Loading summary
Transcript127 lines
- [00:05]
Leslie Heaney
Today I'm so thrilled to share my conversation with author, activist and storyteller Susan Liu. Susan's work has captivated audiences nationwide. Her award winning solo show, 140lbs How Beauty Killed My Mother, evolved into her debut memoir called the Manicurist's Daughter. This memoir was released to rave reviews. It was Apple's book of the month and was featured in the New York Times and npr, among others. Through her storytelling, Susan really explores deeply themes of grief, intergenerational trauma, identity, and resilience. In this episode, Susan and I talk about the manicurist daughter. We delve into her family's incredible journey from Vietnamese refugees to American business owners. And we discuss the challenges of confronting her mother's death from a botched tummy tuck when she was just 11. And we also explore kind of the broader implications of societal pressures on women, especially immigrant women. Susan's quest to uncover truths about her family really led to her uncovering truths about herself. Her story is one of strength and vulnerability and empowerment, but it's also equally parts poignant and funny and inspirational. I think this is a conversation that you will not want to miss. Susan, it's a real delight to have you here today. I'm so excited to talk to you about your incredible memoir, the Manicurist's Daughter. Let's talk about it. So this is a memoir focusing on your life as the daughter of a Vietnamese immigrant. Well, both of your parents were Vietnamese immigrants. And then the experience that you had at 11, losing your mother. Without giving away the whole book, how would you describe your story?
- [01:55]
Susan Liu
Yeah, this is a daughter's quest to know her mother when no one else will talk about her. My mom died from a botched tummy tuck when I was 11 years old and she was 38. And for the next two decades to this day, my family has never talked about her ever again. And so before I could become a mom, I needed to know her. So I tracked down the plastic surgeon and his family, enlisted the help of spirit channelers, read thousands of pages of depositions, went back to Vietnam several times, and every time I learned something new, I put it on stage in a one woman show which I eventually toured around the country during my second trimester.
- [02:32]
Leslie Heaney
As you go through the book, you sort of describe your experience as being a young daughter, right, A young girl kind of spending a lot of time in your parents manicurist shop. And you spent a lot of time in the shop with your aunts and your father was there. And then you had this experience. And as you mentioned, you know, nobody in your family really would talk to you about what happened to your mom. And then as you became a young woman, you sort of. You were almost like an investigator. Right. Looking into everything.
- [03:01]
Susan Liu
Yeah.
- [03:02]
Leslie Heaney
But then you channeled all this whole experience into this incredible creative process by doing a one woman show. It's a really compelling process. Coming to learn about your mother and working through grief.
- [03:15]
Susan Liu
Yeah. I mean, for all the listeners out there, I have an mba, not an mfa, so I was definitely not trained to be a theater actor or to be a writer. Right. And I always think I really want to stress to people. Like, I always felt like I was too late. You know, there was a part of me that always wanted to perform. And I described myself as a failed standup comic. Where I was, I was doing this thing. And within six months, I was headlining at the Purple Onion. I was at Caroline's on Broadway. There was so much momentum. I get heckled really badly and to the point where I'm whispering my jokes on stage, I walk off, I'm humiliated. And there's a part of me that feels so broken where I'm kind of like, wow, how do you tell your kid, be what you want in life if you did it yourself, you know? And so for me to come back to this stage and to come back as a. A creative has been full circle for me to, to really face my own fears on what, what am I meant to do? And do I even allow myself to do it?
- [04:24]
Leslie Heaney
But you did. And I think that's such an inspiration for people listening. And as an. An example, because there's one point in the book where your husband, you. You said, I'm quitting my consulting job. I'm going to pursue this. I'm going to do this one woman show about my mother, about this investigation, about my experience. And he was not totally jazzed about this idea. And I think you two shook on it and said, you're like, give me a year, give me a year. Or tell us about that.
- [04:52]
Susan Liu
Yeah, I mean, I had at that point, I'd done like three small shows, got super hyper local press grants of like $500. Like, it wasn't like I was making a living off of this, but I felt that there was momentum here. I felt so energized when I was on stage. And then I also, let's be clear, was fired from my consulting job. So I was at a crossroads, right? Like, keep applying to jobs that maximize income. Like, what's the thing is that that's going to pay me the Most, I have a mortgage, I have loans. Or what would it look like if I went full Monty on this? Like, what would that really look like? And so I met him in business school. So we were looking at numbers, and he was like, okay, well, this is how much you need to make, right? Cause we just bought a house. He's like, so how are you going to do this? And I said, all right, I'm going to start a nonprofit consulting firm myself. I'm going to have my own clients so I can get some cash on the side, but give them the expectation that I've got this show in February, and then I'm going to taper down, I'll taper back up, and if they're down for that, let's do it. And so I'm actually doing that. And then I'm trying to produce a show and find designers in Seattle and find a new director. And then I'm sitting there going like, how do I make this happen? How do I sell out a show? So then my MBA brain turns on. I'm like, oh, I need corporate sponsorship. I need fiscal sponsorship from a nonprofit to get donations. I need to activate all the community organizations that are related to body beauty and grief. You know, like, let's do this. And most artists in Seattle, or most artists in general, are not thinking about all the different left brain components of, well, you're putting on a show how to get. Maximize butts and seats, right?
- [06:31]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [06:32]
Susan Liu
And so for me, it was finally this moment, this nexus. I was at the nexus of all the things I was good at. Being a creative, being an entrepreneur. Right. And. And also for me, at my cores, social justice. Like, I want to talk about mental health. I want to talk about PTSD from immigrant journeys. I want to talk about unresolved grief. I want to talk about body image issues. I wanted so much. And finally I was at a point in my life where I could do all those things.
