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The Jamie Kern Lima Show
Norah O’Donnell’s First EVER Podcast Interview! Life-Changing Lessons & How Success Leaves Clues!
01:34:10
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- [00:00]
Jamie Kern Lima
Do you feel, as a country that we're moving in the right direction?
- [00:06]
Norah O'Donnell
Jamie, you're very good at this.
- [00:09]
Jamie Kern Lima
Welcome to the worldwide premiere of Norah o' Donnell in her first ever podcast interview. The microscope is really on CBS right now in a lot of ways. What can you tell us about that?
- [00:23]
Norah O'Donnell
We have had a lot of leadership changes at cbs and that has been challenging. People are fearful about what the future means.
- [00:33]
Jamie Kern Lima
Do you still believe the First Amendment and freedom of the press is protected?
- [00:40]
Norah O'Donnell
We all take a lot of heat, you know, making sure that her last child had my grandmother's name and feeding all of that love and hope into her daughters. And now my sister spends her days saving people's lives. And that's. That's life. That's the journey of life. Can your heart expand?
- [01:08]
Jamie Kern Lima
Mm.
- [01:09]
Norah O'Donnell
Mm.
- [01:10]
Jamie Kern Lima
What. What keeps you up at night?
- [01:14]
Norah O'Donnell
Almost everything.
- [01:15]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [01:16]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah, I do. I'm a little bit of a worrywart, maybe undiagnosed anxiety.
- [01:24]
Jamie Kern Lima
You know her from her iconic history making interviews on CBS in 60 Minutes.
- [01:30]
Norah O'Donnell
What are you doing as president to end the shutdown?
- [01:33]
Jamie Kern Lima
To being one of only three women in our history to solo anchor the primetime evening Network News. She's interviewed every living president. And today, for the first time ever, she's agreed to be the one getting interviewed. That's right. Nora o' Donnell has never before done a podcast or long form sit down interview where the tables are turned. And she's the one being asked the questions. And I am so honored, excited, and truly so grateful that she is here in person with you and me today for her first ever podcast interview.
- [02:10]
Norah O'Donnell
Getting to the top is hard. Getting anywhere is hard.
- [02:14]
Jamie Kern Lima
Your eyes just lit up when you.
- [02:15]
Norah O'Donnell
Said Gayle King, my own grandmother, an immigrant from Northern Ireland fleeing religious persecution. As a Catholic, my grandfather did not come through Ellis Island. He came through illegally through Canada and was a stowaway on a boat. This is a nation built on immigrants. It's all kinds of immigrants from all over the world. And that's my family. Those words in the Declaration of Independence, those are the most important words in human history.
- [02:51]
Jamie Kern Lima
Do you think those words ring true right now?
- [02:56]
Norah O'Donnell
I think America is the greatest country in the world. It's why everybody wants to come to America. People have fought and died for the right to vote. The power of the vote, of your vote, of all of our votes is so incredibly important.
- [03:11]
Jamie Kern Lima
Do you think our elections are still fair? You've been married 25 years to Jeff. Jeff.
- [03:17]
Norah O'Donnell
Jeff.
- [03:18]
Jamie Kern Lima
Chef Jeff.
- [03:18]
Norah O'Donnell
Chef Jeff.
- [03:19]
Jamie Kern Lima
Love a man that can cook. Love a man that can Cook. In addition to interviewing every living US President, including her much talked about recent viral interview with President Trump, Norah o' Donnell has interviewed the most pro prominent world leaders from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to Saudi Crown Prince MBS to the Dalai Lama, Malala, Oprah and Dolly Parton to a historic first of its kind. Sit down with Pope Francis.
- [03:46]
Norah O'Donnell
I know you don't like this question.
- [03:50]
Jamie Kern Lima
And over her decades long distinguished career, award winning journalist Nora o' Donnell has also made it her mission to shed light on other untold women's stories. Now, in honor of America's 250th birthday, she's focusing that passion on American heroines who helped change the course of history. In her brand new book, we the Women the Hidden Heroes who Shaped America, we the Women presents a fresh look at American history through the eyes of women, introducing us to inspiring patriots who demanded that the country live up to the promises made by 250 years ago in the Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Since the signing of that document, Nora says the pressing question from women has been why don't those unalienable rights apply to us? I have to say when you get this book home and read it for yourself, it will ignite a strength and conviction in you that for me feels so exciting and so needed. I am such a believer that we can learn from and be inspired by and borrow courage from other people's stories. Nora o' Donnell has flown across the country to be here with you and me today in her first ever long form sit down interview where she she's the one in the hot seat and I am so excited for this conversation and for this worldwide premiere of Norah o' Donnell on the Jamie Kern Lima Show. And whether today you're listening for yourself or because someone you love shared this episode with you, I want to welcome you to the Jamie Kern Lima Show Podcast family. Thank you so much for being here. And can you take two seconds and hit the subscribe or follow button on the app? You're listening or watching on it truly means the world to me. You can also get inspiration from me right to you for free in your inbox. Just join my newsletter community@jamiekernlima.com and this incredible podcast episode. It's not just for you and me. Please share this with every single person you know who might need some inspiration today. Perhaps a boost in their self belief or Some belief in their own story and the power of it. Because what you're about to hear can truly impact mine, yours and their life too.
- [06:12]
Norah O'Donnell
Welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show.
- [06:16]
Jamie Kern Lima
Oprah, how have you defied the odds?
- [06:19]
Norah O'Donnell
Her show is unlike any I've ever done. A revelation. When you listen, it feels like a hug.
- [06:26]
Jamie Kern Lima
First Lady Michelle Obama.
- [06:28]
Norah O'Donnell
Jamie, you are going so deep. I have never had this in depth conversation.
- [06:34]
Jamie Kern Lima
I've actually never said that out loud.
- [06:35]
Norah O'Donnell
To anybody in an interview before. You know how to get there. Your brain and your spirit and your heart is like, wow.
- [06:44]
Jamie Kern Lima
Melinda French Gates.
- [06:47]
Norah O'Donnell
When I look into Jamie's eyes, I feel like I am on some other cosmic level with her.
- [06:53]
Jamie Kern Lima
Megan, Duchess of Sussex. I wasn't expecting that one.
- [06:58]
Norah O'Donnell
I could see the light around her. She's infused with light.
- [07:01]
Jamie Kern Lima
Maria Shriver.
- [07:03]
Norah O'Donnell
I never made that mistake again.
- [07:05]
Jamie Kern Lima
Imagine overcoming self doubt. Learning to believe in yourself and trust yourself and know you are enough. Welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show.
- [07:17]
Norah O'Donnell
Jamie Kern Lima is her name. Everybody needs Jamie Kern Lima in their life.
- [07:21]
Jamie Kern Lima
Jamie Kern Lima.
- [07:25]
Norah O'Donnell
Jamie, you're so inspiring. Jamie Kern Lima.
- [07:31]
Jamie Kern Lima
Nora o'. Donnell. Welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show.
- [07:34]
Norah O'Donnell
Oh, my goodness. Jamie, thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
- [07:39]
Jamie Kern Lima
You have interviewed every living president, almost every notable figure in the world, all of the world leaders. You're sitting down here for the first time ever in a long form interview where the tables are turned.
- [07:54]
Norah O'Donnell
The tables are turned, Jamie. And I can't think of anybody better to do it with than you. But yes, I mean, I think I'm fearless in many ways in my journalistic career, but I usually ask people questions. Listening is my superpower. I'm not used to answering questions. But I've written this book about women. In addition to all those big interviews I've done in my life, I've also tried to tell the stories of women because I think storytelling is incredibly important. And I do want women and young girls to hear the stories of women who do incredible things and to learn from them and gain inspiration and courage from them. Yeah.
- [08:37]
Jamie Kern Lima
I have to say, when I read we the Women that's out now. Everyone go grab your copy. I am an author and I know how much work goes into creating a book and reading your book, the research that went into this book, but the stories that you selected over 250 years right. Of our country's history. I closed the book. Fired up, feeling more confident than ever in the things I'm willing to take on. Looking at other women who just got back up and kept going or didn't worry that maybe it was too late or they were too old or they were the wrong gender. And just like the things that they've gone through has been so inspiring. And so for you, you are one of only three women in our history to support solo anchor the primetime evening Network News. It's Diane Sawyer, Katie Couric. And you and I know when you were a little girl, you watched Barbara Walters and you said, I want to do that. Nora, what is it about you? Because we're talking about you. What is it about you that went from, you know, growing up, seeing Barbara Walters and maybe feeling a whisper saying, I have that dream to actually making it happen?
