← Duologue with Leslie Heaney
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- [00:05]
Leslie Heaney
Hello, everybody, this is Leslie, and you're listening to the interview with Leslie Heaney. So instead of outrage in response to the horrific attacks on Israel on October 7, antisemitism erupted on our college campuses and throughout the world. Many Jewish authors had speaking engagements canceled, their book deals were canceled. Jewish bookstore owners and publishing houses were boycotted. In response to this author, podcaster and founder of Zibit Media, Zibi Owens took action. Zibi reached out to her fellow Jewish authors and Jewish advocates to ask them to write essays about their experiences on what it feels like to be Jewish after October 7th. Over 100 Jewish authors and advocates responded. And the result is this incredible and amazing book edited by Zibi, entitled On Being Jewish Now. All proceeds from the book sales of On Being Jewish now benefit artists against antisemitism, of which Zibby is also a co founder. So in today's episode, I speak with five of these courageous authors and advocates. Lisa Barr, author of the best selling Woman on Fire and the Goddess of Warsaw. Judy Batalion, who's the bestselling author of the Untold Story of Women Resistance Fighters in Hitler's Ghettos, which has been optioned by Steven Spielberg. Alyssa Rosenheck, who's a celebrated interiors photographer. She's been recognized by AD as one of the top photographers in the country. She's also a writer and a real advocate. David Kaufman, who's a writer and editor and columnist for the New York Post. And last but certainly not least, Nicola Krause, who's the bestselling author of the Nanny Diaries, among several other bestselling works. In this episode, we talk about the antisemitism that they faced since October 7, what it feels like for them to be Jewish in this moment, and what they're doing to combat antisemitism and hate, and frankly, what we all can and should be doing to help. I admire each of these people so much for all that they're doing. Zibby for everything that she's doing and everyone who is a contributor to this book and beyond who's standing up against antisemitism and hatred to let really the world know that it's unacceptable and it must stop. So I hope that you all learn as much from this conversation as I did. It was really meaningful for me to speak to these incredible champions, and I think it'll be very meaningful for you, too. But, Lisa, I'll start with you. Tell me, how did you first hear about this book?
- [02:47]
Lisa Barr
Well, I was one of the founders of the Artist Against Anti Semitism, and I'm very close to Zivi. And it became a conversation in an Instagram chat. And she had this idea, and we said, go for it. We're in. And then, you know, Zivi, it was like, boom. And she was off and putting on Being Jewish now together. And it was just, you know, everyone wanted to be part of it. So it just. It went very quickly, very much like the Artists Against Antisemitism, which started with, you know, six of us, you know, sort of dealing with the shock of everything going on after October 7th and in the book world. And we thought, what can we do? How do we react? And it went very quickly from 6 to 35 to over 100 authors and artists. And the same thing happened here. I think people just really needed a place to put everything they were feeling.
- [03:48]
Alyssa Rosenheck
And I had personally shared my own experiences with Zibby, and I think that all of us who are writers and authors have been sharing because there's been a silencing and a boycott with Jewish authors globally in the publishing world. And so I had personal effects from that when my content just shifted from. I'm an interiors and architectural photographer, so my content shifted from homes, essentially, to Hamas and education in support of the Jewish community and education for the safety and security of Israel. And I lost a big book deal last year. My me being verbal and vocal online, I think the thing that's been very impactful with artists and antisemitism, we're not only a group who are very dedicated to this cause, but Hager involved Project Shema, which is an organization that is trying to change the paradigm in DEI right now. DEI as it relates to the Jewish community isolates the Jews because we're not falling into a specific binary of oppressed versus oppressor. And Project Shema is a really beautiful, impactful organization that is targeting anti Jewish and anti Israel ideas on a civic level, a corporate level, on a collegiate level, while also having meetings with main publishers to also help get rid of the boycotts and the silencing against Jewish authors and literature right now. And so it's a strong arm in helping combat the narrator of those who have power and those who are powerless. And the way I can explain this for the listener, Pamela Pareski is a really important voice right now. And when she talks about when whiteness is a mainstream societal conversation, this correlates with some of the narratives within DEI and CRT. When whiteness was a moral good during World War II, the Jews were an inferior subhuman race and Then when whiteness is considered an unmitigatable evil, which we're experiencing right now and have for a few years, the Jews are the most oppressive, colonizing force. And so when organizations on a civic and a corporate and a collegiate level are only looking at life through this certain binary of oppressed versus oppressor, the Jews are often scapegoated towards whatever societal ills are happening at that time. And it's a very dangerous conspiracy theory, which is antisemitism. And so Project Shema is really combating those. Those narratives.
- [06:35]
Leslie Heaney
How does the organization work? There's a board or there's an executive director, and you're. You're going out and you're deciding who you. What publisher you're speaking with, or are you talking with associations, collegiate associations, or what is your kind of go to or roadmap for that? And maybe I'll ask Lisa that, because you. You're very involved with the organization, too.
- [06:55]
Lisa Barr
Yeah, just on a simple level, it's kind of a divide and conquer. So, you know, what started off as this fledgling group that came together, and we ended up raising over 120,000 for Project Shema in our Hanukkah auction. That over 400 people came and donated. It was just incredible. It was like, you know, we didn't understand how much this would have an impact. Excuse me. So after that, decided to really create an organization out of it. So there's, you know, president, there's vice presidents, there's people on the board, myself, someone else. We're kind of in charge of publicity, reaching out to various media, you know, when something's coming up. But we also, not just Project Shema, but the Jewish Book Council, you know, all different things. You know, everyone is reaching out. And again, none of us are professionals at this. I'm writing full time and touring. And so we're all squeezing it in in various ways, but we understand the importance, especially right now, of this organization. So we have an auction coming up, kind of a 2.0 from what we did last time. For example, if a movie is being shown at a library that is antisemitic, we all join in. We send letters, we send various things. So it's a safe place for authors and artists. If there's an antisemitic incident that happens, and we give them tools and we sort of collectively help them. And it's also a way to educate bookstores. We're putting all kinds of information. We've worked with the Anti Defamation League, and so it's been a lot of collabs kind of across the board and it's, we need this right now. And, you know, I know just kind of on a personal note, you know, given I'm a daughter of a Holocaust survivor, I. I'm very pro Israel on my social media and I'm an author of, you know, World War II historical thrillers that are Holocaust themed. I was having at least 50 to 60 Hamas types, you know, bombard me all day and plus, you know, blacklists and cancellations and, you know, you feel so alone. And this has been a great way to, you know, bring other people to help you navigate various things that are happening right now in the book world.
