A (3:04)

Kate, I'm so happy to see you.

B (3:06)

Hey, Leslie. Kate and I have first pod experience here.

A (3:11)

Is this your first pod? I didn't know that.

B (3:14)

First pod. And I'm working on my pod voice. Yes. I've been asked many times or a few times in the past, and my default answer is no. And I've been trying to be better about if my default answers notice something, it's usually because it's making me slightly uncomfortable. And I'm trying to embrace being uncomfortable because that's a very good thing. Yes. So I said yes.

A (3:38)

You're growing when you're uncomfortable.

B (3:40)

That's correct.

A (3:40)

That's what I tell my children. Yes.

A (3:44)

Well, I'm, I'm. I mean, I'm. I can't tell you how honored I am to be your. Your virgin voyage here. I mean, this is. Let's go. We're really excited. So Kate and I were introduced by a mutual friend in Dallas when I was down for the podcast conference last August. And anyway, we had such a fun dinner and I'm just so happy I get to spend time with Kate. This morning, Kate's coming live from Dallas and I'm here in Nashville and it is the fifth year anniversary of the mahjong line. So our timing is kind of great to really dive into all things mahjong.

B (4:18)

Yes. Much has transpired in those five years. It's like time plays tricks on you. And it feels like we always say, like, so long ago, but yet, you know, just yesterday that Annie and I were such adorably clueless newbies starting, you know, this new venture. So, yeah, five big ones.

A (4:40)

I love that. I love that. And so I am a new mahjong player. When I say new, maybe. Well, about a year. Because when I moved to Nashville, I thought I should sort of maybe take on my friends have been playing for a long time. And then I'd say, oh, I want to learn. I'll just jump into your game. It's almost like asking someone to have an extramarital affair. And the looks that you get when you're sort of. I've never done that, by the way.

A (5:08)

I don't know what that actually means.

B (5:09)

I knew what you meant. I'm tracking.

A (5:12)

So, anyway, now I'm a pretty fluent player, and I understand what all of the fuss is about. But when did you and Annie, who's your co founder, when did you both start.

A (5:26)

Playing mahjong or first fall in love with mahjong?

B (5:29)

Okay, so Annie has been playing this game for much longer than I have. She learned from her mom and her extended family. She comes from a giant family here in Texas.

A (5:39)

And.

B (5:40)

And they taught her, I mean, when she was early 30s. And so when I hit the scene in 2017, wanting to learn the game, Annie was a pro, a profess. So you are correct. It is not a game that you can just sort of, like, hop into and watch and catch on quickly. Some can, but most cannot. And that's why this game is, like, oftentimes taught by someone that really knows how to teach it. Like, an actual teacher, or you just have, like, such a solid understanding of the game that you can explain it very succinctly and coherently. So in 2017, there was something percolating in Dallas. It's nothing like the mahjong moment that we're experiencing now, but in 2017, there was just people talking about the game more. And there was this woman named Marlene Stern, who is this amazingly feisty, fabulous Jewish woman that would oftentimes teach at the JCC here in Dallas. And I got her number and a couple of friends and I sat down with her, and she has such, like, an infectious, passionate personality. And, you know, there's really no other game that you can think of except for maybe poker, where, like, there is a true community of enthusiasts that are passionate and quirky. And most women. Most of them are women. And the way that Marlene would talk about it, like, she would teach us, you know, Yiddish swear words that were appropriate based on what kind of hand you have or, you know, don't have. And she just got me hooked very quickly. And here in Dallas, everyone loves to host, you know, parties at their home. And so I kind of mosey over to the Internet to buy my first set. And in my mind, I'm looking for tons of color. That's like. That's sort of, you know, what inspires me. And I surround myself with color, and I'm like, okay, I want to Find a tile set that's really unique and colorful. Thinking, you know, it's really fun to have like this party and you're sort of displaying these tiles sort of in a very personal way and creating this very unique experience. At the time, in 2017, the. And just so people understand, mahjong is played on tiles as opposed to playing cards. And there are suits just like there are on playing cards on the face of the tile. And so by and large, every set that you could buy at that time, you know, there was maybe a couple websites and then obviously Amazon. The front or face of the tile did not vary. So it was the suits like you traditionally see on playing cards. However, they're different. In mahjong, there's three suits rather than four, and they're totally different. But the sort of personalization element happened on the back of the card. And so my idea, and I'm kind of like, surely there's this out there somewhere, is just to have the front of the card have really unique original artwork. There is a company that was doing it that I discovered that is wonderful. And I always like to give them a shout out because they are the ultimate OGs, and they're out of, I think, Providence. Their name is Chris Lloyd, and they do beautiful work on the face of the towels, but it was way outside my price range. So my whole concept was like, there's a huge middle market of people like me that want originality, creativity, color, sort of design forward with these American Mah Jong tiles. And it's just as simple as the concept of if you can't find it, create it. And so I set about a process in super top secret mode because I was convinced this is so obvious that Shirley, there's a bunch of other people working on this. And so I was like, heads down for nine months to a year, just trying to research the market, learn about manufacturing, and just wrap my head around this possible venture. And so Annie and I were acquaintances in Dallas, live in the same neighborhood, have some kids that overlap, but weren't super close friends. But around that time that I started playing, she was in this foursome that I was with all the time. And. And Annie is incredibly smart, stylish, great opinions. You know, I have so much respect for her. So I, after I wrote my business plan, I said, annie, you gotta meet me for a meeting. And she's like, this sounds very formal and what's going on? I'm like, I need to pitch you something. So I pitched her the concept. And, you know, immediately, you know, we were just headfirst in worlds of product design, which we had absolutely zero experience in. And, yeah, just sort of felt like there was an opportunity here to create more unique experiences that are more personalized to a person and create these unique tiles.

