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- [00:00]
Andrew Karima
So like, if it's bad, it's bad. It's, you know, it's whatever. But I was always just kind of intimidated by, okay, I write an article and then a bunch of people see this and they could just think it's complete crap. But I don't know, something just kind of woke up in me right before the pandemic and I was like, you know what? I'm going to start this blog and I'm going to write and I'm going to read a bunch and I'm going to figure it out.
- [00:29]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Welcome to the Investor, a podcast where I, Joel Palo Thinkle, your host, dives deep into the minds of the world's most influential institutional investors. In each episode, we sit down with an investor to hear about their journeys and how global markets are driving capital allocation. So join us on this journey as we explore these insights. All right, so it looks like we are live here with Andrew Karima at Contos vc Andrew, I met him through our Slack channel and we've always just been picking each other and keeping in touch and we're able to actually do a deal flow sharing call, you know, a couple, couple weeks ago talking about deep tech. So you know, I think it'd be really great for you to tell us about your story. You know, you didn't start out in bc, so I think hearing that path of how you navigated into B.C. from being an operator, being a tech person, and possibly how you were able to make that pivot, I think it'd be maybe a good start. And then maybe you can talk about some high level topics around deep tech and where we think the future's heading. How does that sound?
- [01:42]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, of course, like to say I probably have an atypical route, but I've come to see after all these interviews that I think almost everybody's route into VC is atypical. So atypical is pretty typical. Anyways, so let's start from the very beginning. Born in Kenya, as you can see the flag behind me. Moved to the States when I was 3. Lived most of my life in Washington State. It was when I was little, I think just was watching Star wars and Star Trek. I fell in love with just like sci fi and the future and building things right. So I always knew I wanted to be an engineer. But alongside came high school, middle school. You know, I started really getting into football so I kind of shifted my focus a little bit. So after high school I decided and decided to go play football at a junior college. Did that for a couple years, but After a couple of years just seeing all my friends just, you know, enjoy their lives at college while still like focusing on what they really want to focus on, reminded me like, hey, I really want to be an engineer or I want to be a builder of some sort, entrepreneur. So I was like, you know, yeah, I'm done with this. Hung up the cleats, decided to transfer to University of Arizona to get a degree in systems engineering and a minor in electrical and computer engineering. While I was there, my senior year was probably my first entrepreneurial endeavor. Me and some other classmates, we started a startup named Facade Technologies for our senior design project. And as you guys know, senior design projects, usually you just go with, you know, an already established kind of company and whatnot. But we wanted to do our own thing, so that's what we did. And we built this kind of cool little toy tool, facil. It was desktop application that could automate other desktop applications through Python APIs. So yeah, we kind of did that. Things went well, had some momentum going on past after we graduated. Unfortunately I graduated from the unfortunate class of 2020 and so we went from there and along the way we just decided to separate, go our own ways. No hard feelings or anything, but everyone else kind of had like some other aspirations and so yeah, we just open sourced our software and that's kind of. Yeah, that was the end of facade. And me, I was still hungry for the whole entrepreneurial. You know, I was still inspired to be in innovation. I wanted to be in the innovative ecosystem could. And so from there I just looked for other opportunities, was looking into product management. At the beginning I'd never saw myself as just jumping into being a founder. At first I thought I wanted to take it easy as a product manager and then maybe flow my and flow into like a startup and then maybe start my own company one day. But I didn't end up happening. I did an internship as a product manager for a VC firm, a Dow startup too. And so that led me to Sencha Credit. And I was very compelled about the problem they were trying to solve. Then Sencha was trying to solve the problem of credit, right. And so we were trying to build the debit card that could build credit. And so I was with him for a year and things went well. I ended up becoming the CTO/ kind of co founder and but along the way I met a lot of people. That's when I really started meeting a lot of people in the tech ecosystem. Yeah, and just for reference of time, this is about last year, midway through 2020. And I was like, you know, and at the same time I started, right. I started a blog just writing a bunch of about deep tech because that's, you know, that was always going to be the angle for me. And eventually after deciding I wanted to pursue a career in venture capital and think three to four months later, I decided to go into vc. And so I was kind of juggling between that and center credit on how I found Cantos is I was just applying a bunch, trying to get my content out there. Started actually interviewing other founders and just stakeholders in the deep tech ecosystem. And that brought me to Ian. And at the time he was looking for an analyst that had an engineering background and that already had his own content. And that's. And then we had a talk and he's like, hey, you know, like what you're doing and whatnot. And you kind of already have that entrepreneurial drive. So, yeah, I'm looking for hard tech analysts and that's just what I ended up being for Kantos. And I ended up loving what I was doing for Kantos so much that it kind of just took away some of like my focus from Sencha. And at the time, Sencha 2 had other plans. And so not too long ago, I decided to actually leave Sencha and just come on full time on board with Kantos and just focus on what I was doing there.
- [07:32]
Joel Palo Thinkle
So Sensho, you know, you were doing a lot of product management. What are some of the skill sets? I guess tell me a little bit about the skill sets in your role at Sensho and then how that helped you become a good VC and land the role. And I'd love to learn a little more about how you convinced Kantos to bring you on. Was the role more of like a volunteer role in the beginning and then maybe you created your own role because a lot of times, right, like if we want to do something in life and somebody's not going to offer it to us, we have to create our own role. And you know, sometimes that role doesn't exist until you help people understand that that's important. Right. So would love to know a little more about like how you were able to kind of just really break into the VC fund from.
