← Duologue with Leslie Heaney
Loading summary
Transcript85 lines
- [00:05]
Leslie Heaney
Hello, this is Leslie, and you are listening to the interview with Leslie Heaney. This morning I drove my 12 year old to school and he was in quite a mood. And instead of taking it personally, I took a deep breath. That's all thanks to the amazing tools and guidance that I've gotten from my next guest, Dr. Aliza Pressman. I feel like anyone who's listening who's a parent, knows of Aliza and her work. But for those who don't, she is a renowned developmental psychologist with nearly two decades of experience working with families. She is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, the Five Principles of Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans. And she's also the host of her own podcast, aptly named Raising Good Humans. I read this book over the summer and have been using, or trying to use all of her tips and tricks ever since. She's really kicked my parenting game up many, many notches. In this episode, Aliza and I talk through each of the principles. And what's, I think, so exciting about the tools or tips that she offers is that they're based in scientific research. It's not just her own approach or her own philosophy. There's real science behind it, which is really exciting. So we talk through each of the principles and then we kind of explore how using them can help our children develop resilience, which for those of you who read any other parenting books, resilience is really the key for them leading healthy, happy, and fulfilling lives. So I would have loved to have kidnapped her or gone on a retreat with her because I had so many more questions and topics I wanted to cover. But I can hopefully get her back at some point for a part two. But in the meantime, this conversation is a great start. It's a great overview for all of us parents. Very excited for you to listen. And please run, don't walk to go out and buy your own copy if you don't already have it, of the five principles of parenting. And with that, here's Aliza Pressman. Aliza, it is so wonderful to see you. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to talk with you today. I have so many questions. I loved your book so much. And for listeners, I'm talking to Elisa Pressman about her book, the Five Principles of Parenting. And I think it's such a pragmatic toolkit, really for real life. And what I really appreciated most about it is kind of your understanding that we're all human and that we make mistakes. You talk about the five principles, the five Rs. Your fifth is repair, which was my favorite, which I feel like I've been using a lot of. A lot of lately. But for listeners, will you just talk kind of broadly about your five principles? Relationships, reflection, regulation, rules, and repair.
- [03:01]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Thank you so much for your kind words. I'm very honored. Okay, so I basically wanted to full all of the science of the early developmental science and child development into five doable in our control as adults. Principles that we can, you know, get right as, you know, more often than not, I like to say, and that those are the most highly linked with resilience. Again, they're in our control, and so it doesn't take away DNA or what neighborhood you live in or what, you know, if there's a pandemic or any of those things. But for me, it was so heartening to say, like, what do we actually. What can we actually do something about as parents? Because not. It's not that much like, but it's something. And I think you see the reverse of it when we don't do it. Whenever I hear a story about something going on in a way that is really extreme. Right. In an adult's life, you typically look under the hood and there was something going on in the early years, and that's extreme. Right. Like, nobody listening to a podcast talking about parenting is in that category. It's just not happening. But. Right.
- [04:24]
Leslie Heaney
It's the people who are not looking for help.
- [04:26]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Yeah. Yeah. Everybody listening. Yeah. But I still think it's nice to have some anchor in the research. And then the reason I chose five was because in this world right now, we're so inundated with content. Like, I have a lot of content knowledge on the science of human development. Of course, this is my area of study. But I'm still a mother who's, like, brought to her knees with humility on the reg, like, because were humans. And so it was really important to me to say, what's in our control, what's rooted in science, what can we align with our values? And what. What about that lets us know what we can throw out as, like, noise? And so that's where I sort of landed was, okay, and I made them all our words, but they're not. It's not my approach or my science. This is the science. And so relationship, reflection, regulation, rules, and repair kind of covers the whole thing. And it's not that I don't also talk about skills we can build in our kids, because I think that's important. We can think about the Important skills that are highly linked with resilience. But the thing we know we can do is the stuff that's in our, you know, with our own responses to things. So that was why that was important to me. And the other thing that I think is just interesting is that I think we want a very prescriptive approach because it makes us feel like there's an answer. And it's super uncomfortable to tell people we don't really know the answer to some of this stuff. And so it's more fun to hear somebody confidently say, this is the script you use. This is exactly the answer. This is the best way. But it's not true.
