B (3:25)

Yeah, thank you, man. I appreciate that. I really appreciate it, man. How would you. I mean, so here's what I'm going to start off saying, like, in terms of my career path. And I'll just say it. In general, career paths are not linear. They're not a straight line. And so I think my career path is a testament to that. And one of the wisest people I know said that my wife. I was in between jobs. I've worked three different jobs at the same time. And so really, it just, it started back when versatility of trying to be. And kind of like, I've always enjoyed learning about people, how people work, how people operate, that kind of thing. And then I've always enjoyed having a mastery of like, linguistics. I'm bilingual. I've acquired some languages from Italian, Sundari, and. And it's always kind of been a part of who I am. And so really, that was like, kind of the foundation of, like, why I set off into the path I went to. I just. Curiosity has gotten me into those paths as well. And. And so, you know, I started off majoring in psych and English. I wanted to use both degrees. In another world, I would have gone and worked for the New Orleans Police Department. Decided against at that time. That was right before Katrina hit, a couple years before. So I think God was watching out for me, ventured off to la, which is where I was a private investigator. After being turned away by the LAPD because of. Not the lie detector test, not the psych test. It was the fact that I had some basketball injuries that prevented me from being able to run in boots again. God was looking out for me.

A (5:12)

Sure.

B (5:13)

I ventured back to Dallas, applying to grad school and trying to figure out, I think, I think in 22, 23, 24 years old, I call it the quarter life crisis that most people don't really talk about. And it's like, what do I do? Like what? You know. And no one really like helped prepare me for a career, like what I could do, you know, there was teaching, you know. And so when I was applying to grad school, my dad said like, he's like, that's great. I'm glad you're going to grad school. What if you don't get in? You know, and that's. I got a backup plan, I guess, of being a high school English teacher. I got accepted to NYU's program. I deferred it because I'd already accepted the job as the English teacher prior to that. And I was off. I coached basketball during that year, went to nyu, studied forensic psychology. My plan was to actually get a PhD in clinical psychology. And again, I hadn't lost sight or you know, of, of the idea of wanting to be a forensic psychologist. That's really what I wanted. I thought I wanted to be. And, and I was like, I'm not going to, you know, go from experience side and be police officer. And then, you know, I just figured I'll get the credentials and I'll do it that way. Yeah, I. Academia fell out of favor for me. Like I wasn't, I wasn't a fan. I found it to be too cutthroat and just not my speed. And so I changed plans and shifted and met. My wife was teaching in New York to offset some cost for tuition. And that time I applied to go work for West Point defense contractor and Research Performance Optimization did that. And then I got transferred over out to Naval Health Research center in San Diego. Spent quite a bit of my career out there and lived out there for about 15 years therein there were some layoffs that occurred and I was in transition. Found myself being deployed to Afghanistan kind of launched me into being ideal for that role. And I was gathering intelligence, as you mentioned. I was tasked with developing psychological leisure profiles of presidential candidates that I will say there's a footnote with that. I wasn't allowed to go outside the wire, which means I wasn't allowed to go outside the base and talk to the actual candidates. It was too, as they say, kinetic or too dangerous. And so I had to figure out a method of doing it from a distance. And so that was done based on some research that I founded and kind of, I actually reached out to two professors, one at Michigan and one at Syracuse, had some foundational research and doing that, their methodologies and. And luckily, you know, it went well and came back and again found myself kind of like all Right. What am I going to do? You know? And so, you know, I was. During this time, I become friends with a buddy of mine. And the thing that got me thinking is, like, I saw him. Every single time I saw him, he was wearing a T shirt, board shorts, flip flops.

A (8:27)

Yeah.

B (8:28)

And I was like, dude, like, what do you do, man? Because I was like. Because he's, like, so laid back, and he was like, 2:00 clock in the afternoon, coming, like, just, you know, ambling up. And he's like, I'm a head hunter. I was like, I had no. I had no idea what that was. And he. I was like. I was like, what is that? He's like, I find people for jobs. He's like, it's not rocket science. It just takes, like, hard work and discipline and resilience and. And the more and more he talked about it, and when I asked him about kind of like, hey, what, you know, what's. What are the earnings look like? And he's like, you know, 325 and a good year kind of thing. And with three kids, I'm like, I could. I was like, I can. I can manage that. Like, you know, And I was like, just how hard can it be? And so I basically, I called all the recruiting firms in San Diego and I just. I pitched them. I pitched them myself. And I knew why they wouldn't want to hire me. They were all caught off guard. They were all like, you know, like, really, like, you know. Do you have any sales experience? No. Do you have any recruiting experience? No. Like, why do you want to do this? And I had. And I was prepared for that. And I got. I got about six. Six interviews. I got one job offer, and I. And I took it and I excelled at it. And I. I loved it. I loved it, Joel. Like, I really, really enjoy what I do. I still love it. Still in love with it. It's. There's something about. People may say recruiting is like, selling or sales, that kind of thing. And I'm like, there's nothing like manifesting something that's going to be better, like, life changing for somebody else. Like, that to me is like, all those things that God prevented me from doing led me to what I'm doing today, and there's nothing like it. And I truly believe that I do God's work. Like, he works through me in this regard because my, My. What I'm trying to do is just is. Is improve the person's life who. With whom I come in touch. That's. That's really what I'm trying to do is like make, have them be better off coming.