- [08:19]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, yeah. So I don't think actually a lot of it had to do with my actual skill set that I. From Sencha, I did learn a lot of things about leading a team, managing a team, and how difficult it really is to be a founder and get things going. So I did have a respect for the business. But I think more so what Sencha did for me, it brought me to the ecosystem and because I was a CTO and I'm trying to, like, meet all these stakeholders and all these investors and people who could be advisors and just all these people in the tech ecosystem. Then I started interacting with people in the venture, a lot of venture capitalists and other deep tech founders as well. Um, so, yeah, I would say it was based off that a lot. But one big thing for me was my blog and just writing content. It was, I think, the beginning, right before the beginning of the pandemic. And I always said this for years on years throughout college that I was going to start my own blog. You know, one day I want to write my own book. So. But I was always kind of scared too, because I was like, man, I don't want to. It's one thing to write an essay and then only your professor sees it, you know, so, like, if it's bad, it's bad. It's, you know, it's whatever. But I was always just kind of intimidated by, okay, I write an article and then a bunch of people see this and they could just think it's complete crap. But I don't know, something just kind of woke up in me right before the pandemic, and I was like, you know what? I'm going to start this blog and I'm going to write and I'm going to read a bunch of and I'm gonna figure it out. But so that did lead me to that kind of fear. Still took me three months to finish my first article. Then I started reading about how you need to write more and more and more if you want to become a great writer and you just gotta be able to ignore all the crap, you know? And so I just started writing a bunch. And then that, along with my blog, along with all the people and I was meeting in the ecosystem, kind of gravitated me toward like a venture capital route. And so now let's say beginning of 2020.
- [10:48]
Joel Palo Thinkle
So. So you wrote the blog and then did you. How did you engage with Cantos? Did you just give them the blog and say, hey, we'd love to talk about your thesis. Here's. Here's a deep tech blog that I wrote.
- [11:00]
Andrew Karima
No, I. To go back on your question too, about whether Kantos was making. Like I made a position with Kantos now. Ian Roundtree, our GP founding partner, very much was looking for analysts and he. I just kind of like bugged him a bunch because I knew if you want to get the attention of a vc, one email is not going to cut it. So I bugged him.
- [11:29]
Joel Palo Thinkle
And it's kind of a fine balance, right, because you don't want to be so persistent that it's annoying, but you also want to be persistent that, you know, because a lot of times it's not that they're trying to ignore you as you know, now that you're in vc, it's really that you have so much, you know, in your backlog, right. You're, you're looking at five deals actively possibly going to go into diligence and you've got, you know, seven or eight that you're actively, you know, asking questions about and following up on and then you've just sourced and screened another one. So you're like in a different stage, you know, with like multiple deals at the same time. Right. And then you could be fundraising if you're an emerging manager as well. So that's, you know, that's a whole other beast when you're trying to balance out with trying to manage portfolio support. So, so it's not, I feel for me it's really just not any function of trying to ignore people or avoid people. Maybe they do want to talk to you. It's just, it didn't hit like the queue yet, you know, because you've got five other things. So. So you kept on kind of, you know, non invasively just kind of following up. Yeah, in a, in a non annoying way.
- [12:39]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, exactly. And I tried getting to other firms too. Kantos wasn't the first, but sure, I just had to like, just try and then each time I'd fail, just kind of change my formula and then try again, you know, and it eventually worked. You know, I had, I had my opportunity.
- [13:00]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Sure. And you know, did they have any formal interview process? Did they kind of grill you on just your knowledge of deep tech or was it really just kind of a bunch of conversations? Because in the past I wrote, you know, the interview process for me, I was quite fortunate, you know, I just, you know, had a long meal with the GP and had several discussions and then I was fine. But there are people that go through the official process, right, where you got to like, you know, build a, build a financial model and, you know, forecast out participating preferred versus non participating preferred.
- [13:35]
Andrew Karima
Yeah.
- [13:36]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Do a lot of quantitative questions. But you know, sometimes it helps if you got a relationship with somebody and there's somebody that has a specific need quickly and you're able to kind of be the person that can address that, that need.
- [13:51]
Andrew Karima
Yeah. And no, because Ian, you know, he has a really good tell of character and he usually knows he knew what he wanted immediately on the type of analyst he was looking for. And for me, a lot of the vetting process happened before we even had our first meeting. Like, he just looked at my blog and found some podcasts that I was in and just kind of looked at my history and then was like, okay, kind of fits that bill and then wanted to have a conversation with me a couple times. So it wasn't like this very long, formal, five meetings kind of situation. But it was also, even when I was brought onto the team, I still had to, you know, kind of prove myself and to see if I was going to be a member in the long term. You know, it wasn't just, oh, hey, now you're on team, it's all good. And even then, every day I'm sure I'm still competing to be better, you know, and so. Yeah, but he's a real chill, laid back guy. He's not like, you know, your typical VC that where you're gonna think of like, oh, this is very antagonizing kind of figure. No, Ian's a very friendly guy and he'll give you opportunity where he sees fit and if you deserve it, then he will give it.
- [15:13]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Sure. No, that's great. And you know, tell me some of the skills that you think are important to possibly be an analyst and then, you know, as you mature, what are some things that, you know, you're thinking about as you, as you grow in your career as a vc? So to progress, because you're probably in that inflection point now. Right. What do you think it takes to graduate from being an analyst to now an associate?
- [15:38]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, I would say one. It's your recognition on deal flow and the speed at that happens. It's taken a very long time for me to understand what necessarily, what does that kind of company look like? That kind of company that we're looking for and being able to pick up on those signals also just, it's a lot of the language, a lot of the diction. There's. VCs have entirely their own dictionary. And you know how most people don't even know about BC till they write 6 months to a year before they try to break in? Yeah, there's a lot of words and a lot of verbiage that you're going to have to learn. And even now I'm still trying to get used to that.
- [16:27]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Sure.
- [16:27]
Andrew Karima
But yeah, can you give us a.
- [16:30]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Little bit of a Crash course. So, you know, jumping in, you know, with, with being an analyst. What are some, you know, buzzwords or just pieces of terminology that you, you think we need to know. And this is good for me, make sure there's nothing new to me.
- [16:45]
Andrew Karima
Yeah. Some common jargon, I would say. Well, defensibility and building a moat. Being able. Knowing what. When you have something good, you have a great ip. How as you as a company can actually protect that down the road. So that's with me and defensibility. Well, plenty other jargon. Just, I don't know, it's just kind of all over the place. I think I've kind of gotten so used to it now that it's like, it's kind of harder to just like kind of pop off my head for particular words.
- [17:24]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Sure. I mean, look, this is that, that's exactly how I am with restaurant recommendations. If, if I thought about it, I could probably, you know, rattle off 20 restaurants. But if you asked me on the spot, I'd completely go blank. I have no restaurants for you. But ask me another time and I can be like, look, here's 20amazing restaurants to visit in New York.