- [06:20]
Leslie Heaney
Don't tell me that. I've been working on my R as silly as I do.
- [06:25]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
No, no, no. Rs are true. They're really true, but the minutia isn't true. Like how you feed your kid, whether you do this kind of sleep or that kind of sleep. How you. If you go to your kids soccer games exactly this many times, if you have this many meals a week.
- [06:47]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
- [06:48]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
A lot of that stuff becomes like, so prescriptive and prohibitive. And then you, as the parent, if you can't do it, feel so less than.
- [07:00]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [07:01]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
So stressed out that it actually undermines the parenting. That would have been great if you just had ignored that stuff. So if it's helpful, I'm there for it. Like, if somebody wants to get into the weeds with me about how to help their kids sleep through the night, fine, I'm in for it. And I tried to give examples and different approaches, but my key point is you just need to make sure your kids sleep. You don't need to. There isn't one right way to make it happen. So I'll give you the five ways that it could happen because sleep matters for children. But I'm not going to tell you, like, my way is the way for sleep. Right.
- [07:36]
Leslie Heaney
I see what you're saying because, you know, and I don't want to bounce all over the place because I could. I mean, I feel like there's so many things that kind of caught my attention in the book. And one of the things that you've talked about, not only just in the book, but in and around other interviews that you've done, is sort of this values contract or family is kind of actually defining what your values are. And when you were just saying, you know, I'm not going to tell you how to sleep, but you know that you need to sleep. It's sort of you all figuring out or defining what your family's values are and then using that as your guidepost, Right? Probably for the Rs. I mean, for the Rs.
- [08:13]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Totally.
- [08:15]
Leslie Heaney
So for people that are listening, when you're talking about, like, relationships, for each one, will you give just kind of a little definition of that roadmap or the principles so people can kind of think through them?
- [08:28]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Yes. So relationship, I think it's, you know, pretty much there is no development without relationship. So we need relationships. And truly, you know, the more the science comes out, it's so funny because for adults and longevity and all these things, it's like everything comes back to relationships. But what that means. And by the way, relationship could also. You might hear it as connection or attachment. Relationship or attachment or secure attachment or attunement. Those are all the same thing. They're all part of this idea of relationship. They're all ways to make sure that you and your child are basically like, you love each other and you love them for exactly who they are, not some idea of who you wanted them to be and that you get along, you know, like in that real way where you know each other. And I think relationship isn't as complicated as it feels. And so the reason why I actually bookend relationship and repair is that whenever you wonder how your relationship is, look at how you repair, because that's actually key. So, like, I had a moment where I really questioned my own work and this whole field. I mean, I have those moments all the time. Like, I. I would be suspect of anybody that is rooted in science that doesn't question. But I had a falling out with my daughter. Like a five minute one, but it was bigger than I'd ever had. And that we were like yelling at each other. And I don't. I'm not a yeller. I'm actually. I have so many weaknesses, but yelling isn't my thing. And so to see myself get enraged with yelling, and she's, you know, almost 18, and I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe. Like, it was just at that moment where I felt so frustrated that I yelled. And then she yelled back and I yelled back at her and it was like. And then I stormed out of the room. Like, I couldn't believe I behaved like that. And I go into my bedroom and I'm so upset. And I was like, I've just done it. I've had that moment with my kid that she'll never forget. She'll hearken back to this time and she'll be like, this was when, you know, like, it all went.
- [10:59]
Leslie Heaney
By the way, I'm. So. I'm. I'm. I'm sitting on the edge of my seat because I. I feel like I'm. I've had the exact same experience. And I. And I. I want to hear what you did. I want to hear how you. What happened with your repair.
- [11:11]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
So the first thing I did was I called the person who's the relationship for me that I like, because we all need that, too. So the five Rs are not just for our kids with us, but they're also, like, in other relationships. So the first thing I did was, like, I called the person who I feel safe with, who I knew would, like, help me figure out was I. What did I do wrong? What did I do right? What could I. How can I get myself back to zero? And so it was funny because he was like, what would you tell someone else coming to you with this? And I was like, everything I say is nonsense. Forget what I said. It's all over. And he was just like, I don't know that that's true, but, like, what can you do? And I was like, well, I would tell them first to take a breath and remind themselves that they're safe and that their child is safe and this is just an ugly, ugly moment. And then I would talk about reflection, which is the second R, which is, why the hell did that just happen?
