A (3:27)

So when you're about to go to the party and oftentimes you get invited to dinner, let's say it's a dinner, I will say, what can I bring? Is that a polite thing to ask? I just sort of assume it is.

B (3:38)

Great thing to ask. If it's more of an informal party, bring something, contribute in some way and if they say nothing, also respect that. But bring a gift as a way of saying thank you.

A (3:50)

I love to your comment that whatever. So consumable. Right. So anything you'd bring that could be eaten or drank should not be open. And during that particular party I have made the mistake. And again, this was after many glasses of wine and I was in my 20s, we went to, we were in London, my husband and I, and we went to a friend's friend for dinner and we brought wine and it was later in the night and they sort of were like, oh gosh, we're out of red wine. I'm like, oh no, I brought you a bottle. And I knew that I shouldn't have done it. But anyway, so it's good to reinforce that you should not request that the host open the present that you brought while you're actually at the party.

B (4:33)

Exactly. And on the topic of wine, I don't think that's a gift. We should just grab and assume that A, that is something that your host even consumes or will enjoy. And then B, I think it does kind of put some pressure on the host to open or feel like you're thinking that this should be consumed on site or in that moment. So I would think of something else. But if you do bring a bottle of wine, make sure that it's wrapped and there's nice enclosure card and it's presented as a gift and not just something that you've grabbed off a shelf without a thought.

A (5:04)

Yeah. I will say I'm very guilty of just sort of the last minute, like grab a bottle of wine and I have these tags that go over the top of the wine bottle, you know, sort of. Anyway, I have to get my act together, clearly, but. So let's say you arrive, though, and the hostess is not at the front door to greet you. So you're not going to hand her or him the present. Do you leave it on the front hall table? Do you. If there's a caterer or a butler or someone there who's answering the door, do you give it to them?

B (5:35)

A great question, because I think the last thing we want to do is just lurk around someone's home trying to find the host to hand them said gift. I think there's a beauty in discretion in just placing this in the front hallway, making sure there's some sort of enclosure cards. It's not a mystery gift. They know who to thank, perhaps later, but it does not need to be handed directly to the host.

A (5:57)

So you just made me think of something. So if you're the hostess and you get a gift, should you send a We're going to get to thank yous in a minute. Which was a huge question I had from so many different people on that. On sort of what's the appropriate level of thank you depending on what someone's done? But do you, as the hostess, need to send a text to the guest the next day saying, thank you so much for the honey, should you circle back on that?

B (6:22)

General rule of thumb, if you open a gift not in front of someone, you're going to want to write a handwritten note to share that it's been received. A text. If you are short on time and that's all you have to give, that's okay. I think a handwritten gift, a handwritten note is always more thoughtful and better received.

A (6:44)

So even for if you're thanking for.

B (6:48)

A gift, for a hostess gift that is not received in person, so maybe you didn't see the person that left it on your entry table and just acknowledging that that was received in some way.

A (7:00)

Handwritten note, then.

B (7:03)

Leslie. I'm a huge fan of handwritten notes, and I think it's a lost art. We don't write enough of them. I think it's a great practice of gratitude as an individual and also for the person that receives the note. But yes, we don't send enough of these.

A (7:17)

I know. I have a good friend who has a wonderful shout out to Marcy Panzer, who has a great stationery and various kind of gifts line called Dear Annabelle. But it's primarily stationary. And this is a big point that she makes. We've sort of lost the art of the handwritten note. I was going to ask about if you go to a friend's for dinner, even if it's a close friend or you. Is a text okay? Is an email okay? Is a phone call the next day okay, and you're saying handwritten note all the time.

B (7:49)

I'm always a fan of a handwritten note, but again, it goes back to the pace in which our life evolves. And if you're not going to acknowledge something at all, call them or text them. But I would just encourage everyone make time to sit down and write a thank you note. Let someone know how much that gesture meant to you and how it was received.

A (8:11)

Okay. All right. Okay. It's funny, I had one friend say, I know the answer to the question and I don't want to know the answer to the question. Which means we all need to. Not that we don't love writing handwritten notes, it's just sometimes. But this is also probably again, shout out to Dear Annabel or there's a lot of other great stationery places out there, too, but you really want to have that on hand. You want to make sure that you are not wrestling for stamps, which I just did recently, or looking around, you want to have it sort of like always in your desk or in a drawer, some sort of stationary that you can just pop that note out. And it doesn't have to be long, right?

B (8:49)

Does not have to be long.

A (8:50)

Maybe we can make people feel better there. It could be three sentences, right? We don't have to get too deep.

B (8:54)

It can be so simple and quick, but it means a lot.

A (8:59)

Another question I got was around setting a table for a dinner party. I think the very, very formal place setting maybe isn't always in order, depending on what the occasion is. But let's just go through, like a casual, basic place setting. You're having two other couples over for dinner, or it's a family dinner and it's not very formal. Can we talk about placement of fork, knife, spoon and napkin placement? Maybe we start there.

B (9:31)

Yes. And before we even talk about the roadmap of the table, I think just a few things to keep in mind in general is there's no need to overset the table. We will only want to place items on our table that we will use for the meal that's being served. So it should match what's being served. Centerpieces, we don't want to have them too high. You want to be able to see across the table and. And make eye contact with the person across from you. So just in terms of just overall look and feel, I think those are two important points to keep in mind. But in terms of a basic place setting, as I teach in my classes, the fork should go to the left of your plate. And the way that I help my kids remember this is there are four letters in the word fork, four letters in the word left. They match. Your fork is on the left of your plate. Knife and spoon. Again, there's five letters in the word knife, five letters in the word spoon. Those should go to the right of your plate. Matching five letters in the word right. Your napkin is actually supposed to go to the left of your fork. So if you're reading from left to right, your place setting would be napkin, fork, dinner plate, knife, spoon. Your drinking glass or wine glass would be above the knife, and that would just be a very basic one. Course place setting, if you are using all those utensils for the meal.

A (10:51)

So if you do not have a soup.

A (10:56)

Because your dessert spoon and fork would be above your plate, we can talk about. I always have to look it up, which direction it's going. If I have something, let's say I'm serving cake with ice cream, I'll have put both out, but I have to. I never remember which direction one's going on the other. But if you're not serving soup, you do not need to have a soup spoon to the right of your knife.

B (11:20)

Correct.

A (11:20)

Okay.

B (11:21)

Unless you're serving a soup, no need to have a soup spoon on your table. But it's tempting. It's a lot of fun to have everything on the table. But unless that's part of your meal, technically, it's not needed.

A (11:31)

What if you were serving pasta? Would you want to have that big spoon there? And is that the right location for it?

B (11:38)

You know, it's interesting. This is where the etiquette experts become divided. Leslie, there's a controversy. We've got a little spice here.

A (11:49)

In Italy.

B (11:49)

It's actually incorrect etiquette to use a spoon to twirl your spaghetti, that you're using your plate to twirl your spaghetti or your linguine or whatever the long noodle may be. But in the US we instruct our Students to have your spoon in the left hand to help twirl your noodles and have those more neatly on the fork. So I think it really just depends on where you want to land that evening is if you want to include a spoon or that, if you want.

A (12:14)

To go sort of continental or what the plan is there.

B (12:17)

Now, what mood are you setting that night?

A (12:19)

Yeah, so let's say you're serving spaghetti and you do put the. You're going to sort of do an American thing. You're going to put the spoon to the right of the knife. And then when you're finished using it, if you are using it, do you put the spoon on your plate or bowl? If it's a bowl, I guess so maybe a soup plate or a larger pasta bowl. Would you stack it when you're finished with the spoon above.

A (12:46)

The fork or below it?

B (12:49)

So if you imagine that your plate is like the face of a clock, an analog clock, we are going to put the handles of our utensils at 5 o'. Clock. That would be finished position. So if you were completed your course and the order that they should be placed on the face of your dinner plate, clock should match the order that they were set on the table. So it would be your fork, knife, spoon, in that order at five o'. Clock.