A (10:36)

Well, I think the other thing, too, and for people who play, they're familiar with this, for people who don't play and just are listening to this because they want to know what all, you know, all the excitement is about around mahjong is that, as you said, sort of the back of the tile. You know, there maybe there were some companies that had different designs there, but as a player, you're not really looking often at the back of the tile. You're looking at the front of the tile on your. I want to say, your board.

B (11:03)

On your rack.

A (11:04)

Your rack. That's what it's called. I should know this, obviously, but it's been. I'm a little slow this morning, but that. You know that. And so as a player, it is. It just gives it sort of that extra experience. Right, where you're getting to look at a beautiful thing or different thing or. Because with the mahjong line, the artwork is kind of. You have to sort of adjust it to what type of suit that you have. As, let's say you're doing like, a four of hearts or something and regular playing cards, it would have a different kind of design. And you have to know that that was what it was correlated to. It kind of adds another layer of fun to it, just understanding that piece. Okay, so you two get together, you and Annie. You're a year. You're underground. You're researching. Annie is like, actually, this is a great idea. Let's do this. And then what was your first step from there? And what designs did you launch with?

B (11:59)

Okay, so to set this stage, we began the whole process of figuring out the brand, which was, you know, key to me, obviously, and then. And then the product that was pre Covid. So the first time that we saw the artwork on a tile from our branding agency, the actual designs, was the day after the world shut down. It was in March, so we'd already had, like, our first meeting in person, and we went on spring break. World shuts down. I'm in Montana, and we get our first pass at the designs. And, you know, they're wildly different of where we landed, but it was like this light bulb moment where you're like, okay, there's something here, and we're gonna make it better and better and more refined and more what we're Imagining, but it was like the first time it came, you know, into existence on, you know, on a PDF on my screen. So Covid for us was like this beautifully creative, exciting time where we were. We were actually very busy. And so, so much of what we were doing, the two things that we were doing is the product design and then the manufacturing and Annie. And like I said, we had no experience. Our tiles are made out of these very pantone specific plastics, which in the United States is almost impossible or is impossible to do. You can do, like, very standard plastic colors, but the pantone specifically, like Annie and I, speak in pantones. And it's like there's. There's a hundred different shades of green to us, and, you know, it's like the inks and the. And the plastic. So, you know, we got on the Internet and started just trying to find factories that could do it for us. Most of our tiles, if not all, are made in China. And obviously mahjong itself is a Chinese game that started, you know, a few hundred years ago. And when it started over there, they were the ones that started on a tile. Their tiles are thicker. And, you know, for those that don't understand, it's basically you're trying to find groupings or melds of tiles to complete your line to then win mahjong. And in China, you know, a few hundred years ago, it was played predominantly by men. It was a gambling game, and it was in all the big cities and sort of these men's social clubs. About 100 years ago, it sort of started leaping from parts of China to other places around the world. And in 1937, a gentleman who had been working in China for the Standard Oil company came back with the first set in New York City and started to try to spread it. Here in the States, women got together. In 1937, a group of women out of New York, a group of Jewish women, were the ones that finally standardized the rules to the game of American Mah Jongg as we know it today. A lot of men were trying to bring it over here, and they all were changing the rules. And it was getting a little bit confusing about how you learn based on.

A (15:06)

What table you're trying to get it organized, getting something organized, and launched 100%.

B (15:12)

Yes. They did what the men could not do, which was, you know, build consensus and, you know, lead and standardize these rules. So the biggest difference between Chinese Mahjong and American Mahjong, in my opinion, is that American mahjong, you use a card that tells you for that year What. What hands are allowed to mahjong. And it changes every year. In Chinese, mahjong is just like playing gin rummy. You're just get your dealt tiles and then you're trying to find runs and, like, numbers, essentially. So the women of the National Mahjong League created this card in 1937. And it's, you know, they're obviously still going, and they were, like, really big on philanthropy and like, the culture was pretty amazing.