- [12:08]
Leslie Heaney
Right? Right.
- [12:09]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
You know, like, what set me off like that? And what does my child need right now? And what, you know, all that. So I did that, and then I regulated. And then I thought about the rule that was broken that got me here and was like, no, that rule really matters. I'm actually sticking with it. Okay. But this is all with the person that I was taught, my trusted adult, right? My kid. So now I'm at repair, and it's nothing to do with my kid. I've, like, gone through that whole process. Nothing to do with her. And that's when I got stuck. And I was like, I don't think we're going to repair. It's over. And he was like, it's definitely not. I promise you that you do this all day with people, but I don't. And I could just tell you that you are just still, like, spinning out, right?
- [12:59]
Leslie Heaney
You're in it. You're still in the moment.
- [13:01]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
So in the moment. Then I get off the phone, I'm sitting on my bed, and I'm sort of, like, trying to just regulate myself And I'm. I'm just unfamiliar with this feeling. I'm always talking to other people about it, but I'm like, it's no big deal when other people tell me. And then my daughter walked in about 10 or 15 minutes later and she looked at me and she said, I'm assuming you're going to want to repair. And I.
- [13:28]
Leslie Heaney
So great.
- [13:29]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
I kind of looked at her and I was like, uh huh. And she gave me a hug and she was like, I totally get it. And I said, I am so sorry. Like, regardless of what we were talking about, the way I talked to you was not okay and I love you so much. And she was like, I know. Anyway, and then she literally just rattled off whatever happened to her at school that day and we moved on. And I was like, I'll be damn. It really is, right? Like it really is a real thing. Like once you have an established close relationship with somebody, including your partner in life and including your children, you just need repair means reconnect. And so as long as you can always come back to that, you basically can throw as many tantrums as you know, you like. Of course you don't want that to be your default setting because you're modeling and more often than not you want to be able to regulate yourself before coming in like that. But it was such a reminder to me, like, okay, I'm buying what I'm selling.
- [14:35]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, well, but the reason why I think it was such a, an easy repair. Right. Even though there was so much buildup to that moment for you is that you have the. As you said, it's the relationship that's the important. The important piece.
- [14:49]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Exactly.
- [14:49]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. I was just gonna. But there are, there are times though, particularly with teenagers, where sometimes you feel like. Can feel a bit disconnected from them because they're, I mean, developmentally, look at me, I'm not a developmental psychologist. At least when I play one on tv, I'm like, I feel like they're, they're looking to, you know, try to, you know, they spend more time with their friends. They're trying to establish their own identity. Right. So they do kind of tend to question and pull away a little bit. So there are those moments. But I think if you continue to just to sort of be there and you know, be present, that core, that foundation is there, you covered relationships, that piece, then reflection. Do you want to talk a little bit about reflection? I mean, you talked about reflection in your own example there.
- [15:32]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
A little bit, yeah. I mean the best thing that I can say about reflection is that it sort of forces you to regulate. Because if you. If any of us take a moment to think, why did I just do that? What's going on? And what does my child need right now? Like, what's their behavior telling me? It almost always stops you in your tracks because you're like, oh, right. You know, like, this reminds me of when I was that age and this happened. Oh, I'm really scared of that. I don't want that to be a thing. So I flew off the handle. And then you can regulate, meaning you can take a breath and say, everybody's safe. Because ultimately, reflection and regulation are kind of their partners. Because when you can reflect, it means you took a pause to think. And when you pause, you're telling your body, there's no saber tooth tiger coming to eat you. You're safe. And then you can regulate. And so we can go to regulation right then in the sense that one of the biggest tasks we have as people is to be able to navigate the difference or distinguish between real and imagined threat. Because most of the times in our lives when we've done something we regret, it's not because we're bad people. It's not because we're insane people. It's because we. We genuinely felt threatened. And so we went in to fight, flight, or freeze. We took away our. We. We took away our thinking brain in a way.
