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- [00:05]
Leslie Heaney
Hey, everybody, this is Leslie, and you're listening to the interview with Leslie Heaney. I'm taping this intro from Bay Head, New Jersey, which is where I grew up. Coming in the summertime, I'm here visiting my dad, and it feels like I am walking on the sun. The real feel, I think, is 103 or something like that. So summer is officially here. Summer also was kicked off this past Sunday with the premiere of season three of HBO's hit series, the Guild. This show is hugely popular. People love it for its great writing and its drama, but also because of their fascination with the vast wealth and pageantry of this time period or the Gilded Age. So I thought you might be interested in going behind the scenes to learn more about this time of great change, wealth, power and drama in American history. And who better to give us a view into this world than Trudy Cox, who's the CEO and executive director of the Preservation Society of Newport County. As you may know, the show is filmed primarily in Newport, at the grand mansions that still remain in Newport. In this episode, Trigg and I talk about the Gilded Age, the rise of the robber barons and families like the Vanderbilts, Astors and Goulds. We talk about the real history behind characters like Bertha Russell and the tension between new money and old money that you see in the show. We talk about the construction of these grand mansions and the architects behind them. We explore how Julian Fellowes went to great lengths to make sure it was historically accurate, ensuring that the story of the rise of elite black Americans was told accurately through his character, Peggy Scott. And we talk about the role of immigrants in this grand Newport society and how they supported those families in those homes. We talk about the culture of religious freedom in Newport, the history of Newport. And while we explore a lot the Gilded Age in that period and the rise of these families and this great wealth, we also talk about the demise of this kind of society and grand culture of the Gilded Age that led then in its wake to the creation of the Preservation Society and the importance of the work the Preservation Society does in preserving this important period of American history. So for history lovers, Gilded Age lovers both, and everything in between, this episode is for you. I'm so excited about this week's sponsor, the 10 Mile Distillery. 10 Mile is an American single malt distillery based in the Hudson Valley about 90 miles north of New York. And it is the maker of the award winning Little Rest Whiskey, made through a slow distillation process with all New York State grains by master distiller Shane Fraser. From Scotland. And when I say award winning, I mean it's earned a 95 out at the whiskey competition in San Francisco and a 96 at the New York International Spirits Competition. This is delicious. If you do not believe me about how delicious this is, the good news for you is that if you're in the New York area, you can go visit this incredible and beautiful distillery yourself. It's set among the most beautiful apple orchard with beautiful views of the mountains behind. Stop by for a leisurely tour or tasting, or even enjoy an expertly crafted cocktail. They also have gin and vodka available. They also have this incredibly delicious Thai restaurant that is in residence there from Thursday through Sunday. To learn more about the distillery, you can Visit them at 10miledistillery.com the Interview all orders will receive 10% off if you put a promo code the Interview at checkout. So go to www.tenmiledistillery.com the interview to get that discount, that 10% off. I promise you, you will not be disappointed. Trudy, it is so nice to see you. Thank you so much for joining.
- [04:08]
Trudy Cox
Thank you very much for having me. I'm excited about this. I love talking about the Gilded Age.
- [04:13]
Leslie Heaney
I know. Well, I know you do. And you and I both, right before we hit record, you mentioned that you saw the premiere, I guess, of the Gilded Age, you know, season three opener.
- [04:25]
Trudy Cox
I did. I saw episode one, and I have to say it was Julian Fellows actually came on and had some remarks at the very beginning of the show. And you know, he's the same writer for Downton Abbey, so he's well regarded as a, as a playwright and as a script writer and certainly knows drama. And he has created this tremendous TV show, as you know, Leslie, that really mirrors life in the Gilded Age here in Newport and in New York City. And many of the themes that occurred in the 1880s and the 1890s of rich American women having children and their daughters get married off to nobility in Great Britain. All of that is happening in this TV show. And I think he took some of the ideas that he has in his scripts right from Newport. Mrs. Russell, who is the key protagonist of the show, is fashioned after Alva Vanderbilt, who was the woman who, as a 39th birthday present was given the task or the opportunity to build Marble House. And she hired the greatest architect in the world, Richard Morris Fund. And as you know, because you know a little bit about Newport, this is a community where social climbing is the hobby and everybody. And there in the TV show that is the Gilded Age. You see, Mrs. Russell each week she's plotting about how she's going to get even further up on the ladder. And so it's just a lot of fun.
- [06:05]
Leslie Heaney
Well, one of the things I read an article about Julian Fellowes and how he sort of got interested in the subject of the Gilded Age and, you know, having, you know, being interested in shooting it in Newport. And he said he was really taken back by the fact that when he got to Newport, he felt like a lot of the Gilded Age, or at least the traditions or the feel of that are very alive and well, you know, in Newport today, which I thought was really interesting. And he didn't get specific about what he was referring to. But I know he's spent some time. Right. He's come and spent time with you and the Preservation Society, and he's given talks. And, you know, we.