A (15:56)

But tell me about that. Kate. I didn't even. So it's 1937. A man comes over from China, right. He's business there, he's got these titles. Somehow it ends up in the hands of a group of women who want to sort of standardize it. Right. Or organize it, which I said is, I love that. And then they start the league, the National Mah Jong League. Right. Which creates for people who don't play these. These cards. And that sort of dictates your hand for that year. And you can always play with cards of a different year. Right. If you want to.

B (16:28)

Correct.

A (16:28)

But if you're playing in tournaments and things, you'd play with those years cards. And who makes up. Do you know, surprise question. Like, do you know who makes up the league and how they're selected? And, you know, so the word league.

B (16:44)

Is a slight misnomer because there's no real property league, per se, that the National Mahjong League runs. It's really more this card every year. But, you know, like I said, like, the whole philanthropic element is really special and unique to me. And. And I love that they started that back in 1937 and made that such a part of the culture.

A (17:04)

Yeah. So what is the philanthropic element? Sorry, I missed that part.

B (17:08)

So back when they started, I believe, you know, some of them were more targeted to Jewish charities. Okay. And now, you know, I've noticed a lot of Alzheimer's charities are linked to mahjong because of this, you know, a wonderful brain exercise that you, you know, do every time you play the game. And it's really good for that sort of longevity component. So that is a charity that is oftentimes paired with mahjong players and mahjong women that are raising funds.

A (17:39)

We should mention, too. So on the cards, like, you know, when. When they. When the cards lay out the different hands you can have to win mahjong, there are different values placed on the different hands, like 25 cents or 35 cents or 50 cents. And I guess you could make it dollars if you wanted to or, you know, you could with the 25s and the 30s and the 50s. So you can play for money. I'm not. I'm a. I'm not in the money group yet. I'm in the.

B (18:02)

You know, I'm not in the money group either. But. But when you play for money, there are. There are components to the payouts that make you play more defensively, which I think is a more strategic and smarter way to play. Or you can just play to maximize your wins. You sit down at the table, you've got two hours. What person won the most out of those two hours, won the most games? Basically. That's oftentimes how I play. Or you can go more the points money route.

A (18:31)

And the more that a hand is worth, the more difficult that hand is.

B (18:36)

Right?

A (18:37)

The 50s or the. You know, sometimes I'll be like, I'm doing a 50. I didn't even know, you know, and it obviously depends on what hands you're dealt as you're pulling. So I love that you had. You're developing a business during COVID by the way, which is like eating too much and cleaning out closets and, you know, just, you know.

B (18:57)

Well, what's really fun is the day that Annie and I had our soft launch. We had it in my backyard with four game tables spread out as wide as you possibly can. Because we were coming out of COVID by this point, right? This was like September of 2020. Okay. And we invited family and friends. It was just sort of word of mouth to my house. And. And everyone went outside. Half the people are still, you know, en masse possibly. And that was our sip and see. And we basically were like, come see our new baby that we've been birthing this whole Covid era. So, yeah, it's just like the memory and the photos are so funny because we're all just in the backyard, spread out. There's not many of us, but it was that moment. I mean, just as simple as it sounds. But, you know, yes, as friends and family, you know, they're going to be supportive. But we were pretty blown away by how much it was resonating with people. And like I said, you know, it was having Mahjong, was having a moment before COVID but just like, I mean, you know, this games, chess, board games, Mahjong, during COVID took off because it was like this little loophole about like, how can I get with people in a very small group safely? And those. Those games became a vehicle for that. So Mahjong, you know, kind of exploded even further during COVID Yeah, I never thought about that.

A (20:25)

But that is. That is so true, because I feel like coming out of it, Mahjong was rising like a phoenix out of the cope, and I saw such an explosion among, you know, my female friends that were playing. So what were your first designs? Do you remember?

B (20:41)

Okay, so our first. We launched with three designs. Yes, I remember. It's my baby. I mean.

B (20:47)

So we did the one that is kind of the most traditional. I'm using air quotes here, but it's called the minimal line. And it's basically taking. It's reinterpreting a very traditional tile, but sort of stylized mid center. Okay. So that's the minimal line. Then we did the botanical line, which was taking. We haven't mentioned the suits yet, but they're dots, bams, and cracks. Yeah. And so taking those three suits and using, like, a more botanical inspired feel. So our dots were sort of these berries. Our bams were bamboo. Bam is short for bamboo. And we did do, like, sort of these stylized bamboo. And then cracks were actually the veins on this beautiful red maple leaf. So these little cracks. So as the numbers on the tiles go from one to nine, the tiles change and sort of grow. And then the third one was the cheeky line. And this was, like, very irreverent, very cheeky as. As it's named. And it was trying to infuse some humor and creativity into the suits. So, for example, like, you have flowers in mahjong. Well, we did flower F L O U r bags of flour with, like, these little darling baked goods right off to the side of the bag of flour. This one was the one that I feel like we kind of came under a firestorm about. This is the design that sort of started the backlash, which I'm sure we'll talk about at some point.