- [17:10]
Leslie Heaney
Right. We're all kind of bringing. To take to the table our own life experience.
- [17:15]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Yes. And that's why we need to work hard to reflect on that. Like, what are the things that set me off the most? They're going to be different. I actually, I was thinking about a time. I mean, this happens to me all the time. People will tell me a story about something that happened with their kid, and what set them off is something that I'm like, God, they. If that. That happens to me daily. It doesn't even. I don't even think about it. It just doesn't set me off. Right. Like, if, if. If something sets me off, it's because there's something about it that is related to my early experience being parented or a worry that I have about if this happens now, what does it mean for the future? It's never, you know, so different things are going to set different people off. One person might be really set off by a disrespectful teenager and another person, me, I don't expect my kids are going to be particularly respectful at all times during their adolescence because it's kind of Their job to have moments of pushback. The difference is, I don't allow it. I'm not like, no worries, Please talk to me like that. But I genuinely don't let it get to me. I. I sometimes diffuse it by saying, like, what a charming morning this is for me.
- [18:31]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [18:32]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
And I'm. I move along. Whereas another person might be like, I will not be spoken to like that. And it's. Their own reflection was missing in that about why that might be happening. Are they the target because they're safe? You know, like, is your teenager having the roughest day? And then they come into the car and say something to you because they can. Again, it doesn't excuse it. It's not like I'm your punching bag. But it does help you say, all right, this isn't about me. This is about what they're going through right now.
- [19:03]
Leslie Heaney
Well, you talk about that and that it's actually been. Not that I should be. I wish I had. Was sitting on a couch and we could really. Or some sort of chaise. And you could be. You could be counseling me as we're going through this. But that really struck me to kind of reflect on what the child is going through and having it not be about you, the parent. So, you know, I've had. Or. We just moved to Nashville, and our seventh grader just started a new school. His siblings are away at school. And, you know, it's been a bumpy. It's been a bit of a bumpy start. Just totally new community, new school, the whole thing. And he. And he's gotten in the car, and he's been in totally foul moods. And I have been. Instead of, you know, stopping myself, I've used the line, all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not. I used that a few times. But I. I've reflected on why he's doing it and tried to not have it be something, because I am. I do kind of by default, tend to fall in the camp of, like, you know, you're being very disrespectful. But now it takes, like, 20 different comments to get me to sort of say that, because it is really important to look at to where they're coming from. And to your point, they're coming to us just to kind of let it all that out, because that's their safe place to do that. They can't do that with their teachers or with their friends or, you know, about certain things. They really.
- [20:21]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Yeah, they'll get real rejected.
- [20:24]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [20:24]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
And I mean, I think it's, you know, it's fair to say, hey, I know you're struggling right now. I just need you to say it in a different way or it's okay to just tell yourself, today, I'm not going to. It's not a battle I'm fighting. I've got a generally respectful kid who's having a moment.
- [20:44]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [20:45]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
And that's going to be the individual. But that's so different from don't talk to me like that without, like, recognizing there's a reason it's happening. And it's probably not the end of the world that they're talking like that. You just. The reason that I think it sets us off is we're like, are you gonna be a jerk?
- [21:02]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [21:03]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
No.
- [21:04]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, that's exactly right. You talk about how all of these five lead to the sixth, your sixth R, which is resilience. And I think anybody who, you know, tries to read as many parenting books as they can, whether they've read or not even just parenting books, but books about, like, Carol Dweck's mindset or Angela Duckworth's grit about the importance of perseverance and growth mindset and really having a successful adult life. Right. Being able to kind of roll with the punches and keep going. And in your book, you talk about how these five lead to. That lead to developing resilience in kids. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
- [21:45]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
I sort of asked myself, like, what is the point of all of this? Like, what are we really going for? And I think a lot of people will say, I want my kids to be happy. But I think what they mean is, I want my kids to be able to come back to happy from whatever separates come their way. And so that's what I think of when I think of resilience. And so that's why I was like, okay, so what are the factors that influence resilience in the literature, in the. In the science of. Of these humans that we have control over? And Those are the five Rs. Those are highly linked with resilience. And there are skills that we can build in our kids to help support also having a better response to resilience. I think what's interesting, I guess the two most important things there are that we talk about toxic stress, tolerable stress, and positive stress. And what I think is the great sale on all of this is that toxic stress is highly linked with really bad stuff later in life, like heart disease and diabetes and addiction and mental illness and just a lot of things.