- [06:46]
Trudy Cox
We had the. You know, that it was such an unusual. The first season was filmed during COVID which couldn't have made awkward for Rhode island because we were all supposed to be masked. But it was such a great opportunity to really get to know Julian well because we were all kind of staying away from each other and we were all lonely, so we all got to spend some time together. And he is a brilliant man, really brilliant man, and a wonderful storyteller. And the thing that I was most impressed by him is that he knows Newport history very. And American history very well, except for. And you've probably read this, too, he decided to script into the show the role of black Americans. Yes, the Gilded Age. And they were very prominent, and they were making way on their own, and they were involved in professional enterprises. And. But he did say that he did not want to write those parts of the TV show without the help of someone on staff who knew African American history. He was very clear with hbo, I am not an African American history. I know American history well. I know Gilded Age history not well. I do not know African American history well. And I do not want. And I can't afford to make a mistake. So I think that was very wise on his part, because the story of the African Americans in the TV show are very real and very correct, and I'm grateful for that, because what he's doing for people who are watching the show is helping them understand that the role of blacks in the Gilded Age was much more significant then, you know, the Gilded Age is such an interesting period, Leslie, because in general, when you study history in school, you jump from the Civil War to World War I, right? And that period in between really gets lost and yet the Gilded Age in America was a very transformative, innovative period in our lives. It is when the automobile is introduced, the cross country railroad is, comes into being. Airplanes came and everything. Innovation led to horse drawn carriages, into cars, into trains. Sewing machines came about. Instead of hand sewing, the light bulb came into existence. There was so much innovation and not unlike what we are going through today. You know, we can't. I mean, I can remember even, I mean, the iPhone came into existence in 2007. That's not very long ago. And now you can't go to a holiday meal with your family without everybody having one there, that iPhone right next to their fork. And all through dinner, people are looking up things. We are going through that same sort of transformational change that occurred during the Gilded Age. And you know, I give a lot of speeches about this. The speech, the thing that strikes me the most is that I think 46% of the American public went to the Chicago World's Fair in the early 1890s. I mean, think about that. Almost half the population. And it was the first time that people.
- [10:15]
Leslie Heaney
Wow.
- [10:17]
Trudy Cox
Electric lights. And they saw this wonderful court of honor which was the centerpiece of the World's Fair. And they walked away from the World's Fair saying, number one, why can't our buildings be as beautiful as these classical European white city buildings were at the Chicago World's Fair? And number two, why don't we have electric lights in our streets? It was transformational. And I think that we should study the Gilded Age. And that's why I'm so grateful to Julian because he's making us understand that it was a pivotal time in American history. Pivotal.
- [10:55]
Leslie Heaney
One of the things that to me, it's so obviously this show is wildly successful and clearly, you know, viewers, right. The viewing public is really very interested in this period. And as you mentioned, Civil war ends, right? And then there's this boom, this industrial revolution, this expansion where you've got railroads and mining and oil and with that comes great, great wealth. And so I don't know if that is sort of why there's this fascination. This is sort of the first time that maybe American aristocracy in a more public way is emerging. And people are interested in just the grandness of the lifestyle at the time. But it's also, as you mentioned, just it's a time of real innovation and expansion in America. To me, I think part of the interest, at least for the viewing public, is just the grandness and the pageantry and the formality and sort of the whole upstairs, downstairs dynamic. Of that lifestyle, similar to a Downton Abbey lifestyle, looking at how their servants and just all of that way of life that doesn't exist today, or it might exist in Newport, according to Julian Fellows, but doesn't really exist the way it used to. I mean, is that why you. Do you sort of see that, too, that people are attracted to?
- [12:17]
Trudy Cox
Just, I think, absolutely. Look, when you're in Newport, you have two opportunities. You can learn about colonial America. Newport has one of the largest collections of colonial buildings of any American city, any city in this country. Hundreds of colonial buildings, and they're all spectacular. And then you have at the other end of the spectrum, the Gilded Age architecture. And you drive down Bellevue Avenue or through this neighborhood, and it's one magnificent house, Gilded Age house after another. And I do think that people come to be odd. The first word that people say when they walk into the Great hall of the breakers is, wow, that is the word. It's 50ft high and 50ft wide. And you are impressed by the magnificence of this courtyard that is the entrance way to a house like the Breakers. And so I do think the people come partly to Newport to be odd. And then they learn that this is what was happening in the 1880s, 1890s, turn of the century, when people were. Julian talks about this a lot. You know, in England, people built. Magnificent palaces were built in England in the countryside with lots of acreage around those houses. In Newport, the mansions are built right up along the sidewalk. And he said, it's so typically American.
- [13:52]
Leslie Heaney
Because we want everyone to see them.
- [13:53]
Trudy Cox
There's a British man saying about America, you're just going to stand right there on the side of the street and say, I'm here. I'm here. I'm not going to be off in the countryside with thousands of acres of fields around me. I'm going to let you know that I have made it. And I think that's why Julian likes this period of American history so much, because it is very different than what was happening in Great Britain.
- [14:23]
Leslie Heaney
And you alluded. You spoke a little bit about Alva Vanderbilt earlier, but I think part of what he's getting at, too, is the Aravist component of it, where you have this new money coming into Newport and Newport prior to that. And I guess maybe I was reading around the Civil War time, you know, the economy started picking up, and obviously there were sort of old families, you would say, that had been there for some time. Can you talk about sort of what Newport was like right before there was the invasion of the people that wanted you to see their house. And then a little bit about that tension between, as you mentioned, it's a big focus in the show, but between sort of the, the new money and. And old money.
- [15:06]
Trudy Cox
Yeah. Well, so Newport is such an unusual community because it was founded in the 1630s and has, you know, during the Revolutionary War, it was one of the largest seaport cities in. On the east coast and had a. A thriving economy. And the economy centered around slavery, as you know. And that's why we are so fortunate to have the number of colonial buildings that we. That exist in Newport. So around the 1820s, 1830s, Newport becomes the destination for many people outside of Newport, primarily Southerners, who are looking for a way to get away from the heat. The climate here in the summer is glorious. You've got that sea breeze all day long. You've got cool evenings. It's sunny most of the time. And Newport is a wonderful, wonderful. It was called a hospital because it was how you escaped the malaria or you escaped the Southern heat. You came to Newport. And the architecture reflects that too. From the 30s, 40s, 50s. So you have houses like Kingscote or Chepstow that are a very different feel than the Newport mansions, the Gilded Age houses.
