because he was like, this ain't my day job. You know, I gotta go back and, like, I gotta throw footballs and I gotta be great on the field and like, you know, try and get another super bowl ring. I don't have to be good at this. And it ended up being that he was great. And I think it definitely changed the trajectory of, like, you know, the commercials and the things he's done, you know, based on.

Right. Sort of getting him seeing that he was out of his comfort zone. And he totally performed.

He's so funny.

You know who else is? I mean, there's so many obviously amazing, amazing guests. But I'm also curious about some of the pre tape stuff. Like Justin Timberlake's Dick in a Box is one of the greatest. It's one of the greatest. I mean, I just love that entire event. I thought so is that happening? That Week too? Or is that like, I tell you that.

I mean, I wish I could remember exactly the thing, but it was not a thing until Thursday night. Like, it was not. It wasn't this big idea they had. I really think then the guys have definitely talked about this in press. Like, they didn't really have any idea. And Lauren was like, no, you got to do one. And then I remember, I remember sitting in Lauren's office, probably with Jen.

Yeah.

Outside of the office. And like, the guys having to go in and talk to Lauren and like, Justin and Andy coming out and being like, I guess we'll try it. And that was like, Thursday at 6.

Oh, my God.

And then you film all day Friday. You know, you really film like a 20 hour day on Friday. And then the edit guy, the director and the Editors edit for 20 hours straight. And then you see what you saw.

I mean, it is just.

It is true chaos and it makes no sense. And yet it is at the heart of the magic of snl. Because I think if SNL had four weeks to do a show, it wouldn't be as good.

You know, you're so, you know, you.

Lose the, like, you. I mean, Lauren always used to say, like, you overthink things if you have too much time on your hands. And so there's something in the fact that you have to do it. You just, you don't have a choice. I remember saying to somebody, God, you know what it was, who it was? It was Chadwick Boseman who was the most wonderful, I mean, incredible actor. And he was such a joy to be around. And I remember him on Saturday, Saturday at like 5:00, just being like, I'm done with rehearsal. So that's it. You know, we have a dress rehearse in the live show. And he's like, yeah. He kind of looked at me like, oh, yeah. And I was like, you know, you have spent your whole career, like, spending six months, eight months preparing for roles.

Yeah.

You are. You have been given as much time as you need. Like, this is all the time you need to prepare for this.

Yeah.

This is a totally different thing. And like, you know, you don't need to know the backstory of, of each of these characters. You don't need. It's just like, I always make the joke of, like, fart doctors, fart doctor. We don't need to know where he comes from. You know, does he have a sister who cares? And. And, you know, it's. But that was quite often the thing of like, oh, my God, I cannot Believe I've only had. And don't forget, they don't start rehearsing sketches on their feet in a studio until Thursday. So you have Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, and that's it.

I've been to Jen was. I mean, so great, and had us to a rehearsal once. We went to a show once. I mean, so. I mean, it is incredible how it all kind of comes together. But you were mentioning you giving the pep talk on Fart Doctor, but that is one of the things that.

That's what I'd like to be known for.

Exactly.

Put that on my tombstone.

Exactly. That's your bumper sticker. I coach and talk about Fart Doctor. But that is something that all talent and people that know you talk about. One of your incredible gifts is making the guests feel comfortable. And that's part of why they're able to do what they do is by you kind of teeing it up for them in such a way that they're able to get out there and make it work, make it happen.

Yeah. I think that became a skill set for me, making people feel confident. And I think this is kind of still what I do in my. In my. In my next chapter, which is, like, creative problem solving and figuring out how to make people feel confident and, like, they can do anything.

Yeah.

You know, and. And helping them, even if they're nervous or sick or scared or unsure, like, no, you're gonna do this, and you're gonna get out there. And, I mean, it was a really beautiful experience to get to, like, go through that with so many different people, and it really bonds you. You know, it really, really bonds you to somebody, because it's just such an unusual life experience.

Well, unless they're, you know. Our oldest daughter is. She's at Interlochen Arts Academy. She wants to be an actor, and she started the improv group there. Anyway, and she's all these auditions coming up at schools, and she's like, you know, my friend went to Carnegie Mellon, and they're like, you gotta be a walrus. She's like. I mean, I just. I'm like, are you ready for that? She's like, oh, yeah, I'm. So if you're in that space, like the. If you're a comedian or you do improv, but for a lot of these people, to your point, they're on movie sets, they're preparing, they have acting coaches. They know backstory. It's a totally different experience than what they're doing on snl. Okay. So you go in, Jen introduces you to Marcy Klein or the woman that works with Marcy Klein. When do you meet Lorne Michaels and what is that like?

You know, it's funny, I don't remember. It's like, I don't remember because, you know, it's like, when you start the show, it's not like they're like, hey, now go meet Lauren. Michael, I wasn't working for Lauren, so, like, there was no, like. I mean, I'm sure Marcy, like, probably was like, lauren, meet my assistant. I don't remember the moment, but I do know the couple things that led to him, like, knowing who I was was a. That Marcy, like, believed in me. And I think she was talking about, like, oh, it's so nice to have a great assistant, whatever, something like that. But one of the big things was, like, Alec Baldwin, who hosted maybe my second season. Maybe my first second season, probably. And I remember him being one of the first people who was like, what's your deal? Tell me about that. What do you want to do? And we got to know. And I remember him saying something to Lauren and being like, she's special, and you need to take note of her. And so that helps. When people are talking about you in that kind of way, people pay attention. And so I. And then slowly, Marcy started giving me more and more to do and trusting me to be around more and more talent. And. And then Lauren started taking note, and then I. You know, I just kind of started becoming much more part of the. The material. Like, people. You just would see me. I was always there, and the cast trusted me and liked me. And so it just became, you know, I became part of the fabric of the show.

How. Have you seen the movie Saturday Night yet?

I haven't. I haven't.

