Discover Your Life’s Purpose with Arthur Brooks (Pt 2): Finding Meaning in an Age of Emptiness

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Jamie Kern Lima Show

Episode Title:
Discover Your Life’s Purpose with Arthur Brooks (Pt 2): Finding Meaning in an Age of Emptiness
Host: Jamie Kern Lima
Guest: Arthur Brooks, Harvard Professor, Social Scientist, Author
Date: April 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and insightful conversation, Jamie Kern Lima sits down with Harvard professor and acclaimed author Arthur Brooks to delve deep into the search for life’s meaning and purpose. Building on themes from his new book The Meaning of Your Life, Brooks offers practical advice grounded in science, philosophy, and personal experience. The discussion tackles timeless questions of fulfillment, the power of presence, the role of suffering, and the importance of transcendence. This episode is especially relevant for high-achievers, seekers, and anyone feeling the weight of “not enough.”

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Key Topics & Insights

1. The Power of Presence and Meaning (00:00–06:02)

• Arthur Brooks' Foundational Idea:
  “Only in the present can you love. You can't love in the past and you can't love in the future because you're not there. Only when you're here now can you truly love somebody... And meaning comes from love.” (00:00)

• Jamie’s Reflection:
  Jamie shares her struggle with being present, openly acknowledging her tendency to live in the future, which often causes her to miss moments of love with her family and friends.
  “Let me just be with my babies and love that moment... Let me make the micro a project.” (06:54)

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2. The Search and Presence Framework (04:11–07:45)

• Arthur Brooks Explains the 'Search and Presence' Matrix:
  • Coherence, purpose, and significance are the three pillars of meaning.
  • Two main dimensions: “search” (your striving for meaning) and “presence” (how much meaning you feel).
  • Four types of people:
    1. Not searching, no presence — “lost in place.”
    2. Searching hard, little presence — “hopeful seekers.”
    3. Strong presence, still seeking — “seekers with meaning.”
    4. Strong presence, not searching — “content, rare individuals.”
  • Brooks encourages listeners to identify where they are in their unique journey and find tailored strategies.
  • “Most people...are going to be like, I want a better presence of meaning. And I'm searching, which is why I'm reading this book. That's fantastic.” (04:45)

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3. Achievers, Seeking, and the Trap of “Never Enough” (06:49–09:08)

• Jamie’s Honest Moment:
  “I have a lot of achievers that watch the show... never enough or they're never enough. And it's so helpful to hear you talk about, okay, you don't have to just go, I've arrived...” (06:54)

• Arthur Brooks Reminds Listeners:
  “You're not going to get there [to complete contentment]. Maybe, maybe in the great hereafter, but not on earth...people are made for progress.” (07:45–07:52)

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4. The Science of Time, Love, and Meaning (07:52–14:34)

• How We Spend Time:

  • Entrepreneurs often spend up to 80% of time thinking about the future.
  • “Only in the present can you love... The more time that you're not here now is, the more love you miss.” (08:00, 00:00 repeated for emphasis throughout)

• Jamie’s Realization:
  “Every time I catch myself...living in the future, I'm robbing myself of love.” (10:28)

• Brooks’ Core Message:
  “Your life is measured in love. Your success has nothing to do with whether or not you're going to be a happy person. On the contrary, it has everything to do with the choices that you make in terms of the resource that you have, like everybody else on the planet.” (11:40)

  • Having partners, children, or friends is only a “condition for love.” If you’re not present, you're not truly loving. (12:38)
  • Real friends matter far more than virtual friends or transactional (“deal friends”). (12:51)

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5. On Suffering and Meaning (22:38–26:29)

• Brooks Shares the Buddhist Perspective:
  • Key Formula: “Suffering = pain x resistance” (22:38)
  • Accepting pain, rather than resisting it, leads to less suffering and deeper meaning.
  • Story about his mother-in-law: as her pain increased near life’s end, her suffering decreased because she stopped resisting and embraced gratitude and connection.
  • “If we have the philosophy that suffering is something to be eliminated, we will eliminate the meaning from our lives.” (22:38)

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6. Transcendence and Getting Out of “Me, Me, Me” (27:08–33:20)

• Brooks on Transcendence:

  • Faith, philosophy, service, and awe are ways to transcend self-focus.
  • “Transcendence is to transcend yourself. Left your devices, you'll spend all day long thinking about yourself... The research is really clear that when you can break out of the psychodrama, you get happier and you find the meaning of life.” (27:08)
  • Two key ways to access transcendence:
    1. Faith or philosophical frameworks
    2. Serving others

• Practical Example:

  • A former fitness influencer dramatically improved his well-being by removing mirrors and getting off social media.
  • “I was cured because I stopped looking at myself. I stopped looking at myself in the mirror of social media notifications.” (30:38)

• Service and Meaning:

  • Giving to others not only increases happiness but even makes people more attractive to others.
  • “When you're not thinking about yourself and you're serving other people, people think that you're more beautiful or handsome.” (31:51)

• Jamie & Arthur’s Playful Banter:

  • Jamie jokes with her husband about being more attractive when he’s charitable.
  • “You know how hot? ...You're so much hotter when you give even more.” (32:19)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Arthur Brooks:
  "Only in the present can you love. You can't love in the past and you can't love in the future because you're not there." (00:00)

• Jamie Kern Lima:
  "Every time I catch myself...living in the future, I'm robbing myself of love." (10:28)

• Arthur Brooks:
  "If we have the philosophy that suffering is something to be eliminated, we will eliminate the meaning from our lives." (22:38)

• Arthur Brooks:
  "Transcendence is to transcend yourself... The research is really clear that when you can break out of the psychodrama, you get happier and you find the meaning of life." (27:08)

• Arthur Brooks:
  "Your life is measured in love. Your success has nothing to do with whether or not you're going to be a happy person." (11:40)

• Jamie Kern Lima:
  "Let me make the micro a project." (06:54)

• Arthur Brooks:
  "Suffering equals pain multiplied by resistance." (22:38)

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Additional Resources Mentioned

• The Meaning of Your Life by Arthur Brooks — Arthur's latest book providing a blueprint for discovering meaning.
• Jamie’s book Worthy — Tools to help overcome self-doubt and build self-worth.

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00 – Arthur’s foundational “being present” insight
• 04:11 – Brooks explains “search and presence” in the journey for meaning
• 07:52 – The science of time, presence, and how love is linked to meaning
• 10:28 – Jamie recognizes living in the future robs her of love
• 11:40 – Life measured in love, not success or even time
• 22:38 – Buddhist formula for suffering; importance of accepting pain
• 27:08 – Transcendence: faith, service, and escaping self-focus
• 30:38 – “Mirrors” and getting out of the “me self”
• 31:51 – Service increases happiness and attractiveness
• 33:02 – Social media and modern “mirrors” as barriers to meaning

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Tone & Closing Reflection

Jamie’s warmth and enthusiasm set a deeply personal and motivating tone throughout the episode. Brooks’ philosophical and scientific perspectives are made instantly practical by Jamie’s relatable examples and open-hearted reflections. Their honest exchange—about striving, presence, suffering, faith, and real love—offers a rich resource for anyone seeking greater fulfillment.

Takeaway Message:
Your life is ultimately measured in love, not success or achievement. Presence, acceptance of pain, and transcending self through faith and service are the lasting pathways to meaning and joy.

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Transcript

[Arthur Brooks]

Only in the present can you love. You can't love in the past and you can't love in the future because you're not there. Only when you're here now can you truly love somebody. You can only love your husband now when you're present. You can only love your babies now. And the more time that you're not here now is, the more love you miss. And meaning comes from love.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Arthur Brooks that is one of the most powerful things I have ever heard. Coming up in this incredible Part two episode with Arthur Brooks. Do you know the meaning of your life? Do you feel a true sense of purpose? Is this something you've been searching for but perhaps are struggling with? If so, you're not alone. Millions of people in fact, describe this feeling of a growing sense of emptiness or lack of significance. And if you can relate, and if you want more meaning and fulfillment in your life, then today's episode is for Arthur C. Brooks is a Harvard professor, Ph.D. social scientist, and number one best selling author of multiple books who specializes in using the highest levels of science and philosophy to provide people with actionable strategies to live their best lives right now. And in his brand new book, it's called the Meaning of youf Life, he leans on cutting edge science and great philosophers to give us a blueprint that he says will help even the most skeptical person find a life of spiritual transcendence, passionate love and true calling. Yes, please. Arthur speaks to audiences around the world about human happiness and he's flown across country to be here in person with you and me today. I am so excited for this conversation. And whether today you're listening for yourself or because someone you love shared this episode with you, I want to welcome you to the Jamie Carlin Lima Show Podcast family. Thank you so much for being here. If you haven't done this already, can you take a second and click the Follow or Subscribe button on the app you're listening to or watching on right now? It really, truly means the world to me. And also, you can get more inspiration for free right now from me to you. Just join my newsletter [e-mail] and this incredible episode today, it's not just for you and me. Please share this with me with every single person that you know who may need some inspiration or to find meaning in their life today. Because what you're about to hear can truly impact mine, yours and their lives too.

