Reimagining Grief: Turning Unimaginable Loss Into a Movement with Kate Doerge

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Reimagining Grief: Turning Unimaginable Loss Into a Movement with Kate Doerge"

Podcast: Duologue with Leslie Heaney
Host: Leslie Heaney
Guest: Kate Doerge, Founder of Penny's Flight Foundation, Certified Grief Coach, Author of Reimagining Grief
Date: June 10, 2026

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Overview

This compelling episode centers on the transformative power of grief, as told through the experiences of Kate Doerge. Kate, a grief counselor, nonprofit founder, and soon-to-be author, discusses how she has navigated profound personal losses—including the deaths of her parents and her teenage daughter, Penny—and turned those experiences into a movement for healing, hope, and purpose. Together with host Leslie Heaney, herself recently bereaved, they explore actionable approaches, the science behind grief, and how loss, reimagined, can become a source of strength and community.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Kate's Story: Confronting Immense Loss

• Kate recounts losing her father, mother (in a car crash), and her daughter Penny (to complications from neurofibromatosis). She describes each loss and the unique challenges and decisions faced.
• "You are going to be challenged in life, and it's up to you how you play those cards you're dealt." – advice from Kate’s late father, which became foundational in her grief journey (05:40).

2. Agency and Choice in Grief

• Deliberate Agency: Rather than being defined by loss, Kate emphasizes making active choices in response to adversity.
• "We always had a choice—were we going to let this define us, or were we going to bedazzle the cast?" (06:19)
• Rejecting Conventional Expectations: Kate challenges the linear "five stages of grief" model, stressing that grief is variable and personal (11:08).

3. Redefining Rituals & Honoring Loved Ones

• Personalized Goodbyes: The importance of ceremonies and tributes that truly reflect the individual's life and spirit (09:40).
• Kate describes rejecting the traditional funeral in favor of vibrant celebrations for her mother and daughter.
• "Imagine instead... bringing everyone together, telling all of Penny's girlfriends, you gotta wear color. Let's get all the girls to do a TikTok dance." (21:59)

4. The Core Principles from Reimagining Grief

• There’s No One Right Way: Grief is deeply individual; people should honor their loss in authentic ways (16:18).
• Redefine Goodbye: Make tributes and memorials personal to the person lost.
• Action is Healing: Taking action—however small—fosters healing and connection.
• Be Open to Transformation: Allow grief to change and shape you.
• Joy Is Not Betrayal: Experiencing joy after loss honors the memory of the lost loved one, rather than betraying them (17:15).
• Turning Pain Into Purpose: Finding meaning, even in heartbreak, creates legacy and community impact (17:51).

5. Action Steps for Navigating Grief

The "New Five Actions" (27:58, 29:00)

1. Movement: Physical movement helps process emotions and combat stagnation.
   • "Physical strength leads to mental strength and moving your energy through your body." (29:00)
2. Connection: Seek support from "sunshine people" who uplift you; avoid "shower people" who drain energy (30:35).
3. Celebration: Focus on remembering the joyful moments and honoring the life lived.
4. Looking for Signs: Many find connection in the signs and symbols that remind them of their loved ones (19:34, 21:59).
5. Turning Pain into Purpose: Channel grief into helping others, advocacy, or small acts of kindness (40:09).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On her mother's funeral:
  "My mother never wore black... she didn't like funerals. She liked the party afterwards. So for us, it was okay. We need to celebrate her in the best way possible." (09:40)
• On receiving signs:
  "After Penny had passed, ... Walking on Sunshine was playing [in the car]. ... when I looked at the timestamp of [a friend's photo], it was the exact moment Penny had passed... The house almost seemed to be glowing." (19:34–21:59)
• On what helps heal:
  "In order to mend your broken heart, you have to heal someone else's broken heart." (17:51)
• On joy after loss:
  "Joy after loss isn't a betrayal. It's actually a way to honor them." (17:15)
• On finding purpose:
  "Helping others to help yourself and that healing your, healing someone else's heart in order to heal yours." (40:33)
• On including others in grief:
  "It was so important for me to include everyone and make people feel like they were part of this with us, which is also not the norm." (25:29)
• On changing the narrative:
  "Our culture is not comfortable with grief. My hope is to change the narrative... imagine instead of saying to someone, 'I'm so sorry,' you say, 'Randall was the biggest light...'" (44:40)
• On legacy:
  "It's not your lifespan that matters, it's your wingspan and the impact you leave behind." (33:36)

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Science & Research Behind Grief (31:37)

• Brain and Grief:
  Kate references research showing grief can "lock" the brain into neutral, impeding forward movement. Small actions can shift the internal "gear" into drive, reinforcing resilience over time (31:37).
• Grief and Body:
  Movement and physical action help "process" grief and trauma, releasing stored tension and emotion.

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Penny's Flight Foundation & Activism

• Foundation Growth:
  From its origins after Penny’s passing, it has grown to nationwide events, partnerships (Veronica Beard, scientific research initiatives), and raised over $6 million (55:30).
• Fam Jam Event:
  Annual celebration for Penny’s birthday to raise awareness, support, and funds; described as "a love cocoon" (54:07).
• Advocacy:
  Kate emphasizes breaking down silos in research and fostering collaboration across organizations (55:14).
• Encouraging Others to Act:
  "Lean in with your heart. What are you passionate about? Where do you want to get involved? ... It doesn't have to be in big ways." (40:33)

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Practical Tips for Those Experiencing Grief

• Trust your intuition and "play the cards you're dealt"—choose to move forward (05:40, 11:08).
• Find small ways to help others; volunteering or simple kindness can be profoundly healing (17:51, 40:09).
• Create or participate in rituals that feel meaningful, not just traditional (21:59).
• Connect with others and let people support you—grief can foster community (30:35, 57:03).
• Look for positive signs and moments of light—the presence of loved ones persists in many forms (19:32, 36:13).

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Segment Timestamps

• Kate's Story & Foundational Lessons: 04:40–14:43
• Rejecting the Five Stages/Choosing Agency: 11:08–14:43
• Redefining Rituals, Personalizing Goodbye: 09:40, 16:19–23:11
• The Five Action Steps for Healing: 27:58–32:46
• Signs and Spiritual Connection: 19:34–22:41; 36:13–38:11
• Turning Pain to Purpose & Advocacy: 40:09–43:00; 55:29–58:14
• Penny's Flight Foundation Initiatives: 54:04–56:37

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Episode Tone

• Warm, candid, and deeply empathetic. Both Leslie and Kate maintain a conversational, sometimes humorous, approach even as they discuss heavy topics, making the conversation accessible and relatable.
• Kate’s optimism and practical wisdom shine, encouraging listeners to take action, celebrate life, and connect through their losses.

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Summary for Listeners

This episode is a comforting and practical guide for anyone experiencing grief—or supporting someone who is. Kate Doerge’s personal journey shows loss can be a catalyst for meaning, connection, and positive change. Through tangible action steps, powerful storytelling, and open-hearted reflection, Leslie and Kate model how agency, collective support, and honoring our loved ones can turn even unimaginable pain into the greatest gift of one’s life.