- [16:22]
Leslie Heaney
Sorry to interrupt you, but we had a home in Newport, as you know, and our house was built in 1860 by a family from Charleston.
- [16:31]
Trudy Cox
Yeah.
- [16:32]
Leslie Heaney
That ended up. I don't think they ever occupied the house because of the war, but it was exactly what you're speaking to. They wanted to come be in a cooler climate. And now that we live in Nashville and it's June 18th, I can relate to these people. I mean, it's quite steamy down here south of the Mason diploma line. So I understand that maybe you have mosquitoes.
- [16:56]
Trudy Cox
I don't know.
- [16:57]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I never realized. Realized that sort of the. You know, I knew that there was a big migration of Southerners for the, for the temperature piece, but I didn't. I didn't actually understand it from a health perspective, too. That's interesting.
- [17:10]
Trudy Cox
Oh, absolutely. And. And I think that I find it ironic because if, if you spend time in Newport, everybody loves to complain about the tourists and the traffic and, you know, a traffic jam in Newport lasts for about eight minutes, but we think in the middle of New York City. I don't know. It's just amazing. But I think the point I really want to make is that Newport has been a tourism town since the 1830s. It's in our DNA. So for all those who want to complain about it being touristy folks. It's been that way for 100 some years. We got to get over it. This is what we are. And then we were a naval town, as you know, a naval town really, from the revolution on. And we've got the War College and you've got a lot of military activity here in the city. But I think that. So Newport goes from being a destination community. Oh, and it also had its base, of course. And then along comes the Gilded Age, the Civil War. Then the Mark Twain coins the word Gilded Age. He writes the book. Don't ever read it. It's called the Gilded Age. I have read the book. I would not recommend it to anybody. It is truly one of the most boring books I've ever.
- [18:25]
Leslie Heaney
Is it really?
- [18:26]
Trudy Cox
Because I, I was, I was being funny. But he was not funny. He was making a point. He was very, very concerned about what America was becoming. And yes, there's this wonderful surface that looks good and it sparkles, but underneath. And that's what the Gilded Age is all about. You had great wealth, great entrepreneurship, great innovation, but you also had people migrating in from all over the world. Immigrants to fuel the factories. They were needed for purposes. They're coming to America believing that this is going to be their great chance. They arrive in cities like New York and all of a sudden they're living in just recently built tenements. The streets are sewers. Everything is unsanitary and healthy. So there's a dichotomy to the Gilded Age. There's great wealth and there's great poverty. There's an inequity here similar to what we see going on in our country today. And so one of the things that the Gilded Age is known for is the rise of many social causes. For example, the labor movement got its start in the Gilded Age. All these people coming in to work in the factories and all of a sudden they're saying, wait a minute, I'm working 14 hours a day and I'm being paid pennies and I live in terrible squad conditions and I'm going to start standing up for myself. I want more money, I want fair hours, I want a healthy environment, blah, blah, blah. The women's movement got started. Women started saying, hey, why don't we have the right to vote? You had a child welfare reform. It came out of the Gilded Age because so many factory owners were relying upon kids.
- [20:17]
Leslie Heaney
Child labor. Yeah.
- [20:19]
Trudy Cox
So Americans know it in the depth of their souls. It's not right to have a 14 year old working in A factory or a mine and not having them educated. So people started rising up and saying, stop, enough. Women should get the right to vote. People should be paid fairly. Kids shouldn't be in factories, they should be in schools. So it's a very dynamic time. And then you have people like the Vanderbilts and the Fricks and the Carnegies kind of making so much money, doing extremely well. And what do they do? They are going to show off their money a little bit. So they build the Frick Building in New York or they start collecting the greatest collections of artwork anywhere in the the nation, or they build Marble House or they build the Breakers. I'm sorry, I'm taking up a long time because I know you have other questions, but it's this, almost like dominoes, things just start happening and it's very fast paced and it must have been an exciting time, really exciting.
- [21:24]
Leslie Heaney
When you were just talking about, you know, you have this, this great wealth, right? And you have people like the Fricks, for example, you mentioned them building in New York. And then this new money group is coming up to Newport to build and they are drawing from inspiration, whether in person or through drawings or palaces and manor homes in Europe. And can we talk a little bit about that because you mentioned earlier the colonial architecture piece. And I went to St. George's and we had a beloved architecture teacher, Mr. Grosvenor, and I remember, you know, his family quite well, he said that Newport represents. And I, and I think this is true and you can verify it. More different types of architecture than any other place in the world. Because besides the colonial architecture that you mentioned, you had these, you know, these robber barons bringing in architecture. You know, the house that we had was an Italianate villa. But you have, you have all different representations based on whatever they were building, whether it's the breakers or Marble House from the palaces of Europe. And they used materials from there and they brought in trees from there, which is, I think also so fascinating about Newport, which you can speak to too, I'm sure, but will you talk about that? So here they're coming up and then it's almost like an arms race of house building, right? And bringing in these incredible architects and all of these materials from all over the world.
