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- [00:00]
Leslie Heaney
Foreign. Hi, this is Leslie, and you're listening to the interview with Leslie Heaney. In this episode, I sit down with friend and incredible women entrepreneur Eleni Giannopoulos, who is the woman behind the great Eleni's Cookies. Eleni started this business back in the mid-1990s, really just wanting to start a business. That was her initial goal. And she decided to do that by doing what she loves, which is baking. So with this dream and an old family recipe, she went on to launch this now nationally recognized and storied cookie brand called Eleni's. You may have seen Eleni's cookies, I'm sure you probably have, in grocery stores and specialty stores throughout the country. She has a huge celebrity cult following from everyone you know, from Oprah to Drew Barrymore to the Clooneys. But she's also really known for her custom baking projects. She's done everything from cookies for the White House for inaugurations to the Oscars to a replica of Elton John's country house for his birthday party. She's done art installations in apartments. I mean, the list goes on and on. Specialty cookies for hbo, for Game of Thrones and the Sopranos. In this conversation, Analy and I talk about how she got started, and we talk about a lot of the challenges and all the exciting opportunities that come along with being a entrepreneur. She shares incredible, amazing stories about her work, her custom work, her clients, and her process. This episode is an inspiring story of how one woman, with the support of her family and friends, went on to build an incredible brand and a career doing what she loves. With that, I'm so happy to introduce you to Eleni. Eleni, I'm so happy to see you. We met on a trip that a mutual friend organized to Cuba. I don't know, is it eight years ago? It was like, 2016 or 2000. Something like that.
- [02:07]
Eleni Giannopoulos
I'm so excited to be here with you, and I cannot remember. It was an incredible trip. Maybe that's a sign of a good trip.
- [02:13]
Leslie Heaney
I mean, a lot of mojitos, a lot of old cars, and I had a lot of fun with Eleni and Randall. And on that trip, I got to hear a little bit about your incredible company and brand that you built. But I always wanted to talk to you more about it. So as I'm thinking about the pod, I'm like, I'm gonna see if Eleni can come talk to us about your incredible story as a woman entrepreneur who created this incredible brand. So tell me, like, let's talk. Let's Take it back. Right. I always so interested to hear about how businesses get started. How did you take this leap? What was your first idea? Tell us. Tell us about, like, the origin story of Eleni's.
- [02:52]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Well, you're so sweet and thank you for having me today. I think it started because I got married. My husband told me to get a job.
- [03:01]
Leslie Heaney
Is it usually the opposite? I mean, I like. I. Kidding.
- [03:04]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Exactly. I was working at Life magazine and I wanted the liberty of having my own company and my own hours and making my own journey. And I really enjoyed cooking and baking and friends encouraged me to cater, and I didn't really. I dabbled in it and I did not enjoy it. I wanted to be on a very narrow, focused company that I would enjoy and felt was kind of artistic and interesting, but one direction. So I started the cookie company and got so fortunate to one, my husband found the Chelsea Market back in the day. We were one of the first tenants and it was an incredible opportunity. All women owners, bakers, entrepreneurs, primarily all women. And that really kickstarted the business. Coupled with the fact that Martha Stewart, a friend of mine, Darcy Miller, was doing a story on Hanukkah and said, well, wait a second, why don't we also do a story on Greek Easter?
- [04:05]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [04:05]
Eleni Giannopoulos
And that really put my business on the map. And they were really supportive, the whole editorial crew at Martha Stewart. And from the Chelsea market, it grew. And we got a lot of press being in New York City. Co. And had these oatmeal cookies that is still one of our signature items today, but also created these very decorative shaped cookies in all different colors and forms and occasions and seasons and. And next thing you know, we're doing cookies for celebrities and the president and Lady Gaga and it. And it's so fun and it's so ever changing. And I'd say that's one thing that I didn't expect when I started my company is to enjoy both the satisfaction of making a really great chocolate chip and then making a different shape and color and working with different corporate clients.
- [05:01]
Leslie Heaney
Well, you know, I saw when Eleni, she was out in the. I don't know if we call it the green room, but the waiting room here at the podcast studio. And she has a bag and there were some boxes in it. So I hope maybe your famous chocolate chip or oatmeal are in that box that I can take home later or at least have one before we depart. But so you have this idea, you know, you want to be in the baking space, but how did you narrow it down to the cookie. Like was it just. Did you decide I want to have this one particular focus. I think I could really make a like sort of inroads in that particular space. Like what was. Was there something happening in that time and the zeitgeist around like baked goods or you just that I really enjoy this and I am very good at this and I'm going to pursue. Pursue that as opposed to doing a broader category or.
- [05:50]
Eleni Giannopoulos
I think I first looked at baklava because my mother had done Greek pastries and yeah. Dabbled on TV in the Oakland, California area and was known in the church environment in the Oakland community and was back in the day a well known Greek pastry, Greek chef all. Let's state that loosely. So she encouraged a field within cooking and culinary. And I was really interested in baklava and still feel like today I can make a mean baklava. I've actually taught my 13 well. She's now 16 year old daughter how to make a great baklava. However, my parents advised no one buys baklava on a regular basis, which is not necessarily true. But you might want to look at my famous. My mother's famous oatmeal cookies. So when I started the company, I tested baklava oatmeal and yes, unfortunately or fortunately they were correct and the oatmeal stuck and the baklava did not. And from the oatmeal cookie, at first I literally started the cookie company with one cookie. I mean I didn't have this vision of oh, what will it be like 20 years later? It was a little bit more I'm starting a company on a whim, but I'm excited about what has followed. So the oatmeal cookie turned into oatmeal and chocolate chip and a cookie called the everything cookie and snickerdoodles and you.