- [09:51]
Norah O'Donnell
It's a great question. And one of the things I want young girls to do is believe in their dreams and to have big, big dreams. And don't let anybody crush your dreams because a lot of people try and you know, over time you get rejected. You've talked about it in building your incredible business in your life, and you have to surround yourself with a support system. My mom always told me so that when life gets tough or people doubt you or your own self limiting doubts that you keep pushing forward. And so I think of myself as a little girl. I look back at pictures of myself playing soccer, right wing forward, growing up with two brothers getting dirty and never thinking about all of the things that limit your belief in yourself. And luckily for my parents, they exposed us to the news. We had newspapers around our house. My dad was in the army, I'm a military brat. So certainly we followed what was happening not only at home, but around the world. And so the TV was always on and there was really one woman who was everywhere, interviewing the most powerful people in the world, the 10 most fascinating people in the world. You know, she used to have those specials. And I thought, who is this Barbara Walters? You know, Saturday Night Live used to do skits on Barbara Walters. And you know, I'm a firm believer in that. If you can see it, you can believe it. And I think I looked up to Barbara Walters and just said, wow, wow, she has a front row seat to history. And I want to do that and I want to be that. And somehow, somehow over a very long career and working mostly seven days a week, you know, I did get to sit in the same chair as Walter Cronkite and Katie Couric.
- [11:40]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah. And you've interviewed, I mean, everyone.
- [11:45]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah, I mean, my background really was in covering politics in Washington. You know, I mean, I covered the White House and Covered the Pentagon and covered Congress, traveled the world after the 911 attacks. So I've covered wars and hurricanes, I always say, natural disasters and man made disasters, and then went and anchored the morning show alongside Gayle King and got to do the morning show for seven years, which was really one of the best jobs I've ever had in television because Gail and I used to get ready our makeup ready in the morning together, starting at 5am and then I anchored the evening news for almost six years. So doing the news every single day for 13 years is a lot and an incredible privilege. And so as part of that, you know, I sought the biggest interviews in the world and tried to build a reputation of integrity and trust that led me on this path to being able to meet and interview the most fascinating, powerful people in the world and build trust and respect.
- [12:46]
Jamie Kern Lima
Your eyes just lit up when you said Gayle King.
- [12:50]
Norah O'Donnell
You know her. Is there anybody better?
- [12:53]
Jamie Kern Lima
Can you talk about what that's like to have, like, a genuine friendship where two women, you know, that saying, empowered women, empower women? A lot of people wonder, is it really like that behind the scenes? But your eyes just lit up when you said her name, which is really cool to see.
- [13:06]
Norah O'Donnell
Well, anchoring a morning show is tough. You know, it's tiring. And there's nothing better than sitting at the crack of dawn with Gayle King telling hilarious stories. She has endless energy. But when we anchored the morning show, whenever we had a guest on, or there'd be somebody at the table, some conversation, Gail and I could literally look at each other and communicate without talking. Wow. I mean, that's how much we can sort of read each other's mind on something. And that's like an old friendship, you know, when you can read your friend just by looking at them. And I think what Gail is, is. Is really a best friend. You want to be around people who are like sunshine, whether they're friends or people you work with. And Gail is sunshine. I think it's no coincidence that her favorite color is yellow.
- [13:53]
Jamie Kern Lima
Is yellow.
- [13:54]
Norah O'Donnell
It's like the sun. Yeah.
- [13:55]
Jamie Kern Lima
And she wears that yellow dress, Right? Every year. Anniversary.
- [13:57]
Norah O'Donnell
Yes.
- [13:58]
Jamie Kern Lima
With Barbara Walters. Did you ever get a chance to tell her in person?
- [14:02]
Norah O'Donnell
I did get to tell her in person. And when I took over the evening news, she sent me a note, and it meant a great deal to me because, you know, Barbara Walters did co anchor the evening news at one point early in her career and was doubted. And, you know, she had a tough career, even though we all think of just the incredible career that she had, but she also had a tough, tough times as well. And so when you get a letter from someone who, you know, as an icon that you grew up, it was really meant an incredible. Meant so much to me. And I can remember when she passed away, it was just around, you know, Christmas time and New Year's. And I remember thinking, what a huge loss. But also just how much she inspired me. And I would never. I don't think I've had this opportunity unless Barbara Walters had existed. And so many women have followed in her steps. That also paved the way for. For me to have the career and opportunities that I've had.
- [15:04]
Jamie Kern Lima
What did she say in her letter?
- [15:07]
Norah O'Donnell
You know, I gotta go back and find it. But I think it was sort of. I think it was pretty straightforward, like a congratulations, you have made it, and good luck. Yeah, I remember Oprah called me too, and, well, first of all, she sent those giant roses.
- [15:24]
Jamie Kern Lima
Did she?
- [15:26]
Norah O'Donnell
Oprah sends these roses, you know, they could, like, make up a table. I mean, it's gotta be like a thousand roses or something like this, you know, they're just like nothing you've ever seen in your life, but in only the way that Oprah can speak, as you know, because I know how much you love Oprah, too. She told me and made. Helped me understood what would be my own power. Said, you will be traveling the world telling us at home about the most important stories in the world. And that is power. And when I left the evening news, we talked too, because she said she worked out every day to watch. She's like, I don't know what I'm gonna do. Who am I gonna work out to now? I watch you while I'm working out, watching the evening news. So. But I think that story is important too, because when women support women, great things happen. I actually have that T shirt. I should have worn it today. I should have worn it today. And I do think we need the constant encouragement of our friends and fellow women, and not just privately, but publicly, too. And getting to the top is hard. Getting anywhere is hard. And what women do really well is friendships. And so let's keep doing it privately and publicly, because we certainly need more women in the middle management, upper management in power, to help not only change business, change the world, change legislation, all of it.
- [16:55]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah. You know, I think I love what you just shared about supporting women privately, supporting them publicly. And one of the things I love is, I think even when it's women that we've never met and stories maybe that are from, you Know, this year or 100 years ago, when you read the stories of the women that you are highlighting in your new book, we the Women, I felt like I had all these women that I could lean on because of what they've gone through. And so can you share for everyone listening and watching right now, what inspired you to write we the Women and what did you discover in writing it?
- [17:33]
Norah O'Donnell
Oh, I discovered so much. You know, we the Women began as this way of thinking about America 250. You know, we're celebrating America's 250th birthday and the Declaration of Women. And I thought, well, let me write about all the women that we don't know about. And so to shine a spotlight on women's voices and women's stories. But I had no idea that in researching this book, excavating these stories, that in some ways too, it would unlock something within myself. And, you know, I worked with Kate and Julie and a team of people to sort of put. It was almost three years of excavating these stories. And of course, listening to Taylor Swift while writing, I would lock in with headphones on like a Saturday or Sunday. My husband would check in on me and I would just be like, you know, writing away. But I think what I learned is that as Harriet Beecher Stowe said, women are the great architects of society. They are. And women have been throughout our history a force for positive change in the world, even when they had absolutely no rights. And so I hope that this book too, because we break it up into 50 year parts that you can kind of rediscover history. And also the stories of women are kind of in short little bursts too, so they're great for discussion. And if you're like me, I can only read like 30 pages before I fall asleep. Yeah, yeah. So it's that kind of a book.
- [19:13]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah, I love that. You can also just like open it up to any page and read and all of a sudden you're inspired.
- [19:19]
Norah O'Donnell
Absolutely.
- [19:19]
Jamie Kern Lima
One of those books where it's like, when you get it home, what I plan to do is keep it on my coffee table or give it to every woman in my life. And this is across generations. This is all ages of women. And of course, when you read it cover to cover, it's inspiring. But it's like one of those books too, where if you're just, I need some hope today. I need some strength today. I need some grit today. I need some resilience today. Just like flip it open to any page, read about the woman on that page, and I'm telling you, like it's just, I don't know, it's powerful and these stories are true and they, you know, we're in a time, I think in our country where a lot of us need some hope right now.
- [19:54]
Norah O'Donnell
Agreement.