So I just watched it. What'd you think? I thought it was good. I thought it was good, but it was funny because the actor who played Lauren, I just. The cadence of how he speaks and everything, he's almost a caricature. I was just like, this guy's doing, you know, doing a great job. But I just. Because he's such an icon, I would think when you meet him for the first time or you have that kind of contact with him, I'm sure after you've been around him a bunch, it kind of all sort of seems normalized. But you're like, the voice and the whole. I mean, I don't know. It's just he's such a presence.

I'm sure there was very, like, listen, SNL was a. Like, Young people. It was a big part of my high school. I mean, I just remember, like, sitting there and like. Like, I loved when they did, like, backstage monologues, and you got to. I loved when Lauren was in the show. Like, I remember thinking that when I was a kid. So I'm sure there were. There were so many pinch me moments, though.

Yeah.

It wasn't just Lauren. I was just, like, I was a girl from Buffalo, New York, who had very little show business experience. And all of a sudden, it was like I was doing things I couldn't even believe. I didn't even know these were jobs. And all of a sudden, I was just, like, spending time with all these amazing people who I looked up to or who I'd seen on the film screen or, you know, musicians. And so everything was a pinch me moment. Everything I did was a pinch me moment. And so Lauren was part of it. But I think it was like, once I started to become, like, you know, I started to get promoted and I was doing more with him, you know, it was really cool to get to learn from him and be close enough to really pick up on. On how he produced the show. And that really. That's when it started to really click for me, is when I got to, like, learn things from Marcy, learn things from him, and see how it comes together.

Well, I thought it was really interesting what you said about Lauren saying that if you had more time, it wouldn't be the show. That it is part of the magic and the creativity is that just that buildup and having it be such a short period of time and that whole process that he laid out.

Well, I remember, like, specifically SNL hosts. Like, we would keep them so busy on Fridays, they would work. I mean, Kim Kardashian, I remember, like, on her show, she's like, I worked a 22 hour day. I mean, we would keep them busy. And yes, it was because they had to rehearse eight sketches. And then they used to probably do film, two film pieces. But also there was some kind of background to, like, if they're not busy, they're gonna start overthinking things, right? They're gonna start like, oh, my God, is this sketch funny enough? I'm not funny here. I mean, we always used to laugh at, like, when people have time and they can overthink a sketch, they start being like, oh, we should add. We should add things like, I need a mustache in this sketch. I mean, we always. Men would add mustaches and women would add braces, you know, like, and you'd be like, you don't.

By the way, adding braces. I didn't even think about that.

I mean, in my head, think of so many women hosts who added braces, you know, and then like, Lauren would be like, why does this person have braces? You know, they don't need braces.

Just because it.

Just because you get nervous, you know, but it's such a. Like, you are so out of your comfort zone. Even if you're an actor, even if you're a comedian, you're still like, pushing yourself to the limit. So you just start being like, what's gonna, what's gonna make it the best braces? You know, a handlebar mustache.

So you mentioned Alec Baldwin. Is there another host or one host? Or maybe it's too hard to pinpoint just one, but that really stands out in your mind as one that you kind of loved working with. Or.

I mean, it's like, I could. I mean, I could go list. I mean, like Melissa McCarthy. I mean, I mean, we can go through all the customers that I, that I love and that were like, dear, dear friends, but like, hosts like Melissa McCarthy, Emma Stone, Tom Hanks, Dwayne the Rock Johnson. I mean, I could. I literally, like, there's so few that I don't love and appreciate. Issa Rae, Adele.

Have you written a book?

No. You should, you should see the. My. My apartment is many, many, many, many post it notes. I have so many. I look like. I look like A Beautiful Mind. You know, someone's like, what is this one? You know, it's like you're like, carry long shoots, you know, homeless man. And I'm like, oh, that's a story for another day.

You're like, Carrie from Homeland. You need to get by the way.

You.

You should, but. You should.

My girlfriends are all like, hey, are we gonna wrap up this whole Beautiful Mind thing soon? It's been years, but I kind of. I love it. And especially now that I'm doing a lot of speaking. It's just, it's nice to be able to, like, look up and see just also, like reminders of, like, these beautiful. I mean, every single thing is like an incredible memory. It's just like, it's just. It's really cool.

But I think you could. You could take all these great experiences that you had and marry it into what the work that you're doing now about the lessons. Like, you know, whether it's you sending, you know, the birthday gift to your first boss or Alec Baldwin being gracious and, you know, mentioning you to Lauren, you know, all these things, it turns.

Out you actually have to write it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I know.

So that would be the only problem right now. But, yes, I think. Have you talked to many people in my life who are. Are they feeding you this?

No, I just, literally, I mean, listen, this is. I come up with these great ideas on the fly. I'm just. But I, I do have some ghostwriter friends. We can. We can talk offline. But I really think these are such interesting because you're seeing all these people in really vulnerable, you know, states and just sort of. I think it's just an interesting lesson for people to know that even if you're. You are Kim Kardashian, you can, you know, find yourself in pushing yourself and trying something new and all that stuff.

I have to tell you in the majority of. I don't talk about the bad stuff. Like, I wouldn't. I don't talk about the, The. The tea. That. Yeah, like, I'm not. That's not what I, I would ever talk about. But it's like, it was the coolest and greatest experience of. I mean, obviously learning, but just, like, understanding people and their needs and their desires and how to build connection. I mean, it was just like, I'm so grateful. I can't even believe I got to have that, because it's just the coolest.

I also was thinking about you as I was researching you for today's conversation, that you have so many people who really owe a lot of their career to you, and then seeing them, like, for example, Kristen Wiig.

[Leslie Heaney]

I know.

[Lindsay Shookus]

Or I read an article that, you know, you had seen her tape, and I don't know if you brought it to Marcy, but you brought it to someone higher up and said, you know.

Yeah.

And then to see her career and all the incredible things that she's done. I mean, what.