- [07:15]
Leslie Heaney
Know, all of the things.
- [07:16]
Eleni Giannopoulos
And then in 28, in 2008 we opened a store on Madison Avenue surrounded by the private schools which are nut free. So I decided to make the company nut free. So all the cookies and at the time we also made cupcakes and cakes are nut free. And I really realized I enjoy the design, the marketing, the sales and I'll work with just cookies. And eliminated the cupcakes and all the rest.
- [07:42]
Leslie Heaney
Okay.
- [07:43]
Eleni Giannopoulos
And it's been a terrific decision so that you can focus on what you enjoy most. We created a line called Color me for my daughter when she was young because the frosting was getting all over the house where I would bring the activities Home one time, the dog was running around with blue frosting on the fur was not a good scene. So we created Color Me, which is white plain shaped cookies that you can use edible markers with. And that's a category that we'll be expanding this year. But I've had a lot of fun with it. So I think the idea of just doing cookies and there's really like an endless opportunity within this very broad category.
- [08:21]
Leslie Heaney
But I just love the idea that your mom is this, like, Greek baker extraordinaire, like, super well known in California. She's got these. Because it has to start. I mean, you can have great packaging and you can have great marketing and great, you know, PR and all those things. But if the cookie isn't delicious, like, it sort of stops right there, Right? So you've got the oatmeal cookie. Randall, you come home, you're like, okay, I'm not doing bakava, I'm doing oatmeal cookie. And did just. You knew Eleni's was gonna be the name. Did you just. Was there other things in play or was that.
- [08:54]
Eleni Giannopoulos
No, I think I just went forward.
- [08:55]
Leslie Heaney
Like, we're going there.
- [08:56]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Simple.
- [08:56]
Leslie Heaney
And then what's the next step? Because you have to then write like, commercial kitchen. Like, what are all these, like, steps? I mean, the next step is young entrepreneur.
- [09:05]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Right? You start, like, where do you start? You start with baking out of your home. And then somebody supported us at the Greek church. And the Greek community has been really supportive and they still are today. And then Randall read in the New York Times about the Chelsea market. We can have a commercial kitchen.
- [09:21]
Leslie Heaney
So remind me back then, because Martha Stewart had her headquarters there. Right. Didn't she?
- [09:25]
Eleni Giannopoulos
At one time she was in the Starlight Lehigh building. Right near there.
- [09:28]
Leslie Heaney
Right near there. Okay. I thought maybe it was in it. Okay. It's not, but it was close to it. Right. In my mind.
- [09:33]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Exactly.
- [09:34]
Leslie Heaney
And then for people that listeners that don't know, there's like a bunch of different food stores right in the Chelsea Market back then.
- [09:41]
Eleni Giannopoulos
The Chelsea Market is the home to Oreo. That's where Oreo. The Oreo cookie, which makes it really fun. That's where the Oreo Nabisco factory was.
- [09:48]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [09:48]
Eleni Giannopoulos
And it was a natural for Irwin Cohn to develop it because all of the bays backed up at four feet, allowing this two block area of 15th and 16th street to get trucks in. And yet he created a center mall where people could come in and essentially look for cash and carry and see actual wholesale production happening. Like, you Feel like you went to the source to see the cookies being made, to buy them right off of out of the oven. Same with Amy's Bread and Mary Cleaver had Cleaver Catering and Chelsea Market Baskets and the seafood company.
- [10:26]
Leslie Heaney
Now what. What year is this? Eleni?
- [10:28]
Eleni Giannopoulos
This was like in 97 when we started.
- [10:30]
Leslie Heaney
I was gonna say it was just like 2000. Okay, it was 97. So we're going on. Help me with my math.
- [10:35]
Eleni Giannopoulos
A long while.
- [10:36]
Leslie Heaney
Like not 28 years ago, something like that. A while ago, but that was when it was starting. Right. And then you move in there. And also, how exciting to be with all that. Just that creative, having all these people there. Yeah.
- [10:50]
Eleni Giannopoulos
A great group of women and business owners that we've all stayed in touch with today. The neighborhood grew from being kind of a, let's say, random New York City area to a very hot neighborhood where you could barely get a truck in.
- [11:04]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [11:05]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Both myself and Amy's Bread moved to Long Island City. Our manufacturing, which was really fun with 20,000 square feet, big new adventure for me as a business owner. And we did all the manufacturing there until 2017 when we decided to contract manufacture everything, which is a big change, a big business hurdle. But I'm very happy with that decision today. So I'm growing the company and we're selling to grocery stores or selling to about a thousand grocery stores a day and 100 airports. So have partnered with people who. That's all they do is produce our beautiful cookies. And we manage the business side of it and the selling and the creative and the packaging and social media. So it's a lot of fun.
- [11:54]
Leslie Heaney
When you were at Chelsea Market, then you moved to Long Island City, you were doing all your own production. Right. So you're there and it's like I have in my mind, I think of like Laverne and Shirley and the bottle factory. I'm trying to think of a visual for people, but it's like you're in the factory. You're people making the cookies, you're packaging the cookies. It's all happening there.
- [12:11]
Eleni Giannopoulos
It's great.
- [12:12]
Leslie Heaney
And they're being shipped out.
- [12:13]
Eleni Giannopoulos
It's chaos. It's long hours. It's crazy hours. It's I Love Lucy meets Laverne and Shirley meets. We made gingerbread houses and you name the crazy shape. One time we made a bride's wedding cookie out of chocolate chip. Almost like a blondie.