- [19:54]
Jamie Kern Lima
A lot of us need some hope and to feel like we're not alone in what's happening and just all of it. And so I wanted to ask you, you know, with, with the 250 years that we're talking about, America's birthday, 250 years. What did you learn in particular that maybe you didn't learn in history in school? We need to pause for a super brief break. And while we do, take a moment to share this episode with every single person that you know who this could inspire. Because this conversation can truly be the words and inspiration they need to hear today to keep going, to remember that they matter, and to feel less alone and more enough, more connected, more inspired and more worthy. In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self worth. When you build your self worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy how to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, Worthy is for you. In Worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life changing results. Like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, build unshakable self love, unlearn the lies that lead to self doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness, overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome, achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self doubt and unshakable self worth. Get your copy of Worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you@worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out. With Worthy, who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more. Especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration. Which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week. Just go to jamiekernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie Weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy and love hitting your inbox. I'm your girl. Subscribe@jamiekernlima.com or in the link in the show Notes do you struggle with negative self talk? Living with a constant mental narrative that you're not good enough is exhausting. I know because I spent most of my life in that habit. The words you say to yourself about yourself are so powerful and when you learn to take control over your self talk, it's life changing and I wanted to give you a free resource that I created for you if this is something that could benefit your Life. It's called 5 Ways to Overcome Negative Self Talk and Build self Love. And it's a free how to guide to overcome that negative self talk to build confidence and develop unshakable self love so that you can can dream big and keep going in the pursuit of your goals. Don't let self sabotaging thoughts hinder your progress any longer. It's time to rewrite the script of your life, one filled with self love, resilience and unwavering belief. If you're ready to take charge of your narrative, build unwavering confidence and empower yourself to persevere on the path to your dreams, you can grab your free guide to stop overthinking and learn to Trust yourself at jamiekernlima.com resources or click the link in the show notes below. And now more of this incredible conversation together with the 250 years that we're talking about America's birthday 250 years. What did you learn in particular that maybe you didn't learn in history in school?
- [24:44]
Norah O'Donnell
Well, a lot I didn't know truly about the revolutionary period, you know, and that's because there's been so little study about women, you know, certainly in the founding of America and America's revolution, that really, that field of women's history is really only about 30 years old. And that's because women's stories weren't considered important until just recently. In fact, part of the problem we had is that people didn't save women's letters or women's diaries because women's stories weren't considered important. And that's like my heart kind of hurts saying that. But one of the great stories that we discovered, and we start the book is, is that there's actually a woman's name on the Declaration of Independence. We all say, maybe you've heard, like, sign your John Hancock here, right? And so we know John Hancock's name is on the Declaration of Independence, right? And Adams and all these other founding fathers. But what about the Founding mothers? And it turns out that Mary Katherine Goddard printed the first official Declaration of Independence that has all the signatories on there. And remember, back then, that was an act of treason to put your name on a Declaration of Independence from the British. So she was brave, too, and courageous. And I've never heard that story before. And the National Women's History Museum says that only 15% of what is taught in school focuses on the achievements and the legacy of women in history. So what if, as a young girl, I had learned more about these incredible, brave, courageous women? Would it have changed what I thought about who I could be? Maybe. Would it have? Would it have made me dream of something different? Because I dreamed of Barbara Walters, because I saw her. But what if I had learned about these women who fought at war, who were engaged in politics to the power of their ideas, these scientists and others? What if I had learned about them? Would I also dream of being those women? And so I hope that we can all learn about those women as sort of icons. And because they. We dream learning the stories of other people. That's why we go to the movies, that's why we listen to podcasts, right? We're taking in all of this storytelling and information because it's not just entertainment, it's also learning. And so I want to put more of those women's stories out there in the universe.
- [27:27]
Jamie Kern Lima
So many women that I hear from, and girls, but really women of all ages, all ages talk about how the female fear of rejection or failure or judgment or what other people might think kind of like holds them back from going for things. What did you learn through so many women's stories in we the Women, what did you learn about. About rejection and about how they handled it?
- [27:52]
Norah O'Donnell
Boy, I learned that rejection is universal, and it dates back to the founding of America. And Mary Catherine Goddard, whose name is on the Declaration of Independence, printed the first official broadside, as they call it. She was also the postmaster. She delivered all the mail. She was then fired from her position and replaced by a man. She wrote a letter to George Washington here. She was fired, rejected. She writes to George Washington asking for her job back. The governor of Maryland Wrote. Writes on her behalf, too. And she decries what she calls this extraordinary act of oppression towards her, which historians say may have been the first time that a woman talked about oppression and she never got her job back. But I do think, like, there her name is forged in ink on parchment. You know, she helped give birth to this nation, and we should honor her. But other stories of rejection. I mean, Elizabeth Blackwell was the first woman to graduate from medical school in America. She was rejected from more than 10 medical schools because she was a woman. She only got in as we tell the story in the book. It was a joke that they let her in. Like, literally. They thought it was a joke. She persevered, she graduated, she founded a hospital. And today, if you ask people like my sister, who's A doctor, on February 3rd is National Women's Physicians Day, they get out a cake. Like, if you work with other doctors, they get out a cake, and they celebrate her birthday. And now a majority of graduates of medical school in America are female. So Elizabeth Blackbow was the first, and the men in her class thought she was crazy. But she has inspired countless women and inspires them today. Like, that's awesome. But she faced rejection at every turn. Mm.
- [29:46]
Jamie Kern Lima
So often we think, you know, we get rejected, or we think we get one.
- [29:50]
Norah O'Donnell
No.
- [29:50]
Jamie Kern Lima
Or someone doesn't believe in us, or we try and it doesn't go our way. And after one time or two times or five times, we think like, oh, we don't have what it takes, or we never should have even tried or, you know, any of that. And I think that, you know, one of the reasons I was so passionate about sharing my story of, you know, building a business is because it was like, it looks great in the headlines, but the number of rejections, the number of setbacks, the number of nos. And I remember, after sharing, starting to share that part of my story, the number of people that were just like, you know, I'm inspired to keep going. I'm inspired to get up and try again. I'm inspired to launch that idea or raise my hand at work tomorrow or, you know, whatever it might be, the grit, the tenacity, but the huge setback some of these women have faced. I mean, you know, I know you can't compare despair, but some of us think that there's hard times now. Some of the things these women fought through, dealt with the setbacks, the judgment, the discrimination, the rejection, and they still. They still kept going. What do you think it was Nora for? If you were to pull a through line through a Lot of the women in their stories in here that had them believe they were worthy of continuing fighting for what they believed in or going after what they wanted or putting themselves out there.
- [31:10]
Norah O'Donnell
You know, I love your book Worthy. And I do think, you know, like, rejection is redirection, right? And when one door closes, perhaps another one opens. And I think for myself and others, the first thing about rejection, too, is having friends, family around you that tells you, keep going, right? Building that support system around you to help your own belief system, Right? To keep going. To keep asking. I tell my kids, if you don't ask, you don't get. Just keep asking, right? Keep asking. You just gotta keep going.
- [31:44]
Jamie Kern Lima
I love that.
- [31:45]
Norah O'Donnell
And so there's countless, you know, stories of, as you point out, you know, rejection, but then redirection in a great way. And one of the stories that I tell in the book is of Constance Baker Motley, an incredible civil rights icon. I mean, she was Martin Luther King Jr. S lawyer. I've never heard of her until recently. I mean, you know, Martin Luther King Jr. S famous I have a Dream speech in 1963. Who's standing beside her? Beside him? Constance Baker Motley. She was at litigating almost every major fight of the civil rights movement. She worked under Thurgood Marshall. Everybody knows Thurgood Marshall, right? First black judge on the Supreme Court. She worked with him@ the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. He gets brought to the Supreme Court. Many people thought she should become the head of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. They put another man in that spot. So what does she do? She ends up becoming a New York state senator, then gets appointed to the federal bench. She becomes the first black woman on a federal bench. And then who does she end up inspiring? Ketanji Brown Jackson reads about her as a little girl. And now Ketanji Brown Jackson is on the US Supreme Court. Kamala Harris read about Constance Baker Motley as a little girl. So, you know, I read those stories and thought, how did I not ever learn about Constance Baker Motley when I was growing up? Like, I would have written papers about her. Like, what a great story. I mean, we have a smallish chapter on her, but she deserves dozens of biographies on her and children's books about her. And, you know, but for her, rejection meant redirection, and she wouldn't have made it to the federal bench if she had been able to replace Thurgood Marshall. The NAACP Legal Defense Fund. Or it may have just been a different path.
- [33:47]
Jamie Kern Lima
Wouldn't they even not refer to her by name? Like, in the courtroom. And she'd have to correct people.
- [33:52]
Norah O'Donnell
Yes.
- [33:52]
Jamie Kern Lima
And how do you address her?