A (22:21)

I am briefly pausing this episode to let you know about a very exciting giveaway. In partnership with the mahjong line, we are gifting one of our listeners with a mah Jong tile set. The incredible Mah Jongg Lion Mah Jong tile set. So head over to my Instagram to learn more about how to enter and win. The handle is Duologue Pod, or you can search my name, Leslie Heaney. This is a giveaway you will not want to miss. So now back to our episode.

A (22:50)

First of all, I have the botanical line. I got it as a present. And I also have the ocean line.

B (22:55)

Ocean also present.

A (22:57)

And I mean, if I could tell. I don't want to tell my husband, but, I mean, if you ask Me, like the top 10 presents I've received in the past five years. My excitement over getting those things from friends, I love that. I mean, anyway, they're so beautiful. So yeah, so you did, so you launch, you get this great feedback, right, from your friends and family that play and are just so excited about this new design and where they can take it. And then, you know, in researching for this conversation, I was really surprised to learn about some of the backlash that like, really considerable backlash that you experienced after you launched the line. One headline I found was, you know, a Dallas based mahjong line is facing national backlash for cultural appropriation.

A (23:39)

I was really taken back by that because there's so many games. You know, for example, you know, chess has been around for 1500 years. It's originally from India. And there's many different chess sets that have different, you know, queens and kings and, you know, what are the other little ones? My kid bishops. All the different players, you know, on the chessboard, we've got a Harry Potter set, we've got a Lord of the Rings chess set. And same goes for backgammon, right. Which is, you know, originally from Mesopotamia. And so all these games are, you know, are rooted in different cultures. And I feel like with globalization, everyone should get to enjoy and interpret the game. But that was not what the experience that you all had after the line was launched. So what was that like?

B (24:25)

And yeah, okay, so to set the stage a little bit, going back to like when we're talking about. So this was November of 22, like I said, the world was starting to open back up. Sorry. When we launched, sorry, it was November of 2020. Then in January 4th of 2021. So this is two days before that whole thing happened at the Capitol. The world was really stressed. I mean, this is the COVID you know, environment. People were really struggling, you know, with mental health issues, you know, just finances. People are kind of bound to their house. There's a ton of screen time. People are kind of locked into their phones and computers. And now we understand a very unhealthy way. But it was like a very tense time. And just because of those sort of like, you know, environmental factors and how people are sort of like coping with the constraints of COVID So I mean, it's just an odd memory. I was actually across the street from my house at my kids soccer game and I got a text coming in from a friend that was like, have you seen what's happening on Twitter? And I, you know, mosey over to Twitter and it's Basically, like, just like you said. And I'm using their words, you know, these are not mine, but it's basically like these white women are, you know, stealing this Chinese game. And, you know, I. To say I was, you know, taken aback or just, you know, caught off guard, whatever you want to say. I mean, it was, you know, that was, you know, not the intent by any means of what we were doing. It was like this big emphasis on creativity and innovation and doing something very different. Yes. But to me, it was like, we're spreading, you know, this amazing game to more people and. And where our goal is to grow American Mahjong. And I randomly was standing next to a Donald Robertson. I don't know if you know him, but he's like, kind of the pop artist that's on, you know, Instagram. He's incredible. And his kids, you know, in our community. And I remember saying to him, oh, my gosh, you know. You know, at this point, I didn't realize how big it was going to get, but I'm like, what should I do? And he said, just don't delete anything. He's like, that's what kind of ticks people off, is you if you try to delete and censor. So just, like, let it ride. Right? And by this point, they're kind of coming onto our social media account, which, again, like, we are three months old. Yeah, we are. We have barely any followers. We are doing really well in our sort of niche. But, like, we're tiny. It's just at this point, it's me and Annie, period. So pretty quickly, it's, you know, it starts on Twitter, and then, you know, it just sort of explodes in a way that is, like, to be kind of in that. The middle of that explosion. It is crazy to watch. And, you know, there was a certain account, like, big accounts that picked it up. One of them is diet product. And I don't know if you're familiar with who they are, but it's two people running the account. And originally, back in the day, they sort of cut their teeth on being this small outfit that was really standing up for tiny independent labels that were being ripped off by giant fashion brands. And so they originally established this following by being this voice for these indie labels that were being really creative and were getting ripped off. Right. Well, by the time they kind of came on to us in this story, they had 3 million followers, and they were coming after tiny companies like me. And, you know, it was almost like I. I didn't understand if they didn't see the irony in it that it's like, no, we are the tiny company. Right. And we're doing something creative, different, innovative, possibly something that, you know, offends some people, obviously not our intent, but basically saying, stay in your lane, you know, and, and so what was kind of crazy about the whole thing is, is I'm an avid, avid reader of the news and I tell my friends, you've got to read, you got to read the long form articles. This is really important. You have to kind of just stick with it. It's important. And seeing the sausage making of clickbait media at that time, which again was really bad, it's gotten a lot better, I think. But just this notion of one outlet runs with a story.

A (28:50)

Yeah.