- [07:01]
Leslie Heaney
But the underlying, you know, thing that allowed you to do that was your own courage. Right. Your willingness to take that. That risk. And I love that you bringing all those skills to bear, because here you're someone. You went to Harvard, right? Then you went to Yale business school. And in your journey. And maybe it's not fair for me to say this, but I think when you got into Harvard, you were kind of like, dad, look, I got into Harvard, and your whole family, sort of like there was a quest, and we can all kind of relate to this, I think. Sort of like parents. Look at me. Give me some positive Feedback. And that wasn't happening. And at some point you're like, you know, I'm actually going to be pursuing something for myself.
- [07:41]
Susan Liu
Yeah. My father and I were oceans apart. Like, he grew up in the Mekong Delta, a rural one dirt road town, didn't finish ninth grade. And then here I am in America and I'm like, hey, B.A. i'm going to do community service and student government. And he thought I was the most disobedient person in the world. And when I had gotten the email that I got into Harvard, I called him. He was at the nail salon and I told him that. And his first line was, but why didn't he get into Stanford?
- [08:10]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [08:11]
Susan Liu
And it was crushing. I think he didn't know what Harvard was, number one. And number two, I mean, later on as an adult, maybe I'm like, oh, maybe he didn't want me to be far away. But that's not. He wasn't able to communicate that. Right. It was more like again, a disappointment, you know. So I think growing up as a child of refugees, there's so much pressure to always obey your elders and to get their approval. And because I was this rebellious kid who went to. Moved across the country to go to Harvard and always was following this inner intuition that I had that in itself was so Western, you know, to like have it I statements or passion. Like, really, it was like, why are you not focusing on financial stability? Like, try to get the most high paying job, which is being an I banker or a consultant at the time, you know, and, and so my dad and I were always butting heads. And I gotta tell you, you know, I, I've lived with two decades being silent about my mom, and then it's like, what did that get me? You know, that default world of like, okay, I'm doing everything to please the family and yet I feel bitterly empty. There's a gaping hole in me and it leads me to joining a cult at Harvard. Right. It leads me to dysfunctional relationships where really we're always butting heads against our trauma and it just comes out in really terrible ways, like even as much as we want to avoid it. And so I think with the show and the book, I came to a point where it's like, I need closure for me. You're never going to give it to me. And now it's just bursting out of me where I'm like, all right, you're not gonna talk, Let me bring it to the stage and talk.
- [09:59]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, but that, I mean, here you are, you, you Know, as you said, you were kind of. You did sort of do what was expected of you by your father for so long. And then at some point, you're like, I actually have to pursue this for myself. And your family, not just your father, but your siblings were like, oh, this is all about Susan. She's doing this. It's all about Susan. But you still kept going, right? You still kept going, and you had, obviously, the support of your husband. And then they sort of came around in the end, which is also a great lesson, right, for listeners. Like, sort of when you hit that resistance of you're pursuing something for yourself, you're pursuing your passion, and maybe financially it was a risk, obviously, for you, but you figured it out, and you're getting some pushback from your family and some people around you. In the end, when you kept going, they then began to understand your process, and they understand why you needed to do this show and why you needed to write your memoir. And. And I think we are proud of you for doing it.
- [11:00]
Susan Liu
I mean, that's generous. Let's be real.
- [11:02]
Leslie Heaney
I was gonna say, am I going too far with Greg?
- [11:04]
Susan Liu
Said the P word, baby. Look, I. I gotta tell you.
- [11:09]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [11:09]
Susan Liu
That the big turn happened with supernatural energy. And I had just done, I think, my second show. And all along, you know, I. There was a point where my brother was like, you're exploiting my story. One of my brothers. And I was like, oh, my God, am I. Is he right? Is he right?
- [11:30]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [11:31]
Susan Liu
And if he is right, I should stop. And so I. I had flew back down to San Francisco to retrace my mom's last day, where I left our childhood home. I drove to the plastic surgery clinic. Like, I touched the same door she touched. Like I wanted to. Like, I'm really trying to go back to the scene of the crime here, right? And then I get a phone call that this woman named psychic Cindy is available to meet me. And she's my aunt's nail salon customer for 20 years. And she also has these amazing powers, and she was unavailable, but all of a sudden she was available. I go meet her the next day and. And I verify to make sure my mom's on the other side, because it's easy to be manipulated by mediums, right? Like, do you love me and miss me? Yes, I do. You know, Like, I verified that it was my mom by asking very specific questions that only she would know. And then I asked my mom. I was like, do you want me to stop? I mean, I can stop. You know, I don't I don't want to drag your story around if you're, like, rolling around in your grave on this. And she was like, this is not about you. This is about the work we need to do. We're healers. We're doing work. This is about everyone else. It's about us, but it also is about everyone else.
- [12:51]
Leslie Heaney
Right. Everyone else that's coming to watch your show.
- [12:54]
Susan Liu
Right. Because, I mean, I call it therapeutic theater. Like, I'm this, like, standup who's, like, kind of inching my way into theater. And it's. It's funny, and it's sad, and it's honest, but the laughter keeps you there. Keeps you there to go through those waves of emotion. So psychic Cindy records this whole thing. I give it to my sister. She listens to it. She shares it with my brothers and my dad, because I also ask her for business advice for each of their businesses. And then my sister comes to me.
- [13:23]
Leslie Heaney
That was smart, by the way. She knew. She listened to the recording.
- [13:25]
Susan Liu
Oh, yeah.
- [13:26]
Leslie Heaney
Well, I mean, you know, I have siblings, too. I appreciate the, you know, you being creative about that.
