← Duologue with Leslie Heaney
Duologue with Leslie Heaney
The Puberty Talk: What Every Parent Actually Needs to Know with Dr. Cara Natterson & Vanessa Curl Bennett
01:06:22
If there was ever an episode to send to every parent you know, this is it. I sat down with Dr. Cara Natterson — pediatrician and author — and Vanessa Curl Bennett, and we went there. All the way there. Breast buds, NARBs, vaginal discharge (yes, we s...
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- [00:03]
A
Hey, everyone.
- [00:04]
B
Welcome back to Duologue. I'm Leslie Heaney and I have to tell you, this is one of those episodes that I was pretty sure was going to be good going into it, but it was even better than I thought it would be. Today I'm sitting down with Dr. Cara Natterson and Vanessa Kroll Bennett, who are the authors of a book called this Is so Awkward, Modern Puberty Explained, which is, I think the most accurate title of anything I've read in the last several years on this subject. And it's certainly a very apt title for this episode. Kara is a pediatric and Vanessa is an educator, and together they've spent years doing the work to help us raise our kids through puberty by actually talking with our kids about it or getting us to talk with our kids about it. And their recommendations are approachable and relatable and most importantly, hilarious. They do it all with such humor. And as the mother of two teenage boys and a 20 year old daughter, I thought I had a handle on all this and I was sort of out of the woods, but I left this conversation with a list of things that I want to go back and do and say and talk to them about. So whether your kids are 8 or 18, whether you're in the thick of it or you've got the teenage years ahead of you, this is really an episode that you're going to get a lot of, I think. So with that, here is Dr. Cara Natterson and Vanessa Kroll Bennett. Well, I'm so, so excited to have Vanessa Kroll Bennett and Dr. Kara Natterson. I'm going to call Dr. Nattersen, Kara. For the purposes of this conversation, listeners, because we're tight. We've only been on for 32nd. We have a great report. We gotta just dive in right there with Kara. But I'm so, so happy to have you both on. There's a lot to cover as the mother of two teenage boys, and many of my listeners have teens that are going through what you two know so much about, which is the awkward phase of puberty. So thank you both so much for being on.
- [01:56]
A
Thrilled to be here.
- [01:58]
B
All right, Kara, Vanessa, let's sort of dive deep in the way. I love the way you organize this book because you start with kind of doing the science background on everything and then you kind of take us, people in our 40s and 50s who have teens into sort of a brief flashback of what it's like today compared to what it was like for us 20, 30, 40 years ago. And then you get some really kind of detailed feedback on how we can broach some of these conversations, these awkward conversations with our kids. And then one of the things I particularly love about your book is that at the end of that part of the chapter, you ask like a 20 something or late teen kind of what they wanted to hear from their parents or how they process those experiences, which I thought was so great, first of all, just knowing as parents of teens that they are going to come out on the other side. Right?
- [02:50]
C
Yeah. I mean, thank you for. Thanks for walking through that. Because I will say that there are many legs to this stool and together they hold it up. So you got to have science, right? You just have to have facts, and then you have to have perspective. You have to be able to understand how it's different from what you went through and how that experience you had informs how you feel about it. Right. Because there's a whole emotional. Vanessa will get into that because this is my favorite soapboxes that she climbs up on is how to take your baggage, acknowledge it, own it, move on. But there's. So there's that sort of past perspective. And then there's like, what the heck do I do when I'm in it with my kid? How do I talk to my kid? How do I engage with kids in a meaningful way? And then like the fourth leg is I'm not a kid. But there are ones who have been through it recently, millions of them, and they have a lot to say. And so I think each of these feels equally valid. And as Vanessa and I have continued to do this work over the years, it's so funny how we ping pong very evenly among these four pillars, because they are. They're pillars.
- [04:09]
B
Well, one of the things that I think was so terrific about giving the science the beginning, as you're saying, and having that pillar, is that God forbid you get a question from your child about what's really happening with their bodies, right. You're equipped to answer it. It's like giving you sort of the little encyclopedia that, you know, doesn't exist anymore either, but, you know, that sort of summary of what's happening with them right at the start. So I did think some of the science is really interesting for people to understand when their daughter could be, you know, sort of close to getting her period. And that's breast buds, Right. Should we start with the breast buds or any other indicators that it could be, you know, forthcoming?
- [04:51]
A
Yeah, I mean, so the, the first sign of puberty, physical sign of puberty in a Girl are breast buds. And breast buds are those little sensitive and you know, nipples get a little bit enlarged, but underneath that there's sort of a nub. Underneath that is excruciatingly sensitive. And as we like to say, those suckers poke out of anything. Like you could be wearing a down coat and like you can see breast buds. So there's no hiding them. The entire world knows that a kid is starting puberty when they see those breast buds. And sometimes they happen on both sides, sometimes they happen on one side, and then that side disappears and they show up on the other side and that disappears. And that's a result of estrogen starting to circulate in the body and brain of a developing kid. And it used to be, Leslie, like when we were growing up and going through puberty that a kid would have breast buds, you know, and the average age of the onset of puberty was like around 11, 11 for girls. And like you get breast buds and then probably like maybe a couple years later, you know, about 12 and a half was the average age for a girl to get her first period. Except now the average age of onset is like two to three years earlier. So it's like between eight and nine for that first physical sign of breast spunning. But here's what's interesting. A first period has only moved about three to six months earlier. So it's still around 12 years old. And so you've got like maybe potentially four years of breast budding and breast development. And estrogen also causes the hips to widen and for new curves to show up and you know, other physical changes. And then a first period is actually a middle marker of girls puberty. It's not the beginning, it's not the end, it's the middle. And then a period is likely to show up. But that's after all these physical changes have been happening for a lot longer than they were when we were maturing and going through puberty.