I mean, I feel, you know, with Kristen, I mean. But here's the thing. Kristen is. Kristen, like, like, she's. She's the one who's done it. I feel proud that I get to be, like, a small part of the foundation that, like, gave her, you know, the place to do it. But, I mean, she's just incredible, you know? Like, the thing is, like, I just helped support her, you know, I just helped, like, yeah, give her, like, the foot up to kind of get the. Get the place to do it. But I do feel proud. I mean. Yeah, but I feel happy. Like, I feel so happy getting to see all of my old SNL friends do all These cool things, you know, Even if it's like, even the people who, like, didn't make it, you know, they've only made it one season. Like, it's just I always wanted everyone to succeed. So the fact that I get to see some of these people who only maybe made it one or two years go do, like, really cool products elsewhere, it's like. Yeah, because you, you hired them because you're like, they're funny. Lauren always used to say, like, if you get to the audition process, you're funny. Like, there's no, you know, if you're, if you're auditioning for SNL and you are on that monologue stage and you are doing an audition for Lorne Michaels and all the producers, you're funny. There's no, there's no second guessing that. It's just that, like, are you the right fit? Does it.

Right.

All the other things, do those work out? But, like, you're funny and so you kind of always. It's just, it's. It's been nice to see these people or even the people we didn't hire, you know, like, how many of them are super successful now?

I'm trying to think of some of the stories of people that weren't hired.

You probably never, like, Jim Carrey auditions and, you know, obviously, I think he's done pretty well. Yeah, there's plenty of people. And there's also some people who, like, there's like, Lord, like Steve Carell. I remember there's like a rumor he auditioned, but then I remember talking to Steven Steve, like, I didn't audition. His wife was on the show.

Okay.

Oh, I didn't see it on the show, but he, he was not. But there's like, you know, there's plenty of people who. Or who were. Right. Who audition. They became writers, and then you never really knew them, and then now they're actors.

Right.

So it's really fun to get to see people leave and do awesome things once when you're part of the, of the beginning.

So Kristen Wiig, I know you're close friends with her. She's. You guys have gone out dancing or something or she likes to go out.

She's definitely my girl. Yeah, we, we love each other.

[Leslie Heaney]

So.

[Lindsay Shookus]

30 Rock.

Yeah.

You were a producer on 30 Rock?

I was an associate producer. I don't want to, like, be like, I was like, you know, running it, but I was, I worked on it.

Tina Fey, who I absolutely adore. Her older daughter and our oldest child were in preschool together for three years and that was sort of at the justice. 30 Rock was starting, and it was. And she and I. I have a karaoke problem like you have a dancing problem. So we had a great karaoke night. And Tina, she did, like, Bangles Eternal Flame.

That's a good one.

Which was good, but it was not. She really. Her second one, which was rehab, was incredible.

Yeah, she had. She had to warm up.

She. Well, listen, she was excellent. I don't want to hear the Bangles sing Eternal Flame, but I love watching Tina sing Eternal Fl. But then we did a. We did a duet, and I really. I told her she could. You know, she could choose. She's like, are we gonna do. What are we gonna do? And so she picked that. I was Lionel, and my husband was like, I've never seen something more disturbing in my entire life. I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, your excitement level. I was like. I mean, I was forehead to forehead.

What did you guys sing?

We sang Endless Love. We sang Endless Love.

Oh, okay.

I was Lionel, and she was Dinah Ross.

Genius.

Anyway, she's just terrific. And my daughter reached out to her, I don't know, a year and a half ago and emailed her and was like, can I interview you for my school on Zoom? And she said, yes. And anyway, she's just such a lovely person and so talented, and she's another snl. Obviously, a lot of people work with and see her, you know, go on and do so many incredible things.

I mean, I came in to snl and there were so many, like, strong women leader. You know, Like, I had Maya Rudolph, Amy Poehler, Tina Fey. Like, I just. And Tina was a head writer at the. At the show at the time. So I got to really learn from some pretty phenomenal women.

When I came in, didn't Marcy. Did Marcy also go work on 30 Rock?

Yeah. So she was an executive producer on 30 Rock.

She was an executive producer. Okay.

She brought me along, and Alec was there. And Alec. Tina and Alec were liked me. And I kind of just came over and helped whenever I could in any way I could. I always used to say, like, I was a job collector, personnel. And I kind of did a little of that at 30 Rock of just like, where does. Where do people need support and help? And I would just find ways. And I was like, that's fine. I got it now. You don't have to do it. Don't worry. I know you didn't want to. I'm happy to do it, you know? And so I just Kind of was a job collector in my early years at both shows.

That's amazing. It's such a great. I mean, I've been watching reruns because my kids have been watching it. I'm like, there's just someone liners in there. And Alec Baldwin is so brilliant. I can't. I mean, he's just.

I should go back and rewatch it.

You should. It's like I forgot. I mean, Tracy Morgan, the whole thing is like so snl. You mentioned that your husband was next door and that your daughter was a part of the whole thing. What was it like being a mom and trying to juggle. Juggle that with your work?

You know, it's like you don't know any other way, so you just, you just do it. I mean, I. I took like. I think I took like five and a half weeks off and I came back and I just felt like I needed to be there. I felt a lot of pressure to show up and a lot of pressure to like run my. I had just become a producer. I'd just become head of the talent department. You know, it's like I just felt like I had to show up. And so I just. I kind of figured it out. I mean, I. I don't remember much of those couple years. You know, like, it was definitely really hard and it was a hard time. I also once. And then, you know, soon after that, my marriage started failing and that was hard. So it just. It's not like I go back and be like, have all these like great memories of those couple, those first years. Cause it was just really hard. I was working constantly, trying to juggle being mom, trying to figure out my marriage and what was gonna happen with it. And so, yeah, it was really hard. But on the flip side, I just did it, you know, like, it's like I just didn't really think about it. And I was fortunate to have a, you know, a great nanny who could be flexible. And it was hard. The hardest part, honestly was that my ex husband worked there and when we were still together. And so we had this daughter and we were both working crazy hours. And so in the beginning, that was the hardest part is just like, wait a second, we're both working 80 plus hours and we have a kid and we work the same 80 plus hours and we work on Saturdays. Like, how is this going to work? Fortunately, Seth Meyers asked Kevin, my ex, to go if he'd go work for his new show, Late Night with Seth Meyers. So when my daughter was about less than A year. So he left to go do Seth. And so that kind of helped us figure out hours, but that was. Yeah.