A (10:39)

So David, David, not to pivot from you to Will Smith, you know, whatever anybody has to say about Will Smith, but, but Will Smith, you know, I saw something in my feed about a year ago, this is before the slap, but essentially, but essentially, you know, Will was like, look, I, I've had everything since I was in my 20s, right? I take all my homies from Philly shopping and we go to the Gucci store and you know, I had Lamborghinis and everything. But you know, I still felt empty, you know, because it's like lonely at the top. But like, you know, he felt the most happiest essentially when he was helping people. So I think, you know, that, that really at the end of the day when you're, you know, let's say you work in private equity, you're working in venture, if you're screwing a bunch of people over, there's only, you know, the money that you earn, you know, tricking people or whatever is only going to get you so far. But if you're creating impact, if you're investing in impactful ventures, that's making the world a better place. If you're investing in AI, that's, you know, removing, you know, half of the friction for a workflow, you know, then I feel like there's huge for them. And as, you know, as a human being, I think that's what it is. And I think with the career journey, I think a lot of people in my audience, you know, feel the same way. I mean, they're, they're, they've gotten into their current role oftentimes through non traditional pathways, right? You think you have to go to Harvard or you think you have to go to, you have to be part of a country club. But I've seen, you know, people that come from the military. I mean, there was a guy that I knew, that I met, you know, over the holidays. This person was a retired marine and now he manages a couple billion of assets, you know, as a, as an ria, right. And I think if you can figure out what you enjoy doing, what you are good at, like, you know, kind of like how you found, I think that's, that's a godsend, right? What, so you talked about the quarter life crisis. There's a whole group of people that are kind of in the midlife crisis, right? They're, they're in their late 50s. They are looking to kind of make a change. They have maybe 80% of the skills, but there's maybe 20% skill, but skill gap to maybe switch from private equity to venture or vice versa. So, you know, tell me a little bit about the people that you've helped that are kind of a bit older and they're, they feel, they feel that they're aged out. You know, how are they kind of rethinking their career and, you know, what's some guidance would you give to them?

B (13:05)

It's an interesting question. You know, I'm not saying this is a one size fits all, but the thing is you got to come back to like, the core of like, what is what speaks to people in general. Right. There are core principles and values that most people will agree on. In terms of what is, like what kind of charisma somebody has, like what. Why are we drawn to that person. There are these intangibles that occur. Right. And you can toss out, I think, the common nominators of like, all right, someone is authentic, someone who's, who's real, someone who's like resilient and gritty, someone who's tenacious, someone who is hard working. Right. These are all things that have to be demonstrated right now.

A (13:56)

What's, what's kind of a common thread that you've seen with people that get placed, Right. You've got, you've got a hire, you know, you've got a hiring manager. You obviously, you know, actively working on placements. So what's kind of that common thread? You know, maybe on the soft skills and also on the hard skills.

B (14:12)

That's a good question. So here's the thing. Most, the first thing that's going to happen is like, are they qualified? Do they have the technical skills to get to the person that they're interviewing with? Right. That's, that's going to be necessary. Right. You can be like, you know, all these other soft, like these intangibles have those, but if you can't do the job, you're not. I mean, you can't.

A (14:34)

And let's walk through some of those. Right. So for private equity, I'm assuming it's just showcasing your ability to source and screen deals. Probably going through a couple, you know, walk me through the interview process now. Right. Is it two, three rounds and is there like a case study at the end?

B (14:48)

Oh, man, it just depends. Like, I mean, you have, you have. And to be quite honest, like, I don't work with the big boys because, because of the fact that their process is like six months long.

A (14:58)

Sure. And a lot of times they have like, 20 different recruiters. And a lot of times they prefer to just, you know, have people just sign up on the website. I interviewed at Goldman and It was like, 20 is like 20, 25 rounds of interviews essentially, right? I was there like three, four times. After a while I was like, tired of going there because it was just.

B (15:18)

Like big private equity reminds me a lot of big law. And I've recruited in big law. And the reason I stopped recruiting as much in big law was for the. You said something very poignant, which was having so many different recruiters working on the same job and just not to go into the weeds about that. But just as an example, like big law, one of the things that turned me off is like, you have to like sign up through their portal, you have to sign their agreement. There's no negotiations in good faith of like, no, no, it's got to be this way or highway kind of thing. There's none of that stuff. Right. And so, and so really what I found myself is I found myself not liking working with them or working in the industry because of how I was being treated. Like, I'm just a number. And if they're doing that with me, that's indicative of how they're treating their cannabis. Now I can't do big law. I'm not. I didn't go to Harvard, I didn't go to Yale or anything like that. So they treat those candidates a little bit slightly better because they're wanted. It's the most elitist, one of the most elitist industries I've ever worked in. Private equity, big, at least the big side, like tends to be that way. It's not as prevalent. But that being said, the same. And ironically, big law will move if it's like a pinpointed right candidate. Like, they will move. But all that time that it takes to get to that point, I mean, it's a long time. And then versus private equity, you know, big private equity. They are, like you said, it's 20 interviews plus it's six months long, four months. And then you get to the point where like, oh yeah, you're down to, you know, last, you know, two candidates, three candidates, and you don't get selected. And then you're like, what? And, and so, and I understand that whole, like, emotional process because it takes me back to like when I was applying for the lapd, it was a four month process. It was like you just do this, like get this interview, like that kind of thing. And, and I just, I asked myself on behalf of the candidates, like, do you really have time to do all of that, to be wholly invested in that? And on the flip side of that, here's the thing in terms of getting to your question about what the processes are. I work with the firms that are going to be less bureaucratic, that are going to be more decisive, that are going to be, yes, they're going to have prestige, yes, they want similar things, but they're not going to be at the same scale as like Blackstone or BlackRock or etc. Right. They're not. They're just not. And so, and that's okay because as you know, it's like, it's, it's as Malcolm Gladwell said, you know, in one of his books, you know, the Tipping Point, or maybe it's outliers, I forget which one. But he said like, like, you want, he's like, you gotta ask yourself, do you want to be a big fish in a small pond or a small fish in a big pond? Like, do you want, like, which one do you prefer? And I myself, by like evidence of going to Loyola, which is a small school in New Orleans, nyu, which is not that big of a school. I mean, it is what it is. But like, I like being a big fish in a small pond. I like having, I like being able to affect and have influence. And like, and the advice I get, I literally get paid for giving advice, Joel. Like, that's like, who can say that? My kids are like, what do you mean that, like, and, and it's just, it's just like, if, if I'm going to give advice, you know, it's about like, can I, is it going to be well founded? Is it going to make it better for you? Like, I don't do it just to do it. So in terms of the processes, so I mean, in terms of smaller firms, they're, they're more, they're more agile. So I mean, yes, they'll do, they'll do the case study. Yes, they'll do, you know, interview with the founder, with the team. You know, they, they'll do a case study. In between, they might do a test, that kind of thing. Like, but you know, eventually it's, it's not as long. You're looking at probably like, you know, maybe a four week turnaround.