- [07:09]
C
Yeah, and, and I'll, I'll chime in and add that parents probably the most. Oh, no problem. The most common question we get is, so when is it going to happen? Like how do I know, right? How can I not be on a plane and have my husband on bed rest when it's all going down? And the answer is no one's got a crystal ball. No one knows. But there are some things you can look for that will give you hints that it may be around the corner. So first of all, breast budding, almost all girls who get a period have breast development. It's extraordinarily uncommon for girls to get periods without breast development because it's the same hormones that cause breasts to start to grow as it is the hormones that cycle to begin a period. But the one sort of sneaky indicator that most people don't know to look for is vaginal discharge. So vaginal discharge is the sort of mucusy liquid that comes out of the vagina that looks like, as Vanessa so elegantly describes, raw egg white. And that's exactly what it looks like. It's like, bingo. Yep. And when kids start getting this pretty much every day and they have that happen over several weeks or a few months, that's a pretty good indicator that your body is getting ready to have a period. So you may have breast development and no vaginal discharge. And you may see, I mean, there are all sorts of other things that happen during puberty, but those are kind of like the first stake in the ground and then the thing to pay attention to. And it's once that vaginal discharge is regular, then it's like, okay, it might be go time.
- [08:58]
B
I mean, how would you. It was hard enough for me to even admit to my mother that I got my period. The idea of sitting down and getting, having the egg white conversation is a, is a tough, tough. So I'm going to, Vanessa, I'm going to turn to you to ask you,
- [09:16]
A
like, I'm going to help you out here, Leslie, I'm going to help you out here because I almost said to Cara, car, do me a favor, just give Leslie a little bit of warning that you're about to utter the words vaginal discharge.
- [09:27]
C
Like a trigger warning. A discharge warning.
- [09:29]
A
A discharge warning. That's a good pun. That's a very good pun. Because if you say to a room full of 40 or 50 year old women the phrase vaginal discharge, people either want to get up and leave or crawl under their chairs, right? We did not grow up with people using that phrase out loud. Like, it, it, you can see people's faces go white when we say this to an audience or, you know, a room full of folks in a workshop. But here's the thing, Leslie. When you tell an 8 or 9 or 10 year old girl like, oh, if you notice there's some white stuff in your underwear and when it dries, it kind of looks like a little bit chalky, that's actually called vaginal discharge. And that's how your body cleans itself. That's how your vagina cleans itself. It's actually really amazing. It like takes Good care of itself all on its own. Own. Do you know what the girls say? They're like, oh, that's what that is. I was wondering. They're not ashamed, they're not embarrassed, they're not uncomfortable, they're curious, they're open minded. It's like if we start talking about this stuff, even if we're like have a little bit of vomit at our own throats, that we can't believe we're talking about this aloud. That we're saying these phrases aloud. The kids, if you catch it them early enough before the cynicism sets in.
- [10:51]
B
Yeah.
- [10:52]
A
They're like, oh cool, okay, great, thanks for telling me. And that's it.
- [10:56]
B
This is our baggage. This is, this is an example of my own.
- [10:59]
A
Exactly, exactly.
- [11:01]
B
Okay, so we should sort of. That would be a good for. For people that have daughters in that you're saying, even around 8 or 9, if you're seeing the bud, then you have the. Is the breast bud the tip off that maybe you want to have the conversation about?
- [11:16]
C
What I would say about the breast budding piece is most kids get a breast bud and either the kids or the parents freak out because most breast buds show up on one side first. They don't typically show up at exactly the same time. And we live in a culture that's highly aware of breast cancer. And what is the sort of phrase that you hear in terms of breast cancer? It's do a self breast exam and find a lump. Oh, you've got a lump. Right. And so parents panic or kids panic because it's a lump on one side. And I will add that boys, about 50% of boys get breast buds as well, which is something no one talks about. But they have estrogen, the hormone that is in charge of telling breast tissue to grow. Just like girls have testosterone, boys have estrogen and their breast tissue responds to that estrogen. And that is a different kind of panic. So I love the idea. Like Vanessa says, you can acknowledge what is like vaginal discharge and what it looks like in underpants or you can acknowledge what will be right. Like, hey, you might notice that you get a little lump under your nipple and it's a little tender. No biggie. You just talk to me when it happens. We could talk. It's just something that is going to happen with your body and it's expected. We don't love the word normal, although you can use it. But like it's expected. It's something that happens. It happens. Around this age, there's lots of language to use.
- [12:53]
B
And with the breast buds with boys, is that an indicator of that they might then have. We're going to get into, I mean this is, you're going to, you see all my baggage on display. I'm looking for another acronym for the, the, the, you know that the nar, which is the I think often random boner or something. We're going to get to that one. You had a great acronym for that. I have a note, I'm going to look and see what it means. But is that an indicator for boys that they might then start having wet dreams or is that just. They're just working out estrogen and displaying it that way?
- [13:29]
A
So it's. A lot of people don't actually realize this, but all bodies have all of the sex hormones that are in the body a little bit before anyone ever hits puberty. And then each body, if you have ovaries, you're going to start producing a lot of estrogen and progesterone. And if you have testicles, ultimately you'll. The testicles are testosterone making factories. But everybody has some of all the hormones. And so boys have some estrogen and boys also have some breast tissue. And so boys who are carrying more weight during puberty, their bodies do what's called peripheral fat conversion. And peripheral fat conversion can turn hormones, other hormones into estrogen. And so what you can see is a little bit of breast development. 50% of boys in puberty will have some amount of breast development. It might look more like a breast bud, you know, the sort of puffier nipple with a little something underneath it. They might have even more breast development. Typically, typically, not always, that will resolve over time. But that's estrogen working on a boy's body. When they carry more weight, that estrogen can actually be higher in relationship to the testosterone in their bodies, which actually delays their puberty a bit. Because you need the testosterone to be the delta between testosterone and estrogen to be bigger. In order for a boy's body to go into puberty. Right. The testosterone has to have kind of more power for lack of a better.
- [15:15]
C
Yeah, it's like a seesaw. And the test you. If you have equal amounts of testosterone and estrogen, the seesaw is pretty balanced. But once you have more testosterone and it weighs down one side, Vanessa's see sawing with her head. What you weigh down one side, then the testosterone's impact outweighs the estrogen's impact. And that's exactly. I mean, Vanessa's nailed it. You know, I know we said at the top it's Dr. Karen Adderson. But I confer the doctor degree upon Vanessa Kroll Bennett who has so mastered this world.