Book mentioned:

• Reimagining Grief by Kate Doerge (Jun 16, 2026 release)

Organizations/Events:

• Penny’s Flight Foundation
• Fam Jam – Penny’s birthday fundraising event
• Veronica Beard partnership for fundraising

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“I know Penny lived her life's purpose. ... And I am living mine because of the lessons she taught me. That's the same thing with my mom. It's a gift.” – Kate Doerge (33:36)

Transcript

[Leslie Heaney]

Hey, everybody, it's Leslie, and you're listening to Do a Law with Leslie Heaney. So my next guest is a personal friend of mine and a real inspiration to me, Kate Durgie. Kate is the founder of Penny's Flight Foundation, a certified grief coach, and the author of Reimagining Grief, which is a book that shows us how to find healing, strength, and joy after great loss. It is Kate's first book, and it comes out next week on June 16th. In this conversation, Kate and I talk about grief. She can speak about it firsthand. She lost her father and then her mother in a sudden car crash five days before Christmas. And then she experienced the greatest loss, really any person could, which is losing her daughter Penny, at 16, to geoblastoma caused by neurofibrotosis, which is a GI condition that she had lived with her whole life. And all of these losses she experienced within the span of just a few years. Yet through every of these tragedies, Kate really made the intentional choice to search for the positive, to reach for the light. She chose, as she puts it, to put faith over fear. Thankfully for all of us, Kate has shared her story and her extraordinary approach of turning pain into purpose in her book. In this episode, we talk about what grief can look like when you refuse to let it define you. And we talk through kind of the actionable steps that she outlines in her book to help us navigate grief. And we talk about some of the science behind. Behind that of how we can help ourselves heal. Kate and her book, I was fortunate enough to get an advance copy, were both so incredibly comforting to me. Having lost my best friend just six months ago, this is really a conversation about how we can learn from our losses and how grief, reimagined, can become the greatest gift of your life. So with that, here's Kate Durkee.

Kate, I'm so happy to see you. Kate just got off a plane, came straight, straight to the studio. I was running a little bit late because I had a printer snafu, but we ended up getting here exactly at the same time. And I'm so happy to see you.

[Kate Durgie]

I am so happy to be here. My first time in Nashville.

[Leslie Heaney]

I know.

She just.

She's hot off the plane.

[Kate Durgie]

Hot off the plane.

[Leslie Heaney]

This is her first stop. I'm going to take her on a little tour, depending how much time she has. And then we have a great event tonight at Veronica Beard Whirlwind Tour. Yes, A tour for you. Right. Going around with all these different events in Veronica Beard stores in support of penny's flight.

[Kate Durgie]

Amazing 58 stores they now have. This is the fourth year that Veronica Beard gives back to Penny's Flight. They were the first brand that came right out of the gate when Penny passed and said, what can we do? You know, we want to support, we want to give back. And I think at the time they probably had like 18 stores or. And now with over 58 stores and over 160 co hosts around the country, incredible Canada, London, coming together to do these in store events. So it's just so beautiful and it's such an amazing impact for us.

[Leslie Heaney]

Well, for the, for actually for the foundation itself. Right. In terms of that impact. But then also just seeing all these people come together and support of Penny and the cause. And I know you're here in Nashville today and then tomorrow you're in Florida. I don't, I mean, your frequent flyer miles, we can talk about that offline. Maybe you can transfer some to me. But anyway, I'm just so happy to see you. And I, you know, we're. You and I have, we've talked in the podcast before about Penny's Flight foundation and I'm sure we'll touch upon that today too. But you know, you have taken your experience with grief and have written this incredible book which, you know, I'm not going to spend too much time talking about myself, but this is your experience has been invaluable to me this past year, having experienced a great loss. But this is Kate's book, Reimagining Grief. And it's just so, I mean, Kate, it's such, so impactful. I can't be. I've told you this personally. Just some of the messages in the book for me, having recently gone through that experience, going through traumatic grief. But what just what a tool pax for so many people who are going through grief. And we all will. If we haven't yet, we all will. It's the one thing that's certain right. In this life. But you, for people who are listening and don't know your story, you have experienced great loss in your life. Do you want to tell us a little bit about it?

[Kate Durgie]

And you're right, we're all going to go through it. So whether you've been through it or you're going to go through it, the reality is this is the book that I wanted when I lost my father to heart failure, my mother in a car crash just five days before Christmas, and then of course, losing our beautiful penny at 16 years old. And there is no handbook out there. As we know. And so when you experience that first loss, as I did with my dad, it's funny, because my dad, you and I have talked about this. My dad's advice the night before Chad and I got married, where he pulled us aside and said to us, listen, you've lived a very charmed life. And we had, at that time, we had not experienced any sort of adversity or real challeng in our lives. And he said, but I want you to know something. You are going to be challenged in life, and it's up to you how you play those cards you're dealt. And we definitely looked at each other, and we're like, you're sort of crushing our vibe right now. But his words, because this was your

[Leslie Heaney]

wedding night, he took it.

[Kate Durgie]

This is our wedding night. He was like, just look around. You've beautiful friends, you've wonderful family, but you're going to be challenged. And I want you to think about how you're going to play the cards you're dealt in life. And it was the greatest advice I've ever received. Because the moment, certainly that Penny rolled off our bed at four months old and fractured her tibia bone, and we received the diagnosis of she had neurofibromatosis. And then the next diagnosis that, you know, she was going to have her first leg surgery to fuse her bone that was fractured. And then seven surgeries later, multiple braces, you know, cast that she wore. We always had a choice, like, were we going to let this define us, or were we going to bedazzle the cast and accessorize the br to match her outfits and make sure she had beautiful bows in her hair? Like, those were all the choices we made not to be defined by what was happening to Penny and us. And so then when my father was the first to pass, he had always said to us growing up, you know, when my time comes, it comes. And again, I sort of was like, dad, you're so morbid. But I think the realization for my dad was that he had lived his life and he was proud of the way he lived his life. So when his time came, it came, and we recognized that. And because he had been such a force in all of our lives and such a big presence, it was like, all right, well, we have to celebrate this force of life. Like, we can't go dark. So that was the dress rehearsal for me, at least, again, not having a handbook. It was like, all right, I'm going to lean in heart first, and we're going to celebrate my dad and Then, when my mom died in a car crash five days before Christmas, I had talked to her in the morning on the way to the train, and on the way home from work, I got the phone call saying she had been in this accident. It was a freak accident. She was driving out of her driveway in Boca Green.

[Leslie Heaney]

You describe this in detail in the book. And I obviously knew when it happened, and I knew what had happened. But just your description. I put myself in your shoes in that moment. You making the phone call to the emergency room.

[Kate Durgie]

Right.

[Leslie Heaney]

Her friend said, you need to call. She was airlifted.

[Kate Durgie]

And I know I have chills thinking

[Leslie Heaney]

about it being stupid over the phone. And I just felt like I was there in that moment. And.

[Kate Durgie]

Because can you imagine?

[Leslie Heaney]

No.