- [17:46]
Andrew Karima
Yeah. I can tell you though, what things now that I know that I didn't know too much before and even when I was essential, like in preparing a pitch deck and what immediate things that investors want to see and that's things like, okay, you got your table, you got your problem, your solution. But more so than that, how much impact can your solution actually make? Going again on what I said with defensibility, how are you going to build your moat at Cantos? Part of our philosophy, a huge part of our philosophy is the seven powers. And between all those seven powers, we believe that usually we'd want to find a company that has either corner resources, counter positionings towards incubates and you know, but yeah, so there's. And market opportunity, obviously we always want fund the fam. What we call feature. Addressable markets Feature.
- [18:50]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Addressable market feature or future Future.
- [18:55]
Andrew Karima
Addressable market future.
- [18:56]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Got it. Yeah. So what's the future comparable to? I guess that's a. Because the TAM is like the biggest market size. Right. So how would that be different than the future? Because wouldn't the TAM be achievable still in the future? Cause it's too big right now for us to think about. Or is it a decade from now or something?
- [19:18]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, no, we're looking at decades. I mean, you got to think about Deep Tech, A lot of these companies that Deep Tech, that Deep Tech Investors will invest in, they're probably not going to make those venture backable returns in like 10 to 12 years. And correct me, there's probably a bunch that have, but it's very rare. And, and I mean the deep tech ecosystem is just emerging and we're just at the beginning right now, so.
- [19:45]
Joel Palo Thinkle
No, we talked about this. I mean there's a couple companies that you and I have spoke about that have such a long horizon they could outlive a venture fund. Right. So it could be probably a 14 to 15 year horizon for the company to be commercially available. And most venture funds are usually seven to 10 years long as far as their, you know, limited partnership agreement. So you know, how do you think some of the venture funds are, are handling that with, with deep Tech? Are they just, you know, this is just your opinion, right? Do you think they're just managing those expectations with the LPs or do they have more of a fund structure that is like a 20 year fund? Yeah, not sure how that, how that's handled because I mean if you, because you're, you guys are mainly doing deep tech, I mean I, I focus on deep tech and then a couple other sectors so that, you know, the time horizon is less when it comes to B2B SaaS or consumer comparatively when you compare that to deep tech.
- [20:48]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, I don't know because I have not seen, there's no like this kind of framework that I've seen from really any other firms on Preparing for a 20 year horizon. Um, it's kind of quite in that range that you just said 10 to 15 years for most. And really all you can do is just, I mean, diligence, diligence, diligence and talk to advisors and people who've done it and been there before to see is this actually something that could happen. Because really, I mean when you talk about deep Tech, we're looking into the far future here. You know, we're talking about markets that sometimes might not even be here yet. They might not even actually exist. And that happens a lot of times, you know, but yeah. So really all you can do is just do your best on diligence and talk to the right key pieces, subject matter experts in those areas.
- [21:52]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah, yeah. And I was a sci fi nerd myself, you know, watched Star wars and you know, Back to the Future. So what are you excited about? You know, what sectors or what industries or technologies are you the most fired up about and just in general, just excited about?
- [22:13]
Andrew Karima
One thing I'm very excited about is nuclear, nuclear energy, advanced Nuclear energy. Precisely. And just these new models of fission reactors that are come, that are coming into play. And I mean there's fusion, but fusion I think is a way bit out there. But it's great because it could be like completely change the entire world.
- [22:38]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah.
- [22:39]
Andrew Karima
So yeah, nuclear energy, and that is something to. There's been for a very long time like this anti zeitgeist to nuclear energy and. But people, a lot of people don't know that like 20% of the US is powered by nuclear energy. So it's kind of. And that's through power plants that have a very old, you know, infrastructure. So yeah, there's okay. Nuclear energy. I've always been a geek on quantum computing.
- [23:11]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Space before quantum. Can you unpack fusion versus fission? And I don't. Do you remember the movie the Saint with Val Kilmer back in the 90s? So in the Saint was that fusion? And that's like energy power by water, right?
- [23:29]
Andrew Karima
I'm not sure. I never actually watched that movie.
- [23:32]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Okay, yeah, it's a good movie because they talk about, I think it's nuclear fusion, but it's. It was a whole concept of like how a gallon of water could like power a city. But could you unpack that for us again? I had a long discussion about both a few months ago and then I kind of lost. I forgot some of the context. But if you could unpack that, that'd be really great.
- [23:54]
Andrew Karima
Yeah. So from a high level, just vision, splitting the atom, fusion, bringing the atoms together.
- [24:02]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Sure.
- [24:02]
Andrew Karima
But to achieve nuclear fusion, you need like six to seven times hotter than the sun itself. So it takes like very powerful magnets and very powerful, very robust structures to contain fusion. A fusion reaction or plasma, actually. So that's why I'm saying from technical risk perspective, that is pretty way off. But fission, which is the us, the Democratic Party actually, for the first time since I think 1980, I can't, not off the top of my head, but for like about 40 years actually accepted fusion fission into their plant nuclear powers. And so one thing that's come up that's very popular, small modular reactors. So just decreasing the size of reactors, which means a lot safer and also more mobile and flexible.
- [25:07]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Sure. Okay, so that's definitely interesting. And where do you see the innovation happening? You talked about smaller reactors. Is that going to really replace the traditional AC and DC electricity that we have now? And then how does that compare to green hydrogen energy as far as the spectrum of efficacy and commercialization? Yeah.