- [13:34]
Susan Liu
Well, I mean, we're part of this collective, you know, and if mom's there, like, we're gonna want advice. Like, growing up, we were always lighting Inc. And talking to our ancestors and asking them for help. You know, as a little kid, I was, like, asking them for, like, straight A's and, like, fruit snacks from Safeway. But like, even still, like, our relationship with our ancestors have always been alive. And it was just a very interesting thing that I could never talk and communicate with the most important ancestor. Right. Which is my mom.
- [14:02]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [14:03]
Susan Liu
So anyways, my sister listens to this, and then she's like, oh, it's not about you. I'm like, yeah, dude, it's not. She comes to the next show, she sees what it's about. Right. Like, this one was about body image. And when you walk in on the projection screen is just a giant image of me squeezing my belly fat. It's just my belly fat on screen, you know? And it's like, let's talk about body.
- [14:30]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [14:31]
Susan Liu
So then the show's over, and what happens, that always happens, is people line up.
- [14:37]
Leslie Heaney
Yep.
- [14:38]
Susan Liu
And it's like a funeral, and it's like a wedding, and it's confession time. And people are telling me what I activated in them, what they haven't admitted to their family, what they're going through. They just want a hug. There's crying, there's laughter. There's a cathartic Release. And my sister's like, oh, didn't expect this. And I was like, yeah, me neither.
- [15:01]
Leslie Heaney
Well, by you healing yourself, I mean, you're healing others, as your mother said. Right. I mean, this is. That's the work that you're doing by doing the show and by writing the memoir.
- [15:11]
Susan Liu
Yeah. And so I've seen a turn. I've seen a turn with my siblings. Eventually, my one brother and one sister, Winnie and King come to the premiere of 140lbs How Beauty Killed My Mother, the one I took on tour. And they come on stage afterwards and do a public Q and A with me. And it's the first conversation we've ever had about our mother. And it's not really about how they are doing. It's more about their reaction to what I'm doing. But even still, it's something a little bit closer. Right. Like it's something. There's an opening there. And since then, they've been very supportive of the book. They've come to other events where they come on stage and they talk about the work that I'm doing, not about how they feel. And I see them folding in the memory of my mother, our mother, in more beautiful ways, like having an altar in their kitchen so that they light incense to her and their kids have a relationship to her. Right. Or with my sister. And I have a chocolate company. And I see my sister folding in more Vietnamese inspired flavors into the chocolate as an homage to my mother.
- [16:22]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. Well, I think they had a similar reaction as others that have gone to see your show. Right. In that talk back, you know, they, your brother and your sister, both were able to share things about their experience or their memories with your mother that you had never heard before.
- [16:39]
Susan Liu
Right, Right.
- [16:41]
Leslie Heaney
So tell us, you talked about, like, your experience as being, you know, the child of Vietnamese refugees. And when I was reading the book, I thought, gosh, I don't think many people understand the journeys that people go through to come to the United States. Will you talk a little bit about your parents and what they did in that experience? And, you know, I just was just, you know, how brave your parents were and then how brave they were once they got here to kind of be able to put the pieces together and build a business and build a family. I mean, it's really extraordinary.
- [17:14]
Susan Liu
Yeah. So it's 1975, Vietnam War, Saigon has fallen. And now there's this exodus of people where they're trying to get out because they can't make a living here. They're going to be in immense Poverty, people are disappearing into labor camps and never coming back. Like there's so much uncertainty that's happening. My mom is married to my father. There's. And they have two kids. Right. And so my mom's looking at this being like, oh my God, like what's the future of our family? But the thing is both of them didn't finish ninth grade. They're poor, they don't have any money. How are they going to afford the ticket so that they can have a one way ticket to try to escape out on a boat and be out in the open sea and hope that they land on some other land? Right. So what my mom does is starts an underground lottery operation.
- [18:06]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, I mean she's really, she was pretty major.
- [18:09]
Susan Liu
But I don't know, my aunt would also like after school, run out and dash around and try to get people to buy tickets. My mom wins at her game three times, hits the jackpot and has enough money, enough bars of gold to get these four one way tickets. And so you're waiting for a signal to figure out is this the night that we're going to go run through the jungle in the middle of the night, try to go on a dinghy boat to get to another boat and then hopefully depart. Five failed attempts.
- [18:39]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [18:39]
Susan Liu
Many times that they're discovered. She has to run back. Her and my dad have to separate. She has to hold both of the boys on her hips and run. Because if a man is caught then he's definitely going to prison. Right. But if the woman is caught, it's just different. So she's now with the two kids like they're getting sick, drinking random water. Like it's, it's, she's lost, it's, it's a mess. Sixth attempt. They can leave now. When you're on the open waters, the Thai pirates could come and rape you, rob all your things, kill you. You could run out of water. People on the boats are stealing each other's water, right?
- [19:18]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [19:19]
Susan Liu
You could capsize, boats could come by and actually just not help you. So you had a 50% chance of survival. Everyone knew it and it was still worth the risk to try to leave. They made it to a Malaysian refugee camp. They were there for two years and found out that they would be able to go to America. Not everyone was so lucky. Some people were deported back to Vietnam and then they would commit suicide. Because if they went back to Vietnam and they were an escapee, who knows what would happen to them. Right. Or what kind of life would they go back to or maybe they've already lost most of their family in that. In that boat right over. We come to America in 1981. We live in my aunt's basement for a little bit. Then we're in subsidized housing. My mom's a seamstress. My dad's a newspaper boy. They're trying to learn English. I'm born. So now there's four kids. Oh, yeah. My sister was born in the Malaysian refugee camp.