[Kate Durgie]

And that's. People always say that to me. They're like, I can't imagine that phone call. And I guess my answer with everything is, well, imagine if you did get it. Imagine instead of, you know, getting this news that, I'm so sorry, but your mom didn't make it. And I just froze. And it was something that came over me that I was sitting in the driveway of my house at the time, and I knew I was about to walk in to my three children who were sitting there with Christmas music playing and our Christmas tree and all the decorations. And my mother had been the biggest, brightest light in all of our lives. Never been sick a day in her life. And so I had a choice. How was I going to play those cards? And it really took a lot, but I had to pull myself together and walk inside. And I said to the kids, this has happened. Tassie's been in an accident, and she didn't make it. And I took a deep breath and I said, but we're going to celebrate her, and we're going to honor her. And she would want us to keep moving forward, and she would want us to celebrate Christmas just like she loved to do. So we kept moving forward, and then it was celebrating her big, beautiful life in the most incredible way. And I love love. In the book, I talk about the choice we made to bring everyone together.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[Kate Durgie]

Because imagine, you know, this is Cassie Kernan, the belly dancer, the jazzercise instructor, the biggest light of everyone's lives. And. And everyone thought she was going to live till she was a hundred.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[Kate Durgie]

And so when that happened, I not only had my family and my brothers and my cousins and everyone looking to us, but also all of her friends.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right.

[Kate Durgie]

And it was in that moment that we had a choice. And I think, you know, the Recognition that my mother never wore black, she never was in a dark church, and she didn't like funerals. She liked the party afterwards. So for us, it was okay. We need to celebrate her in the best way possible.

[Leslie Heaney]

When you talk about that moment.

[Kate Durgie]

Right.

[Leslie Heaney]

Being with your brother.

[Kate Durgie]

Yeah. And in the church, you know, and

[Leslie Heaney]

having the priest kind of walk through options with you, and you sort of taking a step back, saying, maybe we don't have to do it this way. Have you ever thought, you know, when you're describing Penny's condition and how you decided at that moment how to play those cards right, to be positive, to bedazzle the cast, in some ways, that choice of you taking agency over that and making that into something that was positive in some ways. To me, as we're having this conversation, it kind of occurred to me that you sort of were setting the table for how to find the positive and find the joy and find the celebration. And that theme of how you're playing your cards has then rolled into how you've managed your loss of your dad, your loss of your mother, and then the greatest loss for any parent you've experienced. And that's how you decided to play it. Play those cards in that circumstance, too.

[Kate Durgie]

Absolutely. And I love the word agency, because I think so many times people feel like in grief, the expectation or the understanding is that we're supposed to go through this five stages of grief and that they just happen, that we're gonna sit in it and we're gonna be, you know, angry, in denial, depressed, bargaining. Like, bargaining for what? To bring someone back. And then finally, the fifth stage is acceptance. And for me, I didn't want to feel that way. I wanted, again, to play the cards and have agency over how we move through these different circumstances. So from the very beginning with Penny, you know, we didn't let the brace she wore every day of her life on her leg define her.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right?

[Kate Durgie]

And no one even questioned it, because we were all about moving forward. Like.

[Leslie Heaney]

Well, no one actually knew that.

[Kate Durgie]

No one knew that she.

[Leslie Heaney]

I mean, I knew that she had. I thought she might have a bone condition or. You know, some kids are both. You know, she just had a brace, and it never, you know, held her back in any way. I had no idea that it was a symptom of a larger condition. And that's because of you and your family and how you decided to move forward with that.

[Kate Durgie]

And that was really important to us because I think we, from day one, felt like we don't want anyone to feel sorry for Penny. And if we led with, oh, she's got this condition, and oh, we have to be careful, like, that wasn't part of Penny's narrative. And from the minute, you know, we learned about the diagnosis, it was like, well, this isn't going to define us. We're going to move forward. And it wasn't denial. That's important to know. Like, it wasn't. We were in denial. It was a choice we made. And so even when it came to Penny's seven, you know, tumor, brain tumors that kept reoccurring and we kept removing, it was important for us that, you know, they would come back. And then we would say to the surgeon, all right, well, can we it out? And he'd be like, yep. And we're like, well, she's got her 16th birthday in two weeks and we got a big party and then we're going river rafting on the Salmon river, and she wants to live life and live it in the biggest way possible. And so the surgeon would always look at us and he'd be like, what does she have coming up? We'd be like, well, we got this. I have more going. But it was a choice we made to not let those moments define us and her and just to keep moving forward. And so I think that was also a choice. Even, you know, the last tumor that spread inevitably, because that's, you know, it was a glioblastoma that took Penny's life. And for those who don't know about neurofibromatosis, NF is the growth of tumors anywhere along the nerve pathways. NF affects 1 out of 2000 individuals. 150,000 people in the United States have it in comparison to ALS. 30,000 people have ALS. 150 have NF. But many people don't even know what neurofibromatosis is. So because no one condition looks the same.

[Leslie Heaney]

So that's an important point.

[Kate Durgie]

Very.

[Leslie Heaney]

It doesn't always present itself in the same way in every person.

[Kate Durgie]

Exactly. So under the umbrella of nf, you can have a multitude of symptoms or very few. And in Penny's case, she had cafe au lait spots, which are like, freckling. She had the bone up abnormality, the bowing of her tibia bone. And then it wasn't until she was 14 that she developed the first brain tumor, which was benign until it was not.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right.

[Kate Durgie]

And so that's why the seven brain surgeries, you know, we got the diagnosis that it was a glioblastoma, but we just kept moving, moving forward. And Living life. And so when that last tumor was inoperable and it ended up spreading, we made a choice, and we filled our house with love and light and brought Penny home and created the love cocoon.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yep.

[Kate Durgie]

To send her out on a rocket ship of love.

[Leslie Heaney]

Which she did. And which you did.

[Kate Durgie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leslie Heaney]

And so you're, you know, coming out of that experience, and then, you know, you finding purpose out of pain. Right. And starting Penny's flight foundation and having that outlet to do that. But one of the other things that you did was take this step. Right. To write this book, which, you know, again, personally has been a great source of comfort for me, but it will be, obviously, to so many people who are going through this. But let's talk about how you. You know, the title of your book is Reimagining Grief, Right. And you want to sort of send the message out that there is no one way. Right. And then you. And you in the book, share your own experience about how you approached your grief and what has worked for you. And in going through that process, you're now a certified grief counselor. You've done a lot of these workshops with people in person, kind of walking them through your approach. But you. You have sort of steps or some pointers here of the grieving process, and I'm going to read them to you, and then we can. We can break them down. One is, there's not one right way to grieve. Right.

[Kate Durgie]

Very important.

[Leslie Heaney]

We can each redefine goodbye in a way that honors our loved one and feels right for them and you and your family. And you had that own experience, right, with your mother. I took that experience myself and navigating the loss of my best friend and making her reception, trying to make it a celebration. Sunshine, one of her friends, had this great idea of getting an acoustic Grateful Dead band, one of her favorite bands. And, yeah, you know, we had to get permission at the place we were having. It was that okay. And they said it was okay anyway. So you can. You can do. You can. You can make it be a real reflection of them and the wonderful life that they led. Taking action. We'll talk through those. Because that piece has been so important to your recovery is probably not the right word, but your healing. Healing, yes. That is the word. You've got to, by the way, hashtag thisis52. I've been lately. That's been my new thing where I'm like, the word. The word.