A (19:06)

So when you say an interview with the founder and the team, so like, let's say you're, let's say you're a candidate, you know, you're, you've built some skills and you're applying to the role. You've kind of gotten some chops in terms of sourcing deals, you know, bringing in your own deals. Right. So when you say interview with the team, are you saying a portfolio, Is this a portfolio company of a private equity firm? And then you're having the hiring the potential candidate kind of talk to one of their portfolio companies?

B (19:39)

No.

A (19:40)

Or the founder, or the founder of the private equity firm.

B (19:42)

I'm talking about the founder of private equity firm. Or on the venture side, it's more. It's typically more the founder of the venture capital side. So I found myself working with the heads of VCs and then eventually as I work with them, then they say, hey Dave, can you help our portfolio company kind of thing. Yeah, like that's how it's always started or I'll get referred to another one or that kind of thing. And that's how it evolves for me.

A (20:10)

Because they have a role. I don't know if you've looked at this role, but we've been getting a lot of interest in the operating partner role. So essentially you're kind of this. You're kind of like a jack of all trades, right. You're coming into a private equity firm. The private equity firm has several companies that they're actively supporting. Right. I mean, when you think about private equity, it's majority ownership, so they have an active seat at the table. That's why they own 80% of the company and they just don't have the bandwidth. Right. The GP at a private equity firm, you know, if you think about a firm like Thoma Bravo. Right. Their whole focus is gathering assets, so they don't have the bandwidth to go out and support the go to market strategy of every single portfolio company. So they've looked at this role and I've seen a lot more interest in this space in terms of someone who's got maybe digital transformation experience, someone who's scaled companies, someone who's worked on several operating teams to come in. And they kind of have an investor lens, but they also come in and they're kind of overseeing this portfolio. More on the fulfillment and operating strategic lens. But they're also kind of on the investment team. Right. Because they're looking at the numbers and making sure that when you report these numbers to the LPs, it kind of makes sense and it ties into the operating strategy. But I would assume that role part of the interview process. Look, you interview with the GP at the private equity fund to kind of make sure that you have the investment chops and you know what you're talking about. But then it may be good to get feedback from some of their operating companies because those people may be working with that person down the line, right?

B (21:47)

Yeah, yeah, eventually. Like, so if it's an operating partner for the portfolio company, it's going to be a different process. Yes, they'll probably get brought in by the, by the PE firm, you know, as an introduction, by way of introduction but event. But the PE firm is going to like a lot. You know, they're going to say, hey, that's, that's an interview. They're going to decide if they want that operating partner or not. And with them it's going to be a different process in that regard. I was talking more specifically in relation to direct with BE's or with BCS with the GPS.

A (22:16)

Yeah. So can you talk through maybe the delineation or maybe the differentiation with the, you know, from a candidate standpoint, they're coming in, they're working with you that journey for like maybe VC and then maybe maybe the slight difference for private equity in terms of like the hiring process. I'm assuming it's a little more technical on, on the private equity side versus vc. I'm assuming. Right.

B (22:40)

It can be, but I would say that I've, I've worked with VCs where they do similar things to PEs, where they, they, they here, here's a case study, you know, and then they have, they have the candidate present. So I mean it's pretty similar. I mean there's like it's going to be on the VC side, it's going to be more towards like I think diligence of the actual, you know, investment of the company kind of thing, you know, versus the sourcing transaction of a deal. Like it's going to be different in terms of M and a skills versus the VC side thing.

A (23:12)

Yeah. What people don't understand too all the time is, you know, VC in my personal opinion is still part of private equity. Right. Everything is still private equity. And then under private equity, even if you're an allocator, you have a certain mandate to private equity. And then under private equity, if you're allocating to private equity that breaks out specifically into early stage venture, then there's growth equity. But growth equity is still a blurred line between late stage venture and it could be a blend of private equity. Some of the late stage investing is a hybrid of debt and equity investing and then buyout. You know, in my mind a lot of people assume, you know, buyout is private equity, but all of this is still private markets. So I think to your point, it's the same thing. You know, it's, it's really the, the attitude, the grit and like maybe just the, the cohesiveness that you have with the team. The, the vibe that you have. And then I think on the technical side, you're looking at some of the different financial models and case studies that are kind of relevant to their, their stage and focus area, I'm assuming, right?