- [20:10]
Leslie Heaney
The camp. And you're the. Obviously, you're the first American born child of your parents, right? So they named you Susan. You're the only one who has. Right? Your name is entirely.
- [20:21]
Susan Liu
Yeah, it's always been like, so what's your Vietnamese name? And I'm like, I don't have one. Right. And there's a part of the book where I'm trying to unpack. Like, why wouldn't they give me one? But I kind of see it at this balance. Right. Like Susan. And we have Liu, and it's this union. Right. It's my multi hyphen identity as being Vietnamese and American. And I also just. I've got USA in the middle of my name, baby, you know, I know.
- [20:44]
Leslie Heaney
I love that. When I read that, I'm like, is it. It is. There is USA And Susan. That's so clever.
- [20:52]
Susan Liu
And then my mom is like, okay, if we don't get off welfare, we can't sponsor over her. Her parents and her three sisters who are not married. Right. Mind you, there's like 10 other siblings in Vietnam that are just, like, waiting for remittances they couldn't escape, you know, and now they're just waiting on their one sibling. Right? And she was the 10th in line to support them during this huge period of uncertainty. So there's this weight on my mom's shoulders, and she. She tries to go to beauty school to do hair, realizes the money's in nails. My dad starts a gardening business, just observing other immigrants, other mexic immigrants doing their thing. He. He takes one of their flyers and then just like, puts our home phone number on top and his name of his business and just photocopies it and starts throwing it out there on. On people's yards. Like, it's like they are just trying to make it. And then within eight years, we have a nail salon and we buy our first house in America.
- [21:53]
Leslie Heaney
Speaking of strong and inspirational women, this week's episode is brought to you by the Scout guide. Back in 2014, a very good friend of mine and mother of three, Susie Mathison, along with her business partner, Christy Ford, saw how big box stores and online shopping behemoths were suffocating their local businesses in Charlottesville, Virginia. And they wanted to find out a way to spotlight the amazing entrepreneurs in their community through a beautiful local guidebook. So from that, the Scout Guide was born. And the Scout Guide has gone on to build a network of over 90 women owned franchises from coast to coast. These are franchises that are run by extraordinary women who are building their own businesses while supporting the small businesses in their local cities and towns. The Scout Guide is always looking though to expand their franchise family to find other women who are interested in building their own businesses. So if you're a woman who's looking to get back to work, but you want to have your own schedule or you're ready for a career shift and you have some, let's say, marketing or sales experience and you're interested in supporting your local stores and local businesses, the Scout Guide franchise is just the opportunity you are looking for. I happen to look at the 90 different locations the Scout Guide currently covers and there are several locations that I know a lot of my listeners are from that are not covered. So there's a lot of great opportunities out there. And if you're interested in learning more about the Scout Guide, you can go to their website, franchise.thescoutguide.com or you can email them at franchisethescoutguide.com to find out more. And when you do, don't forget to mention the interview with Leslie Heaney. So you were part of that. You would go to the nail salon after school and you were there on weekends. And women were your mother being sort of the main leader of the bunch. But there were all of these incredible female figures right in your life. And then your mother dies and your aunts and your father kind of go in different directions. And you are kind of, it seems, looking for a female role model or female figure right through your, your teen years and college. And you talked a little bit about the cult at Harvard, but I, there was a period where you were looking, looking for that, right. Because you had those strong female influences in your life.
- [24:22]
Susan Liu
It was my junior year and it's like 2020 is hindsight. Right. Like, I could tell you really rationally what happened. I didn't feel like I belonged in my family. I found a sense of belonging in this yoga cult. Yeah, I saw this flyer. It was like free yoga class at Harvard Divinity School. I was like, oh, what's this? It's free because, you know, yoga at the time was like $15 a class. And that just like too much. I was a scholarship student. I didn't have a lot of money. My dad wasn't. He would give me a little bit money per month. But I, I mean I was, I was essentially paying for everything else at college. And I go to this class and I feel like, really, I can finally feel my body, you know, Like I can finally be in it for so long. I felt like my body was communal property to my family. And they would always be like, you're so fat. Like, if you get too fat, no one's gonna love you. Like I. And even though my mom died from a botched tummy tuck, I was, it was food and body was just so confusing to me, right? Like, it was like, hey, eat, I made you something. You like, keep eating even if you're too full. Cuz you shouldn't waste food because we have trauma from the war. Right? Like, and it's so. I. I had a very fraught relationship with my body where I tried to diet, tried to lose weight, tried to get the approval. My family couldn't get it. I had freshman 20, the weight gain. But here, finally, in this beautiful moment in this yoga class, I could just feel my body, hear it. I felt connected. I felt more grounded and centered with me than I ever did before. I started going to more classes and then eventually I met this teacher. Her name is Michelle Nim in the book. And she would like, after class she would just feed me this Korean food in the back. It's funny because she's white, but she had this kind of like funny Korean accent, the way she would talk. And I was like, huh? And then they had these weekend workshops.
- [26:14]
Leslie Heaney
Do you think that was part of the cults?
- [26:16]
Susan Liu
Oh, yeah.
- [26:17]
Leslie Heaney
Was she trying to. Yeah.
- [26:18]
Susan Liu
Oh, I mean, all of the. They called them Sabanims or masters. The teachers, they. They all kind of had this interesting Korean intonation with their English because. Because the other Korean teachers would do that. And it just became a very sing song melody. But also it's very strange cause they are white, right?