- [25:33]
Andrew Karima
So I think every renewable source has their part to play in this, I don't think it's just going to be an all for one. I think SMRs are going to be great in remote situations. You know, areas where it's hard. You can't just build, you can't just have energy storage and transmit electrical energy over there. Right. Or just build a bunch of solar panels and whatnot. If you're talking about hydrogen as in terms of hydrogen fuel cells or hydrogen power in itself, hydrogen power, like hydrogen generators from dams, I think they'll still be around, same with solar and wind. But I don't see hydrogen fuel cells. I think, I don't see where they're going to really play and I think they're very far off. And then even then hydrogen fuel cells have been known to be very unsafe. So not sure how that's going to happen. But yeah, as far as nuclear energy, I think it's going to top off as the number one. But we'll see, we'll see. Because as, as far as transportation goes, transportation is the greatest emitter of greenhouse gases and that's going to require just a lot of electrification, whether semi trucks, what else, by, by sea, by even planes might go towards electrification. So yeah, it's all very interesting. I guess it just depends on what technology is going to mature the quickest because I think really the only thing stopping nuclear is ourselves. But a lot of other technologies, it's not ourselves that are stopping that from happening. Like lithium ion batteries, they're just super heavy and we haven't figured out enough about energy storage yet to make, commercialize something where there can be a very dense like a lithium ion battery. So yeah, we're still in the learning stages of that. But yeah, that's kind of how I think it'll play all out. But. So I am very pro nuclear as you can hear.
- [27:59]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Sure. No, it's really exciting and, and talk us through quantum. I guess you know, there's still a few years away or several years away from getting to a commercial state. And you know, my knowledge, it's really about the stability of the quantum bits and the, and the circuits. Right. It's just if you get to that state, you know, there's just an issue with it being super noisy. So right now we're in the NISQ stage. Quantum. But tell me some high level takeaways of what you're excited about and what you see in the future for Quantum and, and you know, are there any interesting companies that you think are doing some innovation right now in the quantum space?
- [28:40]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, so I Mean there's. So the goal is to get to fault tolerant, right, where we can reduce a lot of that noisiness and high coherence. So I can't speak too much on a lot of what is actually going on with the technologies and the architectures because there's a whole lot of different architectures here. And yeah, so there would be plenty of people out there who know a lot more than I do. I'm just like a huge fan and been trying to learn as much as possible. But yeah, there's some interesting stuff going on there. I won't lie. There is a bit of ambiguity and I think I've picked that up actually from jumping into vc because before VC I was like all pro quantum computing and everything and now I'm like, okay, yeah, these are the actual realities, you know, so. And you can't really tell the time on when things are going to happen, but the day that we do crack the code and we can get to at least fault tolerant quantum technologies, it's going to change a lot of things. But that affects, that's going to affect all sorts of other things. But yeah, that's.
- [30:06]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah, no, it's really helpful. And then what are some other high level trends that you guys look for? And any advice on sourcing great deep tech companies? Traditionally a lot of times I find interesting deal flow just number one through other VCs, but I think it's also important to build relationships with universities because a lot of the workbenches and the technology is incubated a lot of times at the university and then if they have a good support system, they can commercialize those and turn them into companies.
- [30:42]
Andrew Karima
So I actually do have a personal opinion. This is even outside of the framework of Kantos, about like the whole university building just from we all know in venture capital to be a bit of an exclusive bunch. Right? And when you talk about incubating with universities, the first things I'm going to think and what a lot of other people are going to think are what your traditional Harvard, Stanford and yeah, and mit. And so my thing is actually I would almost want to refrain from that and go into kind of like what Beyond Deck is doing, you know, more of these online schools where it kind of gives everyone an opportunity to be a part of the ecosystem, you know, and can shine just as bright as somebody from MIT or Stanford, you know, and kind of give more of a level playing field because you know, a lot of people do look at that and they'll be like, oh, that guy went to Stanford and blah, blah. But I don't think there should be. There's a lot of smart people that go to a lot of other universities and they didn't have the same opportunity to go to those universities and that's just how it is. So. And no, you know, you can't change the past or whatnot. But yeah, yeah, I'm more pro on just the virtual, I would guess university and the opportunity that the Internet has given us already. I mean given. I came from University of Arizona, which is not a super prestigious school in technology, but really just do navigating through the tech ecosystem on Twitter and LinkedIn and that kind of brought me to where I am today.
- [32:32]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah, no, that's, I completely resonate with you because I think in the future, you know, schools might change to doing tasks to prove that you have proficiency. So you know, there's a fintech app that I've seen recently that gamifies trading strategies. And what you can do is you can, you can, you know, for, for investment managers, for potential traders or asset managers, they can paper trade using a kind of like a algorithm or a simulated trading experience. And the based on your trades and how your performance is, that gives you an overarching score and then you can send that score to a hiring manager. So I feel like those stats and that data could easily outperform a resume because a resume could completely be fabricated. People could write whatever they want and be whoever they want. But if you build something for employment screening, which makes you do a task that gets graded in a data driven way, it truly is merit and it also breaks down boundaries of privilege. Right. Because you could be in a small town in India and as long as you have Internet, you have an even playing field. If you're just a good trader and good at analyzing the market than somebody who comes from a privileged upbringing in New England. Right. Because at the end of the day, who can find better deals? And as long as you have Internet these days, I mean we've all been working remote, half of the demo days are virtual. So that, that means that anybody can do this from anywhere. Yeah, as long as you have a good connection.
- [34:23]
Andrew Karima
Yeah. Well, you know, one thing I actually said today on Twitter about finding those great deals, I think a lot of it comes down to don't be a jackass, just be open to listening to other people and I believe personal our fiduciary responsibility as investors to give that time of day to founders. Even, even if it's not a deal that you particularly want to take in or you're not very interested in, to at least give them a solid response. And you know, you can't get back to everybody but that those things, I think that momentum builds and you don't see it at first, but down the road it's going to come kind of like good karma come back to you and help you get in on those deals. Or somebody said something, somebody, something to somebody. And you know, so I think just being open minded, not trying to be like, oh, he wasn't this cookie cutter type of founder. So yeah, that's just not me. But yeah, and yeah, exactly. Going back to what you were talking about, I know I kind of went off a little bit, but I am, I wanted. My favorite interviews I've had on my deep tech dives was with Drew Bailcock. And one thing he brought up to me, and I've been saying this over and over again to all my friends, proof of work, always proof of work over proof of knowledge. Like showing people a here's the work rather than here's the degree. Like, you know, if you want to be an engineer at Google and think, actually I think Google just released this now that they do accept engineers that are not coming from universities. And so, yeah, not too long ago. And so it's really just, hey, do you want to be, if you want to be a software engineer at a big tech company, build something. Build something that a big tech company would use rather than go to school. And there are, there are a bunch of other pros from going to school and you know, I'd still advise for it, but I understand not everybody can do it, but I still want everybody to have the same opportunity.