B (24:23)

Yeah, totally. I mean, and you're right. I mean, and that's a really good point. Like, I, I kind of look at it as like all private markets. Right?

A (24:30)

Yeah. So you look at it the same way.

B (24:32)

Yeah. And it, and it's. And you kind of like. But you people have different, different ideas of what P.E. is versus B.C. and. Sure. And you're right. When you break it down in terms of early stage or pre seed. Early stage. And then you have the series abc. Right. You know, I think the delineation that I tend to make in my mind is like, okay, here, here are the companies VCs are really looking at trying to get unicorns, right. To eventually go through the process of getting my po. Whereas I think of PE of more like, you know, they're buying up like, you know, professional services firms, accounting firms, and they're trying to spin them off and make money off like they're already producing assets, so to speak. Right?

A (25:09)

Yeah.

B (25:10)

And so you have. And not that VC aren't investing in operating assets, you know, that you see series A, B, C companies they're operating. It's just a different, I think a different mentality like in terms of what people think of PE being versus vc, that kind of thing.

A (25:29)

Yeah, no, absolutely. So, you know, we've had hundreds of general partners at private equity and venture funds on our podcast. So they always give their own 2 cents of what they look for in terms of the hard and soft skills. But it's really interesting to hear your perspective, right. As kind of the gatekeeper. What are some of your specific filtering criteria? Because you probably get a lot of inbound from both sides of the market. Right. There's people that are looking for talent and then there's people that are looking for obviously their next career move. So maybe, maybe talk through that like in terms of, you know, from the candidate side, you know, when you get a bunch of inbound, you know, what's kind of the, what are the things that you look for? Maybe soft skills and technical skills.

B (26:13)

Well, I'll start, here's what I'll start with. This in terms of working with Nate. So it all comes back to process terrain. And what I mean by that is there's a way that I work specifically because I know how this is going to go. I know the patterns of behavior in this iteration that occurs. Right. And so for me, it's going to be, I'm going to pick up whether this, the person that I'm talking to is coachable, Will they work my process? Will they? You know, and this is, this is really from the time that I'm trying to set up a call with them, right. To the time that I'm preparing them for an interview. Right. Or suggesting that I prepped them for an interview. And the ones that are receptive to really being coached and list and listen to the process that I have and like, and really be humble enough to be like, you know, even though they're, they're, they're high level executives, you know, they're like, oh, this is great, Dave, that kind of thing. Or you know, sometimes like, yeah, this is, you know, good. But they, they are, even those high level executives are willing, the ones that are willing to listen and be coached and take it as, you know, maybe they already have some of those tools in there too. Yeah, but, but they're willing to accept it, Right. Versus the ones that are kind of smug and like, yeah, okay, whatever. And then they kind of want to get off. Right.

A (27:29)

Some of them have an ego and they're just like, okay, David, we'll just get me the job, you know, hook me, connect me with a person. What's some of the typical. Maybe just, you know, some blind examples. What's some general pieces of feedback that you've given just so we can think about that too, that you've given to kind of help people? Like, what are some of the things, like is it kind of to make a bunch of revisions on the resume? Is it to kind of prepare for things mentally?

B (27:54)

I mean, sometimes the resume is. Needs revision and we go through it. I mean, I've had, I've had a really good candidate who worked through it and I even, you know, in this day and age, I mean, I'm not ashamed to say it, but like I said, hey, use Chachi PT man, get ChatGPT, you know, so you don't have to like spend, you know, but like, see if you can tweak it here and there. He was receptive to that. There has been in other cases I've had the complete opposite where I had a candidate who was really obtuse and I Was like, hey, I'd like to. When are you available this week before interview for me to do an interview prep? He's like, interview prep? Why do I need that? He's like, I'll just talk. I got it, Dave. You know, like, I'm like, he's just.

A (28:32)

Like, line me up with the meetings.

B (28:33)

Yeah. And then the day of, I mean, this candidate, you know, is an example of who I don't want to work with ever is, you know, the day of, he'd already been sent the information for the interview, for the zoom call, et cetera. And on the day of, you know, a couple hours before, he's like, hey, can you send him an invite? I can't find it, or I don't have it, or it just the lack of preparation, the lack of willing to prepare, the lack of. I had to twist his arm to do it. An after debrief, you know, and then, and then, even then with the debrief that I had, you know, not Dr. Rag on this guy, but this is a prime example. Someone that really, you know, didn't move forward because the CEO picked up on. And I called the CEO and I specifically called him, said, hey, look, I'm so sorry. Like, you need to pass on this guy. I got even before he told me. He's like, dave, I'm passing. Like, I was like, hey, I'm so sorry. I'm withdrawn him from consideration. Like, he's not like, do not waste any more time on him. But that was really tell. I gave him a chance on the debrief to move forward to like, get his interest, garner that. And he was really tight lipped about just his feedback was really inauthentic. Unwilling to do that. And so on the flip side, for clients, again, I work a certain way. I charge what I charge. My time is worth just as much as theirs. I have a value that I propose and that I can offer.

A (29:56)

Yeah.

B (29:57)

And you're either going to partner up with me because you see that and you acknowledge that or you don't, hey, good luck to you. And I'm unapologetic about that because I know what I'm worth. And so going back to candidates, they sometimes are overly humble and don't know what they're worth, or they do, but they're unwilling to brag about themselves. Yeah.