[Kate Durgie]

Where is the word?

[Leslie Heaney]

And then remain open to how grief has transformed you. I loved that one Joy after loss isn't a betrayal. It's actually a way to honor them, which I think is so beautiful. And then turning pain into purpose. And I think you made that point that it doesn't have to be starting a foundation. It can be a small act of just you taking agency, whether that means you decide to help someone else who's going through grief or volunteer, whatever it is, just you sort of acknowledging it and finding purpose out of it or agency out of it.

[Kate Durgie]

There's an amazing exercise, you know, becoming a certified grief coach. Because, by the way, who knew I'd be doing this? I did not. This was not the path I was on. It wasn't like I woke up and was like, I'm gonna write a book. I'm gonna do this. This has all evolved. But in my purification course, there's an amazing exercise that's called how to Mend a Broken Heart. And it's. There's something about in order to mend your broken heart, you have to heal someone else's broken heart. And I love that idea about helping someone else in order to help yourself. And it's this idea, it's like a cycle of, you know, go to a soup kitchen and go serve others in order to heal your heart. Go. You know, for us, it was launching a foundation. Go help others in order to help us. And I love that idea of giving back. And it doesn't have to be in these big, huge ways, but it's the simplicity of holding the door open for someone who is in need, you know, inviting someone to sit with you at the table who might not have someone to sit with.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right.

[Kate Durgie]

And so for me, going back to this book, which, again, it was because there was no book out there that felt right to me. I mean, the book that you and I have talked about, which I loved. Lauren Lynn Jackson, Signs. That was the one for me that was the most comforting, because I saw the signs of Penny right away. You know, she was with us, and I felt her presence, and I knew that. And so Laura's book was so comforting, because I was like, well, I see butterflies everywhere. And I saw butterflies even before Penny passed. They were outside of her window, you know, the last week of her life.

[Leslie Heaney]

And so great light, right?

[Kate Durgie]

Oh, my gosh. Beautiful light, yes. So in looking for the signs, they come to and asking for the signs of your loved ones, they come to you. And that day. There's a beautiful part in the book that we talk about how that last week, you know, the love cocoon that we created, the Rocket ship of love we sent Penny out on. We had anywhere from, I don't know, 50 to 60 people in our home at any one time. And there was music playing and so much light and so much laughter. You know, we kid because the only fight that Chad and I had was over what songs were playing. I wanted yacht rocks, and he was of fish jam bands. But after Penny had passed, Chad and I had taken the boys and the dogs for a long walk in one of our favorite places. And when we got back into the car, Walking on Sunshine was playing. And I talk a lot about in the book how Walking on Sunshine was Penny's favorite song. It was also her life mantra because she literally was walking on sunshine all the time. So no coincidence, that song was playing when we got into the car. But when we got home, beautiful thing was that the house almost seemed to be glowing. It was just lit with this incredible November light. And when we drove in, our friend Michelle Cutaback, who we love, came up to me and she said, oh, my gosh, Kate, I have to show you something. And I said, what? And she pulled out her phone and she showed me this picture that our friends Danny and Timmy Grant had taken when we had been up in the room with Penny, and they had been outside and they thought the light was so beautiful, they took this picture and the light was streaming into the window. And when I looked at the timestamp of the picture, it was the exact moment Penny had passed. And I literally. My breath was like. And I said, oh, my gosh, I have chills even talking about it. I said, that was the moment Penny passed, and the light was so bright. And she said, yes, but do you see what's in the driveway? And in the picture, I looked down, and there in the driveway is the most beautiful glowing cross. Yeah, or any. You know, and she said, or an angel. And so it was the signs immediately of like, okay, she's still with us, you know, but just in a different shape and form. So I think the signs and the recognition of signs for me led to this idea of like, okay, well, we can do this in a different way. Because if I'm seeing the signs of Penny and I'm feeling her close, and it was the same way I felt with my dad and my mom, then maybe I can imagine doing this in a different way. Maybe instead of going through the customized, like, you're going to wear all black, we're going to call it a funeral. We're so sad that we're not going to leave our house. Imagine doing it a different way. Imagine instead bringing everyone together, telling all of Penny's girlfriends, you got to wear color. Like, wear whatever Penny would love for you to wear. You know, let's get all the girls to do a dance, a TikTok dance. The celebration of her life, not the funeral, because she's 16.

[Leslie Heaney]

And all of her artwork at the

[Kate Durgie]

reception and all of her artwork everywhere and funny little sayings on the napkins. You know, Penny used to make fun of our dog Winnie. She'd be like, winnie, you're so fat. And then she'd feed her more snacks under the table. And so we had that on cards, you know, mom, seriously, you know, she would always say to me, so customizing the way that someone is celebrated to celebrate their big, beautiful life, like you did, you know, it's the same way,

[Leslie Heaney]

but having you as an example to do it. I will say, but there was a point in the book, I think your in laws had come over when everybody was gathering. You had music playing. There was another friend of ours, was head of food and beverage. You had a whole system happening over there. Everyone had a job right in the love cocoon.

[Kate Durgie]

And.

[Leslie Heaney]

And they were, I think, initially taken back by it.

[Kate Durgie]

They were.

[Leslie Heaney]

And just didn't, you know, they weren't feeling sort of ready for that at that moment. But then they eventually leaned in.

[Kate Durgie]

Yeah. And it's amazing looking back on that, because I don't know what my parents would have done and I don't know what I would have done if my parents were still alive. And so I think so much of that love cocoon was because I think so many of our friends recognize. All right, well, Kate doesn't have her parents here. They've passed. Chad's parents are in Florida. They were flying up. And so people just started coming in to support. And anytime I got a phone call, you know, people would say, what can. What can we do? And I'd be like, just come over. Yeah, just come be with us. You know, come see Penn. Come lie on the bed with her. She loves you. She wants to be with you. So when parent. When Chad's parents ended up coming up, I think they were so taken back because this is not the traditional model.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right.

[Kate Durgie]

So of their generation, they'd never seen anything like this. They were like, what is going on? What is this party? And, you know, I'd run down the stairs and greet everyone with a hi, I'm so glad you're here. You know, we love you. And people were even taken back about that. Not just Chad's parents. But I think the moment that they came in and we had a friend sit down with him and say, I just want you to soak this up. Just look around. There's so much love, and there's so much support and light in here. You're gonna start to feel it. And I remember that second day, they came back and they were into it. You know, they were at the food and beverage. They were at our communications manager.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right, right. You did have. There was one funny moment where your communications manager, I think, told my husband that she loved him, thinking it was someone else. I mean, it was just. There was.

[Kate Durgie]

I think Andrew's response to her was, I've never felt so loved by Kate. I'm so connected. But she did. I.

[Leslie Heaney]

She did.

[Kate Durgie]

You know, that's an amazing part of when people say, what can you do? I don't think people normally say, all right, well, I need you to do this. And I. And it was so important for me to include everyone and make people feel like they were part of this with us, which is also not the norm. I think so many times through grief, people tend to isolate. You know, they. They. They don't think about, okay, well, you know, I want to include others so they feel a part of this. And we're all connected, and we all need support because no one can go through grief alone. And so, because I think I'm an extrovert, and I. And I love people and my friends so much, you know, they were like, what can we do? I was like, all right, well, you can take my cell phone and you can respond back to everyone. Because I. You know, there was one point where Chad was like, you can't keep responding to people.