- [36:38]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Sure, yeah. It depends on your goal. Right. So money, you know, it's what Warren Buffett says. Right. So money is what you pay, value is what you get. Right. So if you're paying money and it's expensive, but the value outweighs it, you know, then it's, then in your mind it could be worth it, you know, but if you're paying a lot of money and you're still unemployed and you're still looking for work and you're not in the industry that you're in, you know, that's a problem because you spent a lot of time and money. So I think that's why the rise of a lot of these programs where people can change their life and their career in two months, two, three months, we're heading towards a skill based economy. Right. So if you want to do well in a job, you just have to have those skill sets.
- [37:24]
Andrew Karima
Yeah.
- [37:25]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Versus a degree or a badge. Because the badge, I think it's good for marketing or personal marketing. Right. Branding. And you know, it helps, you know, obviously if you write a book, you know, when you, when you give a lecture, you know, it shows like some type of authority. So I think, you know, doing things to brand yourself in the right way is half the battle. Right. There's people that are not super talented at certain crafts, but they, they storytell really well and they brand themselves really well and that also opens up a lot of opportunity. So I think just a combination of both. Right. So if you have a great degree from a really top university, as long as you're able to achieve your goal, I think it's, I think it's really helpful. And then if you can, then you know, there's other communities and platforms like On Deck and you know what we're doing with VC for, for just more of a supplement to that.
- [38:27]
Andrew Karima
Yeah.
- [38:27]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Maybe accelerate that.
- [38:29]
Andrew Karima
Yeah. And I mean, not taken away from what they did, that is still very impressive. And you know, they are still, they're that difficult to get into. So it's that much more impressive. I'm not taking it away from that. I'm just trying to be like more of. Okay, just because somebody isn't, that shouldn't mean you should think less of them. You should look back at, okay, what is the actual physical work they've done first.
- [38:52]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah.
- [38:53]
Andrew Karima
You know, then take it from there. Yeah.
- [38:56]
Joel Palo Thinkle
And there's so many other industries where you can do that. Right. The whole apprenticeship model. You know, I mean, just look at accounting. Right. Like, I mean, what better way to learn accounting than possibly do tax statement? You know, do like a K1 for somebody and you know, just do it and have somebody look over your shoulder. But you know, there's a lot of value in doing the actual work and then, you know, proving that you can do it because that's what you can talk about as an example when you're trying to get a full time job.
- [39:28]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, exactly. And you know, kind of going back to when we were talking about getting into vc. So I mean, Ian didn't make the job, but in my way I was thinking, okay, if I want to crack in to this very exclusive kind of industry, then I'm going to have to do something that a lot of people haven't done. So instead of waiting for somebody to give me work, I just started looking, I started interviewing deep tech founders, I started writing articles and content over deep tech stuff. Like it's the kind of stuff I would have to analyze. So, you know, proving the work rather than trying to wait for the proof of knowledge for. Yeah, exactly, sure.
- [40:12]
Joel Palo Thinkle
And then I think also, you know, we hear this a lot and I also agree with this. Just if you're not a vc, really start living and breathing like a vc. So start sourcing deals. A lot of this content is available, you know, through networks and communities and it's available on Google and YouTube. You can learn anything these days on those channels. Right. So if you want to learn what the key things are that you should know when you're sourcing a deal, you know, it's probably somewhere on the Internet so you can take a first stab and put together a memo. Right. I mean, there's so many templates. I think Bessemer Venture Partners posted all of their memos. Right. So you can take a professional memo and just try to build something that's similar to that. And, and then I think also doing your homework, right? If you're interested in a deep tech fund, understand the deals that they invested in, I guess. What would be your approach? If you're studying a fund, what are some things that you should look at? I'm assuming obviously the portfolio companies, but what are some other things that you would recommend if someone else is trying to break into any kind of fund?
- [41:21]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, well, one, it depends on what level you're like, what are you trying to break into? Are you trying to be a partner? Are you trying to be an analyst? Associate? Well, one, figure that out first before you even start looking at funds, figure out what that is. And then once you know that, then in each firm, everything is very much different. It's not like a lot of big time companies where there's kind of like this robust schedule and everything. Everything's all over the place, you know, and everybody has their own way of doing things and getting things done. So you got to look at, okay, what is that person doing? And kind of work backwards from there. What, what did they used to do and what they, what do they do now? If, for, for instance, if you're looking to be an analyst at B Capital, and so you can just go on their website and easily find a few analysts at B Capital and then look at what they're doing right now and go backwards from that, go on their social medias, everything's out there, like you said, nothing's hidden from anyone. And you can very well see, oh, okay, this person was actually writing a bunch, this person was doing a bunch of podcasts. What not this person is very interested into this. And then also another thing to look at obviously is philosophy of any VC firm. I think they'd be really impressed to know that you already understand the way their firm runs. Yeah. And that, I mean that would just be an add on but again you need as many add ons as you can get.
- [42:54]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah, no, I agree. And you know, when it comes to just understanding the moat, you know, when it comes to some of these sectors, what are some of the ways that you can understand the tech barriers? Do you go deeper into the circuits and you know, understand the components?
- [43:20]
Andrew Karima
You're muted.
- [43:23]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Can you hear me now?
- [43:24]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, I can hear you now.
- [43:25]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah. No, I was just saying, you know, when you look at deep tech, when it comes to hard tech especially, how do you analyze the tech barrier? You know, I've seen some deep tech people really go down to the hardware level and look at the schematics. You know, when you, when you're diligencing these kind of companies, what are some of the mandatory things that you should do to kind of check off all the boxes for diligence? And how do you see that different than like software and B2B SaaS?