- [09:36]
Leslie Heaney
It's just shocking to me that you even have to be doing this, this work, you know, that's happening.
- [09:41]
Lisa Barr
I just. Yeah, obviously, I don't mean to monopolize this in any way, but just to give you an example, a few days ago I have a big event at the Chicago Public Library and I had to call and say, hey, is this a safe place for a Jewish author? What do I need to know? What do I need to do? I mean, it was like 1933. I said, I can't believe I'm making this call, but I need to know.
- [10:07]
Leslie Heaney
And I think, Judy, you had a similar experience, right. You wrote your essay in the book, talked about, you know, something that Lisa was just talking about, which was before you went to go speak at an American college. They were talking about security and your safety and. Which again, is just so horrifying to me that that's even a subject that we're concerned about at 2024 on American college campuses. But tell me about that experience and also why you chose to write about that in particular as your contribution to the book.
- [10:36]
Judy Batalion
All right, that's like a 20 part question. I will.
- [10:43]
Leslie Heaney
That's how I like to do it. You know, just. Yeah, keep you on your toes. Right.
- [10:46]
Judy Batalion
You know, so let me start by telling a bit about the essay that I wrote for this insology was. So I've been a professional public speaker for a number of years, lecturer at universities, I've spoken about my books, also used to do standup comedy. Used to be funny back in the day. I'm not anymore. But I was very experienced with being on stage until, you know, October 7th happened. And there was quite a change for me. Now, what the essay was, an essay called Performance Anxiety was that I've always had anxiety getting on stage. I've been heckled, I've been argued with, I've been debated with. I've had many. As anyone who speaks publicly, there's been many mishaps. Most recently, though, I've been lecturing about my last book, which was a narrative nonfiction book called the Light of Days, which was a story of young Jewish women who fought the Nazis, who were part of the underground in Poland, part of a large organized underground.
- [11:51]
Lisa Barr
This is a history book.
- [11:54]
Judy Batalion
And I lecture for the past couple of years focused on the Holocaust. Never in the two years of lecturing and I lectured widely around the country, around the world, did I ever think about my personal security until last October and what started to happen. And this is the piece I wrote. Sorry I'm babbling a little, but the piece I wrote was about the fear, both on my part and on the organization's part, of inviting me to speak at a university at a liberal arts college in the US in the Northeast. And the fear that both myself and the organizers had about the event becoming violent, becoming dangerous, becoming a low case that could potentially be used to become political in a way that, you know, just because it was a publicly Jewish event and I was a publicly Jewish speaker. And as we shall saying, it's the ship. They were telling egress routes from the room in case there was going to be an issue. They were trying to figure out who the attendees were in advance. They were given protocols for how to manage potentially riotous or difficult situations. There was tremendous anxiety on their part as well about we all went ahead and we all did it. And, you know, it turned into a actually positive experience, which is why I chose to write about it for this anthology, because it ended up being a moment of Jewish connection. And it turned out to be a wonderful one where Jews from the entire basically the region came together to this lecture and been the first time they'd gathered since October 7th. So that was very important to them. Sorry, that went on way too long.
- [13:46]
Leslie Heaney
No, not at all. And I can't recall, I think it was your essay, Judy, that you talked about, I think right before you were about to go on stage that you, one of the organizers, you know, you asked them, well, you know, the students know about the Holocaust. I don't need to cover that. And he sort of said, you know, well, actually, I'm not sure which.
- [14:09]
Judy Batalion
That wasn't that episode, that instance that that didn't happen then. That's happened to me over the past few years. Ok. That was part of the discussion of what sometimes the anxiety of speaking is. And moments before, I went on stage in this enormous lecture hall, this amazing university facility in the Rust Belt. It dawned on me, do these students know what the Holocaust is? And the organizer was like, actually, I don't know, maybe mention it. So that happened a few years ago. But even then I did not think, feel worried. I was worried that I didn't know what to say, but I didn't feel worried for my safety or security. That wasn't even. That was not part of the equation at all.
- [14:55]
Leslie Heaney
Alyssa, did you have an experience like that?
- [14:59]
Alyssa Rosenheck
I just wanted to throw out a statistic.
- [15:01]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [15:02]
Alyssa Rosenheck
According to the Economist, one in five young Americans believe that the Holocaust is still a myth.
- [15:10]
Lisa Barr
Very distinctive.
- [15:11]
Alyssa Rosenheck
I can throw out more statistics if you would like as well.
- [15:13]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [15:14]
Alyssa Rosenheck
The American Jewish Committee comes out with an annual antisemitism report. And it's very helpful and impactful. One in two Americans right now are changing their identity to avoid antisemitism. So whether it's removing their kipas, their Star Davids, their mezuzahs, one in four college students are in fear physical violence and are also encouraged to continue their studies inside as we see American flags and Israeli flags being burned in quads. According to ResumeBuilder.com, one in four hiring managers are not advancing Jewish applicants. One in four hiring managers. Additionally, one in five American small businesses, according to the AJC's report, have experienced boycotts, vandalism, and antisemitic graffiti on their brick and mortars. One in five small American businesses in the United States.