- [22:52]
Trudy Cox
That is so well said, Leslie. It really was an arms race. And every single one of these families had the wherewithal to hire the best architects in the country. And so you had Richard Morris Hunt coming in to work with the Vanderbilts to build the breakers and to build Marble House and to revamp Over a ten year period. Chateau Sur Mer. It had been built in the 1850s. It was essentially rebuilt in the 1870s by designer Richard Morris Hunt. You have Horace Trumbauer, who was the architect for the Elms, architect for Miramar, which is owned by Steve Schwarzman. You had the best of the best. You had Stanford White working at Rosecliffe McKim Mead and White working at Isaac Bellhouse. You had the best of the best architects and they were able to, because of their connections, bring in the best interior decorators, the Allards of the world and the. Well, we'll take Alva Vanderbilt as an example. Her family was from Mobile, Alabama. They left during the Civil War to escape and get away from warfare. They went to Paris. She became a Francophile. She grew up as a young person knowing French, learning French architecture, learning French art. She marries William Vanderbilt and she is given the present for her 39th birthday of designing a house on Bellevue Avenue. She hires Richard Morris Hunt and she directs him to create a French palace. And it is very similar to Versailles. Is that a surprise? Not at all. The breakers looks like an Italian palazzo. That great hall that you see when you enter, if it were in Italy, it would be open. That hall would lead to the sky. But because there's a winter climate here, you gotta have a ceiling over it. But yes, and I do think most of what you'll read about these wealthy industrialists, these entrepreneurs, was that they were very much copying and wanted to be American nobility, European nobility in America. So they were copying the look of the buildings in Europe and adopting the fashions and the styles as a way of establishing themselves as comparable to nobility in France and Great Britain. And I think, I mean, the fortune is that so many of these houses are still around and the misfortune is so many of them have disappeared over time. We created a book that I know you have seen called Lost Newport, which identifies 59 buildings in this neighborhood that were as large as, if not larger than, Marble House or the Elms. And it just is mind blowing to me to try to envision what this neighborhood must have looked and felt like when all of those houses were standing. It must have been glorious. And every single one of them was a family making a statement about the fact that I can afford this and you're going to know it.
- [26:23]
Leslie Heaney
You mentioned that Newport's been a tourist town since the 1830s. Bellevue was a boulevard. Right. So were all kinds of people walking up and down Bellevue or was it looking at the houses or was it just sort of the.
- [26:38]
Trudy Cox
Well, this used to be a dirt road. And actually building as far away in the 1850s as Chateau Sur Mer was considered way out in the country. If you see pictures of Chateau Sur Mer taken during that period, it's surrounded by fields. And you can see from Chateau Sur Mer all the way to the sea, because the breakers hadn't been built then. So this was kind of rural. You know, the colonial part of Newport existed and it was in the central part of town. It's a part that we all know. And this was going way out. So finally, when Bellevue Avenue is built all the way to Cliff Ocean Drive, it changes the dynamic of the whole area, this neighborhood of Newport. So there are now really two parts of Newport. The colonial downtown area and the fancy part, if you will. One of the things that our research uncovered, and we had an exhibition about it last year, was the role of African Americans in Newport during the Gilded Age. And that was really revealing because one of our board members, Leslie, is Keith Stoves. His family has. And he's black. His family has been here in Newport for nine generations.
- [27:56]
Leslie Heaney
Wow.
- [27:57]
Trudy Cox
Nine generations. And Keith is a really good historian about blacks in Newport in Rhode Island. He's the historian laureate for the state of Rhode Island. We're very blessed to have him on our board. And together we put this exhibition together. And much of it came from his own things that his family has owned over the years. But what we learned from that whole research project, I guess, is that there were many, many well off, dynamic entrepreneurs, black entrepreneurs in Newport in the 1880s, 1890s, they were building hotels for other black Americans. So you had the fancy people like the Vanderbilts, but you also had black Americans coming to Newport to enjoy the climate and the qualities of this wonderful city by the sea at the same time. And I suspect that we didn't grow up knowing that there were two parts to our city of this incredible history. And unfortunately, many of the hotels that were built are no longer here, but all built in the vicinity of the o' Drain Building and of the Tennis hall of Fame. But can you imagine? They had their own restaurants, they had their own fashion houses, they were designers. It's just really revealing to me.
- [29:28]
Leslie Heaney
And by the way, I think it's so wonderful and important that the Preservation Society is talking about the history of all Americans that were a part of the community for generations. And during that time as well, Newport also has the oldest synagogue, I think, in the United States. Exactly.
- [29:48]
Trudy Cox
Churro Synagogue is the oldest. So again, this state was founded on equality from the very beginning. And it was the one place that, you know, the Massachusetts Bay people would come to Rhode island because there was religious freedom. And that's what is the base of our state.
- [30:05]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [30:06]
Trudy Cox
There's been religious freedom in this city since the, in, in our city, since the very beginning. So you had Jewish people escaping from elsewhere, knowing that they could come to Rhode island and be safe. And you had Baptists and you had Quakers. And the Quakers were very prominent in Newport, as you well know. And the Quaker meeting house that exists across from the White Horse Tavern, the original part of it, Quaker Meeting house was built in 1699 and this was the center for Quakerism. Everybody likes to think that Philadelphia is the center, but actually the, the New England meeting of Quakers would gather here in Newport and there were thousands of Quakers. And I, I have had the opportunity to read the minutes going back to the 1600s of all of their meetings. And they were the most, I guess you call them the progressives of the time. They were anti slavery 100 years before anybody else. They were pro women. You know, they were way, way out ahead right here in this city practicing that belief and that religion.
- [31:12]
Leslie Heaney
That is fascinating. And that that meeting house is about two blocks from Toro. So you have all of this, you know, kind of a melting pot of different perspectives, but yet it seems tolerance and kind of respect for everybody.