B (28:50)

And they, and then these other outlets, and I'm telling you, 40 to 50 outlets are like, okay, here's a story that's getting a lot of clicks through this outlet. We have to run the same photo, we have to run the same headline, and we have to do it fast. So there's no time to do independent reporting. And so we were getting flooded with media requests. And at this point I had called my friend out of New York who has a tiny like crisis PR firm. And I called them, I'm like, I think this qualifies as a crisis. This is like on day, day two. And he said, it's crazy. Like we, we help giant companies deal with some of these accounts that are coming after you, like diet product. Never have seen them go after a tiny company like yours and we will be happy to help. And so his big thing was just send us the request, we will get. You know, I had a bunch of real credible sources that were willing to go on background about the history of American mahjong, which was actually part of the problem is people didn't understand that there was a whole American mahjong component that had been here for almost 100 years. We weren't just ripping said was, was.

A (30:00)

Sort of championed by the Jewish community.

B (30:02)

Right, right.

A (30:03)

Interesting. Yeah.

B (30:05)

And so it was like they weren't, they didn't, you know, when you're, when you're in the clickbait world, they don't want to do any original reporting because that takes time and they don't have time. They're trying to get eyeballs as fast as they can. So, you know, that was sort of this bizarre part of it. And honestly we had to get law enforcement involved on two separate occasions due to pretty credible death threats. I mean, this is, it's bananas. How quickly it spirals completely out of control. And, you know, I remember we had, like, this incoming call from this lawyer friend, and he was like, hey, I don't know if you realize this, but we can kind of track some of these comments. And we've done this for other companies, but this has all the hallmarks of like a troll farm from other countries, you know, where they're trying to amplify division. And, you know, this, they. They love this, you know, unfortunately. So as bizarre and strange as it was with, like, these real humans that are kind of spewing lots of hate through social media, knowing that there's also, like this sort of paid actors that are also trying to fuel it, is such a strange, strange situation. One thing I'll say is when this all happened, I mean, Annie and I were, like I said, caught off guard, freaked out. It was. It was very upsetting. But we also genuinely wanted to have real conversations with people that were wanting to have conversations. You know, this, the snarky comments. No, I won't pay any attention to that. But, you know, we had really thoughtful people reach out to us through email that either really liked what we were doing or didn't like what we were doing. And they, you know, the Asian American community is not a monolith. And they all had different opinions. And we spent a month at least having zoom calls, meeting for coffee, like, truly trying to understand kind of where exactly the rub was. And the fact of the matter is, like, very, very reasonable people can disagree on this whole concept of cultural appropriation. And I agree with you that our country is so incredibly phenomenal because of the cultural melting pot that it is. And you mentioned games, but I would take it, even a giant, you know, bigger step back and say, it's our food, it's our fashion.

A (32:33)

Yeah.

B (32:34)

It's our music, it's our culture.

A (32:36)

Actually, that is what our. That is what the American culture is. And that's why it's so strong.

B (32:41)

Correct. So I, you know, we, we loved those conversations. And we, you know, as loud as the voices are on social media, you don't see all the support we, we and probably other companies in our situation get kind of in private, in more direct emails. And so that was eye opening to us that just, you know, we feel kind of looking back on it now, it was such a perfect storm of where the world was, where people's kind of heads were. And I, you know, I think it's changed a lot in the last five years where cooler heads have prevailed. And you can have really strong Opinions, you can feel passionately about something, but you will never persuade or convince someone to see your side of things when you're wishing them dead or saying insulting things. And so I do, I mean, I say one of my takeaways about the whole thing is like this. The vast majority of the people that were jumping on and kind of going overboard on a social media, they're very young. They're very young people. And it was.

A (33:47)

I think you see that a lot, though, today. You see some of the protests on college campuses of, you know, kids not being informed. There was this, you know, great. I think it was on CBS this Morning, Sunday Morning rather, with Hillary Clinton and Condoleezza Rice talking about the peace deal in the Middle East. And, you know, Condi Rice works at Stanford, and she was saying, you know, many of the kids who are protesting when they say from the river to the sea, they don't even actually know.

B (34:12)

What river they're talking about.

A (34:14)

So I think, you know, as you said, it's sort of that pylon on social media sometimes where, you know, people want to be a part of something or they just, you know, or they're being paid in some cases if they're trolling or they're. And there has to be. It's just unfortunate. You know, to me, it's. I really think that people should not be able to. I mean, if you were to write an article that was published in the paper, you'd be accountable for what you said. Being able to say anything to anyone, spread lies through a vehicle that distributes more broadly. Right. Than a actually published tangible paper is what's creating this phenomenon of people kind of being able to pile on and having no repercussions.