A (13:14)

See, I never knew this. Now, what about. I know the five o'. Clock. The five o'. Clock. I'm. I sort of get a little bit loose, though, during the meal where, if, you know, when you're. I would just. I sort of place my fork.

A (13:30)

I think, kind of in that 4 o' clock sort of part of the clock, just sort of, you know, loosely. And then the knife sometimes up to the top on the right. And I'm not sure if that's correct. Sometimes I put it on the left. It's sort of all over the place with the knife while you're eating. Will you give us some guidance on that?

B (13:49)

Sure. So if you're dining American style and you're transferring your fork after you cut to your right hand, you would place your fork and knife, we call it two o' clock position, on the face of the clock, towards the top of your plate and resting position. And then once you've concluded with that course, your utensils would move down to 5 o'. Clock.

A (14:09)

And so if you're in the 2 o', clock, your knife, excuse me, your fork is above your knife, your fork.

B (14:15)

Is below your knife, your fork's below your knife.

A (14:19)

So you're not doing the same thing. You're doing when you're finished. Fork, knife, spoon. The way it's set, it should be the same way.

B (14:27)

I wish I had a plate to hold up, but it would transfer from 2 o' clock and then you would just move those utensils.

A (14:33)

Move it down. Okay, so it's the same setup there exactly. And I got this question from another listener in between bites. Does the spoon go back in the bowl or on the plate? If there's some sort of plate beneath the soup bowl.

B (14:48)

I love this question. I think the simple guidance is you never place a utensil that's been in your mouth back on the table. So if you keep that in mind, if there is a saucer underneath your soup bowl, you're going to use that to rest your spoon. If there's not a saucer and it's just the soup bowl on the table, you would leave your soup spoon within the bowl.

A (15:08)

And do you put your soup spoon at 2:00'? Clock?

B (15:11)

See, this is tricky. I don't know how you're actually able to move your soup spoon within a bowl, but technically, yes, it would move between 2 and 5 o'. Clock. That's really hard to see.

A (15:25)

Yes, yes. Okay. I wish we should have brought some demos. I do think when I am going to break this down in my new substack, Elizabeth Ann, and when I do, I was going to put some visuals in for some of these things so people can see exactly what we're talking about.

B (15:42)

It helps to have a visual. And I wish I had a plate here to hold up and share as my clock.

A (15:48)

So I've been to a lot of dinner parties where it's. Let's say there's either there's a charger or a plate at the table, then soup will be served, and then sometimes the hostess will say the main course is a buffet and you get up and you would take. Either take that char. Sometimes they will say, take the charger or take your plate underneath the soup. Is it more polite to do that or should you have plates already out on the buffet next to the.

B (16:18)

I think if someone is hosting and they've invited us into their home to enjoy a meal, that is the most tremendous act of kindness and generosity and hospitality, depending on what they have in their home and they're able to serve. I think that's beautiful. If you can take your plate to the buffet table and then you're serving, perhaps family style in that way. I think the etiquette rules on this get a little fuzzy.

A (16:42)

So you just want to Sort of follow the lead of your host, then I guess is what we're.

B (16:46)

That is a guidepost in almost everything. If you. Having the awareness of those that are around you and following the lead of the person kind of shepherding or hosting the meal.

A (16:57)

So if you are. Let's say you're at a cocktail party that's leading into a dinner and you have a drink in your hand and the hostess says it's time to go in the dining room, dinner served. I will put my drink down before I go into the dining room. I think that's. I think technically that's what you're supposed to do sometimes. However, if it's been a long cocktail hour and I don't know when I'm going to get another drink, depending on who it is, I might sneak my drink in and put it down next to me at the dining room at the table. Any instruction there?

B (17:27)

I think so. You're spot on with the etiquette. The rules of etiquette tell us that cocktails should stay in the cocktail hour room or living room or whatever space those might be served. They shouldn't proceed with us into the dining room. But I would follow the lead of the host. If they say, please bring your cocktails to the table. If they are bringing their cocktails to the table, that would tell you a different story.

A (17:50)

I see. Okay. And then sometimes I'll say, if I don't want to have too many glasses, and I don't, you know, I'll say, bring your drinks with, you know, bring what? And there's water at the table. If I don't want to have to have, you know, 70,000 wine glasses to wash at the end of the meal. I know that that's not. You still want to have. I know I'm not doing that. Correct. You want to have a new or sort of fresh wine glass at the table and a water glass.

B (18:14)

Exactly. Yes.

A (18:17)

Okay. So seating arrangements. So you walk in now we've left my cocktail in the living room. Unfortunately, I'm going into the dining room and you're the hostess. Always want to seat the table.

B (18:30)

Agree. I think place cards are beautiful. It's telling someone. We've thought about them before they arrived into our home. And. And not only we've thought about them, we've thought about where at the table. It's going to create the most interesting and best flow of conversation. So I think it's such an important, thoughtful touch. They should be at the table. And in terms of seating, I don't like to sit Couples together. I love to space couples out. I still seat hosts. So my husband and I would be at the head of the table. We kind of still follow the rules with guests of honor. So if it's new friends that we've invited into our circle, they're sitting close to me or my spouse. And then we're just alternating couples based on how we think conversation would be most interesting.

A (19:14)

But I've had this where if it's a table of eight, you cannot have the host and hostess. This could be like an SAT question. And clearly this explains why I did not knock that out of the park. But let's just say that the hostess is one end, the hostess is the other, and there's eight. I don't think you can do a boy, girl seating arrangement with that configuration. So in that case, then I would put the sort of the male guest of honor at that head with me to the right. Is that correct?

B (19:48)

So it's technically the opposite. The person to the host's right is of higher rank or most honor. And then to your left would be second highest honor.

A (19:59)

Okay.

A (20:02)

Will you say that again, Elizabeth? I'm taking notes on that.

B (20:05)

So from the perspective of the host, the person sitting to the right of the host would be of highest honor, and then the person to the left of the host would be second highest honor.

A (20:17)

What do you do in your home when you've got eight?

B (20:21)

It's not always alternating ladies and gentlemen. Sometimes there will be gentlemen next to each other or ladies next to each other. I just think I do like to split up couples and have them not sitting next to one another for sure.

A (20:34)

But would you rather have the heaney method of me at the.

A (20:39)

Head of the table so that it remains boy, girl, or would you rather have two men together, two women together and have the make sure that the host and hostess are at the head of the table?

B (20:52)

I would keep the host at the head of the table. And it depends. I mean, if you have a circular table, okay, our table's a rectangle. My husband and I.

B (21:02)

Give a toast. And that's just. I'm able to see everyone's face really well, if I'm at the end of the table, help facilitate conversation. So I would rather have the host at the end of the table. And then you could have guests next to you that may not follow the alternating method.

A (21:16)

Okay. Okay. So you would rather have the husband and wife or partner and spouse or girl, whoever, sort of the. If there is a couple. If there isn't, if there's Just one host right then. But you'd rather have both. If there's two hosts, two husbands, two wives, husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever the configuration is, you'd rather have them at the heads of the table and then the seating figure out around. Okay, that is a new thing. I erred on the side of maintaining the boy, girl, boy, girl over having me at the head and my husband at the head. Okay, so we have place cards.

A (21:53)

We just talked about our seating arrangement. And let's say you have a purse or a phone or a jacket or whatever. And this would also. This is also a thing in restaurants, people will put their phone on the table. I know we're not supposed to. I'm just having. Reaffirming the question. This is it. Or your purse. If it's a small clutch, sometimes people will put it on the table. What are the do's and don'ts around that?

B (22:18)

So the etiquette rules. Unless you plan to consume it, you're purse should not be on the table. So we want to consume it.

A (22:25)

Okay.

B (22:26)

Behind you in your seat. We don't want to place a handbag on the floor. So for ladies behind you in your seat, it's a great place. If it's a smaller clutch and depending on how the seat is configured, maybe it goes underneath your napkin. A briefcase would go actually at the toe of your left foot under the table so that no one's around that as they move around the table.

A (22:48)

Sometimes though, you can't help but if you have a larger purse.