- [31:25]
Trudy Cox
Absolutely. I remember one of the old timers of Newport saying that, you know, when you could, when you grew up in the colonial era of Newport, you could wake up in the morning, go to the Redwood Library, one of the oldest libraries in America, read the newspapers, walk down the street. And if you were Jewish, you could go to a service. If you were Episcopalian, you could go to Trinity. After the church service of the service, you then could go to the White Horse Tavern, which is one of the oldest restaurants taverns in America. I mean, all within about a 10 minute walk of one another. It must have been unbelievable. And much of it has been preserved, which I think is a credit to Newporters who get that we have something very special here.
- [32:14]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, for sure. And a credit to you and the Preservation Society and Doris Duke's foundation for preserving a lot of those colonial homes too. So we sort of talked about, you mentioned a little bit earlier about this big surge of immigrants. Right. Coming in in the late 19th century. And many of them also worked in these homes because I know at the end of our street where we had our house, there was something called 40 steps which went down to the water off of the cliffwalk where the servants would go and you know, have a swim and sort of was their sort of hangout spot, from what I understand. Can we talk about sort of that dynamic upstairs, downstairs, who's working in the houses, what life was like for them, because that was a whole world onto its own.
- [32:57]
Trudy Cox
All of these houses, because they're so big, needed lots of gardeners, chefs taking care of the clothes, all that. At the Elms, I think we've counted as many as 42 people were working behind the scenes. And as you know, because you visited some of the houses, the houses were oftentimes built so that the servant did not come out into the family public spaces. They could operate behind the scenes. And at the breakers, they live on the third of the fourth and fifth floors, and they could walk in the back staircases and nobody in the house would ever see them. You know, it's interesting, we have found in our research that many of the people who worked at the Elms, the Breakers Marble House, came back year after year. Remember, this was a summer community. These cottages were open maybe two months out of the year. Oftentimes, servants would travel from New York up to Newport and work for the summer. But there were also a lot of local people. And we've got lists of people who worked in some of the houses. Mostly Europeans, Ireland, England, Germany, French. Many of them became Americans. They worked long hours, really long. But remember, they were only working two to three months out of the year. So maybe that's how it was justified. But, you know, there was a strike of the workers at the Elms in the early 1900s, and Edward Berwin lost all of his servants. They were all very, very unhappy with the working conditions. It was 1902, very unhappy. And I think it was 22 people walked out on him, and he had 22 new people the next day. So, again, remember I told you before that this was a climate of rich, poor and some inequality and people gaining confidence to rise up. So that's an example of people. Newport had its own strike. These strikes were happening around the country, but it happened right here in Newport, too.
- [35:08]
Leslie Heaney
And what would you mentioned 22 people were working in that house. Like, take a house like the breakers, which I think even including the houses that are no longer there that were torn down, the breakers is the largest right summer cottage, as they like to say, and how many people typically would be employed there and keep that whole machine running?
- [35:27]
Trudy Cox
So we're. We're still doing research on this, but we do know that at the elms, it was 40 some. They had 13 acres of land and then a stables. So between the stable people, the. The garden people, and then the inside of the house people, there are at the Breakers, 39 servants bedrooms. And in each bedroom, and that's. This is. We have a tour now of this. You can go up and see it, and I'll. I'll take you if you want to see it.
- [35:55]
Leslie Heaney
Is it sort of dormitory style? Trudy? I remember some of the houses. It's just sort of small room. Small room.
- [35:59]
Trudy Cox
Small room, yes, small rooms. You know, not terrible living, but still. Yeah, not fancy at all. And in some of the bedrooms, you might have two people. So if you had 39 servants rooms, it could be, well, more than that. And remember that they also hired locals during the summer. So we don't know how the breakers was built. We don't know how many people it took to build the Breakers. We don't know where the people who built the breakers lived. We don't know where they got the. Their food. Every single record that was. They kept the press so far away, the Vanderbilt family did. And somewhere, perhaps some family member has records that show this. But we. We cannot find anything. There's no newspaper coverage. Nobody has anything. So we don't know. But I think the fact that there are 39 bedrooms tells you a lot about the size of that staff. It wasn't small. And again, they were hiring people locally, so just imagine how many more people it was.
- [37:05]
Leslie Heaney
And so these people. So on the off season, as one would say, we don't necessarily. I mean, you were saying they would come back year after year, but they. We don't know if that was sort of. They were employed in the summer, and then the rest of the time they were living in Newport, or maybe some of them went with the families to New York or Boston or wherever they were when they were not in Newport.
- [37:28]
Trudy Cox
That's right. Yeah. We have a lot. We still have a lot to learn. And I guess anybody who's watching the show, please, if you've got that mysterious box in your attic and you don't know what to do with it, and you've opened it up and you see the name Vanderbilt, just give it to us. Okay.
- [37:43]
Leslie Heaney
Have you read Anderson Cooper's book?
- [37:45]
Trudy Cox
Yes, I have. Yeah. Yes.
- [37:47]
Leslie Heaney
That was really. It's sort of. I'm jumping around a bit, but I. We talked about Alva Vanderbilt, right. Who built Marble House. And then. Was it William Vanderbilt's brother, who Bernalius and Alice built? Alice built the Breakers. And that was kind of like, oh, you built Marble House. You you think that's pretty good. How about this, Right?
- [38:11]
Trudy Cox
Absolutely, yes.