B (34:54)

Right? And if you look at the stories that ran within that first 48 hours to three days, their source, again I'm using air quotes, was the person on Twitter. I said, okay, well, we will provide you with sources that are PhDs, you know, and have a specialty or an understanding in mahjong. An art historian that can tell you the tiles from the get go a few hundred years ago have been changing, that the artwork is evolving and there's creative expression. This is not. I mean, as much as I'd like to say it's the. We're the first person to ever think of it. It's from the very beginning, these, this, the face of the tiles artwork has been explored through, like, creative interpretation. So we had all these, like super legit credible sources and not one of them was called by the media. So you know, I agree. Like I said, so many of the, you can look at the, you can look at the demographics at any point on social media, on these business accounts and kind of like splice and dice. And it was very young and it was, you know, probably split half and half male, female. And what I would say to these younger kids, like, I get it. I mean, I felt super. I still do. I mean, I, I feel very passionately about. About things and I just. What I wish that they would understand is like, you have so much power in using your voice in a very effective way and you. And there's no power in slinging insults, hate, and all that kind of stuff. So just if, if what you ultimately care about is whatever mission you're talking about, then, then. And have a sweeter influence. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You have to have a conversation. And so, yeah, it was, it was just big picture wise, it was scary. It was two or three weeks of. I mean, my cortisol was probably spiking at all times because just the stress of it was pretty remarkable. It was humbling. It was pretty crazy to kind of see that. That part of the world from the inside. But I, I still look back on it and I'm absolutely grateful it happened, which I never would have thought when I was in it. I remember one time talking to my husband one night, probably on day three or four, you know, and our website got hacked. I mean, hacked. I mean, there were so many things that were happening in that moment. But I said to Jack, I'm like, will my life ever be the same? Because that's how it feels in that moment. It is so scary. And, you know, I, I can just say 100% that, you know, you can kind of have these crazy things happen to you, whether it's personally or in your, in your business life. And it's truly like how you, what you take from it.

A (37:44)

Yeah.

B (37:44)

How you decide you're going to tell your story. And I'm grateful. I've learned a lot. Annie and I have learned a lot about ourselves, about business. And, you know, kind of where we are right now is just we unabashedly use creativity and innovation to do things differently. It's what inspires us. We know many people love it. And if people. Some people don't, that's okay. Like, everyone can have their own, you know, opinions that. That's what's beautiful about all this. So. Yeah.

A (38:15)

So from there, I mean, you all just kept. You ha. As you said, you sort of had those conversations, Right. You were having zooms you had coffees. And then eventually, like many things just sort of, it died down. And you both kept sort of following through with your vision. Right. And your mission. And from that. So would you say this sort of started in January at some point in the spring, you're just, you keep on keeping on, right?

B (38:41)

Yeah.

A (38:42)

And then from there, what was, you know, what was your next step or how many lines did you start? And I guess I should ask too, you know, is there any kind of formula that you put out a certain number of lines per year or were you just kept having the conversations, thought, we're just going to get back to doing.

B (39:00)

Yeah. And that's the irony of all of this, is when it dies, it dies and it's over and either they've moved on to something else or it's just maybe, you know, it was all kind of bunk to begin with or for a lot of people. So it died down onto the next thing.

A (39:18)

And then you're like, and I've told you that I had my own experience, I've had a couple of experiences like that, whether my husband running for office or being a board chair of a school that was, you know, involved with. And it's similar thing where just, you know, one outlet ran with a story and then, you know, others just sort of had a narrative that they wanted to pursue and didn't really take the time at all to get a balanced, you know, perspective or all of the facts, which was really disappointing. I was really shocked. And from bigger news outlets like New York Times, you know, the Boston Globe.

B (39:52)

That's exact. And by the way, all those reached out. All of them ran everything you did, all the top ones, all the biggest, down to the smallest, they all did the exact same thing and then they.

A (40:01)

Move on to the next thing and then I'm left with like, you know, half the hair. I used to have £30 on my brain. I'm like, was that it? You guys are all done? Oh, good, I'm glad.

B (40:12)

Yeah, no, it's like a little bit ptsd and I, I mean I, we're laughing but at the same time when you're in it, it is scary as can be. And I had like this Pavlovian response there for a few years when someone would ask me about it. Yeah, like, you know, sort of tear up for a second, but, you know, just, and I, and I say that only because I, you know, I'm 50 right now. And when this happened, I was a very self assured, you know, healthy minded, you know, wife, mother, woman, Tons of friends, tons of support system. And it rocked my world for a few weeks. And so what I always say is like, how dangerous this behavior is if you're targeting someone that is more vulnerable, less self assured, doesn't have a support system. It is it because everyone's like, well, I mean, isn't all press good press, even if it's bad? And I'm like, you know what? Yes, I understand that concept. We were already going kind of skyrocketing growth even in that first three months. So I think we would have been on that trajectory, but it didn't break me. But I can't say that that's the case for everyone, because it is. It's a crazy situation. But yes, it dies down. And like I said, Annie and I, we design all of our products, all of our tiles. That is what brings us the most joy. And so typically. So we started with five SKUs when we launched. We're now at 220 SKUs.

A (41:46)

Wow.