A (30:22)

It's two sides of this spectrum, right? You got. I mean, look, I mean, unfortunately, unfortunately, you need to have kind of the ability to be confident. You know, that's. I've revised what the formula for Success is like, almost every year. Right. And I used to always just say, sales is everything. Right. Oh, you got to be able to sell yourself, sell your skills. But, you know, if you really tweak that a little bit, it is the confidence. Like, you know, if you can't believe in yourself, then nobody else can really believe that you're the right candidate either. Right. If you have. Because people can smell the insecurity.

B (30:54)

And to that point, Joe, like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna treat. What you're saying is like, I'm not saying. I wouldn't disagree with you that sales is everything, but here's the thing. What is sales? Right. If you ask someone what sales is, you might get. Someone who doesn't sell, you might get a different incident than my definition. And my definition is very simple. Sales is the ability and willingness to understand what the other person wants and giving it to them.

A (31:21)

Sure.

B (31:22)

That's what sales is to me. So basically, what does that really mean? If you break it down, you have to understand what the need and the problem is. And then you gotta have the ability and the resolve to sit in the confidence to say, I can solve that for you. And here's. And here's why.

A (31:38)

Yeah.

B (31:38)

And here's how I can do it for you. Right. And that, to me is what. Is what ultimately becomes the value proposition in terms of the. In terms of the candidates selling themselves.

A (31:49)

Yeah.

B (31:50)

In the interview. Right. So you're right. I mean, it is confidence. But if you think about what the word confidence is, right? It's. It comes from Latin with faith. Right? There's faith, Right.

A (32:00)

Yeah.

B (32:01)

And that's a. That's a slippery, like, word in terms of what it actually means, Right.

A (32:05)

Sure.

B (32:05)

It's. You know, I always think about the. I was thinking about the last scene of the third Indiana Jones, you know, where he's. You know, he's got that giant chasm, right? And he's. And he's got to just take a leap, literally, a leap of faith on the invisible plank. And then he throws a stand. I remember that.

A (32:24)

Raiders. Raiders of the Lost Ark. Right?

B (32:26)

Yeah.

A (32:26)

Yeah, that was a good one.

B (32:27)

Yeah, it's. Yes. Yeah. And so I always use that as an analogy. I was like, you just gotta. You gotta have that leap. You gotta. You gotta do it. And so anyways, so that's. That in terms of, you know, those two sides of it, like, the candidates who succeed are the ones who prepare, who understand what the needs are, and the problem is in terms of what the company needs to be done in their role, and then they understand how they're offering, how their value is going to be of substance to my client, to the company, and then the ability to make that value proposition really concrete is going to be crucial.

A (33:13)

Sure.

B (33:14)

And then on the flip side, in terms of clients, I always say, look, I asked them the question, what does success look like for this person?

A (33:23)

Sure.

B (33:24)

What are the expectations? What do they got to do in six months? Like, if you, if you fast forward a year and we're giving them a great review, what does that entail? And those kind of questions, like, gets them thinking. And this is the beginning of the search when I'm contemplating taking on the search with them. And sometimes you'd be surprised they don't know, right?

A (33:44)

Yeah.

B (33:44)

And I say, well, look, if you don't know, how is the candidate going to know? And how am I going to help you sell this? Because anyone who's good enough to do this job is going to want to know that.

A (33:54)

Absolutely. What are some things that people should prepare for in terms of the interview? And also just mentally, before, you know, the first round, the second round, how you know with these, with these firms that you work with, how many rounds? Normally is it like my experience, based on, you know, kind of the hiring managers that have kind of come through our platform, I mean, it's usually sometimes like three to four rounds. It's like the first round, it's kind of like informational. It's like hr. It's like, hey, tell me what you're doing, Give me what your salary range is. And then it's kind of like one or two people on the team. And then it's kind of like a case study. And then sometimes it's like a presentation with like a deal and then like a spreadsheet or they give you some type of case study. Similar.

B (34:38)

I would say a lot of the companies I work with.

A (34:40)

Yeah.

B (34:42)

Do not have hr. So I'm. So I'm working with smaller companies. And, and so really I would say that I'd say three to four rounds is still probably, you know, the way it goes usually with. It's usually probably with, with the, like the hiring authority. Like the person directly. This person will directly work with.

A (35:03)

Yeah.

B (35:03)

Thereafter, it'll probably be with some teammates or peers that this person will work with. And then, and then finally it'll probably be with the CEO in between. There, there might be like some like a case study for them to repair and then have that be part of the presentation with the team or with CEO within Panel kind of thing, it just, it just varies based on company to company and the role. So. Sure. But in terms of like, preparing, I would say, you know, my, My, my prep is I, I treat. And I. My analogy with every candidate when preparing them. Preparing them is, this is like a date, okay? Nobody, like, I don't know about you. My dad didn't really teach me how to date. Now, maybe it was my fault because I wasn't receptive. And just like my kids. My kids don't think I ever date anyone beside my wife. So maybe that's the case. But. But the point is, is that this is like going on a date, right? And there are things that you do and things that you don't do on a date.

A (35:57)

Well, I mean, you don't, you don't talk about if you, you know, God forbid, if you, you know, everybody has a past, but if you had a really toxic relationship. That's probably not your opener, right? When you, when you.