I don't know. I feel like the first three months is like, shock and awe. Like.

Yeah. I just.

You just don't really know what you're in for. And it's. It's like, I, I. Yeah. I guess the only good part in your case is that you're used to being. Being up for, like, a lot of hours, but then the days that you're off, you need to kind of catch up. And, like, it's just.

It was just pure. It was just pure chaos. And, you know, the only thing I look back on it and I remember, if I could go back and change anything, the one thing I would change is like, I. I was so hard on myself and I treated breastfeeding like an Olympic sport.

Yeah.

And it didn't work for me. Like, it just. And I. But I was convinced I could do it and I held onto that and I. I ruined myself trying to do it and do it the best I could. And I did it for five months and it was. It was pure torture. And I, you know, I. I couldn't give her enough. So I would breastfeed and then I would pump, and then I would, you know, give her formula. And I did it eight times a day. And I was waking up in the middle of the night and I. That I would go back and be.

Like, give yourself a break.

Like, you don't have to do this.

Oh, my God.

You know, I would have. That I would change, because I think that would have given me a little bit more presence to not feel so. So. But I just was like, I'm gonna.

I do think there needs to be some sort of a. Like a come to Jesus for moms on that. Cause I had the same. Had the same pressure and I had the same issues. And I'm like, what is going on? I saw Brooke Shields in Blue Lagoon. Like, they're just supposed to figure it out and know how to do it. You're supposed to know how to do it and.

Well, let me ask you this. Here's the question.

Yeah.

When I look back on it, I don't think it was about my daughter. I think it was about me. I was trying, like, I kept remain like, well, three months sounds better than two months. And like, it was like, what I. What I want? It wasn't like, I'm, Like, I wasn't like, oh, my God, her health is not gonna be. She's not gonna be okay. I was just very much like. But when I say it, I was, like, more thoughtful. I'll never forget that when I was. I had to go on a casting trip with Lauren and the producers that summer, so I had my daughter in February. It was like, you know, July. And I. And I had to go on a trip to Chicago. And I was like, I just. How am I gonna. We're on buses. Like, what am I gonna do? And I was like, I gotta stop. And I remember going to. I remember going to the upper breast side.

Oh, I went there too. Yeah, I was. I was sized, by the way. There is. I have no shame. I could take Michael. I could take my top off, right? I mean, after that experience of being, like, measured by the women and the whole thing.

But going to the upper brass side, where I had been, where I'd been renting my, you know, hospital grade pump that I carried with me everywhere I went. And I remember going there and being like, hey, do you guys have any advice on, like, weaning off breastfeeding? And they were. It was like. And they were all like, what do you mean? And I was like, well, you know, I have to go on a. Well, you need to. They were. I mean, when I tell you the judgment. And I finally was like, oh, you know what? You're right. I'll just keep doing it just so I could get out of the store.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then I, like, sat on the sidewalk and cried, probably. But, yeah, I just remember being like, this is crazy.

I can't. I can't believe the upper breast side ladies turned my. I mean, I could see, like, the La Leche League or whatever I'd get all my information from.

Interesting. Yeah, it was. And it was not. It was more than one. It was like. It was out of. It was out of.

They're like, we fitted you. We gave you all the equipment.

You have the hospital grade pump at home. What more do you need?

Yeah, there is a. There is a lot.

This is a pumping podcast, right?

Yeah, exactly. We can. We're gonna. We're gonna just take snippets.

Is there an ad for a company?

We should definitely do that. At least. You know, we've both survived it. We both survived it. I'd rather deliver. I'd rather be one of those women that gives birth with their doorman in the lobby again than go through breastfeeding again with all three kids. It was no fun. All right, so you did not have a favorite host. Was there one show that kind of, like, really stood out for you at the end, you sort of thought, gosh, I felt like everything came together that.

You know, I would say the show that stays in my head, other than, like, the 40th anniversary, which was like, a really, you know, huge endeavor, but the show that stays in my head. And I'm not sure it's even for what you. What you just asked, but the Betty White show. Betty White, Jay Z. I remember thinking, like. I remember just being like, this is special. She was so special. I mean, Betty White was probably one of the most phenomenal people to work with and. And get to experience. And I just work with. You know, I always work for the talent so closely. So I really got to know Betty White.

How old was she when she.

88.

Amazing.

And she ate, like, she asked for, like, Snickers bars and hot dogs. And, like, at one point, she's like, can I have a vodka? Like, she was. And I remember at the. The. I'll never forget, the party was at a place called Doc's Oyster Bar, which I don't think is there anymore, and, like, the 40s on the east side. And I remember being there and Betty walking in to the party and everyone, like, standing up and clapping and. And I, like, just, like. I honestly, like, got tears in my eyes. I started crying just thinking of, like, how lucky are you that you got to work with this woman? Yeah, she's a legend. And I actually wrote her a note. I. I don't. There's not many people I wrote handwritten notes to, but I actually wrote her a letter because I felt so touched by, like, the fact that I got to, like, have that experience with her.

I just. She was so funny. And if you look at clips, like, you know, even from before she was on Golden Girls and then all the things she did afterwards, she was so.

Yeah, but it was so.

It just.

It was so effortless. It was so effortless. Every move she made was so. It just was funny. And also, she was so kind. And so, I mean, we. I remember when we produced the Emmys, and that would have been in, like, 2018, we did this whole thing of, like, having this, like, moment for her. I think it was the last time she was ever on television. We had her come out and even just seen her then, you know, it was 10 years later, like, she still was, like, funny and kind.