B (41:47)

And that doesn't mean those are all tile sets. We usually. We have a total of 10 designs currently, so we like to do about two a year is kind of like how we average it out and it takes us a while. Like, we are not professional product designers, we're not professional graphic designers. Like, we take our time and we plod through and we get it right and we don't kind of rush things to market. And you know, that has been one of the most, you know, fun, enjoyable parts of this job is this creative outlet and just cranking stuff out that we, we would want ourselves. So yeah, so now we're at 220 SKUs. We have, you know, gone into the rummy world because if you play with mah jong tiles, then, you know, the rummy tiles are very similar. And we were like, well, mah jong can't have all the fun. You know, Rummy also is very fun to play with groups and at parties and with family.

A (42:44)

So I think that's the other piece though, for people who don't play. And you know, my friends that don't play yet want to learn and want to play is and for lack of a better description, but I would say sort of like the theater around it. Meaning that thanks to you, by the way, I mean, you really did. We talked about kind of the rise of the game correlating with COVID But I gotta tell you, Kate, I think a lot of the rise of the game has to also do with the mahjong line and with you and Annie and all your work. Because.

A (43:15)

It'S almost like if you're setting the table for a dinner party or you're, you know, the plates and what you having, you're not just talking about your tiles. Right. You got your racks, you have mats that have different designs on them. And it kind of personalizes the experience of this is Kate's set. Or I'm still getting my whole repertoire together. I've got like, I sort of have a banged up mat, but I have my nice tile someone gave me, so I have to get my whole experience. But that is part of it. Right. And then you'll play at another friend's house and they'll have their set. And so it gives it that. It's almost like a way to host someone or welcome someone into your home. It's another part. It also kind of touches all of those entertaining desires too, in a way. That part of being creative as a hostess, of how you're putting or presenting how you present your mahjong.

B (44:10)

Correct. Okay, so we're in Texas, and I couldn't agree more. I think especially when it took off, there's a southern hospitality reality thing that stretches, you know, from Texas along the south, where people love to entertain in their homes.

A (44:24)

Yep.

B (44:24)

So when we started growing like crazy, those are the states we were just nailing, you know, that was where it just really took off, that sort of regional area. And it's sort of. You're hosting, you want this, you know, something very personalized. It's really fun not to play on the same set every time. I think sometimes people are like, wait, I can't make the jump. And I'm like, you underestimate how smart you are. You underestimate the flexibility of your. You can jump from one tile design, if you know how to play one tile design to another tile design and be on it in five minutes, you know, and it's very fun to kind of have that sort of the personality of the person that's hosting kind of come through in the tablescape and all the things. I also just think, you know, we. We are very aware of the harms of devices. And all of us, especially, like kind of this sort of age group that we are in, you know, we understand the importance to our health of, like, the longevity component of socialization. Like meaningful, meaningful human interaction on a very, very regular basis. That is the key to keeping us all super sharp. And mahjong itself, like the game is really good for your brain, but having that socialization aspect on the regular is so good for your health and longevity. Then what's interesting is you look at kind of the younger generation because we're sort of seeing, you know, our audience is just continuing to go younger and younger and younger our customer base. And I love it because you've got like these 25 year olds. I mean, there's college girls that are playing all the time.

A (46:01)

No, a friend of mine's daughter who's a freshman at high school here in Nashville, she started a mahjong club and apparently she had a little sign up with her friend. And they have more 15 year olds, they have more people, you know, wanting to do it than they have space.

B (46:16)

Love that. See? Yeah. So. And I think the younger generation, they are kind of. They have a different goal in mind when they meet together. And it's just really unique programming. They want to have unique experiences that are like they're learning new things or they're. And yes, some of it has to do with content creation for, you know, their social media or whatever. But they too are sort of seeking out these moments to meaningfully gather with friends and have these like core memory banks, you know. So, yeah, I mean, the game, there's a million reasons why it's taken off, you know, I think, yes, our products have had, you know, a part in that and just growing the game to more people. And, you know, that's like for sure what we're most proud of.

A (47:02)

So this past spring, I think it was this spring, you were on the Today show. You and Annie, they did a whole segment, a long segment. Cause a friend of mine in New York, her group was being filmed. And I remember she's like, I'm gonna be on this Friday. I'm an hour behind. This is one of my best friends, an hour behind in Nashville. So I'm like looking, you know, getting up, I guess I. Anyway, just trying to catch her on the Today show and have it be live and looking at. And anyway, they kept sort of moving the date there, but, you know, you had this great moment there where you were teaching Savannah. And I think, you know, Jenna had a, you know, or you maybe you were teaching, you were playing with the two of them. And that must have been a full circle moment for you too, because weren't they also covered? They did, you know.

A (47:50)

What happened with that, you know, that kind of cancel moment for you five years ago.