- [26:33]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [26:34]
Susan Liu
So I started staying there after class. She invited me to more workshops and I started getting involved with the college arm called Yeehaw Young Earth Human Alliance. And I went to Sedona to their retreat center. And I was getting in deep, but I just loved it because I felt like she was just listening to, to me and holding space for me and allowing me to have emotions. The very thing I couldn't have at home. And. Yeah. And so I committed a lot of money there. And then I. And. And I actually, I had. I was going to write my senior thesis in Vietnam on a public health issue. And they were like, why don't you write your senior thesis on us? And I said, okay. And so it was like the mind body connection and leadership development. And so I spent even more time with them, and I got sucked in real good.
- [27:26]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. And your friends were sort of like, you know, Susan, this is a sort of. We're trying to flag it for you, but you were finding such comfort in what you're teaching there and the yoga experience there. You know, something that you were just saying before, you know, part of this journey for you was trying to reconcile in your mind how your mother came to make the decision to have plastic surgery or the shame around her, or shame, from I think, your family's perspective, or maybe even your own, of her losing her life while she was having a tummy tuck. But at the same time, I think through this journey of you kind of retracing her steps and coming to know her more, you shared a lot in common in that, you know, you were talking about how your family would. You know, there was just, like, two mixed messages, right? About, like, eat, eat, eat. And then, you know, kind of making comments about your body. And then within the Vietnamese community, there was that TV show, Paris by Night. Paris by Night, where people would come and, you know, the performers would. I guess the ad was about plastic surgery. And your mother found that plastic surgeon who, we should mention, you know, should not have been practicing because he had, you know, he was being investigated and, you know, for. Or I guess was. Was he suspended? I guess he wasn't because he was practicing, but he had pending.
- [28:48]
Susan Liu
He was on probation. He had 23 lawsuits against him. He didn't have malpractice insurance. But turns out when you're on probation, you don't have to tell your patients you are on probation, and you can do all the same procedures. So when she was watching Paris by Night, I mean, the main sponsor was BA&Fuch. And you'd see this, like, past beauty pageant winner wearing this, like, sleek bathing suit with, like, nylon stockings underneath, like, by the poolside. And it was just like, this is a beautiful woman. And I think it was just fed into us all the time that if you look amazing in our traditional Vietnamese ao dai, like, that's. You have value. Your body is your worthiness. And so I think my mom ingested that content along with other women. And she found an ad in our local Penny weekly newspaper that is served to the Vietnamese community of this doctor, Dr. Leslie Moglen, and. And he had some goodwill around him. He said he was in Vietnam during the Vietnam War, used to help with surgery there, and that when he came back to the base.
- [29:51]
Leslie Heaney
By the way, is that true? I know you mentioned that. That he actually did do that, or he just had said that he was.
- [29:55]
Susan Liu
No, he did do that.
- [29:56]
Leslie Heaney
Okay.
- [29:56]
Susan Liu
He was in Central region in. And he used to do some surgery there of people on the battlefield. And so he came back and he said, hey, anyone in the Bay Area, if you have any deformities from the war, I will help you for free. And it was. There was this article, I think, in the Tenderloin Times or something. And also San Francisco examiner did an article on him. And he had this goodwill in the Vietnamese community that he seemed like a good white doctor. No one ever went to him for this free surgery. But he had this foothold in our community. 30% of his clientele was Vietnamese refugees. He actively advertised to us, and so there was trust there. You don't think that if someone has their doors open that you're actually walking into danger.
- [30:44]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. What was also so shocking, you know, about what happened? And you learned this as you were reading through the depositions? They waited a bit to call 911, right? They waited, yeah.
- [30:57]
Susan Liu
So 14 minutes into the surgery, she loses oxygen to her brain. And typically, after four minutes without oxygen, you have permanent brain damage. So he tries to resuscitate her, tries all these different ways, and then finally they call 911, and two minutes later, the paramedics come, and turns out the hospital they take her to, and I find this out when I retrace. Her last day is two blocks away.
- [31:23]
Leslie Heaney
Right, right, right. But now, I mean. I mean, I guess I'm 50, and I just was having lunch with some friends yesterday, and people are, you know, as you get older, you're sort of like, gosh, I have to have my eyes done. Look at my double chin. You know, this is all we're talking about. And I. It's not uncommon for people to want to look good or feel if that makes them feel good, you know, to do that. I haven't yet, but it's not who just say it's on the table after. You know, I do enough of these YouTubes. I keep, like, gosh, my chin. You know, there's all these things as you. So I think your mom was just, you know, as you mentioned, like, there were all of these different messages being sent to her and other Vietnamese women in the community. And it seemed like this was a reputable person to go to. And she was, you know. And she had done it before, right? She had done it before, which you also learned. And so it's just. Anyway, it's a very tragic event. But I think for you, as you were later kind of grappling with your own, you know, body image, with kind of the mixed messages within your own family, and I think you sort of came to sort of maybe understand a bit more where she. What her experience was like.
- [32:38]
Susan Liu
Yeah. I mean, I gotta tell you, sometimes I catch my own double chin in the mirror. I'm like, ooh, it's happening. You know, And I. And I notice and I look, oh, Susan, you're young.
- [32:48]
Leslie Heaney
Just wait. Just wait.
- [32:50]
Susan Liu
39.
- [32:51]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. 45 is like driving your car into a brick wall, going, 65.
- [32:56]
Susan Liu
Oh, my God.
- [32:56]
Leslie Heaney
Okay. I mean.
- [32:57]
Susan Liu
Yeah. Well, I gotta say something that I have been developing sympathy for my mother. And part of this is she was raising four kids. She was working seven days a week, sitting in a nail salon chair. It's not like she got time for Pilates. Right. She didn't have time for herself in the. In the. On the Sundays when we'd open, three hours later, it was still family time. Right. And. And so now looking back on it, I see, like, she was doing everything for the family all the time. She wanted something for herself.