[Arthur Brooks]

Welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Oprah, how have you defied the odds?

[Arthur Brooks]

Her show is unlike any I've ever Done.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

A revelation. When you listen, it feels like a hug. First Lady Michelle Obama. Jamie, you are going so deep. I have never had this in depth conversation. I've actually never said that out loud to anybody in an interview before. You know how to get there.

[Arthur Brooks]

Your brain and your spirit and your heart is like, wow.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Melinda French Gates.

[Arthur Brooks]

When I look into Jamie's eyes, I feel like I am on some other cosmic level with her.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Meghan, Duchess of Sussex. I wasn't expecting that one. I could see the light around her. She's infused with light. Maria Shriver. I never made that mistake again. Imagine overcoming self doubt. Learning to believe in yourself and trust yourself and know you are enough. Welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima show.

[Arthur Brooks]

Jamie Kern Lima is her name.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Everybody needs Jamie Kern Lima in their life. Jamie Kern Lima.

[Arthur Brooks]

Jamie, you're so inspiring. Jamie Kern Lima. Really six things. And when you do these six things in six months, you'll end up being your life.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Six things in six months. And you'll be living a different life. Can you talk about, you know, as people start to embark on this and the journey that they're on to, finding meaning. Can you talk about search and presence?

[Arthur Brooks]

Yeah. So this is one of the ways that we measure meaning in life. So of course, as behavioral scientists, we have to put some numbers on these things. And, and so we defined it coherence, purpose and significance. But how do we measure where you are in your own journey to finding meaning? And there's two dimensions to it. One is search. How much are you searching? And number two is how close are you to understanding the meaning of your life? That's presence. And what you find is that there's kind of four kinds of people. There's some people who aren't searching and don't have presence. These are lost in place. You know, these are, and these are people who are, you know, they don't even know what the problem is. They're not even asking the questions at this point. There's some people who don't have a strong sense of presence, but they're searching real hard. That's very encouraging. Most people who are going to pick up this book are going to be like, I want a better presence of meaning. And I'm searching, which is why I'm reading this book. That's fantastic. And there's some people who have a strong sense of presence. Some of them are searching. I have a strong sense of presence. Jamie, I really feel have a strong sense of meaning in my life. But I'm searching, searching because I'm a Searcher. I'm a total seeker. And that sometimes is bad because that's Grass is greener and, oh, look at that shiny thing over there. And there's some people who are just, like, really content, you know, they have a strong sense of, of presence, and they're actually not looking for it. But that's not very many people is what I find. So this book actually has a test and that people can take to find out who they are and where they are in that process and tell them where to start their search. Because you get. You can't actually find something if you

[Jamie Kern Lima]

don't know where you are, which is so good. And I think most people actually don't quite know where they are.

[Arthur Brooks]

No.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Like, I talk about so many of these topics all the time. I'm obsessed with it. I love it. And still reading the meaning of your life, I'm thinking to myself, you know, okay, I know. I'm a seeker. For sure.

[Arthur Brooks]

For sure. You're doing the show. The show is a process of seeking.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yes. And I love it. I love it. I've loved it forever. I remember when I was a Denny's waitress saving my money to go to my first Tony Robbins event, you know?

[Arthur Brooks]

Did you really?

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Oh, yeah.

[Arthur Brooks]

Does he know that?

[Jamie Kern Lima]

He does now, yeah. It's so wild. He interviewed me for business mastery, and then I keynote. And then I did a keynote his event now 21 times. And it's been a whole thing, but it's kind of wild.

[Arthur Brooks]

Full circle. I've spoken at his events before, too. There's just. They're wonderful. And he's changed so many people's lives.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah. As have you and as is this book going to do. And so, but, but I kind of realized through that, I'm like, oh, yeah, I, I, I'm definitely a seeker. But then in terms of presence, I would give myself like a B. I think that I'm still, I'm in that space. Space of hearing, like, God, what's your dream? For me? And all the things.

[Arthur Brooks]

It's driver's curse.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I know.

[Arthur Brooks]

Once again. Next thing, next thing, next thing, next thing. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I'm taking so much away from this conversation already, by the way, just to share, because I think that's what I really need to zone in on is like, let me just be with my babies and love that moment. Let me actually look at my husband in the eye instead of us with her. Like, let me really make that a project of the micro. Let me make the micro a project. And I think that Something you shared earlier, which this is. You know, I have a lot of achievers that watch the show and a lot of people that, you know, are like, I know I'm made for more. And I. And they have so many goals, whether they're entrepreneurs or they just want to live happier. And it's sort of never. They're feeling like it's never enough or they're never enough. And it's so helpful to hear you talk about, okay, you don't have to just go, I've arrived. Let me want nothing more. Or that you won't.

[Arthur Brooks]

You're not going to get there. Maybe, maybe in the great hereafter, but not on earth.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

And do you believe we always have to be growing?

[Arthur Brooks]

I think that people are made for progress. We really are made for progress. But there's one thing that you said is really important for people to understand. This is a very profound point that you just made. You talked about wanting to be here now with your babies, right? So CS Lewis, who's a great theologian and writer, he observed something that's really important. We tend to spend a lot of time thinking about the future. And you as an entrepreneur, statistically, the average person spends 30 to 50% of their time thinking about the future. But entrepreneurs more like 80% of the time thinking about the future. I bet you spent most of your life, Jamie, thinking about the future like castles in the sky, right? Some people spend a lot of their time thinking about the past. You probably don't. But a lot of people do spend a lot of time thinking about the past. We can time travel because our big prefrontal cortex, our big amazing human brain, the supercomputer of the ages, which makes it possible for us to go back in the past and live back there, go into the future and live there and practice different things, but only in the present can you love. You can't love in the past, and you can't love in the future because you're not there. Only when you're here now can you truly love somebody. You can only love your husband now. When you're present. You can only love your babies now. And the more time that you're not here now is, the more love you miss. And meaning comes from love.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Arthur Brooks, this is. You know, I feel blessed that when we have guests on the show, I'm always focused on the person at home. What can they. What do they want to know? What can they get out of. Da, da. I feel like this conversation, I'm already. I'm like, oh, this is for me, this. Thank God, like, for that you're here today. Honestly, these are big things in my life.

[Arthur Brooks]

They're big things. And me too. And me, too. And, you know, the thing about being in the world of behavioral science is you don't do research. You do research. I answer the questions that I need the answers to. And it's funny because people often ask me, you must be. Because you study happy. You must be a super happy person. It's like, no, I'm a deeply discontented person. That's why I study happiness, because I want the answers. But it turns out a lot of other people do, too.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

We're going to talk about the four types of person you may be in terms of happiness in a minute. Because I know. You're mad scientist, right?

[Arthur Brooks]

Mad scientist.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. We'll get it.

[Arthur Brooks]

I'm literally a mad scientist in my day job. Right?

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Which is. Right. Which is what you just said is so, so powerful because so many of us, we do. You know, some people do live in the past. Of course, a lot of live in the future. And then we can miss our entire lives doing that. But what you just said is that if you're living in the future or you're living in the past and in your mind, you're not present. And you cannot love.

[Arthur Brooks]

You can't love.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Not love. So you have no idea how that's gonna change my life. Because every time I catch myself, which to your guess, is most the day, living in the future, I'm robbing myself of love.

[Arthur Brooks]

When you're holding your baby and you're thinking about the future, it can be. I mean, I understand that you want to. You're thinking about, I gotta get something from the supermarket that's living in the future. And that's fine. That's normal, right? But when it's all the castles in the sky and you've got the baby in your arms, you gotta choose. Baby in my arms, Castle in the sky. It's a pretty easy choice.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

You know, I had one of my best friends out here this week of over 30 years. We met when I was waitressing at Denny's. She's waitressing in another restaurant. Way nicer restaurant, although I love Denny's.

[Arthur Brooks]

Denny's is awesome.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Denny's is so great. I actually love that job. But I had her here this week and she just flew out today. And I told her, I'm like, I am so busy this week. I feel like I wasn't present and I wasn't. Like, I was living in the future the whole time she was here. And I'm just having this moment right now with you where I'm like, I missed out on the love. All of those moments.

[Arthur Brooks]

You didn't miss the time. That's not the. That's not the unit of value. Yeah, people, I mean, okay, money is not the unit value, obviously, that people say time is. That's not right either. It's love. Your life is measured in. In. In love. Right. It's you, You. You aren't the sum of your success, you're the sum of the love in your life. And we make ourselves less. We degrade ourselves ultimately. And people, by the way, they're going to look at your life and say, it's got the precious charmed existence. If only I could live like Jamie, then everything would. And the whole point is that has. Your success has nothing to do with whether or not you're going to be a happy person. On the contrary, it has everything to do with the choices that you make in terms of the resource that you have, like everybody else on the planet.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

And you know what else, Arthur? You saying your life is measured in love. It's so easy for us to then tell ourselves a different version of that, which is like, okay, well, I have love, I have kids, I have a partner, I have great friends. But no, that doesn't mean you have love. Just.

[Arthur Brooks]

It means you have conditions for love.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah. If you're not present with them, if you're not. If you're living in the future all the time, which is what I do, and you're missing. It's impossible to have all that, then you actually don't have that.

[Arthur Brooks]

Right, Right. Right. And if you're living a virtual world where instead of love with people in your life, you don't have real friends, you have virtual friends. If you don't have real friends, you have deal friends. You know, this is what a lot of successful people have, then you're going to be missing out on meaning, because love is what actually. The sense of meaning to your life. So there's all these disciplines again. Your great grandfather had this all the time. Because there wasn't that many opportunities to live in the future. It was right now on pushing the plow behind the mule.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

People were so much happier.

[Arthur Brooks]

They were. It's funny, but it's actually what happened was that their brains were working the way their brains were supposed to work. Getting back to the biology of this thing, our brains are not supposed to work the way they're being encouraged to work in our Technological hustle, Go, go. Environment. We're not at home. We're being pushed out of our homes, and we want to go home.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

And if your life is measured in love and you are not present, you cannot love.

[Arthur Brooks]

You're poor, you're poor, you're poor. If your life is measured in love and you're passing every time, there's the love.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yes.

[Arthur Brooks]

Because you're not fully present.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yes.

[Arthur Brooks]

You've impoverished yourself.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Arthur Price. I feel like that is the most powerful thing. Like that. That is one of the most powerful things I have ever heard. Like, that is literally going to change my life today. And I already know it's going to change the life of so many people because, oh, my gosh, I can't even think of a single friend, a single. And I'm talking about, you know, whether they're, you know, just. They have a lot going on in their parents and they're hardworking, they're getting through the day, or they have tremendous success. What the world calls tremendous success. I don't think I know a single person that's not. That's barely present.

[Arthur Brooks]

I know, I know, I know. And the world will tell you that you'll get happier if you're not present. The world will tell you that, because Mother Nature, it's funny. Mother Nature, God bless her, wants us to survive and pass on our genes. She doesn't care if we're happy. She doesn't care if we find meaning. She doesn't care if we have love. And there's nothing wrong with that. But here's the amazing thing about being human. You can live according to your animal impulses, or you can live according to your moral aspirations. We have a choice of living in a way that's not just if it feels good, do it from moment to moment. We don't have to do that. We can be free. We can manage our impulses so they don't manage us. We can be the people that we want to be. That's so freeing. That's so incredibly empowering. But that sometimes means you got to fight yourself. You got to fight against these impulses. Because it becomes easy for the strivers who are watching us. The easiest thing is to go to the castles in the sky, because that's what they're really good at is planning the next thing. It's the business, it's the ambition, it's the exciting thing that's going to happen next. And that's a way to distract ourselves. And that's actually kind of an addiction in and of Itself, isn't it?

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Okay, I want to ask you about faith. Yeah, Actually, before I do that, I want to ask you about, with the meaning of your life, of this six, what would you like to share? Because the first thing everyone's gonna say is, what are the six? Which, by the way, you have to get the book the Meaning of youf Life and dive into it. And I love. You know, podcasts are so powerful. Conversations like this are so, so powerful. But even in prepping for this show, if I were to have someone else read your book and I get the notes of it, it's so different than if I experience the book, right? Like, there's just. There's granular things, really, like what you just said. Actually, like, that moment is gonna change my life. There's granular things in a book that I just think you cannot get. When you listen to a podcast, anybody's podcast. And so I think this is so important. Grab your copy. The meaning of your life, whether you get it on audible or. And listen to it in your morning walks or during the day or in your car drive to work, or you grab a physical copy because there's gonna be things that speak to you that are different than what we could possibly talk about in a podcast. But the. For six, if someone's like, what are the six? What do I do? Six in six months is going to change my life. What would you like to share on that?

[Arthur Brooks]

Well, so you're right that when. When you read a book that has a number of ways to solve a problem, that's one of the reasons it's very important to give people more than one way to solve a problem in a book. If you have a one tool solution, it's going to hit some people. It's not going to work for other people. There's six things in here, and different people are in different parts of their journey, which means that most people are going to read this book and it's going to be one of these things and say, that's the thing I needed to read. I wrote the book so that it will hit somebody where they are. You know, the divine has a plan for each person and puts resources into their lives. And I pray every day that what I write will be a resource to somebody, that God will put my book into somebody's life. And that one sentence, one chapter, one paragraph from this book will. Will meet them where they are at that particular point. And I don't know which one it is because it's not in My hands.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Arthur Brooks]

You know, it's not, it's a, it's a. I'm just a tool for this. I mean that, that's what I've. That's my prayer is that God will use me in this particular way. Right. So I think about it in terms of what's really helped me in this. And there's one chapter, the second to last chapter, there's a conclusion that talks about how to make your life like a pilgrimage. Like make your life like one. Walking, walking, walking. And where your meaning will find you. Because that's what happens when you do a pilgrimage. Right? This, the chapter right before that is the hardest one for me. And it's the one that I needed to write because the one I needed to understand. Is it about.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

We need to pause for a super brief break. And while we do, take a moment to share this episode with every single person that you know who this could inspire. Because this conversation can truly be the words and inspiration they need to hear today. To keep going, to remember that they matter, and to feel less alone and more enough, more connected, more inspired and more worthy. In life, you don't feel soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self worth. When you build your self worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy how to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, Worthy is for you. In Worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life changing results. Like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, build unshakable self love, unlearn the lies that lead to self doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness, overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome, achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self doubt and unshakable self worth. Get your copy of Worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for [e-mail] or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you do. If you fully believed in you, it's time to find out. With Worthy, who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more. Especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration. Which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiecarnlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy and love hitting your inbox. I'm your girl. [e-mail] or in the link in the show Notes do you struggle with negative self talk? Living with a constant mental narrative that you're not good enough is exhausting. I know because I spent most of my life in that habit. The words you say to yourself about yourself are so powerful and when you learn to take control over your self talk, it's life changing and I wanted to give you a free resource that I created for you if this is something that could benefit your Life. It's called 5 Ways to Overcome Negative Self Talk and Build Self Love and it's a free how to guide to overcome that negative self talk to build confidence and develop unshakable self love so that you can dream big and keep going in the pursuit of your goals. Don't let self sabotaging thoughts hinder your progress any longer. It's time to rewrite the script of your life, one filled with self love, resilience and unwavering belief. If you're ready to take charge of your narrative, build unwavering confidence and empower yourself to persevere on the path to your dreams. You can grab your free guide to stop overthinking and learn to Trust yourself at jamiekernlima.com resources or click the link in the show notes below. And now more of this incredible conversation together.

[Arthur Brooks]

The chapter right before that is the hardest one for me and it's the one that I needed to write because the one I needed to understand. And it's about suffering, about suffering and nobody. You know, it's like, oh good hell, fantastic. Let's talk about pain. It's like, no, but the truth of the matter is that many people are in a lot of pain who are watching us right now and they're suffering a lot and that's part of life. It turns out that if we have the philosophy that suffering is something to be eliminated, we will eliminate the meaning from our lives. And this is important because we can't avoid suffering. What we can do is we can make the goal of trying to lower our pain all day long, all day long, all day long. Or we can work on the resistance to it. And here's how this works. And this is the most profound point that I had when I was writing this book. Suffering equals pain multiplied by resistance. That's an ancient Buddhist formula, suffering. We all know what that is, is pain, which is acute mental or physical times, your resistance to that pain. And that means that if you can try to lower your pain, but good luck, I mean, you can do it temporarily and you can do it with drugs, or you can do it with distraction. And by the way, that's what people are doing on the Internet all day long is trying to lower their pain. Or you can lower your resistance to that pain and lowering your resistance to that pain is accepting the fact that life has pain in it. And here's what happens when you find that your life has the most meaning. There's pain in it, but not that much suffering. And I've seen this in the lives of people that I was studying for this book. I was very, very close to my mother in law who lived in 93 and died a couple of years ago. She was. I was closer to my mother in law than I was to my own mom, which not very many men have said. She's a wonderful. I just loved her so much. She lived in Barcelona her whole life. And near the end of her life, she was bedridden. And it was horrible. It was difficult. It was literally physically painful and incredibly limiting for a person who had been vital and alive her whole life. And what I noticed was that as her pain rose, her suffering fell. And I said, what's going on? Why is that? How is that possible? And the reason is because she stopped resisting that pain. She accepted that pain. She started spending her time with the people that she loved, talking about the things that actually mattered. She had a spirit of gratitude for all the good things that were actually happening. She didn't deny that she was in a lot of physical pain. She didn't deny that her circumstances were terrible, but she stopped fighting it. And this is what we actually need, especially a lot of young people today, is to understand that pain's going to come your way, but suffering's in your hands. And learning that formula is a life changer for me. Boy, have I accepted a lot more things about my life in the years that I've been working on this project. And my life has gotten a lot better.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Wow. I've never heard that before.

[Arthur Brooks]

Yeah, I hadn't either. I hadn't either. I hadn't thought about it in the right way. In the west, you know, we have a tendency to say if there's, if there's pain in my life, my job is to get rid of it. But I tell my students, by the way, I mean, I say, look, you're studying at Harvard. If you're not sad and anxious, you need therapy. You know, being sad and anxious is not. And again, I'm not against therapy. On the contrary, you know, psychiatric care has saved the lives of people, many people in my family, as a matter of fact. But the truth of the matter is that you can have pain and not learn and grow from it because you're, you're trying to eliminate it, or you can have pain and become a deeper, better person as a result of it. It's really your choice. And that has to do with how you deal with that. And so that whole chapter is how the great sages and philosophers, how the greatest scientists have understood not how to get rid of pain, but how to get rid of resistance to pain.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Faith is a huge deal in my life. I know it's a big deal in your life as well. And I want to talk about, you know, for everyone listening, whether they have they practice any particular faith or consider themselves spiritual or believe in a power greater than themselves when it comes to meaning, when it comes to the search for meaning and when it comes to us feeling fulfilled and all that. I have a couple questions I want

[Arthur Brooks]

to ask about that.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

But can you talk about the importance of transcendence and of me to.

[Arthur Brooks]

I. Yeah. So people talk an awful lot about faith and they think immediately about religion. And I love religion. I've studied religion. You know, I've worked for many years with His Holiness the Dalai Lama. I've had many great teachers in India. Personally, I'm a practitioner, practicing Catholic. I go to Mass every day, actually. I start my day though, I go to the gym and I go to Mass every day. And, and when I'm home with my 6:30 in the morning, I went this morning at 6:30 in San Juan Capistrano at the Mission Basilica down in Orange County. And it's a beautiful, beautiful thing. But when I'm looking at it as a scientist, it's a different phenomenon than a correct religion. I can't assess that scientifically. It's, that's way above my pay grade as a behavioral scientist. What I can assess is the benefit that people actually get in their lives and why it happens, and that's transcendence. Transcendence is to transcend yourself. Left your devices, you'll spend all day long thinking about yourself. Me, me, me, me. My stuff, my breakfast, my kids, my money, my television programs, my problems. Yeah, my back pain, whatever, all day long. It's just so boring. It's just. And you know, all the dreams you had last night, you were the star in every one of them. It's just like, like, make it stop. Right? And that's because mother nature has designed you to think about yourself all the day, all day long. That's called the psychodrama where you're the star and each one of us is walking around thinking, me, me, me. But the research is really clear that when you can break out of the psychodrama, you get happier and you find the meaning of life. Only when you get perspective outside yourself do you find the meaning of your own life. You can't see it from the inside. It's kind of like a fish can't. Can't feel water. It's because that's the habitat that you're swimming around in all the time. That's called the me self. Me, me, me, me, me is the me self, and that's the mirror that you're looking in all day long. The I self is when you're standing outside looking at the world and standing in awe of the wonderful things in the world. That's when you can transcend. Either you transcend by serving other people, you transcend by standing in awe of the great of the universe, of God, perhaps, or the genius that is the universe. And standing in nature is a great way to do that, as a matter of fact. But only when you do that on purpose can you actually get these particular benefits. So I have a whole set of protocols that I put people in to get out of the me self. And sometimes it's really radical. I mean, I had this. This physical therapist who's, you know, because my back kind of hurts. And so he was working on my back and I said, so if you always been. Because he's just loving guy. He's just so. He was so intuitive. He's wonderful. And I said, have you ever done this? He said, no, no, no. Before I was a. I was a fitness influencer. And I'm like, what that, you know, what. What even is that? I mean, I know what it is because I'm on social media. But he's like, sure enough, you know, he was taking his shirt off and selling supplements and exercise programs, and I Said, how was that? He says, horrible, horrible. I was so unhappy because I was looking at myself in the mirror all the time. And if, you know, my abs aren't quite right. And, and he said, I was so miserable, I never ate anything I liked. I couldn't have normal relationships. It was horrible until I figured out what I needed to do. I said, well, tell me, tell me, tell me. I was a behavioral scientist. I want to know. Right? And he says, first I took every mirror out of my apartment. He says, I got off social media, I went back to school, I got rid of every mirror in my apartment. And then I showered in the dark for a year so I couldn't see my abs.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Wow.

[Arthur Brooks]

And I was, I was cured. He said I was cured because I stopped looking at myself. I stopped looking at myself in the mirror of social media notifications. I stopped looking at myself in the mirror that is the physical mirror. I wasn't able to, to be in the me self all the time. He didn't use that word, that word because he's not a psychologist. Right. But it was really, really important and that's what we need to do. And the two ways to do that, number one are faith or philosophy. Right. Number two is serving other people is get out of yourself and go help somebody else. And if you do those two things, you'll transcend and your life. And, and again, this is not, you're not going to say, oh, the meaning of my life is boom. But you're going to know it, you're going to find it. No, it's going to find you. When you're in the eye, self meaning will find you.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

And you're in your right side of your brain.

[Arthur Brooks]

You're in the right side of your brain. That's, that's, that's geographically what's going on right there. And you can't quite explain why it is than when you're no longer feeling, thinking about yourself, you're feeling so happy. You know, it's funny, I've got all these experiments where people will serve others and you know, they get happier, they get more peaceful, they sleep better. People think they're better looking. That when you're not thinking about yourself and you're serving other people, people think that you're more beautiful or handsome.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah.

[Arthur Brooks]

It's crazy, right? The more you think about yourself and you're looking at yourself, the less beautiful you actually are.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Wow.

[Arthur Brooks]

Yeah.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Yeah. The less beautiful and less happy and

[Arthur Brooks]

especially the less happy that you are. Absolutely. Yeah. There's a great experiment where These guys are. They're. They're. They're giving charitably or not in front of their wives. And their wives think they're hotter if they've been giving more charitably to others.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

I. I completely agree with that news.

[Arthur Brooks]

You can use guys.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Oh, my gosh. I tell my husband that all the time. I do. I do. I'm like, you know, how hot? Because, you know, he's. He. Well, I won't even get into it, but I tell him, I'm like, you know how. You know you're so much hotter when you give even more?

[Arthur Brooks]

Yeah.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Like when we're at a charity event.

[Arthur Brooks]

That's why guys on first dates, they'll be, like, super nice to dogs and babies. They want to look like, you know, caregivers is the way that that whole thing works, because they're. They're. They're actually in the me self acting, but. But they want to look like they live in the eye self, which is more transcendent. It's just more attractive is the whole way. And, you know, women want to marry guys who are more in the eye self and less than the me self. There's almost nothing that women find less attractive than vanity in men. Almost nothing.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

Well, it's so wild. This. This the whole new world we're in where, you know, so much more is about me, even online.

[Arthur Brooks]

Yeah.

[Jamie Kern Lima]

You know what I mean?

[Arthur Brooks]

Those are all mirrors. All mirrors. And they. And again, that's the online culture, which, once again, is pushing us to the left side of our brains, making meaning

[Jamie Kern Lima]

out of reach, even getting Uber reviews, even get it, like, two ways. Can you find true meaning in your life if you do not believe in a power greater than yourself? This conversation with Arthur Brooks is so incredible. We made it into more than one part. And if you want to dive deeper into how to truly discover your purpose and feel a sense of fulfillment and greater meaning in your life, you are not going to want to miss this incredible part three of our conversation with Arthur Brooks. That's coming up in the next episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. Remember, this episode's not just for you and me. Please share this with every single person you know, because it can impact and change their life, too. And if you love today's conversation, please click the Follow or Subscribe button on the app that you're listening to it on or watching it on. And if it added value to your life, if you could, please give it a review, I would be so grateful. Five stars is perfect. And again, just share it with everyone. You believe in. Maybe it's another person in your life who could benefit from it, someone who's been searching for meaning or maybe just kind of feeling a little bit empty and needs that boost of purpose. You can also post the episode and share it with others online in your community who just might need the words and tools and lessons in this conversation today. You never know whose life you're meant to change by sharing this episode. And thank you so much for joining me today. Before you go, I want to share some words with you that couldn't be more true. You right now, exactly as you are, are enough and fully worthy. You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your wildest dreams and all the unconditional love in the world. And it's an honor to welcome you to each and every episode of Jamie Kerr and Lima show here. I hope you'll come as you are, heal where you need, blossom what you choose, journey toward your calling and stay as long as you like because you belong here. You are worthy, you are loved, you are love and I love you and I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck in at the level of your self worth. When you build your self worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy how to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, Worthy is for you. In Worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life changing results like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, build unshakable self love, unlearn the lies that lead to self doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness, overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome, achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self doubt and unshakable self worth. Get your copy of Worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for [e-mail] or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you'd do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out. With Worthy, who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you, delivered straight to your inbox from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiekernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy and love hitting your inbox, I'm your girl. [e-mail] or in the link in the show notes. And please note, I'm not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.