- [43:57]
Andrew Karima
Yeah. So I guess one thing, okay, one thing we always like to look at going back to the seven powers, corner resources. And so a lot of what corner resources requires is ip. So you want, you'll literally just quite check, okay, what are the patents? Do you plan on actually having patents? You know, counter positioning, network scales, I mean network economies, scale economies. So what could this be when at scale, how is this going to defend from incubants and what they've done before? Is this a model that if successful like encounter positioning, will it be something that would be so hard for incubate and traditional legacy players in that industry revert to, you know, for instance, like when Tesla, when Tesla came out, it was really hard for O and G companies to catch up and just, they couldn't just oh hey, let's change the production lines and start pushing out EV cars, you know, so that, that's, that's a lot of what we look for in mode. And so a lot of our, yeah, a lot of our entire framework is based off of seven powers and that's how we get that. And so okay, so what are the things to look at? I, I think it has to do with just recognition. After you've seen enough deals, you've done a lot of diligence. There's times too when I'm doing some deep projects. It's not just your regular, oh, let's see where they from, what school do they go to, what are their markets, what competitions that they won. But I'm actually like doing some research on my own. Like some research projects on my own to see like stress test a lot of what they're saying. And it's always good to see that what they're saying is actually factual. And then again, going back to advisors and seeing if these things are real. And then you should be able to kind of surmise whether there actually is a moat to build. And actually Ian has an entire article over our entire philosophy and framework that we follow with. They backed off of the seven powers. So that might be something good to share with you after.
- [46:33]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah, this is great. I'm looking at a lot of your portfolio here. What is still super far away. You know, there was recently, I think, a life extension company that Bezos backed. So what are your thoughts on longevity and life extension?
- [46:51]
Andrew Karima
Altos. So Altos Labs. Um, yeah, I actually read about that not too long ago and I think. I think it's very interesting. I think it's interesting. There's a lot of doctors and scientists who look at anti aging. I mean, as. As aging as a disease. You know, that has not been the regular rhetoric, but obviously I don't see it happening anytime soon. These are one of those now. More moonshot. I would say we're moving more into the moonshot phase of things to come in like 2050 to 2040. But to be honest, I am not the biotech expert at kantos. Not even close. But I'm very interested in life sciences and I like to peek in and out. But I don't try to even understand most of what happens. All I know is I know genome sequencing in 2000 was like millions of dollars and. Yeah, yeah. And yeah. And CRISPR didn't actually become accepted like in the scientific communities until like maybe 10 years ago. And that Illumina has been a big part of bringing genome sequencing down. But there's still a goal to get genome sequencing down to under $100. So there's things that we still have to figure out before we will figure out anti aging. And I mean just disease and drug discovery. I think drug discovery comes first before anti aging. I know they're not necessarily the same two problems, same two beasts.
- [48:27]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Sure.
- [48:28]
Andrew Karima
I would assume drug discovery being able to find any unique drug to cure a unique disease for whatever person comes before us, figuring out how we can really extend 2.3x. And I'm talking about 2, like over 200 years and stuff like that, you know, I'm not talking about like 120 to 150 years. I think that's already, I think we're already capable of that. Yeah, I think human beings are already capable of that.
- [48:58]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Got it. Do you think they could be capable just from a healthy lifestyle and supplements or do you think there's still technology that's needed to get to 150?
- [49:08]
Andrew Karima
I think, yeah. I think technology is not required to live to 120 or over 100. Let's just say be safe. I don't think technology is required. I've even had my own family members back in Kenya that I didn't meet till I, right before I went transferred to U of A and met a lot of people who were like older than 100. But sure, obviously, unfortunately, whenever they would come upon disease because there's not, you know, the best, then life can end early.
- [49:41]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah.
- [49:41]
Andrew Karima
So yeah, I don't think it's a requirement. But if we do want to push the boundaries of what we say genetics says is like the boundary right now, then we do. Technology will need to be required for that.
- [49:57]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah, no, I totally agree. What about extensions of your appendages? Right, so there's, there's brain control and there's different things that you can do to control your brain with neuralink. But you know, I was talking to some of the other deep tech PCs and there's a lot of things that you can do without implanting anything. So with, with Elon Musk, obviously he implanted a device into the pigs, but there's a lot of cool technology that you know, like shift control ops. Right. Like they can put something on your wrist and you can kind of like, you know, move something and actually control something from really far away. So yeah, I think that's really powerful if you could like orchestrate something with your hands and actually met and you know, and actually control a crane or do large scale tasks with which is kind of a. I would say it's.
- [50:55]
Andrew Karima
The non invasive, you know, BCIs.
- [50:59]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah, yeah. So it's almost like the, the, you know, the experience. I forgot the movie, the famous movie with the, with the guy that was in the machine and, and it was, I forgot the name of it.
- [51:14]
Andrew Karima
But yeah, sorry. But yeah, no, that stuff is very interesting. There are a few things I can't go fully, I can't fully dive into because I have seen some very, very companies that have done some, some mind blowing things. But there is, I can't say though, non invasive BCIs out there that can really help bring us, you know, closer to. I would like to say that what Ray Kurzweil likes to say, Epoch five when kind of like the convergence of human intelligence and human technology. And I've always been a great proponent of the best way for us to live a technology is to adapt to technology.
- [52:02]
Joel Palo Thinkle
So.
- [52:04]
Andrew Karima
But a lot of people right now already say that we're cyborgs, just external cyborgs with their phones and whatnot. But yeah, I think non invasives will come along and then, I don't know, I can't tell when invasive BCIs will commercialize. And that was just because there's just going to be a nightmare at first to commercialize those even with FDA approval. And I know Neuralink has FDA approval, but just how realistic are you going to get? Just religiously speaking? How are you going to convince somebody, hey, we're just going to blow this chip into your brain? You know, we couldn't get half the world to take, I mean, half of America to take vaccines because they thought the chip was going to get into them now. Yeah, exactly.
- [52:54]
Joel Palo Thinkle
So it's the avatar that was what I was, you know, blanking out on. But, you know, it's just all, you know, the avatar experience where you're kind of sitting at home, but you could be someone else or do something that can be very difficult. Right. And then there's a whole there, you know, that, that gets into play with other things too. Like imagine doing a surgery from home. You know, I mean, the big issue is like latency. But if you can solve that, you can do an open heart surgery or you can do maybe a low risk surgery that's highly accurate and, and high fidelity where you can do remote. Because right now, a lot of times telehealth is still limited to non physical procedures. Right. You can kind of do a consult virtually, but once you have to try to examine people, that's where you can really do that remotely. If you have more of the avatar kind of experience where you have some type of gloves or something and you can kind of examine people virtually, I mean, haptics and all that stuff has to come into play as well, I'd say.