- [33:34]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. This was something that she wanted to do for herself.
- [33:37]
Susan Liu
It was her shortcut, really, and it was her gift to her. And now that I've had a kiddo, my pelvic floor doctor, she was just like, you have no core. You need to build a core. You know, And. And I. I have the time to exercise, and it's still so hard. And I only have one kid and not four, and I'm so much more privileged and I have so much more resources than my. When I was a young kid, you know? And even still then I'm, like, so exhausted, and I still look at my pooch, and I still kind of squeeze my fat, being like, man, if only I could get a shortcut. And so now I can really relate to that. And. Because once you become a mom, you do become a little invisible in our society. You're tired. You're. Everything is about your kid. Right. And it's just like, I get it now.
- [34:26]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. And she was 38, right?
- [34:28]
Susan Liu
She was 38.
- [34:29]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. So you're her age. So you. You had this incredible. You did this incredible show, which was sold out. And critically acclaimed. And then you decided, why did you decide then to write the book? And what was that like being, you know, here you are, consultant, mba. Tell us about, you know, your decision to do that and what, what was that writing process like for you?
- [34:51]
Susan Liu
Yeah, I feel like I've gotten the golden ticket. Because if I look back now and realize how, how unlikely all of this was, I don't know if I really would have ever ventured into this space, right? So to produce my 10 city national tour and sell out most of those shows and get great press from LA times, like it's kind of crazy because it's. I'm a nobody, you know, and to get programmed in different venues, it takes like two years, you know, you've got to like have some type of credibility. I didn't. So I just decided to produce it myself and hopefully someone would show up. And little did I know that at the New York premiere, my future literary agent would be sitting in the audience. Because only now I talk to other authors and they're querying 50 to 100 agents, never getting any response back with their brilliant book idea. And here my agent, she could feel the story, she saw the proof of concept, she saw the line after the show, she viscerally could feel the work. And then she asked me if I wanted representation. So in a way I kind of jumped the line, right? Because it's not like I was like trying to publish in small outlets and kind of get known through my writing. Like here I'm just a storyteller, multi hyphenate, right. Like I haven't been trying to toil away as a writer for a long time. She asked if I want representation. We work on the book proposal after I give birth. I gave birth. March 2020, everyone.
- [36:28]
Leslie Heaney
I mean, yeah, talk about, you know, swaddling at home alone. I mean that was, you know.
- [36:33]
Susan Liu
Right.
- [36:33]
Leslie Heaney
And your whole family was supposed to be there, right. So I don't want to get you off track to help. And nobody could because of COVID Yeah, nobody could.
- [36:40]
Susan Liu
Yeah. My mother in law lives in Canada and at the time the borders were closed and that was a big hit of grief. The second time really noticing my mom not being there, right. Like when I really wanted her to be. But I worked on the book proposal, got four offers, went with Celadon McMillan who has been terrific. My editor actually edited Pachinko. Her name is Deb Futter. She's amazing and she believed in my work.
- [37:06]
Leslie Heaney
How long did it take you to write it?
- [37:08]
Susan Liu
That's a funny question from Contract date to when she greenlit it and said, by George, you did it. And I was like, who says by George anymore? That was a two year process. Okay, okay. But when you think about how did I even come to know all the information? Right. When my family wouldn't talk. Every draft of my play, I would say there's five drafts to each play, 140 pounds with the fifth draft. Right. The draft of my book itself was eight drafts. Like there's so many. So much revving I had to do to get to the essence and the core and the right details too. So we could say since 2018 to 2023, it's maybe a five year process for me to really understand the story and learn all the information. Or you could say, oh yeah, you got the deal. And then we went into hardline editing after two years, you know, but the thing is, is I'm trying to write a story about something I've been shamed and silenced into.
- [38:08]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, when you're reading the book, it just flows so well and it's just such. I think you're just a really talented writer and you really bring the reader in. It is chronological in some ways, but you also go back, you know, you go back in time where there's something that you said or an experience that you had. Then you'll go back and explain a meal you had or, you know, something that kind of puts some more context into what's happening in the current time. And I didn't think about the fact that you were like probably in real time continuing the investigation. Right. Talking to your siblings, maybe reading the depositions. You know, it flows in such a way that it's not clear that you're kind of going through that process. But I mean, what a process. I mean, you really did some incredible deep dives. And for everyone who's listening, who I hope will run out and buy the book after this, it's just so fascinating and really incredible how you diligent you were, or interested you were and kind of really putting yourself in your mother's shoes and understanding from going to Vietnam to understand where she came from and to meet relatives there, to, as you mentioned earlier, kind of actually going through her last day and going to the office and all of that. I mean. And did you find that experience, I mean, it must have been also very cathartic for you in a way, kind of really getting to know your mother. Cause I think as children, so many of us, I know that you don't really. Or I don't feel like I truly, really know my parents as a people. I knew them as parents, but not as humans.
- [39:39]
Susan Liu
Peers, like else. Fully formed human beings that just don't center you. Right. Like.
- [39:45]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [39:46]
Susan Liu
Do we know them through their insecurities? Right. Do we know them through their. Their deepest fears? And that's what I try to probe at in when I list a hundred questions I would ask my mom during the second show I did. You know, it was just like, there's still so much I crave to know. And it's just so unfortunate that my father can't speak to that. Right. Because it's so triggering for him. And so I had to paint a portrait of her by piecing together all these different jigsaw puzzle pieces. And there's still empty spots, you know, there's still emptiness there, but at least now it's more fully formed than when we never talked about her.