[Leslie Heaney]

It's too much.

[Kate Durgie]

It's too much. And. Because once you respond, then they respond, and then you respond.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right.

[Kate Durgie]

And I wanted to be with Penny also. So I said to our friend Samantha, I was like, you take my phone. Tell everyone I love them. This is what we're going through. Come over if they love Penny. And Penny loved them. And then we had people on food and beverage, and it just was music. It was amazing.

[Leslie Heaney]

So we have a close friend who died of colon cancer, and his memorial was in January, and his wife, his widow, who's a very close friend of ours, we kept saying, we're gonna come down.

[Kate Durgie]

We're gonna.

[Leslie Heaney]

They live in Texas. But that was not how she wanted to handle it. Or actually, I think he also didn't. And so we kept pushing and pushing, and then we were respectful of the Fact that not so. I think your point in the book too is sort of, you know, you don't have to do it sort of in any one particular way. You have to do it in a way that feels right to you and right to that person. But let's talk through, because when you do these grief workshops, and it's in this book too, there is sort of the action steps, which I think are very helpful. I was just telling you before we started recording that, you know, we're having this Veronica Beard event tonight. I went yesterday to get something for the event and I asked if they had a plus size section because I have put on what I call the trauma 30 from losing my best friend in November. And

[Kate Durgie]

gosh, I know, but this is a real thing. But this is why I talk about it, Leslie, because it is. Grief is not easy. Grief is messy. It's complicated. And as we said, everyone goes through it. And it. It's like these waves. And for me, the agency here is the tools that I've included in this book to get through those waves. Waves. Because you're going to have great days and then you're going to have really terrible days. And for me, when I faced all of these losses, it was like, okay, what can I do? Because I don't want these waves just to keep hitting me and knocking me down and knocking me down and not wanting to get up and get out of bed every morning, right? So for me, it really starts with movement. And this is not linear. And in the book, I talk about the new five actions to move through grief. You know, for me, it was connection. It was celebrating. It was, you know, looking for the signs. It was movement and turning pain into purpose. That's really. But it's not linear. So some people will say, well, I just want to stay in bed all day. I want to sit in the grief. I want to feel connected to them. I'm going to pull the covers over my head and just, you know, just lie in bed. And. And I get that, but that doesn't serve your lost loved one. Your lost loved one is not going to want you to sit in bed with the covers of your head all day. They want you to reach for the light. They want you to keep living and live in their honor. And so for me, I think I recognized that early on that I was like. My mom was a jazzercise instructor. She was a belly dancer. She moved. And she taught me how important movement is. You know, physical strength leads to mental strength and moving your energy through your body. So for me, it starts first thing in the morning. It's literally like, just put my two feet on the ground and one foot in front of the other and get outside and put your face to the sunshine and move forward. And then I recognize how important people are and connection and support and having your friends and your sunshine. People talk a lot about that. Because in grief, you also recognize who your shower people are. Like, the people who might bring you down and might be sort of like the. What do they call them? The grief chasers. You know, the ones who want to sit in it. And I was like, I want to be with people who are going to bring me up and lift me up and bring me the sunshine so that I can feel good.

[Leslie Heaney]

Because it is very easy to get sucked into shower people.

[Kate Durgie]

Yeah.

[Leslie Heaney]

But, you know, it's interesting. My kids tease me that I get all my information from Instagram, but I've been seeing this thing where they're doing these jaw unlock exercises to release pain that you're holding onto. And as I was reading your book, I thought, gosh, that makes so much sense, what Kate's talking about moving. I mean, I've been on this, I said to you, the drinking and crying and eating cheese, or I was for months. And I'm slowly kind of getting back. Either I buy a whole new wardrobe, only be able to fly first class because I don't fit into a coach seat or whatever it is. I have to reel it in here. Right. But the movement part is not just about sort of like get up and go. It actually has. There's real science behind it of how our bodies do hold onto unprocessed feelings, grief, trauma. And so actually moving through it is really helpful to your recovery.

[Kate Durgie]

Yes. And you know what? There's an incredible research that was just released about a neurologist who talks about the gray matter of your brain and grief. When you're going through it, you're. This gray matter of your brain is in neutral, so it's literally locked. And if you don't move forward, it's almost like that gear is not going to shift into drive. So you're just sitting in it. And so if you show yourself that you can move forward, the gear goes to drive, so that the next time you're feeling it again, the gear's already been there, so it knows what it means to move forward. So it gets stronger and stronger. And I think that's such an incredible way of looking at grief also, because when you've been through one loss, you recognize you've Lived through it. And you. You've. You know, when you get to that other side, you actually look back and you recognize, all right, I'm stronger because of it. I'm. I actually. Even though I was broken, I've healed in a new way that has created a stronger barrier for me so that the next time I experience it, I know that I can keep shifting my gear forward and I can keep moving forward because I'm going to be stronger because of the lessons I've learned.

[Leslie Heaney]

Learn from that. Well, you also talk about. Maybe I'm not framing this correctly, but about the gift that grief gives you in terms of being able to connect with other people, relate to other people. Just obviously, a lot of people talk about just understanding the sort of. Of the. The fragility of life. Right. But. But also that just human connection of relating to someone who's, like, having gone through what I went through when my good friend lost her husband.

[Kate Durgie]

Yeah.

[Leslie Heaney]

I really could feel. I mean, my best friend did. She did feel like we often talked, that if we, you know, if we both were attracted to the same sex, it would have been very easy. Right. So. But anyway. But I could really relate to her experience, having been through it myself, and I'm still going through it myself.

[Kate Durgie]

Yeah. And it's so interesting. I recognize the gifts I've received in life. And a lot of people say, well, you can't hold joy and grief at the same time. But I start with gratitude every day and the gratitude I have for the life that Penny lived. You know, I talk about this all the time, how she lived more in her 16 years than most people do in 100. And are. You know what we say all the time, it's not your life lifespan that matters. It's your wingspan and the impact you leave behind. So I know Penny lived her life's purpose. I do. And I am living mine because of the lessons she taught me. That's the same thing with my mom. You know, she. I think it's a gift. She. She never got old and sick. You know, she left us too soon. But at the same time, I also recognize her life as a gift for me and living it to the fullest.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right.

[Kate Durgie]

With such power, positivity, and light. So I think grief is a gift in that sense of the lessons we take from our loved ones we've lost and the connections we make. So I talked so many women and mothers who've lost children, and I think we all have a deeper, almost appreciation for life and a respect for that and how to help Others. Like this book is about helping others. This is my gift.

[Leslie Heaney]

Well, it. I mean, it helped me. I know I reached out to you. I've reached out to you a lot in the past five or six months. I don't know how long it's been, but just like, how do you do this? How do you do this? And then when I was fortunate enough to get the book and really to get a. To have a guide, it's almost like having like a. Oh, gosh, how did she do that again? I'm gonna go back and look at it again and remember, because there is no guide.