- [33:53]
Norah O'Donnell
That's right. Right. When she was defending MLK Jr people couldn't believe that down in the south that a black woman who had a degree from Columbia was there as a lawyer. You know, who's that lady lawyer? As many women in the legal profession have faced. But I mean, there should be a movie about her, right? Yes, yes. Yeah.
- [34:15]
Jamie Kern Lima
Can you talk also just about turning pain into purpose and also perseverance.
- [34:23]
Norah O'Donnell
I think we all know about this in our own life, dealing with pain and certainly feeling the feels, as we say, are good. But then how to turn that into perseverance. And while most of the stories in my book are about hidden heroes, we did write a whole chapter on Eleanor Roosevelt because it's so good. Right. And again, I did learn about Eleanor Roosevelt in school. But talking about turning pain into power and perseverance, I mean, her mother would put her down at parties. Her mother was a celebrated beauty. And when Eleanor Roosevelt would walk into the room as a child, her mother would call her, oh, look, isn't she a funny child, just like granny? And Eleanor Roosevelt said, I would want to sink through the floor. She marries FDR, has six children in 10 years. Then she finds out he's cheating on her with Lucy Mercer. She offers him a divorce. They decide to stay together for his political career. He gets polio. She nurses him through that, helps him run for governor, helps him get elected president of the United States, and then really becomes the most powerful female political figure for 50 years. So talk about turning pain from her childhood. Her parents also died at an early age into perseverance. I mean, I'm giving myself the goosebumps.
- [35:50]
Jamie Kern Lima
I am too, right now. Do you see my arm?
- [35:52]
Norah O'Donnell
I'm like, I'm giving myself. In addition to also having that many children of her own, you know, she invited women into the White House, you know, to advise her president. She had press conferences on her own. She had more than 300 press conferences. She traveled the world during World War II. Eleanor Roosevelt, to meet with troops in all these far flung areas. She lost 30 pounds on a month long trip visiting with soldiers. She was the shadow commander in chief in so many ways. So Eleanor Roosevelt, to me, I mean, I've seen statues of her. And so I think of her as this longest serving first lady in America. But she dealt with a lot of pain and rejection and she persevered. And she wrote newspaper columns and had her own radio show. And she persevered and did great Things for this country. She's a hero of mine, a real hero.
- [36:50]
Jamie Kern Lima
Another hero of yours, Another incredible woman, your grandma, who immigrated from Ireland to the US in the 30s. She boarded a boat all alone to America in a week long boat ride over the Atlantic. Can you talk about your grandma's journey, about her being greeted by the Statue of Liberty?
- [37:12]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah, I talk about my grandma because talk about women who had it really hard. And you know, my grandparents were Catholics growing up in Protestant controlled Northern Ireland. And my grandma, Mary Teresa was the oldest girl of nine kids. And she started working at age 12, you know, walking through barbed wire and barricades to work in a linen factory at age 12. And she never made it past eighth grade, but somehow she was smart enough to know she had to come to America. And so in her early 20s, she boards a boat all by herself. I mean, this is 1930. Like you don't have a cell phone or you don't know where you're going. I mean, and I just think of her and I think, wow. I hope that when she pulled into New York harbor, the first thing she saw there was the Statue of Liberty, you know, a woman holding a torch. And I hope that she thought, oh, I made the right decision, you know, and my grandma worked for many years in a medical facility for people who were mentally ill. And she had a really hard job and a really hard life, but she was, as my mom still says to the day, was really the kindest woman in the world. And I hope that the bravery that brought my grandmother across the Atlantic is also the same bravery that lives in all of the women in this book that persevered and persisted despite doubts and discrimination and just kept going. And that's why I say that women really are the most positive force for change. And that's the message that I want to come out of this is because women rely on community, family, friendships, and can be a very positive force for change.
- [39:14]
Jamie Kern Lima
You say that if you could travel back in time, you'd hold your grandma's hand and tell her it's gonna be okay. Do you ever. Channel's not the right word. Do you ever feel her strength, like through you and to your children?
- [39:31]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah. And it's kind of a thing when you get older, you know, you think of your grandparents and your parents by maybe holidays or. I used to, you know, visit my grandma who lived in Queens, New York, and I remember her house and these little strawberries that she had growing in the back of the little teeny house, but she had little strawberry plants and think of my grandmother like that and just how sweet she was. But when I learned more and more about her story, how brave, how incredibly brave and how hard working. Hard working. I mean my mom tells stories too that sometimes they didn't have enough food growing up. And that changes who you are. You know, that kind of thing changes how you are. So as we say amongst the women I work with, never been a lazy girl, never been a lazy girl, never met a lazy girl. We got it on coffee cups. Yeah. So women are incredibly hard working too. Really hardworking. And you know, that's the other thing I felt about the women in this book.
- [40:38]
Jamie Kern Lima
Like we need to pause for a super brief break. And while we do, take a moment to share this episode with every single person that you know who this could inspire. Because this conversation can truly be the words and inspiration they need to hear today. To keep going, to remember that they matter and to feel less alone and more enough more connected, more inspired and more worthy. Who you spend time around is the so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more. Especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration. Which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox each and every Tuesday morning from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiekernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy and love hitting your inbox. I'm your girl. Subscribe@jamiekernlima.com or in the link in the show notes.
- [42:00]
Norah O'Donnell
I am so excited for this book. You know why? Because it's going to start save so many people. It's gonna say cool. Were the your new beautiful book worthy. Get this book. This book. I'm telling you, it's a book that can change anybody's life. Who picks it up. Anybody who's ever felt that they were not good enough didn't measure up. Something's missing in your life. I have to tell you it's powerful. It's happening. It's worthy.
- [42:32]
Jamie Kern Lima
Imagine what would you do if you fully believed in you. I went from struggling waitress facing non stop rejection to founder of IT Cosmetics, a billion dollar company by learning how to Overcome self doubt and believe I'm worthy of my hopes and dreams. And I'm sharing how you can too in my new book Worthy how to believe you are enough and train transform your life. If you're ready to truly trust yourself and break through that barrier of self doubt and know that where you come from or even where you are right now doesn't determine where you're going, then Worthy is for you. It's time to go from doubting you're enough to knowing you're enough. It's time to step into all of who you are and into the person you were born to be. And it's time to believe that you are worthy of it. Because in life we don't become what we want. We become what we believe we're worthy of. Join the Worthy movement today by grabbing your copy of Worthy Anywhere books are sold. Then head to worthybook.com now for free gifts including my five part course on becoming unstoppable and my 95 page worthy workbook action plan that teaches you how to implement the tools from the book into your real life right now. Worthy is groundbreaking. Yo Worthy, you are worthy. This book is going to change lives. This book literally will teach you how to actually feel worthy so that you can have the strength, you can have the confidence, the lessons in this book and the strategies for will change your life. You will never be the same again after you read this book.
- [44:20]
Norah O'Donnell
Jamie's book Worthy is a must read. It is going to inspire you, empower you, give you the hope that you need and the kick in the rear end that you deserve. Jamie's book Worthy is incredible.
- [44:33]
Jamie Kern Lima
The gifts are going away, but they're all free right now on worthybook.com and now more of this incredible conversation together.
- [44:44]
Norah O'Donnell
Women are incredibly hardworking too. Really hardworking. And you know, that's the other thing I felt about the women in this book. Like some were lucky to be educated. You know, women certainly didn't have the right to go to college, but some were educated, some were not. But all of them were just, I mean in addition to being brave, just really hard workers.
- [45:06]
Jamie Kern Lima
You know, when you talk about your grandma not having a cell phone, right? Being all alone on this week long voyage, going from Ireland to the US and pulling in, you know, and you imagine her seeing the Statue of Liberty. I mean imagine being on a voyage like that and just well I asked.
- [45:28]
Norah O'Donnell
My mother, I'm like how did grandma know where to go?
- [45:30]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [45:31]
Norah O'Donnell
And she was like, you know the story that we told is that they knew the Bradleys and the Bradleys owned a bar. And that when she got through Ellis island, she was just supposed to go to the bar and you just met somebody there and they told you what to do. I mean, I wish when my grandmother was alive. I mean, she died when I was a teenager. I wish I had sat down with her and asked her all these questions. Yeah. I just wish I knew the story. We don't know the story. And that's really what we found. I know so little about my grandmother's life.
- [46:02]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [46:03]
Norah O'Donnell
And sort of the grit and perseverance and that was part of this too, is like trying to excavate these stories of women which are so incredibly important, just not for. Only for American history, but also this, so that we can learn from them.
