Podcast Summary: Duologue with Leslie Heaney

Episode: The Business Behind the Music with Josh Gruss

Date: January 14, 2026
Host: Leslie Heaney
Guest: Josh Gruss (Founder & CEO, Roundhill Music)

Overview

In this episode, Leslie Heaney sits down with music industry leader Josh Gruss to demystify the intricate world behind the songs we love. Drawing on his experience as a CEO, investor, musician, and founder of Roundhill Music, Josh provides an insider’s perspective on music publishing, copyright, the economics of music, and how songs become valuable assets. The conversation spans from songwriting mechanics in Nashville to high-stakes acquisitions of legendary catalogs and the evolving value of music in today’s digital landscape.

Key Topics and Insights

1. Nashville: The Songwriting Epicenter

• Music culture in Nashville is both collaborative and competitive, with songwriters actively seeking commercial “cuts” (song placements with major artists).
• Nashville isn’t just about country; it’s a hub for all genres and a magnet for performers, songwriters, and session musicians.
  "You're sitting in Nashville where so many songwriters live and are out there already making a living or trying to make a living. It's very much a big business in Nashville music publishing." — Josh [02:27]

2. The Songwriter-Artist Relationship

• Most hit songs are written by professional songwriters, not the performing artists.
• Publishers play a major role: they sign songwriters, provide advances, and match songs with artists via "A&R" (Artists and Repertoire).
• Deals typically involve “co-publishing”: songwriters receive an advance, and the publisher owns a portion of rights for songs written during a set period.
  "An artist might have a great voice ... but they might not be great songwriters. It's sort of like, take Harrison Ford ... he might not be a great director, you know?" — Josh [04:22]

Notable Example:

• Carole King's era at the Brill Building, where songwriters pitched songs to publishers and were paired with artists.
• Classic duos like Elton John (music) and Bernie Taupin (lyrics) exemplify the lyricist-composer collaboration.
  "Bernie Taupin wrote all the lyrics and Elton John wrote the music. Yeah, it's a great example." — Josh [14:24]

3. How Songs Are Crafted in Modern Music

• Today’s sessions are highly collaborative, with songwriters specializing in lyrics, melodies (“top line”), or tracks.
• Publishers host “writers rooms” for song creation and subsequently pitch the demos to A&R and artists’ teams for possible cuts.
  _"Songwriters will have songwriting sessions booked. … It's very rare that a song is written by one person." — Josh [10:10]

4. Understanding Music Rights: Publishing vs. Recording

• Two key copyrights:
  • Publishing Right: The song itself (composition and lyrics)
  • Master/Recording Right: The actual recorded performance
• Major events (like the Taylor Swift–Scooter Braun controversy) often revolve around ownership and control of master recordings, not publishing.

The Taylor Swift Case Study

• Taylor’s early albums’ master recordings were part of Big Machine Records’ assets, sold to Scooter Braun, making headlines and igniting public debate.
• Josh brings new context, noting Taylor’s father was a board member & shareholder at Big Machine, hinting she likely wasn’t blindsided by the sale. "Very. Doesn't seem to make sense to me that her father wouldn't have known that the company ... was going to be put up for sale and that Taylor wouldn't know about it." — Josh [21:24]

5. From Music Companies to Private Equity: The Investor Revolution

• Historically, music rights changed hands inside the business—labels and publishers acquiring catalogs.
• Josh pioneered treating music rights as an investment asset class, launching Roundhill Music in 2010, the first private equity platform for music rights.
• The model: Evaluate catalogs for timeless appeal, acquire, actively manage, and seek long-term, reliable returns.
  "Will this song stand the test of time? If you haven't done your 10,000 hours in music ... you will have absolutely no clue how to answer that question." — Josh [34:47]

Memorable Song Acquisition Example

• Melt With You by Modern English: a one-hit-wonder with persistent popularity, licensing success, and continued cultural relevance.
  "If it's been doing well since 1983 ... it's probably going to keep going for another 40 years." — Josh [37:01]

6. Synchronization and Value Creation

• “Sync” means licensing songs for movies, TV, ads, and more. Roundhill’s dedicated team of 15 pursues sync opportunities, increasing the earning potential of owned songs.
• Stranger Things and Kate Bush’s resurgence with “Running Up That Hill” and the country reimagining of Tracy Chapman’s “Fast Car” are prime examples: a great song’s value can suddenly skyrocket with the right exposure. "Good things happen to good songs over time." — Josh [37:26]