- [54:04]
Andrew Karima
Yeah. And I think also a lot of what you're talking about just being another person, and I know you're talking about more in the physical sense, but I think a lot of that will come from the metaverse with VR and ar and I mean, just kind of. And I think there's going to be a linkage between non invasive BCIS and Metaverse, you know, bands like the Oculus and stuff. Why not? Would you kind of have that control in there and then be yourself? That's kind of like, that's where that happens, that convergence for what you're talking about with Avatar.
- [54:40]
Joel Palo Thinkle
So some people might eventually prefer the metaverse versus reality.
- [54:45]
Andrew Karima
Some people.
- [54:47]
Joel Palo Thinkle
For some people. For some people, the metaverse may be real life and reality is a metaverse. Right. So it could be.
- [54:54]
Andrew Karima
I mean, you're saying some people. Earlier today, I just read an article about how TikTok became the number one streaming viewing platform over YouTube in the U.S. so when you say some people, I don't know if it's just going to be some. We still have a social dilemma on our hands that skyrocketed over the pandemic.
- [55:17]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah.
- [55:17]
Andrew Karima
And so now we have no idea what is going to happen. So, I mean, yeah, there's. Dtec promises a lot of great opportunities, but there are also, there are those possibilities of, you know, us also kind of ruining ourselves and going to that, you know, dystopian kind of framework.
- [55:40]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah.
- [55:41]
Andrew Karima
But I don't think that's. I'm an optimistic person, so I like to oc the last half full. So I think it will help us for the better in the long.
- [55:52]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Why do you think, you know, do you got a couple more minutes to chat?
- [55:55]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, go ahead.
- [55:56]
Joel Palo Thinkle
So why do you think, you know, do you remember Second Life? Why do you think Second Life didn't work out? Because I remember playing with Second Life when it came out, and it was a lot of fun and it was almost like a metaverse. Right. It's a virtual, you know, universe. You can go to a bar in Second Life. You can, you know, start your own city. You can meet people. And then they used to have that video game, the Sims. So why do you think some of those platforms just died out or lost adoption? And then, you know, what is the big difference with that in the metaverse? Is it really. Because the metaverse is tied to a lot of the cryptocurrencies and there's real currency that you can use.
- [56:37]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, I would say the metaverse is nowhere near being like, when you, a lot of people frame the metaverse, what are you going to jump to? You're going to think of Ready Player One. Metaverse is nowhere near that. It's nowhere near. Like, I think when people are speaking about the metaverse and virtual reality, we're talking about that world where you literally can be someone else and you feel as if you're someone else. But. Yeah. So until that happens, I don't think we're gonna get there. I've tried. I've tried a little AR headset from one of my friends dads, and it was cool and everything, but after some time, it kind of gets boring and old. And they're very, very expensive. Sure, they're very, very expensive. You know, I'm not going to pay 500 to $1,000 to just use something kind of mediocre right now.
- [57:37]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah. Have you used the Hololens?
- [57:39]
Andrew Karima
I haven't used the HoloLens. I haven't used anything innocuous. Yeah, I'm just kind of.
- [57:44]
Joel Palo Thinkle
The Hololens blew me away. So I got invited to a demo maybe five years ago when the Hololens came out, and it was probably the most amazing thing that I saw. The only issue is the field of view cuts off right here. So if you look around, you don't really feel that immersed. But what I saw in this region was really, really amazing. So you could look around and see 3D objects. So I'm just kind of disappointed it hasn't gone farther. And I think the real way to do it is really hologram. So going back, everything goes back to Star Wars. Right. So, I mean, I'm waiting for TVs to just be holographic. Like, it should look like you're almost. You have a play in your house. And I'm waiting for. I feel like that's the future of media. And it's a 20, 21. We should have holograms by now. Like, we should be able to watch, like, you know, billions in, like, you know, in hologram. Right?
- [58:44]
Andrew Karima
Yeah.
- [58:45]
Joel Palo Thinkle
We're not there yet. So I don't know if you have any thoughts on. And sorry, I'm extending. I usually don't go longer than the hour, but. No, you're fine out here.
- [58:54]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, I can do this for days.
- [58:55]
Joel Palo Thinkle
But, like, have you thought about media and just 3D, more immersion, you know, holograms? I mean, I've always been thinking about that, and I think to do it, you need. I think you need, like some type of 3D projectors to be able to project the.
- [59:10]
Andrew Karima
They've done that.
- [59:11]
Joel Palo Thinkle
The hologram. They did that at. They did that at Coachella, like. Yeah, Coachella and La Palooza. Yeah, they had two.
- [59:17]
Andrew Karima
And that was so old. And if they could do it, then I know they can easily do it right now. Yeah. And I kind of agree with you. I have never even actually kind of thought of it that way that a quicker route to commercialization is.
- [59:33]
Joel Palo Thinkle
And there was a movie, there was a GI Joe movie, I forgot which one it was. But it was really cool because somebody would call somebody and they would actually talk to the hologram. So you would. Yeah, you know, the hologram would actually appear and it's like we're were talking but the person kind of teleported in as a hologram. Yeah, so that would be cool as well. But you know, we're not, we're not there yet. So. Yeah, I think media, media has not really evolved since the mobile phone. Right. You've got just mobile ads. I mean, the iPhone, to be honest, has not really changed since 2008. The form factor, it was big and then it went back to small. And it's small. It's actually small now. Again, they brought the small phone back and that phone actually looks like the iPhone. I think it was the iPhone 4. So they're just taking old models from 10 years ago and bringing them back.