- [46:17]
Jamie Kern Lima
The power of stories, too. And I'm gonna read this because, believe it or not, a lot of Americans actually don't know this poem that's on the beautiful words of Emma Lazarus that are on the Statue of Liberty. And as I'm reading we the women, I'm imagining your grandma coming over here and you talk about, you know, seeing the Statue of Liberty. I'm gonna read the new Colossus, which is on the plaque of the Statue of Liberty. Here are the words of that. Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame with conquering limbs astride from land to land. Here at our sea washed sunset gates shall stand a mighty woman with a torch whose flame is the imprisoned lightning and her name, Mother of exiles. From her beacon hand glows worldwide welcome. Her mild eyes command the air bridged harbor that twin cities frame. Keep ancient lands your storied pomp, cries she with silent lips. Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these the homeless tempest tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door. When you are reminded of those words, what do you think?
- [47:44]
Norah O'Donnell
Give me your tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to be free. Written by a woman, Emma Lazarus, who, by the way, that poem wouldn't have ended up on the Statue of Liberty if it were not for another friend, another woman who made sure it got on that statue. But I think about it, you know, my own grandmother, an immigrant from Northern Ireland fleeing religious persecution. As a Catholic, my grandfather did not come through Ellis Island. He came through illegally, through Canada, and was a stowaway on a boat, almost kind of like Titanic. My grandfather was one at the bottom of the boat. And so this is a nation built on immigrants. It's built on Irish immigrants. All kinds of immigrants from all over the world. And that's my family, and who were. Who had almost no education, really, my grandparents. And so it's very much imbued in my sense of upbringing because my mom had to work her way to get through, you know, college and get her way to medical school, where she met my dad. And so that was very much a sense of, you have a lot to give back to America. And I hope in some ways, too, I'm giving something back with this book. But I also think, you know, my grandmother, as I write about in the final chapter, just about the arc of history here, my grandmother, Mary Teresa, who never made it past the eighth grade and worked as an orderly, essentially, in a mental hospital. Her name is my sister's name, and my sister, who's 10 years younger than me, and my sister is now the chief surgeon at a hospital. And I wish my grandmother knew that. I think my mom had something to do with it, making sure that her last child had my grandmother's name, but also in feeding all of that love and hope into her daughters. And now my sister spends her days saving people's lives, making their lives better, you know, trying to cure them of cancer. And there's this through line, as you say, and I hope, too, that that's the point of studying these stories, is that maybe you see part of yourself in these women in this book. Maybe you say, oh, maybe that's not what I'm doing right now, but maybe I do want to do that. I'm going to change careers and turn, become this kind of person. Or maybe I'm going to help my children see those stories that they can follow and build their own dreams, it unlocked something new for me. It did.
- [50:47]
Jamie Kern Lima
And thinking of your grandma who immigrated here as an orderly in a mental hospital, like, working so hard for all those years, and then your sister with the same name, he's, like, running things.
- [50:59]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah. Pretty incredible. Yeah. And I do think, you know, too, this is as caregivers. You know, my grandmother was a caregiver, and my sister, as a doctor, is a caregiver. And women are caregivers of our community and the health of our nation. And those words in the Declaration of independence, those 13 words, right, about all men are created equal, which women, of course, men and women are created equal. Right. Those are the most important words in human history. And the whole history of the past 250 years of America has been trying to live up to those ideals in the Declaration of Independence. And I believe women have been at the center of that.
- [51:51]
Jamie Kern Lima
Do you think those words and the promise that's sitting there on the plaque of the Statue of Liberty right now, do you think those words ring true right now?
- [52:03]
Norah O'Donnell
I do. I do. I think America is the greatest country in the world. It's why everybody wants to come to America. There are opportunities in America that don't exist anywhere else. But as a journalist, I know democracy is messy. I also studied philosophy, so I also know democracy can be messy, but that's part of the process, and that's why people have fought and died for the right to vote. And women fought and died. Women were the leaders of the abolitionist movement early on, the leaders of the suffragist movement to make sure that women could get the right to vote. And even when women did get the right to vote with the 19th Amendment in 1920, Black women and Native American or indigenous women didn't have the right to vote. And so the power of the vote, of your vote, of all of our votes is so incredibly important. And, you know, politics can be divisive, but it can also be unifying. And I've, in my. Oh, my gosh. How old am I? I'm 52. So I guess now, you know, 30 years. Thank you. 30 years of covering politics. I've seen it all. I've seen. I've interviewed every living president. I've seen both parties in control. I've been able to interview them because I have the respect and trust on both sides. And you see how engaged Americans are and what happens in not only their communities, other communities. And that drives more and more people to the polls every year. And that's a good thing. Being involved, speaking up is a really good thing. Letting your voice be heard, that's part of the process.
- [53:54]
Jamie Kern Lima
Do you think our elections are still fair?
- [53:56]
Norah O'Donnell
I do, yeah. Yeah, I do.
- [53:59]
Jamie Kern Lima
I'm gonna ask you about your interviews in a minute. And so many of the incredible people you've interviewed, but I want to ask you about what I'm assuming is your favorite man in your life, which is your husband you met while attending Georgetown. You've been married 25 years.
- [54:14]
Norah O'Donnell
That's right.
- [54:15]
Jamie Kern Lima
To Jeff. Jeff.
- [54:17]
Norah O'Donnell
Jeff.
- [54:17]
Jamie Kern Lima
Chef Jeff.
- [54:18]
Norah O'Donnell
Chef Jeff. It happens to rhyme.
- [54:19]
Jamie Kern Lima
Tell us about Jeff.
- [54:21]
Norah O'Donnell
Oh, well, you know, I grew up in San Antonio, Texas, so even though my parents are from New York, I consider myself a Texas girl. And then went to Georgetown University in Washington, D.C. and here I meet this boy, as my friends say, you dating a Yankee. That's what? Growing up in the south, you're dating a Yankee. And you know, I've been with Jeff for so long, and I think the incredible thing about our partnership is, is I married my best friend and someone who has supported me through my career, has been an equal partner in marriage and parenthood, maybe sometimes has done even more than equal. And look, we want to spend our lives with partners who make us better at what we do, make us better parents, make us better people. And that's ultimately, I think, the secret to our long marriage. Plus, he also makes really good bacon and pancakes for breakfast and great dinners and, you know, don't we.
- [55:28]
Jamie Kern Lima
I love a man that can cook. Love a man that can cook.
- [55:31]
Norah O'Donnell
Absolutely. In your day. And he takes the dogs out in the morning so that I can stay in bed. Cause after anchoring a morning show for seven years, I like to luxuriate in bed in the morning. And so I am very grateful for my husband who takes the dogs out in the morning.
- [55:46]
Jamie Kern Lima
That's amazing. And he supports you listening to Taylor Swift while riding Be the women.
- [55:51]
Norah O'Donnell
Of course. Yes. Would bring me coffee. Would bring me coffee. Yes. While I was just typing away. And he read the early copy of the book as well and enjoyed it.
- [56:01]
Jamie Kern Lima
In your Georgetown commencement, you mentioned that he, when you guys were dating in college, he would leave you sticky notes, like post it notes with encouraging words. And he still does that to this day.
- [56:11]
Norah O'Donnell
He does. You know, and isn't that so sweet, too? I mean, and I think about this in life, too. We all need lots of sticky notes of encouragement. And I met a guy who would leave them all over my dorm room. And it's one of been one of the most effective and rewarding parts of my life is learning to write more notes myself to people and letting them know how much I appreciate them and the work that they do. And so I think we all know it, but it goes, should not go without saying again, every time you say thank you to someone in person, whether they're the barista or it's the person at the gas station or a doctor or nurse that looks really busy and is not actually maybe paying too much attention to you while you're standing in line waiting to check in, they deserve a thank you because it goes a long way. And almost every big interview that I've been able to do followed not only the notes of the bookers and producers, but also handwritten notes by myself to people asking for an interview. So Pope Francis was an interview. My dad's name is Francis. And so I wrote to Pope Francis for 10 years hoping for an interview. And it Wasn't until just you know, a few months before we actually got the final interview that with the encouragement of my producer to say, you know, maybe you should be more personal in your note, talk about how you're a mom and you have three kids and that you went to Georgetown and talk about growing up Catholic and being more personal. And so it's just a reminder that writing and I make my kids write handwritten notes, and sometimes it takes them a long time to get it done, but they do it because writing thank you notes and writing notes and asking for what you want, that kind of communication is so incredibly important. One story of Joe Biden, who I knew covering Congress, you know, he was a senator for a long time. I knew his son, Beau Biden, who died in his 40s of brain cancer when Joe Biden was vice president. I wrote the vice president then a handwritten note about Beau's passing and how sorry I was, a condolence note. And I then did the first interview with Vice President Joe Biden and Dr. Biden when he announced that he would not run for president in 2015. That's when then Hillary Clinton ended up running against Donald Trump the first time. And then Donald Trump won his first term in office. And when I got that 60 Minutes interview with Joe Biden where he announced on 60 Minutes in this interview that he was not going to seek the presidency, at the end, I said, thank you so much, Mr. Vice President, for doing the interview with us. He said, I've had your handwritten note on my desk, so if that isn't a reminder. And I wrote him a handwritten note about his son passing. Not, you know, and so personal connection is incredibly important all the time. And I think when we're in this new era of text and emails, that's okay too. But I hope the handwritten note that that old craft that those of us do, that still continues. A handwritten note or a thank you note is still a great thing to do.