A (22:52)

Right. And it's not an over the shoulder. If it's an over the shoulder, do you put it on the back of.

B (22:56)

The chair.

B (22:58)

You can find you. Is technically where those are supposed to be placed. Too large to fit behind you sometimes. Our only alternative is sometimes to place it on the floor, which is technically breaking an etiquette rule.

A (23:12)

Gosh. The stakes, Elizabeth. And what I would do sometimes is just. If it's a big. I just put it under my seat. So not on the floor, but kind of so it's not being kicked around.

B (23:25)

I think the biggest thing to remember though is there's no phones on the table. On the table or around the table or even on when we're at the table. I feel like that should be a completely phone free zone. I love parties where phones are left in a basket by the front door. And we've all just committed to being away from our devices and present with the people that we care about. I think that makes for better connection. A more enjoyable dinner party to Completely remove those distractions.

A (23:53)

Okay, I forgot to ask something on the soup front. I'm just remembering this, and I wanted to just go through all the dining things while we're sort of on that topic. In the dining room, soup, you scoop away from you. This was a question of my husband. He's like, what if there's just a little bit left and you're trying to get. And I. I would assume we're still going away, right? We're still.

B (24:19)

It's the only food in the Western world. We eat backwards. So you are scooping your soup out to sea. When I teach my younger students in etiquette classes, we teach this with a bowl of melted ice cream because it's similar to the density of soup. And we scoop away. And then you would actually scrape gently on the side of the soup bowl, the bottom of your spoon, and then sip from the side of your spoon is technically the correct way to enjoy soup.

A (24:44)

While we're on kid etiquette, I often, I would explain to my sons, you bring your food to your mouth, not your mouth to your food. Because sometimes I'll look over and it's like we're in a trough. I mean, our heads are very far down. Is that something that you see when you're.

B (25:00)

I love that saying. And I agree that your napkin should also come to your face and your face shouldn't come down to your lap.

A (25:07)

To wipe your mouth.

B (25:08)

So we want to maintain good posture at the table. And I think that's a great habit to start early with kids.

A (25:13)

Okay, napkins, since you brought it up, if you're headed to the restroom now, by the way, if you do need to use the bathroom during the dinner, you don't announce that you are over.

B (25:24)

The age of five. We don't need to tell everyone where we're going.

A (25:27)

Okay, so we just stand up and people will just assume. But if you need to ask, you don't know where it is.

A (25:35)

You would ask the hoster. Okay, so you just get up. You don't need to make an out if you know where it is. You don't need to say what you're doing or anything like that. You're just going to get up and go, okay. And what about serving wine during meals? The host will sort of get up if you don't have a server and kind of make sure that everybody is refreshed. Sometimes I'll put wine bottles on the table, you know, so that people can. And if it's on the table, is it assumed that it sort of Help yourself.

B (26:08)

Or you can yourself never flip your wine glass over. I think sometimes we see everyone turn their wine glass over if they're saying that they're done or they don't care for wine. That can just be communicated in other ways. Or you can place your hand over your glass if a server's coming by, but no need to turn your wine glass upside down. And if it's on the table, it's cue that you're able to serve yourself.

A (26:32)

Okay. And then your napkin. You're headed to the bathroom. Cause you just got up. You didn't ask anybody where to go, or you didn't announce that you were going. And your napkin goes on your seat. Correct.

B (26:45)

On your seat. And this is where we have a little etiquette controversy. Leslie. There are etiquette experts that tell us that the napkin should always go back on the table. I teach my students that we leave our napkins in our chair if we have not finished with our meal as a signal that we will be returning. And I just don't think a soiled napkin looks great on the table if others are still eating. So if you've lost left the table momentarily, you intend to come back. Your napkin should be left in your chair.

A (27:11)

What I had always done. And this is again, I'm speaking to the experts, so I want you to tell me all the things I've been doing wrong. But I've put my napkin on my seat during the meal. And then at the end of the meal, I will sort of place it neatly to the left of my plate.

B (27:26)

And that is correct etiquette. At the end of the meal, you pinch your napkin in the middle and place it to the left of your plate where the fork was previously placed. And that would be at the end of your meal.

A (27:37)

What do you do when you're at an interminable dinner party and the host and hostess are not getting up and you need to. The meal's been over. Is there. You know, is that the time when dessert has been served and everyone's eaten, even if people are sort of sitting around chatting, that if you really do have to go home, you've got to relieve the babysitter or you're just exhausted? What do you do?

B (28:02)

I think we all need graceful ways to close a conversation and also end an event that we feel like is lingering too long, and the reverse is true if we have guests that are lingering, also have a really graceful way to let them know that the time has come to an end. But I think it's perfectly polite at the end of a meal, if you feel like it's lingering too long, thank the host for the time and make your exit.

A (28:25)

So you thank them. So I could say sometimes, and this is. I hope I'm not outed here. But, you know, I'll say to Andrea, like, we, you know, we have to get home. Maybe we just. We have to let the dog out or something. We have to have some exit, which is not true. But it's just sometimes, you know what? We've been out for a long time. We really need to let the dog out. This was wonderful.

B (28:46)

Is that a. I don't even know if we need an explanation. I think just. Leslie, thank you so much for having me over tonight. The meal was lovely. Loved our conversation. Cannot wait to get back together again soon and make your way to the door.

A (29:01)

And you are fully within your rights to do that once dessert has been served and eaten?

B (29:06)

Absolutely.

A (29:07)

Okay. I was never sure. Do you sort of have to wait for the hostess to say, let's go back in the living room? And that's sort of how I wind it down. I'll say, let's go back in the living room. And then I've heard a trick that if you really want to shut it down, offer people coffee and no more alcohol. If you don't want to shut it down, then you can continue to serve alcohol. So I don't know, you can also.

B (29:30)

Turn off the music and turn up the lights, and that can lead everyone to the door.

A (29:35)

I mean, this is Elizabeth Ann. That's a real. Okay, so elbows. Elbows always off the table.

B (29:43)

So we teach our students there's two places your hands can be if you're not actively eating or animating a conversation without a utensil in your hand, you can have your hands in your lap or your wrist on your. On the edge of the table. The exception would be after dinner is served, the table has been cleared. If you're in conversation with drinks and friends, elbows are okay on the table at that point.

A (30:05)

Okay. So once you've got any consumables are on the table, your elbows are off the table.

B (30:11)

Correct.

A (30:12)

Bread and butter. So butter to the bread plate first, and then you break off a small piece of bread and butter. Your bread. Exactly.

B (30:21)

I love to call this the bread ceremony. It is a process, and it should be taken slow. A dinner roll should never be eaten like a sandwich. You should never slice it down the midd and stuff it full of butter and eat it like some sort of sandwich. But we break small pieces of bread Butter the individual pieces of bread and then enjoy.

A (30:40)

What about. And this will happen. Like if you're sort of at a rustic, more rustic. Like maybe you're at a more casual dinner where there isn't a bread plate and it's sort of, maybe it's a baguette and it's a lunch.

A (30:55)

Or you're at an Italian restaurant sometimes or a French restaurant, you just get a baguette with. No, but do you break off the piece of bread in the basket that you're gonna be and just butter that and then eat it immediately or do you take a piece out and leave it sort of on the table?

B (31:11)

What's the in that scenario? I would break the bread within the basket. So you're just removing the piece you're going to consume and then place it on the rim of your plate. I would never put food back on the table. But keeping our utensils that we've used and then food that we intend to eat on our plate and then enjoy your bread just as you would if it were on a bread and butter plate, breaking small pieces and enjoying it slowly.

A (31:36)

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A (33:05)

All right, now, this might be very obvious to you and me, but I think it's an important. I've seen this done by people who have very good manners, and I'm. I'm quite shocked by it. But maybe I don't have the right facts here. Lipstick application not to be done at the table is my feeling. But I see women do this.