- [12:32]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [12:32]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Like a five foot tall wedding cake for the Plaza Hotel out of a chocolate chip cookie batter. It was incredible. So the Crazy projects. The extraordinary. It was brilliant for this plant because we could both produce a lot of volume. We made ice cream sandwiches with or gelato with chow. Bella. We did a lot of really crazy, fun things that I think fueled me to be able to grow the company and then have the knowledge to work with contract manufacturers.
- [13:03]
Leslie Heaney
Right. Tell me, like, back in those early days, you've got your name, you've got your, you know, you've got your great recipe. You found your space, you're doing all this stuff. Are you going knocking on doors at Whole Foods? I don't even know if Whole Foods was around by then. Maybe grist. I can't remember. How are you, you know, getting your. The word out, getting your product out. What does that process look like?
- [13:26]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Well, I think the first thing that you said is the most important is the taste, the flavor, the texture. My family was very discerning and did provide a lot of inspiration in some of the recipes.
- [13:36]
Leslie Heaney
You got some Greek feedback, and I'm sure from your mother. Yes, the Greek feedback.
- [13:40]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Whether you want the feedback or not, I got some great critical feedback from my family. I also inherited terrific recipes from friends and family and relatives that have all influenced the recipes we are using and formulas today. All the products that we're making are all natural, crisp, the finest quality ingredients. I think if you don't have that core, to your point, if you don't have the best product, it doesn't matter the packaging. And then, yes, I would sell the cookies to grocery stores like Grace's. Marketplace was one of our first clients. Done a ton of business with Dean and DeLuca over the years. I would say they were instrumental in putting us on the map nationally. A lot of business with Whole Foods New York City, which we're continuing to do today, and they're very supportive. So a lot of New York City accounts, and then I'm from California, grew up in California. We did develop a bunch of California accounts and also corporate accounts.
- [14:35]
Leslie Heaney
Right? Oh, right. Doing stuff. But you would go introduce yourself. You've got your wares. Like, how does. I don't even know how that process works. Like, you go up to Grace's, you knock on the door, or you make a phone call and you say, hi, I'm making these cookies. Can I speak to the manager? Is that how it works?
- [14:49]
Eleni Giannopoulos
I mean, it's all across the board. Some stores will have a formal review process, and you will submit your cookies and recipes and priced sell sheets and other stores, you walk in and you just might be at the right place. At the right time. And they will say, oh my gosh, we've been looking for a product just like this over the last several months. I was actually in a place with my children and I was visiting a cafe for one of their sporting events and saw this, this amazing opportunity. And I. I just introduced myself. Maybe like yourself, I. I do have. I try to keep the cookies with me, my calling card. Anyways, so sometimes you.
- [15:29]
Leslie Heaney
I'm gonna get you a roller bag and Lenny says Eleni's on it. You can just that way, wherever you're going, you just bring your wares just in case you want to.
- [15:35]
Eleni Giannopoulos
My luggage is full of cookies at the airport. Not. I think sometimes you're intentionally soliciting specific accounts and other times in a spontaneous, serendipitous manner. You'll fall upon something.
- [15:48]
Leslie Heaney
It's amazing.
- [15:50]
Eleni Giannopoulos
You don't know what'll stick.
- [15:51]
Leslie Heaney
I first became acquainted with your amazing cookies through all the custom cookies that you were doing, like for events, for charity. And you would do stuff for the White House. I mean, you were everywhere.
- [16:03]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Yes, we were.
- [16:04]
Leslie Heaney
And you still are. But your custom cookies were. I don't know if you're doing as much of that now, but that was in the early aughts. I feel like there was. Was that sort of your primary business back then, would you say? Or like, have you stuck with doing that? And I don't get out much anymore, Eleni. So that's why I'm asking, are you still sort of doing all those kinds of things and things for the White House? Because that was cutting it. People weren't doing custom things like that. Or at least the first time I ever saw it was with your cookies and your product.
- [16:34]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Well, thank you. I employed a lot of artists. We created five foot Tall Gingerbread house for Elton John and yes, cookies for the president and the. We did cookies for the red carpet. So. Right.
- [16:49]
Leslie Heaney
Yes.
- [16:50]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Name it. We combine both artistry and the use of edible photo printing, both to print an image and also to use as a. Like a. An artist tool to help. Like if you were making a high fashion shoe cookie, then we could put the Manolo Blahnik label inside the shoe to look really like a Manolo.
- [17:10]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [17:10]
Eleni Giannopoulos
It was incredible. So in the past years, we've done a lot of couture work, which I would say if you look at my company, it's almost like a fashion company where we've done a lot of couture. But we are focusing on our line to a bigger audience today. The couture was. It continues to be. And we are still doing it. We are making more what one might call a logo cookie or a photo cookie and actually kind of having a blast with it. So you can have cookies for your birthday party or your somebody's office party, their logo, their product launch. And we're having a lot of fun with it. Yes, we still do the highly decorative ones, but I think the emphasis on 2025 will be the coloring cookies going to retail, going to a wider national audience, and certainly our grocery line all we have seven flavors and four specialty flavors. And getting those out to a bigger audience will be the focus while we're still doing projects for specific clients. On the couture level, it's a little less.
- [18:13]
Leslie Heaney
I want to take you back. As I remember you told me this story, and I think it's, you know, for people who are listening. You've always thought about starting a business or kind of what prompts you. You were very close friends with the late Kate Spade. And I remember you telling me this story that you guys wrote something down in a napkin. Tell. Tell me about that. And then, so, yes, you framed it.