- [23:01]
Leslie Heaney
Will you define, though, for people who are Listening what you would consider or give an example of what toxic stress.
- [23:06]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Well, so that, yeah, thank you. Because that's the most important thing, which is a lot of people can hear toxic stress. Then they hear stress and they're like, oh my God, is this ruining my child? Because they're so upset because they didn't get invited to this birthday party. No. Toxic stress is relentless chronic stress where you are flooded with cortisol, the stress hormone and it does not give relief. So like in a normal day you're going to have some cortisol spikes, then you're going to come down, you're going to, you're going to be okay. But in a person who's experiencing toxic stress, there's no room for your brain to stop being flooded with that cortisol. And that is the problem. And that happens from either a. Not an unrelenting experience like being in a war torn country or experiencing abuse and neglect or witnessing violence, just terrible things.
- [24:03]
Leslie Heaney
Right, right. Okay, you're making me feel better. I'm like, do I create a toxic environment?
- [24:07]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
No, no. But that's the key is that. Let me tell you what positive stress is. Positive stress is moving. Having a new baby, not getting picked on the soccer team, getting picked on the soccer team, being nervous for your school play, worrying about studying for an exam. These are all short term stressors that have no long term issues because you have a supportive, loving home. And so you know that you're going to bounce back. It's just like it's uncomfortable, it stretches you, it doesn't break you. Now there are tolerable stressors. They're the ones that you wouldn't wish upon your kids, but they're sometimes inevitable. Divorce, a death in the family, things that are really like hard, but they're not toxic. And the reason they're not toxic, the primary reason they're not toxic isn't the quality of the stressor, it's whether or not you have one adult caregiver that you feel safe to come to and sits by your side when you're going through that pain. That's the difference between something that's terrible, that happens for a kid and something that will change their future forever. And so to me, when you look at it in the reverse, when you look at it as, oh my God, kids can experience these things you wouldn't wish upon them, but they can experience them and it actually might build resilience. So you wouldn't, you only need positive stressors to build resilience. We don't need to create divorce, like abuse, is actually toxic no matter what. But I think what's heartening is that your relationship, just you is enough to help a child who's experiencing a tolerable stressor to grow resilient. And that if you look at it another way, you could think about muscle building. We stress our muscles out when we lift weights, but not so much that it. There are tiny tears in order to grow the muscles stronger, but nothing that actually like fully breaks. That would be toxic. But the tiny tears are necessary for growing muscles. You can't, you'll. You'll atrophy if you don't have some challenge. That's why repair is such a beautiful thing. Because when you think about the tiny ruptures from weightlifting and then the repair grows the stronger muscles, this is the same as true for humans. You are not stronger if you just don't lift weights and have those tiny tears, right? You have like weak muscles and atrophy. Your only capacity for building strong muscles is to lift weights or some version of exercise like that. It requires tolerable stressors, it requires positive stressors. It doesn't require tolerable. But when there are stressors that come along, tell yourself these are not toxic because I'm here, I'm here. I'm not fixing it. I can't take it away. I can't bring the grandparent back. I can't change the fact that we're getting divorced, but I can be here. And that means I know you're going to be okay.
- [27:25]
Leslie Heaney
Because there's such a tendency with our generation to be, you know, you've heard of like obviously helicopter parenting, snowplow parenting. Obviously you've heard of that with your profession. But there's a difference. Even if a child, I guess, let's say, has those positive stressors, has a loving parent. We as parents can sometimes act in such a way that we're not allowing our kids to really build the resilience that they need in the way that we respond right to that positive stress. For example, you use like the. The kid didn't get invited to the birthday party. Like, how do we help them develop the skillset to kind of let them move forward after that and not get broken down by those kinds of small. Or didn't make the play or didn't just didn't recover. Because sometimes certain things come easily for certain kids, right? Whether it's. And then if they hit a point in their life and this gets back to kind of growth mindset versus fixed mindset that they hit those roadblocks. Right. They can kind of fall apart unless we kind of help them see that they can. They can move through those challenges.