- [15:48]
A
Yes, only because I've been sitting listening to you for five years. It's not a talent, it's just that the only talent is sitting next to you. But you know, Leslie, it's something we talk about because a lot of parents and a lot of kids freak out about it and nobody talks about the breast development in boys and it can feel very shameful to and we just want to reassure everyone that it is part of the hormone stew happening in kids bodies and it's really typical. But like this, like anything else that's happening that people are concerned about, don't worry alone, don't worry in silence, like go see your healthcare provider because they will provide their own wonderful explanation about what's happening and at the very least they can reassure you and your kid. And then it might be a little unexpected and that might be partially because you didn't grow up hearing about it or learning about it. Not that it never happened, it just wasn't spoken about.
- [16:45]
B
Well, I decided for this conversation that I was going to say I have a friend who, because my kids will murder me if they do.
- [16:53]
A
We do that all the time.
- [16:55]
B
I, but I have a friend whose child said, mom, I have man boobs. Like his big joke is like I have man boobs and now is, you know, moving through and is older and it's the man boobs are, are going away. So that seesaw car you're talking about, it's identical.
- [17:13]
A
Exactly.
- [17:14]
B
One of the things you talk about in the book is how to have the conversation when your daughter has breast buds. Because as you mentioned, Vanessa, they, you know, you can see them through a wall. You can see them through a, you
- [17:25]
A
know, suit of armor. Yes.
- [17:29]
B
So how do we talk to them about bras and kind of introducing bras to them again. Another one which was thank God I had an older sister because at least I could I borrowed some torn hand me down before I finally figured out how to get it on my own racy somewhere. But if you are going to talk to your parent about it, if they're present and going or the parent wants to, you want to sort of get ahead of it. How do you. What's the best way to do that?
- [17:54]
C
Well, I mean, I think that's a complicated conversation too because it's really hard to talk about bras without making someone feel a little bit embarrassed or ashamed. Right. It's like you need a bra really do I does anyone need a bra? The truth is, if you actually look at the way cultures approach the bra situation across the globe, you don't need a bra. And there's a lot of debate about breast tissue and whether it does better being supported with a bra or being left unsupported. I mean, there's a whole world of debate around that way.
- [18:30]
B
As a sidebar, I feel like now with, with a 52 year old pair, I, I'm looking back like I knew I should have worn a better bra. I mean, I feel like, you know,
- [18:40]
C
no, there's data that shows that there is no difference. There's literally data. I mean, everyone's lived experience is different. And you know, I have my own opinion based on my n of 1 myself and I like to exercise and do cardio and I. There's a whole world that is unimaginable without a bra. But there's a whole group of people across the globe who don't buy into this and they're like living their best life. And when you actually look at what the breast tissue itself does, it's super interesting actually, this whole debate because it just. Breasts change shape over time and it's not, there's not a direct correlation between yes, you wore a quote, good bra and you, your, your boobs stayed perky. I mean, there's just not that. Right.
- [19:26]
A
Gravity is gonna, gravity.
- [19:28]
C
You just, you got. My husband's a cardiologist and when we were dating home one day and he said, I had a 95 year old patient who was amazing. I said, okay, you know, I'm going to listen to your chest now. And she said, let me untuck my breast from my pantyhose.
- [19:42]
B
And I was like, okay, that is
- [19:43]
C
the greatest thing ever. But you know, what I will say about bra is that it's like every other conversation around puberty, which is the goal is not to sort of tell a kid what they have to do in order to look a certain way. It's really to meet a kid where they are and to understand and what might be shaping their decision tree. So as Vanessa described, breast buds are exquisitely tender. I mean, if a T shirt rubs up against them, sometimes it's painful or sensitive. If an elbow knocks against them, forget about it. And when they are held a little bit closer to the body or when there's an extra layer between the breast bud and whatever you're wearing, it can feel more comfortable. And so our advice is, you know, engage in conversation. This is all conversations, right? So engage in conversation. It's not a one off, it's a many time conversation. But the starter conversations really should be around if they want to find something that makes them feel a little bit better. Don't bind. You don't want to bind growing breasts because growing breasts that are pushing against really tight fabric, that is going to change the way breast tissue grows. And I for one have a theory that has never been proven by data, but I know it's going to end up being true, which is that if you look at this epidemic that we have of dense breast tissue and cystic breast tissue, I think that is largely a result of breasts needing to push against really tight compression over time. Not entirely, but there's a huge, huge uptick in the number of women with dense breasts. And it makes a lot of sense. If you've got a lot of downward pressure pushing against breast tissue, you're going to have to grow differently to push back. So that remains to be seen. But you know, we can talk in 10 years when that data comes out.
- [21:39]
A
And I think, Leslie, it's like there are also kids who want to wear a bra who don't need a bra because they want to fit in. So there's both sides of the conversation. And you know, you look at a kid, I mean, we can all remember that stage, and it's like the kid who needed a bra, who didn't wear one and everybody commented, or the kid who wore a bra and the other kids would go around snapping those bras because that was the first kid to wear a bra. So we bring all that baggage into these conversations with kids. And so Kara's whole approach, like, hey, here are some options. Let's figure out what feels comfortable for you. Let's buy a few things, let's try some stuff on you tell me what feels comfortable. It brings none of that judgment into it. It brings none of our adolescent baggage into it. And it's just like, I'm chill, I'm curious, I'm giving you options. And by the way, if you have the kid who's the late bloomer and everyone else is wearing a bra and they're not, who cares? Let them wear a bra. Like, there's no harm to let them wear one of these little, you know, cam tops, whatever it is, the one time, and I will say this from personal experience, the one time I said to my kid, you need to put something on is when she had a white soccer jersey and it was very sheer and you could see the outline of her breast buds in the white soccer jersey. And I said, hey, kiddo, like, your body is private to you. And the way the soccer jersey now looks it, it doesn't allow you to be private in the way I want you to be private about your body. So let's find something for you to wear under your. It could have been an undershirt, it could have been a camisole, it could have been a tank top, whatever. But it was about her privacy and her safety by keeping her body safe. So that was the one. Other people have talked to us about school uniforms that have very sheer white kind of midi blouses. Right. So that's another example of one where honestly, it's really about privacy and safety. In which I think I was actually more forthright about saying, we need to find a solution, let's find something together. As opposed to like, hey, what do you think? How do you feel? I was more directive on that front.