B (33:27)

I think this is a great reminder because it can be very tempting to even check your teeth at the table. I've seen people pull out a phone and use it as a mirror to make sure there's nothing in their teeth. But all grooming should happen away from the table. If there's something in your teeth, if you need to blow your nose, if you need to reapply your lipstick, all of these things should be done away from the table. And again, it's the thought of thinking about the person across the table from you and making them feel comfortable and welcome in your presence and at your table. And that's why we want grooming to happen in the bathroom.

A (34:03)

Grooming in the bathroom. Okay. I like this general rule. What about food on the face? Which I'm not gonna say that I'm not guilty of. Occasionally my husband's like, you have ketchup all over your face. And. And at the ripe age of 51, I don't always feel this Elizabeth hand. Sometimes I ketchup on the face, and I don't know it. So if you're at dinner, you're at a very nice dinner. Let's say someone has something. I'll sometimes, depending on who the person is, if they're a friend of mine or someone I know well, I'll say you have food on your face. But if it's not, or you're at a business lunch or something, tell me, what do we do there?

B (34:40)

Absolutely. Tell someone if they have spinach between their teeth or blueberry smoothie curling up the side of their face like a mustache. Like, we need to be kind and love the people with us enough to let them know if you've spoken to anyone. You need to let them know that there's something on their face and give them the time to remove that so they're not walking around the rest of the meal that way.

A (35:03)

Okay, so we would just say, bob, you have a little something. You might want to go to the bathroom.

B (35:09)

You have something, let Bob know directly. No need to announce to the Rest of the table.

A (35:15)

Okay. And even if Bob's across the table, we're just gonna. If a T's across the table, we're not gonna say anything.

B (35:20)

Then maybe make your way to Bob and let Bob know, because there may not be anyone else wanting to share with him close enough. So I would make your way and let Bob know discreetly.

A (35:31)

Okay, let's go back. I guess I'm still at the table and food has been served. If it's a buffet, sometimes people will just start eating right away when they sit down. Even if it's a seated dinner, like there are place cards, You've been seated, but the hostess says, grab a plate, serve yourselves, and you sit. I always sort of wait till the hostess has sat down and started eating. Before I start eating.

B (35:58)

That's correct. There's actually two points of dining in someone's home where the etiquette. You're just looking to the host or hostess. One, you should actually wait to place your napkin in your lap after. After the host or hostess so they don't feel rushed with the meal. And the second would be you wait until everyone has been served, even if you're serving your plates from a buffet, and then you have your plates at the table. Or until the host or hostess says, please begin. So we're looking for a cue from the person that has invited us into their home or to this gathering to begin our meal as a sign of respect.

A (36:31)

Okay, so it's whether it's buffet or it's a. It's plated and it's served. You want to wait till everyone is served. If everyone is served, then you want to wait until the host or hostess or one or the other. I always sort of look to the female, which maybe isn't. If it's a male. Female couple. I look to the female. But if it's a male. Male couple, maybe you look to one of them. Or is it either host? If they start, then you're in business.

B (37:02)

Correct.

A (37:02)

Okay. Okay. So sort of standing. When people come to the table helping a woman or your dinner partner tuck in their chair. These are things men. You come up to the table do. Women's women sit immediately. Men stand until all the women are seated.

B (37:21)

That's correct. Etiquette.

A (37:23)

Yes. Okay. And then the men, if they have women on either side, help the. Would help the woman with her chair.

B (37:31)

Yes.

A (37:33)

What about the woman? Right. Let's say it's me in the hypothetical, I get up to go use the bathroom. Of course, I don't tell anybody where I'M going because we covered that. I just get up. I'm coming back. Do my male dinner partner stand up and help me back with my chair?

B (37:47)

They're supposed to stand as you leave, and they're supposed to stand as you come back and then help you into your chair.

A (37:53)

Okay.

B (37:54)

The secret missions mission for the gentleman at the table is to have this awareness of places where they can show courtesy to their dinner partners.

A (38:04)

Okay. And what if it's your dinner you have? If it's men.

A (38:10)

Like, and that's your dinner partner, and you're a man, you do not have to get up when they come back or help with the chair.

B (38:16)

I think this is where the rules of etiquette need to bend and be modern to help those that are. That are. It's helping the couple, perhaps, that you're with, depending on what that may look like.

A (38:27)

Okay. Okay. So now we're in a restaurant, so slightly different format. And this happens a lot in New York City, and it happens in Nashville, too. You're at a restaurant, and you know somebody in the restaurant, and they come up to say hello to you. The man is supposed to stand. Is the woman also supposed to stand if you're meeting someone? Give me all the. All of that.

B (38:52)

This is where I began to deviate from traditional rules of etiquette. Traditional rules of etiquette tell us that only the men would stand to shake hands and greet one another. I think it's also a beautiful gesture for the women to stand if there is someone coming to their table to say hello and also shake hands and greet them as well. These conversations are usually very brief. Everyone's going back to their table to enjoy their meal. But I think it's a great gesture of respect and courtesy to stand and greet that person.

A (39:19)

Say, I walk up to a table, and I say hello to a couple that I know, and the husband stands up. I will say, oh, please sit down. After we shake hands or hug or whatever. That's okay to do. Right. You want to kind of let them off the hook because they're standing there. Okay. And that is the only thing, in thinking about it that can be if you're at a restaurant, let's say, and it's, you know, you have two couples, and let's say they're male, female couples. If everybody stands up and the person's standing, I guess you sort of feel it out. But the woman is not expected to stand.

B (39:55)

Correct.

A (39:55)

Traditionally. Okay. So if it's more logistically comfortable because it's tight space or whatever, in the restaurant for the female to sit and just the men to stand. But the men always stand, correct?

B (40:09)

Okay. Yes.

A (40:12)

All right. So now we're at a dinner, whether we're at home or at a restaurant, and it's a special occasion, so toasts are in order. I should also ask, should there always be a toast, even if it isn't a special occasion, and who should make the first toast?

B (40:29)

So I think toasts are beautiful gestures. I think they are also falling out of vogue. I don't feel like we do these as much anymore, although we should. When we're together with friends, especially over a meal, the host traditionally makes the first toast at the beginning of the meal. You would stand to raise a glass. It doesn't have to be an alcoholic beverage, and it can be short and sweet. But traditionally, the host would make the first toast. If the host does not make a toast, it's okay for later in the meal for a guest to stand and make a toast.

A (41:03)

Okay. And is there any particular course that that's more appropriate, the main course, Dessert, or let's say it's the host's birthday and they've invited you to their home and they haven't made a toast yet. I will really ride it out. I mean, usually I look at my husband. If someone's not said something, write it out until as long as we can to see if the host or the host spouse gets up and gives a toast. But if they're not because they're shy, then you can.

B (41:32)

Later in the meal, I would wait. If you were a guest and the host hasn't made a toast, and I love the occasion of it's perhaps their birthday, waiting until dessert or at the end of the meal to make a toast. So that you do leave space for their spouse or if they're kind of building up some courage to stand up and speak first.

A (41:52)

Okay, now, what about dinner conversation? I have this great story where I have a good friend who was at. We were at the same dinner. I was sitting next to the guest of honor. There was another woman on the other side. So it's me. It's the birthday boy. It's this other older woman that was friends with the birthday boy and then another friend of mine, male friend of mine. And he, I guess because.

A (42:21)

The birthday boy was talking to me the whole night, and I was trying to, you know, sort of shift between two different dinner partners, but he also was the guest of honor and was not. I was trying to include the woman on the other side. He would sort of. I Think it was like his landlady. There was some reason why she was there. Anyway, my friend on the other side of her was because he assumed she was talking to the guest of honor, really did not even ask her a question the entire meal. And at the end of the meal, my friend turned to this older woman and said, oh, it was really nice having dinner with you. And she said, this was the worst dinner party I've ever been to. It was actually a great. I mean, it was, it's. This is an urban. This is an amazing story. But my friend was so floored. And yet later he said, I didn't know what to do because our friend that was the guest of honor wasn't. I thought that he was speaking with her. And then I looked over, he was talking to her once, but he went, so is there a sort of do you first course, main course, dessert? Do you really have to. Are you playing tennis? And you really need to be making sure you're giving each dinner partner equal time.

B (43:30)

I think this is a lovely question. I applaud the candor of the woman who shared her experience at the table. I mean, what authenticity. Fabulous. As a guest at a dinner party, it is our responsibility to include both the person on your right and your left. We're looking for balanced conversations, just as you mentioned, like a game of tennis or pickleball or ping pong. Whatever your game of choice may be, it's a give and take in conversation. I think it's lovely to remember those on either side of you and also across the table from you. If the table is configured in a way where you're able to make eye contact and converse with the person across from you, find ways to include all into one conversation. It doesn't have to just be a two way street. Perhaps you scoot your chair back a bit and then there's the three of you that are able to enjoy a conversation together. I think that's a lovely question and something we should all keep in mind because sometimes we get into conversations with person just on our right and it can be so engaging and so interesting, it's easy to forget that there's someone else also on your left.

A (44:32)

Yes. And if that person, let's say you're conversing with someone on the right and the person on the left is engaged, then I sometimes will look over and say, okay, he's covered. And then if I see someone's loose, I'll try to bring them into the conversation. But it's not always easy to do to make sure that you're sort of allocating time equally. Sometimes you get a real dud and it's a tough, it's a heavy lift. I also, as a public service announcement, I mean, I have been at dinners where I finish the dinner and realize I asked this person a thousand questions and they did not ask me one question.

B (45:11)

Conversation is an art. I think we're always learning. I'm always personally reading about this. There's a new book from a Harvard professor, if you've heard of this. Alison Woodbruck's talk, It's the Science of Conversation, the Art of Being Ourselves. I have it next to me right now. But I've been reading this recently as I'm teaching our middle school students their etiquette classes and in conversation. And I think coming prepared with questions, exciting questions to a dinner party. She provides this advice around long term listening. So just making a mental note of who you're going to see later and what are questions that we can ask that relate to things that we've talked about earlier or stories in their life. Keeping small talk small so that if we are sitting with someone where that conversation just falls flat, like how can we lift that? But it is work and it is an art that we can develop over time.

A (45:59)

I'm not suggesting that you employ this tactic with your students, but we had friends, we were on vacation with us, we were all staying at this home and we were having a cocktail party and our good friend said to our young boys, they have two boys, we have three children. But our daughter wasn't there. And I think the boys were, I don't know, maybe 12 and 10 at the time. Our sons are all the same age. And she said to the boys, I will pay you a dollar for every question that you ask an adult at this cocktail party. And I didn't know she had done this. And when we came, the kids were like, I mean it was, they were so excited. And our then 10 year old, there was a man who, you know, kind of walks with a cane and he. Anyway, we're this man sat in a chair and our 10 year old pulled up an ottoman right in front of his chair and was just peppering this guy with questions. It was one of the greatest. But I'm not saying you should suggest this, Elizabeth, and to.

A (46:55)

Your middle school students. But it was really, they were very, they were captivated. I mean, I think brilliant. My one sum was paid like a dollar and the other one made, you know, God only knows what, I can't remember, but some obscene amount of Money because he was rapid fire questioning. So, okay, so just remember, public service announcement. All of us, we need to keep asking questions. We touched upon this earlier about thanking the hostess, but I just want to land the plane. Totally. Because this was a big question. I got multiple times from listeners that, you know, so for a dinner party, for a birthday present, for a special event, condolence, anything and everything. Handwritten note, 100% okay.

B (47:37)

There's nothing more personal than your handwriting and your voice through your words. And it's something that they can hang onto and keep. It's going to last much longer than a text. I think it has this beautiful way of being received at just the right time. I wouldn't miss that moment. Make time to do it. Make it easy on yourself. It doesn't have to be lengthy. Set up a good system at home to make these notes quick, but don't miss that moment.

A (48:02)

What about for just another shout out to a friend of mine who is an amazing. She has an app called High Note that is, you should look at it, Elizabeth Ann, if you're not familiar with it, but it's basically a way to customize your text. You know, it's sort of a modern communication app like almost like a Hallmark and paperless post all melded into one. And so that you can create a card like a proper. You can create your own stationary with your monogram. I know it's not the same as a handwritten note, but I thought I'd shout that out that you really just, you want to make sure that you're showing that you made effort and that you cared. That might be a backup alternative if someone said really under the gun, but really in your view, it's handwritten note.

B (48:46)

And it's also a practice of gratitude for ourselves as well to pause and reflect on the people and experiences that have been beautiful and are just such lovely acts of kindness. Like, let's slow down and reflect and remember those things.

A (49:00)

What about children? Do they always have to write thank you notes for birthday presents, Christmas presents, and what age should we be expecting them to be doing that?

B (49:13)

In my house, Leslie, we have a one gift, one note policy. If they hope to open another gift, they will finish the thank you note for the gift that they've just opened. And we begin that at 5 years old. In my house, we have these fill in the blank thank you note cards. I just released a line of these on my website so that students can just select the gift. They fill in their name. They're very simple for ages 5 and up. To begin that habit of writing thank you notes.

A (49:41)

I've seen those. I saw when my children were younger, when they were kind of in preschool last year. Preschool. So around five parents were using those. And I wish I knew where to buy them because actually I should probably use them now because I think they need the help.

B (49:57)

Sorry, mannerly.com.

A (49:59)

Oh, you sell them?

B (50:00)

I do. I have a great collection I just released that are much more elevated and elegant than what I was able to find. So I solved what I couldn't find for my own children.

A (50:09)

Oh, Elizabeth Ann. This is so exciting. Listeners. We're gonna have to give a link to all of that stuff too in my substack so people can. I might just buy them. Honestly, our boys are now 16 and 13 and I saw my 16 year old write a thank you note. It was like he wrote it with his mouth. I mean, I couldn't get over. His penmanship was terrible. Like everything. I'm like, wait a minute, didn't we go anyway? So I feel like sometimes we need to go back to, to basics. So that might be something that my children are going to be getting and they're stocking this Christmas. Okay, so we're on the kid front.

A (50:43)

Basic manners that you enforce with your young clients, like introducing themselves to adults, come to mind. Shaking hands, making eye contact.

B (50:51)

So five tips for our younger students, our younger children. I mean, beginning at age 5, these are things we can begin to teach and their habits that are important, important for the rest of our life. I would say, number one is introductions. Being able to introduce ourselves with a confident handshake and a smile and a strong voice and eye contact. Teach your children to look for eye color. Have them hunt for the eye color of the person they're speaking to to make sure that their eyes are meeting the person they're speaking to. I mean, what's the stat? Leslie, we meet over 80,000 people over the course of our life on average. Introductions are important. They matter. You will continue to make friends throughout your life. Secondly, helping our children become more comfortable and confident in speaking respectfully to trusted adults. Be it the librarian, if they need help, be it their teacher, they need to ask a question. But becoming more confident in speaking with adults. Your friends and I loved the game you brought up earlier of paying your child a dollar for every question they were asking. I mean, it's gamify these things where we have to to make it more interesting and to get them engaged. Third, we need to teach our children to express gratitude when they leave an event a Birthday party, a friend's house where they've been hosted. It is their responsibility to say thank you to that person, share a compliment, share something pleasant about the experience before they leave. With my own children, it's a game. When we get in the car and go to someone's home, if they remember to do this without me prompting because. Because we transferred that responsibility to my kids, it's their responsibility to say thank you. And then they let me know when they get in the car if they've been able to remember that. Fourth, I want our kids to know how to set the table. A basic place setting, but it's helpful. It's a helpful chore at home. It gets them involved in making the meal, making dinner time a priority. It's also going to get them comfortable at the table when they go and sit down and knowing how to orient themselves with a place setting. And then lastly, really simply just using these power words, please and thank you and excuse me and making that regular within their language is really important. And things we can start early with these younger students.

A (53:02)

This is going to dovetail into my other questions around children addressing adults. But our youngest went to school here in Nashville and he was at a school that manners are very important. You would get demerits if you didn't refer to adults as sir or ma'. Am. And he's now at school up north and he's still using sir and ma'. Am. And I think it's terrific and appropriate. And we were skiing over spring break last year. We were out in Utah and the ski guide said, stop calling me sir. You can call me Dave or whatever. His. And he was an older ski guy and he kept correcting my then 12 year old. And I said, listen, we are.