- [16:11]
Leslie Heaney
It's incredible to me, you know, that would. That would not never be tolerated today with any other, if any, other group.
- [16:18]
Alyssa Rosenheck
And that the double standard that you see with the Jewish. Well, with how the Jewish community is advocated for or not. Natan Sharansky is an extraordinary voice, and he came out with three Ds of anti Semitism and it's double standards, delegitimization and the dehumanization as it comes to the Jewish community globally and or the state of Israel.
- [16:43]
Leslie Heaney
David, you talk a bit about diversity, right. And your own experience and sort of how the, you know, this is an opportunity to bring the Jewish community together. Right. For every Jewish person to have a seat at the table. Do you want to talk a little bit about your essay and why you decided to write about what you wrote about?
- [17:05]
David Kaufman
Sure, yeah. I mean, my essay sort of came from a conversation that somebody had relatively early in this whole post October 7th cycle. It was a response to the feelings that I think a lot of folks had about feeling betrayed and was so disappointed and let down by all the progressive groups that Jews had supported. For all these years, you know, gay groups and blm, Black Lives Matter feminists, all the folks who we've showed up for, who didn't show up for us, and not only didn't show up for us, but, you know, it wasn't that they were kind of. They sat there passively, quietly. They actually actively turned against us and. And really poured fuel on this raging fire. And someone so sort of asked me, well, what do we. You know, they were obviously very, very optimistic. But, like, what do we do when this is over? How do we. How do we reconvene? You know, how do we bring these folks back to the table? And my response was, you know, we don't bring these people back to the table. You know, we create a new table and we create our own table. You know, we don't bring them back to the table. Not because we don't support these issues. Of course we support these issues. You know, we're Jews. We've always been at the forefront of supporting progressive and liberal issues and social justice issues. But, you know, a, it's okay to take a break from supporting other people while we sort of focus inward. And B, you know, what I saw, I was not ever a particularly activist kind of person. I was just kind of like a regular New York guy, you know, with, like, kids and stuff and, you know, working at the New York Post. But what I saw within, and of course, being mixed race, I always knew that there were always, you know, Jews of color out there and all different kinds of Jews. But I wasn't particularly part of any community, and I'm not still so much today. But I did see online so many other. Other, you know, diverse Jews out there who were really advocating, advocating for Israel, advocating for Jewish causes, advocating against antisemitism. And what it occurred to me was that, you know, if we are, as Jews and Jewish organizations, looking to invest in communities that are, you know, hashtag diverse when it comes to sexuality or when it comes to race or it comes to, you know, lived experience, as folks would say, well, we have all these things within jesm itself. Like, I put up an Instagram hashtag once saying, like, we can't exclude Jews from intersectionality because Jews inter. Literally intersect with everybody. You know, so if we're looking to define these diverse communities, these intersectional communities out there, in order to support them, you know, we can find them in the Jewish world. There are, you know, if we're looking to support racial minorities, there are Jewish racial minorities, there are Jewish sexual minorities, there are Jewish feminists. There are Jewish folks who are disabled. There are Jewish, you know, nuclear disarmament people. There are Jewish, Latins, anything we want in terms of like trying to connect with, you know, folks who might have, not traditionally have seats at the table or who might have lower profiles in, in, in, in the world, you know, we can find them, we can find Jewish examples. So you don't ha. It's like a twofer. You know, you don't have to give up the desire to be progressive and invest in social justice causes. You can just do it in a Jewish context. And I think also the whole challenge with DEI is that, you know, DEI was never made for Jews. It's not that necessarily DEI was, was established to work against Jews. I wouldn't go that far because I don't think people were thinking about Jews when they were thinking about dei. I don't think there was some sort of like panel or some committee that said we're going to, you know, we're going to imperil Jews by devising dei. The problem is that the structure that has allowed that to happen was baked into the origins of DEI because of the way in which DEI is practiced and the hierarchical nature of dei. And I say this as somebody who, you know, I don't think DEI necessarily should be dismantled or abandoned. I think there still is a lot of need for these types of programs. My attitude is like, as long as we have racism, there's going to be some need for dei. The problem is DEI needs to be reimagined. It needs to be reimagined, centering or including or prioritizing Jewish needs. Because there is no more imperiled group in America right now than Jews. Let's just face it, that's just the truth. So my essay again was talking about this idea of, you know, Jews who want to and should and feel a moral imperative to invest in progressive and diverse, diverse issues and community building issues. We don't have to be slaves to this idea that we must support all these other folks. We should really invest in ourselves. Right now. We can take a pause. We've done our work already with all of these other communities and now it's really time to look inward. And we can find all. In the quest for diversity, we can find all the diversity we want and need within Judaism and we should look there and invest in it.
- [22:05]
Lisa Barr
Just to say something, I think there was after October 7th and you were mentioning all these various causes, especially when we're talking about young women or men who were raped on October 7 and the complete silence. The celebrities, we've looked up to various. Various things that did not happen. And I think the shock factor took a long time for us to get over, to get to the point that you're talking about, which really, if you take that, you strip down everything you said, is almost like we're on our own here, and we have to really, really invest in ourselves, because all parts of everything that you said is a part of the Jewish community. And I think before that, we were so excited to be part of all these other movements, walk with them, march with them, do these things. And this backstabbing, this shock factor, you know, until we kind of were stable again, and we can now go into the next phase, which is depending on ourselves and really taking it from there. So it is interesting in a way how over this year, there has been really an evolution. I mean, I've seen friends who never would even consider lighting the candles on Shabbat. It just wasn't their thing. But they're lighting the candles. You know, there has been silver lining, a return to Judaism, and as you're saying, depending on ourselves. Now, I think Israel is also taking that attitude. You know, it can't be, you know, who likes us, who doesn't. It's like, we gotta survive here. And so it's very interesting that we are at that exact moment that you're mentioning right now.