- [23:56]
B
And how did she receive that? Probably really well, because it wasn't, she
- [24:00]
A
was like, oh, all right. Like it wasn't, I wasn't judging her. And it wasn't, it was basically an opportunity to actually convey a sense of bodily autonomy and to like, do a little bit of a lesson about how your body is private to you and you get to decide who sees what on your body. And so she felt okay with it. Like, she wasn't psyched. She wanted to just wear her jersey and not have an extra thing. But I, I, I did use it as a chance, as sort of a lesson on that broader topic.
- [24:33]
C
I think some parents who are listening have daughters who, they are nodding yes, yes, yes, right. Because that's a very, what Vanessa's describing is a very common experience, but who also then have kids who have evolved into teenagers that want to show it all. And that is how they are expressing themselves. And Vanessa writes very beautifully about it. This is a series of conversations. It is not a one up. It is sort of when they are younger, coming in and telling them what feels safe and right. And then when they are older, engaging in a lot of back and forth about what feels safe and right.
- [25:15]
B
So let's talk about, I mean, that is kind of jumping ahead, meaning jumping sort of. You know, we're kind of in the breastfed scene now. We're going to the 16 year old, let's say 15 year old, who's, and I forget who I was listening to speak, who said for young girls, sometimes they're, they're dressing that way sometimes to feel like grown up, not it's to them, they're not, it's not, they're not trying to sexualize them. There's nothing about it that's, you know, other than their sort of want to feel like a grown up or dress up. So how do you, if your daughter's wearing a skirt that barely covers her bad cheeks. Yeah, yeah. Both of her private areas, front and back. If you've got like, you know, a see through shirt and you know, maybe someone's pushing back on, on wearing something underneath, how do you navigate that?
- [26:09]
A
I mean, this is, I think, one of the trickiest conversations to have with kids in this generation because we're both encouraging them to feel agency and bodily autonomy. And you know, many of them will say, well, you want me to be empowered? Like I'm empowered by getting to choose what I wear. Which is, which is fair enough. I set certain rules in my household. Everybody's going to choose to set rules or not set rules about, like what you can wear to school, what you can wear out to dinner with your grandparents, what you like. That may all be different from what you wear when you go out with your friends at night. But I also think it's our responsibility to prepare them for how the world may treat them or react to them. Not because it's right, but because we understand how our culture works. So for instance, you may have a 12 or 13 year old who's very developed, who's choosing clothing that's available to her out in the world, which, let's be honest, is often doesn't cover all that much of her body. Right? That's the style. And she might look 17. And she's done nothing wrong by developing. She's done nothing wrong by seeing what's out in the culture and choosing to dress according to the fashion. But she might also walk down the street and have people say things to her that are shocking, offensive, scary.
- [27:40]
B
Right?
- [27:40]
A
And so, you know, if you have your parameters and she's dressing within those parameters, you also kind of want to prepare and say, hey kiddo. The world may look at you and assume that you're older and people like, not everybody's like us. People may say things to you and I just want to prepare you for that. Let's talk through what you can do or how you can respond if someone says something sexual to you or suggestive to you or talks to you like you're a college kid, not an 8th grader, right? So like doing some of that sort of forward planning, not putting it on her, not shaming her, not making it like it's her fault, but also preparing her for the fact that when you're out in the world that people don't know she's or God forbid, I mean, hopefully they don't know she's 13 and they're saying stuff to her, but they may think she's older and she has to start to build the language and the tools on how to respond or not respond in order to keep herself safe.
- [28:45]
B
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- [30:38]
A
Totally.
- [30:39]
C
Everyone's favorite role playing, right?
- [30:43]
B
Exactly. There's the with your child kind. No, there's. Anyway, but I, you know, for my friend, you know, my, My friend, my example, that's not my family. If you have a child who's. Who has, let's say, bigger breasts, for example, but all their friends wear this cute kind of halter top and they can get away with it. Or a bikini, you know, a string bikini. That's. And it wasn't until my friend's child came to me and said. And said, you know, I. I love this bathing suit, but I feel like. And actually it was an adult who said something to this child like, oh, I really like your bathing suit, which she found, you know, and it was totally inappropriate. But, you know, when you. Very ick. But when you have. Anyway, when it's. It's. It's tough to navigate. And so having those conversations where you sort of say, hey, this might be sort of what they're perceiving, that you're older than you are, that sort of thing. Let's see if we can find something where you feel comfortable so you're not in that position. Position. Not that it's right to your point. Not that, you know, anybody should ever be saying that to any teenager, no matter if they're 18 or 14.
- [31:59]
C
But I might offer a second way through, because some kids respond by saying, what makes you think I'm not comfortable? Which takes. Right. And then the conversation takes a turn that you weren't intending. It works for some kids really beautifully, but for others, you might want to go about it and just say sort of in the vein that Vanessa was describing. You know, your. Your brain is not ready to make the decisions that the world is going to ask you to make when you're 16 and 17 and 18. And so I want to make sure that we can help you present to the world a self that's not asked to make those kinds of decisions. And your body happens to look more mature or curvier or whatever it is than someone else's. And it just is what it is. Like, I love your body. You've got a great body, but it's a body that's going to attract a certain type of attention. And one day you're going to be able to handle all the things that come at you on account of that. But today at age. Fill in the blank. I think it's a lot to ask of you. So let's find something that doesn't suggest that you're a whole lot older than you are or doesn't draw a lot of Attention to your body for this pool party or for this thing. And as you get older, we'll have lots of conversations about it. It's sort of like when Vanessa and I talk about drugs and alcohol. We talk about it as a. It's not a never, it's a not now. Right. Alcohol is legal for people over the age of 21. Our, our pitch to kids is don't drink now. Your brain is developing, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So delay, delay, delay. That is the pitch. So if a 12 year old says, I'm not going to drink, and they delay until they're 14 or 16, they've got years more of healthy brain development with no alcohol swung around in there. That's a benefit. And I think all of these things, all of these things fit into that category. Right. But how do we do it in a way that makes kids feel beautiful, confident, all those things. Right.
- [34:14]
B
Yeah. And I also think, Vanessa, you were just saying, I, you know, at least in my own experience, kind of picking your, picking your battles. Meaning, you know, when we go to dinner with the grandparents or when you go to church or if you're going to wherever. Like my, in our family, the expectations are you're gonna wear something that covers your stomach or what, whatever the rules are when you're hanging out with your friends or you're at home or you can, you have more freedom to wear what you want. So giving them an outlet.