- [38:13]
Leslie Heaney
Talk about that tension a little bit, because that I can't. I mean, you sort of get the feel of it, I guess, from the Gilded Age show. But that was really real. Right. That we talked about the arms race, but that competition of like, you know, oh, I see what they're building. Let me see if I can make it bigger and let me see what other trees I can bring in or.
- [38:32]
Trudy Cox
Right. Well, I think it must have been very interesting to be the architect. Richard Morris Hunt was the architect for both the families. And he must have really had an interesting assignment when he was hired by Cornelius. Listen, whatever you do, I want it to be better than my brothers. And of course, his. Richard Morris Hunt's philosophy as an architect was whatever the client wants, I do.
- [38:52]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [38:53]
Trudy Cox
If he wants to turn the building upside down, that's what I'm going to do. Well, but as you know from reading history, the amount of money that was being spent, of course, there are places in New York were as lavish, if not more, as they were here in Newport. So they spent an awful lot of money. And it may be one of the reasons why it's one of the families that has not survived in the way the Carnegie and Frick families have survived. Rockefellers have survived to today. Lots of competition and lots of showing off and lots of showing the world that they could keep up with each other.
- [39:28]
Leslie Heaney
Well, let's talk about that a little bit because you just sort of alluded to it kind of the, the Vanderbilt. You know what I glean from the book? Sort of their very lavish spending habits kind of led to sort of the demise of that family. But there was a decline or massive demise of that society or that period. Right in the. I don't know, maybe it's early 1920s. And I think that's attributed a bit to the personal income tax maybe from what I read.
- [40:03]
Trudy Cox
I think several things happened. The income tax was imposed in 1914. You then had World War I. And, you know, during World War I, many of the people who were servants go off to wars. The people who lived in the houses were going off to war, too. Things come to a standstill. People come back from the war, and then we go through with the Great Depression and then we go through World War II. And by the end of the mid or mid-40s, lifestyles have changed dramatically. I mean, people are just not living the way they were living at the turn of the century. And people come back from war and the last thing they're going to do is be a servant for the Berwin family. I'm not doing that. I mean, intellects change and thinking changes and people don't have as much money because they either lost it in the depression or they're losing it because of the income tax. And it is expensive to maintain these houses. And that's why when I talked about lost Newport and those 59 houses, some of those houses burned down suspiciously. Some of those houses were torn down and you wonder how could you ever tear it? But the owners couldn't maintain them.
- [41:19]
Leslie Heaney
Couldn't maintain them.
- [41:20]
Trudy Cox
Some of them were condominiumized, as you probably know. Some of the houses that were condominiumized, again, the similarities that were condominiumized in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s are now being. Those condominiums are being bought up by one person and put them back together, back into single family homes. Because we're in a little bit of a Gilded Age right now where we have a lot of people, we're portion of people with a lot of wealth.
- [41:50]
Leslie Heaney
A lot of wealth. Trudy, talk to me about the timing of that because it must have been sort of, maybe the Gilded Age show will get to that time period too. But Downton Abbey did, right? You sort of see in Downton Abbey another Julian Fellowes show kind of how some of the other grand families in Grand Estates, they can't, you know, they can't afford to keep them. It's after the First World War and lifestyles changed, attitudes change, but also finances change dramatically. People can't upkeep these homes. So was it, you know, because some of them, for example, the breakers until recently still had family, right? And then there are still some grand homes that are owned by families in Newport. But when did it start? When did that decline? When did you start seeing, oh, gosh, the, you know, the Astros aren't coming up this season or they're selling this house. And then how did that I really want to talk about. I mean, the reason why Gilded Age is even able to be filmed is because of the Preservation Society and all the work that you do in preserving these homes and this piece of American history. So talk to me about sort of when did these things start either burning down, being demolished, and then where did the Preservation Society, how and when, I guess I should say step in?
- [43:09]
Trudy Cox
So I think there's a Life magazine article that is well known to all of us here called the Fading of Newport and that was published in the 1930s. So, you know, it was well acknowledged by journalists that this is a community that is changing. But the demolition of houses was up through the 70s. Some beautiful houses were still around when I was a younger person, and now are gone. And now I don't think that's happening, because the intellect is changing again to preserve. We got started in 1945 when a woman named Catherine Warren, who was on the board of MoMA, and she was a society woman, she came from New Orleans, and she married a Warren, and they summered here in Newport, and there was a colonial house called Hunter House that the rumor around town was that it was going to be dismantled, and the rooms within Hunter House were going to be put and converted into one of the period rooms of the Met. You know, the Met has those great period rooms.
- [44:15]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [44:16]
Trudy Cox
And Hunter House was targeted. And Catherine Warren said, over my dead body. This is our asset. This is our architectural and our decorative asset. We're not going to let that go to New York. So she got some friends together, they bought the house, they restored the house, and over a period of time, they furnished it. And then she had a friend named Countess Sashani, who was the owner of the Breakers. And Countess Sashani stepped forward and said, you know, if I open up the first floor of the breakers and we charge a dollar, we could probably make some money, and that could go towards saving Hunter House. Just a tremendous, tremendous act of philanthropy.
- [44:56]
Leslie Heaney
So the Vanderbilt, sorry, treaty, they still had. They were in the 1940s. The breakers was still in the family. Regional in the family. Okay.
- [45:05]
Trudy Cox
And they moved, essentially moved up to the second, third, and third floors. And actually, by the 40s and 50s, they were actively looking for someone to buy the house from because it was so expensive to maintain. And interestingly, Leslie, in the early 1970s, they announced that they wanted to sell the house. And the Preservation Society had been operating tours at the breakers since the late 1940s, and, of course, stepped up and said, we might be interested in buying it. And it was at the time that the Navy had been essentially kicked out of Rhode Island.