- [23:58]
David Kaufman
And I think it's really important to remember that, you know, I think that there's been a little bit of a, you know, living in sort of some sort of fantasy world. And this is not to, like, harsh on Jews. Like, I think Jews are by necessity, by survival, necessity are very optimistic people. We have to be optimistic people. Or else. Like, you know, if we were to, like, walk around thinking about all the things that have happened to us over 5,000 years, it'd be hard to get out of that, you know, but, like, the writing was on the wall. You know, blm, in its foundational charter, was advocating for Palestine. The women's march after Trump was elected was all about Linda Sarcer, all about being mired in Palestinian issues. If you look at day marches and gay film festivals and all the things around the LGBT movement over the last 10 years, they've always, always, always found themselves descending into these issues around Israel, Palestine. You know, you've seen, you know, you've. You've seen, you know, two issues, for instance, when it comes to, you know, gay pride marches over the last 10 years, issues around, you know, whether or not police can be allowed to protest and Issues around whether Israel can be around. Not the protest, not China, not Russia, not Iran, not all of these other evil empires out there, not the Israel's evil empire, but always Israel. So there's, and let's not even talk about, you know, things went on in, on campuses. Let's just leave that alone. But like just in these sort of social justice moments, these things have been happening for 10 years. Like there's no surprise. And it's, oh, and I call it like movement mooching where movements mooch off each other, you know, and I'm always like, why are these folks, like, why? What is the motivation, what is the imperative for these groups to literally be willing to sacrifice themselves almost for the cause of being anti Israel? Particularly like if you look what happened with the women's movement, you know, right after Trump was elected, that movement, and same with blm, in some ways almost split because of their aggressive attachment to pro Palestinian causes. And you're thinking to yourself, what does the protection of a woman's right to choose and access to abortion have to do with, you know, a barricade in Gaza? They don't have anything to do with each other at all. And I think one more thing is that again, this is, this is a critique, not a crit. It's an observation, you know, but what's challenging is that, you know, we are a minority. We are a very small minority. There are not a lot of Jews in this world. And people have this idea, you know, we're an outsized minority and we're an over represented minority in many, in many ways. And you know, Jews have been, you know, extremely successful in the Western world, but we're still a minority and there's very, very, very few of us. And I think that there is understandably, this is a critique, not a criticism, understandably a timidity in standing up and speaking up. Because A, we haven't had to, you know, for most of our existence in the United States. We've had, things have been pretty good, you know, so we don't know how B, the moment we sort of speak up and say this is happening, it almost sort of like makes it real, you know, and when it makes it real, like when you make real the fact that there are people out there who want to kill you or who want to burn down your schools or who want to not allow your children to go to school or who want to put you on a list so you can't earn a living. These basic, basic building blocks of our, of living, you know, literally want to interrupt the basic things that we have to do to live every day. When you finally admit that to yourself, that's like a real, forgive my language, mind fuck. Like, where do you go from that? You know? And I think one of the things that I was writing, I think one of the things that's really sort of permeated throughout my writing over the last year is that because I'm also African American, like, I've always known these things. Like, I'm not living in some fantasy world where, like, we're like, the world is, you know, my friend. Not that the world isn't my friend. There's a lot of elements to where they're my friend. But my point is I know what it means to walk down the street and to say, like, whoa, like, I wonder if that person's looking at me the wrong way is, you know, should I be worried? Like, for a long time. When I was at the New York Post, before I did politics, I edited our luxury magazine. And I used to always. I used to go. Because I'm, you know, a micro manager. We had a lot of interior, interior shots we would, like, do, you know, we would shoot beautiful homes. And I would have to inspect all of them personally because I wanted to make sure they were actually nice. And I remember, like, every. Especially after Trayvon Martin going down to Florida. And every time I would go down there, I was like, literally afraid I was going to get shot by the homeowners because we have. I have my mom's last name, so they're expecting somebody who looks very different than me. And so. And I. And I wasn't like, that was an unreasonable fear. They weren't expecting some big brown guy to show up. And they're like, you know, $15 million home on the Sunset Islands, you know, so. So that could happen, you know, for my. I'm not saying that to listen sympathy. What I'm saying is that I understand that terrible things can happen to you because of who you are and what your ethnicity is, and that there's nothing you can do about it. You cannot make these people not think this way because that's. That's what's been, you know, ingrained in them. And so when I speak about. When I write about what's happening with Jews there, there does need to be this sort of wake up call that, like, if we don't step up and speak for ourselves, it's been made clear over and over again that nobody is going to do it for us. And I feel, because I have, you know, I'm, I'm highly intersectional as they would say. I don't care what people think, I'll say what I want. And I, and I work within your post so we kind of like, you know, aligns with our editorial worldview. But you know, I'm not afraid. I'm a little bit, I have license to say things that other people don't. And I hope that I will encourage people to have. I don't want to say, you know, bravery. It sounds a little bit bombastic, but like to be brave, you know, it's like, like this is not a moment to sit by the sidelines, you know, and I'll just swap and say my ex husband was like, you know, he's not Jewish and he's much more like, you know, lower volume about things. He's a type of like, don't call attention to yourselves. And he's like, is this really good, Is this really good for the children? Do you really want, you know, do you really want some kind of attention on yourself? And I said, I want my children one day when I'm dead and buried, when they look at, back at this period to say my dad was a badass and he did not sit silent and he stood up. I want my children to be inspired by what I want to do. I don't want my children to like one day think to themselves like our father who is like black and Jewish and gay during this horrible period, sat around and said nothing. No, my dad stood up and did the right thing. That's what I want. That's what I told him. I told him to be quiet.