- [34:47]
A
Yeah. Like, my rule is, and that my kids rule is, you know, at their school, no crop tops. Like, you're not wearing a crop top out to dinner with us. You're not wearing crop top to school when you go to a concert. Sure, that's, that's fine. Like, I think understanding how one approaches different situations and contexts is a life skill far beyond what clothing you put on. Like, it's great for kids to build the awareness that in different settings, different things are expected and required of them. And I think having them build that ability and that awareness is fabulous. Right. Like, like how you speak to people, what note you write afterwards. So it's not just how you dress. It's a million little things of building emotional intelligence. And so this can actually be seen in that context as opposed to policing what someone else is wearing. I mean, in short, it's reading the room. And in a, you know, in a broader context, it's actually like a wonderful skill for them to build in a whole host of ways.
- [35:53]
B
Yeah. And I love you sort of putting it that way, because if you're Putting it into a broader context of sort of, you know, them understanding that as part of just what they're going to be experiencing in life outside of just what they're wearing to something. Right. Sort of how you interact with the world is really important. All right. I'm. I'm very mindful of our time. I'm looking at. We've got. I mean, I, I feel like again, we should, we should be going on a retreat. We've got so much here. But I want to do like sort of, maybe not totally rapid fire, but let's do it.
- [36:24]
C
Let's go. Rapid fire. We're obviously really good at that.
- [36:27]
B
Okay, so boys, Boys, we talked about the breast buds. You know, I don't think that's necessarily correlated directly like it is with, with girls for their maturation. But discussing around wet dreams, erections and tucking it at 12 o' clock for the NARB, by the way, I think those are important. I mean, I could get into some stories that would make your hair curl when people do not have a plan for the. The narb. And I think the NARB stands for not. Wait, I. Not what? You fill it in. Remind me, Vanessa. Cara, what is the narb? It's Random boner. But the. Not.
- [37:07]
A
Not. It's not. Not expected, not anticipated. Random boner.
- [37:13]
B
Okay. The norm.
- [37:14]
A
It's. It's a, it's an acronym for spontaneous erection. But kids respond better to NARB than spontaneous erection. Just like they talk about wet dreams instead of nocturnal emissions.
- [37:27]
C
I mean, maybe in your house
- [37:32]
B
is NAR. They would. My 14 year old and my 17 year old know what an art is
- [37:37]
A
that a. I mean, we learned about NARB from the young men who wrote for our, for our book and that it's in one of the. One of the essays. And then we sort of worked it into the more formal part of the book because one of the things that people don't realize or don't take into account is that, you know, boys have their own complicated, hard. Sorry for the pun.
- [38:07]
C
So something I would have said. Go on, Vanessa.
- [38:09]
A
You know, wonderful, fun, challenging, difficult, confusing journey through puberty. And it's so funny, Leslie, like when you tell someone you're writing a book about puberty, they'll. They'll say to you, oh, it's a book about girls, right? And we're like, yeah, because men spring from the earth fully formed. No, it's a book about all kids because they all go through puberty. And so boys. Puberty gets kind of left out in the cold. It gets Treated like a punchline and a joke. And in truth, they deserve all the science, they deserve all the guidance, they deserve all the emotional opportunity and honesty about how they feel and what they think. And if we only treat their puberty as a punchline, we really rob them of the full spectrum of the emotional journey of going through this stage of life. And you, when we speak to a room full of middle schoolers or high schools. High schoolers. And we say that to them, Leslie, the room goes silent. These boys are nodding along. It's like they feel seen because they feel like all they're allowed to do is joke about their puberty. They're only allowed to, like, joke about boners and masturbation and wet dreams, when, in fact, they have, like, a massive universe of physical and emotional experiences that they want to. Want people to talk to them about, even if they act like they don't. And I. You're going to have listeners saying, oh, my kid doesn't want to talk to me. Okay, well, you talk to them. You give them a little information. You let them know you're there for any questions. You tell them that if they have things they're wondering or worrying about, you are available to find resources for them. You tell them that, like, you hope that they find love and respect and connection as they grow older and, like, care about people. Right. You have the same kinds of conversations with your boys as you do with your girls. And that includes teaching them about their bodies and their spontaneous erections and their wet dreams. Even if, again, no one talked to you about it or no one talked to your husband about it. Like, everybody deserves these conversations because it makes it less confusing and less scary and less overwhelming.
- [40:30]
B
Yeah, no, that makes great sense. And so your husband, so. Or you, I guess you pick which parent you think might be more comfortable having the conversation.
- [40:38]
C
Yeah, I mean, I'm just gonna rapid fire answer that and say, everyone can talk about everything. You don't have to share the parts. So I like how you framed that. Pick whoever is more comfortable. But if you're not comfortable, give it a try.
- [40:51]
B
Okay? Oh, I'm definitely not comfortable, Cara, I can tell you.
- [40:56]
A
But you're brave. I can tell that you're brave.
- [40:59]
B
I am unwilling to go out there, so to speak. But I did say to my husband, when our older son, who's now 17, went to boarding school, I'm like, you've talked to him, right? You gave him condoms, you talked to him. He's like, no, I just put. I told him. I'm like, you have to have a conversation with him about. And by the way, we'll talk about this, I hope, a little bit later. Not that we have all day to have this conversation, but about sort of consent for boys and the importance of that. And those conversations, I think is so important as we get to, you know, hopefully the sex. The sex conversation. But. Okay, so we should. Dads or moms, whoever's comfortable, have the conversation about the narbs and how you handle a narb, which I think strategically tucking in at 12 o' clock is a. Is a good tip for them.
- [41:48]
A
No pun intended.