That's amazing. Yeah, that's gonna be part of your book, too. Like, I like, you know, that kind of thing. Just what. What makes per. A person impression. Yeah, these wonderful, funny and kind is The.

Are you writing the stuff down for me?

I am. I'm taking notes in my head. I'm gonna get my. Post it.

[Leslie Heaney]

Can we get AI to do something with this?

[Lindsay Shookus]

Exactly.

Thank you.

So you leave snl and what was that experience like? Meaning? Like, you get. You get to sleep in. Your pace of life has changed. You've got time for your daughter, and then you're thinking about.

Yeah.

Your next steps.

Well, I would say this. It's really. Anyone who's left a job that they've been at for a really long time knows it is, like, especially, I want to point out, is my entire adult life.

Yeah.

22 to 42. So it is. It's incredibly scary, you know, it's incredibly scary. It's like your entire identity, you know, These people were my family and my friend. Like, they were everything to me. And I was just. I was. I was. I drank the Kool Aid, you know, I poured the Kool Aid. So it was actually made.

It poured it.

I was like, want some more? You're out. I see you're out. Would you like some more? So it was incredibly scary. I like, you know, I just was like, who am I and who are my real friends and who. Who now that I don't have the coolest job in the world? Which is what everyone always told me, like, who actually still likes me? But on the flip side of that, I got my life back in a way that I didn't even know I was missing, because I had never had it. You know, I didn't know people went to exercise classes on Saturdays. I didn't know people went to. I mean, I knew people went to brunch, but I never really experienced it. My best friend Kristin, by the way, I went to her Christmas party in December, and she's like, you know, this is only this second Christmas party of mine you've ever been to. And the only other one was the strike, the writer's strike, because we were off in December. I just never went to weddings parties. I just wasn't around. And so, you know, I'd say for the first year, on a Saturday night, like, I'd walk into the door to have a party, and I'd be like, look who's at a party. You know, I couldn't get over the freedom I had. And I would say the biggest impact for me was. Was my time with my daughter. I mean, obviously, like, my partner and my friends and my family and getting to go on trips and stuff. But, like, I got to. I never had dinner with My daughter. I never had dinner with my daughter ever. And so the fact that I was home, you know, and I remember one time. I'm sure, you know, she'll listen to this years and love that I'm telling the story, but I think it was like a year and a half ago or maybe two years ago. I was like sitting on a chair in my apartment and Maddie walked in the door from. From school. It must have been fourth grade, so two years ago. And she. They just started like a puberty unit. And she walked in the door and she runs to me and I'm sitting there and she's like, mom. I mean, mom, like we have. And she's holding the book and she's like, we have some stuff to talk about. She's like, girl. She was like, girlfriend, we gotta talk. And I remember thinking like, I would have never been here. Yes, I would have never been in this chair. But the bigger thing is if I had been in this chair, I wouldn't have been here. I was always just like, I was in the wrong place. I was never in the right place. I was always leaving work too early to get home for bedtime. And I was always not home for bedtime in time. And when I was there for bedtime, I was just trying to get her to bed so I could get back on my phone because there was problems to handle. And I was just really. I lacked so much presence in my life. Granted, I had this great gift of this job that was incredible and gave me so many gifts, but I lacked presence. And so I'd say the biggest change in my life is like, I am. I am present. I am here. I'm here with you. I'm not worried about looking at my phone. I am. I'm also in control of who I work with and what I do and where I put my. My creative life force. And, you know, and I've never had that before. And I get to choose the power. And the power of choice is a tremendous gift, you know, and I'm. I'm extremely lucky to have it.

I think anytime you kind of switch gears, particularly as you said, at a job where you grew up there and so much of your life, I mean, most of your life is tied up in that because of the amount of time that you're there and all the effort that you put into it, it is so growthful to step out of that for a minute, no matter what you're doing, and sort of see, put yourself in a position where it is scary and it is new and you're growing from that and you're getting to, you know, have brunch on Sunday and dinner with your daughter.

Yeah, I think I, what, what it has taught me is this idea of, like, we always want to, like, have it all figured out. Like, it's going to be like, well, you know, where are you going to be in five years? What's the goal? What are you going to do? And what I'm learning or have learned. And I, like, it's probably more like what I'm learning is like, you know, we have this thing of like, oh, my God, like, what could happen? Like, oh, like, you know, what bad things could happen? And it's like changing the mindset to be like, oh, my God, I don't even know what could happen. Like, who even knows where I'll be in five years, you know? And I had a good friend who said to me after I left, and he was like, you know, you had one of the greatest jobs you had. You had like a quintessential like, like once in a lifetime job at a once in a lifetime show. You can't compete with that again, like, you're, you're not going to, like, you can't go remake that someplace else. So don't try, like, figure out what you want to do now and, and then, and then kind of chase it in whatever way you want. I also have a friend who says, go where there's light and heat.

Yeah.

And you have to be present for that. And I'd say that's kind of the theme now of like, where, where is their energy? Where am I liking the way I feel as opposed to like, what's cool or what do I have to do? I'm like, what, how do I, how do I feel? Am I feeling good with this person? Am I feeling like this is a, a place I want to put my energy? Okay, then this is a. I'm going to double click on it and it, and it's, it might be something I've never done before. And like, okay, I can do it.

So it's 2018. You're still at SNL then, but you decide to start.

Oh, women were.

Women work fucking hard.

Women work fucking hard.

Which is, I mean, as we both know, very, very, very true. What was the, like, what was the impetus for that? And you have a, you have a co founder.

I do. So my. It's my best friend, Kristen. Honestly, it wasn't like, And I want to be very clear, women work fucking hard is really a women's community that's about trying to help women be better at helping women.

Right.