- [40:26]
Leslie Heaney
But you have the realization in the book that here you are asking all these questions of your mother, who's no longer here, really striving to try to get to know her, but yet the irony is your father is here and he's alive, and you're not going through that same process with him. And we all do that. Right. It's sort of like, you know, while the person is here, we don't always take the time or just we always think they're going to be here. Right. That there will be a time where one day you can really ask those questions or really get to know other parts of who they are. Our parents I'm talking about mostly. And so tell us about when you wrote that. I got. Gosh, that's so powerful. Like, you know, your dad is here, and yet, you know, just sort of to say to you that even though your mom isn't here and you want to ask those questions, if she were here, you probably wouldn't ask them, right? Yeah, I mean, I don't.
- [41:20]
Susan Liu
As I said earlier, there's this boundary between young child and elder. Right. And you don't cross it. You can't cross it. And I've tried. I've tried with my father to get to know him. Talk about your childhood, talk about all these things. And here's what I'm faced with. Unprocessed, ptsd, stigmatized mental health. Like to talk about your emotions. To be vulnerable is a sign of weakness. It's also this individualism. It is. And I describe this near the end of the book as perhaps he doesn't have the tools and capacity to unleash those emotions because he doesn't know what's gonna happen to him if he does.
- [42:03]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [42:04]
Susan Liu
It's his own form of protection, and he's gone through so much trauma in his own life. And I can always invite, I can offer, but really, all of this is a very Western thing for me to ask him all these things. Most of his generation are like, mum's a word on this. Unless they are literally about to die. And maybe they'll say a couple of things, right? Because then they're. All of a sudden, it's like, oh, who will remember me? What will they remember me by?
- [42:35]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [42:36]
Susan Liu
So I think he was able to share some stories when I was like, bah, I'm doing this show or I'm doing this book, and this is. This is the time to get the story straight. So is there anything else you want to say? Or. Here's a very specific softball question that I'm going to lob on over, and maybe you're going to give me a new detail that I don't know yet. Right. But I. It's unfortunate, you know, because I want to know him in a deeper way, and I. I tried my best to get what I could and also put it in the book because honestly, this is how all of you know, all my siblings, kids, this is what they're going to really remember and know of him. Right? Because there's a language barrier now. There's. There's so much that he'll never open up to, but I want him to also be remembered like my mother, you know, and. And I want him. I. I'm trying to present him as the most complex person possible with compassion.
- [43:36]
Leslie Heaney
Well, he is, you know, he is someone who, as you said, has had great trauma in his life, yet he's come to, you know, he came to the United States. He built this business with your mom and this family, and not only is he Vietnamese, he's Vietnamese American, but he had a different upbringing than. Than you did. You're like. As you were explaining, like, here I'm asking Western questions of him, and he's from a different generation than we are. So how is this, you know, this experience of going through, producing the show, creating the show and writing the book and this just getting to know your mother informed your own parenting.
- [44:14]
Susan Liu
Yeah, I'm really big on the F word in the family feelings.
- [44:20]
Leslie Heaney
I was like, oh, me too.
- [44:22]
Susan Liu
Oh, that one. No, I mean, I feel like growing up, it was the only time anyone would use the F word. It'd be like, I feel like you're dumb. Right. It wasn't. I feel disappointed. I feel minimized. I feel sad. You know, it was. It was to create distance, and it was to create a power dynamic and to have control. Right. Because our lives were so chaotic and they needed everything to be in control in the house. And so for my son, who's four and a half, named him Art. I made art.
- [44:51]
Leslie Heaney
I know. I love that.
- [44:53]
Susan Liu
Everyone's always like, is it Arthur? Is it short? And I was like, no. Just like the concept, guys, just is that I allow him to have feelings.
- [45:02]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [45:03]
Susan Liu
I sit with them, allow it, feel it out. And then when he's regulated. Okay, let's figure out a solution. What do you want to do about it? Great. Right? Like, it's. For me, I think I've been where it's a pendulum swing every generation. Right. And I was so denied emotions and I so made to feel shame to even have them that I want to allow them for him. Because if you deny them, they're going to go somewhere else. Right. Like, it's still going to be lodged in your body. You're still going to. I don't want to pay for his therapy when he's older. You know, maybe therapy is inevitable for everyone, but I'm trying to create a human being that is aware of how he feels and knows how to ask for what he wants. Because I think I was so disempowered for so long around that. So that's one part of my parenting. The second part is just around food and body, feeling connected to your body, knowing when you're full, not creating all this baggage around guilt, around not eating at all, or. You asked for this. Well, now you have to finish it because kids are starving. You know, like.
- [46:09]
Leslie Heaney
Right. Yeah.
- [46:10]
Susan Liu
I want him to have a relationship with his body. I want him to know when he's full. I want him to know when it doesn't feel good. Right. Like, for me, I didn't. I lost that sense of knowing because I deferred it to my elders, because that's what I was supposed. Supposed to do. And I've been trying to unlearn that for decades. I eat out of fear. I eat out of anxiety. I emotionally eat. I'm just like. I just want him to have a relationship with his own body.
- [46:41]
Leslie Heaney
So what, is there a message that you hope that readers will take away from the book and from your experience?
- [46:47]
Susan Liu
Yeah. I want people to live like they're mortal. I think so often we're gonna put something off. We're gonna deal with it later. We're gonna have that conversation, you know, like, on my mother's last day, I ran into her in the kitchen. I was gonna go to volleyball tryouts. She was gonna go do her plastic surgery. Both of us were holding that in secret. I fessed up to her. Where I was going, I wasn't allowed to go. We didn't have money for the uniforms, she said. And then I told her I hated her.