- [41:49]
B
Friend's son. Friend's son came up to a table in his bathing suit to say hello to everybody and was just walking over. All of us were. I mean, this poor kid. I mean, I would have just waved and gone to hide, you know, in a parking lot. This kid came. I don't. He must have known it was happening. Maybe he thought it was tucked. No one's recovered. No one has recovered from this just because we, you know, it was just. Anyway, the poor thing. So, yes, I think this is important. They need to have. They need to have a strategy for when the narb happens, because the narb will happen now. Hair development. How to discuss. You know, I also thought was interesting. You were talking about how hair development does not correlate necessarily with puberty. Right. It's totally physically different. So you could have. Your child could have a mustache or underarm hair and not, well, I guess in a girl's case, not be getting her period. Or a boy, I guess, not. Not having wet dreams. But I do have a friend's child who said, like, when do I need to start, you know, like manscaping? To which my husband's response was never. And I like. And I said, no, I think kids are doing that. Like, you have to, you know, let you know. So that seems like that is trending now. How should parents be navigating this?
- [43:12]
C
You know, what I love about this framing of this question is you have asked 1200 questions packed into one. And what you have done is you have made the case for multiple conversations because there's so much to talk about. There's. I mean, it's awesome. There's underarm hair, there's facial hair, there's leg hair, there's shaving, there's manscaping, there's lasering, There's. I mean, endless, Leslie. Endless. And. And all of it deserves conversation. Not in one fell swoop. Lots of small conversations over lots of years. And you will. You will mess up many times you will toe into this conversation thinking, okay, I know how to open it up with this particular kid, given their personality and what's going on in their body.
- [44:05]
A
Or not.
- [44:06]
C
Or what I see on their friends. Or not, right? Or what I just read, or the conversation I just had with Cara and Vanessa. And you will think you know your way in and you will get it so wrong, they will be offended, they will laugh at you, they will leave the room. They won't engage. That's fine. Try it again. Try it a different way. This is going to be an endless journey, all of this of sort of trial and error to show the kids in your life. I care enough to mess this up. And try again and try again and try again. The one sort of warning we give is, and we've said it before on this podcast, just don't come at it from a place of judgment or shame. Just don't come at it with your own baggage. Your hair drama or journey or whatever it was for you is not theirs. And so come at it from a place of curiosity. It's so interesting. I heard that everyone is using these tools to remove their pubic hair. I. You know, it's now a verb. The tools, the manscaper people talk about manscaping. Like, what do you know about this? Talk to me.
- [45:19]
B
What have you.
- [45:20]
C
What do you and your friends talk about this? I mean, it doesn't necessarily land with an amazing, deep conversation where they disclose everything. Often they are not interested in having the conversation. But if you keep going there, Leslie, eventually what they'll come to understand is you. You're interested, you're curious, you don't judge. And your job is to keep them safe and healthy. So you will provide them any information they need, period, full stop.
- [45:48]
B
Okay. And I think, you know, in your chapter, you know, sort of having us all look back to what was popular when we were teenagers. That probably was not your first purchase at CVS if you were a 15 year old man at the time. I'm just throwing it out there, right?
- [46:08]
A
It didn't. I mean, it didn't exist. We.
- [46:10]
C
It was Axe.
- [46:11]
A
It was. I don't. AX didn't even exist when it was Drakkar Noir.
- [46:15]
C
I mean, there was Ax. It was like hidden behind the Drakar Noir.
- [46:20]
A
It was on the shelf.
- [46:21]
C
Yeah, the Little Brother budding brand.
- [46:23]
A
But I mean, Leslie, if you think about, you know, the Jolene on your upper lip and the Nair on your legs and some, you know, that stuff still, I can still summon the smell of the of the hair bleach. I mean, it's like it's imprinted on my brain. And you know, you can say to your kid, this is a whole new world to me. Can you explain it to me? Because for a lot of them, this is exciting. They're proud to have hair. I mean, someone told me a story about their kid who came to them and said, mom, I have three pubic hairs. Do you think it's time to get a manscaper? And it's like, you just want to be like, honey, I could tweeze those suckers out in 30 seconds. Right? But it's, it's exciting. A lot of them have watched other kids, kids develop and grow this hair and they've been waiting and waiting and waiting. Some kids are the early ones and some of them are really proud to have the hair. Some of them feel self conscious about it and they change the way they dress because they're not feeling great about the hair. I hear from a lot of parents who are like, my daughter has hairy legs. It's making me crazy. I'm going to force her to shave or I'm going to force, force her to wax. I don't want her to get made fun of again. That's people bringing their own, their own worry, their own baggage. So it's normal to be worried. It's normal to observe a kid who's either excited about it or struggling with it, but try to get into the conversation without judgment and without sort of being super prescriptive about it. So if you have a kid who's like, I hate my leg hair, I, I want to shave my leg hair, right? Or I want to get rid of my leg hair. And you say, well, what, what's going on for you? I don't like it. People are making fun of me in gym class. Then you can say, oh, like I, first of all, I'm so happy you told me that. I didn't know. I like, I'm really glad that you came to me. It's super important when you remove hair that you do it safely because there's actually, you can get cut, you can get ingrown hair. So why don't we talk about some safe ways for someone your age to remove it. And then, then you're in partnership, then you're in collaboration, then you're validating how they're feeling as opposed to like being super top down about it. Some kids are asking a laser at young ages and it's really important for people to know that that's Permanent. So that's a big decision. And as to cars point about brain development earlier. Kids are not, not really at the stage of development where it's great to make, like lifelong choices.
- [49:08]
C
Also, hair trends will change.
- [49:10]
A
Hair trends will change. And a lot of laser places won't actually do hair removal. I know there are places that ask that a girl has had her period for two years, for example, because they want the hormones to even out because frankly, it's a waste of money until there's a little more hormonal prediction because the, the hair grows back faster. So you're just doing many more sessions of it, which for anyone who's had laser is not a pleasure. You want to repeat more than you need to. So there are some things where it's like as Car said earlier, it's a not now, right? Like, hey, for now, let's talk about waxing or shaving. I know you hear about laser, but this is, this is not yet the time to have that conversation. We'll revisit it in a year or two years, right? It's not.
- [49:56]
C
Not.
- [49:56]
A
I'm just putting my hand up and saying, stop. I'm saying, hey, we'll come, we'll come back to this conversation.
- [50:02]
B
And then for the girl or boy who's, you know, our. I have a friend who has a person that, you know, and my husband will say like, we, we got, we got to deal with the soup catcher. You can't go to. I mean, this is just what is happening here. You know, I'm sure that's not. And he laughs and then they go. And you know, he's overseen while he shaves his upper lip. But I, but if you have a kid who's really good, I'm thinking of girls, which is probably sexist in doing that. But, you know, maybe isn't has a mustache too and is just sort of hesitant and you want to back to your early conversation, you know, or earlier conversation, Vanessa around, sort of helping them kind of understand the bigger picture or how do you navigate that?