- [28:31]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Totally. And I think what's interesting about positive stressors is they're definitely going to happen. You don't have to make them happen. What we tend to do, though, is rescue when they happen.
- [28:42]
Leslie Heaney
Right. So what do we. What do we do? Yeah.
- [28:45]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Instead, if your kid comes home and says, I'm so upset I wasn't included in the birthday party and I'm. I'm crying like this kid, let's say, is crying, you're going to be heartbroken because how could you not be? But what they need right then isn't for you to say, I'm going to call the parents and I'm going to get you did. What they need is you to say, that's so crummy. I'm here. Like, tell me what's going on. And then after they've cried about it for 10 minutes and they've, you know, said their piece, then you say something along the lines of, this is hurtful, and I totally get it. Let's take a break from talking about it right now and go do something fun or go get, you know, like, go for a walk or something. That shakes them up a little bit and shows them that we're not going to sit with them in the soup of this. But we are there for them. We're just helping them learn that you don't need to co ruminate like, you don't need to cry with them, fix the problem, fight, you know, stay up all night and say, like, we'll show them we're going to have a better partner.
- [29:52]
Leslie Heaney
Right, right, right.
- [29:53]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
You know, it's. It's this. It's almost easier than that. It's just. Oh, man, that's the worst. That's the worst feeling. I'm so sorry. Tell me what's going on.
- [30:06]
Leslie Heaney
Someone once said to me that you would want. You want to respond to your child the way you would want to have someone respond to you if you were coming to them with a issue, like describing a terrible situation that happened with a friend, and instead of your spouse or your friend saying to you, oh, my gosh, what happened then? Oh, that's terrible. Are you sure you did? As opposed to just being like, gosh, that stinks, and just kind of moving on here. Moving on? Yeah. And not kind of like building on the anxiety around it by asking more questions about it or I wonder why you didn't get invited. What did you, you know, like those kinds of things just sort of. So you talk about the resilience games. This acronym I love, by the way. You love an acronym? I do love an acronym.
- [30:49]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
It's like I'm of a certain age and my brain needs acronyms to remember things.
- [30:55]
Leslie Heaney
I was just trying to talk to my 12 year old about helping him study. I'm like, it's all about the acronym I was giving him. Like, you know, anyway, so I'm right there with you. But gratitude for resilience. Gamestruck by gratitude, autonomy, motivation, empathy and self regulation as skills to help improve resilience. Anything like I that you want to sort of talk about quickly about that. Just sort of. If we want to try to foster that, foster more resilience in our kids or.
- [31:21]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
So in addition to sort of the five Rs that are in our control, there are things that are sort of like, think of them as if you were trying to help your kid. Again, by the way, when I use exercise metaphors, it's just funny because like I, I'm not a worker outer that's like so aware of that. But I do, you know, move and I do appreciate the science of like how important it is for our growth and development. And it does work. The thing that's cool about the 5Rs is of course your kids. It's not, it doesn't require anything of your kids. So you have all this stuff that doesn't require anything of them and it still bolsters their resilience. But games, gratitude, autonomy, motivation, empathy and self regulation does require something of them. But it helps guide you to the things that actually are worth spending time sort of helping your kids bolster. So like gratitude little things like paying attention to thanking people, like doing some kind of ritual like rose, bud and thorn, saying something positive about your day, saying something that was not great about your day, and saying something you're looking forward to. Hunting for the good. When you walk outside the door in the morning, just paying attention to that, you're like, okay everybody, let's notice one sound that's cool. And it's not like shoving it down your throat. It's not about saying you should be grateful. It's about noticing the tiny little things and just baking that into the system of the household. It's about, you know, making fun notes on the door for the Amazon or you know, like the UPS delivery person during the holidays instead of just thanking your aunt. You know what I mean? Like, it's really just paying attention to. There are a Lot of people in this world, I don't even know that do things for me every single day. And it's pretty cool. And it helps you realize that the world, even when you're feeling so miserable or so, you know, like I didn't get invited to the party, that there's some good stuff going on. Which is not to say that you should, you know, when your child is struggling in that moment, say. But look at the bright side, because that doesn't feel good for anybody. But gratitude is, it's something over time to cultivate. And it's easier to cultivate when you make a habit of hunting for something good every day too.