B (36:08)

The motivation of the candidate. Like, my clients always ask, why is this person willing to move or willing to make a move? You know, and so that. And I come with the truth. But a lot of times with candidates, before I present them or go forward with them, I want to. When I'm trying to understand, are they running away from something.

A (36:24)

Yeah.

B (36:25)

Desperate. Or are they running to something. Right. There's a big difference, right?

A (36:30)

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

B (36:32)

And so now, that being said, in this job dating world, right, generally speaking, there are five main motivations that people make change. And I use an acronym. It's called clams Challenge, location advancement, money, stability. And I can break it down further if you want. What I'm listening to is in my interview or my screening of a candidate is I'm listening to, what is it that's missing from. For them? What are they not getting where they are? You know, in some cases, they're getting everything. They're really passive and, you know, and they're like, I really got a really good day here. I'll say, well, I'm not trying to pry you out of it. It's like, well, you know, this could be. I'm like, so when I ask them the magic wand question, what. What would you change if I didn't? Then it's. They start to open up, we have a conversation, right? And then that's what we lead with, with the client, you know, because that's what's missing now. I think that once they, Once that's divulged, then going back to the sales point, right. Then I Can I can sell my client? If they can match and they can solve this missing piece for them, sure. Right. And then that's how that occurs.

A (37:49)

Out of those five, what do you, what's kind of the biggest one that you see as a trend? Out of chat, you know, out of challenge, location, advancement, money and stability.

B (37:59)

I would say that. Right. That it would be a combination of. It just depends on the market. But sometimes stability lends towards like hey, they don't have faith in the company going in certain directions. Not like, you know, they see playoffs come in like for instance, meta cutting, you know, 15 of the workforce. Right. So, so but I would, that's hard to say. I would say that it's a combination of like advancement, challenge, stability.

A (38:24)

Right.

B (38:25)

Sometimes now advancement is it speaks to, you know, is it too flat for them to move up? Is it, is their boss too young for them to retire out? You know, is it, you know, in terms of moving up, are they. And then an advancement kind of like they, you know, again, coincide with challenge because if they're stagnant, they're unchallenged. Right. So again they're looking for more which kind of goes in with advancement. So they kind of go intertwined. That's I guess the art of pulling that out, so to speak.

A (38:58)

Yeah, no, that makes sense. I mean there's a real interesting point where people, they just, you know, they've been at a firm for like maybe four or five years and you know, there isn't probably a risk of losing your job, but the bigger risk is just becoming stagnant and not growing and becoming the next version of who you want to be.

B (39:21)

Right.

A (39:21)

And I think that's, it's not like an urgent matter, right. It's, it's more proactive and it's interesting to meet people that kind of think that way and think growth minded that want to really just make sure they're on the right path. And you know, there was, there was something that I saw in my feed that, that I resonated with really. I mean when you think about life and when you think about your career, your ladder is leaned up against a tree and that tree is a different height. Right. So that height could be worth 250 grand or it could be worth, you know, maybe close to a million if it's a little more entrepreneurial. But like that, that ladder that you lay your tree on, you know, that you're kind of on that tree and that's kind of the maximum height that that tree would go on. So you Know, you could either stay on that tree and kind of just accept that that's the tallest that you're going to climb or, or maybe just kind of swivel like the ladder around and find another tree that, that has the same roots that you have. But you know, maybe there's a path to kind of climb a bit higher. But like, you know, a lot of people have said this money isn't everything. It's kind of the combination of everything, right? Having good culture, good, you know, good people that you're working with, that, that makes a huge difference. And you know, it's, it's really interesting to kind of think through that, the culture and, and you know, it's making sure around, you're around good people that are going to set you up for success.

B (40:36)

And I'll add to that or I'll kind of like, you know, like, oh, so career satisfaction, what I found is it lends towards three main aspects or three attributes that people ultimately seeking or feeling, right? And that is, that's mastery. Are they really good at what they do?

A (40:54)

Right.

B (40:54)

Are they like, they feel confident that they feel like they can do it? That's. Well, there's autonomy, right? Are they trusted to do what they're supposed to do? Are they trusted or do they have or they believe? Are they like, do they, are they empowered? Right. The last one is meaning, right? And it goes back to like the people they're working with. Obviously that, that's part of it, like what they're doing, right? The mission. Right. A lot of the current generation is more mission driven. Like, you know, what is it doing in terms of that? But really, again, it comes back to like, do they, do they believe what they're doing matters? Right? And, and so all those things, you combine those, those kind of attributes, so to speak, or qualities of a career into the motivations. Right. Point though. They, again, they all intersect. They kind of like kind of intertwine and, and when you break it down in terms of, you know, I guess these equality, what do you want to call them? Like, it makes sense, right? It just, just. And when I break it down that way, people are like, oh, okay, you know, and so you start thinking about different structure. And one of the pivotal questions I ask is like, okay, what are your short term goals? What are your midterms? What are your long term? Right? And sometimes people haven't thought about that, you know, because sometimes these candidates are as young as 28 or 35, they're 40. Right. And you know, it just depends on the Duration of their life depends where they are with their family, with the family life. You know, that those all. And then personal and career, they intertwined, they really intersect, and they really influence each other as well.