- [18:35]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Our best friend and the most amazing, talented woman. And we would go out to dinner six nights a week with my husband and Katie and Andy, and we would both were working in editorial. I was at Life magazine, she was at Mademoiselle. And we would sit around thinking, I want to have my own company. I know my own company someday. I don't want to do this. I have the spirit or drive or interest in doing something different. Okay, do you want to start something together? And we toured with all these wacky ideas and. And it was a lot of fun to sit thinking of different ideas that we might enjoy doing together. And then I think Katie was really instrumental in because she knew I liked cooked. And she said, why don't you cater for some of the editorial at Conde Nast? And that kind of started my cookie company. So I realized I didn't like catering from this experience, which I am grateful to Katie for. So that's how I started the cookie company. And then she was in naturally in fashion and enjoying it. And she had an idea. She was inspired by the Airv choplier bags back in the day and felt like, understandably, I can do it better. Which she could and did. And it was really, we were both so supportive of each other's businesses. And actually we did the cookies for all of her public appearances at Neiman Marcus and Bergdorf's and collaborated as much as we could. You know, within two Very different companies. But I think it was really great and certainly made our friendship even stronger having this in common, that the challenges of owning your own companies.
- [20:11]
Leslie Heaney
I just. I mean, there's such a courage. Right. Involved in taking that step. Right. Of both of you working at magazines, wanting to work for yourselves, wanting to express yourselves creatively, and then actually going ahead and doing it. But didn't you tell. Didn't you write something on a cocktail napkin or something and somebody has it framed in their bar? Either she has it at her house or you have it at your house.
- [20:34]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Oh, I think Katie and Annie must have it.
- [20:36]
Leslie Heaney
Yes, yes. Okay. Somebody.
- [20:37]
Eleni Giannopoulos
There's probably a lot of back envelope scribbles.
- [20:40]
Leslie Heaney
I mean, amazing.
- [20:41]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Today they might say, what were we thinking?
- [20:43]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, exactly. Like, what. When did that all happen? For people who are listening, who are, like, thinking about those same things themselves, about starting their own business, what should people be thinking about? What's your advice to those people who are kind of thinking of leaving their mademoiselle or their life and going out and starting their own. Their own thing?
- [21:04]
Eleni Giannopoulos
I mean, I think you have to do some soul searching. You have to understand if it is a lot of work and it's scary and it's exhausting and it's fun, I would. The highlight from my career so far is the people I've met. I would never have met such an interesting, diverse group of individuals, corporations, and traveled to so many different, you know, locations. Even sitting here with you today.
- [21:30]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [21:30]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Because of the cookie company. I think if Katie were sitting here next to me, we would say together. It's challenging, difficult, fun. You have to be willing to give up, you know, certain things to grow your business. If I were. Well, my son wants to be an entrepreneur. He's almost 18. So I sit here telling him what. Actually, I talk to even my niece about this, who's 30. Why do you want to do it? What makes your company unique? Where do you want to be in 5 years and 10 years? And how will you get there? Why do you think this path in this company will get you there? I would say to people, encourage them to not just think about their idea, but what are you going to do with the idea? The world's changing fast. How will it evolve? How will you evolve? And do you have a supportive community around you? I mean, I can remember days where I would have my parents and family. I put my kids to work at one point. I mean, you need the support both emotionally and financially. If you're going to start a company. You need to think about that. Who's going to be there to pick you up when you're down or to understand that there's. You're not making dinner tonight or you're not picking up the kids or, you know, in our cases. Okay, you're having a baby and going right back to work. So there's some challenges, for sure. And I would say, I look back, my company probably could have grown faster and bigger, but I also raised two kids and two puppies.
- [22:59]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [23:00]
Eleni Giannopoulos
And, you know, life gets in the way sometimes, but it's all good.
- [23:05]
Leslie Heaney
But there is such satisfaction, right, in having this thing that is. That you created and that it's. That has kind of. You sort of revolutionized that space. Okay, you mentioned Elton John's gingerbread house.
- [23:16]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Yes.
- [23:17]
Leslie Heaney
Tell me, like, what other crazy requests that you had or what was like, maybe the most challenging, you know, cookie assignment that you had?
- [23:26]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Okay, so some of the wildest projects, certainly the Plaza wedding cake. Because I felt so responsible for someone's wedding cake. Yes.
- [23:36]
Leslie Heaney
I didn't think about that.
- [23:37]
Eleni Giannopoulos
And we went through trials and transportation tests, and it was very fun for the entire bakery, I have to say. We were really into it. In the Chelsea Market Bakery, I made a six foot walk in gingerbread house for the artist Nayland Blake. It was Nayland Blake art. He created the concept and the steel frame for Matthew Marks Gallery. It was incredible project. It's probably the wildest one we did. So he commissioned my bakery to make the gingerbread squares that filled his steel frame. So when you went to the Matthew Marx Gallery in Chelsea, you walked into a gingerbread house. You could walk in. There could be five people in the house at any given time, let's say. And the entire gallery smelled of ginger. It was so fun. And then it was purchased by an art collector in Los Angeles.
- [24:30]
Leslie Heaney
Stop it.
- [24:31]
Eleni Giannopoulos
We remade all the tiles and shipped to la. I mean, it was so fun. I would never have dreamed I could start a cookie company and then work for Nayland on a commission of a unique project. But then he asked if I would tile his mother's bedroom for a project with Nest magazine to see if you dream better with ginger. So Nayland brought in. I can't remember the name of this wallpaper installer who had obviously quite the reputation. And we installed ginger wallpaper panels all over her bedroom on the Upper west side. The entire.