- [45:49]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [45:50]
Trudy Cox
Tens of thousands of people lost their jobs. We were in a deep depression here in the state, across the state. And the breakers was appraised at $366,000.
- [46:04]
Leslie Heaney
Wow.
- [46:04]
Trudy Cox
And we bought it for that price.
- [46:07]
Leslie Heaney
What would that be in today's dollars, do we think?
- [46:09]
Trudy Cox
Oh, I figured it out. I don't remember, but no. Hundreds of millions.
- [46:14]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, okay.
- [46:15]
Trudy Cox
It was just a wonderful opportunity for us.
- [46:18]
Leslie Heaney
Yes.
- [46:19]
Trudy Cox
And along with the contents. So the family was able to help itself, help themselves to things that they wanted to keep, that they left a lot behind. So we've owned the breaker since the 1970s. The Elms was going to be torn down. The last of the Berwyn family, those who remained had no interest in holding onto it. It was going to be converted into. It was either shopping mall or a series of small houses. And Catherine Warren stepped forward. She saved Hunter House. She, with Countess Sashini, opened up the first floor of the breakers, and she saved the Elms from being torn down. And then along came every single one of the other houses. And some of them we bought and some of them were given to us. And now we take care of 11. And that's a huge enterprise. I mean, I have to say that before COVID we were giving a million tours a year. That's a lot of tours.
- [47:16]
Leslie Heaney
Wow.
- [47:17]
Trudy Cox
We're up to about 900,000. We haven't quite recovered, but we upped the ticket price. So we're financially okay. But I mean, the visitor to our houses are the people who are really helping us protect and preserve the buildings.
- [47:33]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [47:33]
Trudy Cox
We could not do what we do. Everything that we do is expensive. We just restored Rosecliffe, which is a Stanford White House, probably one of the most, I think you would agree, one of the most beautiful houses in America. And it cost us $7.3 million to restore.
- [47:52]
Leslie Heaney
I was going to ask you what. What are your expense? I mean, I guess it depends. It's depending on some of this, you know, these deferred maintenance, big expenses like. Like that. Right. But on average, you know, all of us that are listening have a home or a rental or wherever you live, you know, something leaks or breaks or. I mean, I can't imagine the amount of manpower. Right. That goes into keeping up these houses. And then the expense of it, too.
- [48:20]
Trudy Cox
Well, it is very expensive. And I will say that just as soon as you finish one project in your own house.
- [48:28]
Leslie Heaney
Like whack a mole.
- [48:29]
Trudy Cox
Yeah, another. Exactly. It just. We never are out from under. There is always another challenge or another burden. And so we rely upon our visitors. We rely upon gifts that are given to us by many, many generous people. We've got about 37,000 members around the country, and they are all very supportive and generous to us. And then we have, you know, our museum stores, and we have, as you chaired a. A very significant dinner dance for us in 2019. And the. The events that we. We're. We have a very active summer. We have Christine Baranski, who is of.
- [49:12]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, yes, tell us what's happening this summer. I read that, you know that she.
- [49:15]
Trudy Cox
Is coming to town in August Town.
- [49:17]
Leslie Heaney
With someone else, that is.
- [49:19]
Trudy Cox
Yes. And we have Sam Waterston coming.
- [49:21]
Leslie Heaney
Waterston who I, for those who don't know his name as an actor, is. Was the head DA in Law and Order, one of my all time favorite shows.
- [49:30]
Trudy Cox
Exactly.
- [49:31]
Leslie Heaney
And why is he coming?
- [49:32]
Trudy Cox
Because he was in the original Gilded. He was in the original Great Gatsby.
- [49:38]
Leslie Heaney
Great Gatsby, yes.
- [49:40]
Trudy Cox
He filmed with Robert Redford and Mia Farrow. And he's gonna be coming back to Newport to talk about his memories of making that movie right here in Newport, at Rosecliffe and at Marble House. I'm really looking forward to hearing, hearing him talk. I suspect he has some really good memories about that. And then we have coaching weekend.
- [50:01]
Leslie Heaney
I was going to say talk about a little bit about coaching weekend because I feel like many people listening have.
- [50:07]
Trudy Cox
An idea of what it is.
- [50:08]
Leslie Heaney
Yes, but that's one of the things that's so important about the work that you do and how community, people in the Newport community really maintain these traditions.
- [50:21]
Trudy Cox
Exactly. We are very lucky. So a coach is. The coaches that drive through the streets of Newport during coaching weekend are vintage coaches from the 1890s turn of the century. The coaches are driven by four horses. And the people who drive a coach, they're called whips. And they literally do. It's called a four in hand. And they literally do drive four horses with one hand. That's why it's called four in hand. And you know, it's. It turns the streets into gilded age fantasies and purposes. And as three days and thousands of people line the streets to see the coaches go by. It's beautiful. It's absolutely beautiful. And we do it every three years and everybody gets into the spirit and the women on the coaches have big, beautiful hats and gloves and everybody has a lot of fun and there's a. A lot of entertaining going on. And we have an exhibition at the Elms every Saturday of that weekend. And we have somebody explaining the history of each coach, who the whip is, why the coach is an important coach, what it takes to be a coach. If you.
- [51:30]
Leslie Heaney
Right.