- [50:45]
C
It's really hard because what it's sort of the unspoken in your question is how do you bring something up that you're worried will be the source of bullying or eventually the source of lower self esteem without tanking their self esteem. Right. It's like when your toddler used to say, I'm afraid of a monster living in my closet and I don't want to go to bed because I think the monster is going to come out of my closet. And you go, okay, not that you did this. But. Okay, great. Well, let's do a sweep of your room. There's no monster in your closet. There's no monster under the bed. There's no monster in the corner. Now, you've introduced three other places where the monster might live, Right? It's like, this is. This is part of the difficulty of this conversation, and there is no one right way into it, frankly. I mean, every. Every adult child dyad is going to have a different dynamic. I think this is a place where you can introduce your baggage a little bit, and you can do it in the name of bias. You know what I'm noticing that you and some of your friends are growing hair in new places. I'm remembering what that was like when I was growing up. You know, I don't know if things are the same today or different, but I would love to start talking about how you feel about it, what your friends have to say about it. I mean, that's one way in. You don't have to say, I counted the minutes until my mom let me get rid of my unibrow, and I will never do that to you. That's bringing your baggage.
- [52:19]
A
Right?
- [52:20]
C
But acknowledging, like, I had a lot of feelings about this, and my friends had a lot of feelings.
- [52:25]
B
Do you have feelings?
- [52:26]
C
Do your friends have feelings? Do you want to talk about it? I'm always here. You know, that's an easy way in.
- [52:31]
A
My daughter went to get her eyebrows done, and the woman doing her eyebrows, this is like, a few years ago, was like, do you want me to also wax your upper lip while you're at it? My daughter came out. She's like, do I have a mustache? The waxing lady told me I have a mustache. And I was like, oh, my God, that's so. But by the way, it was, like, not visible to the naked eye, but
- [52:53]
B
we're gonna be like, Pastor 20. Like, thanks for having the conversation.
- [52:57]
A
Right. I wish. I wish I had, like, been. Have needed it, and then someone else took care of it. But, you know, it's also, like, different cultural contexts have different opinions about it, and, like, some people don't care, and they don't care about their facial hair or they think it's cool to grow out their underarm hair or, you know, whatever the case may be. And you have to make space for that, because it's not a health and safety issue. And it's frankly, like, it's not even an appropriateness issue. It's a personal style, and it's a bodily autonomy issue. The thing that you don't want to have happen is a kid is grappling with it and it's affecting their self esteem and their. Exactly. They're not talking to you about it. So opening the door the way Cara did gives them a chance to walk through it if they need to. And if they don't, they can just say, no, I'm good. And that's the end of that.
- [53:49]
B
I do want to talk about sex and consent and if, you know, we have time for that. So just when do you have the conversation? What do you say in the conversation?
- [53:58]
A
So I. I'm gonna start with. Because we have a whole health and sex edit curriculum. It's called that health class. It's in now in eight states and it's a kindergarten through 12th grade curriculum. In the lower grade, it's really health education. You know, how does your body work? How do you fuel your body? What are the different systems in your body? What is friendship? What is fairness? Like fundamental social, emotional and bodily awareness skills? Right. Has. Has nothing to do with sex, has nothing to do with puberty. Frankly, until third grade is when we introduce puberty. However, the building blocks in our curriculum have certain fundamental like foundational building blocks. And one of those building blocks is consent. So we start teaching about consent with kindergarteners before it has anything to do with sex, when it has to do with. Can I have a bite of your sandwich? Can I borrow your sweatshirt? Can I sit on your lap? Can I stand in front of you? Online, right, There's a million ways in which we ask for permission and require permission from others in our lives. And we learn about the give and take in preschool, in kindergarten, all through the years, long before the topic of sex ever, ever, ever enters the picture. So ideally, by the time you're talking to a kid about sexual consent, right, you should have permission and you someone else should get permission from you. It should be respectful, it should be pleasurable, it should be fun. That concept of asking for permission and getting someone else's permission is just a part of their vernacular. It's normal to them. And so this is just another layer in which they're thinking about the concept of consent. You can do it in your own family. Stop tickling me. But you love to be tickled. Stop tickling me. Then you stop tickling the kid, right? No, mom, you can't have my french fries. You didn't ask me. You have to ask me for my french fries. You know what?
- [56:12]
B
The french fry one be part of the.
- [56:14]
A
It is the quintessential consent topic. Because everyone thinks French fries are in the public domain and they are not. And as a parent, I've always said to my kid, I bought those French fries, I can have as many French fries as I want. But the truth is it's a great proving ground for asking for permission about something that feels available when really someone needs to ask. So consent is a lifelong conversation. Sometimes it's about sex, but often it has nothing to do with, with sex.
- [56:46]
B
But should we have you talk about, in the book, sort of talking through with your, your kids the four different types of sex, Right? You talk about, you know, oral, vaginal, anal and masturbation. We haven't talked about masturbation yet or I don't know if we're gonna have time to cover that. But I think you would say, do you want, you want to talk to them about that? Just to say that's normal and healthy. Private parts are private. And you do that in your private.
- [57:10]
C
Yeah. I mean, again, first of all, I'm crowning you officially super comfortable, like you. There's no awkward to you. You've just gone there full like, yes, we've moved from VD to this.
- [57:23]
B
Yeah, you're helping me.