B (47:55)

Yeah, no, it was a total full circle moment. It was. It was so cool, first of all, to meet both Jenna and Savannah. They're. I don't know if I'm allowed to cuss on this, but they're just cool as shit. Wonderfully smart, wonderfully funny, quick witted. I mean, they were impressive women, but they're also so down to earth is why they're so good at their job. Like, we immediately felt, you know, comfortable. And mahjong, like I said, is not necessarily easy to learn. They both legit learned it in, I don't know, 20, 25 minutes teaching them. Okay, so we already know they were taught. We brought in Molly Hardy. Mahjong Molly. She's one of our ambassadors, and she's a really good mahjong instructor, and she taught them. And they were the quickest studies. They're hilariously competitive, which I'm always like, hey, guys, it's okay to be competitive. It's a good thing. Like, you know, and I love that they kind of embrace that. So, yes, it was an incredible full circle moment. The actual segment, which I loved about this, is that the segment really was highlighting the growth, yes, of American mahjong, but also Chinese mahjong is having a moment amongst kind of in these bigger cities, amongst the younger set, you know, at these really cool kind of mahjong parlors. So it was a segment that really showed both. And I felt, you know, honored to be a part of it because of that sort of like showing, you know, that they can coexist and they're kind of doing the same thing for the same reasons. Yeah, and no, that was incredible because, yeah, the. The Today show did do a quick clickbait thing back in the day, just like everyone else did. But that was just amazing how, you know, you. You keep at things and you trust the process. And yeah, it was incredible.

A (49:51)

You know, you just celebrated. You mentioned that you toasted Annie. What. What did you all do? Did you have a party in Dallas?

B (49:57)

Okay, so we had a full day of just fun activities here in Dallas. And what was really cool is that we have 196, almost 200ambassadors for the mahjong line. And these women, they're all women. We will accept men, but we just haven't had any apply. Are incredible Mah Jong instructors, first and foremost. And they have their own brands, they run their own businesses, and they primarily teach and they do events and they do tournaments, and they make a living through their incredible teaching skills, but they also exclusively represent the mahjong line products. So they play on them, they teach on them, and then they get a commission. The ambassadors are former lawyers, former teachers, former asset managers. Some of them are coming into the workforce for the first time after having kids they're all really bright, like dynamic women. And so out of that, 290 of them traveled to Dallas for our five year anniversary. And so we had, you know, a day full of incredible activities. But that night we gathered at a place called Siddels in Hallen Park Village. And it was just an opportunity for me and Annie to celebrate all the people. Like I said, it's all about the people that gather in the room. And so we just. Because a lot of them are partners, they're consultants and so we're all working kind of remotely and so is this amazing opportunity for us to kind of put faces to the name. Of course they're a total lively bunch as you would imagine. The party went on for a long time. But yeah, the ambassador program has been like such a cool. Yet another cool surprise in our evolution of. Just didn't have this on my bingo card and I am so impressed by them. And they're, they're just, they are the engine to the growth of this game. So those teachers are awesome.

A (51:57)

So you've got 10 designs, you got 220 SKUs. What's next? What's next for the Mahjong line? What are we thinking here?

B (52:06)

So we're always.

A (52:08)

That you can't, you know.

B (52:09)

Yeah, I was going to say we always love to operate in like super top secret mode because we love the element of surprise and we've learned that so do our, you know, followers and customers. So I can't be super specific. However, the one thing that I'm, I love about just game, if you, if you're a Mahjong player, you're probably a gamer in general. You probably just enjoy playing cards and so on and so forth. So we have Rami next year. We're going into some pretty incredible games, taking our unique twists that we applied to Mahjong, to some of the other games like backgammon. Look, if you've learned Mahjong, you can learn Texas Hold'.

A (52:51)

Em.

B (52:52)

And the skills you learn in Texas hold' Em, similar to Mahjong, are like the art of the pivot, the art of sort of recovering from losses, defensive playing, all these things that are like really important life skills, good for your business skills. So we see a lot of correlation between these games and sort of the benefits that you can derive from them. So we're just like, hey, it's Mahjong is our soul and Mahjong is the community that we built. But we know those players also yearn for other games and other opportunities to kind of connect.

A (53:31)

I love it, Kate. I can't wait. I mean, I've got. I'm gonna get my. Whenever that comes out. I'm ready to get my poker set. I'm ready to get some backgammon sets.

B (53:39)

And I. Yeah, let's get a table going.

A (53:41)

Yeah, for sure. But thank you so much. I'm so happy to see you. I'm so grateful for you taking the time and having me be your virgin voyage on.

B (53:52)

Thank you, Leslie. This was fabulous. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

A (54:00)

That brings us to the end of this episode of Duologue. A huge thank you to Kate Laguerre for joining and sharing her incredible story. Be sure to subscribe and follow us on Instagram to learn more about our amazing mahjong line giveaway. And don't forget, too, to check out our sponsor Cozy Earth's website for all of their amazing products. Perfect gifts for everyone this holiday season. Season. They're at cozyearth. Com. And remember that Duolog listeners get an extra 20% off with the promo code Dualog at checkout. Be sure to tune in next Wednesday for another new episode. And until then, this is Leslie. And thanks so much for listening to Duolog.