[Kate Durgie]

I mean, imagine again. You know, you lost your best friend, and. And we're in our older years. Not older, but our mid years. Imagine being 16, and you've never lost anyone in your life. Not a grandparent, not a parent, not your best friend. And so for me, you know, for the.

[Leslie Heaney]

And all of those young girls were so courageous.

[Kate Durgie]

Oh, my gosh. And amazing.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[Kate Durgie]

But it was so important for me to make sure that they felt. Felt supported and loved and connected with us. You know, our group text to celebrating Penny, to keeping them, you know, on top of everything we were doing for the foundation and being a part of everything we're doing. But because they didn't have a handbook, I sent them all signs. You know, that was the only book where I was like, okay, I know you don't physically feel Penny next to you, but she's with you. You.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right.

[Kate Durgie]

You know, you may have a terrible day in class. And they would report back to me. They'd walk into their dorm room, and there's a Penny sitting on the ground, and they'd be like, hi, Pen. Or, you know, they're having a terrible day, and they're out on the field missing her during a lacrosse game. And then a butterfly would go by.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[Kate Durgie]

Hi, Pen.

[Leslie Heaney]

So tell me, though, Chad, also your husband, Chad, just for listeners who don't know, Chad is. Chad has a different. Different perspective.

[Kate Durgie]

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he.

[Leslie Heaney]

I mean, he doesn't. He finds connection and comfort, not necessarily from. From the signs, but just from more the science. Right. Of hearing people's experiences of what happens.

[Kate Durgie]

Yeah. And I. And I love that, because Chad and I are clearly very different, but we balance each other in, you know, such a beautiful way that I'm grateful, and we can talk about how, you know, a lot of times, grief of a child and loss of a child can break people, whereas I recognize the gift of how much stronger I think Chad and I are. But we approach it in different ways. So the signs for me were immediate. And even though, you know, Chad heard Walking on Sunshine when we got back in the car, and that was clearly a sign, like you couldn't ignore that or the cross in the driveway. For Chad, it was more on the science. So our friend Julie had sent him this book about near death experiences and he started to read about all these incredible stories that had the same similar take on what happens on the other side after we pass, which is you're absolved of any pain or, you know, depression or any issues you've had. And it's all sort of love, love and light and beauty and just, just sunshine in this most beautiful space. And. And all of the accounts of these NDEs say the same.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yep.

[Kate Durgie]

So I think for Chad that was really important because whether it's difference between men and women, I don't know. But for me, signs were great. For him it was like concrete evidence and report, scientific report reports and stories that he knew where Penny was. I think that was really important for him to have this understanding of like, okay, I can relate and now I know what she's experiencing, which was so

[Leslie Heaney]

beautiful, and know that she's.

[Kate Durgie]

She's okay with God.

[Leslie Heaney]

And your faith is also very important to both of you. I know too.

[Kate Durgie]

Yeah. Faith over fear, that was the biggest thing for us. And it's so funny because I have a rock. Another friend of ours, Kate Milliken, had given me when Penny was one of her first surgeries. She sent it to me and I had it on my desk. And then all of a sudden I was putting post its around the house. Faith over fear. Faith over fear. And I. It wasn't as much of a religious faith over fear as it was a spirituality of, I guess, an understanding that I have faith over fear, that no matter what happens, it's happening for a reason.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right.

[Kate Durgie]

Like we're all, all living our life's purpose and there's a greater being that's guiding us on this path. And that was really important for me. Like this faith of, you know, Penny's living her life's purpose. And I just, I hold that so strongly because she is. Yeah, look at what's happening.

[Leslie Heaney]

And she did.

And look at.

[Kate Durgie]

And look what's happening. I know. Yes, I know.

[Leslie Heaney]

So we talked about connecting with others, we talked about. About gratitude as part of your practice movement, being open to the signs. And then you did touch upon this a little bit about the idea of turning pain into purpose for you and your family and friends. It was launching Penny's Flight foundation, in your case, writing this incredible book. But for other people who might not

[Kate Durgie]

know where to begin, not know where

[Leslie Heaney]

to start, and just are kind of, how do you try to make sense of this? How do you try to make a positive out of. Out of it? You're saying, just helping others. It doesn't even have to be helping others that are grieving, but just helping others. And having that outreach, really, the science shows that your experience also is an example of that.

[Kate Durgie]

It's so beautiful because I think it's something we all take for granted. I was just at our son Frankie's school talk this weekend, and the author of the Mattering Movement or one of the founders of the Mattering movement spoke. Sarah, Dr. Sarah. And she was amazing. And she talks about how important it is to give back and to matter in ways. And I think there's a correlation between this giving back, mattering, but also helping yourself. So you're helping others to help yourself and that healing your, healing someone else's heart in order to heal yours. And it doesn't have to be in big ways. So, you know, every Thanksgiving we go to the Glencoe Boys and Girls Club and, and we feed, you know, the, the kids there and, and give back in that way. And it always makes me feel so good. So it's not about, you know, doing something in a big way. But I have talked to so many people who've had loss, and they say, I don't know where to begin. And I said, well, just lean in with your heart. What do you, what are you passionate about? Where do you want to get involved? You know, is it going to, you know, help at a local hospital? Is it. It bringing cards to kids who are sick? Is it, you know, what is it that's going to fill your heart and help heal your heart? And then maybe they decide, okay, I've done this, and that feels really good. And now I want to do something to honor my lost loved one. So whether it's, you know, a parent whose child has taken their life, because there's all different types of grief. And we know that, you know, there's the older generation who pass peacefully in their sleep, and then there's some messier ones ones. And even with the messier ones, there's still an opportunity to heal your heart by helping others. And I think this pain into purpose, this idea of. And I've talked to many different parents whose kids have unfortunately had struggled with mental health and taken their own life. And I view that as an opportunity to make sure. That never happens to another family. So how do you use that pain to be able to help other families? Is it raising awareness? Is it creating, you know, a social media campaign? Is it advocacy work? Because I've been doing that on, you know, on Capitol Hill for NF funding. Like, what actions are you going to take to be able to heal your heart by helping others?

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah, I mean, in that, you know, along the same lines, my, you know, best friend did take her own life. And I found a professor at UCLA whose focus is on suicide and the correlation between shame and suicide. So he and I spoke a few months ago, and May is Mental Health Awareness Month. So I'm releasing that podcast in May to talk about that.

[Kate Durgie]

Because, Leslie, how important it is to share stories. Like, exactly what you're saying is sharing stories to help others so they don't feel alone. And that's. There should be no shame in any of this, because the more we share, the more we help. And so that's my mission, and I hope that now is part of your mission also is like, how do we help others who are struggling? So that never happens.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[Kate Durgie]

You know, and that's. That's the gift. Right? Like finding the gifts.

[Leslie Heaney]

I didn't tell Kate that this would be one of her grief workshops simultaneously. Are we going to do. Talking about her book? Book, because.

[Kate Durgie]

No, but this is important, and this is why I'm on such a mission, because I feel like we need to change the narrative around grief in that it doesn't have to be so dark and so isolating and so traditionalized. It. It can be.

[Leslie Heaney]

Well, I think talking about it like I talk about her a lot.