- [57:24]
C
You're doing such a great job. So go Leslie. You know, again, this is a lot of conversations, but the framing for how we suggest that people approach sex, information, information about the act of having sex, sex, is to start by defining the terms. I mean, that's how we get into every single topic, right? So how do you define the terms? Well, there are lots of different ways people have sex. Like when we were growing up, you learned one way, right? Penile vaginal intercourse. But it turns out there are lots of different ways. And so that is the framing for how to begin the conversation. I think the, the immediate follow up conversation that we get, our follow up question that we get from parents is, well, when do I have to do this by? And the answer is, you know, I'm not going to tell. You have to. But I'm going to tell you that if you look at the data around pornography exposure and you look at when kids are seeing it, and you look at data that was published in 2023, collected before then, so it's already four years old, it's got timestamp, but it's from Common Sense media that data shows that the average age of first porn viewing is 12 and that 50, 15 of 10 year olds have seen it. So if you would like to be the one to educate your kid, you should use 10 as a marker for Boy, there's a pretty significant risk that my kid is learning what sex is from sexually explicit media online if I don't talk to them about it. So that's where sort of the age recommendations come in. But it's a big, it's like I have to talk to my 10 year old about anal sex. Okay, you can go slow. You can start by having introductory conversations about sex. Vanessa, go.
- [59:09]
A
I literally was about to say, we're not suggesting you talk about anal sex with your 10 year old. Cara. Read my mind. There's a mind meld here. But the point is, you know, you, these conversations are five minutes, three minutes. They're just little conversations. You're, you're, you're breadcrumbing it. And as you go, they're getting increasingly sophisticated and we, we can talk about the physical side of things that's important and the safety side and the pregnancy prevention and all of those things. But also we want to talk about love. We want to talk about respect. We want to talk about pleasure and joy and laughter and communication. Right? Like the, the big picture beautiful parts of what relationships and sex can be. Because ultimately that's our goal for our kids. Like loving, meaningful, respectful, consensual relationships. Those are beautiful. That's what life is about. And if we focus only on. And there is scary stuff and there is serious stuff and we gotta talk about all that stuff, but we can't forget to talk about the good stuff too. So they know, oh, that's out there for me. And here are the skills and information I need to someday get there.
- [60:32]
B
Right? So if you're, you know, we talk about you, we talked about those four different types and I think what you'd both say is that if, you know, we don't use the term normal, but you know, if these are sort of four different types. But if you're not comfortable, child, with what. Pick a one, pick a one. You don't, that's, you still have to give your cons. This is all consensual. It's just to reaffirm for them that like I could see a child saying, wait a minute, I don't. Oral or, or anal or vaginal or whatever their preferences are, finding that to be maybe a tougher hill to climb, that you're just kind of giving them the lay of the land.
- [61:12]
A
I mean, I will tell you a story which is not in the book, which you'll see for obvious reasons, which is there was a point where I sat down with my then 15 year old and I was like, hey, kiddo, I know there's a lot of anal sex and porn, and I don't have any illusions that you haven't seen porn or you haven't watched porn. I don't imagine a girl your age is all that interested in having anal sex with you. So even though you've seen it in porn, that is a big conversation to have with someone before you ever assume that that's something they're interested in. Now, not everybody does the work that Cora and I do, so not everyone's going to feel super interested and comfortable in having that conversation. But, like, there are times when you can be really upfront. You can refer to that, you know, they've probably seen it or been exposed to it, and you can refer to things that are like, they think is normal because that's what's important. But in fact, it's, like, not something that, you know, people are necessarily into or excited about. But there's this cultural pressure to assume it's, like, a thing.
- [62:20]
C
And I think here's a good place for us to land because there's so much we could say on this subject. But I think there's a very big disconnect between what many parents know or have seen or understand about what's coming at kids and their own lived experience. I mean, you know, Playboy was pornography when many of us were growing up. This is a different world, and it can be very hard for the adults to wrap their brains around what is coming at kids. And so the very first thing to do is educate yourself. Right? Start reading and learning about what kids are seeing and when, and you will know how to get into conversation with your kids. If you don't know, come to us. We're@lessawkward.com we'll give you a million conversation starters and we'll help you out. Read the book. Right. This is so awkward. We'll give you all the ways in, but you have to start by understanding how this landscape is. Has changed because it bears no resemblance. And once you start to appreciate what kids are seeing, then suddenly these conversations don't feel as overwhelming because this is the new reality.
- [63:41]
B
Right? Right. Well, I know we talked at the beginning about maybe a retreat. I mean, I think it's in order. I have. I mean, I have so much. I'm gonna. I have.
- [63:50]
A
I'll.
- [63:51]
B
I'll cover it. Listeners in my substance, all the other great feedback from the book because I learned so much from this book. And I think, as you mentioned, Kara, the big takeaway here, and Vanessa, too, is having these conversations, not trying to put yourself, you know, there was one of the things, you know, I often will say to my kids, like, you know, when I was your age or I had that experience and it stinks. But listening to them first. Right. Is the good beginning. And not inserting yourself into the conversation was another great takeaway I got from the book. And. But having that kind of help inform you a little bit about what it feels like to be their age. But as you said, Kara, we've got to do our research that some of these practices are in and some are out. So no pun intended there. But it was such a pleasure being with you both and I'm sorry we went over. And again, I have a bunch of other things that I'd love to get you back on at some point in the future to cover because it's been so informative.
- [64:52]
A
We'll record the retreat, Leslie. We'll. We'll do a live recording at our Cannon Ranch retreat or even BlackBerry farm. I mean, why not? Let's think. Let's think even bigger.
- [65:03]
B
That's closer to me. But I. But I'm not kidding that I really do think there's a real. There's a. So let's talk if you need the organizer. That is one of my.
- [65:12]
A
You and I will talk and Cara will just say, tell me. Send me my plane ticket.
- [65:18]
C
I'll be in the yoga room, guys. That's where I'll be.
- [65:21]
B
Yeah, we all need to grow in this together. We're all into this lesson thing together. Anyway, thank you both so much. That was Dr. Kara Natterson and Vanessa Kroll Bennett and I generally could have kept going for another hour. We actually talked about doing a retreat, and I'm not ruling it out. I learned so much from this episode, but I had so many other subjects I could have covered with them. If you like me want more information from Cara and Vanessa, you can find them@lessawkward.com where they have conversation starters, resources and information about their health curriculum, which is now in eight states. It's called that Health Class. And of course, their book, this is so Awkward. Modern Puberty Explained. Run, don't walk to buy it. It's like having a roadmap for you, for your children during their teenage years. If this episode was useful to you, and I hope it was, the best thing you can do is show, share it with another parent. And if you enjoyed it, please rate or review us wherever you get your podcasts. It generally helps more people find the show. And I read every single one. So thank you so much for listening to Duolog and see you next week with a new episode.