- [30:35]
Leslie Heaney
I love the line, Lisa, in your essay where you say loud and proud is the new never again.
- [30:41]
Lisa Barr
It is, it is. Oh, go ahead. You were saying.
- [30:43]
Leslie Heaney
No, no, I was going to just say that I. And you were also talking also about the return to Judaism, which I think is a perfect way that Nicola, for you to talk about your essay, which I love the title of by the way and can relate to as a 50 year old woman, my perimenopausal bat mitzvah. So tell me about that because that was sort of your, you know, you had your own experience returning to Judaism.
- [31:07]
Nicola Krause
Yes, I grew up in a family that was really split screen. So on one hand our house always looked like Santa threw up in it. I knew that my mother had sung in your Easter bonnet on the radio when she was 8 years old. And yet I also knew that my grandparents had fled eastern Europe in 1938 with spoons. And yet there Was no finishing that sentence. And the two narratives were never connected until I was in eighth grade and my school offered a semester long history elective. And I chose the Holocaust. And one day my mother came home from school and I said, oh, sorry. She came home from work, I came home from school, I said, are we Jewish? And she still didn't answer the question. And that would have been a great moment to say, well, you were young. And we didn't really want to explain, you know, why my grandparents died or how they died. And so at that point I realized that there was something about acknowledging the obvious truth of my mother's Jewish background that was off limits. So as we moved into high school, my sister and I started what we called farming ourselves out. So we would go to our friends houses for the high holy days. And little by little, we got our parents to start to begin to acknowledge that clearly no one just like got up and fled for no reason. But it wasn't until after my mother died that my father signed us up for the Silbersteins, which are the stumbling stones that this artist has been going around Europe. He's installed thousands of them in front of the homes of people who were taken and killed in the camps. So my father, who had never spoken about having any Jewish heritage, organized this event. We got five other families in my grandparents hometown of Carlsbad, Czechoslovakia to come together. And it was really interesting because I had carried a lot of embarrassment since eighth grade about the idea of this abrogation of an aspect of our identity. But when we sat down with these other families, only one of them had been raised as practicing Jews. So it wasn't just my grandmother who left Carlsbad. Both her parents were murdered in the camps and then never talked about it again. It was all these other families as well. So I thought, oh, that's really, that's really interesting and incredibly sad.
- [33:58]
Leslie Heaney
But of course, but other people also.
- [34:02]
Nicola Krause
Just walled it off.
- [34:04]
Leslie Heaney
So your grandmother came to the United States and did she not talk about being Jewish or she wasn't practicing, or was it just because she wanted to sort of close that chapter or what put that behind her?
- [34:16]
Nicola Krause
She crammed it up in England and she changed her name from Crouse to Cross. So my father went to Episcopalian school as Peter Cross, and he sang in the choir with the ruffle around his neck and never asked any questions.
- [34:34]
Leslie Heaney
Wow.
- [34:35]
Nicola Krause
And my mother's parents, even though three of my great grandparents on that side were also killed in Theresie Stadt, she similarly, she was born in Vienna came here in 1938, and my grandfather never spoke about being Jewish to her. So her Catholic mother kind of just took the lead. And I don't know that my parents ever. And yet the Holocaust was talked about in my household all the time. But with no personal connection to this day. If you ask my dad, he can pretty much tell you what happened day to day. World War II, minute by minute, breakdown. Obsessed.
- [35:19]
Lisa Barr
Wow.
- [35:20]
Nicola Krause
70S to acknowledge your personal history with it.
- [35:23]
Leslie Heaney
And so what was that like for you to learn that this. That your family had this whole history, that they were kind of just. That they weren't kind of. That they were hiding for whatever reason? And that was based, you think, just sort of in the pain of the experience and just.
- [35:40]
Nicola Krause
I don't think anyone intended to hold anything back from us consciously or deprive us of an opportunity to feel connected to our ancestors. I think they did just wall it off, out of pain. And then I think my father was very passive, and my mother just took the lead on what our identity would be in our community. And it wasn't unusual. Where I grew up, even my Jewish friends had Christmas trees, so I wasn't really pushed to question it. Then in my 20s, it started to feel problematic. It started to feel like there was a deep level of denial going on, and then a process of reclamation needed to happen. So when my friend texted me and said that the temple that I'd been attending through events in her family was offering adult bar mitzvah classes for the first time ever, I was like, let's do it. So we started taking Hebrew a year ago in September. And then October 7th happened. And I write about in the essay that even as the winter got darker and the nights happened earlier and it got harder and harder to focus on the swimming letters in front of my eyes, I felt a greater sense of responsiveness. You know, it is a privilege to be able to study this language. It is a privilege to be able to sit down with this rabbi and to receive these teachings. And it was a privilege to be in a community, right? The privilege that we knew we could gather safely and we could share this knowledge. So I just. I plowed ahead, and now I'm in year two, and the ceremony will be for 12 of us on June 1st.