[Kate Durgie]

As you should, because she was the brightest light, sunshine, and you should, because then that keeps her alive, you know, and I.

[Leslie Heaney]

But I can see it sometimes makes other people uncomfortable, a little uncomfortable. So. But I'm. I just keep doing it, kind of move through it.

[Kate Durgie]

Well, isn't that funny? Because I think this is also part of my book and part of the language around grief is our culture is not comfortable with grief. And so, you know, I'm so grateful for conversations like this so that we can shine a light on it and how, you know, my hope is to change the narrative around it because imagine in, you know, all the people who would come up to you to be like, leslie, I'm so sorry. And you just sit there and you're like, thank you. What is that? You know, like, people don't know what to say. So my point is imagine instead of saying to someone, I'M so sorry. You say, oh, boy. Randall was the biggest light. I remember the time that she did this and we did this. Like, that's keeping her alive. And that's why you're telling these stories, to keep that connection and keep her big legacy alive versus someone just saying, I'm so sorry, because then it doesn't. It doesn't create a connection.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah. You know, my daughter said to me, at her service, you know, she said, nobody wants to see you. Get up there and ball your eyes out.

[Kate Durgie]

Of course you're going to.

[Leslie Heaney]

And you actually were great strength to me, remembering how you. You were at Penny's service and other friends of ours, but were able to deliver their remarks without. But I thought to myself, gosh, you know, that's really not the point. The point of talking, telling stories about them and loving them is not to. I mean, I can drink and cry, eat cheese in my own time. I don't need to bother other people with that.

[Kate Durgie]

Well, you're showing emotion, and I think showing emotion and sadness is love. Like, it's showing how much you love them. But I always go back to, would Penny want me to be crying?

[Leslie Heaney]

Oh, I'm sorry. That was the point of my story. That's what she said. Nobody. And she doesn't want to see you up there crying. And my boy said the same thing to me. And it's actually been a great comfort to think about it that way.

[Kate Durgie]

That is a reminder. I think people say that all the time, you know, again, when they're like, I can't imagine losing a child. And I say, well, imagine if you did, because I can't imagine. Imagine Penny wanting me to be in a dark closet.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right.

[Kate Durgie]

For the rest of my life.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right. Right.

[Kate Durgie]

I can't imagine.

[Leslie Heaney]

Because then at that point, what. Who's being served by that. And if you look at all of the incredible impact that you've had helping people like me, but also, you know, helping thousands and thousands, hopefully millions, with your book. But just the impact of all the awareness and the. The resources that you've raised through Penny's Flight foundation and all of the partnerships and all of your advocacy, and just that impact alone, that's what she would want you to be doing.

[Kate Durgie]

Well, that's Penny's legacy. And, you know, it's so funny, because I was thinking about this story yesterday about how a year ago, Penny would have been a senior, right, in high school, going to the prom, getting ready for graduation, doing all the things. And I had someone say to me, are you okay, Penny? Would be going to the prom right now. How are you feeling? And I was like, oh, my gosh, Penny's bigger than the prom, right? Penny's wings are so wide. She's. Look at all she's done. And I'm not sad she's not picking out a prom dress because she's reached, you know, hundreds of thousands of kids, and we're finding a cure for the condition that took her life, to help others, like. So I'm not sad she's missing the prom because she's in a bigger prom.

[Leslie Heaney]

She's in a permanent prom.

[Kate Durgie]

Yeah. Yeah, she is.

[Leslie Heaney]

You talk about signs. You know, the day of Randall's reception, Bob Weir died. You remember this?

[Kate Durgie]

Yes, Yes, I do. And. And not only that, but, you know, the beautiful sign. I told you I pulled into the parking lot and Here Comes the sun came on the radio, and I was like, hi, Randall. So I just think that they're, you know, not. I think. I know they're still with us just in such a big, beautiful way. And the more we celebrate them and the more we turn our pain into purpose. Purpose to honor their life and help others. What a beautiful tribute that is.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah. Well, I'll say about the book, not only, you know, as we sort of said at the outset, well, are we all going to be, unfortunately, facing grief at some point in our life? But even if you're not facing grief, I hope you're not. Eventually we all will. But this is just such an inspiring story, your personal story, and how you have, you know, found such great purpose over your pain. So it's just. It's inspiring even if it's not, you know, relevant for everyone at this exact moment. It is relevant for everyone by just the. Your story and the inspiration of all the things that you've done coming out of that experience. But you never sleep. There's always, like, something. I don't know. I mean, I. You know, you're like, talk about, you know, your mother's, you know, energy and enthusiasm in there. 150%. But what's next?

What's next?

The book is coming out.

[Kate Durgie]

We're like, the book is coming out. Yeah. June 16th is the pub date. And who knew? Like, I. The learning curve of being an author is straight up. Right? It's been such an incredibly beautiful journey. And again, the gifts of the loss, like, I would have never written a book. I would have never been sitting here in Nashville having this conversation with you, connecting with people that I would never have met before in such a beautiful way. So like, this whole journey is incredible. I'm so, so grateful for it every day. And so for the book that's going to launch June 16th, I have a book tour.

[Leslie Heaney]

Who knew?

[Kate Durgie]

You know, and by the way, I do laugh, and my publisher laughs as well and says, I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to say this. I like, barely read books before.

[Leslie Heaney]

But my point, because you've got a lot of other stuff.

[Kate Durgie]

I got a lot going on. I listen to books and I listen to podcasts. But my point of this is when you're passionate enough about. About something, you can do anything. And I have a beautiful ghostwriter, Sara Bliss, who I worked with on this book. So that's also a gift, because the recognition that you can tell your story even if you're not an author yourself. There's incredible writers out there. And the process of Sara and I working together, where she took my words and put them into my words, and it was amazing. I just did the audio of the book and listening to my words. They're my words.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[Kate Durgie]

And it feels so. Just such a gift. And so for me, you know, launching this book to be able to help others, I'm doing the book tour. I'm doing all the events. I have so much support. It's like insane. And I'm so grateful. But to have Nora O' Donnell with me at 92nd street, why I have Laura Lynn Jackson with me in Long Island. You have to come to that one.

[Leslie Heaney]

I bought a ticket, ticket for 92nd Street.

[Kate Durgie]

Okay. You gotta come to Laurel and Jackson.

[Leslie Heaney]

I mean, listen, I'm on the tour.

[Kate Durgie]

Come with me on the tour.

[Leslie Heaney]

Wherever the tour is happening, I'm on the tour. Literally and figuratively. Definitely on the tour, but literally wherever I can be on the tour, I want to be on the tour.

[Kate Durgie]

But I'm so grateful. Listen, I mean, you know, the, the pre sales for the book is a real thing. So Belle Burton was introduced by our mutual friend Lee Carpenter. And she's been an incredibly beautiful support because she's just skyrocketed lightning in a bottle with her book Strangers. So she's endorsed the book. She's helped me sort of along the way.

[Leslie Heaney]

That's great.

[Kate Durgie]

Which is so incredible because I think authors, supporting authors. It's like now I support bookstores. You know, as I said, I barely read now. I love reading and I love going into bookstores.