- [33:53]
Leslie Heaney
The idea there then is to kind of, if you're focusing on gratitude that when you're in, when you have a positive stress, if you're practicing gratitude and it's part of your, it will allow you to kind of get out of that and move, be more resilient, move on from that. Is that the, the thinking behind it?
- [34:10]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Yes, but it's not in the moment, it's probably not going to help. But over time, over time, remember, the world is not hopeless.
- [34:18]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [34:18]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
So it's all about being able to come back to happy when you've experienced a setback. Right.
- [34:23]
Leslie Heaney
Because it's bigger than that moment. Right. That little setback.
- [34:26]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Right, exactly. And then autonomy, this is the very quick version. When you feel that you have some agency, you have competence, which you know, that is how we get confident, right? Not just being told we're awesome, but actually being awesome at something. And I mean like being able to put your, the trash out, I'm not talking. And being able to do the dishes, like things that make you feel like you're contributing to the household, not that you're just like served all the time. And, and so if you think about, let kids do for themselves what they can already do, like are you packing lunches for your 12 year old? Because if you are, they can do that. And now not only are you getting a little break, but they're feeling good about the fact that they have more autonomy.
- [35:16]
Leslie Heaney
This is a win. The autonomy. The autonomy. Supportive parent, like sort of. You're encouraging them to do the things that they can. Yes, they can do.
- [35:25]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
And then you guide and encourage them to do things they can almost do. It's like they're not quite there, but you kind of coach them along. And then of course you teach and model things that they can't yet do because you don't want them to get so frustrated because you're asking something of them that they shouldn't be doing. And so that's autonomy, motivation. I think what's interesting about motivation is just how it can make you feel so good when you have an intention and then do it. And so figuring out how to make goals that have steps, think about what those, what barriers might come in your way. Like, let's say it's just, you want to really focus on getting your homework done this week. What are the things that get in the way of that? Is it your phone? Is it wanting to do, you know, wanting to watch a television show? Like, what are those things and how are you going to deal with that? It really gives you, like a bigger picture goal and process for getting things done. And motivation is very awesome. When you've chosen your goals, you're not being told what your goals are. It's very hard to motivate somebody when there's an outside goal, like my parents want me to do X then people often talk about don't, don't give rewards for things because there won't be internal motivation. I have news for people. There wasn't internal motivation and there isn't going to be internal motivation for something. Like for me, I'll, I'll go back to exercise as a running theme. I will not exercise for my internal motivation. I need a reward of some kind and I need to know what's coming every time I do it, whether it's a latte or whether it's, you know, like it. For me it's a latte. But by the way, I'll also give myself a latte every day without exercising. But it's like some little thing that's like, you know what, I'm doing this. And yes, it's good for me, but also there's like a little, little boost for it. That's fine. It's that you also, you don't want those external rewards happening for things that your kid is already doing and sort of learning to motivate for on their own.
- [37:43]
Leslie Heaney
So you would ask them. You would. Because I, I think in the book you talk about sort of saying to yourself, like, I'll go, I can go to the beach tomorrow if I finish this, this chapter. Right. So you want, you want your child to come up with. I can. Something that would motivate them.
- [37:56]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Exactly.
- [37:56]
Leslie Heaney
To get the things they need to get done before then. All right. Empathy and self regulation for empathy.