It's not anti man. We love men. Kristen and I both had, Kristin had her, her, her career was based in like finance and, and being on trading floor. So both of us had so many men who helped us where, where we ended up being in our careers. But it's really, we kind of realized that like we're just not as good of it. Good at it as some of the men that we were working with. Of like really trying to think of like, how can I help the women around me get better? You know, how can I help grow their businesses, get leadership positions even just like, how can I help them in the day to day life? And so we, it was meant to be a one off. We were going to have a party. I had a friend who was trying to grow a business in New York. Yeah, she was struggling. I was like, I can help you. I called Kristen. I was like, let's have a party. Let's call women, work fucking hard and let's invite 50 interesting women. Not our friends.

Yep.

And let's have them come. And, and what ended up happening is with a lot of people walk in the door and they're like, why are we here? Like, they kind of thought we were going to like ask for money or like ask them to join a timeshare. And at the end of it they're like, what's the catch? And I was like, you know what the catch is? The catch is I want you to find three women in this room that you didn't know before and figure out a way you can help them. And that kind of like became the mission of just like, what if you walk into a room and you're not like, how are these people going to help me? What if you go into a room and you're like, I bet I can help some people here. And between your resources and your network and your brain power and your purchasing power and your voice, there's a lot you can do, you know, and so it's just trying to help people get better at helping people.

You've been doing this since 2018, but you've have, you've had events everywhere. How often do you do it during the year? You know, the funny thing is we.

Don'T have a, we don't have a total system down. We do it when we want to.

Yeah.

We're actually thinking about women. Ricard national, by the way.

Oh, good.

Well, it's one of our, it's one of our few. We just did One in Chicago. We are going to do one in Austin. That's our next.

Awesome.

And we kind of, we find events we want to be a part of or we did a great holiday market with like 12 women founders in. Right. In December where we connected with, we collaborated, collaborated with a nonprofit called Shop Repurpose. And we, we got all these women to sell stuff for the holidays. And we just do events when we, when we can. You know, it's. Neither of us are full time jobs, so we. Yeah, yeah, we do it when we can and when we feel passion. And the great thing is it's just the two of us, so we get to make the decisions. And also I'm highly aware that we have something pretty magical and it's small but mighty. And I, I think scaling. A lot of times people scale too quickly and they, and they lose magic. So I'm just like, we've got something good. Let's just be really thoughtful about what we do and make sure we can, whatever we choose, we can do it great. And let's not, let's not get greedy and like, think we have to like open a, you know, a clubhouse, you know, you know, maybe that will be in, in the card someday. But right now we're just like, let's do what we do really well. And so we, we pick things we're passionate about and with, with partners we really like and, and we do it so women work hard. Austin will be this spring.

Are you still sort of sticking with the 50 women model or is it larger or smaller?

We typically go bigger. I mean, now New York's up to 200. Oh, wow. Chicago was about 100 women. But we, it's intimate, you know, we don't want it to be a thousand people because the idea is that you're supposed to like make.

Meet people and connect with those people. Yeah. So in addition to doing all that, you're also doing a lot of space speaking. Yeah, tell me about that. So there's one. You have this kind of like sort of three tenants. I'm sure you talk about a lot of different topics, but I mean, the.

Big thing I talk about is like trust and connection.

Yeah.

Like, I think the crux of what I did at my job for 20 years was like building trust. And like, I had to do it really quickly. I do it really fast. I'd meet someone on Monday.

You have to, I mean, you've got the four days.

I mean. But I basically would meet someone on Monday and by Wednesday they needed to trust me. So it's Kind of like, I think trust is, like, you know, at the forefront of what most of us do in business and in life, and yet I don't think we really think about that much. So it's kind of like breaking it down of, like, how can you build trust quickly? And the things I talk about are vulnerability, credibility, and adaptability. And I kind of go into, like. It's a lot of storytelling, which has been so fun to get to do and be on stages. But then it's also, like, action items, like, how do you actually do it? Like, what is the. Like, give me something. Because I. I'm too, like, practical. I'm my mother's daughter. Like, you need to learn something from. Yeah, I'm going to do it. You got to pick something up. So it's been. It's been the greatest joy. I've been, like, traveling all over the country, and it's also fun to do something that you're. Like, I made, like. It's like it came out of my brain, you know, for so long, for so many years, I was, like, part of a cog and a machine that created something awesome. But, like, it's like me. And I write it, and then I. And then I rehearse it, and then I. And then I do it, and it's. And I get to have, like, real impact, and I feel it. It's really. It's been really special and so rewarding, and it's. It's something that I've always enjoyed, but I didn't realize. I never thought I'd get the chance to do it like I am right now. And it's. I mean, like, the gratitude I have for it. It's just been. It's been amazing.

Well, the. By the way, that's the outline for your book is you. You have. You should structure it. You talk about the vulnerability. Right. And you have examples, like, in your speaking. Right. About.

Oh, it's all the stories. Yeah. And it's like, things that I. And this won't surprise you, but the thing I talk about in the vulnerability section is all about how becoming a mother, like, completely cracked me open and how before I had my daughter, I didn't really understand the power of vulnerability and what it could do for connection. And then having Maddie just basically, like, fully changed everything about me. And I kind of get into that, you know, that experience. And then Melissa McCarthy was my first host back, and, like, what that experience was like with her. And then Vince Vaughn was the next guy back, and, like, you know, and so it's just, it's a lot of fun stories and, and I, I require myself to be vulnerable because it's like, you know, if I'm going to talk about it, I got to do it. And, and same with adaptability. I talk a lot about, about being coachable and, and like learning how to be good at taking feedback. And the same exact thing goes. That's not my strong suit. I've never been like, I've never been the most coachable person. And let me tell you something, I work so hard now on being coachable and, and always searching out for feedback on all my talks and watching myself and producing myself and being like, you can get better, you can get better. How do you get better?