- [60:29]
Andrew Karima
Personally, I think Apple is what they hated so much back in 1984. So that is where I kind of stay with that. But I mean, they still have some revolutionary tech and all around great UI ux. But yeah, honestly, I think my autocorrect has gone sufficiently worse and I think it dates back to like iOS 11. It's just I, I will sit there battling with my own autocorrect to send the message that I actually want to send. It's like it keeps on reverting back and I'm like, this is ridiculous.
- [61:06]
Joel Palo Thinkle
They're trying to force you to just speak in emoji. So that's what they're trying to do. Probably in memes, just use hieroglyphics.
- [61:15]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, yeah. Everything will come full circle. The Egyptians.
- [61:22]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah, I know, right? Yeah, exactly. Going back to the Egyptian time. But two more, two more things. So tell me about Dallas. Is that where KANTOS is based? If not, you know, just tell me about the ecosystem there, if that's evolving. We've had a lot of people from Houston recently, you know, be part of Sutton Capital's program. Yeah, love to. Maybe just hear, hear a quick update on Dallas and the ecosystem there and how it's evolving. And then, you know, maybe we can wrap up with, you know, if anybody has any questions, they can just shout them out and then, you know, I want to hear maybe a piece of advice that you have for us.
- [61:57]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, so I'm actually one, I'd like to say I'm actually in Austin. I don't know too much about Dallas ecosystem other than I've heard some great things too over there. Kantos is headquartered in San Francisco, but Ian still allowed me to come out here. Thought it was a good idea to improve an ecosystem. Actually, in the next weekend, we're trying to formulate this momentum and energy for unofficial Austin Tech Week.
- [62:26]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Oh, nice.
- [62:28]
Andrew Karima
I'm going to start to get to actually meet a lot of the people over here in this ecosystem. So I'm pretty excited about that. But no, in the two and a half weeks I've been here, I absolutely love it and I think there's a lot of opportunity out here to capture. I think it's similar to Miami. Just a tad bit better though.
- [62:48]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah.
- [62:48]
Andrew Karima
Because I think it's filled with some very hungry builders and people out here really coming to make something great.
- [62:55]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah.
- [62:56]
Andrew Karima
But yeah, the ecosystem over here is awesome and just, just the beginning of really getting induced into it.
- [63:05]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah. And they got the huge university there too. So just a lot of times the university ecosystem, there's, there's the whole, you know, demo day and the student funds and student syndicates and, and all that stuff. Are you seeing incubators? Yeah, the incubators as well. Tech transfer offices. You know, I've been highly involved in the emerging manager movement. Are you starting to see people in college start more syndicates or, you know, kind of in the, in the ecosystems that you're hanging out in, especially in Austin, you know, are you hearing people just want to start funds as much as they want to start companies?
- [63:43]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, I've heard about it and I don't know too many people directly, but every single time on Twitter, just people that I don't really know, you know, maybe like just retweeting, like, hey, I just launched my fund. But I've heard of a lot of dorm type funds. There was actually one fund that was named Dorm Fund. And yeah, so no, I've heard of this whole VC syndicate emerging manager at a very early stage, which is very surprising me because a lot of people didn't even know when me growing up, people didn't even know what VC was, other than like my friends who were like super dedicated to being one one day, you know, so it's. I think that's a good sign. I think that means venture capital is being democratized a little bit more. And a lot more people know about the people who actually help nurture and make decisions into the future of innovation, because that is what really private equity is. And venture capitalists tend to be the first ones to see what's going to happen and not to give it or take anything away from the founders, you know, because they're the actual builders and. But, you know, we get the first glance at a lot of these things.
- [64:55]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah. And, you know, you shared a lot of wisdom, so I really appreciate all that. It was really helpful. Anything else that you want to share from possibly a mentor that you'd like to have us take away with us? Anything from maybe a relative or a mentor that influenced you and something that's kind of stuck along with you along the way as a life lesson?
- [65:17]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, I think one was a lot of life lessons that I've learned recently that have really stuck with me have kind of come from Ian. But let's, let's, let's go something a bit deeper. And I think it's one of my best friend's dads, Scott, and he once I was like, hey, I don't want to. I'm not interested in golf. You know, we were going to play golf with him and all his friends, and he's like, that's interesting because all your friends are going to want to play golf. All your business partners, all your potential customers are going to want to play golf. So maybe you should just learn how to play golf whether you like it or not. And something that stuck from that is not. I did not become that much of a golf player. I did not start playing a lot of golf. But his point was there's a lot of things, you know, a lot of situations and a lot of social situations you typically, that you may not want to do, but a lot of other people that are in the ecosystems you want to be in, in the industries you want to be and want to do, so you should learn or to do it or at least have a positive behavior about trying to do it.
- [66:31]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Yeah, that's totally fair. I agree. And I think another piece to that which I experienced is, you know, one piece is not wanting to do something, but another piece is maybe not even taking the ideal job first. Like, if you want to get into vc, you know, you don't want to be a tech operator, you know, you don't want to work at a startup, but that could be one pathway. There could be a great venture fund that's in the middle of nowhere. So, yeah, you can't live in a really hip town and, you know, in either San Francisco or New York. But if you do get that experience in Idaho at a venture fund, you could, you could really use that experience to go to a big city. Later. But yeah, you got to put the time in and really, you know, really take. Take the value out of that opportunity, so.
- [67:24]
Andrew Karima
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
- [67:27]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Great. Well, this was awesome, Andrew. I really appreciate it. Sorry we ran over, but sorry, not at all. I was nerding out a little bit, so. Appreciate it.
- [67:35]
Andrew Karima
Yeah, no, I do this all the time. Every single, like podcast interview. I kind of always go overboard. But no, thank you very much. This was great to be on board and if anybody over here wants to reach out to me or talk to me about anything deep tech related or just wants to nerd out some more. Yeah, you can always find me on my Twitter or email.
- [67:56]
Joel Palo Thinkle
Andrea, again, please, please keep contributing to our Slack channel. I mean, Andrew has been really awesome just posting his content in our Slack. That's how I actually met Andrew. So thanks for, you know, always being a huge contributor to our community and sharing the educational knowledge. And I'm going to drop this recording in Slack as well, so hopefully can continue the. The. The sharing of knowledge. So appreciate it. Good night and thanks for Sam.