- [38:04]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
I think the key is that sometimes we think of empathy as the opposite of resilience and that like, you're you're sensitive to other people's emotions, needs, humanity. And so you're going to soften and then not be resilient, but actually showing empathy, having capacity to imagine the other person's experience and be there for it, is incredibly linked with resilience. And it's such a great part of humanity. And I think bolstering empathy first you learn empathy by being empathized with some people. And for all these skills, some kids are just more naturally like that. We all have kids that are like, if you have multiple kids, there's, there's often one who came out of the womb a little more self regulated and one who's like, not. Same with empathy, same with gratitude. Like it's just same with optimism. Like there are just things, there are features that are more natural for some people than others. And so we need to build those skills. Empathy is one of them and we can model it and we can read books and talk about what the character's experiencing and we can talk about what's going on in the world and you're not going to soften so much that your child is going to not be able to bounce back. And then finally, self regulation, which is part of our work and it's part of their work and it's, you know, if you have to pick one skill that's going to serve you your whole life, it's going to be self regulation. Because self regulation allows you to be intentional about how you move through the world. And it goes back to that idea of like knowing when there's a real versus an imagined threat. So you always like what freedom it is to be able to say this feels really bad, but I'm safe, so I don't need to scream at someone and I don't need to run away from this relationship and I don't need to fight this person because I'm safe. The only reason you need to do those three things is when you feel that you're being threatened. So self regulation is the capacity to really distinguish between those real and imagined threats. And the cool thing about self regulation, and I have a bunch of activities in the book, is you can build self regulation muscles by playing board games or by playing Simon says or by I Spy. It's not just like take a deep breath and meditate.
- [40:37]
Leslie Heaney
Right? And that's interesting. So if, if a child is getting really frustrated, let's say playing a board game or kind of loses their temper a bit and it's not, they're kind of age appropriate, what kind of direction or what would you do? You want them to come up with their own tools, sort of like motivation.
- [40:52]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Depending on their age. Right. Like if it's a 12 year old and they're. They've just had it and they've thrown the game out, then I think the first thing we have to do to bolster self regulation in our kids is physically take a breath so that we are regulated when we're speaking to them.
- [41:11]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [41:12]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
If you have a kid who's like. And they're losing their. And you say to them, you need to get yourself calm, it's not going to work.
- [41:21]
Leslie Heaney
Right. That's like poor modeling of the highest order. Okay, so we want to be self regulated as an example and then tell them to take a deep breath.
- [41:30]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Well, you know, when somebody's flipping out, you know, your kid, I can tell you right now that there are times that if I said to my child, take a deep breath, they would be absolutely set off more. And so you have to take the deep breath and say nothing in those cases.
- [41:46]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [41:46]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
And just allow them to experience the burst of feeling. See that it doesn't scare the daylights out of you because you're like, yep, there's that feeling. That's a big one. And that's what you're telling yourself. It's safe, it's just very unpleasant. And usually that feeling like it's a wave, it'll. It'll pass. And then you can.
- [42:07]
Leslie Heaney
And then you. Then you wait for the quiet moment to talk about it.
- [42:10]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Yes. In the heat of the moment, there's not a lesson to be taught.
- [42:15]
Leslie Heaney
Well, Aliza, I wish I was out in LA with you so I could, you know, lay on a sofa and talk to you about all kinds of questions that I have about parenting. But I'm so grateful to you for taking the time to kind of give an overview of your incredible. I noticed on Instagram that your paperback is out. Is it half off on Amazon now? There was some like.
- [42:34]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
It's actually my hardcover is half off on Amazon, I think in anticipation of the paperback coming out in a couple of months.
- [42:40]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [42:40]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
It is half off on Amazon, but that's the hardcover and the soft cover is coming out I think in February.
- [42:47]
Leslie Heaney
Okay, well, whoever hasn't, I feel like everybody I know has. Your book is their bible, as they should. But if anyone doesn't. Who's listening? Run, don't walk. Because it's so incredibly helpful. Again, I've been using my all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not. I just used it yesterday among all the other incredible sort of pragmatic tools and guidance that you give in the book. So thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. It was so nice to get to meet you in person, and I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.
- [43:18]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Likewise. Thank you. And I hope your move goes really well.
- [43:22]
Leslie Heaney
Thank you.
- [43:22]
Dr. Aliza Pressman
Or is going really well.
- [43:24]
Leslie Heaney
We're in it. We're in it. But it's so far, so good. That brings us to the end of this episode of the interview. A huge thank you to Aliza Pressman for joining, and as always, thank you all for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, I hope you'll rate us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever it is that you get your podcasts. And as you know, we release a new episode every Wednesday. Until then, this is Leslie, and thank you for joining the interview.