A (42:35)

So I, you know, this, this is something that I still resonate with. I mean, look, I change careers every two to three years, and that was the only way for me to get a higher title and a higher, you know, pay. Right. I would parlay my past experience and negotiate and ask for a lot more money. And, And I used my skills of kind of what you said, look, thinking about what they're looking for. And I would spend a lot of time tailoring my talents to kind of fit into kind of what they're looking for. So it's much more personalized. But what are your thoughts on that? Do you think that's still relevant? There was a survey from maybe four or five years ago that actually looked at the data, and there's people that have stayed at companies for 10 years. Especially when you think about these companies that are in Georgia or Iowa, those companies, that's like the only company that the entire city works for, Right. So they have to work there. And essentially the entire city works at that big, huge, you know, Caterpillar plant or massive media company. Right. So Walmart. Exactly. In Arkansas. So. So those people, they've stayed at that firm for 10, 15 years. And if you've left, God forbid, you know, you're, you're, you have like the scarlet letter on your chest because you're, like, unstable. Right. But then they looked at the data, and there was a bunch of Gen Z's and even millennials that have kind of climbed up and made a lot more money, and they did an analysis, and there was a huge loss in financial growth and wealth from staying at a company. Right. So what's your opinion, in your view, with just looking at a lot of these candidates and also looking at the hiring manager's perspective of job hoppers, is two years, you know, normal? You know, is it a red flag if somebody leaves in a year or nine months? You know, tell me about that.

B (44:28)

Job hoppers, you know, is. So it's interesting question because, yes, the short answer is like, clients are always saying, I don't want a job hopper. I don't want someone who's, you know, going from that. That kind of thing. I want someone who's stable. And so really, you know, when you ask them to find that, they're like, I don't know. And so what I'll say to that is Is the rule of thumb is no more than three jobs in 10 years. Okay.

A (44:54)

That's not bad.

B (44:55)

Right? So if you think about it, that's three years, three years, four years. Right. You know, or four, four, two, whatever you want to say how you want to cut it, right? So ideally that's, that's the way that I would see it. Now, that being said, right, It. It, you know, three years is still.

A (45:10)

A long time though. But, but you're kind of saying just kind of from the lens of the recruiter, go, like, hey, wait a minute, this person was here for a year and a half and he moved like three times. E. Right. Because what they're thinking is they want continuity as well. Right.

B (45:22)

It also depends on, on the, on the path of the, of the. It just depends. And I'll caveat it with this. I've worked in different industries, right. And. And so it just depends on. It kind of depends on the industry as well. For instance, law. It's not as uncommon to like, jump from law firm to law firm, per se.

A (45:41)

Yeah.

B (45:43)

It's, you know, it. They'll start kind of, you know, looking at why this person, you know, going, you know, but, but that's not as uncommon. And then, and then the other thing is if the story tells, right? If there's a. If, if there's enough authenticity in the story. And this is. I always start with my candidates with their story. Like, they always want to know what I'm working on, what I have, what my client, you know, that kind of stuff. And I say, look, I, I'll get to that, but just tell me your story. Like, I think there's an, there's a, it's incredible power of your, what your story is and what it's been. And I'd like to understand that first before I can help. Before I can help you, you know, like, I'd like to understand your story, how you got to where you are, your progressions, why you made your moves. And then I want to understand what, what are the needs and wants, you know, for the reason why we're talking. And then I want to. Then if the, if the, the clients I have match up, we can discuss. If not, I'll leverage your time and I'll say, I got nothing for you. Yeah.

A (46:43)

What's a, what's a good template for storytelling? Like, how many minutes? What are, you know, do you talk about your, your career path, your, I guess, where you lived? I guess. What, what should you say and what shouldn't you say and how minutes long should it, how many minutes long should it be?

B (46:58)

That's a, that's a good question. I would say it's gotta be compelling, it's gotta be engaging. So I mean, I think, I think but on the, on the basics of it, you have to be able to tell a story where you have a beginning, middle and end. And from there you have to understand transitions.

A (47:13)

Yeah.

B (47:13)

You know, I was here, this is why I did here. And you have to like take the person through the story of like how you started, why you started and then, and then, and then the reason is that you decided, all right, this is why I pivoted over here. This is why I pivoted here. And those. It has to make sense. If it doesn't make sense or if it's not logical or pragmatic, then, or if it's not relatable, then it's going to be hard to lack a better word. Sell that. Right.

A (47:41)

Sure.

B (47:42)

It's got, it's got to be like, you know, there's like, you go back to, you know, there are times like when I was working in oil and gas, right. They were laid off. You know, they're, they're in 2012, 11, like 07 to 12. Right. You have a time when gas was like volatile oil and gas. So, so when I got into it in 13, the 7 to 10 year person was really like, it was hard to find that person because a lot of them got laid off. They weren't around.

A (48:10)

Yeah, right.

B (48:11)

And, and so when you, and so whenever there's a gap right. In that time frame, it makes sense. Yeah, right. You see what I'm saying? So like it's not always so there's that goes back, that goes to like, hey, what's in the question of like, hey, what about being laid off? What does that look like? That kind of stuff. It again, it always just depends on does it make sense.

A (48:33)

I think it's also important, you know, how people position, why they're looking for a change as well. Right. That's probably going to be the first question. What I've seen is people that kind of smoothly position why they're leaving and what their motivations are. A lot of times it's, you know, if you can mention that you're excited to kind of take the skills that you had previously and bring that to a new organization, it's kind of a little more assumptive to kind of just get a preview of what that person would look like working for your firm. But again, in your opinion, are there any pieces of recommendation that you'd share in terms of how people handle that question and what they shouldn't say. Kind of like dating. Right. You don't want to mention all of your red flags. Right. On the first call. You don't have to over share, but you know, trying to position it in the right way.