7. Catalog Acquisition and Economics

• When acquiring catalogs, the value often lies in a few major hits; many songs in the deal may be low or non-earners.
• Publishing rights typically last 70 years after the last author’s death; unique global copyright laws (ex: "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" only earning in South Korea) create further complexity. "The rights last 70 years after the death of the last surviving author on the song." — Josh [44:59]

8. New Songwriters and Modern Deals

• While Roundhill focuses on established catalogs, a small portion of investment goes into "frontline" (new) material, particularly in country, where competition for new hits is less fierce.
• Ashley Gorley is a standout Nashville songwriter whom Roundhill signed early, securing rights to highly lucrative new hits.
  "He is ... up to 80 number one songs ... entering the Songwriters Hall of Fame, which happens next week. He’s the king of country, modern country songwriting in Nashville today." — Josh [46:27]

9. The Big Concord Sale and Market Realities

• Roundhill sold a major chunk of its catalog to Concord amid market turbulence; interest rate hikes and stock price issues made the sale necessary despite personal attachment. "I fielded offers to sell. That's the best way to make that gap close really quickly. … It was incumbent upon me as the CEO, to do the right thing for shareholders." — Josh [50:41]

10. Nashville’s New Era and the Live Music Pipeline

• Nashville has emerged as a universal center for music creation and business, attracting not just country but pop, rock, and more.
• Session artists, songwriters, and industry scouts all gravitate to the city, which supports both creative and business ecosystems.
  "It used to be the headquarters for country music. Today, it's the headquarters for all music." — Josh [56:41]

11. Vinyl Revival & Community Engagement

• Josh launched a Greenwich, CT vinyl and guitar shop (Roundhill Music Company) as a passion project—reveling in the resurgence of vinyl and the communal experience of physical music.

"We thought we were going to be selling mostly guitars. We're now selling mostly vinyl. It's great market insight for me because I can see in real time what people want to consume, music wise." — Josh [61:08]

12. Long-Term Vision and Financial Structure

• Next steps include consolidating Roundhill’s funds into a long-term “evergreen” fund, allowing for extended investment horizons—a unique structure in music asset investment. "I never want to be in a position where I have to sell these assets ... a next step for Roundhill is looking to take our existing remaining funds ... and consolidating them into one new fund that doesn't have such a short duration" — Josh [62:23]

13. Personal Fulfillment: The Intersection of Passion and Profession

• The episode closes with inspirational insights on building a career that fuses passion for music with financial acumen.
  "If you love music as much as me, then it's not a job. It's just fun ... It's really the holy grail for life, I think, is to find that." — Josh [66:55]

Notable Quotes & Highlights

• On the magic of a hit song:
  "It's almost like a miracle for a song to actually, like, get to be a number one song—has to go through so many different steps." — Josh [12:36]

• On the investment philosophy:
  "Good things happen to good songs over time. ... Songs get rediscovered through movies, or they go viral on TikTok. You have to put on that Warren Buffett hat of being a patient investor." — Josh [37:26]

• On fulfillment:
  "I've been so lucky. I think it's such a rarity to have your profession be something that you just love to death. ... It's really the holy grail for life, I think, is to find that." — Josh [66:55]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Nashville’s music ecosystem – [02:27]
• Songwriter/artist relationship & publishing deals – [04:22]
• Brill Building & classic songwriting teams – [07:58], [14:24]
• How sessions work today – [10:10]
• Publishing vs. recording rights – [16:22]
• Taylor Swift & Scooter Braun case study – [17:27]
• The rise of music rights as investment class – [22:49], [29:20]
• Catalog selection & timelessness of songs – [34:29]
• Sync (film/tv) licensing & revival hits – [39:14], [40:09]
• Detailed financials, sales, and fund structure – [50:41], [62:23]
• Nashville’s transformation – [56:28]
• Vinyl & retail store project – [60:21]
• Inspirational career advice – [66:55]

Tone and Approach

• Conversational, humorous, and collegial: Leslie and Josh share natural banter, relatable anecdotes (about karaoke, favorite songs, and family), and practical examples from both music and business.
• Accessible but detailed: Josh explains complex music business concepts without jargon, making the material understandable for non-experts and investing enthusiasts alike.
• Inspiring: The episode encourages listeners to find synergy between their professional skills and personal passions.

Whether you’re a music lover, aspiring artist, curious investor, or simply fascinated by the inner workings of the creative economy, this episode delivers unique insight into the evolving world of music ownership and why the songs of yesterday—and today—matter more than ever.