[Leslie Heaney]

Well, she also talk about a story

[Kate Durgie]

of someone who did, you know, facing adversity and challenge. And she, by the way, movement was one of her first things. Things that she did, she got up and she went for this walk.

[Leslie Heaney]

Oh, yeah.

[Kate Durgie]

That she would do. And she talks about that because she said that was what got her out of her funk, because she could have sat around eating cheese.

[Leslie Heaney]

And she also talked about it. People would walk up to her and say, connection, you know, Connection. Right. You know, how are you? And she said, you know, usually, yeah, people, if, you know, if you see someone you haven't seen in a while, you're not particularly close with, you'd say, I'm fine. Whatever.

[Kate Durgie]

Fake it till you make it.

[Leslie Heaney]

She came straight out and said, you

[Kate Durgie]

know, this is what's happened.

[Leslie Heaney]

This is what happened.

[Kate Durgie]

Yeah. She and I talk a lot about that, and I think I related so much to her book because of those steps that she took. And she similarly, you know, connection. She reached out to her sunshine people. She talks in her book about how she had the morning texts and the phone calls with her best friends to lift her up. And then she talks about protecting her energy from the shower people. The people who were going to bring her down and were, you know, just negative about what she was going through

[Leslie Heaney]

and moved and negative about how she was processing her circumstances. People criticizing, you know, I can't believe you're writing a book to tell, you know, it's sort of similar. Not that anyone would ever say that to you, but when you were saying some people didn't. Yeah, this is. Understand sort of how your decision to

[Kate Durgie]

do things differently in order to help others. So it's a perfect example if she's sharing her story in order to help others. So she's healing her heart to help others who have broken hearts. So it's the same sort of similarity here and analogies. And so she's been a beautiful support. So hopefully she'll come on the book tour at some point. But I've got the book tour. We've got fam jam, Penny Slate, our family jamboree. So I have a little, like, pause

[Leslie Heaney]

that is gonna say that's late June.

[Kate Durgie]

Yeah, that's Penny's birthday.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yep.

[Kate Durgie]

So that's to celebrate Penny and to raise funds. We raised, yeah, $1.2 million last year. We've got Nashville locals Drew Holcomb and Ellie Holcomb. They're coming and opening for Eggie, and we've got food trucks and arts and crafts and just a beautiful night, a drone show. We have usually 800 to a thousand

[Leslie Heaney]

people and talk about a love cocoon. I mean, that really is just.

[Kate Durgie]

It's such a. Such a Love Cocoon. And I credit Chad because it was his brainchild. Right out of the gate, when Penny passed, he was like, we to need. Need to. When we launched the foundation, he's like, we need to raise funds. And this was before all the Penny Slate chapters that had launched that were doing these pop up events. But that was our first fundraiser. You know, it was four months after Penny Pass. Penny Pass. In November, we launched the foundation. December, June, we had our first family jamboree. So it's awesome. I think those who want to come to it, please do. It's, you know, directly fund funds, critical scientific research needed.

[Leslie Heaney]

And what is. Tell us quick, how are things going with that?

[Kate Durgie]

You know, you've been amazing.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[Kate Durgie]

I mean, talk about connection and collaboration. And that was like out of the gate. Our main goal was to sort of diffuse and bring down the bearers of these silos of research and funding that had existed for NF before.

[Leslie Heaney]

Interesting.

[Kate Durgie]

And it was all about bringing people together, like share our learning earnings. What are people working on, what's working, what's not. So we've raised over $6 million, $6.2 million for Penny in three and a half years. And we couldn't do it without everyone's beautiful support and generosity. And we're funding great research and the collaboration is amazing and we're doing it. There's treatments and it's amazing. 25 million federal funding this year.

[Leslie Heaney]

It's incredible.

[Kate Durgie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Leslie Heaney]

So that's incredible. And what organ is it? Is it NIH that's leading it? I know DoD well.

[Kate Durgie]

So privately funded. We've got Cold Spring Harbor Labs, we're partnering with the Gilbert foundation, we've got other organizations we are partnering with on research. And the federal funding is to keep what we've got going to support some of the research and treatment, clinical trials. So there's so much. And again, learning curve. Like, who knew I'd be doing this? But imagine if we go back to the book, like Reimagining Grief. Imagine if I had stayed in a dark closet.

[Leslie Heaney]

Right, right.

[Kate Durgie]

The difference everything we've done has made and where we are today.

[Leslie Heaney]

And what a just an honorific. Right. To Penny, on top of all the other impacts that your work has had.

[Kate Durgie]

It's just like such a beautiful way to honor her life.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah.

[Kate Durgie]

And the impact she made and how it continues to make. And it is the butterfly effect because it's just like.

[Leslie Heaney]

Well, that's the other thing too. You know, you talk about, you know, people ask what they can do, but the way You've galvanized, you know, your friends and your friends of friends and your family and everyone around you to be a part of this movement. To me, it's such, you know, I don't think people understand necessarily just how much people want to be involved. And this is a great example of it, that when you lead, right when you leave the dark closet, your friends, your family, your colleagues, your neighbors will follow you because it's healing for everyone to participate in making a difference.

[Kate Durgie]

That's such an incredible point to tell people, because I think people assume that no one wants to, that it's a burden to ask them to do it. And I have no problem asking anyone anything. Like, I'm like, again, you know, what can you do? Oh, let me tell you what you can do. This is where we need help. But I love seeing that people want to be a part of something. They want to give back, they want to get involved and. And how cool is that?

[Leslie Heaney]

Yes. But you've given them. You and Chad and your family and your close friends have given them the vehicle to do that and participate in something, and then they. Greater than themselves.

[Kate Durgie]

That's what. That's it. You know, how do you. You do something that's greater than yourself? How are you mattering? Going back to this idea of mattering, what are we doing that's purposeful, that makes an impact.

[Leslie Heaney]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Kate Durgie]

It's so beautiful when you see it happening in real life because it's just. The butterfly effect is amazing.

[Leslie Heaney]

Well, I'm on figuratively, figuratively and literally, I'm on the tour. For everyone listening, you have to buy the book. Go see Kate and Nora in New York at 92nd Street Y if you're in New York and get this book. Because as I said, even if you're not going through grief, unfortunately, we all will at some point. But more importantly, it's just such an inspirational story. So I'm grateful. I'm so grateful to you, Kate, for sharing it and helping me both for the past few months and during this conversation, which turned into be part therapy session.

[Kate Durgie]

So amazing.

[Leslie Heaney]

So grateful to you. Thank you.

[Kate Durgie]

Thank you all.

[Leslie Heaney]

That brings us to the end of this episode of Duologue. A huge thank you to my friend and inspiration, Kate Durgie. Kate, as I mentioned in this episode, has literally helped me get out of bed in the morning over the past few months. And I hope that her wisdom and quest for joy will see serve as an inspiration to you too, whether you're experiencing grief right now or not. If you enjoyed this episode Please rate

and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify

or wherever you get your podcasts. It really does make a difference to the podcast and spreading the word about the podcast. And so we're releasing a new episode again next Wednesday with the great interior designer Nina Campbell. So until then, this is Leslie and thanks for listening to Duolog.