B (49:24)

Well, yeah, I would say first and foremost, it's the truth. How you, how you disseminate or like the truth is really up to the person. I mean, I can coach the person. A lot of times I will tell their story or I will kind of guide them through and they're like, wow, Dave, how do you know? I'm like, I'm new. This is just off the cuff. I haven't prepared anything. So you're going to prepare. This can be way better from you. But really it's, it's like again, it goes back to the adage of like they're running to versus running away. Right. And, or the, you know, the framing of that is very paramount.

A (49:58)

And I'd say the hiring manager wants somebody that is running to something versus just because, because they may just be worried that, that, that the same thing may happen to you. Right. And like maybe nine months, like, oh, you know what? They're probably going to do the same thing in my firm. They're going to just run away and find something else.

B (50:13)

That's a very natural inclination. Yeah. And you want to assuage at the same time. So really. And also like the running away from it tends to be like desperation. Right. And so desperation is sensed. We can sense it and we're, we are repulsed by it for the most part. Nobody wants a desperate person. And so it, so when you, when you're like, hey, you know, I wasn't looking when Dave called. You know, I, he, he told me about the opportunity and I couldn't say no to it. You know, really, this is, this is what's missing in my career right now, my job. This is what, you know, what he told me that you guys are doing is really exciting. And what I believe this, you know, in terms of advancing or whatever, it goes back to these motivations. Right. Kind of framing it. And then that's going to speak to the hiring authority. Right. And that's going to be again, it's going to be a fit of like, you know, what they want and the person. And then you know what this can. I want to send a client or company to go to.

A (51:10)

Yeah, well, we got about four minutes left, so just going to the other side. You know what are some best practices for, you know, hiring managers and, you know, GPS to work with you? Because we have a huge community of fund managers. Some of them are emerging fund managers, too. They're looking to kind of bring on talent. So what are some things that they should be prepared for? Obviously, they need a job description. You know, it's crazy, man. I mean, back in the day, I would just see, like, spelling errors on job descriptions. And sometimes you just. You feel like somebody just copied somebody else's job description and just posted it. Right. For like an analyst or principal role. But what are just kind of the things that you're seeing on the. On the hiring manager side? And what do they need to make sure they do so they're successful as well?

B (51:54)

Well, so I. There are two sides of the same coin, really. Right. So the same things that I would sell a candidate are, you know, to a GP or to a client is like, look, what makes you different? Why? My question to you is, like, why should someone quit their job and come work for you?

A (52:09)

Yeah.

B (52:10)

And they start talking about the firm and this. No, no, no, no, no. Why should someone quit a job and come work for you? Joel? Like, sure, people don't work for companies. They work for people. Yeah, right. And so. So then they're like, oh, okay. So they. So really, it's about like, all right, who are they as a manager? Who are they as, like a people leader? Who are they as a visionary? Right. These have to come out some kind of way in their marketing of the firm, of themselves, that kind of thing. So in the job description, I always encourage, like, hey, you can put down the qualifications and responsibilities of what you're looking for in a profile, but nowhere in here does it tell them why they should come work for you.

A (52:48)

That's a good point. What's a good example? Like, do you have an example of someone that highlighted that? Well. Or like, maybe their story. And again, you don't have to name their names, but just kind of.

B (52:56)

Oh, I actually do. I mean, I have working with a VC in San Francisco who's really. Who really took it to heart, and he has his pitch down, like, so he's got a vision embedded. He knows this is why we want you to come work here, is what you're going to do with us.

A (53:10)

Sure.

B (53:11)

And it goes back to Simon. Simon, right.

A (53:13)

Why.

B (53:15)

Why are we doing what we're doing? Why are you. Why would you want to do it with us? You know, what makes us different? And so that has to be written and disseminated in the job description, it comes back to accomplishments. What are we going to accomplish together? Like, you're not. You're not just. They're not coming to work for you. I mean, they're trading time to be with you eight hours a day. Why?

A (53:38)

Yeah. Well, this was amazing, David. We. I mean, we cover things that are spiritual, that are relationship based. You know, things that you need to think about from a professional standpoint and just preparation. Right? So in this last minute, I just want you to share one piece of wisdom. Could be from a family member, could be from one of your mentors, could be from your clients. Because we're always learning. So what do you got to leave with us?

B (54:02)

Oh, man. I'll leave you with the word grit and the way I define it, and it comes from a book by Duckworth, and she defined it as. As commitment, passion, perseverance. Right? And. And that's why, like, that's why I've always said I embody grit. Because at the end of the day, like, you got it, like. Or I'll piggyback off of, like, FDR's man in the arena.

A (54:25)

Right?

B (54:26)

Don't be afraid to be the person in the arena. Like, it's that person who's going to learn the most. Like, what are you going to get out of it by doing what you do? Right? It's, it's. And it's the resilience that come with it. So not to be trying, you know, but you gotta keep. You gotta keep going, you gotta try, you gotta be curious, and you gotta not be afraid to fail and embrace failure, like, because that's when you learn the most.

A (54:52)

Yeah. Well, hey, David, this is amazing. Thank you for your time and thank you for all that you do. You're servicing so many different clients and you're really creating true impact and helping people get jobs. You're helping teams essentially scale their business. So you're doing God's work. So appreciate all that you do, and thanks for your time and being generous with it.

B (55:12)

No, thank you, man. Humbled to be here.

A (55:14)

Yeah. Thank you. Take care. Have a great day, everybody.

B (55:16)

You too. Thank you. Bye.