- [25:07]
Leslie Heaney
Are they edible? I mean, what's the. So is it just like she's.
- [25:10]
Eleni Giannopoulos
They were like 12 inch by 12 inch gingerbread tiles that we had to transport to this Upper west side part of the.
- [25:16]
Leslie Heaney
But if she's just sitting in the tub and she's like, you know, I've had a long day. And she leans over and she cracks one off. I mean, is it like she's in.
- [25:23]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Bed and says, I think I'll have breakfast right now, and grabs one.
- [25:27]
Leslie Heaney
I mean, we have a rat problem in New York. I'm thinking, like, you know, that's what.
- [25:30]
Eleni Giannopoulos
I'm thinking about, too. I would not want gingerbread in my house to that extent. And then Nan golden photographed it and gave us the photograph. So we have the photograph in our kitchen, ironically, today.
- [25:41]
Leslie Heaney
What was your first phone call, though, for the first, like, commission or, like, one of these commissions you did for the White House and things were you just like, gosh, this is just. You know, I thought I was going to be making my cookies and distributing them. I never thought I would be making these kind of specialty things for these incredible institutions. And, you know, what was that like?
- [26:02]
Eleni Giannopoulos
I have to say, it's. It's so fun, like, watching our cookies come down the red carpet. Leonardo DiCaprio, like, literally had. He didn't have the cookie on the carpet, but they were photographed right before, after walking down and being able to see, you know, get all caught up in the moment of the Oscars and the weeks leading up to it.
- [26:26]
Leslie Heaney
What did you do? Did you do the statue?
- [26:28]
Eleni Giannopoulos
We have an artist who is on our staff who illustrates the nominees, so we own the rights to the work.
- [26:37]
Leslie Heaney
Stop it.
- [26:38]
Eleni Giannopoulos
And we would then put all this glittery sugar, and they were, like, very glam. And then we did these gift boxes about the best picture with these little icons where you kind of had to guess, like, why there would be this cookie or that cookie. What picture did it represent? It was really fun. I mean, it was kind of inspired because my husband and I would have people over for the Oscars, and we're kind of competitive. It was almost like the Sopranos. We also did cookies for the Sopranos. Sex in the City.
- [27:05]
Leslie Heaney
What did that look like?
- [27:06]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Did you do photo? Yes, we had photos of all the characters. And I've seen. We did get some, like, bada bing, bing, bing type of phone calls. And it was an interesting experience. No, it was very interesting.
- [27:19]
Leslie Heaney
Wow. I kind of want to learn. Wait. From people in that community, in the.
- [27:23]
Eleni Giannopoulos
All sorts of communities.
- [27:25]
Leslie Heaney
Wow. But I mean, community. I mean, the. The. The mob community.
- [27:29]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Yes, it was very interesting. I'll leave it at that.
- [27:31]
Leslie Heaney
Yes.
- [27:32]
Eleni Giannopoulos
So I would say, poor Lenny.
- [27:34]
Leslie Heaney
She's like, I Actually don't want to get whacked. I've got to. I'm not gonna give you the full scoop. Okay, so you got phone calls.
- [27:41]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Suffice to say HBO asked us to stop selling those cookies, which is kind of fun. And then we went on to be selling a whole collaboration with Sex and the City and Game of Thrones. We did a great collaboration with hbo.
- [27:53]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, my God. So. Well, I mean, how could you? I had a Game of Thrones dinner party for the last episode. This is up in Millbrook. And I had, like, all the flags from all the houses were down the table. We had a cutouts of Tyrion with the. With the arrow that he. I mean, it was just like that show was just. So what did you do for them?
- [28:16]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Did you do highly stenciled? It's a different process. So it looks exactly like the images. There were like four or five different images. Unlike Sex in the City, where we did. We made custom cutout taxi cookies with high heels coming off from, like, billboards and then T shirts that said, I am Carrie, I am Samantha. Whole fashion line. Today, we're doing much more innocent work. We're working on a. We have a license agreement with Eloise at the Plaza, which is fun, really fun. And we're actually collaborating with Yoitoy and Rachel Riley. Rachel Riley does beautiful clothing for children. Yes. For, like, the royals kids and all the rest. And so actually, we all have the license to Eloise at the Plaza, but the three of us are women owners, and we're collaborating together for a line with the toys, the books, the clothes. It's really fun. We've had a great time. We just started working together four or five months ago, so you'll see a lot more of Eloise. We also are the license for Chicka Chicka Boom Boom. And we'll be coming out with a product line of the letter cookies, Working with Simon and Schuster on that. And it's. It's really fun. I mean, it's a children's classic.
- [29:29]
Leslie Heaney
Yes.
- [29:30]
Eleni Giannopoulos
And I feel I'm kind of excited. I still have bookshelves of my children's. Children's books, and we're having a good time revisiting it. Oh, that's different. It's a different chapter in the cookie world.
- [29:40]
Leslie Heaney
Well, you know. You know, you talk to people who have these in different fields or I do, and my new gig here as the podcaster and just. It's so interesting to me in this space that you're in just how many different directions you can go in and how creative you can be.
- [29:56]
Eleni Giannopoulos
It's really fun.
- [29:57]
Leslie Heaney
It's so fun listening to like Chicka chicka boom boom. I would, but would never have thought of it. But now that you mention it, it's brilliant. It makes perfect sense. Okay, so you mentioned that in 2017. So you went from Long Island City to having to contracting out your manufacturing. Was that decision just based on like your growth? Was it just because I guess the manufacturing process is in and of itself a whole other type of business to manage.