- [37:26]
Leslie Heaney
That's what we're looking forward to it. Oh, that is. That's awesome. That's terrific. So you've got another. I don't know how many months to grow. That is so great. I reached out to Zibby. I was in New York about A month ago at a we both were at a friend's father's memorial service. And I've been seeing the different things that she's been posting and her posts, particularly about the protests that were happening on Park Avenue when Netanyahu was in town, sort of became very personal to me to think that I have friends that are living in New York that don't feel safe living in New York and are concerned about the safety of their children and their families. And then I, we went up to this memorial service. I saw Zibi across the room and I thought, gosh, I've been meaning to reach out to her about that post. And then I left and I was walking on Park Avenue and I saw the graffiti that was on 63rd and park, the antisemitic graffiti. And I thought, you know, and you all, there's different essays that talk about this in the book, but just how your non Jewish friends and neighbors and prior to that, besides liking posts of my Jewish friends on their Instagram or sending them notes checking in or I have a friend who grew up in Tel Aviv and he's back there now and has family there. So I've reached out to him during the past year, but I really haven't done much beyond that. And so I contacted Zibby and said I really, you know, I'm so upset by what's happening and I don't, I don't want my silence to be construed by my Jewish friends is if I'm not supportive or aware of and actually I couldn't fully be aware of what they're going through. I think only people who are, who are Jewish or Jews really know what that feels like. But to let my friends know and my neighbors know how much I care about what's happening and empathize with them. And I, I guess I just, you know, one of the chapters was, I think the title is We Used to Be Friends. Have any of you had that experience of just feeling like your non Jewish friends are sort of silent on the issue or not talking about it? And I just can't imagine what that must feel like. Alyssa, I see you're shaking your head too. And this is just for listeners. We're on a kind of a, it's like a Brady Bunch grid and so we're not so we don't have sound issues. I'm calling on people like I'm a teacher in class. But Lissa, I think you were nodding first and then I'm going to ask David to speak to that.
- [39:52]
Alyssa Rosenheck
I think I'm not going to speak collectively, but I think that we've all experienced this for sure, and I'm still experiencing this. And I feel like we're all trying to reconcile, or at least I am, who we were before October 7th and who we are now. And I feel like I'm a little bit of a stranger in spaces that I used to really exist and thrive in. And I went to Israel post war twice, and to really bear witness and to share and amplify these stories. And I had dinner with somebody last night who I ran into at a, at a brunch a few weeks ago. And she had been going around town telling everybody that I've been radioactive. And I told her that her silence was radioactive. And I feel like there is only peace can only be had through truth and education. And we need to really connect and have the responsibility to listen to one another and ask questions and be curious, because that silence is what's radioactive. And so I had dinner with this person last night and I commended her for sharing a table and asking those questions and creating a vulnerable space to, to get through that. And, and I, and I think that's part of our, our Jewish identity is to sit down with people and educate them, regardless of, you know, their beliefs and to really, to really hopefully build bridges moving forward, because I've lost a lot of friends and relationships and through ignorance.
- [41:29]
Leslie Heaney
So you saw this woman at a brunch, and then this dinner was kind of her effort or your effort to have that conversation? Yeah, I think somebody, Judy, I don't know if it was you. The essays are conflating in my mind, but someone was heckling someone in one of the essays who was speaking at a book event. And then, you know, the speaker, and maybe, I don't know if it was one of you or someone else who was a contributor, said, you know, let's have a cup of coffee sometime. It was you, Lisa. Okay, yeah, tell us about that. Because that, that I just thought that was so powerful that you had that reaction to her sort of reaching out to her ignorance and hate, in a way, in a warm and open response.
- [42:14]
Lisa Barr
So just two examples with polar opposite situations. So that when I was at a book club and these were very, for lack of a better word, very well educated women. They were judges, CEOs of corporations, partners, and they were reading my latest book. And so I was the only Jewish person there, and I'm the speaker. And in the middle of it, a woman stopped and she started baiting me and going, and really, heckling me. And this is someone who is a partner in a major firm that everyone has heard of. And so all the women around were trying to shush her, shush her. And I said, no, let her talk, let's do this. I said, we should have coffee. And instead I responded to all of her remarks. And the other woman you could see were, how are you doing this to our guest speaker? But I thought it was a teachable moment, as you said, and it was hardcore. But I knew my facts and we was very aware of these not well researched claims she was making. And I had very strong counter responses, but I wasn't belittling her. I was treating her, you know, mano a mano, straight ahead. And afterward, the next day, the woman who put it together was apologizing. I said, no, not at all. This was important. So actually that woman who was heckling me reached out and said, I'm so sorry. I realized what I did to you last night and I have so much to learn and I'm going to educate myself from here on. And so we had a really nice kind of closure on this. Another positive note, but different. When I was on launching my book tour, I was in the south, and this is really close to everything happening around October 7th. And I was really emotional and I was giving a speech in South Carolina and a woman comes up to me afterwards and she said, I know I shouldn't be saying this and I shouldn't say this out loud, but I got to say it. She said, the Jews, they just never give up. And I love that. I love it. And she said, and your character doesn't give up and don't you give up. And that was exactly what I needed. I needed someone who wasn't Jewish. I needed an upstander. I needed someone to say exactly those words. And for me, that was the fuel I needed to continue on with my tour. And sometimes as you did with Zibby and said, what can I do? Let me, you know, any sort of thing. Or as you mentioned, your friend came to dinner. Those moments, you know, while they seem small, are so big. David, what you were saying, I wanted to add to it this whole be brave. It's so simple. But it is so important right now for, you know, however you come at Judaism to be brave and, you know, in small ways and big ways to make a stand, use your voice, or if you can't, support someone else who is using their voice. And so I think this is how we stand strong and combat what's going on right now.
- [46:00]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, And I think, you know, I was gonna, I have this sort of question I just, I wanted to ask you all. But I think, Lisa, you just, you spoke to it. But I'm wondering, Judy, if you would too, just what do you want to see your non Jewish friends say to you or do? How can your neighbors and your friends help?