- [59:49]
Jamie Kern Lima
You know, I'm reminded when I was building at cosmetics, we were so small, so tiny, no one had heard of us, just scrappy. And I'd seen the then head of l', Oreal, Carol Hamilton, give this big presentation on. She'd just got back from Harvard and she was doing her top 10 all time favorite products at this huge beauty industry event. And I remember I wrote her a handwritten note, told her how much I appreciated her talk. And the only problem with it was that it cosmetics was not on her top 10. And if she actually tried it, she would Love it. And I'd be so honored, like, on and on and on. But I really, you know, thanked her for her talk as well and sent her some products. Fast forward. Gosh, how many years was it, Nora? Several years later, we met for the first time, and then we did meetings and meetings and meetings. And years later, l' Oreal acquired it. Cosmetics. And she kept that note. She kept that handwritten note. And I was just, like, astonished. But I think it's so rare that people take the time and they take the care and they do something personal. So I think that that's really. And it's free. Yes, it's free. We can all do it.
- [60:58]
Norah O'Donnell
Yes.
- [60:58]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [60:59]
Norah O'Donnell
I think there's also something in the handwriting of a note that does something for the person writing the note. You're spending the extra time to get the cursive right so that it looks good. Sometimes I have to go through a couple of versions because my cursive is not that great, but it does something in the person, once again, slowly signaling your intention about what you want. And then the receiver also knows that that means your intention is clear. It's not an email, it's a handwritten note. You really want it, or you're really grateful, or you're really sad about what they have been going through, or you're really celebrating their great new birth of a child or whatever it may be. And so while certainly I can myself be better about writing more handwritten notes, I have lots of handwritten notes that are half written across my desk all the time. Do you? I do. And it usually takes us like to the end of January to get out the Christmas thank you notes. You know, it's still really important. Really, really important.
- [62:15]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [62:16]
Norah O'Donnell
I gotta get your address. So I make sure I send you.
- [62:18]
Jamie Kern Lima
A thank you note. Same, same. But I just cherish, you know, I think I'm thinking just right now, you know, for the first time about this and just. I cherished handwritten things, like, you know, even things my mom wrote out a recipe. My mom's no longer with us. I mean, I cherish what she wrote, like, anything that she wrote.
- [62:35]
Norah O'Donnell
Yes.
- [62:36]
Jamie Kern Lima
I remember the first handwritten note from Oprah. I was like, it's really her signature.
- [62:40]
Norah O'Donnell
It's real. It's real, it's real.
- [62:41]
Jamie Kern Lima
Like, I like something about handwriting.
- [62:44]
Norah O'Donnell
My. And, you know, talking about the. Our feelings and the way we write things. So I am from San Antonio, Texas. I talk to my seven best friends every day. We text each other. We're on a text chain called Texas Peeps. And one of my friends, Allison, she is married to this guy Jason, that I was in love with. In love with. Everybody was in love with him. I mean, he was the guy. And this is in, like, seventh grade. So at our 20th high school reunion, she was like, jason's not here, but he saved the letter you wrote him, like, pouring out your love for him. It is hilarious. But, I mean, I'm so glad that he has it, because it just signals how silly and in love and crazy you are as, like, a seventh grader. And it's awesome.
- [63:30]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yes.
- [63:31]
Norah O'Donnell
And it's this long, big bubble writing on, like, a yellow notepad, paper, and I think, like, purple marker or something, you know?
- [63:40]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [63:41]
Norah O'Donnell
But I love it because it's. I'm like, who's that girl? Who's that teenager who was just so sweet and madly in love with in her seventh grade love kind of way with Jason. Yeah. Who's now married to Alison. I love her.
- [63:56]
Jamie Kern Lima
In your Texas Peeps group. I love this.
- [63:59]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah.
- [63:59]
Jamie Kern Lima
How long have you known this. The other women in that group?
- [64:03]
Norah O'Donnell
My oldest friend is Rebecca. I've known her since before first grade.
- [64:08]
Jamie Kern Lima
Okay. Wow.
- [64:10]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah.
- [64:11]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [64:11]
Norah O'Donnell
And then, you know, some of them for elementary school, and all of them, at least through. Since middle school.
- [64:16]
Jamie Kern Lima
And they've been with you through all this?
- [64:18]
Norah O'Donnell
Through all of it. Yeah.
- [64:20]
Jamie Kern Lima
And you're just like, yeah, just sitting down with another president today. And they're like, yep, that's Nora. Do they just think it's Nora? I mean. Yeah, they love it all.
- [64:28]
Norah O'Donnell
I mean, some of them don't catch everything that's on, you know, TV because they're busy, but we try to get together every couple of years. Actually, the funniest story is I was actually just at. You'll appreciate this story. I don't know if you'll end up using it, but I was actually just at the Kennedy Center Honors, and I turned to my right, and Miranda Lambert is sitting there with her husband, who is the hot cop from New York. And I'm like. I was like, I hope you don't mind me saying this. First of all, Miranda, I'm your biggest fan ever. But Mr. Hot Cop, I was like, you took a picture with me in the Texas Peeps in New York when you were still a cop. And I'm texting my friends, and they send the picture. I'm like, here it is.
- [65:11]
Jamie Kern Lima
Wow.
- [65:12]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah. So good. My. As you. As you can tell, my best friends, they keep the evidence, the pictures. They've got it all.
- [65:20]
Jamie Kern Lima
Oh, my gosh. I Love it. Do they give you feedback on your interviews, like, oh, this or that or whatever? Yeah, they do. And their opinions?
- [65:28]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah, but they're, they're, you know, the great. My Texas peeps friends. They are very faithful, prayerful, positive people. So I don't think they've ever said a negative word in their life. Really, like just even in person, they are just the most loving, amazing people. So it's usually the text chain is just about a lot of positivity, which is awesome. And you know, and as you get older, we all have challenges in our lives, so it's nice to have friends that we send each other. Well, not post it notes, texts of positivity that keep you on.
- [66:03]
Jamie Kern Lima
And you can trust.
- [66:04]
Norah O'Donnell
And you can trust.
- [66:05]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah, because there's that history. You have three children, Grace, Henry and Riley. And you know, thinking about your grandma, your mom, your sister, you. When you think about Grace and Henry and Riley, what do you hope, let's say, someone were to ask them 50 years from now about who their mom is? What do you hope they say?
- [66:35]
Norah O'Donnell
Oh, wow. You know, I wrote in the dedication in this book that it was for my mother and my grandmother and to my daughters to let them know that nothing is impossible. And I hope, you know, my kids will get from me the belief that nothing's impossible and to not let anybody stand in the way of their dreams. Now, this didn't work well when they were toddlers because if you don't ask, you don't get. There was a lot of asking until they got the answer that they wanted. Yeah. So as one Montessori school teacher said to me, you know, I don't negotiate with children. But your daughter, I started to negotiate with her. She was pretty tough.
- [67:25]
Jamie Kern Lima
Were you so proud?
- [67:27]
Norah O'Donnell
I actually was really proud. Yeah. So. But I do hope my husband has a saying. Good manners, good behavior, everything else is fun. So that's kind of. I hope that's the lesson that we've taught them. Be a good person, good manners, good behavior, and then everything else can be fun. And I mean, that's. I know that sounds simple in some ways, but it's sort of like, do the right thing, be kind, take care of one another. You have to do the dishes and take out the trash. And one child is in charge of keeping the refrigerator and the pantry organized. There are rooms, varying degrees of success on that. But, you know, I hope they know that, as I told them on my birthday recently, that I never thought I could love you more than the day you were born, but when you Become adults. It's like a whole nother thing. And I had no idea that my heart could get even bigger. And that's the great thing about parenthood. Sometimes you don't think you could love your kids more, and then just you do. And that's life. That's the journey of life. Can your heart expand? Mm.