- [47:22]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [47:23]
Susan Liu
And I slammed the door on her. And I was like, I'll show you. And that was the last thing I ever said to my mom. I could never tell my siblings that because we could never talk about my mom. I shouldered that. I felt like an awful daughter. And that's one of my biggest regrets in life. And so for those that are living in your life, are there conversations that you need to complete before it's too late? Is there something that is pulling to you that you must do, that is your shadow work that is eating at you, that you know you have a calling for, but you're too afraid to because you think you've got time?
- [48:07]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [48:07]
Susan Liu
And here's the sad thing, baby. It doesn't matter how rich or poor you are, how educated you are, how successful you are, your time's gonna be up. And for everyone, it's not. When it's a perfect 100, you're not gonna die in your sleep surrounded by the people you love. Right. I read the obituaries a bit in the New York Times, and I'm always fascinated by extremely successful people who die in their 40s and 50s.
- [48:33]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah.
- [48:34]
Susan Liu
You know? Cause I'm like, you think you've got time, and you don't. You don't. My mom died when she was 38. So the question is, is what is it that is in front of you that is dying for oxygen, that needs that nourishment that is asking and begging for you? And maybe that desire never goes away. Maybe the voice of it lowers, but there's still something in your life that is calling to you. And the question is, is when are you gonna give it oxygen? So I want people to live like they're mortal because you don't know when your time is up. So live like you're mortal.
- [49:21]
Leslie Heaney
I love that. The last thing I wanted to ask you was sort of, what's next for you? And one thing I wanted to suggest to you, not that I'm your editor or your manager, but.
- [49:30]
Susan Liu
But if you were.
- [49:31]
Leslie Heaney
But if I were. I mean, your message and your life experience is such an incredible example for people to do Just that. Right. You're an example of someone who pursued this thing that you had that was in front of you that you felt compelled to do. And you wanted to share your experience, you wanted to create art, and you took that risk and you did it. And not only did it fulfill you in so many different ways, but it helped kind of reconnect you to your family. I mean, it's just such a powerful thing that you did. And so maybe getting out on the speaking circuit. Let's get you doing a TED Talk, Susan. Or I don't know what's next, but you tell me what's next for you or what are you thinking about? What projects are you working on?
- [50:15]
Susan Liu
Yeah, I did do a TEDx talk, but it's X. It was called how to make peace with your belly fat. How my ancestors slapped me around in a sweat lodge. So that sets online. You're right. I missed the stage. I am represented by a speaker's bureau and I, I love to inspire, I love to engage, I love to make people laugh, I love to make people cry. And so, yes, I 2025, I'm focused on being on the speaker circuit and going back to living like you're mortal. I still have this calling for stand up comedy.
- [50:50]
Leslie Heaney
You should.
- [50:51]
Susan Liu
And so I've been, I've been writing.
- [50:54]
Leslie Heaney
Oh, stop it.
- [50:55]
Susan Liu
I've been, I mean, I've been. Been writing a show. I've been watching other comics. And when I watch other comics, it's, it's such a craft workshop for me because I'm just watching everything that they're doing. Like, I'm trying to laugh at the jokes, but really I'm just studying and I feel this, like, even me telling you this, I feel so much fear. Like, I feel the adrenaline just like pumping up in my body because there's something at stake, you know, like, there's something there for me. And so I really want to talk about body stuff and middle age, mundane marriage, and how my relationship with my body has changed after motherhood. So there's that. If I were to tell you my big, hairy, audacious goals, it's. I want to be in film and tv and I've got five TV show concepts. And I'm sitting there going like, I don't know how I'm gonna do this, but I know I'm supposed to. And so that's kind of like my 5 to 10 year goal is like, I, I see the uncertainty there, I see the, the mushiness of it, and I don't know how but just like the theater, I didn't know how. With the book, I didn't know how. And then eventually, you know, it's just one step in front of the other. And I. And I really encourage people, what's your 2 degree turn that you can do today to move this Titanic ship? You know what I mean? Like, what's like one small action that you can experiment with today to tickle that fantasy and then to get more information with that small action and then perpetuate and propulse you to the next step. Right? So. So that's my. My huge unknown is like, I. I want to be able to reach audiences across different mediums. Right? Because I think as a society, we're so siloed. Right. I only go to improv comedy. I only watch indie film. I only read, you know, romance novels. And it's like, actually I want to reach. I want to connect deeply with the human experience on the spectrum of joy and tragedy. Right. And I want to do that across all mediums. So that's my big dream. I don't know how, but that's where I know.
- [53:17]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah. I mean, reading your book and seeing what you've done, I know with you pursuing it, Susan, you're gonna get there. And I love what you were talking about. Sort of it fills you with fear. And I was gonna say, whenever you're filled with fear, you know you're onto something. You know you're onto something. I can't tell you how much I enjoyed reading your book. I can't wait to see what's next. I have some ideas. I'll email you. I mean, I think you should do a comedy about your family.
- [53:46]
Susan Liu
Like a TV show comedy?
- [53:48]
Leslie Heaney
Yeah, like, about the salon. And like, you have to make it funny. I mean, it doesn't, but like. Or, I mean, all those experienced people coming into the salon, I mean, there's so much there. And then you're going home and your father doing karaoke on Sunday morning. I mean, there's just. There's a lot. So anyway, let's talk offline. I've got some ideas for you, but it was such a pleasure to have you. It's just great to see you. And thanks so much for. For being on.
- [54:13]
Susan Liu
Thank you. I so appreciate it.
- [54:16]
Leslie Heaney
That brings us to the end of this episode of the interview. A huge thank you again to Susan Liu for joining. And as always, thank you all again for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We release a new episode every Wednesday. So until next Wednesday, this is Leslie. And thank you for joining the interview.