- [46:21]
Judy Batalion
It's a great question. And I mean I don't have that many friends, so I've never, I really don't. But I, you know, as you're, you know, as you were talking, Lisa, I was thinking about After October 7th, in the weeks that followed, two people sent me text messages and these were people who were parents of, I have three kids of three younger kids and they're parents from the classes. Like I barely knew them. And two of them reached out to me, a text saying, this must be a very difficult time. And I'm thinking of you and your family. I don't even know how they knew I was Jewish. I mean, you know, they're not people I knew. Well, I'm like crying now as I'm telling you this because two moms saw something and reached out to me. And now over a year later, I remember that and I remember those texts and those things are very, they're tiny. These are tiny gestures that are so moving. Whereas people who I, you know, associated with every day, either on a social level or professional level, said nothing, never addressed the true anxiety that I've been feeling. I mean, like I, I mean I've always been anxious. So this is, but I, I mean like this is, I've been feeling a visceral anxiety over the past. Like I lost weight, like that doesn't happen. You know, I really, I, I, I, I. But they've said, they've said nothing. And I also, you know, remember that.
- [47:54]
Leslie Heaney
But how does that feel? So Nicole, a question for you. I mean, when you're sort of seeing close friends kind of posting or kind of pro Hamas, sort of being misinformed about Hamas or sort of seeing the conflict in a anti Jewish way. How does that.
- [48:15]
Nicola Krause
Well, thankfully I was very lucky. My social media feed is quite lovely. It's a lot of raccoons and vests and I would not see who were conflating issues. And I think one of the things that I deeply appreciate about the temple that I've been going to is their ability to hold dualities. So for example, on Rosh Hashanah, the rabbi was talking about fighting for Israel and allegiance with Israel, the right of Israel to exist and that we all have a responsibility to keep Israel safe and holding the current administration as accountable as we held, not this current administration.
- [48:57]
Alyssa Rosenheck
Of our government, let's say the last.
- [48:59]
Nicola Krause
Administration, or the Bush administration for Afghanistan, or, you know, that you can separate out the politics of a country from the history of the country, like what America means to us, and that sometimes you've got a mayor you're not totally in love with. So I was lucky to have to be surrounded by people, by a close Jewish community of friends who were of course feeling just shock and horror and fear for the hostages and also very concerned for everyone's lives, every civilians lives.
- [49:35]
Leslie Heaney
So again.
- [49:37]
Nicola Krause
And raccoons invest. So I do. Very loving and supportive.
- [49:43]
Leslie Heaney
I think, you know, the idea and Alyssa, you alluded to some of the statistics about how few Americans know really about the history of the Holocaust, or I think you said 1 in 5 or 1 in 4 think that it was made up or that it's a myth. All of you have family members or most all of you who had a connection to that, to the Holocaust. But, you know, it started with sort of these subtle antisemitic conversations, policies, you know, and then you just. It kind of builds, right? And so if we're not saying something and we're not talking about it and we're not teaching our children the history of it, it's very dangerous. It's very dangerous. And I think that people need to know that and need to have those conversations. You know, I wanted just to close with saying, you know, the question about what more do you think our community leaders and our government should be doing? Alyssa, do you want to speak to that?
- [50:39]
Alyssa Rosenheck
I encourage civic advocacy and I have a bottom up approach to this in terms of, you know, when we think of changing the world or creating impact, sometimes that feels big and we emotionally shut down. But I think that we all have a responsibility to be even more dialed into our local communities. Recently there was a ceasefire resolution that passed my desk. And it was really important for me to mobilize the community and attack it at a team level because there were all of these false equivalencies. And I'm out of Nashville, Tennessee. We don't need to be focusing on a conflict 8,000 miles away. We need to be focusing on local issues. And this was a templated form from the US cpr. It's the US Campaign for Palestinian Rights. And I think people need to really understand that while there's a physical war happening there, there's an ideological war happening here, and it's targeting our local communities through Our local municipalities. And this, the ceasefire resolution came from a template from the US cpr, which is the largest BDS boycott divestment sanction arm in the United States, was formed after the second intifada in 2005 and its sole purpose is to annihilate the state of Israel. And so why is a templated form coming through? My Nashville City Council and one of the co sponsors of the forum has direct ties to like Rashida Tlaib, who is not a friend of Israel or the Jewish community. And so my greatest advice for those who are listening, please engage in your local civic community. Start lobbying for anti BDS bills for your state specifically. Also start incorporating and encouraging for your local Metro City Council members, your state, your governor, to codify the IRA definition for your state. Those are all very action item steps. And then two, these ideologies that are taking root within your schools, start having conversations with your administration to push back.
- [52:42]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, the school piece is a tricky one and it's one that I think we need to be giving parents a real roadmap to be having those conversations. Lisa, you were going to say something.
- [52:51]
Lisa Barr
And David, I just want to piggyback off what you just said. I think you're asking what not the non Jewish community can do. And you know, we're all adults here, but I really think these kids who are in, especially in college, are on the front lines of hate. And the fact that this has been allowed to persist, I mean, we've all talked about if you substitute any other community but Jews, things would have been done a lot quicker. And we just saw Harvard complaining about losing $150 million in donations this year. That's where we can have an impact that speaks. So you know what? Call your schools, call the administrators and say, we don't like what we're seeing going on on campuses to the Jewish community and we're really reconsidering our donations or reconsidering how this is is impacting. Like those kinds of calls or standing up in schools can make a really big impact. We, everyone here can use our platforms and perhaps not be afraid to say things, but these kids are really, really hurting. And that is one way we could really help. In my opinion.
- [54:16]
Leslie Heaney
Part of the Artists Against Antisemitism, you are working with college groups too, with Jewish groups and college campuses.
- [54:23]
Lisa Barr
Yeah, that's creating understanding. But I think where it really hurts these universities is the money. And if you start saying, you know, this is allowed to persist carte blanche on your college campuses, you know, we're going to start pulling our, you know, the funds or donations. We're going to start really looking at who are these students that are demonstrating, wearing masks, maybe where, you know, in the beginning, I remember there was a group of law firms that said, we're not going to hire you. Really make it a little bit more difficult to harass and violate the rights of Jewish students.