A (53:58)

We'Re working on going from pizza pie to French fries or whatever. Can we just focus on that and not. So I think this gets into my next question about sometimes my children will, you know, my children will always say Mr. Or Mrs. Whomever the last name of the parent is, or the adult or the teacher. And then sometimes you have adults that say, oh, you don't have to call me Mr. Smith. You can call me Bob. I sort of ignore that and kind of keep saying, did you say thank you to Mr. Smith? And just sort of, sort of subtly hint to the parent that you know he's going to keep. Our children are going to keep calling you Mr. Smith, but is that appropriate? Am I being rude by not allowing them to refer to their. And then sometimes kids call me by my first name. And it's like. I mean, for me, it's like a dog walking on hind legs. And I just sort of don't correct them. But I will speak in the third person sometimes just sort of reinforcing the. The Mr. Or Mrs. So how do you handle this, sir, ma', am, Mr. Mrs. All those things. And it's tricky. I mean, in the South, I think that would really not happen very often, but up north and out west, it does.

B (55:15)

I think a lot of this can depend on where you're geographically located, as you mentioned, in terms of expectations and what's considered the norm. In my home, I teach my children to call my friends and adults by Mr. Or Mrs. And their last name. I have had neighbors that prefer for my kids to call them by their first name. So maybe it's Ms. Nancy, and I respect that personal preference.

A (55:41)

Oh, by the way, Elizabeth Ann, may I correct you, Just not correct you, but stop you there for a second. That has happened here. One of my very good friends from high school and college grew up in Nashville. She lives here now. And, and she said to my children, don't call me Mrs. Ward, call me Ms. Josephine. And I was fine with that because she had said it to them and she sort of still had some formality to it. But it's funny that your neighbors say that I just sort of was exposed to that option here in the South.

B (56:13)

And I'll do my best to remember their preference and then prop my children on that. But my default will always go back to. In my mind, the greatest sign of respect is for a child to use your last name Mr. Or Mrs. And your last name. And so that's what I'm going to remind my children to do and just being comfortable with how you want to be addressed. And yes, you will have others that are uncomfortable with that or they don't identify with their last name, or they've changed their last name, but I think we can respect their preference. But go back to maybe that core of let's use the last name Mr. And Mrs. Last name for our children and how they address adults, I think it's a great sign of respect and a good rule.

A (56:55)

So if so, just to summarize, though, but if an adult says, you can call me Bob, call me Cindy, and they sort of emphasize that over again, your child can do that.

B (57:08)

My children will call our neighbor in this conversation. We'll call her Ms. Gail. That's. That's what she prefers to be called.

A (57:16)

Okay. Okay. All right. So we'll let then the adult Sort of set the rules then there. But we still want to. If we feel this is sort of an important value, we might just say to our kids, it's fine that Mr. Smith wants you to call him Bob, but we still are going to call Mr. Johnson or Mrs. Johnson. Mrs. Johnson, unless they say otherwise. Okay.

B (57:38)

And that's your guide. Exactly.

A (57:40)

So we talked about. Oh, this is another kid one quickly. And a friend asked me to ask you this. What if your child's friend is acting rudely or has bad table manners and you're in charge? What do you do?

B (57:55)

I think this is a great question and a very relevant question. I don't think any of us have been able to avoid a situation like this. We're human, our children are growing and learning. This situation will happen. From my point of view, when you are out in public, it's not our training ground. That's not the place where we are able to really correct and modify that behavior. I think it's after the event that we can reflect and talk about what's happened and then hopefully correct for the next time we're out in public. It's especially tricky when it's not your own child and how those behaviors can rub off on your own children. But I think conversations after the fact are so important to just reinforce what's expected and then just having awareness for where you are in that public space. I mean, dining etiquette is so important. It's when our manners are on display for everyone and our children are on display. We're in this public place. But going back to training at home and through etiquette classes and courses and then hopefully seeing the result of that in public.

A (58:59)

Yeah. So you have a, you brought a friend, one of your children's friends to dinner or whatever and they're jumping up out of their seat, they're running around the restaurant or they're being, I sometimes will say, you know, come have a seat. In our family, we sit through dinner. In our family, we. I just sort of. Absolutely talking about sort of younger age kids and then we never. You never invite them back again to that restaurant or whatever it is. But you are, if you're the adult in charge, you're not going to change. You know, it's not going to have a long term impact. But you do want to let that child kind of know what your.

A (59:35)

What.

B (59:35)

Your expectations are and also the rules in your home. So in my home for dinner, we stay at the table even after you finish your meal. So if my children have friends over and they finished with their meal. We still sit together until we finish. And that's our, the role in our home, which would apply to our guest as well. And I think for children, we need to be able to vocalize that to them, which would be so different than a peer sitting at your table.

A (60:01)

Okay. All right. So I'm mindful of the time. I've got a bunch of other things to cover we might do. Like this is like a rapid fire. I've got a lot of questions. We talked about phone etiquette. Never bring your phone, you know, place your phone on the table. Are there any parameters that few of us use call people these days? But when you are calling someone, when is too late, when is too early, and are Sunday and Saturdays off limits?

B (60:29)

I want to answer that, but I also want to answer that, yes, we are not teaching our children phone etiquette because we're delaying when they are getting a phone. But I think all of us should consider having a home phone so that we can teach our children proper phone etiquette at an earlier age in a safe environment. In terms of parameters, I think for. Go ahead, Leslie.

A (60:49)

Well, so interesting you say that because we noticed this a few years ago. You know, when you have. How many children do you have, Elizabeth?

B (60:56)

I have three. I have three. First grader, second grader, and a three year old son.

A (61:01)

Oh my gosh. So I, you know, you can relate to the third. I'm sure that you're on top of all three. But I noticed that when we got around to number three, we sort of noticed, hey, he can't, you know, we just were not as diligent about it. We just sort of thought the older ones would kind of bring him along. And I noticed that when he would pick up the phone, a cell phone, I'm like, talk to your grandmother or whatever, he would hold it. Like he didn't even actually know how to properly hold a phone. And so I made a list of, you know, friendly phone numbers that he could practice on our landline. Calling relatives and very good friends to say, this is Lachlan, you know, kind of. And I notice now with my children, my two older ones, I'm like, you can call the restaurant to make the reservation. And they're like deer, cotton, headlights. I mean, it's really. So we need to be really intentional about that and kind of teach it to them because it's totally different.

B (61:55)

It's an important skill. You need to call and make a doctor's appointment or change an appointment. You need to know proper phone Etiquette. And we can teach that at an early age.

A (62:06)

And first, if you introduce yourself right out of the gate of who's calling. Right. And then. Yeah. Any other tips that you. Or things that.

B (62:16)

Oh. With being able to get properly answer the phone. So this is however you want your phone answered, your landline answered in your home and having almost a script that your children know that's safe and meets the values of your family. And then also when you're placing a call, introducing yourself, being prepared with what you're going to say in terms of whatever request it may be so that you're not fumbling with that language it's taught. These are things that we teach.

A (62:47)

Yes. I remember when I was much younger I was supposed to say bath gate resident. I mean it was sort of bath gate residence when I, when someone would call the house. Interesting. I'm really dropping the ball on the phone etiquette.

B (63:01)

I loved your question around parameters. When can you call others? When I think we can all agree that our phones are our greatest distraction and there's such a fight for our focus and attention and how can we respect that space for others as well? So I think if it's a work related call, let's try to not call over the weekend. It should be between the hours, maybe 8am to 6pm and also be respectful of the time zone where you're calling. So let's think about who's receiving this call and always assume that their phone will be on and it will ring. And we wouldn't want to disrupt the end of their day or time with their family. And for closer friends, I think just be mindful of their routines and respectful of how they're managing their time. I have dear friends that go to bed as soon as their kids are in bed. So I would never call or text them later in the day because I wouldn't want to disrupt that part of their peace in the time that they've set apart with their family.

A (63:58)

I sort of, when we were all on landlines back in the day, you know, way back in the day, you know, I would remember I couldn't call friends after 9 o' clock was the time. And to me calling before 8:30 is also way too early. I think some of my friends and family forget that I'm an hour behind. So I will get a phone call at 7 in the morning or 7:30 in the morning. So you think sort of 8am to 9pm and then Sunday and Saturday. Unless it's really important or it has to do with Plans then? I don't generally. I mean, I'll send some reels and I'll send some texts, but I won't be calling anybody on the phone.

B (64:40)

I think it's wise to have those boundaries and just establish those for your house.

A (64:46)

So I got this from a friend whose older parents and in laws will talk on speakerphone all the time. And we'll walk around talking on speakerphone. When is speakerphone appropriate? You kind of need to tell people that they're on speakerphone.

B (65:03)

I think if you're driving. A lot of us are using speakerphone because it's a bit safer to not be touching your phone. But I think you should always announce, hey, Leslie, you're on speakerphone right now. My children are in the car or my husband's sitting next to me. Also let them know who is with you and also can hear your conversation. I think it's a great sign of respect. And also if the call's being recorded, there's some legality around all of this as well. But I think disclosing that up front is also respectful and the right thing to do.

A (65:32)

Okay, some. Two other hot topics. Airplane etiquette. Do's and don'ts. Elbows on armrests, window shades, up, down, reclining seats. I'm sure there's a thousand others because we know how crazy people get on planes, but those are. I was on a flight from New York back to Nashville last week, and there was a child who was maybe four. I mean, if I tell you, like, playing my seat like it was a piano, I mean, smashing my seat the entire time. And finally. And his mother was sitting next to him, and she had another child, you know, in all fairness to the left side. But I finally said, sweetheart, would you mind. I turned around, would you mind please to stop kicking my seat? And she had asked him a couple of times to stop, and he kept doing it. Because I think. I mean, it was not even just like a. It was a continual. Is that so? Tell us about those things and what's the right way to handle it.

B (66:26)

In my mind, the heart of etiquette is putting others first. So having this awareness of other people and how can we be respectful and courteous in our actions and words? So if that's our kind of our guiding force when you're in an airplane, how can we make space for other people? Elbows on our armrest. What if we were just to default to the person next to us? What if we gave them that space? What if. What if window shades up or down. What if we were to maybe ask the person next to us what they prefer. Reclining seats. What if we look behind us and see if there is space to recline our seat before we recline our seat? Some of the things I teach my children to remember when we're flying or traveling, it's, we want to be respectful and cleaning up after ourselves. We want to leave spaces better than we found them. We want to wear headphones if we're on a plane.

A (67:13)

Oh, my gosh, that is. And there are some places in the world where I think that people don't think they'll just be watching a movie in full volume. And I am, like, absolutely baffled by it. And then in those cases, because sometimes you don't want to necessarily, if you're sitting in front of someone for seven hours, have some sort of a kerfuffle where you've got some war going on between airline seats. So I'll sort of say to the flight attendant, maybe excuse myself. I don't announce, obviously, to my seatmate that I'm going to use the restroom, but I'll get up and just say to the flight attendant, I have someone behind me who's listening. Would you please? And sort of put it to the flight attendant to handle that.

B (67:56)

And speaking of flight attendants, I mean, I think it's a great courtesy after a flight. Let's thank them for their service on the plane. Let's thank the pilot. Let's make eye contact and make sure that they know we appreciate their time. I think that it's so important, and things happen. I mean, I flew back from India next to a cat recently that screamed almost the entire time like a baby.

A (68:19)

These things happen.

B (68:20)

And sometimes you just have to embrace it as a memory. Let it be a duck. Let things roll off the flight will end story to tell and move along.

A (68:32)

My husband had someone next to him who took their shoes off, took their socks off, and started, like, shaving his feet. The skin off his feet, flicking it on the floor, putting cream on. He did one foot. And then finally when he got to the second foot, my husband was like, hey, hey, this is not your bathroom, okay? Because he just couldn't take it. I mean, he couldn't believe what was happening. I mean, so there are those instances where sometimes, I mean, the cat, in that case, you can't reason with a cat. And I don't know what you could, but some people are bananas and so. And I guess maybe always you can bring the flight attendant in, right? If you're a little bit more shy about Engaging.

A (69:18)

Okay, this is an embarrassing question, but it was asked by two listeners, what if you have either pass gas or burp? Do you acknowledge it? By the way, my answer would be, absolutely not, maybe. I actually worked with a woman when I was a young associate at a law firm, and she was an older woman who had come in on this special case. She had a certain expertise, and she would stand in the doorway of my office and was just chatting with me and would pass gas audibly and then say, excuse me, and keep talking. And I remember thinking to myself, did that just happen? I just couldn't even believe it happened. I just couldn't. It would have happened all. All the time. And I remember coming home and just saying, like, please, God, don't ever let me get to the. But, you know, listen, I'm 51. Maybe when I'm in my 60s.

A (70:15)

God forbid, but that. That could be happening. But she would apologize. This was not a question for me. This was a listener's question. But do you. But I.

B (70:25)

Anyway.

B (70:27)

Do you ignore it, or do we acknowledge. Is that the question?

A (70:30)

Yes. We ignore or do we acknowledge?

B (70:32)

I think it depends on the situation and also the amount of bravery you're feeling at the time. Excuse me. Is always polite, and it's gentle, and you can laugh. I mean, we're human.

A (70:43)

We are human.

B (70:44)

These things happen. But I think it's also perfectly polite to just move along.

A (70:50)

Yes, I think that. I mean, I'm definitely in camp move along. But this will. Because I found it so embarrassing for me that she acknowledged it, because I'd almost rather just have it think, like, did something happen? Did someone's arm move the wrong way? Could it be something else? Could it not be what I thought it was? And then when she said, oh, excuse me, and I'm gonna keep that, so someone burps. I guess it's also cultural. There are some cultures where that's polite, but let's say it's not. We're in the US Maybe, or some place in the US where it's not. Anyway, we just. Excuse me. And then you're gonna use it to your discretion. On the other, another listener. What if your fly is open or someone's fly is open? Do you tell them that their fly is open?

B (71:34)

Please tell them. Please tell them it stops this action and so it doesn't continue for the rest of the day and make them more vulnerable around more people. I think it is the kind and courteous and right thing to do to let them know if there's spinach between Your tweet teeth or your blouse is unbuttoned or whatever it may be, let.

A (71:55)

Them know, okay, I always do. Sort of your barn door is open. I just want, you know, just to make it a little bit softer than your fly is open. But you know, okay, so we do. Now this is a final or final hot topic is on tipping. Very hot topic. When is it required? For what services?

A (72:18)

What percentage? I mean we could go on and on. Tell me your rule of thumb there.

B (72:25)

Roughly, I'll just back up to say tipping has been added to almost every transaction imaginable. The grocery store I go to and shop here in Charlotte. There's also an option to tip on my groceries. So you can tip for absolutely anything and it's now just baked into every transaction. From an etiquette perspective, we're looking in the United States for travel related items. We want to tip. In restaurants, food services, we want to tip. And in salons would roughly be the three categories we're tipping.

A (73:01)

When you say travel related, do you mean taxi?

B (73:04)

Taxi, valet, travel related niceties. From my perspective, I think 20% is standard. A, I think it's easy to calculate. B, I think for good service that's well received and it's just a flat across the board good way to tip within the United States.

A (73:23)

What about when 20%, for example your groceries. I mean if you're spending 500. I mean that is the part where. And you're right, it's to me this is the rule of thumb that I have been using. Although you it's embarrassing because they'll flip it around. If you go to a place like let's say a coffee shop, there I would tip. But groceries or things like that where the person behind they're really not doing a service, that 20% is commensurate with what they've done. If you spend $300 on your groceries, you shouldn't have to pay that person $60 for checking you out.

A (74:02)

Do you add 5, 10, 20? Or what about a sky cap at an airport? Like things that are not connected to a.

A (74:12)

And also with your hair sometimes like if you're your hair colored, you know, and it costs more. Do you. So what kind of guidelines do you use around that?

B (74:21)

I think it should always be within your means, number one. And again, it's a gesture to acknowledge their service. If I personally do not tip in the grocery store, but if my groceries are delivered, I will tip on that delivery. For a coffee, I don't do 20% of the order. Usually it's A dollar per beverage is kind of my rule of thumb. Or if you're getting a drink elsewhere, a dollar or so per beverage, depending on the cost of the drink. It's kind of how I think about that.

A (74:50)

Leslie, another question from a listener is teachers and holiday gifts and holiday gift giving. And one of my very closest and oldest friends is a teacher and I asked her this question and she said she does not like getting gift cards to restaurants or a gift card, she said having a class pull together and get a gift card to Amazon or something that she can actually use because she said actually teachers spend often a lot of their own money getting supplies that are not covered. And so if you give a group gift that's like at Amazon or Target or something that the teacher can use if they choose to, to supplement their curriculum or just for themselves, she said that. And then a handwritten note from the child. So do you have sort of tell us what your thinking is on that and then holiday tipping and who do you need to tip at the holidays?

B (75:51)

So I think this is a beautiful question. We love our teachers so very much. And I would never think of this as a tip because it's not a service. It's, you know, it's their profession. It's a different type of, type of work. So I would see it as a gift. Some schools and schools in our area have policies that restrict the value of the gift. So I would just encourage everyone to know what the policy at their school might be. I love the idea of a pulled gift if that's most meaningful for that teacher. And I agree with you, they're often dipping into their own pockets to serve their classroom and this can be a way for us to give back to them. I think a handwritten note is such a beautiful touch. I love writing them myself to the teacher to just acknowledge what I've seen in them and what their time and dedication means to our family. But I think also coming from the child means so much and it's a great opportunity for them to reflect on this person that's loved and cared for them throughout the year. But yes, I'm pro group gifts for teachers if that's most meaningful for them.

A (76:53)

What my friend also said was exactly what you're saying and that the note from the student have some, like could be one line, but some personal anecdote. So it's not just thank you so much for being such a great teacher. It's thank you so much for helping me learn addition or whatever the, you know, something sweet and personal and it could literally just be a line was one of the things she said. But holiday tipping, what are we. We're talking.

B (77:20)

So rules of thumb for holiday tipping and I'm just going to kind of go through different categories. So landscaper, roughly one week of whatever that service might be could be a great holiday tip. Babysitter. If you regularly use a babysitter, maybe it's one week of whatever you would normally share with your babysitter. Nanny. I like one month of whatever that might be for that individual as their holiday gift for a stylist, personal trainer, massage therapist, nail technician, all those people in our lives that can make our day to day so much better. I think the cost of one session roughly can be gift for mail carriers and delivery staff. Sometimes there are restrictions on cash gifts, but I love having a gift with the equivalent value of, you know, maybe it's 20, 30, $40 equivalent value gift for those people in our lives that make the day to day work.

A (78:18)

I know the mail carrier and sort of, if you have the same person delivering UPS or FedEx is a nice, really nice gesture. And it could be, as you said, $20, $30, $40, just something to recognize them and a note.

B (78:31)

Everything should have a note, right? Note to everyone.

A (78:36)

One final question because I forgot to ask it when we were talking about dining and this came from my 11 year old niece. Two things. When you don't like something, what do you do? And then what if.

A (78:50)

This has actually happened to me at a dinner party where I was hosting a dinner party and then the guest came in the kitchen and said you're not serving this, this or this, are you? Because my husband's gluten intolerant and doesn't he. I mean literally this guy didn't. There wasn't a thing on his list that I could have served chicken and maybe vegetables and that would have. But if you have such a restrictive diet. So first, what do you do if you don't like it? And I think I know the answer, but this is important to the 11 year old. I said, well, you can move it around your plate a little bit and you just don't say, but I want to hear what you have to say. And then also how far does the hostess need to go to accommodate people's dietary restrictions? Is it really, should the responsibility kind of be on them to sort of navigate that and not expect the hostess to have.

A (79:42)

Everything be gluten free and dairy free and vegan? So what are your thoughts here?

B (79:49)

These are such good questions. I think first say you're served a green odd food you've never seen before and it really is distasteful to you. I think it's not anything we ever announce. I also wouldn't want you to compliment that food and be insincere and saying it's something you loved, but I think it's just you eat other things that you've been served, enjoy those and just move aside. If there's something that doesn't fit your palate, that is okay. But no need to announce or make any sort of scene. From a dietary perspective, this is tough. We have a lot of allergies and food restrictions. And I think if you are the person that has a food restriction or food allergy, I think letting the host know as far in advance as possible. Some of these allergies, though, are so severe, sometimes celiac gluten can't be prepared in the same kitchen, which may be impossible for the person hosting to accommodate. So maybe you are bringing something. But I think there needs to be a conversation before the dinner so that those special requests can be. Can be cared for.

A (80:59)

So you would say to the hostess, you've been invited to dinner and let's say you do have celiacs. I have a very good friend who does and actually she'll bring her own. She said, I'm just going to bring something. I hope you don't mind, just because it's easier for me to know. That's worked out really well. But for, you know, let them know as soon as in advance. And then you should let them know, like, I'm so thrilled to be coming. Just so you know, you don't have to rearrange your plans, but we are allergic to shellfish or whatever. I had another friend come over. I had made some simple ina garden recipe of linguine with. It was like a shrimp scampi. And I said, because someone else who's at the dinner said that they didn't eat. Like they announced this as they're there. And I had. This is. I'm like, it's a one pot. I was trying to super casual. And he said, oh, no, we're great. Well, you just, you know I'm allergic to shellfish, right? I'm like, oh, no, no, we didn't. I forgot that. Thank you for. I mean, it's just too, it's too hard to keep track. So anyway, so also maybe for the hostess just to know that you have something right, like the salad or something, if you miss somebody in the prep, that there's something without Killing yourself too much.

B (82:08)

Exactly.

A (82:10)

Elizabeth Ann, what else did we miss? Anything? I feel like we covered a lot of great ground. We spoke for a lot longer than. I am so sorry that I really took up your warning here, but I.

B (82:21)

Had chat with you today, Leslie, and I feel like we've covered so much. We could write a book on this.

A (82:26)

I know. Well, I mean, you've got all the. Sorry to, you know, give you some of these, like, middle school kind of questions around burping and the like, but these are real life.

B (82:40)

We are human issues that people, not robots.

B (82:44)

Yes.

A (82:45)

And it's good to know that, you know, I sort of like, rule of thumb, follow your host. Sort of always try to be polite and kind and sort of. You're just going to have to kind of sometimes just feel it out in the moment and see what feels right.

B (82:59)

Have an awareness of others and send more thank you notes.

A (83:03)

Yes, send more thank you notes. We're getting all the things from your mannerly website and all of your incredible etiquette classes. And you know, Elizabeth Ann does so many amazing things in this space. So I'm just so grateful to you for being on and giving us your expert perspective because clearly it's much needed. I mean, we could have been on for another hour. I. I'm sure I have. Who knew? Any questions? I just happened to. My niece said, yeah, what do you do when you, you know, I'm like, oh, wow, that's one I hadn't thought to ask.

B (83:32)

They're great questions.

A (83:33)

Yeah. I'm really grateful to you for taking the time. Thank you so much.

B (83:37)

Thank you, Leslie.

A (83:43)

That brings us to the end of this episode of Duologue. A huge thank you to Elizabeth Ann Russell for joining. I learned so much from Elizabeth and after recording the episode, I realized I had even more questions for her. So I'm hoping we can get her back on the podcast at some point soon. Also, a huge shout out to our sponsor, Cozy Earth. Don't forget to check out all of their amazing products on their website, cozyearth.com and use the promo code duologue at checkout for 20% off. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate or review us on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We release a new episode every Wednesday. So until next Wednesday, this is Leslie. And thanks for listening to Duolog.