- [30:25]
Eleni Giannopoulos
It's true. It's a lot. I've, I've learned a lot. We were managing a 20,000 square foot plan. The rent was going up every year in Long Island City.
- [30:32]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [30:33]
Eleni Giannopoulos
The payroll was going up, the wages in New York City. And it just felt like the right decision. Like, okay, find colleagues, partners who have the same drive for the best cookie. Make sure. I mean, that was my concern, is that the cookies are as amazing as they are coming from the factory that I'm physically working at every day. And with a lot of work, we found the right people and it's been really successful, I think for two reasons. One, it's allowing me to grow the company in a bigger way.
- [31:05]
Leslie Heaney
Yep.
- [31:06]
Eleni Giannopoulos
And it's allowing me to have quality time with my family.
- [31:09]
Leslie Heaney
Yep.
- [31:10]
Eleni Giannopoulos
So I'm working equally hard. But I'm not at a factory 20 minutes from my kids.
- [31:16]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [31:16]
Eleni Giannopoulos
As they're in high school.
- [31:18]
Leslie Heaney
Right. You're not managing the logistical piece. You're doing the part of expanding your brand and the creative and all of that. Now for these custom projects that you're mentioning, does that all happen at a contract that everything is contracted and it's amazing.
- [31:33]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Within the United States, we produce in the United States in four different factories. And you can find the same artists who really specialize in chocolate chip. And one of our best selling cookies is pink sugar. You can find the right factory that is all natural, nut free, kosher, and this is what they make. And we go through trial after trial to make sure the cookie is perfect and crisp and everything that you would want.
- [31:58]
Leslie Heaney
Yes.
- [31:59]
Eleni Giannopoulos
And light and airy and the packaging is perfect. And then a different factory specializes in the shapes and the rolling and the, the sugar dough and the icing. So it's really just becoming more focused, which is, it's really perfect. If I wasn't manufacturing all of it on my own initially, I don't think it would be where it is today because I think you would be challenged to find contract manufacturing when you're doing smaller volume. And that would Be if we were speaking to an audience that was looking to go into manufacturing, the challenge is always going to be volume. So.
- [32:33]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, because they are. You're their customer. Right. So they want to know how many, how many boxes are you producing because you know it's not worth it to them or it would be too costly for you unless you were manufacturing at a certain level.
- [32:46]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Exactly. I had said to a friend who got into the food industry after me and she has a very successful business today. And she reminded me that I said to her, oh, if I had to do over again, I would contract manufacturer from the beginning. I agree it's probably smarter, but you face different challenges because right out of the starting point, you're going to have somebody hounding you for volume and projections where it's your own. Well, you're certainly responsible for payroll and rent and all the rest. Each path is a different challenge.
- [33:21]
Leslie Heaney
But you were talking about earlier, you mentioned, you know, you expanded from Chelsea Market, then you opened a store on the Upper east side kind of near all the stores and you had to pivot your recipe slightly to make it allergy free. There's been a lot, I feel like, I don't know, in the past 10 years, having products that are gluten free and are allergy free is much more. That is just sort of expected now.
- [33:42]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Right.
- [33:42]
Leslie Heaney
For people that are in. In baked goods to offer a lot of different options because people have so many dietary restrictions.
- [33:51]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Right. I love that we are a better for you cookie. That's the new language or that's the language of today. It's a better for you cookie, but it naturally is a better for you cookie because it is light. Our pink sugar birthday chocolate chip. They're all under 50 calories a cookie. They taste. I keep using the word light, but they do taste well. I look forward to you tasting them. After our conversation, I was gonna stop.
- [34:17]
Leslie Heaney
You and say, I remember you gave me some for Christmas a few years back and they were the. In my mind, they were diet cookies because of the 50 the calories were. I'm like, this is the greatest thing I've ever seen because I can have four of these at the price of one. But it tastes like there's no sacrifice in taste. It's delicious.
- [34:39]
Eleni Giannopoulos
We designed them to be yum. This is an old fashioned, great tasting cookie. The idea, my elevator pitch is the cookies taste great and then, oh, by the way, they're nut free, kosher and light and low in calorie. That's not the point. The point is that you could put them out with your teenagers, my teenagers, your husband, a tea party, a dinner party. And even when we designed the sugar cookies that were shaped and highly decorative, the whole idea was that you would have a tray full of oatmeal, pink sugar, chocolate chip, and then the little decorative cookies would just augment. They would add the, you know, quote, conversation to the tray, the conversation to the cookies. But the classic line, the core line would be a delicious cookie that you would go to over and over again. So that was the idea. Yes. We are all natural nut free. We do not have the goal to be gluten free. I don't think you can be everything for everyone.
- [35:34]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [35:34]
Eleni Giannopoulos
And we're already checking off a lot of boxes.
- [35:36]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, of course.
- [35:38]
Eleni Giannopoulos
So we will come back out. The original cookie was vegan. And if you said to people, oh, my gosh, you must try this vegan cookie, back when I started the company, it is vegan. No one would try it. If you would say, okay, try this. It's really fattening, it's pretty heavy. But just take a bite. And we would sit back and enjoy it and love it. Now, today you'll see us doing actually demonstrations all over New York City at Whole Foods every day. We have an employee out there talking to people, letting them try the cookies. And. And like the buzzword in the food industry is trial. You know, they have to try it. You need to get them to try it. Trial. Anyways. But once people try the cookies, then they tend to, like, really enjoy them.
- [36:19]
Leslie Heaney
They're delicious. And I have to tell you, as I mentioned, with those cookies that are thin cookies. Yes, the thin cookies, I couldn't get over how good they were. And you gave me a bunch of different flavors. And then I went to go have another one and like, the entire supply was decimated by my three children. So all of them, all the different flavors.
- [36:37]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Okay, good.
- [36:38]
Leslie Heaney
But you are so right. It's so great to have that. Not only does it taste great, but that you don't even have to worry about the. With kids being around, like, the allergy piece and the nut piece is just sort of off, off the table. So you mentioned Whole Foods and the trials. Can you talk about, like, what that process is? Like when you, like, are meeting with a supermarket and they said, great, we'd like to have your cookie. You have to figure out where it goes in the aisle and like, how does that work?
- [37:06]
Eleni Giannopoulos
I've learned a lot. We have a terrific broker, a national brokerage firm that works for Us that's been very instrumental in helping.
- [37:13]
Leslie Heaney
So there are firms that help negotiate or speak to the grocery stores really, about placement category, all that stuff.
- [37:21]
Eleni Giannopoulos
It's so interesting. Everything is planogrammed. Everything you see on the shelf. There's a chart, there's a place, there's a purpose, there's a price.
- [37:28]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [37:29]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Nothing is random except for the small mom and pop stores that are still and always will be very important to our business. Many of the large chains, like we sell the Sprouts, farmers market, all 425 stores and. And many other chains, that is done by presenting the line and meeting with the appointed manager of that category and then waiting for a reset when they take somebody's cookies off the shelf and put your cookies on the shelf. And there are different strategies. Once it's on the shelf, how do you get somebody to look at it and try it? Because you have about two seconds when somebody walks by that aisle. So it's. I'd say it's been really interesting. I've learned a lot. We're having fun with it. We're seeing success with it on the grocery store shelf and on the airport shelves. And it's challenging, but it's rewarding. Well, the fun learning. Oh, great. Here's the velocity that we're pulling in this week.
- [38:28]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [38:29]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Within the natural category, though, I'm happy to tell you our sales were up or we moved within the natural category of cookies about 200%. It was like a 200% increase. So it was really exciting to see where we register within the cookie space within Natural Grocery in the United States.
- [38:48]
Leslie Heaney
So I was going to ask you that. So the grocery store is like, let's say you're. You're meeting with the sprouts and you're like, here's my, my line of seven different types of cookie. It's with seven that you mentioned. And they're, they're. They. They're going to buy the whole line. They want to try everything out. Then they discover there's four flavors that seem to be the most popular. They then adjust their. Their order based on that. Based on their volume.
- [39:09]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Yes.
- [39:10]
Leslie Heaney
Okay.
- [39:11]
Eleni Giannopoulos
So we might say for us, our lemon birthday and pink sugar are outselling almost everything a chocolate chip. But in New York City, the butterscotch is selling the most. So you adjust it. You look at the marketplace.
- [39:23]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [39:23]
Eleni Giannopoulos
There are certain areas in the south where the ginger's doing really well.
- [39:26]
Leslie Heaney
I was going to say it's been interesting for me to move from New York to Nashville because I Just see different types of foods are more popular or more present than others. You know, it's just interesting by region. You probably are getting different orders and.
- [39:39]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Every area is different. Every grocery store markets is different. They all have a different angle. But it's fun looking at them on the shelf. For example, our pink, red and yellow pop really well off the shelf. And then other cookies like the oatmeal, butterscotch and chocolate chip. So you know, we're obviously really looking at the colors and the way it's right where it is. You obviously want it to be at eye level.
- [40:00]
Leslie Heaney
Yes. Now that's negotiation with the broker or that's something that the stores usually support it.
- [40:05]
Eleni Giannopoulos
And the stores are really supportive of new brands going in. They know it needs the visitors visibility more than likely. And I found that to be pretty terrific. You're not going to find the product on the bottom shelf, which is why you do not want to be right.
- [40:18]
Leslie Heaney
I used to make. Apparently it's discontinued. Obisco stopped making it. But an icebox cake with this black wafers. They don't make the chocolate wafers, the plain chocolate wafers anymore. And whenever I'd have to go look for them, I'd find someone in the grocery store and it'd be like bottom, you know, and the bet that's probably why Nabisco doesn't make them anymore.
- [40:35]
Eleni Giannopoulos
You know, exactly.
- [40:36]
Leslie Heaney
There are. But you know, you. So you want to be kind of where you're in a spot and it kind of. I'm sure it's chicken and egg. Right. As you're selling, you're there. Okay. So for people that are thinking about this is broadly speaking, not specific to cookies necessarily, but however you, whatever you think would be, you know, is, is your answer. But do's and don'ts of starting a business, being your own boss.
- [40:59]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Okay, Lots of do's and don'ts. Yeah, that's a, that's a great question.
- [41:02]
Leslie Heaney
That's, that's a broad question.
- [41:04]
Eleni Giannopoulos
I think. That's a broad question. I think if you are working from home, wherever you're working, if it's the kitchen table or your desk or today people work so casually. Wherever that place is and that time frame is, that's your work. Do not combine. Oh, I think I'll just run out and get a cup of coffee. Throwing a load of laundry.
- [41:25]
Leslie Heaney
Yes.
- [41:25]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Don't make it like it's your job. You're going to your job. Because if you don't have a boss and you're starting the company, it's just you be disciplined as if you're in an office environment and there's 20 people staying there at the boardroom with you so that you're giving yourself the respect you would give other employees. I think depending on the business that you're going into, the other thing I would recommend is to bring on a partner. I did not bring on a partner, but in hindsight, I kind of wish I had. And I'm actually looking to strategically grow the company. And we're today talking about bringing in some partners, I think, for multiple reasons. But one, it's more fun. Yes, it's more fun. And I watched my.
- [42:07]
Leslie Heaney
Two minds are better than one. Right.
- [42:08]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Two minds are better than one.
- [42:08]
Leslie Heaney
Bouncing something off of someone you're collaborating.
- [42:12]
Eleni Giannopoulos
I watched my father have an incredible partnership with his partner. He was in commercial real estate for 30 years. They had a great relationship. Never an argument, bouncing ideas off yin yang sales finance. But he was so Lenny, be careful. It's like a marriage. But his was so great in both his marriage and his business. So I would say, looking back on it, I would encourage somebody to get a partner. I would also think through the finance. If you're a lot of entrepreneurs, I think it's a really known fact, like, they've got an idea, they've got this creative thing. But it doesn't mean that you're running the company and looking at the numbers and make sure somebody's doing that and you're forecasting what your role needs would be. And then other things that women tend to be afraid to talk to people and get out there and seek advice in the industry or outside the industry. And I think that being smart and looking for specific people who can help you is recommended.
- [43:12]
Leslie Heaney
I think the thing people don't realize is that nine times out of 10, people are so happy to talk to you, they're flattered to be asked. It's, you know, what is the point of learning something? And if you're not willing to share it with someone who's particularly a younger person or someone starting out.
- [43:30]
Eleni Giannopoulos
I agree. So. And it's amazing when you start asking people, oh, who do you know in this industry?
- [43:36]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [43:37]
Eleni Giannopoulos
And you get connected.
- [43:38]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [43:39]
Eleni Giannopoulos
And you learn from the experience. Even if the first conversation doesn't land where it needs to be, you learn from it. Yeah.
- [43:47]
Leslie Heaney
There's a takeaway from it. You know, you mentioned being in, you know, you're now in Whole Foods, you're in Sprouts, you're in all these specialty grocery stores. What's next? What's next for Eleni's.
- [43:58]
Eleni Giannopoulos
I think we're looking at the possibility. Well, we did a run with QVC in December, which was really fun, and so we would like to continue that relationship. We're selling to home goods and having a lot of fun and designing a line for them in 25 and trying to work with their buyer, who's amazing. She has. I encourage you to go to home Goods now. She has the whole line there and she'll be working with us to try to develop products for them. We're growing our airport business, which is fantastic. We're partnering with cookies for kids Cancer and supporting that organization, which is. Feels good.
- [44:35]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. How does that work? Is this an organization that donates the proceeds to different cancer.
- [44:39]
Eleni Giannopoulos
No, it's specifically pediatric cancer.
- [44:41]
Leslie Heaney
Okay. To different pediatric cancer hospitals or pediatric cancer research. Okay.
- [44:46]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Specific to the research, a young man who has since passed. Sadly. This child was in my store all the time. I became really good friends with his mom, and she started this organization which is incredible. Baking 96 dozen cookies, which feels like millions and millions of cookies when she started. But anyways, the whole drive is to pediatric cancer. Gets about a dollar for every. A penny for every dollar. And just bringing in awareness research that it needs. And it's a natural for us in cookies to support this incredible organization. We also work with breastcancer.org we had employees with a scare I have had and today mostly women employees. So it feels really on brand to support anything with breast cancer. And. And bc.org is an organization where you can find information in the middle of the night. It's all about information, which is comforting somebody who has just been diagnosed.
- [45:43]
Leslie Heaney
Yes.
- [45:44]
Eleni Giannopoulos
So both organizations are near and dear to our heart and something that we are looking forward to trying to further support. I think you'll see us having fun with the license agreements of Eloise and Chicka Chicka Boom Boom and growing some specialty flavors.
- [46:00]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. I was going to say, what's next in the flavor front, by the way?
- [46:03]
Eleni Giannopoulos
I tested chocolate peppermint and it. And it really did well. And then my employee Reagan loves, and I agree, the cranberry orange, which tastes amazing with champagne.
- [46:15]
Leslie Heaney
Yes.
- [46:15]
Eleni Giannopoulos
So you'll see us expanding on the test runs of this.
- [46:20]
Leslie Heaney
I was going to offer my services to you. If you need, like testers, I can bring children. I mean, I. I've got a. I'll.
- [46:27]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Be sending you a truckload.
- [46:28]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, exactly. I mean, when I got my. My goody package from you, I was like, a few years ago, I'm like, oh, my God, this is the greatest, you know, But I can't wait to see what 2025 brings in the next few years. I'm so happy to see you. Thank you so much for coming and talking to me and to my listeners, not only about your incredible company itself, but just broadly about what it's like to be an entrepreneur and a women business owner.
- [46:54]
Eleni Giannopoulos
And, well, thank you so much for having me. And it's so supportive. Of course, you're a woman here helping me, and I think that would be my driving thank you to all the women that have really gone out of their way over the years to help me out, which is so fun.
- [47:09]
Leslie Heaney
It's great. Well, I'm so happy to see you on.
- [47:11]
Eleni Giannopoulos
It's great to see you.
- [47:12]
Leslie Heaney
And I can't wait to see what you've got in your shopping bag.
- [47:14]
Eleni Giannopoulos
Absolutely.
- [47:15]
Leslie Heaney
Exactly. Thank you so much. That brings us to the end of this episode of the interview. A big, big thank you to Eleni for joining, and as always, thank you all again for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate or review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We release a new episode every Wednesday. So until next Wednesday, this is Leslie. And thank you for joining the interview.