- [55:00]
Alyssa Rosenheck
There needs to be consequences.
- [55:02]
Lisa Barr
There has to be consequences.
- [55:03]
Alyssa Rosenheck
There needs to be a lot of funding for our international foreign aid. It needs to go right.
- [55:10]
Lisa Barr
For any other community, there would have been a stepping in of some sort. And this is just. And I'm all for First Amendment rights, but this has crossed a line and people need to step in. And whether they're parents or big donors, that needs to happen. And that's how it will change. And what I think.
- [55:28]
Leslie Heaney
And David, I think you talked about that in your essay, that you can be proactive and engage. Withholding your resources, right? Not. Yeah.
- [55:38]
David Kaufman
I gave an example of a Jewish Canadian philanthropist who gave to a university in Israel as opposed to giving to the university in North America. And that's obviously, Israeli institutions need our money more than ever. And one thing I wanted to say just about what can be done about, you know, what needs to be done to, from the community, from, you know, folks who are not Jewish. I think it's. It's almost sort of a basic request. It's like the most basic request is to actually take this seriously. I think that folks, there's this. There's this resistance or reticence or hesitance to really understand that this in many ways is an existential threat, that these protests and these acts of civil disobedience or acts of resistance, as they call it, on behalf of Palestine or Gaza or against Israel are really in many ways always rooted in violence. This is a movement that's extremely violent and, you know, has demonstrated time and time again that they don't have any qualms when it comes to acting out physically intimidating, imperiling, blocking, hitting, beatings like this, this is really is an issue that's about physical safety in a way more than anything. And that at also at the extreme, when it comes to Hamas, when it comes to, you know, Islamic organizations and jihadi organizations that, you know, these folks have made it very clear that they want to kill us. They're not messing around here. And that this really is what it mean. This is sort of. It's not necessarily the best worldview in which to live. But this is where I begin. Everything is that these people who Are who are, you know, protesting civil disobedience ing against us. They are supporting a movement that wants to kill us. And that this is a really, really sort of difficult thing to grasp and understand, but it is the truth. They do want us dead. They've said so. They've demonstrated it. And if you see the language and the vitriol that is expressed by their surrogates and supporters here in the US and across the west, you know, I'm not so sure that they don't want to kill us either. And, you know, that's where I kind of begin and end everything, is that these people want us dead. And, you know, we must take this very seriously. And people shouldn't be surprised if I take that personally. When people want to kill me and kill my children and kill my mother and kill people who I love, I will take it personally. It's personal. And I will do whatever it takes to make sure that doesn't happen.
- [58:16]
Lisa Barr
And, David, I just want to say something to that. I covered terrorism extensively. I was reporter and Jerusalem for seven years. And all I can say is exactly what you're saying. Terrorism knows no boundaries. So this is what it all starts and looks like. It's just aimed at the Jews. That's the first step. And I think that the realization and the understanding that it starts with us and it goes wide, and that's a very clear message that I think people miss in translation.
- [58:53]
David Kaufman
I think also again, people are very much like, why are these Jews so, like, so freaked out? And why are they, you know, hogging so much attention? But, you know, you would be too, if. If the threat against you was a mortal threat. If somebody's coming and wants to kill your children, I mean, I say this as a dad, then there's nothing I wouldn't do to defend the lives of my life, of my child. And that would include, you know, doing horrible things to that person as well. You know, that's what it means to be a parent. You know, you'll do anything what it takes. So, and, and for me, it's like, you know, especially when you saw October 7th, you saw the pictures of. Of the children who were kidnapped, and you're thinking to yourself, not only could this be my child, this would be my child. If they had their way, this would be. If these people had their way, this would be that this would be my child. And all I can think about, all I can think about in this context, I mean, I go into these tangents, but, like, what would happen if they grabbed my children? And then my children said, they have two dads. It's like, oh, my God, they'd be doubly screwed, you know, so. So, you know, and I think to myself, and it could have happened. Like, I could have brought my kids to Israel for last year for the hagim, and we could have been invited to a kibbutz in the south because it would have been fun and there would have been, like, animals, and they would have had a fun time at the farm and they could have milked cows. Like, all of this could have happened. It's not like a fantasy. I'm not making this up. This literally could have been me, so. And my poor little boys could have been surrounded by Hamas terrorists saying, I have a daddy and a poppy. And that's what I think about. But it's true. And so that's why I take this so personally.
- [60:24]
Leslie Heaney
Well, one of the contributors talked about how they went into a gun store to buy a gun, and his wife was looking at him like, we're not in favor of guns. Why are we going to. And he said, they go into the gun store and the man that was helping them, they said, what kind of, you know, you're looking for a shotgun for hunting? And he just said, I'm Jewish and I'm looking for a gun. And the person who has worked at the store was like, you need a. I mean, it was some like, 9 millimeter. I mean, but the fear for him, you know, to your comment, David, is real. And I don't know if many of your non Jewish friends and neighbors understand that. When I asked the question about what we can do to help, I saw a post, someone on Zibby's Instagram who said that one of the ways they see themselves contributing is by buying the book on being Jewish now. So for everyone who's listening, please go out and buy the book. And even if you're, you know, you have a different perspective or you just want to learn more, I think it's really important to understand how our fellow Americans and our Jewish friends and neighbors are feeling in this moment. So I hope you'll. You'll read it. It's a really moving read and I really appreciate it. It's really nice to see you all and thanks so much for taking the time. Well, that brings us to the end of this episode of the interview. A huge thank you again to Lisa Barr, Judy Batalion, David Kaufman, Alyssa Rosen Heck, and Nicola Krause for joining, and thank you all so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. A new episode is released every Wednesday and until then, this is Leslie and thank you for joining the interview.