- [68:55]
Jamie Kern Lima
Are you proud of them?
- [68:57]
Norah O'Donnell
So proud. And it's the one thing I make sure I tell them every day, I love you. And if I sitting at my desk early in the morning and they're rushing off to school at 7:30, I jump up and say, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I love you and I'm proud of you. You can never say that enough to anybody. I love you and I'm proud of you.
- [69:21]
Jamie Kern Lima
How do they feel about everything that you do professionally? Are you cool or are they just like. I remember Barack Obama just saying his kids are like, whatever, you're president, whatever.
- [69:37]
Norah O'Donnell
You know, I actually think they think it's pretty cool. Yeah, I think they think it's pretty cool. I mean, sometimes I invite them to some things and they don't want to come. And I'm like, I think you should come to that. But the one thing too, is they get older. I mean, they're still 17 and 18, so they're still young. Is that they now follow the news pretty closely. Now, they follow it from different sources perhaps, than what I follow because they're getting a lot more from TikTok and other social media feeds. But I'm glad that they're engaged. And look, I want to introduce them to all kinds of people who do all different kinds of things, you know, not just in the media, but people who are creators and entrepreneurs and artists and people who reach for their dreams. Athletes, you know, great athletes, too.
- [70:35]
Jamie Kern Lima
What keeps you up at night?
- [70:37]
Norah O'Donnell
Almost everything.
- [70:38]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [70:39]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah, I do. I'm a little bit of a worrywart. Maybe undiagnosed anxiety. Yeah, I do. I worry a lot. And I think part of. Honestly, I think most of what I have done is channeled my fear through life. I think it's one of. I think I have. You know, I think my superpower is listening. And then I think I've been able to channel fear, fear of failure. I've channeled it into just studying work. You know, for me, I always say preparation builds confidence, and confidence equals success. And so sometimes I'll work myself into a tizzy preparing, but it gives me confidence. So sometimes I wish I'd worried less.
- [71:33]
Jamie Kern Lima
What do you mostly worry about?
- [71:38]
Norah O'Donnell
I think I'M well, I think lately, you know, I worry about my kids. You know, I worry about their health and safety and, you know, I worry about people's well being. I think for the most part, people are really happy and loving people and care deeply about their community. I think that there is so much information that's now we're intaking. You know, I'd love to go back to the days of just the three powerful networks, abc, NBC and cbs. Right. But now we have multiple sources, which is a good thing. You know, we have multiple sources of information out there, but because there's. We're sort of like sipping from a fire hose of information. Right. Think about that metaphor. It's just coming at us and social media is feeding a lot of that to us. The most disturbing images that is giving a lot of us a great deal of anxiety and concern about what's happening in the world. Now some of that is good to know what's happening in the world because it may cause you to get involved or go out and vote or donate money or change your career or whatever it may be. But some, some of it does become anxiety producing. So we've got to find the right way to modulate that. So lately what I've done recently, because I do worry a lot is I try and read more. I'm trying to do just that, which is to put down the phone and read great books.
- [73:21]
Jamie Kern Lima
I heard about this great book coming out called we the Women.
- [73:24]
Norah O'Donnell
Oh, yeah. Actually, that's what I've been doing actually for three years. I didn't have anxiety writing it, but it certainly, I think, probably kept me busy over the last three years or else I would have been in a major heightened state of anxiety. Yeah.
- [73:37]
Jamie Kern Lima
Can you talk about the role of faith in your life?
- [73:41]
Norah O'Donnell
Yes. I mean, I grew up, I grew up Catholic and went to church every Sunday. I can remember even when I had chickenpox. My father's an infectious disease doctor. He would say, no, you're not infectious. And I'd be like, dad, but I've got all these, like, scars. And he'd be like, it's okay, you can sit in the back, you're not contagious. It's okay. And I can always remember in Sunday school coloring the picture of God with all the little children. And God is for everyone, no matter what. And I don't go to church now as regularly as I did, you know, growing up. But I believe faith is an incredibly important thing that sustains many of us. But for me it's been less about going to church than it's more been the values that I learned growing up, which is love for each and every individual, which is what my parents espouse every day of their life, no matter what, to see people for who they are. My mom has always said it does not matter what is on the outside. It matters what is on the inside. Work on what's on the inside.
- [75:02]
Jamie Kern Lima
Do you feel like, you know, with certainty God is real?
- [75:10]
Norah O'Donnell
It's a good question. I'm not sure that I've explored that. Even though my husband was a theology major, I think my faith is real. I do. And, you know, with my friends, who I text with every day from Texas, we talk a lot about God and faith and send each other prayerful messages. And I know how much that faith sustains me and my friends and would have been some tough times.
- [75:55]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah. I guess if we had absolute certainty, we wouldn't need faith, right?
- [76:00]
Norah O'Donnell
That's right.
- [76:00]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [76:01]
Norah O'Donnell
Yeah. How do you feel about it?
- [76:04]
Jamie Kern Lima
Gosh, I was raised going to church and.
- [76:06]
Norah O'Donnell
Me too.
- [76:07]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah. And, you know, and I used to sit in service and just, like, scan all the pews for cute boys, and none of the. You know, it was all of it. And I. Oh, yeah, I went.
- [76:18]
Norah O'Donnell
Not only did I go to Catholic church, I went to Baptist church camp because that was where. That's where the boys were.
- [76:23]
Jamie Kern Lima
That's where the boys were. And, you know, and then later in life, you know, going to graduate school, living in New York City, and being around people of all different faiths, a lot of people have no faith at all. And a lot of people, I thought, well, if you have really strong faith, you must just not be that smart. And. Yeah, and I started, like. I went through this long season where I was, like, doubting God existed. And it wasn't until someone once said to me, like, what makes you think God can't handle your doubt? Like, why don't you try telling him you doubt him? And just to prove you wrong, you had a shadow of a doubt. So it was a number of years where if I was praying for a friend or their health or whatever was going on, I would end my prayer. Nora. And I would say, and by the way, God, I'm doubting you exist. So if you could please show up and prove me wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt, I'd be so grateful. In Jesus name, amen. I used to literally end my prayers that way. And I could do 10 podcasts. I never have done this, but I could do. I could talk for hours on the Ways that I now have absolute, like, belief. There's so many ways God has shown up in my life, like, where it just is indisputable. I mean, there's so many stories I have now where I'm like, okay, okay, okay. You know, things that have happened, people that have come into my life, people that have favor that has happened in my life, where the person just said to me, listen, I don't even know why I'm doing this, but I felt like God told me I need to do this for you. Just like, it's just been so many stories like that where I'm like, okay, all right.
- [77:58]
Norah O'Donnell
I think what you're describing, too, which is the way I see faith, is it walks alongside you. Some people describe the footprints in the sand or holding your hand. And you asked me kind of about what I worry about. And so a lot of times now, when I wake up in the middle of the night, I say the Lord's Prayer, or now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep, and if I die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take. And I frequently say that at night.
- [78:24]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [78:24]
Norah O'Donnell
And it is almost a form of, well, prayer. It's also a form of meditation and praying for the health of family, friends. All of that is like that person walking alongside you or the faith walking alongside you as a partner in life. That's how I think of kind of my spirituality.
- [78:49]
Jamie Kern Lima
Let's see. I say that same exact prayer. That was the prayer I was taught growing up. Now I lay me down to sleep.
- [78:55]
Norah O'Donnell
I'm saying it. A lot of times. I think I'm falling asleep early. And then when I wake up in the middle of the night, then I say my.
- [79:01]
Jamie Kern Lima
Then you say it. You know, it's funny, my prayer.
- [79:03]
Norah O'Donnell
So as I don't grab my phone.
- [79:08]
Jamie Kern Lima
My toolbox of prayers has expanded a little, like 50 cents. Grandma once said, either pray or worry, but don't do both. I was like, oh, so now when I find myself worrying, I'm like, I just prayed about it. But if I'm still going to worry, it means I'm not trusting God. It means I think I have to carry it all myself. So then I'll, like, literally remember that quote. So, yeah, prayers can come from everywhere.
- [79:32]
Norah O'Donnell
I think one of the interesting things, too, from a journalistic perspective, too, is that, you know, one of the reasons that we're looking at what people view as a lot of division in America is because we are not. We're not associating people who may disagree with our political views anymore, as we did in the past, because less people are going to church. We now see communities where you're living amongst people who are very. Who share the same political philosophy of you as you, or maybe in the same financial bracket as you. They drive the same type of car. We're living in social media where it is feeding us the same set of belief systems back because of an algorithm.