Oh, that's, you do talk about that in your speaking. Right? But when you go to do your speaking engagement, because I also am not, I'm not. I think most people are not great and taking feedback, by the way.

It's like why it's the best thing to talk about because every single person needs it. Like, find me, you know, athlete. I always. Athletes are great at it because they spent their whole lives, you know, since they were little. If you're, if you're a star athlete, you've been told over and over and over again what you've been doing wrong and, and you can't be offended. You have to, you have to use it. So athletes are usually pretty good about it, but the rest. Yeah, the rest of us was suck. We suck.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, totally. So when you're giving or do you have like, is there after your speaking engagement, are you talking to people at the reception after and they're giving you feedback? Or is it like a, it depends.

I mean, sometimes I recently got like an entire Excel sheet. I got a seven page Excel sheet of what people wrote about me, you know, and I was just like, let's go through it, you know, each line, let's read it. There was one time I did a Q and A, and in the Q and A that she, she asked me, she was like, so are you. You're open to feedback from. And I go, yeah, if anybody here wants to give me feedback, not for nothing, somebody wanted to give me feedback. I was on a zoom three weeks later getting feedback about.

Really?

Yeah, yeah, Guy. And by the way, I really appreciate what he. And he said something to me that actually made me change the top of my talk. And I think it's a really great ad now that he inspired. So I, you gotta, you gotta practice.

You gotta put yourself out there.

Yeah.

Yeah. I have gotten a lot of unsolicited feedback and solicited but unsolicited feedback from friends and listeners on the, on the podcast. And I have. I am growing in that space.

Yeah. You know what I've also learned from talk, from speaking, is that. Yeah. When you ask for feedback, to be specific, to be like, hey, you know, don't just be like, what do you think? Because then you can really get anything. And now.

Yeah.

But like, you know, really, like, in the areas of like. Like. I remember once I was giving. Oh, my God, last January, I was giving a talk to 2,000 people. Right. That was big. I was like, this is a lot of people.

Where, where it was in the city.

It was okay. You know, it was like huge. And it was the day beforehand and I was feeling good. I was like, I know this, this is good. I'm rocking it. I was ready to go. And I, I said to my man, I was like, hey, you know, and it's. By the way, it's really vulnerable to, like. But you have to practice. And they say, you know, you're told to practice in front of people. And I was like, hey, can I do this for you? And he's like, sure. Again, the night before. And I was like, okay, great. And I give him a notebook. I'm like, write some stuff down. You know, when you. And. And I do it. And at the end of it, he's like, I don't think whatever the title was, he was like, I don't think that should be the title. I think it should be this completely different idea. And I was like, but that's just. That's the crux of the entire talk is. Is the title I just gave. And he's like, yeah, but I don't think it. That should be. That should be the theme. And I'm like, but it's tomorrow. Yeah, it's tomorrow at 9:00am It's 6:00. What I should have done is been like, hey, if there's anything you don't understand, like, this is what it's going to be tomorrow.

Yes.

But if there's anything. If I'm speaking too fast, if I'm speaking too slow, if I'm not enunciating, if you don't understand a story. But I should have been like, don't just give me, like, blanket. Like, this isn't working because, you know, I was going on stage the next day.

Yeah.

So I've learned that you sometimes need to be specific.

So what did you do what? What did you stick with your.

Yeah, I was like, I'm doing this talk. And by the way, I haven't done it since. That talk doesn't exist and it will not exist again. I, you know, that was a one time thing and I've learned now, like, okay, how can I make that one better? And it's all changed. But like, you know, at the time there was no, like, okay, we have time for a rewrite. I mean, you're going on stage in front of 2,000 people. I mean, God bless them.

We're going to talk after this about the book. Because I just, I see this whole thing happening, but I. But in your mind, forget about what I think in your mind, what is next for you or what is your next thing that you're interested in pursuing?

I mean, I think I'd go back to what I said kind of before, which is like, I don't have it all planned out. I'm working on this documentary that will come out this summer, which I'm excited to finally, like, have it be out there in the world. And that's been a really. By the way, if you had told me three years ago I was into a documentary, I would have been like, what? You know, like, also same thing. If you. 3 years ago I'd been speaking around the country, I would have been like, what are you talking about? So I'm realizing that, like, life is full of surprises and chapters and I'm. So what I would say is like, I don't know exactly. I have been doing so many things I never thought I'd be doing. I'm coaching, I'm consulting. I'm, you know, I'm. Right now I have a script I'm working on with my part. One of my creative partners and potentially a podcast, because everybody has a podcast. You should book, you know, who knows? I don't know. I actually don't know. What I can tell you is like, my, my thing is like, I'm working with good people.

Yeah.

Or I used to. Like, I get to choose my own now.

Yeah. Yes, yes.

Get to choose them. I can do it. I've worked with many, but it's a choice I make now. And so I just am looking to work with great people and do things that bring me joy and I feel connected to. And so I'm not saying that to be vague. I'm saying it because it really is the driving force. I talked to someone today before I came here. I'm now like next week having a lunch with her and I'm like, I might be working on a project that I would have never worked on. It's so in left field. But I might be doing it now.

But it's all. What did you say, Earl? It's about the light. You said light and heat. Following the light and heat.

My friend Naomi gets credit for that. Light and heat and like, and really listening, like, you know, paying attention, like. And by the way, when I say that, it's not the cool stuff I did all the cool stuff, like, now it's stuff that I'm like, wow. Like, I get to use these skills and all these things I've picked up and put them to use in a way that I never thought possible and that is really satisfying. People might not think it's cool, but I don't really give a fuck.

Yeah. Well, I think the other thing that you said really resonated with me too, is that, you know, when you're part of. You had this, you know, as you said, the most exciting job, amazing job, but you were part of a larger creative process of. You're part of a. Of a. As you. I think you said, cog in a wheel. You're part of this thing. And now you're in a position where you do get to pick, you know, what you do when you do it, how you do it. And you're the one creating. Creating it. Which just to be creative, I think is really not talked about enough of the importance of that for a person to really kind of own their thing. Because when you participate in. And I've done it throughout my life, I'm a covering matrimonial lawyer. Like, when you work for larger organizations or things, and you can feel great about your work and make incredible contributions, but you're still part of something. But this is something that's. These are your projects and you are also Vermont.

I mean, it really is like mine. Yeah, it didn't exist before I did it and. And I never realized that that was something that I was missing in my life. You know, I mean, I was, you know, when I look back to, like, who I was as a kid, I was always very creative. And my mom would tell you I came out like a little producer. I was like, producing everything. Right. You know, but then I got to SNL and it was like I was doing thing that I was really good at. But now it's just been fun to like, be able to kind of like, the world is your oyster. Like, who knows? Like, I mean, I could have a production company in five years. I Could be, you know, producing documentaries. I could be working at a company that I wouldn't even imagine. I don't. I don't know. I am. But I'm. I am open, and I have, like. It's like a shoulders back, palms up attitude of, like. I'm just. I'm after good people and things that, like, fill my cup. And I realize that the fact that I get to have the luxury of. Of choosing those things is incredible. You know, not everybody gets that choice. I do. And I'm. I mean, God, it's cool. And I'm learning so much. It's just been, like, astounding.

Well, I think whenever you're learning, if you're learning and creative and you're pushing yourself like that, it's really where the. Where fulfillment, I think, comes. Right. Is.

And. Yeah. And getting to be curious. Like, I love, like, I always talk about, like, the art of discovery, and, like, I never Google any. I don't Google anyone. I. I don't. Like, I'm just not someone who, like. I mean, people will be like, you don't prepare. I'm like, I prepare enough. I don't want to know anything about a person personally because I'm like, that's fun for me. Curiosity, asking great questions and getting to know people. And, like, you know, it's just so fun. So, yeah, curiosity and learning, I think, are really, like, driving, and good people are driving this next chapter. And, you know, one of my friends came over and said, you know, one thing we all kind of wish we knew when we were younger is that, like, life is full of chapters.

Yes.

You know, and, like, we all think it's gonna be, oh, well, the door opens, and then here it goes, and it's like. And then it's that door forever, and it's straight into the right, and it's like, it's chapters. And what I'm finding important is and figuring out ways to put each book on the shelf and know why it's there and love that book and appreciate that book and not have resentment or anything towards each of these chapters or books, but then. But then able to move on to the next one. And it's not a total science. You know, you can have wobbly days.

Yeah.

I can tell you this. Like, there were definitely real wobbly days. Like, the first year after leaving SNL where I was just like, oh, my God, like, what the. Who am I? But now I'm like, I'm confident in just, like, in the movement. I'm, like, moving forward, and it's exciting. And we don't have to have it all figured out.

No, no, you don't. I. And I. But I think that's something that you've learned through, through your life experience. I wish I could go back to my 20something self who thought I had to have it all figured out and thought there was a linear path.

Yes.

But if you're like following what if you're enjoying what you're doing, you're. And you're, as you said, doing what you were good at. Like, there's a lot of positiveness in that. When you find something like, I really. I'm enjoying this and I'm good at it. But this doesn't have to be the last thing that I'm doing. And by doing that, I can take these skills and these interests and this love for this thing and translate it into so many other things.

That's exactly it. The other thing I would add is like, you're bound to make mistakes. I think that part, you know, perfectionist and like people pleaser. Lindsay shook us at 22. Could have used that. Like, I could have. I would have liked to know that no matter what you do and no matter how hard you try, you're going to make mistakes. And there are many people who don't like you.

Yeah.

And I could have used that little tidbit too. I've done some high school talks.

Yeah.

And I definitely. Those, those things are in there. Like that life isn't linear.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because it's like, I just, I wish I could have. It's hard and maybe process when you're that age. But like, I would have liked to just kind of hear it.

I was never on Instagram pre podcast. I had an account but I couldn't figure out how to log back in. It's a longer story. But now I'm like, now I've become like the queen of the reel where I think I might have a problem and need to see someone about it. But George Clooney said on one of these reels that I, you know, that he's like, you don't learn from the wins, you only learn from the failures. And I just thought that was so. That was so true. Like that. As you said, the mistakes, the mistakes that we all make is where the.

By the way, I have a fun fact that I came and spoke to Jens to, you know, college courses. Oh yeah, I did that two years ago. And you know, they have to write you letters afterwards. Your students all write you these letters and you know, I was reading like, you know, eighty, a hundred letters and someone quoted something in one of the talks, by the way. It was just like talking. It wasn't a planned out thing. And she said, I'll never forget that you said, there's good in the garbage, by the way. And that is the name of one of my talks now, Good in the Garbage. And I would never have remembered it had it not been for the letter that I got from Jen's student. That remind. I was like, oh, yeah, that's a great cause. I'm like, it is for my life.

Yes.

Everything that has made me better and change and grow and become the person that I actually really like today has been from the real muck, the terrible times, the times where I couldn't get out of bed.

Anyway, Lindsay, I so grateful to you for coming on today. It was so great to talk to you. I could, you know, we could take it out dancing and karaoke from here. I mean, I, you know, let's get.

The, let's have a traveling podcast. Let's like take the mics on the road.

Well, when you come to Nashville. Nashville, or if you come, you know, I don't know you're going to Austin, but. But Nashville, I have a ton of ideas for you, for your. For women. Work effing hard whenever you want to come. But anyway, thank you so much.

It's been a pleasure.

What a dream. I enjoyed spending time with you and I can't wait to see what's next.

Thank you. I can't wait to see it either.

[Leslie Heaney]

For real. That brings us to the end of this episode of the interview. A huge thank you to Lindsay Shookus for joining and as always, thank you all so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. We release a new episode every Wednesday. Until then, this is Leslie and thank you for joining the interview.