- [51:31]
Trudy Cox
If you have a coach of your own along with four horses, you probably have 12 horses. And you've got to really practice a lot to be a good driver, a good wit. It's a beautiful, beautiful weekend. So we've got a lot of things going on this summer. I'm very excited about it. Coaching Ball is. Is that Saturday night is that weekend. I hope you'll come.
- [51:52]
Leslie Heaney
I'm hoping to actually. What are the dates, Trudy? For listeners of Coaching Weekend, remind me. I know it's second weekend. People want to come visit.
- [52:01]
Trudy Cox
I'm going to take a quick look at my calendar because I should know this. It starts on the 15th of August, Friday the 15th through the 17th, and the coaching ball is on the 16th.
- [52:13]
Leslie Heaney
So thanks to the Preservation Society and to you and all of your efforts, you know, these houses are maintained and people get a glimpse into what that lifestyle was like in that period of American history. But what is next for the Preservation Society? Do you have any sort of wish lists or goals or expanding any kind of programming or anything else people should be looking out for?
- [52:33]
Trudy Cox
That is such a good question. So one of the things we have had painful discussions about the fact that in America, history is not taught terribly well, and it is not the subject that most young people are embracing, that they can't wait to go to their history class. So we have the obligation, Leslie, of making history interesting and making it memorable. And one of the things, whether we like it or not, we are all addicted to our iPhones. Yeah, we were addicted to technology. So we are going through this very hard process of how to reimagine future tours. What will future tours look like? And we're making the argument that tours of houses in the future aren't going to be. And on your right, you have. The vase. Comes from Europe in 1822, and it was designed by such and such a person. People don't take that in. It's not the way they remember or learn or even are having a lot of fun. So we're working with a company called Digital Kitchen in Canada that is helping us put interventions, if you will, or activations in different rooms throughout the Elms, so that when you walk in.
- [53:43]
Leslie Heaney
So it's sort of interactive and interactive, immersive.
- [53:47]
Trudy Cox
So you'll walk into the ballroom of the Elms and you will be surrounded by music and you will hear. You walk around. This is just an idea. It's not necessarily. But you walk around the room and you hear. You're at a party and you hear a group of people gossiping about, but it will be history facts, right? Gossiping about. Mr. Berwin, did you know that he spent $40 million to build this house? Or you know, that sort of thing where you might walk into the conservatory and be hit with a. The aromas of flowers that are grown in Newport that you walk in, you see a lady's dress form transformed into a glittering gown right in front of you. This is very experimental. It's very expensive. And no one anywhere in the nation is doing it at a historic house. They're doing it at museums, but not at a historic house. In a historic. We're different because we have stuff in every room. In a museum, you can make the walls white. In our places, you got furniture that's very interesting.
- [54:55]
Leslie Heaney
I was going to say, I mean that with AI the way that it's advancing, I mean, you might be able to walk in the ballroom, hear the music and see people actually spinning around.
- [55:05]
Trudy Cox
Absolutely. Absolutely.
- [55:07]
Leslie Heaney
I'm sure it's sort of evolving every minute.
- [55:10]
Trudy Cox
It is evolving. So I think if we are successful in pulling this off and we have a lot of conversations about it because of the cost and because if you're too far out in front, you, you know, you might be too far out in front.
- [55:23]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [55:24]
Trudy Cox
And you will carry with you what we call a digital companion. So when you're walking through the house, you will be urged to look at your iPhone and learn more about. You happen to be standing in front of a painting that's by Baldini, and Baldini was one of the great portraits is of the time. And so you will be able to learn at your own pace. And I think if we're successful at this, it will really be groundbreaking. But I have to tell you, it's.
- [55:56]
Leslie Heaney
Hard, but it's exciting. Trudy and I, I mean, your commitment and your board's commitment and the community's commitment to the Preservation Society and this history and these houses is just so tremendous. And, and thank goodness, truly, that you all are, are doing this important work because you're keeping.
- [56:14]
Trudy Cox
And you've helped us appreciate that too.
- [56:16]
Leslie Heaney
Please, I'm.
- [56:18]
Trudy Cox
You are a great help in, in organizing one. It's the big event of every summer, so you don't have strong people like you helping us out. We would never have be able to pull it off. So I thank you too.
- [56:30]
Leslie Heaney
Well, Trudy, you're sweet. And I, I, I mean, I can't tell you how much I appreciate Trudy's very busy schedule because right now it's design weeks going on in Newport and yep, there's all these things happening. So I really appreciate you taking the time because I do really think, or I know that this time period is really very fascinating to people, as you know, as we can tell by the success of that show. And you're keeping that world alive for everyone to learn from and enjoy and all of the history of Newport, as you just pointed out. So thank you so much, Trudy. I'm so happy to see you, but I really appreciate it.
- [57:05]
Trudy Cox
Thanks so much Leslie.
- [57:07]
Leslie Heaney
That brings us to the end of this episode of the interview. A huge thank you to Trudy Cox for taking the time to join for this great conversation about Newport and the Gilded Age. Really learn so much from Trudy and really appreciate all that Trudy does with her work with the Preservation Society and preserving these wonderful homes and this important piece of American history. So thank you so much Trudy. Thank you too to our sponsor 10 Mile Distillery. Don't forget to visit them at www.10mile distillery.com. that's www.10mile distillery.Com and don't forget to use the promo code the interview at checkout for 10% off their award winning whiskey Little Rest Whiskey. So 10 Mile Distillery. Visit them and buy some whiskey in time for fourth of July weekend. You will not be disappointed. And thank you too to our listeners. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate or review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We release a new episode each Wednesday, so until next Wednesday, this is Leslie and thanks for joining the interview.