- [80:16]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yes.
- [80:16]
Norah O'Donnell
So I think one of the most important things is, am I exposing myself to people who may believe something differently than me? And shouldn't we be doing that? So being a listener. Right. And realizing that social media is, you know, I like, I like working out. You know, I'm interested in menopause and perimenopause, and I like golf. So I'm getting fed all this stuff because I've clicked on that. Right. I'm not. It's not feeding me any baseball. Right.
- [80:48]
Jamie Kern Lima
You have seen every living US President, world leaders, so many of the world's greatest thought leaders, and most fascinating people firsthand. You've had intimate conversations with them. And, and from your perspective, I'm so curious how you truly feel about this. Do you feel as a country that we're moving in the right direction?
- [81:15]
Norah O'Donnell
I think, Jamie, you're very good at this. I think what we've seen are really close elections the past couple times for a reason. I think we're at probably one of the greatest moments of transition, certainly in my lifetime. And I think it is most exacerbated by financial inequality. So in the book, we talk about abolitionist movement, the suffrage movement, and as predicted by some of the women in this book, the next will be about class struggle. And I think that's what's ultimately in a capitalistic democracy. What we're witnessing right now, a very strong pull between haves and have nots, and a growing wealth chasm in America. And that's what's leading to this deep polarization and deep fear.
- [82:19]
Jamie Kern Lima
James Talarico, who is running for Senate in Texas right now, I heard him say recently, the greatest divide in our country right now is not left versus right, it's top versus bottom. And he's talking about how so few people are controlling almost everything at the top and how that divide's growing. What can everyone do about it right now?
- [82:46]
Norah O'Donnell
Well, it's a good question. I mean, you know, even we saw there was a substantial number of supporters of Bernie Sanders who voted for Donald Trump in the last election. And that's a story about concern over what you just mentioned. So, look, I don't. I'm a journalist, so I don't weigh in on what is my opinion. My job is to get interviews with the toughest people, the toughest people to get interviews with, ask tough but fair and respectful questions, because I believe journalism is what we need to make democracy work. What does that mean? Yeah, we need an electorate that can trust members of the media because it's hard to decipher what's the truth. And I want people to trust me and be able to say, okay, what does Nora say about this issue? What's the debate over health care?
- [83:44]
Jamie Kern Lima
Right.
- [83:44]
Norah O'Donnell
What's happening with health care? That's a real debate. Yeah. What's happening over immigration policy? What's happening with our involvement around the world? I'm from a military family, so I believe there's a free flow of information. I believe there are a set of trusted news sources, and everybody needs to be careful about what are the. Knowing what is a trusted set of news sources and be a consumer of that information in a smart way.
- [84:19]
Jamie Kern Lima
Do you still believe that the First Amendment and freedom of the press is protected?
- [84:28]
Norah O'Donnell
I do. I do. And that is the very First Amendment in the Bill of Rights, amended to the Constitution. The very First Amendment protects the role of the press. And I think about the ability that I have to be able to sit across from whether it's the President of the United States or a foreign leader. I've interviewed presidents, prime ministers, princes, and been able to ask them tough questions, and I still have that ability to do that. Now, is the press, Are people pushing that? Yes. Meaning, are people pushing against that freedom of the press? Yes. People sowing doubt?
- [85:12]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yes.
- [85:16]
Norah O'Donnell
Are journalists under threat sometimes? Yes. And that is a serious, unconscionable thing to do is to threaten someone, no matter who you are. Right. But I am so hopeful, I am, about the state of people still being able to exercise their democratic rights, and I still believe firmly in the job that I'm able to do.
- [85:45]
Jamie Kern Lima
Do you feel that your job is harder now than it was five or ten years ago?
- [85:51]
Norah O'Donnell
Sure, sure. I think everybody probably feels like their job is harder, but I think one of the most important things for me in this environment is my integrity. And I want people to be able to trust me as someone who is fair. And I work at that, you know, And I think that's why I've been able to interview Democratic presidents, Republican presidents, world leaders, who will take the tough questions in a respectful way, but answer the tough questions.
- [86:34]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah. I mean, your career and everything that you've brought to the table the types of interviews you've done with presidents on both sides of the aisle. I mean, it's. You are getting the biggest interviews of anyone in the country right now. I feel like you have the biggest.
- [86:52]
Norah O'Donnell
You're trying. I mean, the Pope was pretty good.
- [86:54]
Jamie Kern Lima
But I mean, the Pope is amazing. But when you look at what's happening, I have to say, too, I think your team's doing a phenomenal job of the clips going viral, too. On top of it, your recent interview with President Trump and that going everywhere. I mean, you're doing the highest profile interviews and you always have. And you are right now in this moment.
- [87:16]
Norah O'Donnell
Well, thank you, Jamie. I really should say, though, that we like to say amongst everybody I work with, teamwork makes the dream work. And none of us do anything alone. And I think we've just over many years worked with a group of people that I have enormous respect for and that work really hard. And if you can build the right team, I think in anything you do in life, whether it's professionally or personally, you know, at home, I say that because I think that's important for working women. And when I say team, like your husband, whether it's whoever's helping you at home, too, like, you can achieve a lot, but nobody can do anything alone ever. There is no, there is no I in team, as they say. Yeah. So. But thank you for saying that. But honestly, we really have. I'm very fortunate to work for CBS News and work with the very best producers. And, you know, sometimes we all take a lot of heat, you know, but I happen to work with some really incredible, incredible people who make our job not only interesting, successful, but also we care deeply about each other.
- [88:34]
Jamie Kern Lima
Well, I have to ask this, and you'll know that better than anyone else. There's so much buzz and the microscope is really on CBS right now in a lot of ways. What can you tell us about that?
- [88:50]
Norah O'Donnell
You know, I have worked at CBS now for, oh, my goodness, probably almost 14 years and have had a great career, whether it was covering the White House, anchoring the morning show, anchoring the evening news, and working for 60 Minutes. We have had a lot of leadership changes at CBS. And that has been challenging not only for me, but I know for my colleagues. And I think with so many leadership changes, people are fearful about what the future means.
- [89:24]
Jamie Kern Lima
This conversation with Nora o' Donnell is so incredible. We made it into more than one part. So if you want to be even more inspired to use your voice, believe you're worthy of it and ignite that passion and courage inside of you on your own hero's journey in your life right now. If you want to add your own toolbox of wisdom and insights from the stories of these incredible hidden heroes who've changed the course of history, well, you are not going to want to miss this incredible part two of our conversation with Nora o'. Donnell. That's coming up in the next episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. Remember, this episode's not just for you and me. Please share this with every single person you know because it can impact and change their life too. And if you love today's episode, please click the Follow or Subscribe button for the show on the app that you're listening to it on or watching it on. And if it added value to your life, if you could, please give it a rating or review. I love a great 5 star review. I would be so, so grateful. And again, share it with everyone you believe in. Maybe it's another person in your life who could benefit from it, or someone you know who's making a change in their career or marriage or health, or just trying to get in touch with their story and the power that's inside of them. Share it with your community online who just might need the words and tools and lessons in this episode today. You never know whose life you're meant to change today by sharing this episode. And thank you so much for joining me today. Before you go, I want to share some words with you that couldn't be more true. You right now, exactly as you are, are enough and fully worthy. You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your wildest dreams and all the unconditional love in the world. And it is an honor to welcome you to each and every episode of the Jamie Kern Lima show here. I hope you'll come as you are and heal where you need, blossom what you choose, journey toward your calling and stay as long as you'd like. Because you belong here. You are worthy, you are loved. You are love and I love you. And I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. In life you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self worth. When you build your self worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, how to believe you are enough and transform your life for you. If you have some self doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, worthy is for you. In Worthy you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life changing results like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, build unshakable self love, unlearn the lies that lead to self doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness, overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome, achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and see Step into the person you were born to be. Imagine a life with zero self doubt and unshakeable self worth. Get your copy of Worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you@worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you'd do if you fully believed in you. It's time to find out. With Worthy, who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self belief. And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration. Which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiekernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one on one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you. If you're tired of hearing the bad news every single day and need some inspiration, some tips, tools, joy and love hitting your inbox. I'm your girl. Subscribe@jamiekernlima.com or in the link in the show notes. And please note, I'm not a licensed therapist and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional.